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Speaker 1: Welcome to Crime Round Up.

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Speaker 2: Joshua Schiffer, What in the world it's like every day?

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Speaker 2: Me and you just laugh, like, are we going to

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Speaker 2: ever have, you know, an issue with thinking of a topic.

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Speaker 3: I wish people could just drop in on some of

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Speaker 3: the conversations that you and I have, that you and

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Speaker 3: I have with other people, because it's not like there's

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Speaker 3: a manual whether we get delivered every morning where it's

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Speaker 3: the oh, here's what we're going to be covering this

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Speaker 3: week and next week and here's what's going to happen. No,

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Speaker 3: this is live right, this is real life unfolding. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and it's real stories. You know, it's amazing, you know,

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Speaker 3: in looking and when you and I are talking about

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Speaker 3: what we want to talk about, and then we see

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Speaker 3: this case and boom, there's Cheryl involved with a case

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Speaker 3: that how many years did it take to get to

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Speaker 3: Fulton County and it just starts up today.

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Speaker 2: Starts up today, Yes, sir, and we're going to talk

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Speaker 2: about that one.

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Speaker 3: We also had a huge loss in the legal kind

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Speaker 3: of universe a name that kind of the gray hairs

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Speaker 3: will know a little bit more than the younger people

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Speaker 3: because he was an elderly man and his name's Jerry

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Speaker 3: Spence with a G.

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Speaker 4: He really if you are a.

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Speaker 3: Fan, which you are of televised and media coverage of

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Speaker 3: legal he is a great grandfather.

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Speaker 2: You know what, Joshua, I'm gonna stop you because I

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Speaker 2: think we need to do a proper homage to him.

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Speaker 2: And I'm going to toss it to you because I

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Speaker 2: saw your post, I saw the pictures.

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Speaker 1: I know what this person.

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Speaker 2: Meant to you, and I think you and you alone

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Speaker 2: should take a moment to honor him and speak about

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Speaker 2: him and make sure that we know all facets of

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Speaker 2: him to truly understand what everybody's thinking. So I'm going

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Speaker 2: to let you have the microphone by yourself and talk

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Speaker 2: about your friend.

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Speaker 3: And he was a friend, and yeah, this is someone

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Speaker 3: who has met everybody in ninety six years. He was

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Speaker 3: a lawyer that every lawyer looked at and said, Wow,

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Speaker 3: that is a powerful advocate. He's one of those guys

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Speaker 3: or women, and you meet a few of them in

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Speaker 3: your life that no matter what your persuasion, the moment

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Speaker 3: they walk in the room, everyone is captured by their presence,

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Speaker 3: by their zeal for life, by their control of the room.

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Speaker 3: And it's what made Jerry a legitimate master of trial work.

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Speaker 3: And we're talking about someone who one of his calling

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Speaker 3: cards was he hadn't lost a case since the late

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Speaker 3: nineteen sixties. He never lost a similar word, and he

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Speaker 3: had tried. When you go back into the first big

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Speaker 3: cases that were covered by national media starting in the

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Speaker 3: sixties and seventies, we're talking about Karen Silkwood, we're talking

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Speaker 3: about the first mass torts. We're talking about Emelda Marcos,

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Speaker 3: Randy Weaver. Cases that were important not just for lawyers

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Speaker 3: and people who appreciate law and order and follow crime people.

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Speaker 3: These are the cases that affected the entire nation. And

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Speaker 3: Jerry had an ability to synthesize complex issues in a

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Speaker 3: way that was very approachable, and he was incredibly adept

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Speaker 3: at reacting and interacting with people on a level that's

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Speaker 3: just different from most lawyers and absolutely different from the

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Speaker 3: way lawyers and the legal system worked back in that day.

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Speaker 3: But more importantly, after winning all those cases, Jerry turned

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Speaker 3: around and with several other incredible lawyers, psychologists, judges, Judge Rose,

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Speaker 3: Bill Ackerman, John Nolty who is a famous psychologist, Bill Trine,

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Speaker 3: they founded this group called the tri Lawyers College out

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Speaker 3: at Jerry's ranch, which is in one of the most

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Speaker 3: inhospitable and remote parts of Wyoming Upper Road that you

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Speaker 3: can't get up most of the year, half the year

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Speaker 3: a dirt road into a national park that's twenty miles long.

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Speaker 3: And when you wander around the ranch, the next door

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Speaker 3: neighbor is the Shoshone People Reservation, the Wind River Reservation,

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Speaker 3: that movie that came out two three years ago, wind River.

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Speaker 3: That's where his ranch is. And if you wander away,

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Speaker 3: you're going to die.

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Speaker 4: Every year we.

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Speaker 3: Would have students and people that would have something happen

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Speaker 3: because of the inhospitability of the land. And what Jerry

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Speaker 3: did is he invited every year for about three or

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Speaker 3: four weeks, fifty or so lawyers and about fifty or

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Speaker 3: so volunteer lawyer teachers. And Jerry had developed a trial

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Speaker 3: technique and pathway and a toolkit involving the use of psychodrama,

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Speaker 3: which is a psychological toolkit developed by doctor Moreno. And

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Speaker 3: it's experiential. You can't teach it. You got to do it,

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Speaker 3: and you have to do it seriously. So we would

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Speaker 3: literally self segregate ourselves for three weeks. This is no phone,

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Speaker 3: there's no cell phones out there, you were out, You

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Speaker 3: were cut on purpose, and it allowed you the opportunity

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Speaker 3: to do the self discovery and work on the horse.

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Speaker 3: Work on yourself, because a ten thousand dollars saddle doesn't

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Speaker 3: do squad if it's on a nag of a horse

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Speaker 3: and you can dress it up all you want, doesn't

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Speaker 3: matter a damn thing if that horse ain't a good horse.

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Speaker 3: So work on the horse, and you're the horse and

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Speaker 3: the way. One of the penultimate questions, how do you

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Speaker 3: tell your client story? If you can't tell your story,

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Speaker 3: if you don't know your story. And lawyers are so

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Speaker 3: in many ways broken by the trauma that we deal with.

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Speaker 3: I think the problem solving is what sends a lot

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Speaker 3: of people into law school. Just like law enforcement. They

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Speaker 3: really enjoy that that angle of the service, of service

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Speaker 3: to others. And Jerry only allowed criminal defense and people

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Speaker 3: that represented individuals only. No insurance lawyers, no big business,

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Speaker 3: no government. Well there was public defenders, but you had

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Speaker 3: to be focused on the person and the process of

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Speaker 3: his college, which is written about in his books. You

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Speaker 3: can go read as many books. The Die of a

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Speaker 3: Country Lawyer as his kind of general biography talks about

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Speaker 3: the Ranch and the founding of the college. And you

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Speaker 3: would spend this first week doing psychology psychodramas with well

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Speaker 3: known psychodramatic leaders in small group settings with people that

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Speaker 3: I'm still friends with from my class in two thousand

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Speaker 3: and seven. Then you would spend a week on some

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Speaker 3: very intense trial skills and building trial skills using the

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Speaker 3: tools that we learned. And then the third week you

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Speaker 3: would spend practicing stuff. And that was just to open

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Speaker 3: the book, because law is like many professions where you

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Speaker 3: just keep getting better by practicing and experiencing an experiment.

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Speaker 3: And over twenty something years Jerry built the Ranch and

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Speaker 3: the Trial Laury's College up until it was kind of

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Speaker 3: who's who of the best lawyers in the nation when

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Speaker 3: the media calls me and how do you know that

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Speaker 3: guy man? We trained at a trial lawyer's college thing

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Speaker 3: together sixteen years ago. Now it is a college run

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Speaker 3: by people and personalities, and their personalities of lawyers, and

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Speaker 3: lawyers are difficult people, and so there have been a

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Speaker 3: lot of issues with the college. Most recently, the college

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Speaker 3: kind of split in half a couple of years ago.

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Speaker 4: I have lucky that I have very.

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Speaker 3: Good relations with both haves I'm a former staff member

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Speaker 3: and elected representative of the students and a very active

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Speaker 3: person about what we do, which is the fidelity to

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Speaker 3: this system and using tools to really advocate for people

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Speaker 3: that need us, and to go tell the stories with

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Speaker 3: boldness and authenticity and truthfulness, not being afraid of the

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Speaker 3: outrageous powers, the betrayal that is at the heart of

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Speaker 3: every trial, not being intimidated, and going forward. And you know,

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Speaker 3: I can just talk about the name. Just this week,

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Speaker 3: there was a huge nineteen eighty three case out of

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Speaker 3: Michigan involving some just abhorrent law enforcement fifty eight million

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Speaker 3: dollars this six year case. When you talk about the

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Speaker 3: people doing a wrongful conviction, a lot of those people

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Speaker 3: have Trial Laura's college training at one level or another.

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Speaker 3: The biggest truck and tractor litigators who have literally forced

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Speaker 3: our government to make our transportation systems safer, and that's

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Speaker 3: Joe Freed one oh one. That's Mike Lieeserman out of Ohio.

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Speaker 3: When you talk about Rodney King, Rodney King's lawyer, he's

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Speaker 3: one of the board members. When you talk about the

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Speaker 3: innocence of the Indiana Seven, that's marn Cheloup. She's major

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Speaker 3: major lawyer involved. You really do learn from these outrageously

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Speaker 3: good lawyers who then many of them are invited to

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Speaker 3: come back and teach the skills. No money, there's no pay,

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Speaker 3: You pay your own way, like people. It's it's the opportunity,

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Speaker 3: it's the it's the honor of the invitation to be

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Speaker 3: with these groups of lawyers. Bj Bernstein, who's a local,

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Speaker 3: incredibly good lawyer here in Georgia, Nelson Tyrone, Dan Dwatt,

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Speaker 3: like I can just go on and on with these lawyers.

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Speaker 1: It's who's who.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and Jerry's the one that brought them together. And

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Speaker 3: his passing is a loss, even though he led a life,

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Speaker 3: he led ten lives. Really just a fascinating person. You know.

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Speaker 2: One of the first conversations you and I ever had,

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Speaker 2: you brought up the ranch, and all I can tell

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Speaker 2: you is what a legacy I am often just in

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Speaker 2: awe of such.

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Speaker 1: A life well lived.

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Speaker 2: And I will tell you his legacy will continue through

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Speaker 2: all of you.

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Speaker 1: And you did a masterful job honoring him.

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Speaker 3: So thank you, Josh, thank you so much for the opportunity.

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Speaker 3: And he really we're going to see a lot of

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Speaker 3: people write things in the legal universe over the next

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Speaker 3: few weeks. Because Jerry's influence was in every corner of

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Speaker 3: trial work. If you tried cases, Jerry came into that conversation.

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Speaker 3: Even now there's a big discussion about how we reformed

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Speaker 3: torts and lawsuits and nuke verdicts. There wouldn't be a

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Speaker 3: new verdict without Jerry teaching those lawyers how to get him.

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Speaker 3: When you talk about people winning the unwinnable case and

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Speaker 3: the bravery that is involved with going out there and

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Speaker 3: trying that, that a lot of that comes out of

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Speaker 3: Jerry's teachings.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think Jerry would get a kick at it tonight.

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Speaker 2: You talking about the prosecutor that was on trial.

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Speaker 4: God drove people in.

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Speaker 3: SAE and I'm talking, You've got to be kidding me.

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Speaker 3: And I'll just say in advance, I know the defense

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Speaker 3: lawyer very very well. So he had a challenging case

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Speaker 3: that he did an excellent job. But man, tell them

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Speaker 3: what we're talking about.

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Speaker 2: You've got a prosecutor that is on trial. You've got

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Speaker 2: a jury that my buddy Joshua Schiffer said, I had

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Speaker 2: to get it right. I mean, they had to take

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Speaker 2: all of this information. But you're talking about somebody that

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Speaker 2: was trained, maybe not at the ranch, but you're trained

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Speaker 2: to know how to argue. You're trained to know how

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Speaker 2: to put a case together and dismantle one. So to me,

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Speaker 2: you had somebody not just sitting at that defen the

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Speaker 2: table as a defendant. You had somebody that came ready

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Speaker 2: to prepare a sophistication.

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Speaker 3: Believe it or not, even though his attempts landed with

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Speaker 3: a thud of a dead fish, but his sophistication and

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Speaker 3: understand off the charts, absolutely off.

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Speaker 1: The chart, off the charts.

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Speaker 2: So it's not like somebody had to remind him you

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Speaker 2: have the right to remain silent.

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Speaker 1: He knew that.

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Speaker 2: It's not like somebody had to remind him what can

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Speaker 2: and cannot be used against him.

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Speaker 1: He knows it.

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Speaker 2: He knows it better than almost anybody walking. So that

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Speaker 2: to me was an added level of when you go

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Speaker 2: at this guy, you have to be correct.

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Speaker 4: If you're going to swing up the ball, man, you

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Speaker 4: better land it. And he did.

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Speaker 3: And I'll be the first one to say I thought

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Speaker 3: man prosecutor was a little bit heavy on the righteous indignation,

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Speaker 3: But wow, Jerry sure liked what she was selling, because

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Speaker 3: they came back in a snap a snap.

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Speaker 1: Were you surprised at the timing?

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Speaker 3: You know, I could believe that it was gonna be

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Speaker 3: a reasonably fast Jerry returned because he was either gonna

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Speaker 3: get it and get clipped on everything or be walked.

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Speaker 4: You either believed him or didn't, the.

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Speaker 3: Problem being his testimony was so inauthentic, so self serving,

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Speaker 3: so curated. It was a sales pitch that he had practiced.

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Speaker 3: And he was so proud. To quote one of my

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Speaker 3: dear friends, marg Russell, former law professor, trained lots of

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Speaker 3: lawyer as a ranch person. That just amazing, Like she

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Speaker 3: and I are talking about and he's so proud of

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Speaker 3: his story that it's clear false and that's one of

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Speaker 3: the things we discussed, and it's true. He was so

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Speaker 3: self assured that if they just just understood what he

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Speaker 3: was telling him, and that worked in a lot of

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Speaker 3: his life. We're talking about a guy that got married

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Speaker 3: times past bars, became lawyer, was a prosecutor.

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Speaker 4: Like, clearly his sales ship worked.

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Speaker 2: Hold on, No, you just said his story. He was

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Speaker 2: so proud of it. You knew it couldn't be true.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, Wow, it's something that's so good. That's so good.

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Speaker 3: We talked about the other night where it really is

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Speaker 3: insane to think of how close he and Coburger are

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Speaker 3: with the intent, because I believe Coburger had totally convinced himself,

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Speaker 3: I'm smart enough to get away with all this, i

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Speaker 3: can do what I want. I'm going and you know

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Speaker 3: it's based in mental illness and some severe whatever to imbalance,

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Speaker 3: because this is the actions of absolutely psychopathic people. Not

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Speaker 3: to say they don't deserve all the punishment that they're getting,

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Speaker 3: but you see that if Coburger had been able to

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Speaker 3: succeed and go out in the world for ten years,

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Speaker 3: this is the kind of guy he turns into. Everybody

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Speaker 3: believes him. What man, he's the expert.

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Speaker 2: And don't you know, there's somebody right now sitting in

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Speaker 2: a jail sale saying, I told y'all, I told y'all.

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Speaker 3: Hopefully given his post prosecutorial behavior where he was getting disbarred,

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Speaker 3: and I hope that there was some sort of notice that.

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Speaker 3: But you never know, you know, this may be the

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Speaker 3: wake up call since he's hit the press again where

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Speaker 3: somebody who's sitting there rotten in some facility is like, man,

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Speaker 3: that's the crook that and it just it really was

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Speaker 3: my blowing to sit there and watch him testify, which

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Speaker 3: there was no chance of him winning that case without

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Speaker 3: him testifying, not with the facts. As elected, he absolutely

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Speaker 3: had to do it.

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Speaker 2: My friend, we got two minutes left, so I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: mention something that you talked about, and I'm gonna do

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Speaker 2: it quick. And I waited until there was a two

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Speaker 2: minute warning. So here's the deal. Yes, the case of

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Speaker 2: Melissa Wolfenberger kicked off today with opening statements. I do

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Speaker 2: not know what my involvement may or may not be

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Speaker 2: inside the courtroom. There is no gag order right now,

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Speaker 2: so I could talk. I'm gonna self impose one. I'm

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Speaker 2: not gonna talk. The integrity of the case. The integrity

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Speaker 2: of the investigation means more to me. I will talk

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Speaker 2: when I can, and I'm gonna talk to Joshua Schiffel

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Speaker 2: when i can, right so that y'all can hear all

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Speaker 2: of it. I have worked on this case for seven years.

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Speaker 2: I did a series for Zone seven. Hopefully y'all have

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Speaker 2: heard every episode and we will have an updated episode soon.

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Speaker 2: But as of tonight, I think y'all can understand and

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Speaker 2: respect that I'm just not going to say anything.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna let the wheels of justice turn.

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Speaker 2: Hopefully I will be on that train, and hopefully I

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Speaker 2: can tell y'all what's going on next Friday.

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Speaker 3: Fascinating case with a very good judge, good good lawyer.

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Speaker 3: Mister Foss said is one of the DA's office long

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Speaker 3: standing kind of stalwarts, and Don Samuels and Coe is

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Speaker 3: just as good as you're going to get defense wise there.

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Speaker 1: I agree on all accounts.

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Speaker 3: Will be a trial to watch if you like watching

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Speaker 3: lawyering at a high level.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, my friend, and you know what I am

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Speaker 2: gonna later this evening, salute the round.

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Speaker 3: Thank you dear, and I can't wait to see you soon.

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Speaker 3: We're going to have this talk next week. I love it.

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Speaker 3: Audience out there, love you. Can't wait to hear from you.

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Speaker 3: Really reach out to us, tell us what you're interested in.

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Speaker 3: I'm super easy to find a lawyership on Twitter, and

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Speaker 3: really I want you all to have a great week

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Speaker 3: and get ready to watch some just exceptional litigation here.

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Speaker 1: In Jordan right on. Thank y'all. We'll see you next Friday.

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Speaker 3: Bye y'all, Thank you, buddy,