1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: Hi everyone. Today we're going to talk about hydrogen. In 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:05,520 Speaker 1: the run up to this interview, I asked a few 3 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,640 Speaker 1: people around the office, not being of analysts, what they 4 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: thought of when I said hydrogen. A few answers came back. Okay. 5 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: The first was the Hindenburg So will the hydrogen blow up? 6 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 1: Do I really want it in my car? Next is 7 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: how do you make it? I've heard about this word electrolysis, 8 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: but really what is it? How do you make this stuff? 9 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: And finally, isn't it gonna leak? I mean it's a 10 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: really tiny molecule. Today we're going to kick off the 11 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: discussion about hydrogen with some of the basics and some 12 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: talk of the economics. We'll be joined by Kobad Bevnagrey, 13 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: who heads up special projects for BENF, and Martin Tangler, 14 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: who wrote the report will discuss today hydrogen the economics 15 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,480 Speaker 1: of storage. BENIOF users can get this report on benif 16 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 1: dot com, the benof mobile app, or on terminal at BENFC. 17 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: But before we get into the discussion with Cobad and Martin, 18 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 1: I thought we'd have Albert Chung, global head of research 19 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: for BEANIF, will ease us into the topic and just 20 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: real quick. Please note that BENIF does not provide investment 21 00:00:57,480 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: or strategy advice, and you can hear a full disclaimer 22 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: at the end of the show. I'm Mark Taylor. He 23 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: was Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switch Down Bean podcast. 24 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 1: Albert Welcome, Thanks Mark. Can you give us a little 25 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: bit of background on why BENF has started covering hydrogen now? Well, 26 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: the history of BENF and hydrogen actually goes back a 27 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: long way because when any F was founded back in 28 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: two thousand and four, it was founded as a hydrogen 29 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:23,119 Speaker 1: fuel cells research and data gathering shop UM and since 30 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 1: then we kind of dip in and out of it. 31 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: Probably every every three or four years we've gone into it, 32 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 1: done a deep dive and said, oh, it's probably three 33 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 1: or four years away. I think what's different now is 34 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:34,559 Speaker 1: that the number of countries and companies that are getting 35 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:38,559 Speaker 1: quite serious about investing into the technology and deploy real 36 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: projects and pilot projects and so on from the orine 37 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,399 Speaker 1: gas companies and beyond. And I think things are changing 38 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: a bit in terms of the cost outlook as well. 39 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: I remember, I think it was back in two twelve. 40 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: In my team at the time, we actually did take 41 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: a look at fuel cell vehicles and basically concluded way 42 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: too expensive, going to take years supring costs down. But 43 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: now when we look at you know, particularly the electrolysis 44 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: and hydrogen production piece, it seems like costs have come 45 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: down quite a lot. Um, So you know, we feel 46 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 1: like it's definitely worth another look. So okay, so one 47 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: part of it is a cast story. But why are 48 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 1: our companies investing in it because of the cast story 49 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: or are they seeing some other benefit to developing this 50 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: technology further? Yeah, good question. Um. Again, if I if 51 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:21,959 Speaker 1: I rewind a few years, I think everyone was really 52 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 1: focused on passenger vehicles and including us, you know, that's 53 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: why we looked at it as well. Um. I think 54 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: what we've realized now is with cheap renewables and cheap batteries, 55 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: there are solutions now in place for you certain chunks 56 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: of the emissions pie where the hydrogen's kind of been 57 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 1: priced out of the competition. But now there's kind of 58 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 1: more serious discussions about decarbonizing the rest of the economy, 59 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: so things like long haul trucking, things like steel production, 60 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: pemumonia production, really difficult sectors that where frankly, you know, 61 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: renewables and batteries probably won't make the cut. And there 62 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: you're really talking about alternative clean fuels molecules rather than electrons, 63 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: and that's where hydrogen comes in. Now, hydroens not the 64 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: only solution. Things like CCUS that we're going to look 65 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: at as well. But I think in terms of why 66 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: companies are starting to look at it more seriously, I 67 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: think they see the momentum towards de carbonization of these 68 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: trickier sectors. So besides the class coming down, they see 69 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: as an growth opportunity. Yeah, I think so it's a 70 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: growth opportunity, and especially if you think about the competencies 71 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: of some of the companies that are investing, their competencies 72 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 1: are around fuels and you know, fuels production, fuels management 73 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 1: and storage and transportation and fuels provision um and hydrogen 74 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: as well as you know, potentially other kind of renewable 75 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: fuels are a pathway to an energy transition to low 76 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: carbon that maintains a major role for fuels, and so, yeah, 77 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: certainly an opportunity for those companies. Can you tell us 78 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: a little bit of how it works? So I said 79 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: in the intro, you know, I've heard of this term electrolysis. 80 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: But what is that? Yeah. Sure, Electrolysis essentially is when 81 00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 1: you split water and produce hydrogen. So you it by 82 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: putting power in and water in and you get hydrogen out. 83 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: So it's pretty straightforward. It's a bit like a reverse 84 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: fuel cell. So if you'll sleep hydrogen and you get 85 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: powered out, electrolysis is the other way around. Now, the 86 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: great thing about electrolysis is if you do it using 87 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 1: renewable power as the input, then you have renewable hydrogen. 88 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: You have carbon free hydrogen on the back end of it, 89 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: which is different from the traditional ways of producing hydrogen. 90 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 1: So basically all the hydrogen in the world today is 91 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: produced by steam methane reformation, which is not zero carbon 92 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:31,720 Speaker 1: um So if you if you use hydrogen in the 93 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: process today, chances are it's not clean hydrogen um So, 94 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: so you need to either have electrolysis from renewables or 95 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: steam methane reformation with carbon capture in future to to 96 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 1: get to clean hydrogen. Okay, thanks for joining us, Albert, 97 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: Thank you, Mark. I think now we're going to jump 98 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: in with the discussion with Dana and Martin and cobad Hi. Martin, 99 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 1: thank you, for joining us today, and Hi Cobad welcome, Hidanna, 100 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: good to be here. When you think about the future 101 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 1: of hydrogen, do you think about it in terms of 102 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: fossil fuels with CCS, is being the dominant source of 103 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 1: H two or is it renewables with an electrizer sub question, 104 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 1: are the players that are the main players now in 105 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: making H two are those going to be the main 106 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,039 Speaker 1: players going forward? Yeah, that's that's a great question. So, 107 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:20,599 Speaker 1: and that's one of the things we're trying to figure out. 108 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:24,280 Speaker 1: Is this going to be a fossil fuels plus CCS 109 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 1: story or is this going to be a renewable power story? 110 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: And um In some ways, actually it's a bit of 111 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 1: a false question because the first part is is hydrogen 112 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: going to become that fuel for a for a clean economy? 113 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:43,919 Speaker 1: Because if it is, it's going to play such a 114 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: massive role, and you're going to need to have so 115 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 1: much supply of hydrogen that it's almost unquestionable that you'll 116 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: need both. You'll need it to come from fossil fuels, 117 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: you'll need it to come from renewables. Different countries have 118 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 1: different resources. Countries with a lot of gas are going 119 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: to want to keep doing it from gas. Um Countries 120 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: which are fossil fuel poor but have great wind or 121 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: solar resources are obviously going to do it from renewable 122 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 1: so there will be to some extent of horses for 123 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 1: courses approach, But we are trying to get to the 124 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 1: bottom of that. The companies. That's also an interesting thing 125 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: that we'll have to see how it goes. But it's 126 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 1: some of the main actors that are sort of pushing 127 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: the hydrogen barrow, if you will, are the big producers 128 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 1: the current the chemical giants who already have skin in 129 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: the game and would love for that game to get bigger. 130 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 1: Dating into the topic of this note specifically, which is 131 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 1: storage and economics around storage. The storage of hydrogen has 132 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: a lot to do with factors that are beyond anyone's 133 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: control physically, what is the geology of that space? So Martin, 134 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 1: can you actually explain a little bit what the ideal 135 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: scenario is and what maybe some of the less preferable 136 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 1: ones are and why you can think of storing hydrogen again, 137 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 1: similar to storing natural gas. The easiest way today to 138 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: store natural gas at scale is to put it in 139 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 1: a deepleted natural gas field. That's the cheapest way to 140 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: store a very large volume of natural gas for a 141 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: long period of time. You cannot necessarily do that with 142 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: hydrogen as easily because you might end up with that 143 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: hydrogen being contaminated by that residual natural gas. So you're 144 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: going to have to use something else. And the most 145 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: the best choice when it comes to cost and the 146 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: purity of hydrogen that comes out of that storage is 147 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: salt caverns. And salt caverns are large cavities in the 148 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: ground that we can make in the salt rock by 149 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: leaching it, by pumping water in taking it out, and 150 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: what's left is a cavity into which we can pump 151 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: natural gas or hydrogen or many other different substances. And 152 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: the benefit there is that it keeps the natural gas 153 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: very pure and sorry keep keep the hydrogen very pure. 154 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: And it's the cheapest way to store hydrogen at scale. 155 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: The problem, and I think you are alluding to this, 156 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: is that you need salt deposits, deep salt deposits in 157 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: order to use salt caverns or to be able to 158 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: mind them, and not every country is lucky to have those. 159 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: So we are seeing lots of salt caverns and lots 160 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: of salt deposits in North America, especially the Gulf Coast 161 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: of the US, parts of Canada. We are seeing salt 162 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: caverns or the opportunity to build them in many parts 163 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: of Europe, but we are not seeing the opportunity for 164 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: salt caverns in places like Japan or South Korea, which 165 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: by the way, are one of the two countries are 166 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: very very interested in having or pursuing a hydrogen economy. 167 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 1: So that natural question is what are these countries going 168 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: to do to store the hydrogen that they're going to 169 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: need to power that hydrogen economy. Is this a case 170 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: of I mean you hear US and Canada being just 171 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 1: the lucky ones for the salt caverns again, right, it 172 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,079 Speaker 1: seems to be the case where you have fossil fuels, 173 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 1: you know, you have the right geology for salt caverns 174 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: as well, so they're going to be winners here as well. Yes, 175 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 1: So it depends on the on the geology, and the 176 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: geology of salt caverns is very much linked. The geology 177 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: of salt deposits is very much linked to the geology 178 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 1: of oil because the salt tends to trap oil. So 179 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 1: any place with large oil deposits That includes, for example, 180 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: the Middle East has good potential for building salt caverns. 181 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:33,199 Speaker 1: Any place that does not have good oil deposits is 182 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: unlikely to be lucky when it comes to salt caverns. 183 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: How big a piece of the pie from an economic 184 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:45,839 Speaker 1: standpoint is the storage cost in this game, storage costs 185 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: are very very important or could be very very important, 186 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: depending on your location and depending for how long and 187 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: for what purpose you are storing that hydrogen. But we 188 00:09:56,160 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: have seen that the cost of producing hydrogen today from 189 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: fossil fuels are anywhere between a dollar or two two 190 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: dollars per kilogram of hydrogen. If you're going to store 191 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: that gas in a salt cavern, you might add another 192 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 1: cents for storing that gas. If you are not lucky 193 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: enough to have salt currents, you might be paying three 194 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 1: times that much. And that means the one or two 195 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:24,079 Speaker 1: dollars is going to become one dollar seventy five to 196 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: two dollars seventy five, So you're almost doubling your cost 197 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: of hydrogen. So on an LCOE basis, it's pretty far 198 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: behind pretty much anything else, right, So hydrogen will always 199 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 1: cost more than fossil fuels, particularly always particularly at the 200 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: chap end, and the reason for that is physics. Hydrogen 201 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 1: has to be produced from something. Fossil fuels can be 202 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 1: very cheap because they exist in the natural state, so 203 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: if you can get it out easily, it can be 204 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:58,559 Speaker 1: produced cheaply. Hydrogen has to be made either from an 205 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 1: existing hydrocarbon, hydrogen stripped out from the carbon, or from water, 206 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: which case you need energy to split the oxygen and 207 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:10,719 Speaker 1: the hydrogen. So because you have to produce it from 208 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:14,079 Speaker 1: something else, it's always going to be more expensive than 209 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: what that original source of the energy was. Let's pivot 210 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,079 Speaker 1: a little bit to the companies that are looking to 211 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: bring this technology forward. Who are the players? Are they 212 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,439 Speaker 1: big or they little? So there is a whole host 213 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: of really quite big companies. Many of them are the 214 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: sorts of big companies that you don't hear about in 215 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: your day to day life because they are behind the scenes. 216 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: Chemical giants players like air Liquid who make a lot 217 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: of industrial gases like um Martin can speak to some 218 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,959 Speaker 1: of the Japanese ones, players like Karalasaki Heavy and Iwatani, 219 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: which are very interested in getting a liquid hydrogen supply 220 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,839 Speaker 1: chain and the liquid hydrogen market off the ground, You've 221 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: got your your industrial conglomerates, the siemens is of the world, 222 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:09,559 Speaker 1: that the teas and croups who make a lot of 223 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: heavy machinery and and things that plants that make other things. 224 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:17,839 Speaker 1: And then of course you've got your big oil and 225 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 1: gas companies who are now very interested in the prospect. 226 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: So the bps of the world, the shells, the totals, 227 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: the woodsides, they're all there sort of existing well and 228 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:33,199 Speaker 1: gas giants that have started hydrogen business units. They're funding 229 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 1: pilot projects and they're investigating the technology to prepare for 230 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: a low carbon future. What is the general perception around 231 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: the safety of hydrogen because it conjures up this view 232 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: of that exploding zeppelin. Uh and I think about that 233 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,199 Speaker 1: sometimes when I see the occasional but not frequent hydrogen 234 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: vehicle driving around. That's right. So a lot of focused 235 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: groups discussing the issue of hydrogen safety. If you look 236 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: at the word cloud, it includes things like bomb and 237 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: and explosion. So safety is always identified in the national 238 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 1: road maps that countries at the at the forefront of 239 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: of this um push and the exploration of the potential 240 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: of hydrogen safety is always one of the key things 241 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:20,959 Speaker 1: that they are looking at, imagine along with leakage and corrosion. 242 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: Is that true or not so that that those play 243 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: into the safety and the compatibility issues of hydrogen. But 244 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: um certainly so that the safety issue actually spans a 245 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: whole bunch of areas. So, for one, the usage of 246 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: production of hydrogen is currently really tightly regulated. There's a 247 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: lot of safety codes. There's a lot of prohibitions on 248 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: where you can use hydrogen, on when you can use hydrogen, 249 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: on how you store it, on how you handle it. So, 250 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 1: for instance, in China, liquid hydrogen is um illegal to 251 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: possess or to make because it is considered a rocket fuel, 252 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: which it is. The space shuttle follow eleven they were 253 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 1: all powered by liquid hydrogen. UM. Likewise, there's lots and 254 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:12,319 Speaker 1: lots of safety codes on and often prohibitions on putting 255 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: hydrogen into pipelines because hydrogen can make pipelines weak and 256 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: cause them to rupture. But you can do it in 257 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: in smaller percentages um. The latest science is saying five 258 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: you can blend and without a problem, but to be 259 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 1: on the safe side, and in years gone by, these 260 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: hydrogen has often been prohibited. There's there's a whole bunch 261 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: of other safety concerns, concerns about UM and issues of 262 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: social acceptability which will have to be worked through, which 263 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: is all a key part of their consideration of whether 264 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: hydrogen can play the role that some people hope it will. 265 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 1: So how do you see hydrogen coming into let's see 266 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: my daily life, right, Will it come into play practically 267 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: by me buying a as fuel cell car or will 268 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: it be more in industrial processes that I don't see? 269 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: That's right, yes, So one of the beauties about hydrogen 270 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: actually is that UM it can be used almost everywhere 271 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: and in almost every major industry and sector. It could 272 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: be the natural gas of the future, and that it's 273 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: this you know, ubiquitous Lee used fuel that UM. You know, 274 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: people who just need energy end up using it and 275 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: buying it. So m Hydrogen could be the fuel that 276 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: powers your vehicle or the battery electric vehicles are definitely 277 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: winning that race for the moment um. It could be 278 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: the fuel that is going into the manufacturing it what 279 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: will is ending up somehow powering your airplane. It could 280 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: be the fuel that is allowing steel to be made 281 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: and for the chairs we sit on. UM. It can 282 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: also be the fuel which ends up producing the fertilizers 283 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: which make a tomato is nice and red um It 284 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: can perme at all different parts of the economy, so 285 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: it could being incredibly useful. It can also, as Cobad 286 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: has already mentioned, be blended with natural gas into existing 287 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: natural gas pipelines about five concentrations depending on the pipeline, 288 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 1: depending on the regulations, and it could then end up 289 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: heating your home or you could cook your dinner with 290 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: a partly hydrogen gas mix. So the storage part has 291 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: to be built from scratch, but the transportation through existing 292 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: pipelines can mean we could use existing infrastructure, so that 293 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 1: could actually help drive it towards economic viability sooner. That 294 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: is one way in which we think that hydrogen could 295 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: start taking off is if a government, for example, mandates 296 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: that five percent of the volume in a natural gas 297 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: pipeline any given time must be hydrogen. And if that happens, 298 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: that creates large demand for hydrogen, which would then help 299 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: reduce the costs of producing the hydrogen. So hydrogen can 300 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: be used in our existing gas pipes to a point. 301 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: Depending on what material those gas networks are made of, 302 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,239 Speaker 1: um they have you know, varying levels of compatibility or 303 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:19,199 Speaker 1: safety with hydrogen. So if you have a more modern 304 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 1: network of polyurethane based pipes, which are common when um 305 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: in in new cities and new population centers, and also 306 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,880 Speaker 1: where there's been a deep retrofital replacement, then hydrogen can 307 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: can be piped through their up to a hudd percent 308 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: concentration with with a little bit of work done on 309 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: making sure it's sealed of because you'd also have to 310 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:49,120 Speaker 1: adjust the appliances or by new appliances to burn that hydrogen. 311 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: That's right. So, just in the way that cities and 312 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 1: towns and countries switched from town's gas back in the sixties, 313 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: seventies and eighties to natural gas, a similar type of 314 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 1: whichever will be required in order to start to use 315 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 1: a large high blends of hydrogen. In effect, towns gas 316 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,439 Speaker 1: is a blend of hydrogen and carbon monoxide. So we 317 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: used to have hydrogen running under the streets of London, 318 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: under the streets of Sydney, of Tokyo, et cetera. So um, 319 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 1: that comes back to the point that the idea of 320 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: hydrogen as a fuel is actually not an old not 321 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: a new one. It's an old one and it's ebbed 322 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,199 Speaker 1: and flowed over the years and had various backers and 323 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 1: then it's fallen, fallen over, but this time may be different. Well, 324 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: I am certainly interested in watching this space because you 325 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: have sold me on the excitement of a potentially emissions 326 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 1: free future. So thank you very much for joining us 327 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 1: today about kind of this new and exciting area in 328 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,199 Speaker 1: the spaces that we cover. Cobad Martin, thank you for 329 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 1: being here right pleasure. Thank you, Dana. Bloomberg. 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