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Speaker 1: In tonight's classic episode, fellow conspiracy realist Your Boys hit

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Speaker 1: the Road, joined with one of our close close friends,

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Speaker 1: the host of many shows including Stuffy Missed in History Class,

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Speaker 1: Holly Fry.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, in the beautiful Saint Mark's Theater in the I

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Speaker 2: believe the East Village the Westville is one of the

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Speaker 2: villages in New York City talking about some true crime stuff.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's about Hell's kitchen, right, It's like the

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Speaker 3: history of the area there in New York and this

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Speaker 3: particular person that was kind of scary but mostly a

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Speaker 3: super effective fence and a.

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Speaker 4: Bit of a historical deep cut.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And also, although I don't believe we get to it

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Speaker 1: in this live show. What we love about Hell's kitchen,

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Speaker 1: or at least what I love is that it implies

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Speaker 1: the idea of other infernal rooms in a house. Where's

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Speaker 1: Hell's bathroom? You know what I mean? Does Hell have

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Speaker 1: a foyer?

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Speaker 4: Hell's boudoirs?

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Speaker 3: But it's also like, what does it get in a kitchen?

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Speaker 3: It gets hot? So this is the hot part of Hell.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what's Hell's washroom?

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Speaker 4: Like?

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Speaker 1: Oh boy?

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Speaker 4: Uh?

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Speaker 1: So we get into everything except for that. In tonight's exploration.

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Speaker 5: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 5: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 5: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 5: production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works.

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Speaker 3: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

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Speaker 3: my name is not They call me Ben.

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Speaker 1: This is our super producer, Paul Mission Control Decan, who

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Speaker 1: is with us as always backstage. You are you, You

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Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want

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Speaker 1: you to know live at the theater eighty Saint Mark's.

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Speaker 3: Oh oh yeah, and it is a very special day

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Speaker 3: for me personally. Just really quickly before we get into

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Speaker 3: this gentleman seventeen years ago today, a little over that

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Speaker 3: I met this girl at the International Thespian Conference and

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Speaker 3: we hit it off. We were introduced that day, and

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Speaker 3: then ten years ago today I got to become her husband,

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Speaker 3: which is kind of cool. And she's here and I

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Speaker 3: never get to do the show in front of her.

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Speaker 3: So happy anniversary, Diana.

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Speaker 1: Yay, Happy anniversary.

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Speaker 4: Start the night off on a heartwarming note.

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Speaker 1: I love it, And this is a special day. This

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Speaker 1: is a special place with so much history. So we

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Speaker 1: three said we've got to have a special guest, and

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Speaker 1: luckily we found the perfect one. We'd like to introduce you.

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Speaker 1: I think we all know and love her, the co

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Speaker 1: host of the award winning podcast Stuff You Missed in

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Speaker 1: History Class, Holly Fry.

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Speaker 6: Holly Holy Oh, you guys are way too sweet, And

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Speaker 6: if you would like to just hang out at my

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Speaker 6: house and do this every morning when I wake up,

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Speaker 6: that would be.

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Speaker 3: So.

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Speaker 6: As Matt kind of did in a nin er Niner

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Speaker 6: way earlier, we did get to see The Kitchen already,

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Speaker 6: which is Warner Brother's new film, and as I think

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Speaker 6: Scary explained, it follows these amazing women on their incredible

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Speaker 6: trajectory through like taking over the crime industry of nineteen

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Speaker 6: seventy eight Hell's Kitchen. This, in turn no spoilers because

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Speaker 6: we don't want to give any of them away, but

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Speaker 6: because it is a story about women in the crime syndicate,

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Speaker 6: it inspired this podcast, which is about another story of

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Speaker 6: a similar incredibly badass woman who worked her way to

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Speaker 6: the top of the organized crime of New York and

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Speaker 6: other places. As you'll hear, America's first mob boss was

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Speaker 6: a woman.

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Speaker 4: You guys, It's true.

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Speaker 1: It's true, true, specifically, a woman known as Frederica marm Bandelbaum.

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Speaker 1: She was born Frederica Henriette Augusta Weisner in eighteen eighteen

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Speaker 1: in a Prussian town called Castle, which is now a

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Speaker 1: city in modern day Germany.

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Speaker 3: That's right, And we don't know a whole lot about

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Speaker 3: Marm's backstory other than you know, her family was Jewish,

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Speaker 3: and in eighteen forty eight she married a guy named

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Speaker 3: Wulf Israel Mandelbaum nice and Wulf Mandelbaum, and she and

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Speaker 3: he were traveling peddlers, and they were subjected to some

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Speaker 3: pretty serious persecution and anti Semitism throughout their lives when

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Speaker 3: they were there.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, Actually traveling peddler was one of the few jobs

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Speaker 6: that Jews were allowed to hold at the time. And

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Speaker 6: in addition to this discrimination, the Mandelbaums were also really

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Speaker 6: driven to a scary place, which is the brink of starvation.

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Speaker 6: When the potato blight of the nineteenth or the eighteen

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Speaker 6: forties hit Europe, we talk about it a lot in

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Speaker 6: context of Ireland, but many countries were deeply impacted, and

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Speaker 6: so there was also this political instability that developed in

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Speaker 6: Germany in the late eighteen forties when they had their

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Speaker 6: own series of revolutions which failed, and these combined factors

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Speaker 6: led them to the decision that they had to flee

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Speaker 6: Germany and they left in eighteen fifty.

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Speaker 7: So both left on the steamship the Baltimore and arrived

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Speaker 7: in New York in July of that same year, and

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Speaker 7: Fredrika and their infant daughter Berta.

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Speaker 6: Yeah nice yeah nail plus.

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Speaker 4: Pronunciation guru right here.

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Speaker 7: Berta soon followed and they arrived in September via the Erie,

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Speaker 7: and Fredrika at the time was twenty three years old,

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Speaker 7: which is bonkers to me. I don't know why, because

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Speaker 7: I'm thirty five, and I don't feel like I've accomplished

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Speaker 7: nearly as much as we're going to describe this woman

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Speaker 7: having accomplished at that point in her life. But the

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Speaker 7: Mandelbombs traveled in steerage where more than one hundred immigrants

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Speaker 7: were packed into these incredibly tight quarters in one of

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Speaker 7: three of the ship's lower decks, and there was a

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Speaker 7: row of tiny, hay lined bunks that were stacked against

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Speaker 7: the wall, and passengers were provided with what was called

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Speaker 7: an immigrants kit, which was a horse blanket, a beat

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Speaker 7: up tin plate, a knife, a fork in a spoon

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Speaker 7: and seasickness was rampant. It was a constant problem, and

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Speaker 7: the remedies that folks us things like lime drops and

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Speaker 7: yeah it's true, raw onions.

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Speaker 4: Were totally useless.

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Speaker 7: So personal space and hygiene were entirely non existent, and

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Speaker 7: diseases ran rampant on the ship, and many did not

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Speaker 7: survive this absurdly perilous journey.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I feel like we should consider like the supplies

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Speaker 6: they were given were not nice. So next time you're

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Speaker 6: on your international flight and you want to complain about

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Speaker 6: your thin blanket, just trust that you're getting luxury.

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Speaker 1: By comparison, the happy Titanic moments you see in steerage untrue, right,

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Speaker 1: total fantasy, and especially difficult for Marm because Marm was

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Speaker 1: almost six feet tall, she was around two hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty pounds. She was an imposing figure who's stuck out

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Speaker 1: in a crowd, and she was easy to find. So

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Speaker 1: imagine being almost six feet tall and stuck in Asmol

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Speaker 1: said these tiny hay line buildings, This serious, seriously dangerous,

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Speaker 1: tortuous situation could prove fatal to a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: And we will never know exactly what Marm and her

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Speaker 1: daughter endured during this journey. But one thing is for certain.

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Speaker 1: It was not pretty. It was the opposite. It was ugly,

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Speaker 1: and the crowding did not stop at steerage. This is

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Speaker 1: one of the worst parts. So they get out of

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Speaker 1: the boat and they think, you know, who knows what

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Speaker 1: They're dreaming of a big, beautiful city, green vistas and

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Speaker 1: so on. But the problem is, by eighteen fifty this city,

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Speaker 1: New York was the largest and busiest port in the

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Speaker 1: United States. So Frederica, her husband, Wolf and Berta were

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Speaker 1: just three roughly two million people who would immigrate to

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Speaker 1: the US via New York. We're in the eighteen fifties

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Speaker 1: chasing this dream of a better life in a better country, and.

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Speaker 3: It was a dream that was tough to catch, especially

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Speaker 3: early on. The Mantel Bombs started their lives in New

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Speaker 3: York in the lower east side of Manhattan, in an

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Speaker 3: area known as Klein deutsch Land or Little Germany, which

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Speaker 3: where I believe we're in right now. We're at least

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Speaker 3: extremely close to it at this moment. At the time,

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Speaker 3: Little Germany was made up of around four hundred blocks,

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Speaker 3: and Tompkins Square Park, which is right down the road,

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Speaker 3: was at the very center of it. And then over

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Speaker 3: the years it expanded pretty significantly, and at one point

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Speaker 3: it was I believe I Well, we'll get into it

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Speaker 3: a little later. But like a lot of the German

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Speaker 3: families who moved into the city around that time, the

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Speaker 3: Mandelbombs began their life in New York living with family

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Speaker 3: members or friends who would put them up while they

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Speaker 3: searched for their own place to start a new life.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, and eventually the Mandlums found an apartment, their own

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Speaker 7: place on Eighth Street, and it was a stifling, windowless

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Speaker 7: room and a surdly run down tenement building. There was

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Speaker 7: no heat, there was no indoor plumbing, The bathroom consisted

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Speaker 7: of a wooden out house in the alley, and they

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Speaker 7: had to carry their own water from like hand pumps,

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Speaker 7: and that was the only way they could get access

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Speaker 7: to fresh water. And those hand pumps were out in

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Speaker 7: the sidewalk.

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Speaker 6: So probably a lot like your first apartment, That's what

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Speaker 6: I'm guessing. And the thing is life for most immigrants,

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Speaker 6: As much as they thought this was going to be

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Speaker 6: way easier, it was extraordinarily difficult. The Mandelbaumbs actually lost

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Speaker 6: their first child. That was not an uncommon occurrence for families.

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Speaker 6: But even so with that tragedy in their history, they

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Speaker 6: still ended up kind of doing better than most. They

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Speaker 6: had a room to themselves, for example, which seemed incredibly luxurious,

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Speaker 6: and a lot of immigrants were actually living transient lives.

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Speaker 6: They were sleeping wherever they could, where they could put

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Speaker 6: down a bedroll, where someone would let them, they would

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Speaker 6: just if they could find a dry place, they would

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Speaker 6: make that their bed for the night. They carried literally

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Speaker 6: everything they had with them, so I mean, I couldn't

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Speaker 6: even carry my Star Wars figures.

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Speaker 7: But you've been to the tour of Ellis Island where

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Speaker 7: you see, yeah, the luggage room where they confiscate your

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Speaker 7: luggage and you get it back.

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Speaker 4: We're talking like trunks.

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Speaker 7: We're talking like these massive packs that they would carry

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Speaker 7: everything they had, and they would absolutely lose a lot

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Speaker 7: of these things throughout the course of this experience we're

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Speaker 7: talking about.

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Speaker 4: They would.

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Speaker 6: And part of that was that they were really victimized

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Speaker 6: by slum lords who took advantage of people in this

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Speaker 6: desperate situation. Who would you charge them way too much

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Speaker 6: for not permanent living quarters really tight and often there

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Speaker 6: were dozens of people crammed in one room. So then

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Speaker 6: if they did not pay, they lost those possessions because

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Speaker 6: those slum lords would kick them right out and they

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Speaker 6: did not get to take their things with them, So

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Speaker 6: at that point they would just be turned out on

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Speaker 6: the street. They had no money, they had no possessions,

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Speaker 6: just to clothes on their backs, and they were trying

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Speaker 6: to start a new life. So survival very quickly became

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Speaker 6: the name of the game. And the system was, of

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Speaker 6: course corrupt, and the norm for immigrants was discrimination and cruelty.

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Speaker 6: We've kind of hit that point repeatedly, and so understandably, Mandelbaum,

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Speaker 6: like a lot of immigrants, just decided that she had

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Speaker 6: to make her own rules and figure out a way

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Speaker 6: to survive and support her family, and that meant turning

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Speaker 6: to crime.

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Speaker 1: And as it turns out, she was phenomenally good.

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Speaker 3: At Oh my goodness, she had a gift.

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Speaker 1: No smoke on that one. So Mandelbaum began to lay

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Speaker 1: the groundwork for her life as a career criminal while

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Speaker 1: she was working as a street peddler. Since she and

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Speaker 1: Wolf could not afford a wagon, much less a storefront,

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Speaker 1: they set up shop on the streets of Little Germany.

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Speaker 1: They were walking in the midst of the crowds, selling

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Speaker 1: whatever they could find that they thought anybody might remotely want,

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Speaker 1: broken watches, scraps of fabric, not like whole pieces of clothing,

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Speaker 1: like scraps of fabric, pieces of rope, stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: And the kinds of things they were selling were, as

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Speaker 1: you could tell, not in particularly high demand. So try

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Speaker 1: as they might, working all day well into the night,

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Speaker 1: they could barely afford to feed their children. Something had

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Speaker 1: to be done.

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Speaker 7: But it was during these early days pedaling on the

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Speaker 7: streets of Little Germany that Frederica Mandelbaum began making these

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Speaker 7: contacts that would prove to be super important in establishing her,

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Speaker 7: ultimately her criminal enterprise. So at the time, there were

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Speaker 7: children that would just roam the streets. A lot of times,

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Speaker 7: they were homeless, a lot of times they were part

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Speaker 7: of families that were transient.

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Speaker 4: As well, but they would sell.

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Speaker 7: These odds and ends much like that peddler's life, and

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Speaker 7: their parents, if they had them, would encourage them to

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Speaker 7: make a little more money, to steal, to do petty crimes,

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Speaker 7: to become pickpockets and thieves. And Mandelbaum saw this and

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Speaker 7: she had like kind of a light bulb moment where

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Speaker 7: she was like, Okay, I'm going to capitalize on this.

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Speaker 7: She started, literally, like Oliver twist Fagan style, enlisting these

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Speaker 7: street urchin children into this grassroots criminal empire. She also

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Speaker 7: met thieves and other petty crooks who you know, like

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Speaker 7: weren't children, and she started to look into how to

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Speaker 7: unload the stolen goods that they had acquired, and.

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Speaker 6: This led her to an Aha moment where she realized, Hey,

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Speaker 6: there is just as much, if not more money to

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Speaker 6: make moving stolen goods than actually doing the stealing, which

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Speaker 6: is pretty enterprising. And boyle boy, did she do just that.

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Speaker 6: She found her niche and she was spectacular at it.

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Speaker 6: So for the Mandelbaum and her family, things really took

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Speaker 6: a turn for the better. This happened, ironically, during a

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Speaker 6: time that was very difficult for most people because it

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Speaker 6: was the Panic of eighteen fifty seven.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, not the most encouraging way to describe an event

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Speaker 1: in history, right. So at the time Panic of the

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Speaker 1: Panic of eighteen fifty seven, we as a country, the

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Speaker 1: United States, had more or less overplayed our financial hand.

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Speaker 1: We expanded domestic investment and business at a that lagged

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Speaker 1: behind the already failing international economy. And it was a

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Speaker 1: bubble that let me do a sound effect. It was

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Speaker 1: a bubble that popped spectacularly.

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Speaker 6: Oh spectacular, Yeah, we'll edit that part.

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Speaker 1: So so it's serious, though, I don't want to make

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Speaker 1: light of this. Multitudes of banks closed, hundreds of businesses

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Speaker 1: failed overnight, and that meant that tens of thousands of

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Speaker 1: people woke up one morning without a job and they

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Speaker 1: had to figure out something. This was oddly advantageous for

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Speaker 1: people who were already living on the other side of

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Speaker 1: the law. They were familiar with this sort of informal system.

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Speaker 1: The folks with legitimate jobs had to learn this stuff

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Speaker 1: very quickly, and they had to go to the streets

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Speaker 1: doing the same stuff that Mandelbaum started out doing. However,

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Speaker 1: she was in a much better position.

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Speaker 4: Oh, how the tables have turned.

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Speaker 3: That's right. So Mandelbaum had already established herself as this

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Speaker 3: shrewd trader, and she was a ruthless business person, and

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Speaker 3: she was just in the perfect position to take full

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Speaker 3: advantage of all the woes that the country, in specifically

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Speaker 3: New York City, was going through at the time. And

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Speaker 3: according to her contemporaries, when she was making a transaction, right,

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Speaker 3: she would never buy anything for more than half of

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Speaker 3: what it was worth, and she would never sell it

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Speaker 3: for less than twice of what she paid. That's pretty

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Speaker 3: good if you can actually get away with that over

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Speaker 3: the course of a career, right, And she became known

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Speaker 3: as one of the best fences in the entire city

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Speaker 3: of New York. She was just purchasing stolen stuff from

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Speaker 3: all the criminals that are gathering things for her and

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Speaker 3: then selling it to legitimate buyers. Now that can be

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Speaker 3: anyone from just let's say Holly wanted to get a

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Speaker 3: Grido something or other, she had to have one to

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Speaker 3: a business, a company that has a storefront that wants

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Speaker 3: to have goods to sell there.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: And if you think about this as a proprietor in

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Speaker 3: these down times, in a down economy like that, the

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Speaker 3: only way to actually keep your business alive is to

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Speaker 3: offer the lowest possible prices to customers that you possibly can.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: Then you also have to charge enough to make a

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Speaker 3: profit on whatever good you're selling to them. And that

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Speaker 3: meant that the stolen goods from Marm's enterprise made business sense.

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Speaker 6: And it makes you wonder just how many of Marms

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Speaker 6: fell off the wagon. Bits of loot actually ended up

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Speaker 6: in legitimate storefronts in New York City at the time.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, or how much of that kind of thing is

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Speaker 7: actually still happening today right now?

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Speaker 1: I mean think about it. Don't think about it.

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Speaker 3: Let's not so that was way way back in the

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Speaker 3: mid nineteenth century. Now not now at all. Right, We're good,

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Speaker 3: everything's good. Marm's network perfectly was straddling the worlds of

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Speaker 3: both this crime, the world of crime in the world

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Speaker 3: of commerce, and she was connecting the numerous criminal sellers

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Speaker 3: to the legitimate and very eager purchasers. Everyone in the

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Speaker 3: city at that time is looking for a bargain and

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Speaker 3: everything they're doing, and with Marm's business model, everybody was winning.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, if you wanted to sell something to someone who

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Speaker 6: was not gonna ask a lot of questions, you went

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Speaker 6: to Marm. And if you wanted to buy something on

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Speaker 6: the cheap, ridiculously cheap, questionably cheap, you went to Marm.

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Speaker 6: So soon every street level criminal had either met or

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Speaker 6: worked with Frederica mar Mandelbaumen.

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Speaker 7: But pretty quickly her network climbed out from just like

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Speaker 7: the depths of street level criminals, and she started establishing

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Speaker 7: relationships with people like lawyers, police officials, prosecutors, anyone that

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Speaker 7: wanted to have a relationship that had something to gain

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Speaker 7: from knowing Marm. She was a regular at this place

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Speaker 7: called the Eighth Street Thieves Exchange, which was one of

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Speaker 7: New York's most active black markets. I heard it described

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Speaker 7: as like a Walmart of thievery, kind of and wards,

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Speaker 7: by the way, at the time were these numbered voting

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Speaker 7: districts in New York that was divided up into and

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Speaker 7: that'll come a little bit later. So she was beloved

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Speaker 7: as well in the Jewish community, and she often used

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Speaker 7: her synagogue, which was she was very active in as.

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Speaker 4: A networking site.

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Speaker 7: And even the corrupt politicians of Tammany Hall, the political machine,

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Speaker 7: were huge fans of Marm because they knew that if

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Speaker 7: they played ball with her, that she would help them

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Speaker 7: secure the Jewish vote in the thirteenth Ward, which she

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Speaker 7: was becoming particularly influential within. So there were folks like

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Speaker 7: Tammany Hall's boss Tweed and the particularly corrupt mayor Fernando

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Speaker 7: Woods at the time who were regular guests at her

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Speaker 7: house at these like souares that she would throw, and

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Speaker 7: they absolutely were doing business with her, no question about it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So while she's rubbing shoulders with all of these

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Speaker 3: big names in the city, she's also she and all

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Speaker 3: the money in her enterprise. They're financing some of the

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Speaker 3: city's most spectacular crimes, like the Manhattan Savings Bank robbery, which.

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Speaker 1: Could be an episode all its own. It's crazy. Can

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Speaker 1: you give us like a little quick and dirty about this?

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Speaker 3: Definitely? So in It was eighteen seventy eight when this occurred,

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Speaker 3: and this robbery was and still is to this day

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Speaker 3: in twenty nineteen, the largest bank robbery of all time

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Speaker 3: in terms of real money that was stolen at that time.

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Speaker 3: In eighteen seventy eight, over three million dollars in cash,

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Speaker 3: money and securities were stolen. Think about that, in eighteen

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Speaker 3: seventy eight dollars.

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Speaker 4: WHOA.

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Speaker 3: So here's the big question. We've kind of gone over

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Speaker 3: all this stuff about Fredrika Mandelbaum, but what really makes

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Speaker 3: her different? How could she operate a criminal enterprise at

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Speaker 3: this scale for such a long time.

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Speaker 1: Now, what I love about that is that's that's a

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Speaker 1: great question and it actually does have an answer, which

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Speaker 1: doesn't always happen when we're talking about history. Right, So,

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Speaker 1: marm succeeded in a in an industry that also had

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Speaker 1: other players. Right, there were rival fence operations in a

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Speaker 1: day to fighting against these groups. She raised four children, right,

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Speaker 1: and she was caring for Wolf, her sick husband, and

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Speaker 1: suffered from consumption. He was also, sadly to say, not

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Speaker 1: respected by either the legal operators like the cops, or

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Speaker 1: the illegal people. They all thought that this guy was

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Speaker 1: a joke. They actually called him and this was a

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Speaker 1: very bad word at the time. They referred to him

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Speaker 1: as a non entity.

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Speaker 4: Ouch.

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Speaker 1: I know, it's brutal, right, And so she was taking

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Speaker 1: care of her family pretty much on her own. She

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Speaker 1: was also running a legitimate dry goods store. And I

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Speaker 1: want to be honest with everyone. I want to clear

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Speaker 1: this up really quickly, because when we started working on this,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't sure what dry goods meant. I thought it

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Speaker 1: was like a bean store.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no question about it.

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Speaker 3: I honestly had no idea.

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Speaker 6: Either that's such a bless your heart moment, Thank you Holly.

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Speaker 7: Holly as our resident haberdasher, or like, yeah, some play tell.

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Speaker 6: Us what dry The dry goods were things that were

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Speaker 6: non non food necessities, so it could be clothes, hats, tablewars,

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Speaker 6: et cetera.

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Speaker 1: Gloves.

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Speaker 6: Maybe life needs sure. Yeah, and so not beans. I

401
00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:17,919
Speaker 6: want to really stress kids, not dry beans.

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Speaker 1: Just go to the grocery store. Yeah, I got it, guys,

403
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Speaker 1: I learned so marm Also, while she was doing all this,

404
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,760
Speaker 1: while she's fighting rivals, raising her family and running of

405
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Speaker 1: actually legitimate business, she built the city's largest fencing operation,

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Speaker 1: ran it for more than two decades and still in history,

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Speaker 1: in the history of this town, she is the most

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Speaker 1: successful fence, even in twenty nineteen. But there's another thing

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Speaker 1: that made her different. We've been throwing around the name

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Speaker 1: marm Right, it's her nickname, it's a street name. Where

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Speaker 1: did it come from?

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Speaker 4: Though?

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Speaker 6: Okay, so this is a fun story. Here's the deal.

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Speaker 6: So she was a ruthless criminal, masterbuind but she was

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Speaker 6: also a nurturing lady. I mean, I think there's some

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Speaker 6: evidence of that in the fact that she took care

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Speaker 6: of a family while running two other businesses, one legitimate

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Speaker 6: and one not. She actually took it upon herself to

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Speaker 6: mentor young criminals. I mean, that's sweet. And when you

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Speaker 6: think about it, she taught them their trade. So she

421
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Speaker 6: called this is the sweetest thing. She called her group

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Speaker 6: of criminals, her little chicks and they called her Marm

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Speaker 6: in return. So it was a very nurturing and loving

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Speaker 6: area kind of situation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Beginning around the

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Speaker 6: time of the Panic of eighteen fifty seven, she started

426
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Speaker 6: just taking various ne'er do wells under her wings. She

427
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Speaker 6: was seeing lots of people who needed help and she

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Speaker 6: was like, come to me, I will I will teach you.

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Speaker 6: And although she helped criminals of all types pursue careers

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Speaker 6: in crime and learn their trade and get really good

431
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:56,239
Speaker 6: at it, she was really, really, particularly soft hearted and

432
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Speaker 6: fond of working with young women because she felt like

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Speaker 6: it saved them from a life as a housekeeper or

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Speaker 6: probably other options.

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Speaker 1: Which is kind of a framing spin, you know what

436
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Speaker 1: I mean. These kids were helping her.

437
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Speaker 6: Right, I mean, I also don't want to clean a house,

438
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Speaker 6: but you know, pickpocketing sounds better. But so chief though

439
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 6: in her affection, even though she was very nurturing with

440
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,439
Speaker 6: her little chicks, really what it all came down to

441
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 6: for her were her three surviving children. So Annie, Julius,

442
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,120
Speaker 6: and Sarah were the ones that lived after their first

443
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 6: child had passed, and Marm was so dedicated to them

444
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,200
Speaker 6: that even in the middle of like an incredibly important

445
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,480
Speaker 6: deal or a meeting. If one of her kids was sick,

446
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 6: she was like, I'm sorry, this deal can't happen now,

447
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 6: I'm out. Or even if they just needed her, she

448
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 6: would completely call off whatever she was doing and run

449
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 6: to their side.

450
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 7: So things were really looking up for the Mandel Bombs

451
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,200
Speaker 7: at this point. They absolutely were moving on up out

452
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:57,280
Speaker 7: of the tenements. And now Marm's home was full of

453
00:23:57,760 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 7: dry goods, but they were fancy dry goods. They were

454
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,120
Speaker 7: things like furniture art art is the fanciest of dry

455
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 7: goods if you ask me, silverware, draperies stolen from some

456
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,880
Speaker 7: of the best homes and businesses and mansions in New

457
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,880
Speaker 7: York City. By eighteen sixty four, she bought a three

458
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 7: story building at seventy nine Clinton Street on the corner

459
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 7: of Rivington and Clinton, and the family had their dry

460
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 7: goods store still at the time, run by Wolf and

461
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 7: the kids. It was an adorable family affair, but the

462
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 7: real action was happening in the back rooms where Marm

463
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 7: headed up this incredibly lucrative fencing operation.

464
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 4: This isn't fencing.

465
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,400
Speaker 7: Like fencing, it's like moving stolen goods.

466
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 6: I don't think anybody was kidding.

467
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,119
Speaker 1: So Skyle, I was just clarifying she might have sold fences.

468
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:44,679
Speaker 4: You don't know, I know how.

469
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,159
Speaker 6: There was somebody here this whole time, going how do

470
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 6: you make money fencing like this? I'm just looking their

471
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 6: wallet on the same page, like.

472
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,920
Speaker 1: I see fences everywhere around town. You know what's true.

473
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 7: And she was always one step ahead of the authority

474
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,440
Speaker 7: in the event that there was a raid or something.

475
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 4: She even had this thing.

476
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:05,679
Speaker 7: It was like a chimney with a fake back that

477
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 7: hid a dumbwaiter. So if the cops were coming, they

478
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 7: were knocking on the door, she could like load this

479
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 7: dumbwaiter up in the fake chimney with all the stolen

480
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 7: goods she had, and lower it down underground and be

481
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,119
Speaker 7: like what I'm operating, This is dry goods exclusively. I

482
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,120
Speaker 7: am a legitimate business person. Leave me the hell Are you.

483
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,959
Speaker 1: A chimney inspector, sir, ye, be on your way exactly,

484
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 1: show show me your credentials.

485
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 4: No, it's true.

486
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:33,679
Speaker 7: So she was pretty crafty.

487
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,439
Speaker 1: There's there's a fantastic book by an author named Jade

488
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 1: north Conway, and in this book he delineates three three

489
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 1: principal reasons that mar Mandelbaum was a cut above all

490
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 1: of the other fencing operations, and in the I think

491
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 1: they're pretty legitimate, to be honest.

492
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 3: Well, the first one is, remember she and her family

493
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,119
Speaker 3: there are immigrants from Germany, right, they speak German. But

494
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 3: she learned to speak English extremely well and pretty quickly,

495
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 3: and she could function as an interpreter between any other

496
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 3: immigrants who also spoke German and English. Now this is

497
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,719
Speaker 3: huge because in eighteen seventy and there's an estimated thirty

498
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 3: percent of all of New York City's inhabitants were either

499
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 3: German immigrants or their first generation children. So there are

500
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 3: a lot of people that spoke both English and German

501
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 3: or just English or just German, right, So a lot

502
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 3: of her clientele would need this service, and it probably

503
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 3: also helped put them at ease when she's having a

504
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,679
Speaker 3: transaction with them if she can be functioned as a translator.

505
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 3: And this is just my speculation, but I think it

506
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 3: was probably advantageous that she could understand English so well.

507
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,120
Speaker 3: If let's say she's having some kind of trade deal

508
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,120
Speaker 3: with someone who speaks English who maybe doesn't know who

509
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,880
Speaker 3: she is and thinks that, oh well, she probably only

510
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 3: speaks German, she can understand everything to that person or

511
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 3: that person and their others.

512
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 7: Are saying absolutely, gain the upper hand or even like

513
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 7: overhear deals and you know all that kind of stuff,

514
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 7: and like totally figure out how to kind of capitalize

515
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 7: on that language thing for sure.

516
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 1: And feign ignorance too, right, exactly like, oh, I don't

517
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: know what you're talking about.

518
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 6: Literally, yeah, Oh, the power to be the only person

519
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 6: in the room who literally knows what's everything that's going on. Second,

520
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 6: she had this other skill set, which is sort of

521
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:26,199
Speaker 6: like a different kind of bilinguality. Right, she knew the

522
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,360
Speaker 6: crime industry, but she also was running a legitimate dry

523
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 6: goods store, so she knew the products that were available

524
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 6: and when things came in off the street, she knew

525
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 6: what fabric was worth, what jewelry was worth, and she

526
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 6: knew the markets for those products. So she had a

527
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,880
Speaker 6: very intimate understanding of both their prices and the level

528
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 6: of demand based on the people that have been coming

529
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 6: to her on the side with potential deals or needs.

530
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 6: And this allowed her to make lightning quick calculations about

531
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 6: the value of stolen goods when they were offered to her.

532
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: And third, and perhaps This is the most important heart

533
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 1: of her operation. Everyone from the judges to the street

534
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 1: thieves knew that she would never ask any questions. You

535
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 1: just show up with eighty seven. Hats fine, you know

536
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: what I mean. Let's talk turkey. She dealt in plunder

537
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 1: of all kinds, silk, lace, diamonds, carriages, horses, gold, silver,

538
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 1: of course, bonds and more. And she could, like you

539
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 1: were saying, Holly, she could just look at something a

540
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: thief it brought her, and then lightning quickly, she would

541
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: know automatically how much she would pay for it, and

542
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 1: she would already know where she would sell it, which

543
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: was brilliant. In fact, she was so efficient at this.

544
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 1: When the Chicago Fire of eighteen seventy one occurred, looting

545
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:48,479
Speaker 1: was rampant in Chicago. It's pandemonium was chaotic, and a

546
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 1: lot of the stuff that got looted from a different

547
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 1: city ended up with her. It went through her hands

548
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 1: at some point. And although her pursuit of this stuff

549
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 1: was sophisticated and very well thought out, the actual process

550
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: was really simple. It's sort of like you said earlier, Matt.

551
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 1: She let's say, for instance, let's go with eighty seven

552
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 1: stolen fedors. Sure, So somebody comes up eighty seven stolen

553
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 1: fa doors. Let's say that's like one hundred dollars worth

554
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: of hats. It's like a math problem. We'll just we

555
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: don't know how much of those actually go wear.

556
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 6: No marmandelbauce values of hat.

557
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 1: So she would say, okay, this is one hundred dollars.

558
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: If I were actually paying for this legitimately, I will

559
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: give you twenty dollars. That's one fifth of it. And

560
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: the thief would say, okay, yeah, that's fine, I'll just

561
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: go get some more hats tomorrow, and then she would

562
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: resell those goods for sixty dollars. And the police had

563
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: action as well in this process. So the victims of

564
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: theft might approach the police and say, hey, somebody stole

565
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 1: all my weird hats or whatever, and they would say, well,

566
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: if you make it worth a while, we'll do our

567
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: best to find them.

568
00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 7: Well, and sometimes they would do it too, is just

569
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 7: go back to marm and like buy another hat, like

570
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 7: an equivalent hat, and then say hey, here's your hat. Yeah,

571
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 7: And it was like yeah, it was absolutely subterfuged because

572
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 7: they were getting paid under the table.

573
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: So from their opinion every from their perspective, rather, everybody

574
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: is winning except you know, the victims.

575
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 6: Right, except the person whose hats those were originally. What's

576
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 6: interesting about marm is that even though she became very

577
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 6: successful and could have easily moved uptown to much fancier digs,

578
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 6: she chose to stay in Little Germany. However, her empire

579
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 6: expanded all over the place. It moved throughout New York

580
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 6: into all the burroughs beyond the Burrows. Eventually she became

581
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 6: an established force in Trenton and Newark. She courted wealthy,

582
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 6: legitimate clients as well as Jersey criminals. And then what's

583
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 6: what's interesting and not really surprising is that her husband

584
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 6: Bothe died in eighteen seventy five. But because she had

585
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 6: kind of been running everything, she was able to, you know,

586
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 6: pretty quickly move on. She didn't have to pause and

587
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 6: grieve and wonder how she was going to make ends meet.

588
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 6: She was like, Okay, well, let's keep the business running.

589
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 6: And by the eighteen eighties she owned several tenement buildings,

590
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 6: and she also owned warehouses, and she used those warehouses

591
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 6: to store all of this merchandise, all of the stolen

592
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 6: goods that she was handling. But what's really cool, cool

593
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 6: being a relative term, is that this is not all

594
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 6: she built.

595
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 4: And I love this part of the story.

596
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 7: So Mandelbaum allegedly founded an actual school to train up

597
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 7: young criminals around eighteen seventy.

598
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 4: She's true.

599
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 7: She bought a building on the corner of Clinton and

600
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 7: Grant and transformed it into kind of like an X

601
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 7: Men school for the gifted or whatever, or a Hogwarts

602
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 7: type situation, but instead of teaching you know, young mutants

603
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 7: or wizards or whatever to harness their superpowers, Mandelbaum's Grand

604
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 7: Street School started off with the finer points of pickpocketry.

605
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, pocket tree, here we go.

606
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 7: I'm liking that, or things like misdirection and yeah, young

607
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 7: men and women like which is a big deal. Who

608
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 7: showed promise with the basics were then graduated on to

609
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 7: more advanced skills, stuff like safe cracking or grand larceny

610
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 7: or blackmail or con artistry like you do. And the

611
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 7: professors at this Grand Street School were the best criminals

612
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 7: in the city because they were already part of Mandelbaum's

613
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 7: network of crooks. So students who excelled at this school

614
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 7: were brought into Mandelbaum's inner circle.

615
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely a kind of promotion, right, sure, something new.

616
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 6: I still want to get my PhD in pickpocketology, I know, right,

617
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 6: I believe excellent use of my time your phdp.

618
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: I guess, are you sure?

619
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 5: So?

620
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 3: You know, allegedly this this school was right next to

621
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 3: the police headquarters. Again, that's allegedly so brazen.

622
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 4: I love it. I love her so much.

623
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 1: That plays into the story because the thing about bribery

624
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: and corruption is that there is a threshold. People will

625
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: look the other way for some stuff, but if we

626
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: get to egregious, if we get to blatant, then there's

627
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: a police chief who needs to get reelected, so needs

628
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: a scapegoat. And although details on this details on this

629
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 1: school are a little bit sketchy at this point, we

630
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: know that it did eventually close when Mandelbaum found out

631
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 1: that one of the students was the child of a

632
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 1: police official. This kid was enrolled, and picture Mandelbaumb, you know,

633
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: just wiping her forehead a little bit and thinking the

634
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 1: heat's getting close, you know. So she didn't want to

635
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 1: risk the school being exposed. And part of it was

636
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: probably because she had this loyalty to her little chicks too,

637
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: So it operated for about six years and it generated,

638
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 1: as you said, some of the most gifted criminals in

639
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 1: New York which makes them, by default, some of the

640
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 1: most gifted criminals in the country at the time.

641
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 3: Okay, so we've established here that Fredrikamer Mandelbaum was a

642
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 3: very important adult in the lives of a whole bunch

643
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 3: of kids in New York City and young adults. And

644
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 3: to some, you know, she was the employer, the person

645
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 3: that you take your goods to and you're gonna get

646
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 3: a little bit, you're gonna get paid a little bit.

647
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 3: To others, she's the headmaster at this school where you're

648
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 3: going every day, and to a lot of them, she

649
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 3: was also Ma, like we've kind of discussed earlier, and

650
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 3: we actually have a quote here from marm Mandelbomb.

651
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, she's pretty blunt, and explaining why they gave

652
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 1: her this nickname, she says, I am Ma because I

653
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 1: give them what a mother cannot sometimes give money and

654
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 1: horses and diamonds. And I don't know, I don't know

655
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: how you guys grew.

656
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 4: Up, right, but I had.

657
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 1: I had a childhood lacking and at least diamonds and horses.

658
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 7: You never even had, like horseback riding lessons or like

659
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 7: wrote a pony or no, but.

660
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 1: She's giving them their own horses.

661
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, diamond rusted diamond. Yes, it's crazy.

662
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 6: The money actually was coated with diamonds. It was just

663
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 6: like Christmas at my house growing up.

664
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 3: So we've talked about some of those professors. They were

665
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 3: at the schoo. They were some of the best criminals

666
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 3: in all New York City. A lot of her proteges

667
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 3: ended up becoming the next generation of best criminals. So

668
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 3: we've got a few of those here that we'll go over.

669
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 3: The first one is Sophie Lyons, and again at a

670
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 3: very young age, she started out working with mar Mandelbaum

671
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 3: bringing things to her and we actually have a quote

672
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,839
Speaker 3: from Sophie that illustrates the way she felt about marm She.

673
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 6: Said, quote, I was not quite six years old when

674
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:28,240
Speaker 6: I stole my first pocket book.

675
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 3: That's crazy.

676
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 6: I mean, you gotta start them early. I was very

677
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 6: happy because I was petted and rewarded. My wretched stepmother

678
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,240
Speaker 6: patted my curly head, gave me a bag of candy

679
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:40,800
Speaker 6: and said I was a good girl.

680
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:42,879
Speaker 1: Oo foreshadowing right.

681
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 3: Okay, So after years and years of stealing and conning,

682
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 3: Sophie Lyons really did become one of the most notorious

683
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 3: thieves in all of New York City, and she also

684
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 3: became extremely notorious as a confidence woman, and she was

685
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 3: considered by Marm to be one of her allies.

686
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,280
Speaker 7: Right, But as you might have guessed from the wretched

687
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 7: stepmother line, Lyons eventually turned on Mandelbaum and totally threw

688
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 7: her under the bus. She actually wrote a tell all

689
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 7: book called Why Crime Doesn't Pay Now.

690
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,399
Speaker 3: Yeah. Now. Another one of the proteges who was also

691
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 3: very close with Sophie Lyons was a woman named do

692
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 3: we decide it was Lena?

693
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:24,720
Speaker 6: I think it's Lena, Lena.

694
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 3: Lena Kleinschmidt. And again she's another very prominent criminal that

695
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 3: came up under Marm's tutelage. And she actually moved to Hackensack,

696
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 3: New Jersey, and she was posing as the wealthy widow

697
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 3: of this South American mining tycoon, and she started doing

698
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,800
Speaker 3: the same things that Marm was doing, where she's holding

699
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 3: these big parties for important officials, only this time it's

700
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 3: over in Jersey. And she actually got in trouble because

701
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 3: she was wearing a ring. That's how she got caught.

702
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 3: She was wearing a ring that was stolen that was

703
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 3: recognized by one of the important folks at her house.

704
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 4: So it was a.

705
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 7: Business model that marm was establishing. This is like what

706
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 7: she was franchise.

707
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,359
Speaker 6: Yeah, I like the idea that Lena was like the

708
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 6: original faker of being the prince from Africa that might

709
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,399
Speaker 6: need like and was getting confidence of people that way.

710
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 6: It's nice and.

711
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 1: These are just these are just a few of the associates.

712
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,320
Speaker 1: There were others that are very well known in crime

713
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 1: history today, people like Little Annie Riley Ellen Clegg or

714
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 1: Margaret Brown who went by the street name Old Mother

715
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 1: Hubbard Dopes.

716
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:30,879
Speaker 4: Yes.

717
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 7: Then we also had a guy named Hermann Stout Stout

718
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 7: Stout Stout Stout, and he was the only one Marm trusted.

719
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 7: Stoud was Moundebaum's a most trusted associate and was always

720
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 7: by her side. He literally is the one who did

721
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 7: all the heavy lifting and when they did deals, he

722
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 7: would tote all of the goods to one of her

723
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 7: many warehouses across town. And she loved him over all

724
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:54,319
Speaker 7: of her associates for sure.

725
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

726
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,359
Speaker 1: She referred to him at different times as her son,

727
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:07,240
Speaker 1: especially when they were talking to the police. Spoiler alert,

728
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 1: she doesn't really get away eventually, despite all of her

729
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 1: precautionary measures. There's a plot twist in New York. New

730
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,720
Speaker 1: officials are elected and they're actually not corrupt. It's weird.

731
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 1: It's like a Shyamala on twist, you know. Yeah, and

732
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 1: so they said, all right, we're going to bring this

733
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 1: whole operation down. And the District Attorney's office was in

734
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 1: the midst of a cold war with a corrupt police

735
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,439
Speaker 1: force with boss politics. The new mayor, a guy named

736
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 1: Edward Cooper, wanted to reform the city was very vocal

737
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 1: about it, and it turned out that many people in

738
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 1: this fair metropolis agreed. They were like, I would be

739
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 1: nice if my stuff is stolen to at least get

740
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 1: it back.

741
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, exactly. But the problem is a domino effect

742
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 3: ensued with that, at least for marm in her criminal enterprise,

743
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,879
Speaker 3: because without the support of these politicians, she couldn't effectively

744
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 3: the bribe the officials that she needed to, and without

745
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 3: those bribes greasing all the wheels to make stuff happen

746
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 3: and to give her some cover, she couldn't operate out

747
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 3: in the open anymore.

748
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. And what's more, the situation worsens because she could

749
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:18,280
Speaker 1: also no longer protect her criminal network, the city's worth

750
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 1: of little chicks. They were once grateful for her patronage,

751
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 1: and now they began flipping, snitching, testifying against her in court.

752
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 1: The tide, in short, was turning the da A guy

753
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 1: named Peter Olney hires the Pinkerton Detective Agency to take

754
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 1: Marm's operation down once and for all.

755
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 6: So in eighteen eighty four, members of the Pinkerton Detective Agency,

756
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 6: which again has its own whole, very rich story and

757
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 6: still exists today in a certain form, was a private entity,

758
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 6: which in some ways kind of prevented it from being

759
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:55,280
Speaker 6: quite so open to the corruption that many public services

760
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,760
Speaker 6: were having issues with. And they did manage to bring

761
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 6: her rain in New York to an end. So their

762
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 6: plan was super simple. This is the thing, like the

763
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 6: criminal masterfind always gets taken down by just the stupidest,

764
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:10,280
Speaker 6: easiest thing. They got a bolt of silk, they tagged

765
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 6: it so they knew that one was the stolen one,

766
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 6: and then they just waited for Marm to buy it,

767
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 6: which she of course did so then she was caught

768
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 6: red handed and she went to trial. She was released

769
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,359
Speaker 6: on bail. This was largely thanks to the work of

770
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 6: how and Humble law firm. She kept them on a

771
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 6: five thousand dollar a year retainer.

772
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, they were like the soul goodman of their dad. Right, Yeah,

773
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:34,439
Speaker 1: very breaking bad.

774
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 6: It was a better call How and Hummel. I would

775
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 6: actually watch that show. And then, in this rare and

776
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,320
Speaker 6: sort of delightfully pearl clutching statement very out of character

777
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 6: that she made to the public, Marm vehemently professed her innocence.

778
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:54,720
Speaker 4: Oh oh, yes, oh this is great. Yeah.

779
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 1: I keep a dry good store and have for twenty

780
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 1: years past. I buy and sell dry goods as other

781
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 1: dry goods people do. Try goods, you say, I have

782
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 1: never knowingly bought stolen goods, and neither did my son Julius.

783
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: I have never stolen anything in.

784
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 3: My life, which is probably true.

785
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,799
Speaker 1: I feel that these charges are brought against me in

786
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 1: spite I have never bribed the police nor had their protection.

787
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 1: I never needed their protection because I and my son

788
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 1: are innocent of these charges. So help me. God.

789
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 7: It's gonna be an amazing juxtaposition to another statement she

790
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 7: makes a little later in the episode.

791
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 6: Yeah short, Marm won Best Dramatic Performance in a non

792
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 6: acting role, but.

793
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 7: It's really important to We haven't really mentioned this specifically,

794
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 7: but like her whole like stroke of genius was that

795
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,359
Speaker 7: she never really handled the stolen goods. She just had

796
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,439
Speaker 7: people do it for her. So she probably maybe even

797
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 7: like was drinking her own kool aid and believed that

798
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 7: she actually wasn't a criminal, that she was just a

799
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,240
Speaker 7: proprietor was like, you know, facilitating things.

800
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 6: You know, I'm helping the community.

801
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 4: I'm helping the community exactly.

802
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: She actually was kind of, Yeah, no one wants to

803
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 1: be a housekeeper.

804
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 6: Right right, certainly not me. I did have that job once,

805
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 6: but that's another story. So rather than surrender in the

806
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 6: midst of all of this, she decided that she would run,

807
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 6: and she escaped north to Canada. She established herself with

808
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:26,280
Speaker 6: over one million dollars worth of stolen diamonds and cold hard.

809
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 4: Cash slight backtrack.

810
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 7: It's an amazing story how she actually accomplished this. She

811
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 7: was under house arrest essentially, or she you know, posted

812
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 7: that bail that we talked about, and she had a

813
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 7: housekeeper that she had impersonate her by dressing in her

814
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 7: classic outfit that she wore, which kind of was like

815
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 7: a queen Victoria kind of situation with like a feathered

816
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 7: hat and like a veil, so she was able to

817
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 7: make trips to her lawyer's office while the Pickertons were

818
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 7: surveilling her, and she went into the lawyer and then

819
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 7: the housekeeper came out, and so they tracked the housekeeper

820
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 7: and then Marm made that Canadian get away, yeah.

821
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 6: Run for the border. So there in Canada they stayed

822
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 6: purposely at second rate, inconspicuous places. They went to a

823
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 6: little hotel near the Grand Trunk Railway station in Hamilton, Canada,

824
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 6: and they just wanted to stay on the dal. They

825
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 6: just tried to keep a low profile. But then on

826
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 6: December ninth of eighteen eighty four, Hamilton police and detectives

827
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 6: arrested Marm and her two associates, Julius her Son and

828
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 6: Herman as they were sitting down for breakfast. So they

829
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 6: were having omelets and handcuffs, and naturally Marm attempted to

830
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 6: bribe the police because that's that's her jam who worked before.

831
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 6: Why would we not do it again. But Canadian police

832
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 6: they don't play. They were not having this.

833
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 7: The incorruptible Canadians, it's true, And so Marm was arrested

834
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 7: yet again in Canada, for a possession of four thousand

835
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 7: dollars worth of stolen diamonds. But what, yeah, I don't know,

836
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 7: Like what would that translate to in today's money?

837
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 4: Four thousand dollars in diamonds? It was like a million bucks.

838
00:43:57,880 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 4: I don't know.

839
00:43:58,480 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 3: I'm not imagining.

840
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 4: I'm not a human.

841
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:02,399
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I guess it would be about

842
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 7: a fistful of diamonds.

843
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:04,880
Speaker 4: I think we should.

844
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 1: Agree that loose diamonds are just inherently a sketchy thing.

845
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 7: It's also absurdly baller. If you're just dealing in loose diamonds,

846
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 7: you just have them lying around.

847
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 3: There's a Jeffrey Epstein thing there.

848
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 4: Let's not get.

849
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 3: Leave.

850
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:21,320
Speaker 4: So yeah, she's arrested again.

851
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,840
Speaker 7: But luckily the owner of the diamonds couldn't, like eyeball,

852
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 7: identify that the diamonds were mine. I don't know how

853
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 7: how would you like know that they were these were

854
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 7: my diamonds?

855
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 6: I like, look at me, like, I just have I

856
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 6: assume here diamonds I don't believe.

857
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 4: Okay, that's fair.

858
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:40,399
Speaker 1: Maybe there was an etching on the bottom, or maybe

859
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:42,479
Speaker 1: there were a specific weight or specific cut.

860
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 7: Perhaps, but this guy could not do that thing, so

861
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:48,799
Speaker 7: the Canadian cops had to let her go as well,

862
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 7: and the New York DA didn't have jurisdicson so he

863
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 7: wasn't able to send anyone to the Canadian court to

864
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 7: fetch her, and marm and her associates once again ran free.

865
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and she actually ended up with her diamonds.

866
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 7: Right, she totally did. She retrieved her diamonds, which is

867
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 7: absurdly ballered the second time around.

868
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,319
Speaker 6: I love the idea of the jail checkout where they

869
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 6: just hand her up here.

870
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 4: Can't figure out who they belong to, so they must

871
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 4: be yours.

872
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 1: Oh, she did have to pay six hundred and forty bucks.

873
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:19,240
Speaker 4: It's like the processing.

874
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, everybody gets a griving for sure.

875
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 7: So she used those diamonds and she bought herself a tiny, small,

876
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 7: very meager, two story house along Hamilton's main Street, and

877
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,360
Speaker 7: by eighteen eighty six she'd opened you guessed it again,

878
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 7: another dry goods store.

879
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 4: Oh heavens, I know she's really good at the dry

880
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 4: goods and uh.

881
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 1: And it became a family operation, right it totally again.

882
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 7: Her three children joined her, Annie and Julius permanently, and

883
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 7: then her married daughter, Sarah, stayed in Hamilton behind for

884
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 7: a time before returning back to New York with her family.

885
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:57,319
Speaker 1: And so now we're at this this strange sort of crossroads, right,

886
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 1: we have to ask ourselves was marm fine after all

887
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 1: these years on the street and narrow were her queen

888
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 1: pen days behind her? We're very proud of that phrase.

889
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:08,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, Endpen's pretty good.

890
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 1: It depends on what you think. We want to hear

891
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 1: your opinion on this, on what you think about this

892
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 1: letter that she sent to her friends in New York

893
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:20,719
Speaker 1: after she had started her dry goods store in Canada.

894
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 6: I like how Ben sets this up like there will

895
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 6: be question marks in your head, but when you hear this,

896
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:29,319
Speaker 6: there won't. Marm wrote quote, I beg to announce to

897
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 6: you that I have opened my new emporium, in every

898
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 6: respect the equal of my late New York establishment. I

899
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 6: shall be pleased to continue our former pleasant business relations,

900
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 6: promising not alone to pay the best prices for the

901
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 6: article which you may have for sale, but also in

902
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:52,280
Speaker 6: carefully protecting all my customers, no matter at what expense.

903
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 6: With my present facilities, I am able to dispose of

904
00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 6: all commodities forwarded to me with Dispatch and Security, trusting

905
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 6: to hear from you soon and assuring you that a

906
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,879
Speaker 6: renewal of past favors will be greatly appreciated. I am

907
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:11,359
Speaker 6: yours faithfully, f Mandelbaum.

908
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 7: Can we unpack some of this kind of dated language

909
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:14,399
Speaker 7: real quick?

910
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 4: So I'm sorry with that. I don't even know that

911
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 4: it's dating.

912
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,240
Speaker 6: Well, okay, listen, thinly veiled letter of all times exactly.

913
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 7: But with my present facilities, I am able to dispose

914
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 7: of all commodities forwarded to me with Dispatch and Security.

915
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 7: So I'm going to move your stolen stuff. Yeah, I'm

916
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 7: going to continue doing what I use you.

917
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:33,240
Speaker 6: Guys, is still totally cool. I'm just doing it somewhere else.

918
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:35,279
Speaker 3: If it was written in twenty nineteen, it would have

919
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 3: just said I'm back at it. See you come get

920
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 3: me duolo.

921
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:42,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it is true. Like Dispatch and Security, I'll

922
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:44,400
Speaker 1: not only move all your stuff, but I'll move it

923
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:47,320
Speaker 1: faster than anyone else, and you will not get busted

924
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 1: as you would if you went to other less reputable

925
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 1: fencing establishment.

926
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 4: Exactly.

927
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,320
Speaker 3: There you go. So a gentleman from New Yorker reporter

928
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 3: headed on up to Canada, just you know, peek in

929
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 3: the store. See what's going on in there? Now again,

930
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:06,840
Speaker 3: it's completely legit, he said sarcastically. And this guy reacted

931
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,399
Speaker 3: in a way that can only be described as faint

932
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 3: surprise when he found that all of the New Canadian

933
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 3: stores merchandise came from New York City. That's weird. Everything

934
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 3: was being sold at incredibly almost unbelievably low prices and

935
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 3: there were absolutely zero identifying labels on any of the merchandise.

936
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 3: Oh it checks out, basically. So it appeared that marm

937
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 3: was you know, you'd think she's set up in this

938
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:37,879
Speaker 3: new place. Whatever she's doing, bribing whoever, she's got a bribe,

939
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 3: whatever she's doing to continue this business. It seems like

940
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:43,800
Speaker 3: she was ready to start anew basically a new chapter

941
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 3: for her. She's going to live life out as all

942
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 3: the stories would want us to believe, happily ever after.

943
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 3: But unfortunately it wasn't gonna.

944
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:52,399
Speaker 4: Work out that way for her.

945
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 3: This is a little bit sad here. Her daughter Annie

946
00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 3: were talking about how she was up there in Canada

947
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 3: with her. Well, she went back to new work, as

948
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 3: we mentioned, and while she was there she got pretty

949
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:05,480
Speaker 3: sick and she ended up developing pneumonia and then on

950
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 3: November tenth, eighteen eighty five, her daughter Andie.

951
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:11,439
Speaker 7: Died, and there was no way that Marm was going

952
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 7: to not go back and be there, you know, for

953
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 7: her daughter's burial, and whatever the cost might be, whether

954
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 7: it was to her livelihood, to her own personal freedom,

955
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 7: she was going to do whatever it took. Because we

956
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 7: talked about earlier in the show, her children were her

957
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:29,439
Speaker 7: first and foremost priority. She was going to be there

958
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:32,800
Speaker 7: for them, come hell or high water. And so Mom's

959
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 7: Marm's former home was now owned by a Missus Marks,

960
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:41,319
Speaker 7: and Marm and her son Julius actually slipped into the

961
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:45,880
Speaker 7: house and and Marm was overcome by grief and she

962
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:49,720
Speaker 7: fainted at the time. And she obviously had re established

963
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 7: some of those old connections and those old friendships because

964
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 7: she had a group of friends who actually were there

965
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 7: for her and escorted her out of the house and

966
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 7: they hid her in a different home across the street

967
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 7: while she recovered. But while it was clear that giving

968
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 7: Annie a Christian burial would help kind of like make

969
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:09,280
Speaker 7: things a little more low key and under the radar,

970
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:14,240
Speaker 7: Marm insisted that it had to be a traditional Jewish

971
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:16,440
Speaker 7: service in accordance with her faith, because like you said,

972
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 7: she was very, very religious, and there was no other

973
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 7: way that it was going to work for her.

974
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:24,799
Speaker 6: So Marm's son Julius, tried to do a little disguise work.

975
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:26,839
Speaker 6: He shaved his hair and beard so that he would

976
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 6: evade the police. But mar we mentioned, she was a

977
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 6: very tall woman and very large. She was imposing, so

978
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 6: you couldn't really costume that situation and make her not

979
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:39,319
Speaker 6: look like herself. And she was grieving very deeply, so

980
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:41,920
Speaker 6: she probably wasn't really into the costume idea to begin with.

981
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 6: And what's really interesting is that her street family, like

982
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 6: her criminal family, came to her daughter's funeral as well.

983
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:53,080
Speaker 6: So it was like burglars and bank thieves and pickpockets

984
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 6: and basically every kind of person she had ever touched

985
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 6: in her life and in her school, et cetera, and

986
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:01,360
Speaker 6: they all came out publicly. I mean, everybody at this

987
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 6: point is taking a big risk, but they wanted to

988
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 6: pay their respects to her daughter. And afterwards Marm went

989
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,240
Speaker 6: back to Hamilton, Canada. She was not apprehended by police,

990
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 6: and the Pinkertons also left her alone. And it's unclear

991
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 6: still if the cops took pity on a grieving mother.

992
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:21,279
Speaker 6: What we do know for sure is that she did

993
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 6: return and that there was a police officer even stationed

994
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:27,319
Speaker 6: at the funeral, and so they knew she was there,

995
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 6: and reporters were even there to interview her that day,

996
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:32,839
Speaker 6: so it was not a secret at all. But they

997
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:34,720
Speaker 6: all just let her leave in peace after the service

998
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 6: was over.

999
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:39,040
Speaker 3: And can I make a point to me, this just

1000
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:43,960
Speaker 3: rings true of that sentiment that has occurred, and it's

1001
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 3: occurred in the past several times, and you kind of

1002
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:48,880
Speaker 3: feel it in waves. And I say this as an

1003
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 3: at Lanton, but that idea that we're all New Yorkers

1004
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 3: right of like they know that all of these criminals

1005
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 3: are gathered in this one place, but they also know

1006
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 3: that she and these other people are important in some

1007
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 3: way as a whole, as a community, as a whole,

1008
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:06,880
Speaker 3: right so they just kind of let it slide. And

1009
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:09,400
Speaker 3: I think it speaks to the city in itself.

1010
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 7: There's also like almost like a rules of engagement kind

1011
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 7: of situation where it's like this is not fair game.

1012
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 7: It's like you don't arrest somebody when they're going to church,

1013
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:19,919
Speaker 7: you know, like that's sort of like an unspoken rule

1014
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 7: even between law enforcement and.

1015
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 6: Criminals, it would seem extraordinarily cruel to arrest someone at

1016
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 6: their daughter's funeral.

1017
00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:26,439
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1018
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:28,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have a theory as well that I think

1019
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 1: is pretty plausible. Odds are statistically that police officer at

1020
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 1: some point worked with or for Marm, you know what

1021
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 1: I mean, So he may have been grieving just as much.

1022
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 1: But from that point on, Marm becomes a successful, active

1023
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 1: pillar of the community in Hamilton, Canada. Her shop is legit,

1024
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 1: by which I mean no one officially reported a crime

1025
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 1: that was good enough for her. She regularly attended the

1026
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 1: local synagogue and she began to use that as a

1027
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 1: networking hub. She seems dead set to become a Canadian resident. However,

1028
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,440
Speaker 1: that does not mean that New York City has forgotten

1029
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:12,880
Speaker 1: about her. As a matter of fact, quite the opposite.

1030
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 1: She becomes sort of a celebrity icon of her day.

1031
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 1: She's like Elvis Presley, She's like Bigfoot. Everybody has seen

1032
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 1: this lady in New York and they are convinced that

1033
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:28,040
Speaker 1: it's her. But regardless of how many times they see her,

1034
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 1: they describe her and so on, and they're like this

1035
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:32,680
Speaker 1: close to maybe trying to get a picture of her

1036
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 1: or something, they never catch her. It's almost like the

1037
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 1: fame of who she had become had arrested the city

1038
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 1: and people wanted to have their own Marm mandelbound story.

1039
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 1: And eventually she passed away, and at the time her obituaries,

1040
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:54,880
Speaker 1: which were published, made international news, and they were not

1041
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:59,719
Speaker 1: vilifying her. Really, there was even at the even from

1042
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:02,960
Speaker 1: the law enforcement community, there was a sense of begrudging respect.

1043
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:06,440
Speaker 1: They referred to her as old Mother Marm, the Queen

1044
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:10,799
Speaker 1: of Fences. And in February of eighteen ninety four, when

1045
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 1: she passed away, contemporary accounts described her death as due

1046
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:19,640
Speaker 1: to something called Bright's disease. Nowadays we recognize that as

1047
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:24,920
Speaker 1: nephritis or kidney disease, and her body was actually returned

1048
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:28,960
Speaker 1: to New York. However, there was a mystery afoot.

1049
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:33,239
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, if you're someone with the influence and intelligence

1050
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 3: of mar Mandelbauman, you wanted to get back to New York,

1051
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:38,040
Speaker 3: maybe you could arrange to have it look like you

1052
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:42,840
Speaker 3: died and then maybe send your body, your body in

1053
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:45,800
Speaker 3: a coffin to New York. Right, But maybe it's just stones.

1054
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:48,560
Speaker 3: Maybe it's actually stolen goods that are in that coffin.

1055
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:49,399
Speaker 4: That'd be pretty cool.

1056
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 3: Who knows.

1057
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:54,360
Speaker 6: And her legend, of course feeds all of these thoughts

1058
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:56,840
Speaker 6: that people were having. They were wondering, was it possible

1059
00:54:56,920 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 6: that she's still alive and living in Ontario? And was she,

1060
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:04,359
Speaker 6: as some sources claimed, calling herself an entirely new thing,

1061
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 6: reinventing herself as Madame Fuchs and then kind of plotting

1062
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:10,160
Speaker 6: a covert return to the Lower East Side.

1063
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 7: Yeah, but perhaps me the better question is do legends

1064
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:16,520
Speaker 7: ever truly pass away? And to quote the you know,

1065
00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 7: the wonderful Neil Young, it's better to burn out than

1066
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:21,840
Speaker 7: to fato. You know, there you go, And that's exactly

1067
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:23,080
Speaker 7: what Mandelbaum did.

1068
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:26,680
Speaker 1: It's a good question because we know that while mar

1069
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 1: may no longer be with us today, her legacy does remain.

1070
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 1: She was the most successful fence. She was the first

1071
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:36,640
Speaker 1: mob boss of this country, and history at its heart

1072
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 1: is a palump sets. You know, whatever occurs or is

1073
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:43,360
Speaker 1: written today will never fully erase the past.

1074
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:46,360
Speaker 3: It's so true. So the next time you're walking around

1075
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:48,279
Speaker 3: in this area, if you just happen to make it

1076
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:50,760
Speaker 3: over here and you walk past seventy nine Clinton Street,

1077
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:53,960
Speaker 3: just take a second, just stand there for a second,

1078
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:57,239
Speaker 3: knowing the history, because there's a pawnshop right there in

1079
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:01,040
Speaker 3: that location. Now, a pawnshop kind of crazy, right, there's

1080
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 3: a sign of big, bold yellow sign with bright red

1081
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 3: letters that says we buy gold, silver, diamonds and any other.

1082
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:10,160
Speaker 4: That part.

1083
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 3: But it does say we do repairs.

1084
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:14,239
Speaker 4: Though of course they do.

1085
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 7: You can also actually find her burial site at the

1086
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 7: Union Field Cemetery at Congregation Rhodath Shalom, which is in

1087
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:23,400
Speaker 7: Queen's today.

1088
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:28,080
Speaker 1: And so maybe we end on some other questions. Was

1089
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 1: Fredrika mar Mandelbaum a criminal? I mean, yes, yes, that

1090
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:37,120
Speaker 1: one's pretty easy to answer. But was she a bad person?

1091
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:40,120
Speaker 1: That depends on who you're asking. And it's also although

1092
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:43,840
Speaker 1: it's tempting to oversimplify people and to put them in

1093
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:47,320
Speaker 1: the box of good or bad, you know, diabolical or saint,

1094
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:52,240
Speaker 1: like it's unfair to them and like any other person,

1095
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:55,279
Speaker 1: marm was much more complex than a pat answer, you know,

1096
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:58,120
Speaker 1: And thank you so much for joining.

1097
00:56:57,800 --> 00:56:59,360
Speaker 6: Us, Holly, my great pleasure.

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00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:01,799
Speaker 1: I have to ask. I know everybody's wondering if you're

1099
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:05,640
Speaker 1: not familiar yet, four fellow history buffs in the audience,

1100
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:07,960
Speaker 1: where can they learn more about stuff you missed? In

1101
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:08,720
Speaker 1: History class.

1102
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:12,000
Speaker 6: We are everywhere on social media as missed in History.

1103
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:15,000
Speaker 6: You can also go to missed Inhistory dot com and

1104
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:18,920
Speaker 6: find all of our episodes of all time going back

1105
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:22,760
Speaker 6: many years, and any of the episodes since Tracy and

1106
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:24,240
Speaker 6: I have been on the show, which has been since

1107
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:28,080
Speaker 6: twenty thirteen. We'll have show notes attached to them. So

1108
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 6: come and visit. We would love to meet you.

1109
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:31,840
Speaker 7: And if you want to check out more stuff they

1110
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 7: don't want you to know, you can do that by

1111
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 7: going to your podcast platform of choice and look up

1112
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 7: stuff that I want you to know.

1113
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 4: You can find us on Instagram and Twitter, and all.

1114
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 7: That stuff is conspiracy stuff, show conspiracy stuff or conspiracy.

1115
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:46,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, one or the other. Just keep it tying. Before

1116
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:48,840
Speaker 4: we wrap up entirely, though, I have a great question.

1117
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:50,680
Speaker 7: One thing I noticed when we were researching this is

1118
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:53,680
Speaker 7: there's not a lot of evidence in the writings and

1119
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:57,160
Speaker 7: the history of Marim Mandelbaum about her being some kind

1120
00:57:57,160 --> 00:58:03,240
Speaker 7: of ruthless, murderous person. Now a little violence in her story.

1121
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:06,080
Speaker 3: Well, here's the thing. When you're operating a criminal enterprise

1122
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:08,440
Speaker 3: like that, how how are you going to prove a

1123
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 3: lot of the things that happen in the basements of

1124
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:12,720
Speaker 3: you know, theaters before they get.

1125
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:14,280
Speaker 1: Excavated, right, I mean, good question.

1126
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:16,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like, really, how do you prove that stuff unless

1127
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 3: you get caught red handed or somebody leaks down information

1128
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:21,440
Speaker 3: to the authorities or.

1129
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:23,200
Speaker 1: Something like that, or a bribe arrives late.

1130
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:26,880
Speaker 3: Well exactly, how do we really know what was happening

1131
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:28,360
Speaker 3: her enterprise?

1132
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:31,640
Speaker 6: But her AMMO definitely does seem to have been kind

1133
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:33,400
Speaker 6: of more of a killing with kindness, like I will

1134
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 6: win everyone.

1135
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:35,560
Speaker 4: Over, right, because she was a diplomatic.

1136
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:38,040
Speaker 6: I think even the people and the situation with her

1137
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:41,200
Speaker 6: daughter's funeral is even evidence that even the people who

1138
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:45,360
Speaker 6: were positioned against her in terms of the battle of

1139
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:47,920
Speaker 6: legalities still kind of loved her.

1140
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:50,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to. I mean, you have to respect someone,

1141
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:55,560
Speaker 1: even if if you're diametrically opposed, because I'm gonna I'm

1142
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 1: gonna go ahead. And maybe it's speculation, but like you said, Holly,

1143
00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:01,120
Speaker 1: everything about her proves that she didn't get her hands

1144
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:05,040
Speaker 1: dirty and she would probably say that murder is bad

1145
00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:07,040
Speaker 1: for business when you think about it, right.

1146
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:11,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, again, thank you guys so much for having me.

1147
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:12,480
Speaker 7: Thank you.

1148
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:16,600
Speaker 1: Thanks to Warner Brothers. Please check out the kitchen if

1149
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:20,800
Speaker 1: you'd like to hear more stories about similarly badass women. Right.

1150
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:24,400
Speaker 3: It comes on Friday, August night, and I'm giving thumbs

1151
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:25,480
Speaker 3: up to everybody who's in the.

1152
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:28,680
Speaker 1: Audience, and thanks so much, thanks so much for coming.

1153
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:33,680
Speaker 1: We hope you enjoy the theater. The Gangster Museum is upstairs,

1154
00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:35,680
Speaker 1: by the way, if you ever in town and want

1155
00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:36,360
Speaker 1: to check that out.

1156
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:39,440
Speaker 4: Yes, you see us soon, Thank you, thank you.

1157
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:57,720
Speaker 3: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production

1158
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:01,360
Speaker 3: of Iheartradios How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

1159
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 3: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

1160
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:05,760
Speaker 3: to your favorite shows.