1 00:00:01,520 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's 3 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,479 Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is Stuff you 4 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 2: should Know g Man edition. 5 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, gee Man. 6 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 2: That's right. That's exactly what I meant. Gee Man, What 7 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 2: a rummy person Jay Garoover was. Yeah. 8 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 1: I got a couple of things to say at the beginning, 9 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: if I may, yes about j Edgar Hoover. 10 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:38,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, let's hear it. 11 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: Firstly, if you want to feel old, just realize that 12 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: you were alive when j Edgar Hoover was still running 13 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:51,919 Speaker 1: the FBI, like I am. Okay, I was like, oh 14 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: my god, nineteen seventy two, is that real? 15 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 2: Yeah? That's yeah. 16 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: So it makes me feel old, but also a testament 17 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: to his staying power. 18 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 2: No, I think it's more just you being able. 19 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: Okay. Number two, just quickly want to point out that 20 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: Jay Edgar is not related to Herbert Hoover. 21 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 2: Okay, hadn't even crossed my mind. What about the Hoover 22 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:14,839 Speaker 2: vacuum claim. 23 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: I don't know about that, but it crossed a lot 24 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: of people's minds about Herbert because he was Each of 25 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:22,279 Speaker 1: them were constantly having to sort of deflect that answer 26 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: or whatever, say that answer is not a two wins. Yeah. 27 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:33,839 Speaker 1: And Third, just like it's fascinating to study this guy 28 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: that I knew I feel like a little bit about 29 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: just from all the various things over the years, but 30 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 1: like what a enigma this guy was. Yeah, I think 31 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: because he operated in such secrecy, it's kind of impossible 32 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: to know a lot of stuff about him privately because 33 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: he held such power and sway over people as far 34 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: as like fear of Blackmai and stuff like that. Yeah, 35 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: that it's really interesting to like, you know, you read 36 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: five different historians and they may have five different takes 37 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: on aspects of his of who he was in his 38 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: private life and stuff like that. Right, it's really interesting. 39 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 2: Right. And for those of us who were born into 40 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 2: a world where Jayogar Hoover wasn't running. 41 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: The FBI, lucky you. 42 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 2: We came along at a really different period in how 43 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 2: people looked at him, Like essentially from his death onward, Yeah, 44 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 2: he's been looked at as like an American villain before that, 45 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 2: basically all the way up to his death, from essentially 46 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 2: the day he started at the FBI, America looked at 47 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 2: him as basically as a hero, essentially as a competent, 48 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 2: nonpartisan above the boards, not in any way, shape or 49 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:56,799 Speaker 2: form corrupt head of the FBI, a technocrat who believed 50 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:00,359 Speaker 2: in applying science and detection over things like hitting a 51 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 2: guy with a rubber hose to get answers out of him. Yeah, 52 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 2: he was a sea change and helped America fight off 53 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 2: the Red menace more than once. And like you said, 54 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 2: he was like it was really difficult to kind of 55 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,839 Speaker 2: discern like who he was even at the time when 56 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 2: he was in the news all the time. He served 57 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 2: eight presidents, four Democrats, four Republicans, three Green Party, and 58 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 2: he was the head of the FBI for like forty 59 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,639 Speaker 2: eight straight years. I also saw him described as the 60 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 2: most powerful civil servant America has ever. 61 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: Seen, oh easily, I think by a long shot. And 62 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: the reason he was able to serve those eight presidents 63 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: without getting fired, We'll talk a little bit about the 64 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: fact that part of that has to do with people 65 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: were legit sort of afraid of what this guy had 66 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: on them, as in everybody, including presidents, But a lot 67 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: of it was because of that popularity. I mean, I've 68 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: seen most people say, oh, it's because he had dirt 69 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: on all the presidents, and that's part of it for sure. 70 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: But I also saw that a lot of it was 71 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: because he was so popular that firing j. Edgar Hoover 72 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: would have been very bad for you politically, because people 73 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: loved him so much. 74 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 2: That was part of it. He also seemed to prove 75 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 2: to be too great a temptation for presidents to not 76 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 2: use and ultimately get into cahoots with him. 77 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:34,039 Speaker 1: Yeah, even left leaning progressives. Yeah, even FDR, that's the 78 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: guy I was talking about. 79 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 2: Even LBJ, Yeah, even JFK. Yeah. So yeah, there's a 80 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 2: lot to talk about with this guy, and a lot 81 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 2: of it, like you said, is unsubstantiated because he did 82 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 2: the smart thing and had all of his personal records 83 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 2: destroyed upon his death. He had a very dedicated secretary, 84 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 2: and so we'll just never know a lot of it. 85 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 2: But there is stuff that's so close to being confirmed 86 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 2: that it's like you can essentially say this is true. 87 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 2: Then there's other stuff it's like, what where are you 88 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 2: coming up with that? Yeah, it seems totally false. And 89 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 2: then in the middle there's the stuff where it's like, 90 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 2: really is it. It's entirely possible, it's true, but we 91 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 2: just don't know, and it's great for speculation either way. 92 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 2: The stuff we do know about turned him into a 93 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 2: reviled figure for sure. 94 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:29,919 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, And as you'll see during a lot of this, 95 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 1: the guy was also sort of a walking conundrum in 96 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 1: a lot of ways by doing things on one hand 97 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 1: that would seemingly find the face of things he's doing 98 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: on the other hand. And that'll all kind of come 99 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:44,799 Speaker 1: out as we go. But big shout out to Olivia, 100 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: who did a bang up job on this one. Yeah, agreed, 101 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: and also to a writer in this Olivia got some 102 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: information from this great book. A historian named Beverly Gage 103 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: from Yale University wrote a book in twenty twenty two 104 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 1: called g Man Colon Jay Edgar Hoover and the Making 105 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: of an American Century. 106 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty great stuff. 107 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. 108 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 2: So yeah, Beverly Gage is essentially like the definitive source 109 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 2: of Jaigar Hoover information right now. 110 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of Hoover bios and 111 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 1: they all some of them fly in the face of 112 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: each other with what they claim. It's pretty interesting, for sure. 113 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 2: So let's start at the beginning. Let's start when he 114 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 2: was born back in eighteen ninety five. That's right, it's 115 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 2: a long time ago. And one thing to know about 116 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 2: Jaegar Hoover is he was a DC boy, born and 117 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 2: bred his entire life. He was born in that city 118 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 2: and he died in that city. 119 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, he was born Capitol Hill and Seward Square and 120 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: comes came from a long line of family that worked 121 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 1: for the government. His dad, in particular, one Dickerson Naylor 122 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: Hoover great name, worked for something called the United States 123 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: Coast and Geodetic Survey, which was a scientific organization. And 124 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 1: you know, he had siblings. He had a sister that 125 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 1: died when he was three. It seems like his father 126 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: suffered from some mental illness and depression, which would ultimately 127 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: be the cause of his death in nineteen twenty one. 128 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: And you know, we can get into some sort of 129 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: armchair speculation on Hoover's mental condition maybe at the end. 130 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 2: Sure, I can't wait. 131 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: But when he was a kid, he was pretty shy. 132 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:28,679 Speaker 1: He was known as a mama's boy, had a very 133 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: sort of overbearing, doting mother. He had a stutter. Apparently 134 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: the stutter was so bad that he went about correcting 135 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: it by just talking really fast. And that kind of 136 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: ran through his life. I think there were court stenographer 137 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: or just stenographers period that couldn't keep up with him 138 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: on the job. He was so fast. 139 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, No, he had that very quick delivery. If you've 140 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 2: ever seen like a newsreel or any news footage of 141 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 2: him speaking or reading speech or something. But yeah, he 142 00:07:57,440 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 2: kind of took that on. He joined the debate team, 143 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 2: forced himself to do public speaking engagements, and he did 144 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 2: not like that kind of stuff, but he did it anyway, 145 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 2: because we'll see, he was a master of pr which 146 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 2: served him quite well. 147 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. 148 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 2: One of the other things about him is that his 149 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 2: mother impressed upon him a moral uprightness that actually kind 150 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 2: of converted into a moral righteousness where there was a 151 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 2: there was a specific way to be an American in 152 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 2: Jaugar Hoover's mind, and anybody who ran a foul of 153 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 2: that thought otherwise was an enemy of America and should 154 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 2: be treated accordingly. And unfortunately there's plenty of people walking 155 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 2: around there. That's the that's the definition of a fascist. 156 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:44,439 Speaker 2: So he was a total fascist, if you hadn't figured 157 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:49,079 Speaker 2: that out by now, But he he had the power 158 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 2: to actually make enemies out of the people he considered 159 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 2: an American who were still Americans. They just didn't see 160 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 2: America exactly the same way Jaegar Hoover did. 161 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. His mom's name was Annie, and Judy Dinsch 162 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: played her in the Clint Eastwood movie that starred Leo DiCaprio. 163 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 2: Did you see it? 164 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: I never saw it. It got pretty bad reviews, so 165 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: it just didn't draw me in. But yeah, Leo played Hoover, 166 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: Dinch played his mom, and as we'll see, Armie Hammer 167 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: played his Well, let's just save that one, I guess, okay, 168 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: even though it's no big secret, we'll just save it, okay, 169 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,319 Speaker 1: his coworker, let's just say that, yeah. 170 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:33,319 Speaker 2: His close associate. 171 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. 172 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 2: So yeah, So he had this view of America that 173 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 2: he carried with him his whole way in what it 174 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:44,199 Speaker 2: meant to be an upright American. He also was really 175 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,559 Speaker 2: really good at organizing. So like the way you think 176 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 2: of like a government bureaucracy today, where there's tons of 177 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 2: files and all sorts of like people whose job it 178 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 2: is to access those files, and they do it to 179 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 2: varying degrees as success. Jigger Hoover actually kind of built 180 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 2: that what's called the administrative state. You can actually thank 181 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,559 Speaker 2: him for that. He not only built the FBI, he 182 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 2: made the federal government this kind of administrative power like 183 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 2: it is. 184 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely. He learned a lot of that at 185 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: one of his first jobs after high school, got a 186 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: job at the Library of Congress, and that's where he 187 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:25,439 Speaker 1: really got into just sort of categorizing stuff, collecting information. 188 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: He got a Master of Law degree from GW from 189 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:35,439 Speaker 1: George Washington University in nineteen seventeen. And the only reason 190 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 1: we mentioned this is because it sort of plays into 191 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: his massive amount of cronyism. He was a KA, joined 192 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: the KA fraternity there, which is a very southern you know, 193 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: it was like a they celebrate the Confederacy. It was 194 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 1: like a Roberty Leasing. I remember even at Georgia, the 195 00:10:54,400 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: Ka's were, and I imagine still are, just very confederate. 196 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great word for they. 197 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 1: Just like Confederate pride, that whole thing. Those are the Ka's. 198 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: And as we'll see, a lot of those Kas and 199 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: people that he knew ended up getting jobs from him directly. 200 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: So lots of cronyism happening. 201 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 2: Yes, for sure. So also he became a clerk at 202 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 2: World War One, which at the DOJ, and that kept 203 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 2: him out of the draft, but also was his true 204 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 2: first step into his government service. Library of Congress. Yeah, 205 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 2: that was essentially the beginning. But this was the true beginning, 206 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 2: because very quickly he was assigned pretty substantial duties, including 207 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,599 Speaker 2: overseeing what was called the General Intelligence Division. This was 208 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 2: a part of the Department of Justice. If those three words, 209 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 2: the General Intelligence Division, don't run a chill down your spine. 210 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 2: You're not listening closely. 211 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: That's something out of Brazil, exactly right. 212 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 2: So he was the head of this and this guy 213 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 2: at the time, he was, let's see, twenty four years old, 214 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 2: and he's running the General Intelligence Division for the DOJ. 215 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 2: And the whole point of the GID was to investigate radicals, leftists, anarchists, communists. 216 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 2: There was a big red scare from nineteen nineteen to 217 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 2: nineteen twenty. And his whole jam was to apply his 218 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 2: everything he'd learned and developed at the Library of Congress 219 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 2: to everything he wanted to do in law enforcement. And 220 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 2: he created massive files on immigrants to America, and basically 221 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 2: it was like, this is an immigrant, they are loyal 222 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 2: or disloyal, They like communism or like capitalism, and just 223 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 2: amassed all of these files and they eventually turned them 224 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 2: into what were known as the Palmer Raids, where they 225 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,679 Speaker 2: just went into these people's homes and said, Jaegar Hoover 226 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 2: and the GID thinks you're disloyal, come with us. We're 227 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 2: deporting you. Forget your civil liberties, Forget the fact that 228 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,559 Speaker 2: you're a naturalized American citizen. Now doesn't matter. 229 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, this was a big deal. Maybe we can do 230 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 1: something on the Palmer Raids in full at some point, 231 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: but just kind of in a nutshell, the Attorney General, 232 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 1: A Mitchell Palmer, had his house was bombed. There was 233 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: a guy named an anarchist named Carlo Valdanocci who the 234 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: bomb went off early, so it kind of blew up 235 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: the front of his house along with the bomber himself. 236 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: There were other bombs mail to mayors and senators and 237 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,599 Speaker 1: business leaders. So there was a real sort of anarchist 238 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:40,719 Speaker 1: you know, mail bombing, cookbook thing happening. Yeah, cookbook going on. 239 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: But the response was the Palmer Raids, which was just 240 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: a nightmare of an operation. It was really kind of 241 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: an unconstitutional disaster where like you said, a lot of 242 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 1: these high profile deportations like straight to Russia when many 243 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: of these people are just like, didn't even know what 244 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: they were talking about, Right, I. 245 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,079 Speaker 2: Make bagels, leave me alone kind of thing, right. 246 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think his list was four hundred 247 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 1: and fifty thousand long, and like, how many real leftist 248 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 1: radicals were there? 249 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly right, And there were also tons of cases 250 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 2: of mistaken identity. Like it was a catastrophe. They the 251 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 2: Palmer Raids so ran a foul of civil liberties. They 252 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 2: actually created things like the ACLU and other civil liberties 253 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 2: groups to defend against stuff like that ever happening again. 254 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 2: But what's miraculous is that the head of all this, 255 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 2: the guy who was in charge of actually executing the 256 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 2: Palmer Raids, was Jagger Hoover, and he survived politically and 257 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 2: went on to actually step upward from that point on. 258 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 2: Some people are like, you need to keep that guy 259 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 2: away from the levers of power, yeah, because of what 260 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 2: he just did. And other people are like, I don't 261 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 2: like the cut of that guy's jib. Yeah, I think, 262 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 2: And the people who liked the cut of his jib 263 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 2: they won out. 264 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: I did say, that's a good cliffhanger, But you made 265 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: it an even better cliffhanger with that last line. So 266 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: let's come back a and we'll talk about where the 267 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: FBI comes into play. Yeah. 268 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 2: I can add some more lines if you want me 269 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 2: to make it even better. 270 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: No, I think you made it just perfect. Okay, all right, 271 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: So we promised talk of the FBI. Initially, and we've 272 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: said this on other episodes, it was called the Bureau 273 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: Investigations at first. It was formed in nineteen eight basically 274 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: to say, hey, US Attorney General, you need some teeth, 275 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: here's your own law enforcement organization. Became the FBI in 276 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty five, and early on was kind of interested 277 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: in corporate criminals, radicalism and a real kind of from 278 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: the beginning, a real crackdown and obsession with sex work. 279 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: Yeah the man act, right, Yeah, big deal. And it 280 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: was also very corrupt and didn't have the best reputation 281 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: until Coolidge came along in nineteen twenty four and hired 282 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: a guy named Harlan fisk Stone to reform the DOJ 283 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: and kind of just clean house and get the FBI 284 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: in good standing. 285 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, which is amazing that they're like, Hoover, why don't 286 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 2: you take over? But that's exactly what they did. They 287 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 2: made him acting director of the Bureau of Investigation starting 288 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 2: in I think the same year Harlan Stone came in 289 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 2: nineteen twenty four. 290 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, and they got rid of that GID by the. 291 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 2: Way they did, but it just went away essentially in name, 292 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 2: not spirit by any measure. And again, just like at 293 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 2: the GID, Jaeger Hoover said about applying the principles of bureaucracy, 294 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,920 Speaker 2: of organization and of science too. He was a true 295 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 2: believer in science to this nascent Bureau of Investigation. And 296 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 2: one of the stunning statistics I ran across that really 297 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 2: gets across his just how much of an impact he 298 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,880 Speaker 2: had on the FBI when he took it over. Over 299 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 2: the course of ten years, I think up to nineteen 300 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 2: thirty six, they amassed a huge collection of fingerprints, like 301 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 2: one hundred thousand fingerprints, and they had people whose entire 302 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 2: job it was to go look up the fingerprints and 303 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:54,120 Speaker 2: bring them for analysis. Right ten years later, in nineteen 304 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 2: forty six, they had one hundred million sets of fingerprints 305 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 2: and there was only one hundred and forty million people 306 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 2: who lived in America at the time. 307 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:05,400 Speaker 1: That's crazy, man. 308 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. 309 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 1: Wow. He also created like a forensic lab. He created 310 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: the FBI Academy, Like he really not only kind of 311 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,880 Speaker 1: brought their reputation back, but like you said, he organized 312 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: them in a way that where they operated like a 313 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: like a like a humming machine. 314 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:27,120 Speaker 2: Right, and people respected that, they admired it like it 315 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 2: was you know, it really fit in with FDR's New 316 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,880 Speaker 2: Deal thing of like, hey, your government is big and 317 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 2: for a reason, like we can do all sorts of 318 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 2: amazing competent, capable stuff to make the life of the 319 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 2: average person greater. 320 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 1: Look at all these fingerprints exactly. 321 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 2: I don't know if it necessarily fit in with the 322 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 2: New Deal. But one of the other things that Jaeger 323 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 2: Hoover did was he instituted this these policies that when 324 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 2: you put them all together, basically made it required every 325 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 2: FBI agent to be ned Flanders essentially. And he did 326 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 2: that because he wanted he wanted his people to seem 327 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 2: above reproach. Because at the time, the idea of like 328 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 2: law enforcement was that if they weren't incompetent, then they 329 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 2: were crooked, or maybe they were both. Like there was 330 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 2: not like a lot of public regard for law enforcement. 331 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 2: So he wanted to make sure that his particular agency 332 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 2: separated itself from that, like put itself head and shoulders, 333 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 2: you know, like the way that in any movie the 334 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 2: FBI agents come in and just completely take control of 335 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 2: like the investigation or the crime scene or whatever. Oh yeah, 336 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 2: that was essentially that came from Hoover, like he created 337 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 2: this image of the FBI agents is so uber competent 338 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 2: that no one would would challenge them if they did 339 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:49,880 Speaker 2: walk into a crime scene and take over. 340 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. And if you remember seeing a lot of movies 341 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:57,199 Speaker 1: that had FBI agents portrayed as like a tall, handsome 342 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: white guys, is because FBI agents were largely almost roundly 343 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: tall handsome white guys. He hired a lot of his 344 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: again with the cronyism, a lot of his alums from GW, 345 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: a lot of Ka's. He kept the FBI from bringing 346 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 1: a class of civil service, so he didn't have you know, 347 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: he could basically flo out any rules that would have 348 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,640 Speaker 1: forced him to have like a to look at any 349 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: kind of diverse applicant. So he wanted white men that 350 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 1: were good looking. Again as a pr move, it was, 351 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: it was a popular thing at the time. Ironically, in 352 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: the forties, Ebony magazine did a feature on like black 353 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: employees of the FBI, and Hoover even helped them with 354 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: this because it was a pr thing. But they were 355 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,400 Speaker 1: all valets. None of them were agents because there were 356 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:50,120 Speaker 1: no black agents, right. 357 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, And like you said, the way he got around 358 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,439 Speaker 2: that was to accept the FBI from civil service. And 359 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:58,360 Speaker 2: I was like, how did he do that? And how 360 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 2: did he get away with that? And there's something called 361 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 2: accepted service, and it's where you don't you're not that 362 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 2: agency is not subject to the same laws and requirements 363 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,959 Speaker 2: as a civil service agency is. But the reason he 364 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 2: was doing is he was saying, like, some of these 365 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 2: laws are letting people in government who are just really 366 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 2: slack keep their jobs, and I can't have that in 367 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,879 Speaker 2: the FBI. I have to have top notch, crack people 368 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,399 Speaker 2: who I'm able to fire if they don't meet our standards. 369 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 2: I think that's how he was able to get the 370 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 2: FBI out of civil service classification. 371 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you mentioned ned Flanders. He wanted them to be, 372 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: like you said, sort of beyond reproach and morally upright. 373 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: So he insisted that they not drink alcohol at least 374 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 1: sort of on the job, like you know, have the 375 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 1: Martinis at lunch kind of thing. Apparently he was a 376 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 1: big Martini guy, but as the story goes, only after work, 377 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: only two martinis. And then later in life when he 378 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: was in you know, sort of older and not in 379 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 1: the best of health, his doctor said he can't drink 380 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: Martini's more. And he was like, well, that's not going 381 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: to happen, and he said, all right, cut down to 382 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: one martini then, and he said sure, And as as 383 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: legend has it, he had his staff by larger Martini 384 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: glasses and then dropped it down to one. 385 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was something I saw. There was a Frontline 386 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,719 Speaker 2: episode from years and years ago called the File on 387 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 2: Jay Edgar Hoover, and a lot of it seems totally 388 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 2: off the rails and unbelievable for good reason. But some 389 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 2: of the stuff that he had the FBI staff do 390 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 2: for him was so above and beyond what any agency 391 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 2: staff should be doing for the director. Like they replaced 392 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 2: his grass once because he didn't like the color green, 393 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 2: sod all, just stuff like that. So I totally believe 394 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 2: that he had his FBI staff buy bigger Martini glasses 395 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 2: for his home. That was totally in line with what 396 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,640 Speaker 2: how he treated the Bureau. It was his own kingdom, 397 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,959 Speaker 2: and little by little he made it. So it's not 398 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 2: like he came into it and somebody handed him the 399 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 2: keys and said, good luck, go make this agency that's 400 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 2: so powerful it is essentially a fourth branch of government. 401 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 2: He built it little by little, bit by bit, dirt 402 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 2: by dirt, favor by favor, and it became the It 403 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:27,719 Speaker 2: got to the point fairly quickly where he could do 404 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 2: stuff like that and no one would say anything about it. 405 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, all right. So let's go to the nineteen thirties. 406 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,159 Speaker 1: This was, as Livia called that we love our golden ages, 407 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: and this may have been the golden age of the FBI. 408 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 1: This is when, through pr and as we'll see through 409 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 1: movies and television and through sort of him helping to 410 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 1: control the news machine, the FBI were heroes. They had 411 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: fans like people love these g men. And we'll get 412 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: to that. Well, you might as well say, I think 413 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 1: g men was supposedly coined by machine gun Kelly, the 414 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 1: good One, who in nineteen is either one of them 415 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,879 Speaker 1: good all right? In nineteen thirty three, yell, don't shoot 416 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: g men like government men. But he sort of formed 417 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties, this image that actually, like you know, 418 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: there were little little boys and maybe some girls, but 419 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 1: definitely little boys running around the schoolyard like playing g men. 420 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: They wanted to be g men. They were sort of 421 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 1: superstars because they would bust high profile bank robbers. And 422 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,880 Speaker 1: he just you know, he jumped in on the Lindberg 423 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: baby kidnapping, which you know, horrified a nation. He apparently 424 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: didn't have any legal jurisdiction. But like you said, Jay 425 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: Edgar Hoover walks onto the scene, is like, we're taking 426 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: over now, and no one's going to stand in his way. 427 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 2: No, not at all. But and in doing those kind 428 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 2: of things, he just built the reputation for the FBI 429 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,359 Speaker 2: by leaps and bounds. One of the things that he 430 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 2: did that was so masterful in taking on the gangsters 431 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 2: was to not try to dissuade the public from glorifying them. Yeah, 432 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:15,360 Speaker 2: so the gangsters were just amazing folk heroes, but the 433 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 2: FBI was even greater because they're the ones taking down 434 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 2: these amazing folk cares. Like that the gangsters are here, 435 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 2: but man that your average FBI agent is head and 436 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,159 Speaker 2: shoulders above them, because he's gonna get them sooner. Or 437 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 2: later and probably kill him in a shootout in front 438 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,400 Speaker 2: of a house or a theater or something like that. 439 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 2: And so he was able to play off of the 440 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 2: public's fascination with gangsters and use that kind of parlay 441 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 2: the FBI's reputation above it. 442 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is kind of called the public enemy era 443 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 1: as well, because he would use that term for people 444 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: like John Dillinger. I mean, this guy Dillinger was robbing banks. 445 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,399 Speaker 1: He was a bank robber, but to call someone a 446 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 1: public enemy like it almost elevated them in his own way, 447 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: to folk hero status, but also like folk villain status, 448 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 1: I guess is a better way to say it. 449 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, for sure, Like is. 450 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: A bank robber really a public enemy? I mean, it's 451 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,360 Speaker 1: not a great thing to do well. 452 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 2: Supposedly in nineteen thirty three thirty four, there was a 453 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,120 Speaker 2: massive crime wave and there were a lot of murders 454 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 2: going on. People were like gangsters were shooting each other 455 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 2: in the streets over turf like it was yeh shots. Yeah, 456 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 2: so yeah there, I mean, yeah, just a straight up 457 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 2: bank robber, probably not. But these guys were doing any 458 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,439 Speaker 2: and all crime. They were like criminals of all trades. 459 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:38,640 Speaker 2: From what I could tell. 460 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: Okay, public enemies in other. 461 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 2: Words, so yeah, but at the same time, yes, it 462 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 2: was a huge publicity thing too, this public enemy number one. 463 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, number one was Dillinger, right. 464 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 2: But there were other public enemies number one, but he 465 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 2: was the first public enemy number one, I think. 466 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: Oh, so there was number A two. He just kept 467 00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 1: moving the number one mantle around. 468 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 2: Well, he'd just kill off the numbers. Whoever was below 469 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 2: them would come up and become number one. 470 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 1: I guess, I guess that makes sense. 471 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 2: So one of the ways that he shaped public opinion 472 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:13,239 Speaker 2: too was directly by working with journalists, by working with 473 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 2: film and TV producers and writers, and he actually created 474 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,440 Speaker 2: a branch in the FBI called the Crime Records Division, 475 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 2: which sounds very innocuous, but it turns out that they 476 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 2: were the ones who were in charge of generating pro 477 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 2: FBI propaganda and making sure it got out there in 478 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 2: the media. 479 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean this, this is where it gets truly 480 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: sort of nuts. He had, at one point sort of 481 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: de facto final cut on movies that were being produced. 482 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 1: He had approval or denial of casting choices, like literally 483 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,119 Speaker 1: he approved Jimmy Stewart, you know, as I can't remember 484 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 1: what movie it was, even in a movie as like 485 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,919 Speaker 1: the lead in the movie. After like interviewing him, he 486 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: interviewed Jimmy Stewart gave him the job or you know 487 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: him the stamp of approval. It apparently didn't like that 488 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: Jimmy Cagney was portraying gangsters, so he said, you can 489 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 1: do it as long as you quote get killed in 490 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,639 Speaker 1: the end and make sure that you're dead, because no 491 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 1: gangsters were supposed to live in any of the movies 492 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 1: or TV shows. And he even has three writer credits 493 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,159 Speaker 1: and one one acting credit. I think the writing credits 494 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: were generally stuff based on cases that he was involved in, 495 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,120 Speaker 1: so they gave him. He may have insisted on a credit. 496 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,439 Speaker 1: I don't know, but he does have one actor credit. 497 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 1: He was a narrator on a film called The Next 498 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 1: of Kin. 499 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 2: Wow. So was he was deep in yeah, Oh, he 500 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 2: was deep into everything in anything that was going on 501 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 2: in American life above or below the boards. 502 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 1: From what I can tell, yeah, or the line. 503 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 2: So the gangster Eric kind of went away in the 504 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 2: mid to late thirties. I mean, there are plenty of 505 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 2: gangsters still, but there was a there was a changeover. 506 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 2: It went from like bank robbing, cow murdering bandits like 507 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 2: John Dillinger, and started to become organized crime, the mafia, 508 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 2: the mob. And at that point, as it started to 509 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 2: kind of branch out and become well as lem as 510 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 2: legitimized as the mafia can be and organized, Jagger Hoover 511 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 2: stopped paying attention to the gangsters and instead turned his 512 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 2: attention to political surveillance again instead. 513 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think his whole deal. I did a little 514 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: more research into the mafia thing. The mafia was a problem, 515 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 1: but he didn't see the mafia as a threat to 516 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 1: the American way of life as he defined it. Communism 517 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: for sure, rabble rousing civil rights leaders for sure, as 518 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 1: we'll see the gay and lesbian community for sure. All 519 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: of that threatened this sort of idyllic, old fashioned way 520 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: of American life as he saw it. The mafia didn't, necessarily, 521 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 1: so he was never as concerned with him as he 522 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: probably should have been. He was like, let the cops handle. 523 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 2: That, so okay, And that totally makes sense, and because 524 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 2: it's the simplest explanation, it's probably correct. But there is 525 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 2: such a thread of thought that Jaegar Hoover was either 526 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 2: compromised and the mafia had him in a compromising position, 527 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 2: and or he was friends with, if not actual mobsters, 528 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 2: friends of mobsters, he was in their world him personally. 529 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 2: Publicly he was the head of the FBI, and he 530 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 2: carried out all of the crime fighting and leftist rousting 531 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 2: and all that stuff. But privately, if these even half 532 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 2: of these stories are to be believed, he was a crook, 533 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 2: a total crook with a gambling problem, and who was 534 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 2: in the pocket of the because they had dirt on him. 535 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 2: I saw another explanation that said, yes, he actually purposely 536 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 2: ignored the mafia, not because they had like compromising pictures 537 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 2: of him, but because they were in cahoots with a 538 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 2: lot of elected officials, and he didn't want to lose 539 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 2: his position going after the mafia and having them get 540 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 2: all of their elected official friends turning on him, because 541 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 2: he didn't know if he could survive that kind of thing. 542 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 2: That was another explanation I saw. But whatever, whatever the 543 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 2: interpretation is, historically speaking, he ignored the mafia and actually 544 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,239 Speaker 2: denied for a decade after it was clear there was 545 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 2: such a thing as a national syndicate of mafioso mafio ci. Yeah, mafios. 546 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 2: He kept denying it, like actively denying it, and apparently 547 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 2: moved to kind of thwart some of the federal and 548 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 2: congressional investigations into the distance of the mafia, like he 549 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 2: personally was trying to not at least not help, if 550 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 2: not actively disrupt that. So there's something weird going on. 551 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 2: Exactly what was behind it, though, well we'll probably never know. 552 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, what's interesting is that when I was reading through 553 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: interviews with different biographers, and you would see too that 554 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 1: were just so diametrically opposed in what they thought, like, oh, 555 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: and they're all very convinced that they're right. But it 556 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 1: almost seems like some of these biographies are either written 557 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: by literal fans of his still or then, or people 558 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: that hated him. 559 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like if you start looking into like some of 560 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 2: the more salacious charges about him and like why the 561 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 2: mafia was allowed to just operate, you mostly have to 562 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 2: take the word of old mafia guys right, who were 563 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 2: like there for sure, Like this guy really was the 564 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 2: right hand man to Mayor Lansky, But can you believe 565 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 2: him when he sits for an interview talking about how 566 00:32:57,840 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 2: Mayor Lansky had pictures that he used to show as 567 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 2: friends for fun of Jaeger Hoover, you know, having sex 568 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 2: with his partner, you know, like it's you really kind 569 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 2: of have to stop and say, where's this, where's this 570 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 2: source coming from? And what all what acts they have 571 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 2: to grind? 572 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 1: So here's what I say, this is, this is going 573 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: so good and it's going long. So why don't we 574 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 1: take another break, come back and do a little more. 575 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: But let's let's make this a two partner what you 576 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 1: should should we? 577 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 2: You just totally sprung this on me out of the blue. 578 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 2: Let me think about it. 579 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: Okay, we'll think about it over the break and we'll 580 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 1: be right back. 581 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 2: Okay, Chuck, I've decided that is a fine idea. 582 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 1: So should we chat a little bit. I think you 583 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: sort of teased and then I got us off topic 584 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,959 Speaker 1: about the mafia. You tease a little bit about going 585 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: into sort of the beginnings of the surveillance and working 586 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 1: tightly with presidents, right. 587 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I said something like that, but like 588 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 2: there was at the end of the gangster era. He 589 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 2: kind of swapped over to from like continuing on with gangsters, 590 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 2: which would make total sense for the FBI to do 591 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 2: this to instead turning his attention back to political stuff. Yeah, 592 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:50,360 Speaker 2: to disrupting any kind of political thought that goes against 593 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 2: the American way as envisioned by jaygar Hoover. 594 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, And one of the ways he did this was 595 00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:01,319 Speaker 1: by allying himself closely with the presidents. You know, you 596 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: said at the beginning, work for eight different presidents, and 597 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 1: I think, as it's generally thought that he was super 598 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 1: tight and kind of close to two of them. Two 599 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 1: of them didn't like him, and four just sort of 600 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 1: played ball because they felt like they had to. 601 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 2: So I can guess Kennedy definitely didn't like him, and 602 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 2: that was reciprocal. Who was the other one who didn't 603 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:24,439 Speaker 2: like him? 604 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 1: I think it was Kennedy and Johnson. 605 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:30,799 Speaker 2: I thought Johnson loved the guy. 606 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:33,479 Speaker 1: Well, I know Nixon did. 607 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was personally friends with Nixon. 608 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 1: And I know FDR. I don't know how much he 609 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: liked him. But the fact that they ended up, you know, 610 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: working closely with one another is maybe one of the 611 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:51,359 Speaker 1: bigger surprises of the episode, because they were pretty diametrically 612 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 1: opposed as humans go. 613 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, but this is kind of like touching on what 614 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 2: I was saying before that there were presidents who saw 615 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,400 Speaker 2: him and what he could do as too useful to 616 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 2: resist exactly. And FDR was like, he had this vision 617 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 2: for America too, and it was much more inclusive, and 618 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:14,840 Speaker 2: it cared much more about the average person who didn't 619 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 2: necessarily think exactly the same way as everybody else. But 620 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,799 Speaker 2: he also didn't want it disrupted by communists or at 621 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 2: the time Nazis either. Yeah, so he saw it as 622 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 2: a useful thing to do, like to kind of keep 623 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:32,319 Speaker 2: tabs on it. And I guess from this idea of 624 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 2: Jaegar Hoover and presidents working in coots, it seems like 625 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,439 Speaker 2: FDR is the first one that this really begins with. 626 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,759 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think in nineteen thirty six, in August that year, 627 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: they met together at the White House and they ginned 628 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: up a plan for surveillance, kind of the first big 629 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 1: surveillance launch of like you said, people who they thought 630 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 1: might be communists, people who they thought might be fascist. 631 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,399 Speaker 1: A few years later, Roosevelt was like, Hey, it turns 632 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 1: out you're pretty good at this surveillance thing and keeping 633 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:12,320 Speaker 1: secret files, So why don't you why don't we resurrect 634 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: that General Intelligence Intelligence division that was scuttled, And Hoover 635 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,879 Speaker 1: probably laughed and was like, you know, we've still been 636 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:21,440 Speaker 1: doing it this whole time. We just didn't have a 637 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: formal name. 638 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:23,799 Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know if I'll be able to get 639 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 2: the gang back to. 640 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 1: But they secretly reformalized at least the gid and Hoover said, 641 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,359 Speaker 1: all right, I appreciate that, and you know what I'm 642 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,800 Speaker 1: gonna do for you. I'll just not even at your direction. 643 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,799 Speaker 1: I'll just keep an eye on your political enemies and 644 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 1: just if I need to let you know anything, I'll 645 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 1: let you know. 646 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. So supposedly that is one of the ways that 647 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 2: he kept power. He never blackmailed anybody, but if one 648 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 2: of his agents came across some juicy tidbit, he would 649 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 2: he would send them to, you know, say the Senator's 650 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,719 Speaker 2: office and be like, Senator, we were investigate this other thing, 651 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 2: and this tidbit about you came up, and we really 652 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:04,360 Speaker 2: thought it was the kind of thing you'd want to know. 653 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 2: We're keeping a lid on it. Don't worry about it 654 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 2: what we thought you'd want to know. And now the 655 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 2: Senator's like, oh my god, this guy knows these The 656 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,840 Speaker 2: FBI knows that I have this. I'm on this committee 657 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 2: that funds them. I should probably give them whatever they 658 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 2: want whenever they ask for it. That's apparently how we operate. 659 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:25,359 Speaker 1: It's very passive, aggressive, strong arming. Yeah, he did have 660 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 1: a we should mention though since fronam my FDR. He 661 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: had a very famously had a file on Eleanor Roosevelt, 662 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 1: which a thick one supposedly had nude pictures of Eleanor 663 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 1: Roosevelt that were given to j Edgar Hoover by W. C. Fields. 664 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:50,399 Speaker 1: What that's He had a tremendous collection of pornography, right, 665 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 1: was well known for it, and to j Edgar Hoover 666 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:56,120 Speaker 1: he would say, well, I've got I got to know 667 00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 1: what's out there in order to fight this stuff everyone 668 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:03,799 Speaker 1: else Okay, sure, whatever. Yeah, but he supposedly had a 669 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:10,720 Speaker 1: very large collection of nudes of famous people, Marilyn Monroe's 670 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,920 Speaker 1: among them. But apparently Eleanor Roosevelt was one and old W. C. 671 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,239 Speaker 1: Fields gave it to him. Wow, I don't know how 672 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:17,239 Speaker 1: he got it. 673 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:22,200 Speaker 2: I don't either, So okay, Chuck, do you want to 674 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,120 Speaker 2: do you want to put part two here and come 675 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,000 Speaker 2: back and pick up at the beginning of the Cold War, 676 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,319 Speaker 2: because now Jagar Hoover's fighting, you know, communists, but more 677 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 2: often Nazis. America is entering World War two, and America's 678 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 2: really cool with the idea of the FBI rooting out Nazis. 679 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,320 Speaker 2: But World War Two came to an end, believe it 680 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,880 Speaker 2: or not, the Nazis went away. Now they needed a 681 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:45,239 Speaker 2: new enemy to investigate. 682 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,439 Speaker 1: That's right, the Commi's and that seems like a great 683 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: place to stop. 684 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 2: Yes, so yeah, we'll see you guys in part two. 685 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 2: And if you want to send us an email in 686 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,600 Speaker 2: the meantime, send it off to Stuff podcast at iHeartRadio 687 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:01,600 Speaker 2: dot com. 688 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,640 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 689 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,920 Speaker 1: more podcasts myheart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 690 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:11,880 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.