WEBVTT - The Hydrogen Economy: It's a Gas 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:04.120 Hi everyone. Today we're going to talk about hydrogen. In 0:00:04.120 --> 0:00:05.520 the run up to this interview, I asked a few 0:00:05.519 --> 0:00:08.640 people around the office, not being of analysts, what they 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:11.680 thought of when I said hydrogen. A few answers came back. Okay. 0:00:11.680 --> 0:00:15.120 The first was the Hindenburg So will the hydrogen blow up? 0:00:15.240 --> 0:00:17.599 Do I really want it in my car? Next is 0:00:17.840 --> 0:00:20.320 how do you make it? I've heard about this word electrolysis, 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:22.160 but really what is it? How do you make this stuff? 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:25.200 And finally, isn't it gonna leak? I mean it's a 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:28.200 really tiny molecule. Today we're going to kick off the 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:30.840 discussion about hydrogen with some of the basics and some 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:34.280 talk of the economics. We'll be joined by Kobad Bevnagrey, 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:36.960 who heads up special projects for BENF, and Martin Tangler, 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:40.440 who wrote the report will discuss today hydrogen the economics 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:43.480 of storage. BENIOF users can get this report on benif 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:46.560 dot com, the benof mobile app, or on terminal at BENFC. 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:49.320 But before we get into the discussion with Cobad and Martin, 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:52.240 I thought we'd have Albert Chung, global head of research 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:55.080 for BEANIF, will ease us into the topic and just 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:57.440 real quick. Please note that BENIF does not provide investment 0:00:57.480 --> 0:00:59.400 or strategy advice, and you can hear a full disclaimer 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:01.240 at the end of the show. I'm Mark Taylor. He 0:01:01.360 --> 0:01:04.280 was Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switch Down Bean podcast. 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:09.480 Albert Welcome, Thanks Mark. Can you give us a little 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:13.440 bit of background on why BENF has started covering hydrogen now? Well, 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:15.360 the history of BENF and hydrogen actually goes back a 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:17.720 long way because when any F was founded back in 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:19.800 two thousand and four, it was founded as a hydrogen 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:23.119 fuel cells research and data gathering shop UM and since 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:24.560 then we kind of dip in and out of it. 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:26.720 Probably every every three or four years we've gone into it, 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:28.399 done a deep dive and said, oh, it's probably three 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:32.040 or four years away. I think what's different now is 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:34.559 that the number of countries and companies that are getting 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:38.559 quite serious about investing into the technology and deploy real 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:41.560 projects and pilot projects and so on from the orine 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:44.399 gas companies and beyond. And I think things are changing 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:46.000 a bit in terms of the cost outlook as well. 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:48.920 I remember, I think it was back in two twelve. 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:52.080 In my team at the time, we actually did take 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:55.000 a look at fuel cell vehicles and basically concluded way 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:57.120 too expensive, going to take years supring costs down. But 0:01:57.680 --> 0:02:01.120 now when we look at you know, particularly the electrolysis 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:03.720 and hydrogen production piece, it seems like costs have come 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:06.040 down quite a lot. Um, So you know, we feel 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:08.840 like it's definitely worth another look. So okay, so one 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:11.040 part of it is a cast story. But why are 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:13.360 our companies investing in it because of the cast story 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:16.160 or are they seeing some other benefit to developing this 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:19.840 technology further? Yeah, good question. Um. Again, if I if 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:21.959 I rewind a few years, I think everyone was really 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:24.840 focused on passenger vehicles and including us, you know, that's 0:02:24.840 --> 0:02:27.000 why we looked at it as well. Um. I think 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:30.400 what we've realized now is with cheap renewables and cheap batteries, 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:33.560 there are solutions now in place for you certain chunks 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:36.560 of the emissions pie where the hydrogen's kind of been 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:40.520 priced out of the competition. But now there's kind of 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:43.400 more serious discussions about decarbonizing the rest of the economy, 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:46.360 so things like long haul trucking, things like steel production, 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:50.320 pemumonia production, really difficult sectors that where frankly, you know, 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:53.040 renewables and batteries probably won't make the cut. And there 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:58.280 you're really talking about alternative clean fuels molecules rather than electrons, 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:00.600 and that's where hydrogen comes in. Now, hydroens not the 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:04.200 only solution. Things like CCUS that we're going to look 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:06.000 at as well. But I think in terms of why 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:07.760 companies are starting to look at it more seriously, I 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:10.680 think they see the momentum towards de carbonization of these 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:14.440 trickier sectors. So besides the class coming down, they see 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:17.280 as an growth opportunity. Yeah, I think so it's a 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:21.280 growth opportunity, and especially if you think about the competencies 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:24.200 of some of the companies that are investing, their competencies 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:29.520 are around fuels and you know, fuels production, fuels management 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:34.080 and storage and transportation and fuels provision um and hydrogen 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:36.760 as well as you know, potentially other kind of renewable 0:03:36.760 --> 0:03:40.280 fuels are a pathway to an energy transition to low 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:43.720 carbon that maintains a major role for fuels, and so, yeah, 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:46.520 certainly an opportunity for those companies. Can you tell us 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:48.280 a little bit of how it works? So I said 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:50.520 in the intro, you know, I've heard of this term electrolysis. 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:55.760 But what is that? Yeah. Sure, Electrolysis essentially is when 0:03:55.800 --> 0:04:00.360 you split water and produce hydrogen. So you it by 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:05.120 putting power in and water in and you get hydrogen out. 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:07.920 So it's pretty straightforward. It's a bit like a reverse 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:10.160 fuel cell. So if you'll sleep hydrogen and you get 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:13.000 powered out, electrolysis is the other way around. Now, the 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:15.960 great thing about electrolysis is if you do it using 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:18.360 renewable power as the input, then you have renewable hydrogen. 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:20.440 You have carbon free hydrogen on the back end of it, 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:24.560 which is different from the traditional ways of producing hydrogen. 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:26.720 So basically all the hydrogen in the world today is 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:29.440 produced by steam methane reformation, which is not zero carbon 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:31.720 um So if you if you use hydrogen in the 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:35.440 process today, chances are it's not clean hydrogen um So, 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:39.680 so you need to either have electrolysis from renewables or 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:43.520 steam methane reformation with carbon capture in future to to 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:46.480 get to clean hydrogen. Okay, thanks for joining us, Albert, 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:48.520 Thank you, Mark. I think now we're going to jump 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:53.320 in with the discussion with Dana and Martin and cobad Hi. Martin, 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:56.920 thank you, for joining us today, and Hi Cobad welcome, Hidanna, 0:04:57.040 --> 0:04:59.560 good to be here. When you think about the future 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:02.040 of hydrogen, do you think about it in terms of 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:06.320 fossil fuels with CCS, is being the dominant source of 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:10.600 H two or is it renewables with an electrizer sub question, 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:12.920 are the players that are the main players now in 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:15.320 making H two are those going to be the main 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:18.039 players going forward? Yeah, that's that's a great question. So, 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:20.599 and that's one of the things we're trying to figure out. 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:24.280 Is this going to be a fossil fuels plus CCS 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:27.360 story or is this going to be a renewable power story? 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:31.640 And um In some ways, actually it's a bit of 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:35.520 a false question because the first part is is hydrogen 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:40.320 going to become that fuel for a for a clean economy? 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:43.919 Because if it is, it's going to play such a 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:45.880 massive role, and you're going to need to have so 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:49.600 much supply of hydrogen that it's almost unquestionable that you'll 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:52.320 need both. You'll need it to come from fossil fuels, 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:55.000 you'll need it to come from renewables. Different countries have 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:58.599 different resources. Countries with a lot of gas are going 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:01.880 to want to keep doing it from gas. Um Countries 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:05.800 which are fossil fuel poor but have great wind or 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:08.560 solar resources are obviously going to do it from renewable 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:11.039 so there will be to some extent of horses for 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:14.040 courses approach, But we are trying to get to the 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:18.680 bottom of that. The companies. That's also an interesting thing 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:22.400 that we'll have to see how it goes. But it's 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:25.400 some of the main actors that are sort of pushing 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:28.680 the hydrogen barrow, if you will, are the big producers 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:32.479 the current the chemical giants who already have skin in 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:34.520 the game and would love for that game to get bigger. 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:37.599 Dating into the topic of this note specifically, which is 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:42.480 storage and economics around storage. The storage of hydrogen has 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:45.599 a lot to do with factors that are beyond anyone's 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:50.760 control physically, what is the geology of that space? So Martin, 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:54.480 can you actually explain a little bit what the ideal 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:57.880 scenario is and what maybe some of the less preferable 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:01.920 ones are and why you can think of storing hydrogen again, 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:05.479 similar to storing natural gas. The easiest way today to 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:08.680 store natural gas at scale is to put it in 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:12.120 a deepleted natural gas field. That's the cheapest way to 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:14.640 store a very large volume of natural gas for a 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:17.520 long period of time. You cannot necessarily do that with 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:20.400 hydrogen as easily because you might end up with that 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:24.320 hydrogen being contaminated by that residual natural gas. So you're 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:26.920 going to have to use something else. And the most 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:29.840 the best choice when it comes to cost and the 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:33.520 purity of hydrogen that comes out of that storage is 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:38.840 salt caverns. And salt caverns are large cavities in the 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:42.320 ground that we can make in the salt rock by 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:46.320 leaching it, by pumping water in taking it out, and 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:50.040 what's left is a cavity into which we can pump 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:55.000 natural gas or hydrogen or many other different substances. And 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:57.000 the benefit there is that it keeps the natural gas 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:00.520 very pure and sorry keep keep the hydrogen very pure. 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:04.560 And it's the cheapest way to store hydrogen at scale. 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:07.360 The problem, and I think you are alluding to this, 0:08:08.000 --> 0:08:11.160 is that you need salt deposits, deep salt deposits in 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:14.640 order to use salt caverns or to be able to 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:18.960 mind them, and not every country is lucky to have those. 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:22.440 So we are seeing lots of salt caverns and lots 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:25.200 of salt deposits in North America, especially the Gulf Coast 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:28.880 of the US, parts of Canada. We are seeing salt 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:31.960 caverns or the opportunity to build them in many parts 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:35.280 of Europe, but we are not seeing the opportunity for 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:38.800 salt caverns in places like Japan or South Korea, which 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:41.360 by the way, are one of the two countries are 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:45.240 very very interested in having or pursuing a hydrogen economy. 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:47.840 So that natural question is what are these countries going 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:50.920 to do to store the hydrogen that they're going to 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:55.000 need to power that hydrogen economy. Is this a case 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:57.840 of I mean you hear US and Canada being just 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:00.680 the lucky ones for the salt caverns again, right, it 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:03.079 seems to be the case where you have fossil fuels, 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:05.680 you know, you have the right geology for salt caverns 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:08.000 as well, so they're going to be winners here as well. Yes, 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:11.080 So it depends on the on the geology, and the 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:13.640 geology of salt caverns is very much linked. The geology 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:15.760 of salt deposits is very much linked to the geology 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:19.440 of oil because the salt tends to trap oil. So 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:24.720 any place with large oil deposits That includes, for example, 0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:28.920 the Middle East has good potential for building salt caverns. 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:33.199 Any place that does not have good oil deposits is 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:37.240 unlikely to be lucky when it comes to salt caverns. 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:40.240 How big a piece of the pie from an economic 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:45.839 standpoint is the storage cost in this game, storage costs 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:49.160 are very very important or could be very very important, 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:52.280 depending on your location and depending for how long and 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:56.080 for what purpose you are storing that hydrogen. But we 0:09:56.160 --> 0:10:00.360 have seen that the cost of producing hydrogen today from 0:10:00.360 --> 0:10:03.000 fossil fuels are anywhere between a dollar or two two 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:06.320 dollars per kilogram of hydrogen. If you're going to store 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:09.640 that gas in a salt cavern, you might add another 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:15.559 cents for storing that gas. If you are not lucky 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:17.720 enough to have salt currents, you might be paying three 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:21.440 times that much. And that means the one or two 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:24.079 dollars is going to become one dollar seventy five to 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:28.040 two dollars seventy five, So you're almost doubling your cost 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:31.640 of hydrogen. So on an LCOE basis, it's pretty far 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:36.000 behind pretty much anything else, right, So hydrogen will always 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:40.440 cost more than fossil fuels, particularly always particularly at the 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:43.800 chap end, and the reason for that is physics. Hydrogen 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:47.320 has to be produced from something. Fossil fuels can be 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:51.440 very cheap because they exist in the natural state, so 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:53.480 if you can get it out easily, it can be 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:58.559 produced cheaply. Hydrogen has to be made either from an 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:03.679 existing hydrocarbon, hydrogen stripped out from the carbon, or from water, 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:07.600 which case you need energy to split the oxygen and 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:10.719 the hydrogen. So because you have to produce it from 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:14.079 something else, it's always going to be more expensive than 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:18.400 what that original source of the energy was. Let's pivot 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:21.079 a little bit to the companies that are looking to 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:24.280 bring this technology forward. Who are the players? Are they 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:27.439 big or they little? So there is a whole host 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:31.920 of really quite big companies. Many of them are the 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:34.680 sorts of big companies that you don't hear about in 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:38.240 your day to day life because they are behind the scenes. 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:43.280 Chemical giants players like air Liquid who make a lot 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:47.440 of industrial gases like um Martin can speak to some 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:51.959 of the Japanese ones, players like Karalasaki Heavy and Iwatani, 0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:56.760 which are very interested in getting a liquid hydrogen supply 0:11:56.880 --> 0:12:00.839 chain and the liquid hydrogen market off the ground, You've 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:05.120 got your your industrial conglomerates, the siemens is of the world, 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:09.559 that the teas and croups who make a lot of 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:14.640 heavy machinery and and things that plants that make other things. 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:17.839 And then of course you've got your big oil and 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:20.800 gas companies who are now very interested in the prospect. 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:25.200 So the bps of the world, the shells, the totals, 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:29.880 the woodsides, they're all there sort of existing well and 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:33.199 gas giants that have started hydrogen business units. They're funding 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:38.520 pilot projects and they're investigating the technology to prepare for 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:42.280 a low carbon future. What is the general perception around 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:45.720 the safety of hydrogen because it conjures up this view 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:49.320 of that exploding zeppelin. Uh and I think about that 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:52.199 sometimes when I see the occasional but not frequent hydrogen 0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:55.840 vehicle driving around. That's right. So a lot of focused 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:59.520 groups discussing the issue of hydrogen safety. If you look 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:03.160 at the word cloud, it includes things like bomb and 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:07.520 and explosion. So safety is always identified in the national 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:11.439 road maps that countries at the at the forefront of 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:14.720 of this um push and the exploration of the potential 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:17.160 of hydrogen safety is always one of the key things 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:20.959 that they are looking at, imagine along with leakage and corrosion. 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:23.240 Is that true or not so that that those play 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:26.800 into the safety and the compatibility issues of hydrogen. But 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:30.920 um certainly so that the safety issue actually spans a 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:35.560 whole bunch of areas. So, for one, the usage of 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:39.880 production of hydrogen is currently really tightly regulated. There's a 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:43.240 lot of safety codes. There's a lot of prohibitions on 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:46.160 where you can use hydrogen, on when you can use hydrogen, 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:49.600 on how you store it, on how you handle it. So, 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:56.080 for instance, in China, liquid hydrogen is um illegal to 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:59.480 possess or to make because it is considered a rocket fuel, 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:02.760 which it is. The space shuttle follow eleven they were 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:08.640 all powered by liquid hydrogen. UM. Likewise, there's lots and 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:12.319 lots of safety codes on and often prohibitions on putting 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:16.920 hydrogen into pipelines because hydrogen can make pipelines weak and 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:19.640 cause them to rupture. But you can do it in 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:24.560 in smaller percentages um. The latest science is saying five 0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:28.080 you can blend and without a problem, but to be 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:31.840 on the safe side, and in years gone by, these 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:35.520 hydrogen has often been prohibited. There's there's a whole bunch 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:40.160 of other safety concerns, concerns about UM and issues of 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:44.240 social acceptability which will have to be worked through, which 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:47.560 is all a key part of their consideration of whether 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:51.000 hydrogen can play the role that some people hope it will. 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:54.360 So how do you see hydrogen coming into let's see 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:58.000 my daily life, right, Will it come into play practically 0:14:58.120 --> 0:15:02.120 by me buying a as fuel cell car or will 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:04.560 it be more in industrial processes that I don't see? 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:07.440 That's right, yes, So one of the beauties about hydrogen 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:11.960 actually is that UM it can be used almost everywhere 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:16.280 and in almost every major industry and sector. It could 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:18.640 be the natural gas of the future, and that it's 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:24.440 this you know, ubiquitous Lee used fuel that UM. You know, 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:26.840 people who just need energy end up using it and 0:15:26.880 --> 0:15:30.720 buying it. So m Hydrogen could be the fuel that 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:34.680 powers your vehicle or the battery electric vehicles are definitely 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:37.920 winning that race for the moment um. It could be 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:41.640 the fuel that is going into the manufacturing it what 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:46.400 will is ending up somehow powering your airplane. It could 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:50.680 be the fuel that is allowing steel to be made 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:54.280 and for the chairs we sit on. UM. It can 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:58.840 also be the fuel which ends up producing the fertilizers 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:01.720 which make a tomato is nice and red um It 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:04.240 can perme at all different parts of the economy, so 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:08.000 it could being incredibly useful. It can also, as Cobad 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:11.560 has already mentioned, be blended with natural gas into existing 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:16.280 natural gas pipelines about five concentrations depending on the pipeline, 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:19.960 depending on the regulations, and it could then end up 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:22.880 heating your home or you could cook your dinner with 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:27.560 a partly hydrogen gas mix. So the storage part has 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:31.280 to be built from scratch, but the transportation through existing 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:34.240 pipelines can mean we could use existing infrastructure, so that 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:38.520 could actually help drive it towards economic viability sooner. That 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:42.480 is one way in which we think that hydrogen could 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:47.200 start taking off is if a government, for example, mandates 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:50.520 that five percent of the volume in a natural gas 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:55.560 pipeline any given time must be hydrogen. And if that happens, 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:59.560 that creates large demand for hydrogen, which would then help 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:04.280 reduce the costs of producing the hydrogen. So hydrogen can 0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:07.520 be used in our existing gas pipes to a point. 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:11.560 Depending on what material those gas networks are made of, 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:15.239 um they have you know, varying levels of compatibility or 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:19.199 safety with hydrogen. So if you have a more modern 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:25.359 network of polyurethane based pipes, which are common when um 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:29.760 in in new cities and new population centers, and also 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:33.880 where there's been a deep retrofital replacement, then hydrogen can 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:38.080 can be piped through their up to a hudd percent 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:41.520 concentration with with a little bit of work done on 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:44.760 making sure it's sealed of because you'd also have to 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:49.120 adjust the appliances or by new appliances to burn that hydrogen. 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:52.000 That's right. So, just in the way that cities and 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:56.400 towns and countries switched from town's gas back in the sixties, 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:59.760 seventies and eighties to natural gas, a similar type of 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:03.000 whichever will be required in order to start to use 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:06.440 a large high blends of hydrogen. In effect, towns gas 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:09.439 is a blend of hydrogen and carbon monoxide. So we 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:13.080 used to have hydrogen running under the streets of London, 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:17.960 under the streets of Sydney, of Tokyo, et cetera. So um, 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:20.119 that comes back to the point that the idea of 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:22.840 hydrogen as a fuel is actually not an old not 0:18:22.920 --> 0:18:25.200 a new one. It's an old one and it's ebbed 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:28.199 and flowed over the years and had various backers and 0:18:28.240 --> 0:18:33.160 then it's fallen, fallen over, but this time may be different. Well, 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:36.960 I am certainly interested in watching this space because you 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:40.520 have sold me on the excitement of a potentially emissions 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:43.359 free future. So thank you very much for joining us 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:46.919 today about kind of this new and exciting area in 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:50.199 the spaces that we cover. Cobad Martin, thank you for 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:55.680 being here right pleasure. Thank you, Dana. Bloomberg. An e 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:58.080 F is a service provided by Bloomberg Finance LP and 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:00.920 its affiliates. 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