WEBVTT - I, Libertine

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to Hoax, a production of iHeart Podcasts. Folks,

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<v Speaker 1>it's a hug. No one I haven't seen, when us

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<v Speaker 1>to see the last. Welcome to Hoax, a podcast about

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<v Speaker 1>the lies we wish were true and truths that sound

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<v Speaker 1>like lies. I'm the ghost of Danish Swartz and I'm

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<v Speaker 1>the evil twin of Lizzie Logan. Welcome to the show.

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<v Speaker 2>Dana.

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<v Speaker 1>You're a New York Times best selling author twice over.

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<v Speaker 1>Think yes, thank you. These are fact. These are facts.

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<v Speaker 1>These are just the truth. Can you tell me how

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<v Speaker 1>that happened? Uh?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean it happened that. I just wrote a

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<v Speaker 2>book that called Anatomy, a love story about a girl

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<v Speaker 2>who wants to be a surgeon in nineteenth century Edinburgh,

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<v Speaker 2>because I love like gross stories about surgery and things

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<v Speaker 2>like that and Frankenstein inspired stories. And then I wrote

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<v Speaker 2>this book and then kind of like just the miracle

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<v Speaker 2>of like the editor liked it, the publisher liked it,

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<v Speaker 2>I got a great cover design, which.

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<v Speaker 1>Is a beautiful cover, and it's also a rock and book.

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<v Speaker 1>It's thank you very much.

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<v Speaker 2>And then one day your agent just gives you like

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<v Speaker 2>the best Oh and it was a Reese Witherspoon was

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<v Speaker 2>nice enough to choose it for her book club. The

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<v Speaker 2>first the first one, okay, which like is really nice.

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<v Speaker 2>And then you just get a really nice call from

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<v Speaker 2>an agent one day that says it is number one on.

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<v Speaker 1>The list, amazing, on the YA it was on the

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<v Speaker 1>YA card cover New York Times list, Okay, amazing. And

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<v Speaker 1>then the sequel to that, Mortality, also hit number one.

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<v Speaker 2>Hit number one, another really nice phone call from an agent.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, great? And what is that? Like? I don't want

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<v Speaker 1>to ask you, like, you know, gross numbers, money questions,

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<v Speaker 1>but what is that? Like, you know, for the listener

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<v Speaker 1>at home who has never heard of book, Like, what

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<v Speaker 1>does that mean? Does that just mean like a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of people bought it? Like, does that mean you're rich

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<v Speaker 1>and can retire? No? It does what I mean? What

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<v Speaker 1>does that mean? It does not mean I'm rich and

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<v Speaker 1>can retire.

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<v Speaker 2>It means I mean, honestly, every week for the New

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<v Speaker 2>York Times List, it's like you could have a lucky

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<v Speaker 2>week or an unlucky week, like you could be going

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<v Speaker 2>up against like I don't know what, like the hot

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<v Speaker 2>like Dragon, but the new Hunger Games book, and then

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<v Speaker 2>it's just like you're just not gonna Those are on

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<v Speaker 2>a different level. So I was probably lucky that like,

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<v Speaker 2>no big Ya book was coming out the week I

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<v Speaker 2>was released. I don't ask about numbers because it stresses

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<v Speaker 2>me out. But what it means is a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>country other countries want to publish it because they look

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<v Speaker 2>at the New York Times list. So it's been translated

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<v Speaker 2>a bunch, and it means I get royalties. So yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>it's it's really nice. It's a big ego boost. I

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<v Speaker 2>get to say New York Times bestseller. On everything else

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<v Speaker 2>I write, it's great.

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<v Speaker 1>I yeah, no complaints, done out of ten. Yeah, good experience.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's also like, even if you can still sell

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<v Speaker 1>well and not.

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<v Speaker 2>Make the list, especially for really competitive categories like nonfiction,

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<v Speaker 2>where there's always like some like I don't know a

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<v Speaker 2>diet or like podcastro book like that you'd just be

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<v Speaker 2>going up against, or some like I don't know republican memoir,

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<v Speaker 2>And also like hardcover nonfiction is really hard, so our

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<v Speaker 2>hardcover fiction as well.

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<v Speaker 1>So you can also sell.

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<v Speaker 2>Really well and be you know, a really well received

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<v Speaker 2>book and not make the New York Times Top ten

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<v Speaker 2>just because it was a kind of a fluke of

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<v Speaker 2>a week.

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<v Speaker 1>And also because like if you sold like half that

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<v Speaker 1>many books but like every week, yeah you know what

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, you can be a sleeper hit one really

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<v Speaker 1>good week versus like several pretty good weeks, you could

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<v Speaker 1>actually sell more books. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Like, I truly don't know what the subject of today's

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<v Speaker 2>episode is. So thank you just for letting me have

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<v Speaker 2>this ego boost moment.

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<v Speaker 1>But like the.

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<v Speaker 2>First week that a book is released, it also counts

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<v Speaker 2>pre orders. Yeah, so they can all go into it,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean. And so if you're inclined to want to

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<v Speaker 2>pre order my new book coming out in May, The

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<v Speaker 2>Arcane Arts by sd coverly, which is a fun little pseudonym,

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<v Speaker 2>please please pre order it.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, not to brag. Anatomy stayed on the

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<v Speaker 1>New York Times bestseller list for nine weeks.

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<v Speaker 2>Number I stayed at number one the whole time. Stay

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<v Speaker 2>number one for like for a few weeks at least

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<v Speaker 2>a few weeks. Stayed on the list for a little while.

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<v Speaker 1>And if anyone out there, like can make this happen,

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<v Speaker 1>I still want a movie with Sadie sink Is Hazel.

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<v Speaker 2>I would love that someone someone has bought the rights,

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<v Speaker 2>But if you want to pay them to make the movie.

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<v Speaker 2>That would be fantastic. Sadie Sink would be so good

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<v Speaker 2>as Hazel.

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<v Speaker 1>I just think, I just want that, I just want it.

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<v Speaker 2>Should we just send a copy to Sadie Sink? If

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<v Speaker 2>anyone knows Sadie Sink, let me know.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, so spoiler for I don't know ten minutes

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<v Speaker 1>from now. Today's hoax is about like a book hoax

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<v Speaker 1>that has to do with not strictly the bestseller list,

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<v Speaker 1>but like lists in general.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, I can't wait, And it's a little bit of

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<v Speaker 2>a shorty. People do hoax the New York Times bestseller list.

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<v Speaker 2>They scam it all the time. And if you ever

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<v Speaker 2>are reading the New York Times list and see a

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<v Speaker 2>little dagger next to it, it means bulk bys, which

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<v Speaker 2>is usually like politicians because it means they basically just

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<v Speaker 2>bought a million copies of their own books to like

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<v Speaker 2>sell or give away at like events, So bulk like

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<v Speaker 2>that's like, okay, you're on the list, but like with

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<v Speaker 2>a with a with a dagger.

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<v Speaker 1>With a dagger, which is their little version of an asterisk.

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<v Speaker 1>And also like there are other versions of this where

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<v Speaker 1>you know, if you go to like a book signing.

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<v Speaker 1>A lot of times the ticket to the book signing

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<v Speaker 1>will include the cost of the book and you, so

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<v Speaker 1>it like it forces you to buy it. So even

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<v Speaker 1>if you've already purchased the book, you can't just bring

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<v Speaker 1>your own copy. You have to whatever. So all of

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<v Speaker 1>which is to say, we're going to get to the

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<v Speaker 1>hoax in a second. But I wanted to start with

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<v Speaker 1>talking about your book, which I think very much legitimately

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<v Speaker 1>earned its place on the New York Times Best Selle,

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<v Speaker 1>thank you very much. Then I want to talk about

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<v Speaker 1>one of these dagger scandals that I think is really fun,

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<v Speaker 1>and then we're going to talk about the hoax, just

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<v Speaker 1>because I like talking about all this time.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's a fun the ego boost to get

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<v Speaker 2>to say New York Times bestselling author. So I get

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<v Speaker 2>why people want to scam the system.

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<v Speaker 1>And I also think it's like a little bit of

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<v Speaker 1>a victimless crime because it's like, you know, I'm.

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<v Speaker 2>The victim one, I'm the victim because it dilutes the prestige.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, let's get into it, Okay, Dana, do you remember

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<v Speaker 1>the twenty seventeen handbook for mortals scandal. I don't know

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<v Speaker 1>what this is at all with a author named Lanny Saram.

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<v Speaker 2>The name Handbook for Mortals sounds familiar, but I wouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>be able to say anything else.

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<v Speaker 1>This has been lodged so deep in my brain of

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<v Speaker 1>my like chronically online like I think twenty seventeen was

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<v Speaker 1>the peak of my Twitter addiction, and all of this

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<v Speaker 1>went down on Twitter, and I just I'm so excited

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<v Speaker 1>to have a reason to talk about this, because all

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<v Speaker 1>this knowledge has just been bouncing around in my brain

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<v Speaker 1>for the better part of a decade now, and I'm

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<v Speaker 1>just so glad that we can just talk about it.

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<v Speaker 1>I can't wait. I can't believe I missed literary Twitter drama. Well, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>so it was hya Twitter drama, but it all took

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<v Speaker 1>place over the course of like twenty three hours. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>so at least tell me it was just a nutty

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<v Speaker 1>thing that happened. So in twenty seventeen, there was a

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<v Speaker 1>website called geek Nation. Okay. It was founded by the

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<v Speaker 1>actress Claire Kramer, who you probably would know she played

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<v Speaker 1>Glory on season five of Buffy. Okay, and her husband,

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<v Speaker 1>and it was like not even that popular of a website.

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<v Speaker 1>They announced that they're starting like a publishing arm. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>and they're going to start with this planned five book

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<v Speaker 1>fantasy series by this author Lannie Saram. The first is

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<v Speaker 1>called Handbook for Mortals. Good it's a good name. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I like it. And it's about this like young woman

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<v Speaker 1>who can do magic. She comes from a magical family

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<v Speaker 1>and she like moves to Vegas and is part of

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<v Speaker 1>a Vegas act. I mean it sounds like a good

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<v Speaker 1>ya book. And also they're going to make movies of

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<v Speaker 1>it and she's going to star. She Lannie is going

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<v Speaker 1>to star in the movie what the author huh? And

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<v Speaker 1>it's going to be co produced and co star thomas

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<v Speaker 1>Ian Nicholas, who you would recognize his face. He was

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<v Speaker 1>like in the American Pie movies and he was in

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<v Speaker 1>Rookie of the Year and a kid in King Arthur's Court,

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<v Speaker 1>which is that like Disney movie where.

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<v Speaker 2>He Okay, I see, I see who this this kid is. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I know who he is. I can also picture now

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<v Speaker 2>the cover of the book. Are there cards on it?

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<v Speaker 1>It's a woman who is blindfolded and she's sitting in

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<v Speaker 1>front of a big target. Oh yeah yeah, and there's

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<v Speaker 1>like knives like a throwing ass. Yes, okay, it will

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<v Speaker 1>later come to be revealed that the cover was like

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<v Speaker 1>plagiarized from another piece of art. Sure, yeah, gaya. They

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<v Speaker 1>announced this movie with like a sort of child that

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<v Speaker 1>has been movie star. Yeah, they're like, oh, this guess

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<v Speaker 1>what we're like launching a whole thing. They like, run

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<v Speaker 1>this announcement in the Hollywood Reporter, which doesn't usually comment

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<v Speaker 1>on like publishing news, but somehow they get it in

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<v Speaker 1>the Hollywood Reporter. You can do that. Nobody really takes

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<v Speaker 1>notice until all of a sudden. So this is like

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<v Speaker 1>summer twenty seventeen. Do you remember that book That Hate

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<v Speaker 1>You Give? Yeah, Angie Thomas. Angie Thomas has been at

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<v Speaker 1>the top of the YA bestseller list for I think

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<v Speaker 1>like six months. Yeah it is. It was a rock.

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<v Speaker 1>It was a big, big hit, and everyone's wondering, like,

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<v Speaker 1>what is going to knock The Hate You Give off

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<v Speaker 1>of the top? Yeah, spot And all of a sudden,

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<v Speaker 1>Handbook for Mortals is the number one on the New

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<v Speaker 1>York Times bestseller list. And why a Twitter, which is

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<v Speaker 1>a group of people you don't want to piss off. No,

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<v Speaker 1>please don't be mad at me. Why Twitter? Oh my god,

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<v Speaker 1>Dana innocent never never come for her. They're like, there's

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<v Speaker 1>something little fishy going on here. Yeah, because this is

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<v Speaker 1>an author no one has heard of. This is a

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<v Speaker 1>book no one has heard of. This has a handful

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<v Speaker 1>of Amazon reviews, all of which are five stars, all

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<v Speaker 1>of which look identical.

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<v Speaker 2>And I will also say, okay, so you know how

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<v Speaker 2>you can tell if someone has paid for followers on

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<v Speaker 2>social media if their engagement is super low. You can

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<v Speaker 2>like tell if a book is popular or not by

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<v Speaker 2>like if it has good Reads reviews, if it has

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<v Speaker 2>Amazon reviews. Like also, books come out. It takes so

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<v Speaker 2>long for books to come out that there is like

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<v Speaker 2>hype machines that happens, Like this book that's coming out

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<v Speaker 2>in May, the Rkane Arts is not coming out four months,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was at New York Comic Con in October

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<v Speaker 2>to promote that book. Like that's just a thing coming

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<v Speaker 2>out of nowhere. It happens, but it's.

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<v Speaker 1>Rare, It's very rare, and everyone's like, what is going on.

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<v Speaker 1>It has a handful of Amazon reviews, all five stars,

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<v Speaker 1>all exactly the same, a handful of Goodreads review all

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<v Speaker 1>five stars, all exactly the same. It's listed as out

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<v Speaker 1>of stock on Amazon, and according to Nielsen BookScan, it

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<v Speaker 1>has sold eighteen thousand copies.

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<v Speaker 2>Which is nuts for a random YA book like you

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<v Speaker 2>will hit the New York Times bestseller list on like

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<v Speaker 2>an off week with like four thousand five.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, everyone's like, does anyone else think that's weird? So

0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:08.760
<v Speaker 1>they start they meaning like the denizens of Ya Book Twitter,

0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:15.400
<v Speaker 1>start getting dms from booksellers being like, hey, all this

0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:20.480
<v Speaker 1>past week, we've been getting phone calls from people being like,

0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:24.120
<v Speaker 1>do you report your sales to the New York Times?

0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:29.480
<v Speaker 1>Because the way that the Times collects information it's not

0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:33.080
<v Speaker 1>like that scientific. It's basically like a good faith effort.

0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:38.400
<v Speaker 1>They have a secret list of bookstores that just self

0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:43.760
<v Speaker 1>report what they're selling that week. And they'd been getting

0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:47.160
<v Speaker 1>phone calls being like, hey, are you a Times reporting bookstore,

0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:50.480
<v Speaker 1>And if they answered yes, then the person would be like, Okay,

0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:52.559
<v Speaker 1>We're going to do an author event at your bookstore.

0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:54.520
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to I'd like to place a book order

0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:59.760
<v Speaker 1>for ninety copies, ohbook for mortals. Yeah. So they start

0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:03.080
<v Speaker 1>get dms from different booksellers and they like blow it

0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:09.079
<v Speaker 1>up on Twitter, and then things start getting really bad.

0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:13.520
<v Speaker 1>Just people coming out of the woodwork to like cancel Lannie,

0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:16.840
<v Speaker 1>just being like, so her day job had been that

0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:21.840
<v Speaker 1>she was the tour manager for the band Blues Traveler. Okay,

0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:27.280
<v Speaker 1>and also the actor who played Jasper in Twilight his

0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:31.440
<v Speaker 1>band Oh sure. So Blues Traveler comes out and is like, yeah,

0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:33.120
<v Speaker 1>we had to fire her because she was always doing

0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:37.000
<v Speaker 1>shit like this, And the actor who played Jasper is like, yeah,

0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:40.200
<v Speaker 1>she sucks. Oh my god. Yeah. The artist who did

0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:43.040
<v Speaker 1>the original artwork that the cover was play darized from

0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:44.480
<v Speaker 1>is like, this is really uncool.

0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:47.040
<v Speaker 2>So she was calling these bookstores and like placing these

0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:50.840
<v Speaker 2>orders that like the bookstores, but like presumably people wouldn't

0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:52.600
<v Speaker 2>buy them from the bookstores, right.

0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:56.360
<v Speaker 1>They were offering to like pay the bookstores. Oh they

0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:58.319
<v Speaker 1>were like, well buy it from you. Yeah, like we're

0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:01.800
<v Speaker 1>buying it. Yeah, everything is going wrong. And the fact

0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:05.240
<v Speaker 1>that it was knocking the Hate You Give off of

0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:08.480
<v Speaker 1>the top spot gave this whole thing sort of like

0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:12.320
<v Speaker 1>people are coming for her the hate like a social

0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:13.360
<v Speaker 1>justice way exactly.

0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:15.760
<v Speaker 2>The Hate You Give is a young adult novel about

0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:18.920
<v Speaker 2>a young black woman who sees one of her friends

0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:21.520
<v Speaker 2>killed by the police. Yes, so it is a very

0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:26.520
<v Speaker 2>socially conscious book and to like sort of take it

0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:29.040
<v Speaker 2>down with like a scam would get eyeballs.

0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:31.360
<v Speaker 1>Yes, And I to be very clear, I don't think

0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:35.000
<v Speaker 1>Lanny had anything against or maybe was even aware of

0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:39.080
<v Speaker 1>the hate you give. Yeah, it was entirely about self promotion.

0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:42.760
<v Speaker 1>But the fact that the hate you give was like

0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:46.760
<v Speaker 1>a beloved book that Angie Thomas was also like a

0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:51.400
<v Speaker 1>first time author. It it made people be like, Lannie

0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:57.360
<v Speaker 1>is white entitlement personified, and it's greed and blah blah blah, which, like,

0:14:57.640 --> 0:14:59.800
<v Speaker 1>with a little bit of distance, I find the whole

0:14:59.840 --> 0:15:04.440
<v Speaker 1>thing kind of funny and not necessarily so sinister. But

0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:08.120
<v Speaker 1>at the time people were like, you know, this is

0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:12.680
<v Speaker 1>like real moral bankruptcy, and really they were very very simple.

0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:18.360
<v Speaker 1>People overreacted on Twitter, Dana, You're never gonna believe people

0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:22.560
<v Speaker 1>found a way to make this about morality and not

0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:23.680
<v Speaker 1>just selling books.

0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:27.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, not just like a kind of shitty scam. But

0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:30.000
<v Speaker 2>it's like, I don't think she did it out of racism.

0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:32.920
<v Speaker 1>Who knows, But I wouldn't say that that was the

0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:35.840
<v Speaker 1>primary I wouldn't say that that was like the primary

0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:43.040
<v Speaker 1>driving force. At least part of this scheme, whether she

0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:44.920
<v Speaker 1>knew it or not, was run through a company called

0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:48.760
<v Speaker 1>result Source, which is still around. It's a company that basically,

0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:50.280
<v Speaker 1>if you pay them enough money, they will put you

0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:52.560
<v Speaker 1>on the bestseller list. They will get you that dagger.

0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:56.880
<v Speaker 1>It's like the company that does this, they'll coordinate all

0:15:56.920 --> 0:16:02.120
<v Speaker 1>of the bulk buys. They kind of got in trouble

0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:06.720
<v Speaker 1>a few years ago, not because like listen, if you're

0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:09.640
<v Speaker 1>a CEO and you publish a book about being a

0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:13.080
<v Speaker 1>CEO and you want to get it on the bestseller list,

0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:15.120
<v Speaker 1>and so you do both buys and then you give

0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:20.400
<v Speaker 1>all of your employees a copy of your book. Like whatever,

0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:24.200
<v Speaker 1>it's one week, what happens. Whatever. But they kind of

0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:26.520
<v Speaker 1>got like in a little bit of trouble because also,

0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:30.200
<v Speaker 1>like megachurch pastors would do this and they would use

0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:34.400
<v Speaker 1>like money collected from their congregants to do it, and

0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:39.800
<v Speaker 1>it's like that's actually sort of tax fraud. So Results

0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:42.280
<v Speaker 1>Source has sort of like gone quiet. They used to

0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:44.520
<v Speaker 1>be like, hey, we'll get you on the best seller list,

0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:48.360
<v Speaker 1>and then after that scandal happened, they were like, oh wait,

0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:51.840
<v Speaker 1>we're just like a promote our, We're just a conversation.

0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:54.400
<v Speaker 1>So they kind of tried to hide their involvement in

0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:57.520
<v Speaker 1>this whole Landy Sarum thing, but they were definitely part

0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:02.280
<v Speaker 1>of it. You know, it's not it's the level to

0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:05.480
<v Speaker 1>which it is unethical sort of depends on, like how

0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:09.480
<v Speaker 1>sanctified you believe the New York Times Bestseller list to be.

0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:12.720
<v Speaker 2>Well, I also think it like in the book world,

0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:17.119
<v Speaker 2>there are just systems, like it is hard to sell books, yes,

0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:21.320
<v Speaker 2>book sellers and bookstores, Like it is hard to be

0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:25.199
<v Speaker 2>a bookstore, it is hard to be an author. And

0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:27.240
<v Speaker 2>I do think there are systems in place, like the

0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:31.560
<v Speaker 2>New York Times list does help other bookstores because Okay,

0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:34.240
<v Speaker 2>let's say a different bookstore saw on the New York

0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:37.560
<v Speaker 2>Times bestseller list, like, oh gosh, there's this book that's

0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:40.440
<v Speaker 2>number one that we don't have in stock. They will

0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:44.720
<v Speaker 2>order that book, assuming that people will want to buy it.

0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:50.920
<v Speaker 2>And like bookstores do not have huge margins. So I

0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:53.439
<v Speaker 2>don't think it's like I don't know, don't put her

0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:54.040
<v Speaker 2>in prison.

0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:55.360
<v Speaker 1>But I think it's like a.

0:17:56.960 --> 0:18:00.160
<v Speaker 2>Thing that I can't get behind because I'm like looking

0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:02.919
<v Speaker 2>about books, is we just like love reading books, and

0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:04.800
<v Speaker 2>like it is so hard to make it as an

0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:08.120
<v Speaker 2>author or a bookseller, and like we shouldn't exploit those

0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:11.040
<v Speaker 2>things selfishly, even if it's like it's not a crime.

0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:16.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean it's definitely tacky. What one interesting thing,

0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:19.080
<v Speaker 1>so I read all these articles about this, one interesting

0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:22.400
<v Speaker 1>thing that came out is that like, yes, bookstores run

0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:25.840
<v Speaker 1>on very thin margins. And what one of the booksellers

0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:29.120
<v Speaker 1>said is like, there is if you're a New York

0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:35.159
<v Speaker 1>Times reporting store, there is no reason to take the

0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:39.320
<v Speaker 1>high road. Yeah. If someone calls and says, hey, are

0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:43.240
<v Speaker 1>you a New York Times reporting store, there is no

0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:46.360
<v Speaker 1>reason to be like nope, because if you say yes,

0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:48.840
<v Speaker 1>they're probably going to order ninety books from you, and

0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:51.879
<v Speaker 1>that's a really good sales day. Yeah, and you want

0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:55.400
<v Speaker 1>that sale. I don't blame the bookstores at all. They're like, no,

0:18:56.320 --> 0:19:00.399
<v Speaker 1>this system benefits us. They're like, why would we not

0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:03.360
<v Speaker 1>just be like, yeah, we're a New York Times reporting bookstore.

0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:06.120
<v Speaker 1>Do you want to place a bulk sale like that?

0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:07.840
<v Speaker 1>Do you want to do your author event here so

0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:09.679
<v Speaker 1>that you can place a bulk sale through us and

0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:12.840
<v Speaker 1>not through one of our competitors. They're like, that's the

0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:15.880
<v Speaker 1>difference between a bad sales day and a good sales day.

0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:18.679
<v Speaker 1>So they're like, we're not fighting it. We're not fighting

0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:22.959
<v Speaker 1>this corruption. We want to sell books. We don't care

0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:25.840
<v Speaker 1>if it's for your ego. We want to sell books.

0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:31.640
<v Speaker 1>That's interesting. Lannie has her own explanation, okay, of how

0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:34.280
<v Speaker 1>all of these sales came to be Yeah, which I

0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:39.760
<v Speaker 1>think is far more creative than anything she could possibly write.

0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:44.840
<v Speaker 1>Magic almost What is her explanation? So, first of all,

0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:48.000
<v Speaker 1>she says that she wrote this as a screenplay. Sure,

0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:52.359
<v Speaker 1>then they said, you know, we will fund this screenplay

0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:54.159
<v Speaker 1>if you can turn it into a book, and that

0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:58.800
<v Speaker 1>book hits the bestseller list, And I'm like, honestly, girl,

0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:04.359
<v Speaker 1>Hollywood is so hot, like IP, like cells, that makes sense.

0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:06.880
<v Speaker 1>That makes perfect sense to me, Like that someone would

0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:08.919
<v Speaker 1>tell her that, and that she would be like, Okay,

0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:10.320
<v Speaker 1>how much do I have to spend to get this

0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:12.680
<v Speaker 1>on the bestseller list? I just want to make a movie. Yeah.

0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:14.520
<v Speaker 1>That makes much cheaper to get something on the best

0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:16.320
<v Speaker 1>seller less than just to make a movie. Yeah.

0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:19.439
<v Speaker 2>But also hitting the bestseller list, to be totally honest,

0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:23.520
<v Speaker 2>does not actually make a cute difference with IP. A

0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:25.720
<v Speaker 2>lot of we don't have to get into this, but

0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:27.400
<v Speaker 2>a lot of producers will be like, yeah, I'll buy

0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:30.040
<v Speaker 2>your unpublished short story because then they don't have to

0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:31.719
<v Speaker 2>pay for like rights and stuff whatever.

0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:34.080
<v Speaker 1>But keep going. I'm just saying, I can understand that

0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:37.399
<v Speaker 1>someone would give her this questionable advice and that she

0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:40.679
<v Speaker 1>would believe it. Yes, like it does make sense to me.

0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:47.199
<v Speaker 1>So her explanation is that she and Thomas Ian Nicholas,

0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:51.320
<v Speaker 1>the actor, then the actor, went to a ton of

0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:57.640
<v Speaker 1>conventions like comic cons and fan conventions and like nostalgia conventions,

0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:02.479
<v Speaker 1>and that she would sit at his booth with like

0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:04.959
<v Speaker 1>a I don't even know what materials she had, but

0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:11.119
<v Speaker 1>basically she took pre orders, and she took eighteen thousand

0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:17.760
<v Speaker 1>pre orders wow, for this book. And that then when

0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:21.800
<v Speaker 1>it became when it was like pub week, instead of

0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:25.960
<v Speaker 1>fulfilling those pre orders directly from her publisher, which wouldn't

0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:29.840
<v Speaker 1>have counted in the New York Times system because they

0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:34.280
<v Speaker 1>don't count like direct to consumer sales at conventions, oh,

0:21:34.720 --> 0:21:39.920
<v Speaker 1>she decided to fulfill them through bookstores because she wanted

0:21:39.920 --> 0:21:42.160
<v Speaker 1>to hit the New York Times bestseller list, I mean smart.

0:21:42.359 --> 0:21:45.920
<v Speaker 1>And she's like, I don't understand why that's unethical. These

0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:50.280
<v Speaker 1>were individual sales that I made to individuals who wanted

0:21:50.280 --> 0:21:52.480
<v Speaker 1>to buy my book. I just ran them through the

0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:56.639
<v Speaker 1>system so that they would count. I mean, that is true,

0:21:56.680 --> 0:21:58.600
<v Speaker 1>But why didn't you just say pre order through this

0:21:58.640 --> 0:22:04.119
<v Speaker 1>bookstore because she was standing right there. And also, this

0:22:04.160 --> 0:22:05.320
<v Speaker 1>didn't this didn't happen.

0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:09.000
<v Speaker 2>But again, you cannot pre order through your favorite local bookstore.

0:22:09.040 --> 0:22:11.480
<v Speaker 2>And in fact, if you're listening, I would love for

0:22:11.560 --> 0:22:12.920
<v Speaker 2>you to pre order Lee R.

0:22:13.000 --> 0:22:18.320
<v Speaker 1>Kane, I it's from your favorite local bookstore. I agree. Also,

0:22:18.440 --> 0:22:21.200
<v Speaker 1>so she's basically claiming that she's sold like two thousand

0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:25.000
<v Speaker 1>books per convention. Yeah, that's not George R. R. Martin

0:22:25.119 --> 0:22:28.480
<v Speaker 1>cannot sell more than a few hundred books per convention. Yeah,

0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:31.560
<v Speaker 1>that's that's our explanation is She's like, well, George R. R.

0:22:31.680 --> 0:22:35.240
<v Speaker 1>Martin's an author. I was sitting next to a celebrity. Aha,

0:22:35.720 --> 0:22:38.679
<v Speaker 1>the star of American Pie, the star of American Pie.

0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:41.480
<v Speaker 1>And the reason that all of these people attacked me

0:22:41.640 --> 0:22:44.600
<v Speaker 1>is because I'm not part of their little ya author club.

0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:48.400
<v Speaker 2>No, that's not I'm definitely not in any club, and

0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:50.840
<v Speaker 2>so far, no one, not when no one's attacked me.

0:22:50.880 --> 0:22:55.520
<v Speaker 1>But no, she no, no, that's not that's not accurate.

0:22:55.640 --> 0:22:58.200
<v Speaker 1>And she's like, I'm just a hustler, baby, I mean

0:22:58.440 --> 0:23:01.960
<v Speaker 1>that is accurate. No, no, detected. I think it's like

0:23:02.640 --> 0:23:08.080
<v Speaker 1>so stupid a conclusion of this mini scam before we

0:23:08.080 --> 0:23:10.560
<v Speaker 1>get into the hoax, which no, this is not the

0:23:10.560 --> 0:23:13.280
<v Speaker 1>house right before we get into the hoax. I do

0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:15.760
<v Speaker 1>think I don't want to say others because I don't

0:23:15.760 --> 0:23:18.760
<v Speaker 1>want to get attacked. I think some people can be

0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:22.200
<v Speaker 1>a bit self righteous about things. I also think some

0:23:22.240 --> 0:23:25.280
<v Speaker 1>book communities are very self righteous. I also do think

0:23:25.320 --> 0:23:29.560
<v Speaker 1>like finding liars and canceling them is fun and good

0:23:29.720 --> 0:23:31.960
<v Speaker 1>and like continue to do it, like, yes, that is

0:23:32.000 --> 0:23:32.800
<v Speaker 1>fun and funny.

0:23:32.960 --> 0:23:37.480
<v Speaker 2>Scandals are fun. Cancel culture it happened because piling on

0:23:37.640 --> 0:23:37.960
<v Speaker 2>is fun.

0:23:38.480 --> 0:23:40.919
<v Speaker 1>Like yes, if you find out that someone fake their

0:23:40.920 --> 0:23:43.600
<v Speaker 1>way into a bestseller list, like dig it up and

0:23:43.600 --> 0:23:45.520
<v Speaker 1>call them out, like that's fine. Did she write the

0:23:45.560 --> 0:23:49.960
<v Speaker 1>rest of the five was it five books trilogy? Yeah?

0:23:50.119 --> 0:23:53.800
<v Speaker 1>She The website is still active and you can like

0:23:53.880 --> 0:23:57.800
<v Speaker 1>sup the you can like order a signed copy of

0:23:57.840 --> 0:24:00.199
<v Speaker 1>the book. But it also is like we're releasing the

0:24:00.240 --> 0:24:03.480
<v Speaker 1>movie in twenty nineteen, which, like you know, it came

0:24:03.520 --> 0:24:05.760
<v Speaker 1>and went. But I also think what she I just

0:24:05.760 --> 0:24:07.199
<v Speaker 1>want to say, like I think what she did is

0:24:07.240 --> 0:24:11.159
<v Speaker 1>like a teeny tiny bit punk rock I mean, I

0:24:11.160 --> 0:24:14.199
<v Speaker 1>I will say it's funny. I will also say, like,

0:24:15.040 --> 0:24:19.040
<v Speaker 1>if you don't think that the big publishing houses are

0:24:19.160 --> 0:24:24.400
<v Speaker 1>essentially deciding which books become best sellers, Yeah, Like they

0:24:24.400 --> 0:24:27.919
<v Speaker 1>decide who gets the marketing. They decide who gets like

0:24:28.000 --> 0:24:32.119
<v Speaker 1>the prime spots at you know, Comic Con. They decide

0:24:32.560 --> 0:24:36.159
<v Speaker 1>who gets the celebrity endorsements. Oh, and it says the

0:24:36.200 --> 0:24:38.879
<v Speaker 1>New York Times did remove the book from his ranking,

0:24:39.080 --> 0:24:41.840
<v Speaker 1>so and which she brags about online. She's like, I'm

0:24:41.880 --> 0:24:44.920
<v Speaker 1>the only person who's been removed from the bestseller list.

0:24:45.240 --> 0:24:48.119
<v Speaker 1>Like she's interesting, you can look her up. All of

0:24:48.160 --> 0:24:51.280
<v Speaker 1>which is to say, like, if you think that just

0:24:51.400 --> 0:24:54.520
<v Speaker 1>because they don't have a dagger next to them, that

0:24:54.560 --> 0:24:58.080
<v Speaker 1>they're on the best seller list because of pure talent

0:24:58.320 --> 0:25:02.800
<v Speaker 1>and purely the strain of the book, that is not

0:25:02.840 --> 0:25:03.840
<v Speaker 1>necessarily true.

0:25:03.920 --> 0:25:07.080
<v Speaker 2>Can I also say I googled this and I did

0:25:07.119 --> 0:25:10.040
<v Speaker 2>get an excerpt from the first chapter.

0:25:10.440 --> 0:25:14.480
<v Speaker 1>Can I radio a sentence? Absolutely? Apparently the pros is

0:25:14.520 --> 0:25:16.080
<v Speaker 1>not good. Quote.

0:25:16.359 --> 0:25:19.280
<v Speaker 2>People tell me I'm pretty all the time, beautiful, even

0:25:19.640 --> 0:25:21.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure I see what they see. I think

0:25:22.000 --> 0:25:24.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm more of a cute, average looking girl. I'm slender,

0:25:24.920 --> 0:25:27.439
<v Speaker 2>but I do not believe most would say skinny, not

0:25:27.680 --> 0:25:30.359
<v Speaker 2>hot girl, skinny. At least I have long legs that

0:25:30.400 --> 0:25:32.879
<v Speaker 2>are toned. But I think my thighs are too large

0:25:32.880 --> 0:25:35.160
<v Speaker 2>and I do not have a thigh gap. My arms

0:25:35.160 --> 0:25:37.120
<v Speaker 2>are kind of flabby, and while I do have an

0:25:37.119 --> 0:25:40.520
<v Speaker 2>hour glass figure I have, I've always felt that my

0:25:40.560 --> 0:25:43.080
<v Speaker 2>butt is a little too big and my face is

0:25:43.119 --> 0:25:44.240
<v Speaker 2>a little bit too round.

0:25:45.000 --> 0:25:48.600
<v Speaker 1>Listen, I've tried to read some of the stuff that

0:25:48.640 --> 0:25:51.280
<v Speaker 1>book talk promotes and it is not that much better.

0:25:52.800 --> 0:25:56.280
<v Speaker 1>I'm not going to name names. Also say, you know,

0:25:56.600 --> 0:25:59.800
<v Speaker 1>like we all just need to take lists less seriously.

0:26:00.040 --> 0:26:03.320
<v Speaker 1>Tailor you're more pro Lannie than I am. I'm not.

0:26:03.359 --> 0:26:04.720
<v Speaker 1>I'm prone coming out.

0:26:04.840 --> 0:26:06.520
<v Speaker 2>I want to be on the record as I think

0:26:06.560 --> 0:26:08.320
<v Speaker 2>this is like a little icky, all of it.

0:26:08.400 --> 0:26:10.639
<v Speaker 1>I think it's a little ichy. But I just think

0:26:10.840 --> 0:26:14.359
<v Speaker 1>like people are always jumping down Taylor Swift's throat for

0:26:14.480 --> 0:26:18.120
<v Speaker 1>like selling different vinyls because she's trying to like manipulate

0:26:18.320 --> 0:26:19.320
<v Speaker 1>the But no, no.

0:26:19.280 --> 0:26:21.879
<v Speaker 2>Here's the difference. You know what the deal is with Taylor

0:26:21.880 --> 0:26:26.160
<v Speaker 2>Swift vinyls. People are buying them. Human beings who want

0:26:26.160 --> 0:26:27.800
<v Speaker 2>those vinyls are buying them.

0:26:28.040 --> 0:26:30.560
<v Speaker 1>Taylor Swift gets to do whatever I means. Taylor Swift

0:26:30.800 --> 0:26:33.520
<v Speaker 1>supposedly her dad bought all the copies of her first album.

0:26:33.560 --> 0:26:36.840
<v Speaker 2>But okay, fine, we'll talk about that.

0:26:37.119 --> 0:26:38.960
<v Speaker 1>Which you know what I would do for my daughter

0:26:39.000 --> 0:26:41.000
<v Speaker 1>if I had the money and she wanted to be

0:26:41.040 --> 0:26:43.919
<v Speaker 1>a country star. Should we talk about the actual hoax?

0:26:44.040 --> 0:26:48.000
<v Speaker 1>Let's get into that, okay. So the reason that I

0:26:48.040 --> 0:26:52.919
<v Speaker 1>wanted to talk about Lanny Saram is because this hoax

0:26:53.080 --> 0:26:55.119
<v Speaker 1>has to do not strictly with the New York Times

0:26:55.119 --> 0:26:59.120
<v Speaker 1>bestseller List, but with just books and lists in general.

0:26:59.440 --> 0:27:01.800
<v Speaker 1>And so I thought it would be fun to talk

0:27:01.800 --> 0:27:06.879
<v Speaker 1>about how goofy these lists are and have always been great.

0:27:07.480 --> 0:27:11.440
<v Speaker 1>Do you know who Jeene Shepherd is? Now? Should I know?

0:27:11.640 --> 0:27:13.199
<v Speaker 1>But I thought it would be funny to show that

0:27:13.359 --> 0:27:16.119
<v Speaker 1>there's someone who you don't know who they are. I

0:27:16.160 --> 0:27:19.240
<v Speaker 1>didn't until I started researching this. Jean Shepherd was a

0:27:19.320 --> 0:27:22.240
<v Speaker 1>radio host who started his career in the Army Signal

0:27:22.280 --> 0:27:23.400
<v Speaker 1>Corps during World War Two.

0:27:24.200 --> 0:27:26.440
<v Speaker 2>He moved through oh I am I am behind at

0:27:26.480 --> 0:27:28.960
<v Speaker 2>my World War Two radio hosts.

0:27:30.800 --> 0:27:34.200
<v Speaker 1>Okay, he does more. He was like a cult comedian. Basically,

0:27:35.440 --> 0:27:38.639
<v Speaker 1>he landed in New York at the station WO R

0:27:38.920 --> 0:27:44.320
<v Speaker 1>in the mid fifties, and his shtick was that he talked.

0:27:44.760 --> 0:27:47.280
<v Speaker 1>He was basically like one of the fathers of talk radio.

0:27:47.840 --> 0:27:51.639
<v Speaker 1>He was always getting fired for not playing enough music

0:27:51.680 --> 0:27:55.240
<v Speaker 1>and for just talking. Yeah, he would take calls, but

0:27:55.400 --> 0:27:58.320
<v Speaker 1>usually he would take them like during ad breaks to

0:27:59.000 --> 0:28:03.479
<v Speaker 1>get people's back and talk through like different concepts, and

0:28:03.560 --> 0:28:07.000
<v Speaker 1>he would just expound on the topics of the day,

0:28:07.160 --> 0:28:12.720
<v Speaker 1>whatever was on his mind. The original podcaster. Truly, he

0:28:12.800 --> 0:28:16.719
<v Speaker 1>would have thrived in the age of the podcast. Like

0:28:18.240 --> 0:28:20.119
<v Speaker 1>I have this written down here. He was way ahead

0:28:20.119 --> 0:28:23.320
<v Speaker 1>of his time. He should have been a podcaster. He

0:28:23.600 --> 0:28:29.280
<v Speaker 1>was a storyteller. He was very funny. He was like

0:28:29.760 --> 0:28:35.240
<v Speaker 1>anti establishment, but he was in a gentle, folksy Midwestern way.

0:28:35.400 --> 0:28:39.720
<v Speaker 1>He was not like crude or sexual, but he was

0:28:39.840 --> 0:28:43.400
<v Speaker 1>very smart and he would just sort of This was

0:28:43.440 --> 0:28:47.280
<v Speaker 1>like the era of the monologue. So like if you picture,

0:28:47.720 --> 0:28:50.360
<v Speaker 1>you know, Lenny Bruce is downtown just kind of like

0:28:50.440 --> 0:28:53.880
<v Speaker 1>spouting off, and you have Mortsaul the comedian. He would

0:28:53.960 --> 0:28:56.320
<v Speaker 1>just get up on stage and open the newspaper and

0:28:56.400 --> 0:28:59.920
<v Speaker 1>just talk about whatever was in the newspaper. So he's

0:29:00.040 --> 0:29:02.920
<v Speaker 1>the guy on the radio doing that. He wouldn't write

0:29:02.960 --> 0:29:06.200
<v Speaker 1>things down beforehand. He would just talk about whatever, whatever

0:29:06.280 --> 0:29:10.440
<v Speaker 1>was on his mind. He's doing jazz talk, literally freeform jazz.

0:29:10.960 --> 0:29:13.000
<v Speaker 1>This is like the era of Nichols in May. So

0:29:13.040 --> 0:29:16.360
<v Speaker 1>it's like it's cool to be smart, and it's also

0:29:16.400 --> 0:29:20.880
<v Speaker 1>a very buttoned up time. People are so square and

0:29:20.920 --> 0:29:26.720
<v Speaker 1>he's hip. He's downtown. He's not exactly edgy, but he's

0:29:27.520 --> 0:29:30.880
<v Speaker 1>talking to you adult to adult. Yeah, and he's funny.

0:29:31.400 --> 0:29:34.680
<v Speaker 1>I see why he's a hit. He's not quite a hit. Okay, well,

0:29:34.720 --> 0:29:36.840
<v Speaker 1>I see why he has an audience. Man, he's a

0:29:36.880 --> 0:29:41.920
<v Speaker 1>cult hit, cult hit. He is sort of like early

0:29:42.000 --> 0:29:44.960
<v Speaker 1>days Mark Marin Yeah, or a Dave von Wrong. And

0:29:45.000 --> 0:29:47.760
<v Speaker 1>he's like you know, you know, if you know, you know,

0:29:48.040 --> 0:29:51.640
<v Speaker 1>he's like the comics comic he's like the guy's guy.

0:29:52.760 --> 0:29:56.400
<v Speaker 1>And a lot of the stories that he tells, uh

0:29:56.440 --> 0:29:59.680
<v Speaker 1>are not true because he would run out of true

0:29:59.720 --> 0:30:02.280
<v Speaker 1>story from his childhood, so he would just make them up.

0:30:03.400 --> 0:30:06.200
<v Speaker 1>Stand up comedy. Da, do you ever just lie for fun?

0:30:06.680 --> 0:30:09.160
<v Speaker 2>I do not, But my husband is a stand up comedian.

0:30:09.360 --> 0:30:13.320
<v Speaker 2>And I know for a fact that sometimes sometimes when

0:30:13.320 --> 0:30:16.280
<v Speaker 2>comedians say I was on the way here today and

0:30:16.520 --> 0:30:19.360
<v Speaker 2>you'll never guess what happened, I hate to tell you

0:30:19.400 --> 0:30:21.959
<v Speaker 2>but that it did not happen on the way there today,

0:30:22.440 --> 0:30:28.240
<v Speaker 2>maybe a something tangential related to that thing happened at

0:30:28.280 --> 0:30:30.520
<v Speaker 2>some point in their life. Yeah, but that is how

0:30:30.560 --> 0:30:31.520
<v Speaker 2>stand up comedy goes.

0:30:31.680 --> 0:30:34.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I used to enter when I was in middle school.

0:30:34.640 --> 0:30:37.360
<v Speaker 1>I would enter speech and debate competitions under the name

0:30:37.440 --> 0:30:42.320
<v Speaker 1>Jasmine Mahogany, your porn star name. Yeah. I thought it

0:30:42.360 --> 0:30:45.680
<v Speaker 1>was really funny. I was like, oh, my parents were hippies.

0:30:46.320 --> 0:30:49.640
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you lived in San Francisco, it's not implausible.

0:30:50.000 --> 0:30:54.360
<v Speaker 1>And then I remember one night in high school it

0:30:54.400 --> 0:30:56.680
<v Speaker 1>was like me and my friends went out to pizza

0:30:56.960 --> 0:30:59.320
<v Speaker 1>and we met these guys and we were like, let's

0:30:59.320 --> 0:31:01.120
<v Speaker 1>just lie to them, Like, let's just lie to them

0:31:01.120 --> 0:31:01.880
<v Speaker 1>about who we are.

0:31:02.200 --> 0:31:04.640
<v Speaker 2>One time, a friend and I were lying at a

0:31:04.640 --> 0:31:07.640
<v Speaker 2>show and pretended to have bad British accents and then

0:31:08.040 --> 0:31:10.200
<v Speaker 2>like our cover was like, oh, we grew up, like

0:31:10.880 --> 0:31:13.000
<v Speaker 2>we know, our accents are weird, Like we traveled a

0:31:13.000 --> 0:31:14.840
<v Speaker 2>lot when we were kids, so our accents are like,

0:31:15.320 --> 0:31:17.080
<v Speaker 2>you know, from Hodgepodge, blah blah blah.

0:31:17.120 --> 0:31:18.760
<v Speaker 1>And I was just like, I don't know. Yeah, I

0:31:18.800 --> 0:31:21.360
<v Speaker 1>told this guy that because we had just like found

0:31:21.360 --> 0:31:23.840
<v Speaker 1>out we had just gotten into colleges, and we were like,

0:31:23.920 --> 0:31:26.280
<v Speaker 1>let's just lie about where we're going to college. And

0:31:26.320 --> 0:31:28.320
<v Speaker 1>then when they got to me, I was like, oh,

0:31:28.400 --> 0:31:31.960
<v Speaker 1>I've been homeschooled because I'm like training for the Olympics.

0:31:32.240 --> 0:31:36.080
<v Speaker 1>That's a cool eye. What's part I think gymnastics okay,

0:31:36.080 --> 0:31:38.720
<v Speaker 1>which I very too tall, but if you've ever seen me,

0:31:38.920 --> 0:31:41.680
<v Speaker 1>also just not athletic. But he didn't know.

0:31:41.880 --> 0:31:47.040
<v Speaker 2>No men famously stupid. Yeah, and also like that was

0:31:47.080 --> 0:31:48.640
<v Speaker 2>a joke to his carman get mad.

0:31:48.840 --> 0:31:51.360
<v Speaker 1>To his credit, it would be very wrong for a

0:31:51.400 --> 0:31:54.240
<v Speaker 1>man to be like, you clearly don't work out that much.

0:31:55.160 --> 0:31:57.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, that would be rude. I also will say

0:31:57.840 --> 0:32:01.080
<v Speaker 2>I get nervous lying because the thought of anyone being

0:32:01.120 --> 0:32:03.719
<v Speaker 2>mad at me at any time stresses me out. And

0:32:03.760 --> 0:32:07.040
<v Speaker 2>so if I lie, then the thought is that at

0:32:07.080 --> 0:32:09.000
<v Speaker 2>some point someone might say to you, hey, that was

0:32:09.040 --> 0:32:12.000
<v Speaker 2>a lie, and then I would I think, break out

0:32:12.040 --> 0:32:15.360
<v Speaker 2>in hithes and dissolve onto the floor. So the thought

0:32:15.440 --> 0:32:18.920
<v Speaker 2>of that, the lying is fun, I think in theory,

0:32:19.240 --> 0:32:23.080
<v Speaker 2>but the thought of anyone confronting me really terrifies me.

0:32:23.320 --> 0:32:27.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, Later on Shepherd would say like, oh, I

0:32:27.880 --> 0:32:31.200
<v Speaker 1>was just telling stories that I thought of and I

0:32:31.320 --> 0:32:33.720
<v Speaker 1>just said them in the first person, but I didn't

0:32:33.720 --> 0:32:36.520
<v Speaker 1>think for anyone to think that they had happened to me,

0:32:36.600 --> 0:32:37.160
<v Speaker 1>which is like.

0:32:37.080 --> 0:32:40.320
<v Speaker 2>But if that like format hasn't been formalized yet, people

0:32:41.040 --> 0:32:44.560
<v Speaker 2>listen to it and assume it is true because he's not, like,

0:32:45.480 --> 0:32:47.720
<v Speaker 2>he's not doing it like this American lifestyle.

0:32:48.320 --> 0:32:50.080
<v Speaker 1>No one got mad though, Okay, that's what I'm trying

0:32:50.080 --> 0:32:54.040
<v Speaker 1>to get. Oh great, it's just like you have no idea,

0:32:54.240 --> 0:32:56.280
<v Speaker 1>Like people would go back later and be like, we

0:32:56.320 --> 0:32:59.080
<v Speaker 1>have no idea what his childhood was at because half

0:32:59.080 --> 0:33:01.640
<v Speaker 1>the shit couldn't have happen. Oh so this isn't the Haks. Yeah,

0:33:01.880 --> 0:33:04.400
<v Speaker 1>oh wow, I must always trying to establish that he's

0:33:04.440 --> 0:33:13.440
<v Speaker 1>kind of a liar, okay, right, So he starts being

0:33:13.520 --> 0:33:17.320
<v Speaker 1>on in the afternoon, but eventually they move him to

0:33:17.440 --> 0:33:21.960
<v Speaker 1>the middle of the night because he keeps telling these

0:33:22.080 --> 0:33:24.560
<v Speaker 1>goofy stories and he won't play any music. Sure, he's

0:33:24.600 --> 0:33:27.760
<v Speaker 1>on from one am to five thirty am, sure the

0:33:27.800 --> 0:33:32.600
<v Speaker 1>real Nighthawk hours, the real night hours, and he's by himself,

0:33:32.680 --> 0:33:35.400
<v Speaker 1>and they don't want to pay to keep the studio

0:33:35.640 --> 0:33:40.280
<v Speaker 1>in Manhattan open, so he's up in Jersey broadcasting directly

0:33:40.320 --> 0:33:44.000
<v Speaker 1>from the transmitter. Okay, so which is like really hot.

0:33:44.080 --> 0:33:46.400
<v Speaker 1>It's just like a big machine. So he's sitting there

0:33:46.480 --> 0:33:52.040
<v Speaker 1>just in his like underwear, just talking into a microphone

0:33:52.080 --> 0:33:55.200
<v Speaker 1>for four and a half hours. Amazing. Yeah, and it

0:33:55.240 --> 0:33:57.240
<v Speaker 1>gets very intimate and like when you were talking about

0:33:57.280 --> 0:34:01.480
<v Speaker 1>like cult following, like truly just like the Cult of

0:34:01.600 --> 0:34:01.960
<v Speaker 1>Jane show.

0:34:02.080 --> 0:34:03.720
<v Speaker 2>I mean, yeah, if you know, you know, it's a

0:34:03.760 --> 0:34:05.920
<v Speaker 2>guy at one in the morning in his underwear just

0:34:05.960 --> 0:34:06.520
<v Speaker 2>talking to.

0:34:06.480 --> 0:34:10.400
<v Speaker 1>You, just free flow letting it into the mic. And

0:34:10.440 --> 0:34:14.319
<v Speaker 1>he calls his listeners the night people. That makes sense.

0:34:14.400 --> 0:34:16.399
<v Speaker 2>And also I think part of the cult thing if

0:34:16.400 --> 0:34:19.520
<v Speaker 2>I just hearing it, like radio at this time is ephemeral,

0:34:19.640 --> 0:34:23.000
<v Speaker 2>like maybe they might record it, you know sometimes for

0:34:23.040 --> 0:34:24.760
<v Speaker 2>some things, but like not always.

0:34:25.160 --> 0:34:27.920
<v Speaker 1>No, And we have a number of his shows recorded

0:34:28.120 --> 0:34:30.839
<v Speaker 1>from fans, yeah, because they really liked him and they

0:34:30.840 --> 0:34:35.080
<v Speaker 1>wanted to record it. So if you're a night person,

0:34:35.719 --> 0:34:39.200
<v Speaker 1>it's not just that you work at night, it's actually

0:34:39.320 --> 0:34:43.319
<v Speaker 1>you are like activated by the night. It's that, you know,

0:34:43.560 --> 0:34:47.560
<v Speaker 1>day people are the ones who the daytime is their

0:34:47.640 --> 0:34:52.319
<v Speaker 1>real life, like going into the office and obeying by

0:34:52.360 --> 0:34:56.480
<v Speaker 1>society's rules. That's that they buy into that. They're like,

0:34:57.160 --> 0:35:00.279
<v Speaker 1>they focus on that and they believe in it. Not

0:35:00.360 --> 0:35:02.359
<v Speaker 1>the night people. The night people are up because they're

0:35:02.400 --> 0:35:06.440
<v Speaker 1>doing something creative. They might have an office job, but

0:35:06.520 --> 0:35:08.800
<v Speaker 1>they know that that's just what they got to get through.

0:35:09.040 --> 0:35:11.359
<v Speaker 1>That's the dream, and the night is the real life.

0:35:11.400 --> 0:35:14.600
<v Speaker 1>The night's the real life. It's very severance, it's very

0:35:14.680 --> 0:35:17.440
<v Speaker 1>the matrix. But it's not in like a creepy way.

0:35:17.760 --> 0:35:22.040
<v Speaker 1>Like he's a smart, grounded guy. He's just like guys

0:35:22.040 --> 0:35:22.840
<v Speaker 1>were the night people.

0:35:22.960 --> 0:35:25.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I bet that they would have, like you said,

0:35:25.640 --> 0:35:26.279
<v Speaker 2>ahead of their time.

0:35:26.280 --> 0:35:28.759
<v Speaker 1>I bet they would have had a great subreddit. Oh,

0:35:28.840 --> 0:35:32.719
<v Speaker 1>they would be absolutely the subreddit. And you know this

0:35:32.840 --> 0:35:35.359
<v Speaker 1>is also like not a you know, it's about like

0:35:35.600 --> 0:35:39.280
<v Speaker 1>the BEATNICKX versus the Squares. Yeah, so we're the night people.

0:35:39.520 --> 0:35:45.560
<v Speaker 1>Day people have something that he called creeping meatballism, which

0:35:45.560 --> 0:35:48.360
<v Speaker 1>is basically what he called conformity, but which is such

0:35:48.440 --> 0:35:50.919
<v Speaker 1>a good term that I really wanted to come back.

0:35:51.480 --> 0:35:53.839
<v Speaker 1>I feel like I know a few people with creeping meatballism.

0:35:53.960 --> 0:35:56.680
<v Speaker 1>Creeping meatballism is so good we can't really get into it,

0:35:56.719 --> 0:35:59.319
<v Speaker 1>but he wrote articles about it, and it's just so good.

0:36:00.080 --> 0:36:01.960
<v Speaker 1>He's got a really offbeat sense of humor, and his

0:36:02.000 --> 0:36:08.600
<v Speaker 1>catchphrase is excelsior, you fat head. He sounds funny. He's

0:36:08.640 --> 0:36:12.200
<v Speaker 1>really funny. He likes to do a little pranks. He

0:36:12.320 --> 0:36:14.759
<v Speaker 1>likes to tell his listeners to stick their radios in

0:36:14.800 --> 0:36:17.040
<v Speaker 1>the window and turn it up as loud as they

0:36:17.080 --> 0:36:21.600
<v Speaker 1>possibly can, and then he'll put music on. His show

0:36:21.760 --> 0:36:23.839
<v Speaker 1>is on the verge of getting canceled because it can't

0:36:23.840 --> 0:36:27.719
<v Speaker 1>attract sponsors. So he starts just like talking about this

0:36:27.760 --> 0:36:29.960
<v Speaker 1>one brand of soap that he really likes, and they

0:36:29.960 --> 0:36:32.680
<v Speaker 1>immediately cut him off and they're like, hey, that soap

0:36:32.719 --> 0:36:35.160
<v Speaker 1>doesn't sponsor your show, Like you can't just talk about it,

0:36:35.160 --> 0:36:36.640
<v Speaker 1>And he's like, I'm trying to prove that I can

0:36:36.680 --> 0:36:41.400
<v Speaker 1>sell stuff. I didn't think anyone would be mad. Apparently

0:36:41.440 --> 0:36:44.240
<v Speaker 1>he actually did help sell a lot of Miller High Life.

0:36:44.280 --> 0:36:46.839
<v Speaker 1>So if you're a fan of Miller High Life, thank

0:36:46.920 --> 0:36:50.279
<v Speaker 1>Gene Shepherd. He kept that brand around all right. Now

0:36:50.280 --> 0:36:52.160
<v Speaker 1>we're getting to the host that was all just stuff

0:36:52.200 --> 0:36:56.600
<v Speaker 1>about Gene Shepherd. In April nineteen fifty six, Shepherd goes

0:36:56.640 --> 0:37:02.239
<v Speaker 1>into a bookstore related related to get a book of

0:37:02.320 --> 0:37:05.839
<v Speaker 1>transcripts of one of his favorite old radio shows, Vic

0:37:05.920 --> 0:37:10.520
<v Speaker 1>and sade, and the bookseller is like, not only do

0:37:10.640 --> 0:37:13.560
<v Speaker 1>we not have that book, I'm looking at the publisher's

0:37:13.640 --> 0:37:17.000
<v Speaker 1>list and that book doesn't exist. Mm. So he's like

0:37:17.080 --> 0:37:22.680
<v Speaker 1>gaslighting him. And Shepherd's like, no, like I know this

0:37:22.840 --> 0:37:26.239
<v Speaker 1>book exists, Like what do you mean you can't just

0:37:26.239 --> 0:37:29.400
<v Speaker 1>like help me find this book. And the bookseller's like, nope,

0:37:29.480 --> 0:37:32.000
<v Speaker 1>it's not on the list, so it doesn't exist. And

0:37:32.040 --> 0:37:35.440
<v Speaker 1>he's like, man, these fucking day people with their lists,

0:37:35.480 --> 0:37:38.160
<v Speaker 1>with their list, these fucking day people with their lists,

0:37:38.640 --> 0:37:42.920
<v Speaker 1>Like he's goddamn squares in these bookstores. And he's like,

0:37:43.080 --> 0:37:46.000
<v Speaker 1>this whole town runs on lists. You think just because

0:37:46.000 --> 0:37:48.239
<v Speaker 1>it's on a list, it's got to be real, and

0:37:48.280 --> 0:37:50.759
<v Speaker 1>if it's not on the list, it's not real. And

0:37:50.840 --> 0:37:53.719
<v Speaker 1>I mean, as someone who like always does check like

0:37:54.400 --> 0:37:57.640
<v Speaker 1>infatuation lists for restaurants, I'm like, I do get it

0:37:57.640 --> 0:37:59.640
<v Speaker 1>where I do have this thing where I'm like, if

0:37:59.640 --> 0:38:02.080
<v Speaker 1>it's not on a list, that means it's not good, right,

0:38:02.160 --> 0:38:04.839
<v Speaker 1>and like we're just put all this but and he's like,

0:38:04.960 --> 0:38:08.600
<v Speaker 1>you know, lists are made by people, and people make mistakes, true,

0:38:08.680 --> 0:38:11.160
<v Speaker 1>and you can't just look at me and believe me

0:38:11.640 --> 0:38:15.000
<v Speaker 1>that this book exists I'm a human, right, Like, isn't

0:38:15.040 --> 0:38:16.560
<v Speaker 1>it possible that I'm right and the list is wrong

0:38:16.560 --> 0:38:18.279
<v Speaker 1>because the list was made by a person. Person can

0:38:18.320 --> 0:38:21.640
<v Speaker 1>be wrong. Yeah, So he's like, you know what, we

0:38:22.440 --> 0:38:24.319
<v Speaker 1>got a little prank. Let's do Let's do a prank.

0:38:24.360 --> 0:38:27.279
<v Speaker 1>Let's do a prank. So he tells all of his

0:38:28.000 --> 0:38:30.840
<v Speaker 1>night People listeners. He's like, we're gonna make up a

0:38:30.840 --> 0:38:34.319
<v Speaker 1>fake book. And no one's paying attention because it's two

0:38:34.400 --> 0:38:37.319
<v Speaker 1>in the morning, it's the middle of the night. And

0:38:37.400 --> 0:38:40.040
<v Speaker 1>he gets them all to call in and write in

0:38:40.200 --> 0:38:44.080
<v Speaker 1>with names of like fake authors and fake books, and

0:38:44.239 --> 0:38:47.759
<v Speaker 1>he compiles what he thinks is the best, uh, the

0:38:47.800 --> 0:38:50.560
<v Speaker 1>best one, and they decide that their fake book is

0:38:50.560 --> 0:38:54.719
<v Speaker 1>called I Libertine and it's written by a man named

0:38:54.760 --> 0:38:59.440
<v Speaker 1>Frederick R. Ewing That sounds plausible. A former British commander

0:38:59.520 --> 0:39:02.920
<v Speaker 1>and civil servant in Rhodesia. He is known for his

0:39:03.040 --> 0:39:08.759
<v Speaker 1>BBC broadcasts on eighteenth century erotica. And he is like, Okay, everybody,

0:39:08.800 --> 0:39:13.080
<v Speaker 1>go into your local bookstore and ask for I Libertine. Yeah,

0:39:13.160 --> 0:39:17.040
<v Speaker 1>and if and is published by Excelsior, And so if

0:39:17.040 --> 0:39:20.560
<v Speaker 1>anybody asks who's the publisher, you say, Excelsior you fat head.

0:39:21.800 --> 0:39:25.240
<v Speaker 1>That's funny, and people do hundreds of people do great.

0:39:25.920 --> 0:39:29.320
<v Speaker 1>And also because he is on in the middle of

0:39:29.360 --> 0:39:31.840
<v Speaker 1>the night, a lot of like flight attendants listen to

0:39:31.880 --> 0:39:35.560
<v Speaker 1>him because they have crazy hours. So this this prank

0:39:35.600 --> 0:39:40.160
<v Speaker 1>goes international amazing, and all of these booksellers are like,

0:39:40.320 --> 0:39:43.200
<v Speaker 1>what is going on. I've never heard of this book.

0:39:43.200 --> 0:39:45.319
<v Speaker 1>They're calling each other, They're like, what's going on, what's

0:39:45.360 --> 0:39:48.840
<v Speaker 1>going on? And people start writing in and calling in

0:39:49.040 --> 0:39:52.799
<v Speaker 1>with like the results of the prank. Apparently, I mean,

0:39:52.880 --> 0:39:55.000
<v Speaker 1>all of this can't be confirmed, and I'm sure people

0:39:55.040 --> 0:39:56.799
<v Speaker 1>are making stuff up to make it seem like the

0:39:56.800 --> 0:39:59.360
<v Speaker 1>prank was bigger than it was. But these are the

0:39:59.440 --> 0:40:04.799
<v Speaker 1>reports of how big the prank got. Apparently some bookseller

0:40:04.840 --> 0:40:07.719
<v Speaker 1>who wanted to seem very in the know was like,

0:40:08.719 --> 0:40:11.879
<v Speaker 1>I'm so glad Americans are catching on to Frederick Ewing's work.

0:40:12.160 --> 0:40:16.040
<v Speaker 2>Aha, that is actually very plausible, very plausible.

0:40:15.600 --> 0:40:21.040
<v Speaker 1>Right, And some editor is overheart some gossip columnist overhears

0:40:21.080 --> 0:40:23.799
<v Speaker 1>an editor saying like, oh, yes, I was having lunch

0:40:23.800 --> 0:40:29.160
<v Speaker 1>with Frederick Ewing last week. It's like those videos that

0:40:29.320 --> 0:40:32.240
<v Speaker 1>people used to make where it was like people pretending

0:40:32.239 --> 0:40:35.000
<v Speaker 1>that they'd heard of really obscure bands that didn't exist

0:40:35.120 --> 0:40:35.760
<v Speaker 1>at Coachella.

0:40:36.239 --> 0:40:38.640
<v Speaker 2>And again, this is like an era like pre Internet,

0:40:38.680 --> 0:40:41.279
<v Speaker 2>where you can't quite fact check these things, where so

0:40:41.400 --> 0:40:43.560
<v Speaker 2>much of the literary world at this time is like

0:40:43.760 --> 0:40:44.839
<v Speaker 2>word of mouth.

0:40:44.600 --> 0:40:47.120
<v Speaker 1>And well what's cool. So it's like, yeah, these people

0:40:47.160 --> 0:40:50.359
<v Speaker 1>want to be cool. College students are turning in book

0:40:50.400 --> 0:40:53.320
<v Speaker 1>reports on I Libertine and they're like getting good grades

0:40:53.400 --> 0:40:55.880
<v Speaker 1>on that. The professor can't google it. Not what's're gonna do.

0:40:57.920 --> 0:41:02.560
<v Speaker 1>There's a listener in boss who uh works for the

0:41:02.680 --> 0:41:05.920
<v Speaker 1>archdiocese and puts it on a list of banned books,

0:41:06.160 --> 0:41:09.359
<v Speaker 1>and then the entire city of Boston bans it. It's

0:41:09.400 --> 0:41:11.600
<v Speaker 1>not really like a secret because again he's like doing

0:41:11.680 --> 0:41:13.560
<v Speaker 1>this on the radio. Yeah it's the middle of the night,

0:41:13.560 --> 0:41:17.520
<v Speaker 1>but it's still the radio. By August, first, the prank

0:41:17.680 --> 0:41:21.200
<v Speaker 1>is over. He talks to the Wall Street Journal for

0:41:21.239 --> 0:41:26.399
<v Speaker 1>an interview. He explains the whole thing, and everyone is

0:41:26.560 --> 0:41:29.880
<v Speaker 1>calling the powers that be at w R. They're like,

0:41:30.400 --> 0:41:32.920
<v Speaker 1>this is a great story. Tell us more like it's

0:41:32.960 --> 0:41:35.080
<v Speaker 1>a big hit and thinks he's really funny for doing this.

0:41:35.160 --> 0:41:37.200
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know what, it's a it's a I think,

0:41:37.239 --> 0:41:41.480
<v Speaker 2>actually a great hoax because it's like inclusive, like the

0:41:41.640 --> 0:41:43.800
<v Speaker 2>night people who got to listen, like got to feel

0:41:43.800 --> 0:41:45.759
<v Speaker 2>like part of a club. Everyone got to be in

0:41:45.840 --> 0:41:46.440
<v Speaker 2>on the joke.

0:41:46.960 --> 0:41:50.040
<v Speaker 1>They're in on the joke. And it's also like, you know,

0:41:50.080 --> 0:41:52.680
<v Speaker 1>it's showing that, like you day, people aren't smarter than

0:41:52.719 --> 0:41:56.279
<v Speaker 1>anybody else. If we tell you something's real, you'll believe us.

0:41:56.520 --> 0:41:59.200
<v Speaker 1>It's this is this is a delightful hoax and I

0:41:59.239 --> 0:42:04.800
<v Speaker 1>love it. So glad Ian Valentine, the publisher Valentine Books

0:42:04.800 --> 0:42:08.359
<v Speaker 1>from Valentine Books, gets wind of it, and he's like, well,

0:42:08.360 --> 0:42:10.560
<v Speaker 1>if a bunch of people want a book called I Libertine,

0:42:10.640 --> 0:42:13.400
<v Speaker 1>let's give him a book called I Libertine. That's pretty smart.

0:42:13.719 --> 0:42:17.279
<v Speaker 1>And it's unclear who got who in touch with who,

0:42:17.840 --> 0:42:23.920
<v Speaker 1>but Ballentine, his wife, a sci fi writer named Theodore Sturgeon,

0:42:24.640 --> 0:42:28.839
<v Speaker 1>and Shepherd all get together and they write a book.

0:42:29.480 --> 0:42:32.320
<v Speaker 1>I'm glad Shepherd was involved in this. He was involved

0:42:32.560 --> 0:42:35.160
<v Speaker 1>kind of barely. Well, I hope he made a little money,

0:42:35.400 --> 0:42:38.080
<v Speaker 1>but he got some money. There's at least one report

0:42:38.120 --> 0:42:40.759
<v Speaker 1>that said the money went to charity. But all right,

0:42:40.800 --> 0:42:44.400
<v Speaker 1>he had it was not without his consents. He was involved,

0:42:44.680 --> 0:42:47.280
<v Speaker 1>and they write a book about an eighteenth century duchess

0:42:48.640 --> 0:42:55.000
<v Speaker 1>called I Libertine, and they publish it and they have

0:42:55.080 --> 0:42:57.000
<v Speaker 1>like a little meetup of the night people where he

0:42:57.040 --> 0:43:00.120
<v Speaker 1>signs copies. That's so fun. Din know what you like

0:43:00.160 --> 0:43:02.520
<v Speaker 1>to read a passage from I Liberty? I really would

0:43:02.960 --> 0:43:05.799
<v Speaker 1>loo kind of your computer. Yes, so I got through

0:43:05.840 --> 0:43:08.960
<v Speaker 1>the first two chapters. You know, it's it's a silly book.

0:43:09.480 --> 0:43:14.400
<v Speaker 1>I selected a passage in which this carriage driver is

0:43:15.280 --> 0:43:20.440
<v Speaker 1>talking to his like lord, is this a sexy book? Yeah?

0:43:20.480 --> 0:43:25.080
<v Speaker 1>But not really. It's like fake sexy. A carriage driver

0:43:25.239 --> 0:43:29.879
<v Speaker 1>is talking to his lord. And I thought it would

0:43:29.920 --> 0:43:34.839
<v Speaker 1>be funny to hear because it's written with like a

0:43:34.880 --> 0:43:38.200
<v Speaker 1>really harsh accent, right, And I thought it would be

0:43:38.200 --> 0:43:39.040
<v Speaker 1>funny to make you do.

0:43:39.040 --> 0:43:43.080
<v Speaker 2>It, given then I had faked a British accent. Okay,

0:43:43.520 --> 0:43:44.520
<v Speaker 2>I have to read this whole thing.

0:43:45.600 --> 0:43:49.839
<v Speaker 1>I think you should. And a pity Piggott aimed his

0:43:49.840 --> 0:43:53.680
<v Speaker 1>whip handle at the young man's broadcloth. England and Prussia

0:43:53.760 --> 0:43:57.960
<v Speaker 1>rule the ruddy world, this ruddy Domino seventeen hundred and

0:43:58.080 --> 0:44:02.200
<v Speaker 1>sixty nine sixty nine, he orated. And those that rule

0:44:02.239 --> 0:44:06.280
<v Speaker 1>the world take the orders of their ostlers, aye their valets,

0:44:06.280 --> 0:44:08.960
<v Speaker 1>and their maids of ruddy honor. They do what they're

0:44:08.960 --> 0:44:12.280
<v Speaker 1>told they do because their servants always know what's happening,

0:44:12.560 --> 0:44:15.360
<v Speaker 1>and they can't know till they're told. Like our ruddy

0:44:15.440 --> 0:44:18.440
<v Speaker 1>great General wanting to know what's happening over the ale,

0:44:18.880 --> 0:44:22.680
<v Speaker 1>he could ask is Batman, and likely he does. Otherwise

0:44:22.719 --> 0:44:26.480
<v Speaker 1>it's someone else is Batman who finds out or to

0:44:26.520 --> 0:44:29.560
<v Speaker 1>go all the way down the line we already asked

0:44:29.640 --> 0:44:33.680
<v Speaker 1>grenadier who finally sticks his head over and eats grape

0:44:33.719 --> 0:44:37.120
<v Speaker 1>shot for his breakfast. And ooh's more of a servant

0:44:37.320 --> 0:44:41.840
<v Speaker 1>than anybody's ruddy foot soldier. I'd like to know, while.

0:44:41.600 --> 0:44:45.520
<v Speaker 2>You're about learning your airs and graces, my lad, never

0:44:45.600 --> 0:44:48.000
<v Speaker 2>forget to leave an ear in the scullery, and be

0:44:48.120 --> 0:44:50.400
<v Speaker 2>grateful to whoever keeps the wax out of it.

0:44:50.480 --> 0:44:53.960
<v Speaker 1>For ye, what were we talking about? You were making

0:44:54.040 --> 0:44:58.840
<v Speaker 1>some libelous remarks about miss Chudley. Now, Lad, twas slander

0:44:59.000 --> 0:45:02.000
<v Speaker 1>the old man. Correct.

0:45:02.000 --> 0:45:04.920
<v Speaker 2>That's funny, and it also embodies the idea of the

0:45:05.000 --> 0:45:06.240
<v Speaker 2>night people and the day people.

0:45:06.400 --> 0:45:07.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, all the.

0:45:07.280 --> 0:45:10.160
<v Speaker 2>Day people with their fancy airs, But the people who

0:45:10.239 --> 0:45:13.280
<v Speaker 2>really know the stuff are the you know, the footman

0:45:13.360 --> 0:45:14.279
<v Speaker 2>and Batman and.

0:45:14.840 --> 0:45:17.080
<v Speaker 1>And they know the difference between libel and slander. They

0:45:17.120 --> 0:45:21.680
<v Speaker 1>do know the difference between lebel and slander. Yeah, just

0:45:21.719 --> 0:45:24.600
<v Speaker 1>to wrap up what happened to Jeane Shephard, he did

0:45:24.600 --> 0:45:29.400
<v Speaker 1>not stay broadcasting in the night forever. He was eventually

0:45:29.600 --> 0:45:34.600
<v Speaker 1>taken back to the daytime. He wrote for the Village Voice,

0:45:34.800 --> 0:45:38.200
<v Speaker 1>and he wrote a lot of his childhood stories up

0:45:38.280 --> 0:45:41.960
<v Speaker 1>for Playboy. His like fun fake childhood stories. Yeah, his

0:45:42.160 --> 0:45:45.360
<v Speaker 1>you know, exaggerated. He's I mean, I hope this is

0:45:45.440 --> 0:45:50.400
<v Speaker 1>like not bursting anyone's bubble. David Sedaris is an exaggerator.

0:45:50.520 --> 0:45:54.239
<v Speaker 1>I think he's sort of in that tradition. He published

0:45:54.400 --> 0:45:58.719
<v Speaker 1>a group of them in nineteen sixty six as a

0:45:58.800 --> 0:46:02.080
<v Speaker 1>novel called In God We Trust All Others Pay Cash,

0:46:02.440 --> 0:46:04.840
<v Speaker 1>And in nineteen eighty three it was turned into a

0:46:04.880 --> 0:46:09.400
<v Speaker 1>movie called a Christmas Story. Wow what Yeah, And he

0:46:09.520 --> 0:46:12.320
<v Speaker 1>is the narrator of that movie. So you have heard

0:46:12.400 --> 0:46:15.239
<v Speaker 1>Jean Shepherd's voice, Lizzie Logan, what a twist at the

0:46:15.320 --> 0:46:16.120
<v Speaker 1>end of this episode.

0:46:16.239 --> 0:46:19.000
<v Speaker 2>Indeed, In God We Trust All Others Pay Cash is

0:46:19.080 --> 0:46:19.600
<v Speaker 2>very funny.

0:46:19.760 --> 0:46:24.200
<v Speaker 1>It's good. He died in nineteen ninety nine, Oh my god.

0:46:24.280 --> 0:46:29.880
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, he's the great American comic voice you have

0:46:30.040 --> 0:46:33.640
<v Speaker 1>heard but never heard of. That's that's a great hoax.

0:46:33.800 --> 0:46:36.360
<v Speaker 1>And this was the This was the funny little I

0:46:36.480 --> 0:46:39.160
<v Speaker 1>Libertine hoax that he perpetrated. I love it.

0:46:39.239 --> 0:46:42.920
<v Speaker 2>I like a little feeling like you're part of a club. Yeah,

0:46:43.120 --> 0:46:45.520
<v Speaker 2>even though I go to bed at nine o'clock every night,

0:46:45.800 --> 0:46:48.480
<v Speaker 2>so I'm not a night person and I buy my

0:46:48.600 --> 0:46:52.760
<v Speaker 2>clothes from Nord's rooms. I'm like, there's nothing night person

0:46:52.800 --> 0:46:55.200
<v Speaker 2>about me. But I'm like, yeah, stick it to the man.

0:46:55.680 --> 0:46:58.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we're not very hip, but you're hip. You're from

0:46:58.840 --> 0:47:04.799
<v Speaker 1>San Francisco. I am so hip. You know. I think

0:47:04.840 --> 0:47:08.400
<v Speaker 1>we're smart and we're not. We're not total meatballs.

0:47:08.440 --> 0:47:11.640
<v Speaker 2>We're not total meatballs. Well, Lizzie Logan, where can the

0:47:11.800 --> 0:47:12.719
<v Speaker 2>night People find you?

0:47:13.280 --> 0:47:16.520
<v Speaker 1>The night people can find me? Post on all about

0:47:16.640 --> 0:47:20.960
<v Speaker 1>this podcast at hoax the Podcast on Instagram, Dana where

0:47:20.960 --> 0:47:22.279
<v Speaker 1>can the People find you?

0:47:22.640 --> 0:47:26.399
<v Speaker 2>Uh find me at at Dana Schwartz with three z's

0:47:26.440 --> 0:47:29.640
<v Speaker 2>at the end on Instagram and TikTok, and you can

0:47:29.840 --> 0:47:33.720
<v Speaker 2>email me at Hoaxthpodcast at gmail dot com.

0:47:33.800 --> 0:47:35.120
<v Speaker 1>I do read those emails.

0:47:35.320 --> 0:47:39.160
<v Speaker 2>Indeed, Please if you're enjoying the show, UH leave a

0:47:39.360 --> 0:47:40.880
<v Speaker 2>leave a rating, leave, leave a re you.

0:47:41.040 --> 0:47:43.319
<v Speaker 1>We want to get up on those podcast lists. I

0:47:43.400 --> 0:47:47.120
<v Speaker 1>know we're we're gluttons for the charts part of them

0:47:47.160 --> 0:47:49.400
<v Speaker 1>for so much of this episode, but now I'm like,

0:47:49.640 --> 0:47:52.200
<v Speaker 1>but I want to be your best silly podcast.

0:47:52.239 --> 0:47:54.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, make us a best selling podcast. Listen to the show,

0:47:55.320 --> 0:47:56.880
<v Speaker 2>send it to your friends.

0:47:56.600 --> 0:47:58.960
<v Speaker 1>Bulk by the podcast, just send.

0:47:58.760 --> 0:48:03.759
<v Speaker 2>It to everyone, Make multiple email addresses to leave multiple reviews.

0:48:03.480 --> 0:48:08.720
<v Speaker 1>Juice the numbers, scam us to the top, and as always,

0:48:09.280 --> 0:48:24.359
<v Speaker 1>please hoax responsibly by Hoax is a production of iHeart Podcasts.

0:48:24.760 --> 0:48:27.920
<v Speaker 1>Our hosts are Danish Schortz and Lizzie Logan. Our executive

0:48:27.960 --> 0:48:31.560
<v Speaker 1>producers are Matt Frederick and Trevor Young, with supervising producer

0:48:31.719 --> 0:48:35.440
<v Speaker 1>Rima L. K Ali and producers Nomes Griffin and Jesse Funk.

0:48:35.960 --> 0:48:39.279
<v Speaker 1>Our theme music was composed by Laine Montgomery. For more

0:48:39.320 --> 0:48:43.200
<v Speaker 1>podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

0:48:43.200 --> 0:48:45.840
<v Speaker 1>wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening.