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Speaker 1: My name is Clay Nukeleman. I'm the host of the

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Speaker 1: Bear Hunting Magazine podcast. I'll also be your host into

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Speaker 1: the world of hunting the icon of the North American wilderness. Prepare.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about tactics, gear conservation. We will also bring

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Speaker 1: you into some of the wildest country on the planet

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Speaker 1: chasing Fair. This week, we're going back to one of

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Speaker 1: our classic Bear Hunting Magazine episodes, our episode that we

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Speaker 1: did with Advance at his home in California. Advance is

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Speaker 1: a longtime houndsman, hunting both bear and mountain lion and

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Speaker 1: Ed wrote a book called Trained by Hound Dog. I

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Speaker 1: knew nothing of him. I read his book and I thought,

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Speaker 1: I gotta meet this guy, and so I went to

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Speaker 1: California and I met Ed van Ants. It's been a

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Speaker 1: friend of mine ever since. This podcast will go down

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Speaker 1: as one of our classic episodes. If you haven't heard it.

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Speaker 1: For those of you that are new to the podcasts,

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Speaker 1: I know you're gonna enjoy it. And if you've already

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Speaker 1: heard it, then you can check it out again. This

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Speaker 1: podcast is brought to you by our friends at w

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Speaker 1: Hunting Supply. These guys are your go to source for

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you exactly why I did it. I was

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Speaker 1: tree stand hunting thick vegetation, so I wanted a light,

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Speaker 1: knew I wasn't gonna get two shots at an animal.

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Speaker 1: muzzloader because it was light, it was easy to handle

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Speaker 1: in the tree, and I had a hundred percent confidence

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Speaker 1: in its ignition power. I knew it was gonna shoot,

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Speaker 1: And lastly, Western Bear Foundation. These guys are nonprofit hunting

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Speaker 1: conservation organization to an incredible workout West for Bears, fighting

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Speaker 1: the good fight for predator hunters, for those of us

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Speaker 1: that understand that natural systems in today's ecological environment must

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Speaker 1: be managed and large predators must be managed, and large

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Speaker 1: predators can be utilized for their commodities incredible ways. And

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Speaker 1: what I'm talking about is eating them using their high

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Speaker 1: while our enjoyment of hunting being a part of a

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Speaker 1: scientific management plan that fits in for all species, for elk,

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Speaker 1: for deer. You know these predators have to manage. Western

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Speaker 1: Bear Foundation is preaching that message in an area that

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Speaker 1: needs it. Check our friends out and you're gonna enjoy

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Speaker 1: this podcast with Advance. The green Horn Mountains of southern

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Speaker 1: California look like a steep rolling savannah of grass and trees,

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Speaker 1: many of which are some type of small oak. The

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Speaker 1: mountains go up over seven thousand feet, many as steep

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Speaker 1: as a cow space. From this property, I call lions

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Speaker 1: and bears all over everything, all of all of this

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Speaker 1: stuff that you can see. Ad points to a bear

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Speaker 1: hide hanging on the wall of his home. That was

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Speaker 1: one of the toughest bears that I've ever got my

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Speaker 1: dogs after. I mean I had others, they were just

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Speaker 1: as bad. Because there's the right here, I'm gonna explain

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Speaker 1: to you, and I'm gonna show you where it started,

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Speaker 1: where it went to him, where it ended come right

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Speaker 1: here at this house. Advance is seventy eight years old,

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Speaker 1: and he hunted these mountains for lions and bear in

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Speaker 1: a twenty five year stretch from the nineteen sixties through

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Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties. Today, he can see much of his

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Speaker 1: favorite hunting ground from the incredible view from his home.

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Speaker 1: But I want to explain, I want to show you.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna walk over here We'll have to walk around

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Speaker 1: a little bit in order for you do U to

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Speaker 1: take in all of what I'm gonna show you. Because

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Speaker 1: Ed is a gifted craftsman with wood, brick and stone.

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Speaker 1: His home he built himself. It's a mix of a

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Speaker 1: timber framed bungalow style Western log cabin, ornate with saddles worn,

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Speaker 1: cowboy hats, bear hides in a mounted mountain. Lion killed

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Speaker 1: before the hunting band in California. It's clear to see

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Speaker 1: that Ed is a meticulate master of everything that he

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Speaker 1: takes on, and at one period in his life his

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Speaker 1: entire focus was hunting lions and bears with hounds. This

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Speaker 1: particular bear that I got out after it was in

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Speaker 1: I mentioned in the book. Um I started him in

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Speaker 1: October and it was just at the crack of dawn

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Speaker 1: and I had I couldn't find a bear by driving roads,

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Speaker 1: so I got uh. I had two hunter with me,

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Speaker 1: and so we stopped and I says, I want to

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Speaker 1: walk up a canyon and see if I can get

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Speaker 1: a bear started up there. And I'm gonna show you

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Speaker 1: where this is at. You see this ridge right in

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Speaker 1: front of us, So you see a lone tree standing

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Speaker 1: up there all by myself. From that tree. If you

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Speaker 1: went straight down into the canyon, you see the ridge

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Speaker 1: on the other side, straight down into the bottom. That's

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Speaker 1: where they started this bear. I went up there and

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Speaker 1: then and they struck this bear and this ridge. You

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Speaker 1: can see where that lone tree standing. You can see

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Speaker 1: the ridge it's on, and that ridge follows and keeps going.

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Speaker 1: And then he gets right up to a point. They

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Speaker 1: pulled him out of that cannon. He came out of

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Speaker 1: that canyon, crossed onto this side of that ridge, and

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Speaker 1: he skirted that ridge almost on the top all the

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Speaker 1: way around. And then where you can see that one

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Speaker 1: high point, he turned and he went to the opposite

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Speaker 1: side of it. Now there was no roads to speak

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Speaker 1: of it, so I was following him on foot. M hmm.

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Speaker 1: By the time I got to there, I could hear

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Speaker 1: those dogs. It was placed called Portuguese Pass, and Portuguese

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Speaker 1: Pass is the furthest ridge that you can see as

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Speaker 1: far as you can see. And he's just about to

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Speaker 1: go over, and I thought, if he goes over that,

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Speaker 1: so there's a big valley in between that. It's called

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Speaker 1: bill Run Basin. The other side is called bill Run Basin.

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Speaker 1: I was north of that high point that we're talking about,

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Speaker 1: which is from right where that point is out to

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Speaker 1: where it started. Yeah, it's only like maybe three miles

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Speaker 1: through the air, but we weren't going through the air.

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Speaker 1: We were going on ground, and it's different. It's different.

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Speaker 1: So I got around to the other side of that

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Speaker 1: and I heard those dogs headed towards Portuguese pass. I

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Speaker 1: had five dogs on it, I recall, and they were

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Speaker 1: really hammering that thing. And I was suspicious of what

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Speaker 1: bear this was because I I didn't know at the time,

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Speaker 1: but I caught him two other times and let him go.

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Speaker 1: And he was a non tregable bear. You're gonna bay

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Speaker 1: him out. That was it. So as far as you

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Speaker 1: can see, they just he just about got over that

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Speaker 1: far ridge and they were then he was he was

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Speaker 1: moving and and these dogs were hitting it as hard

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Speaker 1: as they could, and that he is like extremely steep

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Speaker 1: and rough. And then I lost hearing of them. Now

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Speaker 1: we're gonna have to walk to another spot. Show you

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Speaker 1: where this thing ended up at. In the meantime, I

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Speaker 1: had two had these two guys that where I was.

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Speaker 1: I had him here on a bear hunt, and they

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Speaker 1: were waiting to inform me at my pickup. I had

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Speaker 1: a CB radio in the pickup. I walk up on

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Speaker 1: this little dog here a little bit, and I can

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Speaker 1: show you a little bit further, get right up there

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Speaker 1: in that opening. It's kind of it's kind of nice

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Speaker 1: to be living in a spot where I can take

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Speaker 1: and look at places like this and say, well, I

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Speaker 1: know what had happened, because I was there and it

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Speaker 1: did happen. Now we look straight ahead of us, and

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Speaker 1: we can see him rounded mountain and on this side

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Speaker 1: has been burned. And I mentioned to you that at

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Speaker 1: the transition between the trees that have been burned, which

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Speaker 1: were lower as the ones above, those dogs were on

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Speaker 1: that side. You keep in mind they started over here,

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Speaker 1: they went around that point, and when they did that,

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Speaker 1: I lost him. I had no idea where they were.

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Speaker 1: I was no I was. I was up on this

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Speaker 1: from where you started swoops down Portugee passes in there.

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Speaker 1: I was up in that area someplace, and I could

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Speaker 1: hear my dogs going down on that hillside, which is

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Speaker 1: several miles from there too, and I could hear him

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Speaker 1: for several miles, and then they disappeared. So I came

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Speaker 1: down through all of that and it's late in the afternoon. No,

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Speaker 1: I'll keep in mind this started at about six in

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Speaker 1: the morning, late in the afternoon, which would be about

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna say about three o'clock. I crossed this road

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Speaker 1: right here, the road that I'm living on. But I

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Speaker 1: was about four miles up. When it got to the road.

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Speaker 1: He cranked on the CBE radio and heard the voice

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Speaker 1: of a good friend that he didn't even know was

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Speaker 1: in the area. Asked me. He says, let me come

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Speaker 1: and get you. And I said, do you have you

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Speaker 1: heard my dogs? And he said, yes, your dogs the

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Speaker 1: last I heard. And he said, your dogs are done

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Speaker 1: on White River by the campground. Now I'm gonna show

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Speaker 1: you what White River Campground is. That he wanted to

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Speaker 1: come and pick me up, and I said, no, I

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Speaker 1: wanted to just go across the country. I'm just gonna

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Speaker 1: keep it's all downhill, and I can travel pretty fast

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Speaker 1: going downhill, and uh, as long as I know that

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Speaker 1: that's where they're at, and anything from Louisa this time,

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Speaker 1: you've already traveled twelve fourteen miles close to that through

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Speaker 1: through air miles, and so you're going down in these

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Speaker 1: steep valleys and ravines and up mountains. Yes, because where

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Speaker 1: the bear was started was at the five thousand foot

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Speaker 1: elevation in Portuguese passes seven thousand. So they almost got

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Speaker 1: he almost had. You had to you had to lose elevation,

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Speaker 1: and yes, yes, back and forth, back and forth the road.

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Speaker 1: If you look right down in the bottom the canon,

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Speaker 1: you see a dirt road down there. And when I

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Speaker 1: got there, those dogs, White River was about five miles

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Speaker 1: from there to the north, and those dogs and they

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Speaker 1: were coming this to the south, about halfway between that

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Speaker 1: ridge that you're looking at in the bottom of the canyon,

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Speaker 1: which is about a thousand foot drop in elevation below

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Speaker 1: where I was at, and he started, he started skirting

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Speaker 1: going this way. He's going southwest. I followed that ridge

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Speaker 1: and knowing that if he gets on this side of it,

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna lose Those Doctors're gonna go down and

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Speaker 1: nothing but private land, and I can't get into that stuff.

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Speaker 1: So not halfway between these two points, which it is

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Speaker 1: gonna be about a half three quarters of a mile,

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Speaker 1: he was getting close to crossing over, and I got

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Speaker 1: to where I could drop down, and I came head

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Speaker 1: on onto him, and we walked right into each other.

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Speaker 1: When he saw me, he spun and I had this.

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Speaker 1: They weren't behind him, they were all right alongside of it.

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Speaker 1: They're right on it. Yeah, I got Mike, shot at him,

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Speaker 1: and I was almost at the bottom between those two ridges.

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Speaker 1: In fact, there's some ranchers said they was listening to

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Speaker 1: the whole thing, and I shot and killed him right there.

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Speaker 1: So how many miles it is, I don't know, but

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Speaker 1: I do know this. I had twenty minutes to get

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Speaker 1: the hide off of him, and it was gonna be dark.

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Speaker 1: I don't have a clue how many miles that is.

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Speaker 1: It has to be in straight line air miles, fifteen

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Speaker 1: air miles. But we're talking about starting at five thousand

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Speaker 1: foot in the elevation, going up and down until he

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Speaker 1: gets a seven thousand foot and then going up and

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Speaker 1: down until you dropped down to Bud elevation. And that's

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Speaker 1: what it took to stop that whole race. I think

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Speaker 1: that's an incredible feed for the dog, has been an

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Speaker 1: incredible feat for a man. This bear is the only

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Speaker 1: bear hide that Ed still has in his home. Ed

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Speaker 1: wrote an incredible book that you're gonna hear about inside

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Speaker 1: of this podcast that tells many of the stories and

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Speaker 1: tales of his twenty five years of hunting California, Utah, Nevada,

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Speaker 1: and Montana with a pack of hounds. Welcome to the

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Speaker 1: Bear Hunting Magazine podcast we Are. This is gonna be

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Speaker 1: a really neat episode. I'm in the home of a

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Speaker 1: man that's become a friend of mine today really um,

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Speaker 1: but I feel like i've I feel like I know

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Speaker 1: you after I read your book. But I'm in the

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Speaker 1: home of of Ed and Lynette Advance and we're in Posey, California,

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Speaker 1: which Ed, I would not have known where Posey, California

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Speaker 1: was until I learned that you lived here. But it's

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Speaker 1: an incredible and beautiful place just south of the Sierra

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Speaker 1: Nevadas or we're in the southern Sierra Nevadas. Is that

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Speaker 1: on the southern southern tip of the Sierra Nevadas, in

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Speaker 1: a mountain range known as the Greenhorn Mountains and Sekoyan

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Speaker 1: National Forest and Sekoya National Monument. Is um right on

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Speaker 1: these Greenhorn Mountains. UM a place that a lot of

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Speaker 1: people really don't know about. In fact, there's people that um,

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Speaker 1: we've met that live in the valley the San Joaquin Valley.

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Speaker 1: They've never even gone up into these mountains and they

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Speaker 1: have no idea what's up here. Um, well, this morning

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Speaker 1: we started off in I mean we were in Los Angeles,

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Speaker 1: Los Angeles, California. Seven seven seven lane going one way,

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Speaker 1: seven lane traffic going the other. And we drove two

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Speaker 1: and a half hours. And I mean we're twenty miles

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Speaker 1: from a gas station. I mean we're more than that.

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Speaker 1: More than that we're in Really, you're forty miles away

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Speaker 1: from a gas station. The only thing that um, the

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Speaker 1: closest little town is a town called Glenville's in Current County.

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Speaker 1: We're until Larry County, and there's not much difference between

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Speaker 1: the two counties actually, but um in Posey, all that

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Speaker 1: we have in Posey as the post office For somebody

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Speaker 1: who doesn't or did not know much about California. California

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Speaker 1: is an incredible state for wildlife and and and really

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Speaker 1: has an incredibly rich history and hunting and and that's

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Speaker 1: why I'm here is uh So. Ed wrote a book

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Speaker 1: called Trained hound Dog. The book was released back in November,

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Speaker 1: and the book is is basically a collection of stories

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Speaker 1: about Ed's life as a as a houndsman, hunting mountain,

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Speaker 1: lions and bears in these mountains right here where we're at.

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Speaker 1: And uh. And so that's what I want to talk

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Speaker 1: to you about today, is I want to I want

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Speaker 1: people to get a feel for for your history and

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Speaker 1: hound hunting and and uh. And in doing that, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna talk about the book. And and we just did

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Speaker 1: a I didn't know ed, wouldn't have known ed, but

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Speaker 1: several months ago it was probably Lynette that contacted me

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Speaker 1: just through Bare Hunting magazine and said, I'd like to

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Speaker 1: send you a book that my husband wrote. And I said, well, sure.

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Speaker 1: And I get a lot of books, and I really

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Speaker 1: do a lot of people. A lot of people write books,

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Speaker 1: and I read a lot of books. And when I

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Speaker 1: read this book, it I could tell that the the

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Speaker 1: voice of this writer was someone special. I really did

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Speaker 1: and uh and I as I as I read the book,

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Speaker 1: I thought, man, I'd like to I'd like to meet

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Speaker 1: that guy and uh. And and it just so happened

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Speaker 1: that our family was coming to California, and so I

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Speaker 1: looked up where Posey, California was, because that's on your

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Speaker 1: Trained by Hound Dog website and it was just a

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Speaker 1: couple of hours out of where we were, and so

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Speaker 1: you graciously said, yeah, come onto the house, fed us lunch,

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Speaker 1: and here we are. I've got my whole family here

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Speaker 1: and uh, and we're here with you and and and

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Speaker 1: so anyway, thank you for hosting. Welcome. We're sure happy

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Speaker 1: to have you here. UM. I hope that this will

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Speaker 1: turn into a um, a long term friendship, and I'm

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Speaker 1: sure I will. You know, I wanted to say something

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Speaker 1: about these mountains here. UM during the during the years

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Speaker 1: of the Bounty for Mountain Lions, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: people have no idea of this, there was a there

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Speaker 1: was a California state line under that lived here and

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Speaker 1: his name was Howard Builton. And I wish that I

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Speaker 1: had have known Howard. He died just about the same

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Speaker 1: time that I started hunting these mountains. But had he

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Speaker 1: been alive when I was doing this, that guy that

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Speaker 1: had a hard time getting rid of me, I'm sure that.

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Speaker 1: But I was really surprised when I moved here and

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Speaker 1: talked to guys that had hound dogs that there was

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Speaker 1: hardly anybody other than the long time residences that even

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Speaker 1: knew that this guy even existed here. But he did,

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Speaker 1: and and like to say, he was a full time

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Speaker 1: line uner for the state of California, and uh, I

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Speaker 1: think he was. I checked his record and in his

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Speaker 1: final years of as a state line unner, he was

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Speaker 1: actually killing about fifteen lions a year, which you know,

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Speaker 1: that's quite a few actually, And some places, you know

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Speaker 1: that the where you have snow all the time to

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Speaker 1: catch your lions, fifteen lions might not sound like a

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Speaker 1: whole lot to some of those people, but here it

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Speaker 1: was predominantly bare ground trailing, and uh so you couldn't

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Speaker 1: just go and roam around these hell was looking for

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Speaker 1: a line track in the snow because it just wasn't

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Speaker 1: it wasn't there, And so the dogs that they used

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Speaker 1: had to be pretty good quality dogs. The hunters had

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Speaker 1: to be totally dedicated, and that's what I found in

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Speaker 1: this part of the country. I've seen some places it

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Speaker 1: was pretty easy to catch lions as compared to others.

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Speaker 1: When I was in Montana, it was definitely one of

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Speaker 1: the easiest places because it's like it's snowed almost every day,

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Speaker 1: and every time that she'd find a line track is

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Speaker 1: just about counting out. It was once very old, you know,

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Speaker 1: but that and then the bear population in in this

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Speaker 1: part of the country is um really good. It's far

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Speaker 1: better than people would have thought it was. UM. The

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Speaker 1: entire Sierra Mountain Range has been and and the Coast

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Speaker 1: Range both have been noted forever for having the a

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Speaker 1: lot of a lot of bears um and a lot

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Speaker 1: of large bears to go with it. And the reasons

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Speaker 1: for that was basically because the winners were short, growing

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Speaker 1: seasons were long, and it was either oak trees or

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Speaker 1: oak brush that's covering all these hills, and those happened

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Speaker 1: to produce acorns, and acorns bears love them and they

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Speaker 1: get fat on them, so so it's it was an

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Speaker 1: area that very unique. But at the same time, a

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Speaker 1: lot of people in this part of the country, they

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Speaker 1: say that they use a term that Posey, California was

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Speaker 1: Tillarry County's best kept secret because nobody seemed to know

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Speaker 1: where it was at. And in fact, even at the

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Speaker 1: county seat. We've had to talk to the people out

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Speaker 1: of the building department and some of them didn't even

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Speaker 1: know where we were and we're in their county. But anyways, no,

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Speaker 1: it's it's a beautiful place. UM. Four seasons winn is

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Speaker 1: the shortest, summer is the longest and a lot of

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Speaker 1: beautiful scenery to go with it. Yeah, Ed, give us

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Speaker 1: a give us a kind of a run through of

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Speaker 1: your well, just let me let me just start off

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Speaker 1: with this. When did you start hunting with hounds and

359
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Speaker 1: how did you get into it? And why? Because you

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Speaker 1: didn't grow up in a family had hound I mean

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Speaker 1: you that was when I first started reading the book.

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Speaker 1: That caught my attention because a lot of time, most

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Speaker 1: of the time, somebody that's in hounds is introduced to

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Speaker 1: it or there's some pretty close connection to them that

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Speaker 1: was able to get them in. But it's almost like

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Speaker 1: you started running hounds just this. Yeah, you know, I

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Speaker 1: always as a kid, I grew up in a suburb

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Speaker 1: for the town by the name of Glendale in California,

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Speaker 1: and in those days, of course, the population wasn't what

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Speaker 1: it was today, and I kind of like the act

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Speaker 1: like I was hunting him because if right from our

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Speaker 1: house you just go off in the hills, they're just

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Speaker 1: covered with brush and just kind of make believe, you know.

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Speaker 1: But over time I drifted away from that, and then

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Speaker 1: I found myself working in an assembly plant for Chevrolet

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Speaker 1: in Van Eys, California, and directly across the line from

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Speaker 1: me was a a guy by the name of Sherwood Barrett,

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Speaker 1: and uh he was from Georgia and and sure what

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Speaker 1: he he was a Mormon. And he told me, he

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Speaker 1: says that he left Georgia and he's on his way

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Speaker 1: to Salt Lake City and because he wanted to live there,

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Speaker 1: but he had to get go someplace and earn some

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Speaker 1: money in the process. And so he was I was

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Speaker 1: putting gas lines, gasoline lines on these cards as they passed,

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Speaker 1: if fifty something an hour, and so we'd get a

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Speaker 1: few moments every now and then to visit. And he

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Speaker 1: started telling me about chasing these hound dogs in the

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Speaker 1: Oki Finocchi Swamp in Georgia, and uh, it really caught

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Speaker 1: my interests. I mean it really did. And they're on

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Speaker 1: ragged coons. Yeah, and uh so anyways, he teld me

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Speaker 1: these stories about this what he was doing, and it

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Speaker 1: just really caught my interest. And so I asked him,

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Speaker 1: I said, Sherwood, where would you where do you go

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Speaker 1: to buy these dogs? And he told me, says, he

395
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 1: could have like outdoor life. They had these guys advertising him.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know at the time that most of those

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Speaker 1: guys were selling dogs nobody wanted, you know, and people

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Speaker 1: like myself and buy him because I didn't know what

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Speaker 1: I was buying in the first place. So anyways, I

400
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Speaker 1: started with that. And what was your intention? Was your

401
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Speaker 1: intention to run lion? Or I just wanted I like dogs,

402
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Speaker 1: and I liked the idea of hunting and as honey

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Speaker 1: with dogs sounding it good. So you would have been

404
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Speaker 1: in your early twenties probably at this time I was.

405
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Speaker 1: I was just I just wanted some hunting dogs. I

406
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 1: was like twenty years old, and nobody in my family

407
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 1: it had never even heard of it. And so I

408
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: ordered a dog from him, and I got a red

409
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:56,920
Speaker 1: bone hound and uh his nice looking dog actually golden Buck.

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Speaker 1: He seemed to know his name. So I got this dog,

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Speaker 1: and I didn't know where to go hunting, so I

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Speaker 1: took off and I went up and in the in

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Speaker 1: the mountains up by Ventura, which is just covered with brush,

414
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Speaker 1: and I actually a terrible place to try and hunt dogs.

415
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:16,439
Speaker 1: And I never caught anything with him. And then I

416
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: started meeting different guys that had hound dogs and they

417
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 1: weren't doing any good either, and uh so I pooled

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Speaker 1: around with those different fellas and and the dogs that

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Speaker 1: they had and the couple of dogs that I had,

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Speaker 1: And eventually I learned that what these dogs were chasing

421
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Speaker 1: was not anything they could climb a tree at all.

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Speaker 1: But the guys that are hunting with they were just

423
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: fooling themselves about, you know, what they're really but they

424
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: were after but they were probably chasing deer. They were

425
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,439
Speaker 1: chasing deer, That's what they were chasing, you know. So

426
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Speaker 1: if the time went by, and the next thing I knew,

427
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Speaker 1: I was introduced to guy out of Utah by the

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Speaker 1: name of Willis but Off, which was a very well

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Speaker 1: known government hunter and had caught hundreds of lions, unbelievable

430
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 1: numbers of lions. I mean it had really caught them

431
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 1: too as well. And so I got with him and

432
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 1: hunted with him a few times, and I bought a

433
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 1: few dogs from him, and from there I started learning

434
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 1: about the difference between hunting dogs and taking dogs hunting

435
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 1: and kitchen stuff and uh so, then from there I

436
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 1: ended up losing a couple of these dogs too too,

437
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: tenady poison, which was terrible, terrible situation. And that was

438
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: in Utah. And then I ended up meeting a guy

439
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 1: it lived. It was he worked for a big farm

440
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 1: out of Wacoe, California, and he said that the people

441
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:03,120
Speaker 1: told me that he had a hound that he might

442
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:08,400
Speaker 1: sell because of his age, and I got in touch

443
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 1: with him. Guy's name is J. D. Reynolds, and he

444
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: had this red dick count that he said he would sell,

445
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 1: and I bought him, and I couldn't believe what I

446
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 1: had bought. I went from from not catching anything to

447
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 1: speak of, to every time I put that dog's filled

448
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: on the ground, he caught something. And he didn't run deer,

449
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: he didn't run coyotes, and he caught bobcats and raccoons

450
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: and foxes every time he hit the ground practically, And

451
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 1: from there I started learning the difference between good dogs,

452
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: mediocre dogs, and dogs that just darn't any good. And

453
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 1: so on the book that I titled the title Trained

454
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: by a Hound Dog, that title was really thinking about

455
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 1: this dog, this red tick down, which we called bow

456
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: and Uh, like I said, he was six years older

457
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: than I got him. I was working as a carpenter

458
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 1: framing houses in Thousand Oaks, California, where framing houses there

459
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: as a carpenter was more like an athletic contest, and

460
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: it was anything else because it is all peace work.

461
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 1: And then and you didn't get paid much for the

462
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 1: for what she did. And if you're gonna have any

463
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 1: money at all, you're gonna work like you're fighting fire

464
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: from the moment you got there until it was time

465
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 1: to go home, which I did, and I'd take and

466
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: load bow up on Friday nights and i'd head off

467
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 1: from Ventura, California to the Green Worn Mountains, which is

468
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: where we're at right now, and Wish is where bow

469
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 1: was read actually trained. He came from Arkansas. He was

470
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 1: a red Dack count um out of the Elbert Vaughan

471
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 1: stock of English Towns, which eventually became the ober One

472
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: Blue Ticks, but in those days he was still dealing

473
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 1: with registered English dogs and which is the same thing basically,

474
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: just different colors. And I think that first year I'd

475
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 1: i'd get off work and I'd drove all the way

476
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: up here, which was three and a half to four

477
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 1: hours each way, after working all all week. And I

478
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 1: think that first year I had Bowen and I bought

479
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 1: a a plothound. I called him Pat and he was

480
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: like two years old when I got him. Bo wouldn't

481
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: run a line at all. He wouldn't I'd find a

482
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 1: line track was fresh, and he wouldn't pay any attention.

483
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: But Pat had been on some lions. I got Pat

484
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 1: from Willis butt Off in Utah, and he'd been on

485
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 1: these lines, and so he he was eager more eager

486
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 1: to try and trail. And then Bow was bo didn't care.

487
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 1: And I think I caught on Friday night hunting Friday

488
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: nights and Saturday right out a hundred animals that first year.

489
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 1: And that was driving four hours each way to go

490
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: after putting in five days of slave labor type work,

491
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: you know, which it was very impressive to me. And

492
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: it was basically bobcats and foxes with so they tree

493
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,719
Speaker 1: these foxes and these little oak trees. They do three here,

494
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: that's called a great cross fox. And um, there are

495
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 1: a lot harder to tree than the bobcats are. And

496
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: but then two and then in the summer months you

497
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 1: had to have something that was really good too to

498
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 1: be able to even trail any of it, because the

499
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 1: trailing conditions got really poor, very dry conditions, very difficult

500
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 1: for most towns to be able to to catch much

501
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: of anything in the summer months. And uh, but it

502
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: didn't seem to make any difference, that dog would do it.

503
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 1: And so that anyway, that's the the title of trained

504
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 1: by a hound dog was that I was taught by

505
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 1: a hound dog named Bow. He taught you what a

506
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: what a good dog was supposed to do. He not

507
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: only what is supposed to be, but I was able

508
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: to use him to take younger dogs and train them,

509
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: and UH and I and and the experience that I

510
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 1: had had prior to this, I did learn that one

511
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 1: of the things that hound under doesn't want to do

512
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: with his dogs is get him in bad company. And

513
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: up until I had gotten Um introduced to Willis, buttop

514
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 1: most of the hunting that I did with anybody was

515
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: his old dogs and bad company. And the Bow was

516
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: he was straight as a clean dog. And from there

517
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 1: I started um having other dogs. And you started really

518
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: searching across the country I did for for hounds I did.

519
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 1: You would have been now, so you're still in your

520
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 1: early twenties, and that's when you set out to try

521
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 1: to get a sustainable pack of hounds. Yeah, I was

522
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 1: about twenty five years old. I guess when I got Bow,

523
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 1: maybe twenty six at the most. What year would that

524
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: have been in the sixties. Yeah, I think I got

525
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: bow in sixty three or sixty four. He was born

526
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: in ninety. He was born in Paraguld, Arkansas, and which

527
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 1: is where Albert lived. But Elbert didn't have him, but

528
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 1: Elbert owned the father to him. And now you went

529
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 1: and spent some time down there. I did because j D. Reynolds,

530
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: this guy in Waco that I got it got the

531
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: dog from. He was from Paraguld and he grew up

532
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 1: with Albert Vaughan and j D told me that, uh,

533
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 1: if I was interested in that line of dog, it'd

534
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,399
Speaker 1: probably would be a good idea for me to take

535
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 1: off and go back and visit with Elbert, which I did,

536
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 1: and uh I stayed with Elbert for I think it's

537
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:20,399
Speaker 1: about three months, and uh Ever wanted to hire me.

538
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 1: He ever worked in a shoe factory and so that

539
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 1: was pretty full time for him, and he didn't have

540
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 1: the finances or the time to be able to taking

541
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 1: all these wild coon hunts and stuff like that. But

542
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 1: he he figured that he could make enough money to

543
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 1: pay me something and give me room and board, and

544
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 1: I'd stay there and I'd take his dogs to these

545
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,839
Speaker 1: to these cop nuts. And but I did. I wasn't.

546
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't want to do it. I just

547
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 1: wasn't cut out for that. Uh. And I love these

548
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: mountains here and there of course Paragold, Organsas was just

549
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,839
Speaker 1: out on the flat lands. And but I did learn this.

550
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: He had awfully good dogs and he really did, There's

551
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 1: no doubt about that. And while I was there, I

552
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 1: was able to pick up a pup from him, which

553
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,800
Speaker 1: was not easy to do um at the time. And

554
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 1: I called him Sailor. And Sailor was was out of

555
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: a female that he called Lula the second. And I

556
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 1: did learn at that time from the Elbert that of

557
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: his blue ticks, which he had a number of different

558
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 1: families of them, that those that have that came out

559
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 1: of the the stock of dogs who was sired by

560
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 1: a dog called Floridy Curly, which was owned by a

561
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 1: guy named Jake Size and Coffeeville, Mississippi. Um, he got

562
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,879
Speaker 1: a dog named Curly and out of that and from

563
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:02,319
Speaker 1: there he got a female called Lula. Uh And and

564
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 1: I learned that anything that came out of Lula was

565
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 1: going to be pretty hard to beat, especially if it

566
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 1: came to speed. And I took, of course, Sailor. He

567
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:20,959
Speaker 1: was out a little of the second. Elbert also told

568
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 1: me that in breeding, his experience would he had a

569
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 1: lot of it. In breeding in families of dogs, he said,

570
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: to duplicate. If you're trying to duplicate a dog, he said,

571
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 1: the chances are you'll see the duplication and the grandparents

572
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 1: before you'll see it in the parents two generations. Now, yes, yes,

573
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: and and I could see that um sometimes with the

574
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 1: in breeding with these dogs, that the grandchildren would be

575
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:57,280
Speaker 1: more likely to be like the grandparents. Then the children

576
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:04,839
Speaker 1: would be by the parent itself. And of course, now

577
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: Lula the second happened to be excuse me. Lula was

578
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: Sailor's grandmother. And as time went by, Sailor kept getting

579
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 1: better and better and better, and finally he passed up Bow.

580
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 1: Of course, Boat had a few years on. He was

581
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: getting a little old, but he still did. Sada was

582
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 1: getting faster and faster and faster, and he died at

583
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 1: the age of seven and a half. Um through heartworm

584
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 1: treatment is what took him out. In this part of

585
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 1: the world, it seemed like with the guys that had

586
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 1: dogs that could catch bobcats regularly or foxes, it usually

587
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 1: would take half an hour to get him to go

588
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 1: up a tree anyways under good trailing conditions. When Sailor

589
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 1: got to worry, he's about five years old. I was

590
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: done with the bobcat. I mean because I was I

591
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: was full time guiding then and it was just lions

592
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 1: and bears, and I didn't have a need or and

593
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 1: interest for chasing bobcats. But I would still have to

594
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,879
Speaker 1: hunt the dogs loose to um to hunt to find

595
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 1: lions because or bears, because we didn't have snow over

596
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 1: conditions to find tracks that way, and and they get

597
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: on a bobcat. Well, I didn't want dogs out there

598
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,359
Speaker 1: wearing themselves out, Jason a bobcat when I'm out there

599
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 1: trying to find a lion. Um And come to find out,

600
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 1: these thirty minutes forty five minute bobcat chases started getting

601
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:45,399
Speaker 1: shorter and shorter and shorter. And the last two years

602
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 1: of that dog's life, um, he would catch thirty five

603
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 1: forty bobcats a year. I don't remember. I didn't keep

604
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 1: track to the foxes, but um, if any bobcat can

605
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 1: still on the ground three minutes, he was on the

606
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 1: ground a long time after he jumped it, and most

607
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 1: of them would be within a minute, two minute and

608
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,720
Speaker 1: a half. And that you know, and I'm not bragging,

609
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 1: I'm just dating facts. Dot is how fast that dog?

610
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: And that was sailor that you got directly? Yes, And

611
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 1: then I ended up with a um a granddaughter of

612
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: sailors who was killed at a very young age, um

613
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 1: accidental death. And this was in Montana, and it appeared

614
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 1: as though that she had that speed as well, that

615
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: most dogs wouldn't have. I just I couldn't. I just

616
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 1: couldn't find anybody that or hunted with anybody that had

617
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 1: dogs you could run that fast. It just it was

618
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 1: just everything was a one dog grace once he was jumped.

619
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:58,759
Speaker 1: But anyways, from there, I stayed in California until we

620
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 1: got drun out of here. Um But let me can

621
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 1: I back up a little bit? So what year so

622
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: you got interested in hounds, You got a good hound,

623
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: started treeting some bobcats and foxes when you were by

624
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 1: this time your mid twenties. And then when did you

625
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 1: start outfitting for Barren Line? Because that's what the that's

626
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 1: what the book is primarily about. It's talking about your

627
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 1: years as an outfitter. Yes, I started, Okay, I started

628
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 1: advertising I'd hurt my back really bad in framing houses,

629
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 1: and I I just couldn't um. I couldn't keep doing it.

630
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:37,359
Speaker 1: So I left Ventura and I moved to this area

631
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 1: where we're out here. That was in um nineteen sixties

632
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 1: six when I moved here. I've been keeping mind, have

633
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: been hunting it for about three or four years, been

634
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 1: traveling back and forth. But I moved here full time.

635
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 1: Started running some ads in the magazine, like Outdoor Life magazine,

636
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 1: and I was I was so poor. I was poor

637
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 1: as a church mouse is a sayings go, you know,

638
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,239
Speaker 1: and living in the back of my truck at the

639
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 1: same time. But anyways, I uh renting an old shock,

640
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 1: moved into that started advertising, and uh, I started getting

641
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 1: some customers. And you said, a little bit of ad

642
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 1: in the Outdoor Life, said Barren Mountain Lion the Hounds

643
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 1: in California, fifty dollars a month, fifty dollars a month

644
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 1: from one call a mench add and I wish it

645
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,239
Speaker 1: was just it was it was just about broke me

646
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 1: to have to pay that advertisement, you know, but you

647
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 1: paid or you didn't get any any others. And it

648
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:45,319
Speaker 1: started to grow from there, you know, and then I

649
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:50,359
Speaker 1: ended up having a U. I guess people started knowing

650
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:55,320
Speaker 1: a little bit a bit about me being there, and uh,

651
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 1: I knew this guy lived up at Sugarlow Village and

652
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 1: he said that he knew I that worked for the

653
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 1: LA Times, and he talked to him about what I

654
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 1: was doing. And they've wanted to know if they could

655
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:11,800
Speaker 1: come up here and I'd take them lyne under. They

656
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 1: run an article in the Los Angeles Times, so you know,

657
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,359
Speaker 1: I said, well, yeah, okay, let's do it. And this

658
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,479
Speaker 1: was obviously time was a little more favorable to hunt

659
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 1: lions in California. It was what it was a little

660
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: more favorable back then the bounty had the bounty had

661
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 1: been taken off, that was in and I wasn't against

662
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 1: them taking that bounty off. I didn't think they needed

663
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 1: to do anything like that. Um And the lion population,

664
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:49,800
Speaker 1: according to bounties, numbers of bounties annually had dropped significantly. Um,

665
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:51,839
Speaker 1: you know, because just like there were years that they

666
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 1: bounty four hundred lions in a year and now they

667
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 1: were down to like a hundred lions a year. That's

668
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 1: for the entire state. So they really didn't need to

669
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,399
Speaker 1: be paying people to do this. There's guys are gonna

670
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 1: do it. Anyways, he's doing it for fun. So anyways,

671
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 1: these guys came up, guy named Dewey Lindsay and with

672
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 1: him was this photographer that worked for the HES, a

673
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 1: freelance photographer and he worked for UH basically worked for

674
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:22,439
Speaker 1: a national geographic And here I am twenty five years

675
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 1: old with about three three hound dogs and UH I

676
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 1: got these high powered professionals from Los Angeles come up here.

677
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:34,800
Speaker 1: I want me to catch a line? They said, I

678
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 1: only got three days to do it. In Well, the

679
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 1: pressure was really on because trying to trying to you know,

680
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: there's one thing to catch a lion. Were you just

681
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: out there hunting and you run into him and you

682
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 1: catch him as a as they become available. But if

683
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 1: you're gonna do this as as a profession and you've

684
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 1: got people coming in and you're gonna you're on a

685
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 1: no catch, no pay, which I was it those days,

686
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 1: no catch, no no catch, no pay you. If you

687
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,880
Speaker 1: didn't catch, you, you didn't get paid anything. Was that

688
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: common back then or is that just something that you

689
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 1: wanted to know? I know that was common. That was

690
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 1: the way it was everywhere. Um all of them through

691
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 1: the Mountain States. Everybody, no catch, no pay. You had

692
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 1: to show for these people around and pay for their

693
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:23,799
Speaker 1: food and sometimes drive a couple hundred miles each way

694
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 1: to an airport to pick them up and take them back.

695
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:28,759
Speaker 1: And UH, if you didn't catch them a line, you

696
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 1: didn't get paid anything. So that the pressure was on,

697
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 1: you know, and UH made for some good outfitters, didn't it.

698
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 1: It separated them, It truly did. And I caught him

699
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:47,359
Speaker 1: a lion on the on the third day. And you're

700
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 1: just dry ground line hunting, so you're just roaming around

701
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 1: freecasting the dogs on your horse at that time. I

702
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 1: didn't know I wasn't using horse. What what I'd have

703
00:44:57,480 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 1: to do is I just had to go places where

704
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 1: I knew that lions would frequent and and that's you know,

705
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 1: they're they're kind of a a strange animal in that,

706
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:10,240
Speaker 1: um do you find lines that would certain use certain

707
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 1: areas and airs I close by, they wouldn't even go

708
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: and bother over there. And so I would go to

709
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:22,840
Speaker 1: these places where I knew that it either caught lines

710
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 1: already or I had seen lions. I was really looking

711
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 1: for some place where I could find a lion track,

712
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 1: knowing that I hadn't already caught the thing and h

713
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 1: So anyways, we ended up catching the line and they

714
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 1: they ran this story in the what's we called West

715
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 1: magazine to the Los Angeles Time, it's a weekend magazine.

716
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 1: Through that ad, it it generated quite a bit of

717
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 1: business for me. And uh, next thing I knew I

718
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 1: was I was sober, so dull, gone poor, hurting for

719
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: money so bad that i'd coast home I'd find when

720
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 1: I'd be driving home, I turned the motor off so

721
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 1: I didn't burn the gas tree going downhill of it.

722
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:03,319
Speaker 1: And the next thing I knew that I could leave

723
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 1: the motor running and you were catching some eight lines,

724
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:10,839
Speaker 1: You could leave the motor running when you go down

725
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 1: the hill. Yeah, yeah, I was really getting rich. You know.

726
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 1: I'd like to say this too, that that was during

727
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 1: the years that I did all this. Um, I wouldn't

728
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:27,799
Speaker 1: trade the memories of that for anything at all. I mean,

729
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 1: it was just something that was just really important to me,

730
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 1: and I I cherished those memories. But I'll tell you what,

731
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: I was so poor it took every penny that I

732
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 1: made to feed those dogs buy new ones if I

733
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 1: needed to buy a dog, um pay for gas. Trucks

734
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 1: didn't last very long in those days. Uh, seventy thousand

735
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 1: miles on a truck that I was driving news By one,

736
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:01,960
Speaker 1: brand new and seventy thousand miles later it was pretty

737
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 1: rough shape. So so anyways, from from there, UM, I

738
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:12,359
Speaker 1: stayed in California, UM doing the line in the bearing

739
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 1: and I took the I started hunting bears in northern California.

740
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:20,359
Speaker 1: I'd run into a guy and his two boys one

741
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 1: day on a dead end road down here, this is

742
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 1: in Current County. I just called a lion and as

743
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 1: a young guy with me. His name is Roy Stevenson.

744
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 1: He's still a good friend, and he retired out of

745
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 1: Current County Fire Department, and uh he was with me.

746
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 1: He was it's on his sixteenth birthday. He told me.

747
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:43,439
Speaker 1: He says he wanted to go go hunting and see

748
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:47,799
Speaker 1: if maybe we catch a line together. And it was

749
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 1: it was December, I think, and we caught this line,

750
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 1: but we got a flat tire in the process of

751
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 1: trying to stay with the dogs, and uh, we were

752
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 1: just about ready to leave and we're right at the

753
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:06,239
Speaker 1: end of the dead end road. Anyways, at the end

754
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 1: of the road couldn't be five feet away from us.

755
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,319
Speaker 1: And I looked down the road and there's these two

756
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 1: boys standing there with four hound dogs and asked Roy Stevenson.

757
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 1: I said, do you know I know those kids? He says,

758
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 1: I've never seen him in my life, and uh there

759
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 1: was a friendship that is still going on today. The

760
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 1: two boys is Bobby Bridges and Gary Bridges. They lived

761
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 1: in by Reading and their father Jim Bridges, who has

762
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:36,839
Speaker 1: now passed on. We hit it off really well, and

763
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:39,279
Speaker 1: uh so the next thing I knew, I was up

764
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 1: there taking bare hunts and shot to county and Jim

765
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: Bridges was giving me a hand at it. And I

766
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 1: ended up buying three of those dogs that we're standing

767
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 1: at the end of the road that day from Jim,

768
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 1: and all of them wonderful dogs, outstanding dogs. Um to

769
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 1: say the least I say, to say they were good

770
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 1: dogs wasn't really much of a compliment. Um, they were

771
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 1: exceptionally good dogs. And so like I said, Jim, of

772
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 1: course he's he passed on. Unfortunately they were. They were

773
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 1: all timber followers. Jim was one of the actually one

774
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 1: of the finest men that I think I've ever known

775
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 1: in my life. You could believe anything he said, and

776
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:25,319
Speaker 1: you can't find any of him that you can do

777
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 1: that with. And if he said a dog was was

778
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 1: a good dog, it was a good dog, and it

779
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:36,240
Speaker 1: was a good dog by his standards, and his standards

780
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 1: were quite a bit above when a lot of guys

781
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:43,319
Speaker 1: standards for good dogs were um. But it was just

782
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:47,240
Speaker 1: a wonderful friendship that developed. And the and the bears

783
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 1: um at that time in these Green Arm Mountains, which

784
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:55,719
Speaker 1: is where we're at, the bear poplace was was very

785
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 1: poor and necessary. They had had a from what I understand,

786
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 1: they had had a drought, a severe drought in the

787
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 1: late nineteen fifties, and they said that the bears went

788
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 1: clear to the San Joaquin Valley in those years. And

789
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:18,879
Speaker 1: in those years they were using the poison called ten

790
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:23,839
Speaker 1: eight to kill ground squirrels and everything else. And ten

791
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 1: eight is a kind of a poison that if a

792
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:29,479
Speaker 1: ground squirrel eats it, and something comes along and eats

793
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 1: the ground squirrel, it's gonna kill that thing too. And

794
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 1: I kind of think that between the drought and the

795
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:44,319
Speaker 1: widespread poisoning ground squirrels in these mountains, that had just

796
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 1: about wiped the bear population out for a long, long

797
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 1: ways away, and it wasn't until about nineteen sixty eight,

798
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 1: which would be about ten years after that drought that

799
00:50:55,320 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 1: we started finding that was super good. How long did

800
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 1: you just to give an overview, so you started you

801
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 1: started guiding in what year and ended in what year? Okay?

802
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 1: I started guiding in nineteen sixty six, late nineteen seventies.

803
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 1: I quit guiding. I didn't quit hunting. I quit guiding. Yeah,

804
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:23,400
Speaker 1: and um I was in Montana when I quit. So

805
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:27,040
Speaker 1: you guided for about fifteen years or so close to it? Yeah, yeah,

806
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 1: close to it. I know in your book you talk

807
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 1: about you talk about and this is one thing that

808
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 1: intrigued me, was you hunted on horseback a lot um

809
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:39,719
Speaker 1: was that one of your favorite ways to hunt ed

810
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:42,919
Speaker 1: was hunting on horseback with the dogs free range and out.

811
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 1: I did enjoy that. It was, you know, the easiest

812
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:50,239
Speaker 1: way to hunt dogs, just to turn the dogs loose

813
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 1: and let them run down the road in front of

814
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:53,880
Speaker 1: a pickout and the fallen in a truck, which is

815
00:51:53,960 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 1: very common then in common today, but in iron hunting.

816
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:05,920
Speaker 1: Sometimes with what I was doing, see how I couldn't

817
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 1: catch lines? That just my leisure it didn't make any difference.

818
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 1: If I was out there and called a line, I

819
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 1: didn't have any anyone with me. I didn't do me

820
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 1: any good. I didn't get paid anything. And I was

821
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:22,240
Speaker 1: full time doing this, so I needed a paying customer

822
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:25,920
Speaker 1: to be with me, and a paying customer had to

823
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:28,359
Speaker 1: be there when I caught it. I mean I could

824
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 1: catch I could catch the line the day after the

825
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:32,840
Speaker 1: guy left, and it didn't do me any good because

826
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:35,719
Speaker 1: he left and he took his money with him when

827
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 1: he was when he left, you know. So during those

828
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 1: years I had to go wherever the lions were at

829
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:46,279
Speaker 1: and and it's like most of the hunts were like

830
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 1: one week hunts, and during that week period of time,

831
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 1: I had to come up with the lion. And if

832
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 1: I didn't come with the lion, I just got to

833
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 1: I just got to pay the bill all by myself,

834
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 1: you know. And did happen very often? Did you catch?

835
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 1: Most most people live? You know, I was running. I

836
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:07,480
Speaker 1: thought a pretty high percentage and I'm talking, I'm you know,

837
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 1: I've I hear guys give their their percentages, and sometimes

838
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:16,360
Speaker 1: you you have to question whether there's any truth to

839
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 1: that um because of weather conditions and things that can

840
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 1: happen to you while you're hunting. But on the both

841
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 1: the line, the both line and bearns, I was hitting

842
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 1: pretty close to hum, which meant you if you had

843
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:38,279
Speaker 1: if you had a guy on a line and you're

844
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:40,759
Speaker 1: gonna he's gonna give you five days or like in

845
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 1: this case with the newspaper, they gave three. Um, you

846
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:48,439
Speaker 1: didn't get much time to do that. So you better

847
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:50,880
Speaker 1: know where there's one at. And so to do that,

848
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:57,360
Speaker 1: I had to stay active, actively looking, even if I

849
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 1: had nobody with me. Well, here comes the whole snout. Okay,

850
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 1: I drive Rhodes, I look for tracks alongside the rose

851
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:09,360
Speaker 1: walks and trails, but you can only walk so far. Um.

852
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:12,040
Speaker 1: Then there's other areas that you know that are pretty

853
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 1: decent for having lions in them. Um. But it didn't

854
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:17,120
Speaker 1: do you any good to go way back in the

855
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:20,480
Speaker 1: back country. If you're gonna take what we used to

856
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 1: call them dudes, take them in there to go catch

857
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 1: a lion, because you had to get them in there too,

858
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:28,400
Speaker 1: you know. So so I would take and I'd use

859
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 1: the horse to scout to constantly look see if I

860
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:34,719
Speaker 1: could find a line, if I caught him, and make

861
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 1: sure I let him go, um, but try and keep

862
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 1: tract of it so that you could hopefully find it again,

863
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 1: which wasn't all that often. I seemed like I guessed

864
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:48,719
Speaker 1: lines let them go, and I never even see their

865
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 1: tracks again. They're just gone. You know, I don't know

866
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:56,000
Speaker 1: what so you weren't. I guess that's obvious. You couldn't

867
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 1: use the horse when you had clients with you, So

868
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 1: you were using that horse to be mobile to find

869
00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 1: lions for when people came in. Basically, yes, but I

870
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:11,120
Speaker 1: did use them on occasion. Um if as an example, Um,

871
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:13,799
Speaker 1: there's a place that I used the horse every time

872
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:16,319
Speaker 1: I went there, and that was up out of a

873
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 1: place called Johnson Dale. There's a trail they're called a

874
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:23,520
Speaker 1: rent con trail. It was very good for having lions

875
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 1: in it, but the Forest Service would lock the road

876
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 1: getting to it, which meant that you had a two

877
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 1: and a half miles behind a locked gate before you

878
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:36,719
Speaker 1: could get to the rent Cotton trail. And it was

879
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:39,799
Speaker 1: all up hill get into it, you know, So so

880
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:41,879
Speaker 1: you had to use horses to do that, and I did.

881
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:45,480
Speaker 1: I did use horses to take guys in there, and

882
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 1: it was almost always you could find you could find

883
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 1: something going on in there, lines hanging out in some

884
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:59,759
Speaker 1: place in that you know. Um, but anyways, um, how

885
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 1: many did I catch is compared to driving roads? I

886
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 1: caught more driving roads mm hmm, just because you can

887
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:11,279
Speaker 1: travel fast, just it's an efficient way to hunt. It is,

888
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:13,880
Speaker 1: you can travel much fatter. You're looking for an actual track,

889
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:18,719
Speaker 1: dirt track in the road. That's right, Dusty Rhodes. You

890
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 1: try and find these roads of where the roads are

891
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:24,479
Speaker 1: just powder on them, you know, And did you get where?

892
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 1: You were really good at seeing a track? I mean,

893
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:28,360
Speaker 1: I know what I'm hunted with these guys out in

894
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:34,640
Speaker 1: Tennessee that that are there looking for tracks crossing gravel

895
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:38,279
Speaker 1: roads and places where bears skid down banks, you know,

896
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:40,640
Speaker 1: and leaves, and they can see things a lot of

897
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:46,239
Speaker 1: people wouldn't see. They're they're really trained to see like that. Yes. Yeah,

898
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 1: it's like I used to tell people, I said, you know,

899
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:53,439
Speaker 1: I could walk right through her toor deer not even

900
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:56,759
Speaker 1: see any of them because I can't I see their track,

901
00:56:56,880 --> 00:57:00,200
Speaker 1: but I can't look up because I'm just look came

902
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 1: down so much that I just automatically look at the ground.

903
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:07,319
Speaker 1: You see what's in the still find yourself doing that

904
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:11,960
Speaker 1: today when you're out. I do the ground right here

905
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 1: on our property. But do I'm just looking at the

906
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:16,919
Speaker 1: ground and see what the what kind of tracks? Any

907
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:19,680
Speaker 1: tricks for finding line tracks with your eyes? I mean

908
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 1: anything you look for? Did they cross? And I'm sure

909
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 1: they crossed in certain places? Or is it just totally

910
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:31,959
Speaker 1: arbitrary where they cross? You know what? Lions? Um? They

911
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:40,640
Speaker 1: they seemed him use trails. They're obvious to you. You

912
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:42,400
Speaker 1: get to the point to where you could you could

913
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:45,600
Speaker 1: you find a lion track? You're walking up a canyon,

914
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:48,760
Speaker 1: you find a lion track, and just going a certain direction,

915
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:52,800
Speaker 1: you look off in the in the distance. You can

916
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 1: just about say if this line has gone that far

917
00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:01,080
Speaker 1: whatever that is a mild or whatever it is. The

918
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:04,960
Speaker 1: chances are he went right through there, and and you

919
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 1: almost you can predict where he was. Yes, you almost

920
00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:10,840
Speaker 1: always right, just just by trailing so many of them?

921
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:16,680
Speaker 1: You know? And would you? So you you outfitted for

922
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:20,760
Speaker 1: lying and bear? What was your favorite? What was your

923
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 1: favorite to chase with your hounds? I love chasing bears.

924
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:31,600
Speaker 1: Did you more than lyons? Oh that's hard to say. Um,

925
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:34,720
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what I liked about about the lion hunt.

926
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:41,040
Speaker 1: I really did enjoy catching a lion. Where the dogs

927
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 1: would start with a track. There was almost nothing where

928
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 1: they doubt they and you had to have dogs had

929
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:53,320
Speaker 1: good cold noses to where they've done. You find a

930
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:57,040
Speaker 1: lion track in the dirt, and you point at it,

931
00:58:57,040 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 1: and they stick the nose down there. They couldn't smell it,

932
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:02,600
Speaker 1: but they they knew you were pointing something out and

933
00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:06,160
Speaker 1: they started looking and they find a twig that had

934
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:09,760
Speaker 1: touched that animals side, and they could smell it on

935
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:13,640
Speaker 1: that twig, and they'd bark. And you look at the

936
00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 1: ground where they're at and there's that lion's track. Mhm.

937
00:59:18,320 --> 00:59:23,160
Speaker 1: And you start from that and maybe ten miles later

938
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 1: you're looking at the lion. That to me made it

939
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:33,920
Speaker 1: all worthwhile. That was that was hunting dogs. That's not

940
00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:37,880
Speaker 1: that wasn't hunting lions. That was taking dogs and seeing

941
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:42,760
Speaker 1: them at their very finest. And I just loved that. Um.

942
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:46,480
Speaker 1: I know there's lots of lines that I'd caught people

943
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 1: that I had taken in the past. After writing this book,

944
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:51,880
Speaker 1: they had asked me about it, and I forgot all

945
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:54,560
Speaker 1: about it because they were they were what we call

946
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:57,400
Speaker 1: it pop up. You know, you you you cut the

947
00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:00,120
Speaker 1: track and it was fresh. The lion wasn't very far

948
01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 1: away with you, so that was the easy one. Those

949
01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:05,640
Speaker 1: are these pop upportunity to forget about them, but those

950
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:07,520
Speaker 1: ones that where you get out out to those things.

951
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:12,880
Speaker 1: Then you go all day long just working, sometimes in

952
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:16,720
Speaker 1: the summertime where the dogs just just taking both of you.

953
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:18,480
Speaker 1: You gotta find the track to help the dog, and

954
01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:20,720
Speaker 1: the dog to take the track a little ways where

955
01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:23,320
Speaker 1: you couldn't find it, and next thing you know, they

956
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 1: turned that thing into a movable track, and like save

957
01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:33,959
Speaker 1: later you're looking at it. One thing that you did,

958
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:38,000
Speaker 1: and this I noticed inside the book, was you did

959
01:00:38,080 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 1: some incredible athletic feats. In my mind following these dogs.

960
01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:47,920
Speaker 1: I mean we we talked earlier at the beginning of

961
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:52,040
Speaker 1: the podcast about a hunt where you probably went twenty

962
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:55,880
Speaker 1: five miles by foot in a single day in these mountains.

963
01:00:56,200 --> 01:01:00,920
Speaker 1: I mean, were you a exceptional I mean what what?

964
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:05,160
Speaker 1: Were you? A really great athlete? And no, as a

965
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:07,360
Speaker 1: matter of fact, is as an infant, I had to

966
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 1: Birkendulsis and they've figured that I would um never be

967
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:19,600
Speaker 1: able to do anything athleticalized. But then I'd Also, it

968
01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:23,919
Speaker 1: learned that your lungs can repair, and apparently mine did.

969
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:31,000
Speaker 1: And you know I would go places that following a

970
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:34,800
Speaker 1: hound dog. I wouldn't even think of going there. But

971
01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:39,720
Speaker 1: it was because the dogs and I were doing this together.

972
01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:46,320
Speaker 1: This wasn't a situation where let me put it like this,

973
01:01:48,280 --> 01:01:50,280
Speaker 1: but the numbers of lines that I caught, I let

974
01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:53,040
Speaker 1: a lot, let a lot of them go, Just let

975
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:55,960
Speaker 1: them go. Same with bears. I'll let hundreds of bears go.

976
01:01:56,440 --> 01:01:59,600
Speaker 1: I mean hundreds. I don't mean one hundred. I don't

977
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:04,320
Speaker 1: mean to hundred. I mean maybe like three hundred treed bears.

978
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:08,000
Speaker 1: Just let them go. One day, we caught five bears

979
01:02:08,040 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 1: one day in Montana, which is against a lot of

980
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:13,840
Speaker 1: chase a bear in Montana, but we did it anyways,

981
01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:18,640
Speaker 1: and we caught five bears, separate bears, not traveling together,

982
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:22,360
Speaker 1: no cubs, let every single one of them go. Um,

983
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:27,080
Speaker 1: it was all about dog hunting. But in order for

984
01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:29,960
Speaker 1: me to do this with these dogs, I had to

985
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:32,840
Speaker 1: take people along that would pay me to do it,

986
01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:35,560
Speaker 1: and to do that, they had to shoot it. So

987
01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:39,919
Speaker 1: so we did that. But anyways, I've lost my train

988
01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:43,160
Speaker 1: of thought. What was your question? And just being an

989
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:45,320
Speaker 1: athletic feat to do what you did, and you had

990
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:52,439
Speaker 1: tuberculosis as a kid. I did. Now there's a lot

991
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:55,880
Speaker 1: of times, you know, I keep telling myself, no pain,

992
01:02:55,960 --> 01:03:00,800
Speaker 1: no gain, you know, and um, but if I if

993
01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:03,920
Speaker 1: I could hear those dogs, I'm going to him. And

994
01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:07,400
Speaker 1: there was one time in my entire career that my

995
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:10,760
Speaker 1: dogs treat a bear and I didn't go to him.

996
01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:13,720
Speaker 1: I started to go to him, but had two guys

997
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:17,080
Speaker 1: with me. This is up in Shasta County, and they

998
01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:19,280
Speaker 1: treat a bear in his place called hell Soul. That's

999
01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:22,800
Speaker 1: with the name of that canyon m And that canyon

1000
01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:26,360
Speaker 1: is so steep that you had to hang on to

1001
01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:30,800
Speaker 1: stuff as you're going downhill, otherwise you're gonna just start sliding.

1002
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:33,120
Speaker 1: And you go all the way to the bottom mm hmm.

1003
01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:39,120
Speaker 1: And from where the where we started the bear they

1004
01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:42,160
Speaker 1: dropped off into canyon is about feet in elevation to

1005
01:03:42,240 --> 01:03:48,920
Speaker 1: the bottom of straight down and treated about a thousand

1006
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:51,919
Speaker 1: feet up the other side. And we started going down

1007
01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:54,840
Speaker 1: to these dogs, and I had two guys with me,

1008
01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:57,880
Speaker 1: and one of them was really heavy set, and I

1009
01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:01,240
Speaker 1: knew that he was never going to get there. And

1010
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:04,320
Speaker 1: I really wasn't too happy about going there anyways myself.

1011
01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:07,040
Speaker 1: But the dogs were just blowing the top out of

1012
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:10,640
Speaker 1: this tree and across the canyon from where we were

1013
01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:15,280
Speaker 1: standing to where those dogs are actually tree, and we

1014
01:04:15,360 --> 01:04:18,600
Speaker 1: could not have been a thousand feet through the air

1015
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:21,600
Speaker 1: apart from each other. But at the same time, we

1016
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:26,600
Speaker 1: were about a thousand feet in the elevation down and

1017
01:04:26,680 --> 01:04:30,960
Speaker 1: another thousand feet in elevation back up. And uh so

1018
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:34,880
Speaker 1: I asked these guys, I said, done, what's gonna happen

1019
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:38,520
Speaker 1: If we get to the bottom, You're gonna be able

1020
01:04:38,560 --> 01:04:40,720
Speaker 1: to get back to the up to this tough because

1021
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:43,640
Speaker 1: if you can't, there's no sense going down there. And

1022
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:46,640
Speaker 1: they told me, they says, we'll never make it. So

1023
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:51,720
Speaker 1: I started yelling and if iired more rifle a couple

1024
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:55,480
Speaker 1: of times, and it's really surprised me. I remember how

1025
01:04:55,480 --> 01:04:58,120
Speaker 1: many dogs I had, and it probably I usually I

1026
01:04:58,240 --> 01:05:02,680
Speaker 1: usually had about four. I like to during the embars season,

1027
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:06,600
Speaker 1: I like to have no less than three, and usually

1028
01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:08,960
Speaker 1: about four. I'd rotate the dog. You could catch dogs.

1029
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:15,760
Speaker 1: You can catch bears with three, four or five hounds. Yes, yeah, um,

1030
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:19,320
Speaker 1: I'll tell you a little about my philosophy on that,

1031
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:25,080
Speaker 1: and which was the same as a few other guys. Um.

1032
01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:30,280
Speaker 1: But anyways, the dogs came to me, and I was

1033
01:05:30,440 --> 01:05:35,200
Speaker 1: totally shocked that they. Quentin came cost that cannon. But

1034
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:38,720
Speaker 1: as we got out of there, you know, and it

1035
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:44,520
Speaker 1: comes to numbers of dogs, Will's bet off. He's alliant.

1036
01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:47,080
Speaker 1: He was a guy she's winning gout. He was a

1037
01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:51,439
Speaker 1: government hunter, but he also guided people as well, and

1038
01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:57,480
Speaker 1: he he trapped for coyotes. He uses dogs for lions

1039
01:05:57,560 --> 01:06:03,440
Speaker 1: and bears. Stopped killing lions and bears. And he told

1040
01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:06,800
Speaker 1: me early on, he said, if you have three or

1041
01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:10,880
Speaker 1: four dogs that can't catch a bear, you don't need more,

1042
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:16,400
Speaker 1: you need new ones. Yeah. I found that to be true.

1043
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:21,360
Speaker 1: If you got four dogs and they can't catch bears,

1044
01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:27,280
Speaker 1: you better start looking for new dogs or help for

1045
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:29,440
Speaker 1: some of them. You might have a you know, now,

1046
01:06:29,560 --> 01:06:32,560
Speaker 1: when I say three or four dogs, yeah, three or four.

1047
01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:34,200
Speaker 1: If you've got three or four dogs and they can't,

1048
01:06:34,280 --> 01:06:37,360
Speaker 1: you need new ones. I'm talking about three or four

1049
01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:41,680
Speaker 1: dogs where all three or four of them are bear dogs.

1050
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:44,720
Speaker 1: Where you've got one dog. There's a lot of guys

1051
01:06:44,760 --> 01:06:47,960
Speaker 1: got that. They have one dog that's good, and then

1052
01:06:47,960 --> 01:06:49,280
Speaker 1: then the rest of them is just a bunch of

1053
01:06:49,280 --> 01:06:51,720
Speaker 1: dogs are just following, you know, and they catch the

1054
01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:54,640
Speaker 1: easy ones. But whenever they get up to a bad one,

1055
01:06:54,640 --> 01:06:59,360
Speaker 1: pretty soon they get started strung out. And you hear

1056
01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:03,600
Speaker 1: one dog he falling behind, another one's falling behind. And

1057
01:07:03,640 --> 01:07:05,480
Speaker 1: then after a little while you hear this one dog

1058
01:07:05,520 --> 01:07:10,200
Speaker 1: all by himself, and he was, yes, he is, he's

1059
01:07:10,200 --> 01:07:12,960
Speaker 1: the guy doing all the work. Well, that's where you

1060
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:16,680
Speaker 1: need to keep him. And started looking for replacements for

1061
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:20,320
Speaker 1: the other ones. But you don't good bear dogs. You

1062
01:07:20,320 --> 01:07:23,840
Speaker 1: can do the job, you know. Um, And but they

1063
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:26,200
Speaker 1: don't all make good bear dogs, you know. When you're

1064
01:07:26,200 --> 01:07:31,440
Speaker 1: talking about these guys like you said in Tennessee on

1065
01:07:31,480 --> 01:07:37,160
Speaker 1: these gravel roads. Um, there's a there's a method that

1066
01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:41,560
Speaker 1: is very popular today. Saylor was the very first dog

1067
01:07:41,600 --> 01:07:43,760
Speaker 1: that I had that would do this, and that's strike

1068
01:07:43,840 --> 01:07:47,280
Speaker 1: a bear out of the back of a truck. Yeah. Yeah,

1069
01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:51,640
Speaker 1: And and and Saylor would when he started doing that.

1070
01:07:52,960 --> 01:07:56,480
Speaker 1: The hound hunters in this part of the world, they

1071
01:07:56,480 --> 01:07:59,400
Speaker 1: didn't believe it. They they didn't believe that dog could

1072
01:07:59,400 --> 01:08:03,040
Speaker 1: do that. And um, but he did. And and then

1073
01:08:03,080 --> 01:08:06,680
Speaker 1: Bo was doing it as well. Um, but they strike

1074
01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:10,880
Speaker 1: a bear track that the bear hadn't even crossed the road,

1075
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:14,400
Speaker 1: but the track would be maybe five ft away from

1076
01:08:14,440 --> 01:08:17,000
Speaker 1: the road, you know. But they and and they strike

1077
01:08:17,080 --> 01:08:18,760
Speaker 1: the thing and then you let him go and they

1078
01:08:18,760 --> 01:08:25,479
Speaker 1: didn't up catching the bear. Yeah. But prior to those years, um,

1079
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:27,640
Speaker 1: there was a guy up in Washington State by the

1080
01:08:27,720 --> 01:08:31,040
Speaker 1: name of D. Moss. I think his first name was d.

1081
01:08:31,160 --> 01:08:36,599
Speaker 1: He had plots, all plots, and he worked for Zirah

1082
01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:41,040
Speaker 1: called Simpson Timber Company, which Simpson at the in those years,

1083
01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:47,360
Speaker 1: they had professional bear hunters killing bears on Simpson ground.

1084
01:08:47,760 --> 01:08:50,080
Speaker 1: What they were doing and what the bears would do,

1085
01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:54,280
Speaker 1: they would do the Douglas fir trees, they would they

1086
01:08:54,320 --> 01:08:57,880
Speaker 1: would strip the bark off of him to go for

1087
01:08:57,920 --> 01:09:01,799
Speaker 1: the Cambian layer of the all the trees. So Simpson

1088
01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:04,759
Speaker 1: Simpson Timber Company, their solution was kill all the bears.

1089
01:09:05,400 --> 01:09:09,439
Speaker 1: And D. D. Moss was one of those guys. And

1090
01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:12,040
Speaker 1: and I had heard that he had dogs. They would

1091
01:09:12,040 --> 01:09:13,760
Speaker 1: strike a bear off the box, you know, they put

1092
01:09:13,840 --> 01:09:15,840
Speaker 1: them on the box, you know, and drive the roads

1093
01:09:15,840 --> 01:09:21,040
Speaker 1: and they start them like that. And believe me, that's

1094
01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:24,320
Speaker 1: a whole lot simpler than that's taking. That was new

1095
01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:28,200
Speaker 1: technology back in the day. Yeah, Now that's that's like,

1096
01:09:28,439 --> 01:09:30,439
Speaker 1: that's the way most a lot of these guys hunt.

1097
01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:33,200
Speaker 1: I even I've even been told that you guys got

1098
01:09:33,240 --> 01:09:37,000
Speaker 1: dogs will strike lines that way. They'll strike line tracks

1099
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:39,559
Speaker 1: off the truck. You know. Dogs they learn how to

1100
01:09:39,600 --> 01:09:44,880
Speaker 1: do it, and they're good smart dogs, you know, and

1101
01:09:44,880 --> 01:09:47,240
Speaker 1: and they'll they'll pick up on that. They started learning

1102
01:09:47,240 --> 01:09:49,080
Speaker 1: on their own how to do it, you know. But

1103
01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:51,120
Speaker 1: in the back, in the back then, you know, in

1104
01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:56,200
Speaker 1: the earlier years, prior to the sixties, I'd say, prior

1105
01:09:56,240 --> 01:10:00,160
Speaker 1: to the seventies. Actually, um, nobody's had dogs and do

1106
01:10:00,280 --> 01:10:04,320
Speaker 1: that stuff. Um, except for just a few. Yeah, you know,

1107
01:10:04,400 --> 01:10:05,800
Speaker 1: like I said, I had a couple of guys probably

1108
01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:07,639
Speaker 1: weren't giving him much of a chance to do it either,

1109
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:10,720
Speaker 1: were they. They probably weren't giving him much of a

1110
01:10:10,800 --> 01:10:12,639
Speaker 1: chance to do it. I mean, you know, it's like

1111
01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:16,400
Speaker 1: if you if somebody knows that a dog has that capability,

1112
01:10:16,479 --> 01:10:19,519
Speaker 1: he's probably given it opportunity and paying attention to it

1113
01:10:19,560 --> 01:10:21,800
Speaker 1: when it's on the box. And if you never did

1114
01:10:21,840 --> 01:10:24,479
Speaker 1: it before, you just think the dog's barking maybe or right,

1115
01:10:24,600 --> 01:10:27,679
Speaker 1: you know, you just you just didn't know. Yeah, but yeah,

1116
01:10:27,720 --> 01:10:30,320
Speaker 1: I I caught a line one time, just not too

1117
01:10:30,320 --> 01:10:32,000
Speaker 1: far from the alice where we're at right now that

1118
01:10:33,160 --> 01:10:36,400
Speaker 1: um I mentioned it in this book and all right,

1119
01:10:36,520 --> 01:10:40,559
Speaker 1: um it's on Santa Creek fire Road. And I found

1120
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:45,080
Speaker 1: that lions track a couple of days before on the

1121
01:10:45,120 --> 01:10:48,479
Speaker 1: far south end of it was about I think that

1122
01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:53,800
Speaker 1: rose like miles long, and uh, but it's an old track.

1123
01:10:53,880 --> 01:10:58,280
Speaker 1: And I just worked at myself with trying to dogs

1124
01:10:58,280 --> 01:11:03,120
Speaker 1: couldn't smell it, and um, I got about ten miles

1125
01:11:03,120 --> 01:11:05,799
Speaker 1: of it, and then I so you followed the actual

1126
01:11:05,840 --> 01:11:10,200
Speaker 1: tracks of the lion with your and I pointed out

1127
01:11:10,240 --> 01:11:13,160
Speaker 1: to the dogs if they could smell it, they bark,

1128
01:11:13,280 --> 01:11:15,400
Speaker 1: they try and find it, you know, but you know

1129
01:11:15,439 --> 01:11:19,360
Speaker 1: you're taking like some of these dogs. All right, this

1130
01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:23,000
Speaker 1: is I'm being very honest and serious about this. You

1131
01:11:23,040 --> 01:11:27,000
Speaker 1: find a lion track in a dirt road, and the

1132
01:11:27,040 --> 01:11:30,600
Speaker 1: track is was made when the road was wet in

1133
01:11:30,680 --> 01:11:35,200
Speaker 1: the mud, and it's not wet now it's dry and

1134
01:11:35,280 --> 01:11:38,040
Speaker 1: it's hard, and you've got dogs. You can stick the

1135
01:11:38,080 --> 01:11:40,240
Speaker 1: nose down in that thing and smell that lion's track.

1136
01:11:41,040 --> 01:11:45,240
Speaker 1: They're smelling and responding to attract. It is probably four

1137
01:11:45,320 --> 01:11:48,639
Speaker 1: days old, maybe a little older than that. Now they

1138
01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:52,679
Speaker 1: can't trail it much at all. They smell it, they

1139
01:11:52,680 --> 01:11:56,920
Speaker 1: can't traill it, but at least they're identifying it that

1140
01:11:57,040 --> 01:11:59,840
Speaker 1: I know that he was here, and you're looking there

1141
01:11:59,840 --> 01:12:02,160
Speaker 1: and and you see them with they're barking and they're

1142
01:12:02,160 --> 01:12:06,160
Speaker 1: sticking their nose down in the dirt track that was

1143
01:12:06,320 --> 01:12:10,280
Speaker 1: mud that it is now hard solid. So I would

1144
01:12:10,360 --> 01:12:14,120
Speaker 1: take and and try and work the dogs and and

1145
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:18,280
Speaker 1: see if we can get something out of it. You know. Well, anyways,

1146
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:20,519
Speaker 1: I got to the point that I figured it. I

1147
01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:24,640
Speaker 1: got up here to this um telephone ridge, and uh,

1148
01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:27,760
Speaker 1: I thought, you know, I think I'm pretty caught caught

1149
01:12:27,800 --> 01:12:31,719
Speaker 1: up to that line pretty closed, which that's about eight

1150
01:12:31,760 --> 01:12:36,200
Speaker 1: miles I guess from where I first found it. And

1151
01:12:36,400 --> 01:12:39,200
Speaker 1: uh so I got this friend of mine, Joe Bryan,

1152
01:12:40,040 --> 01:12:45,679
Speaker 1: who um he's another fireman that good friend still friends

1153
01:12:46,240 --> 01:12:49,920
Speaker 1: and and uh I mentioned Joe in the book. Joe

1154
01:12:49,960 --> 01:12:53,360
Speaker 1: hund'd an awful. I didn't have dogs, a terrific hand,

1155
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:58,519
Speaker 1: a very good hand anything, horses dogs, it didn't matter.

1156
01:12:59,280 --> 01:13:01,400
Speaker 1: He just tell him to do it, and he would

1157
01:13:01,439 --> 01:13:05,000
Speaker 1: do it, and he would. He's very helpful. And uh

1158
01:13:05,120 --> 01:13:08,080
Speaker 1: I called him over and I said, I think I

1159
01:13:08,160 --> 01:13:11,400
Speaker 1: found this line and he's a on telephone ridge and

1160
01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:14,520
Speaker 1: I said, if you want to go with me, Uh,

1161
01:13:14,600 --> 01:13:15,840
Speaker 1: I'd like to have you go along. I'm want to

1162
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:18,720
Speaker 1: come around from the north side and and drive in

1163
01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:23,360
Speaker 1: to the south and and start looking. And that lion

1164
01:13:23,560 --> 01:13:27,000
Speaker 1: apparently met us ine the road because you're driving down

1165
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:30,439
Speaker 1: the road and the dog just exploded in the back

1166
01:13:30,479 --> 01:13:34,120
Speaker 1: of the truck. And uh, this was before I had

1167
01:13:34,200 --> 01:13:36,960
Speaker 1: dogs who were striking bears and stuff out the back

1168
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:41,800
Speaker 1: of the truck. But they just exploded, and uh, the

1169
01:13:41,920 --> 01:13:44,720
Speaker 1: road was hard. He couldn't see tracks of anything. And

1170
01:13:44,760 --> 01:13:47,519
Speaker 1: I said, well, whatever it was, it's fresh. And I

1171
01:13:47,560 --> 01:13:50,360
Speaker 1: know that these dogs in the back, I know what

1172
01:13:50,400 --> 01:13:52,639
Speaker 1: they what they look for when they what they chase,

1173
01:13:53,280 --> 01:13:56,240
Speaker 1: and if whatever it is, it will climb a tree.

1174
01:13:56,280 --> 01:13:59,760
Speaker 1: So let's find out. And we dumped the dogs out

1175
01:14:00,160 --> 01:14:03,160
Speaker 1: and it wasn't any time at all, and they had

1176
01:14:03,200 --> 01:14:05,200
Speaker 1: that line up a tree. You know, so you had

1177
01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:08,759
Speaker 1: you had trailed him with your eyes for eight miles

1178
01:14:08,880 --> 01:14:11,280
Speaker 1: you had, yes, you knew which direction it was going.

1179
01:14:11,400 --> 01:14:13,120
Speaker 1: You came in from the other way and just caught

1180
01:14:13,200 --> 01:14:16,880
Speaker 1: him red hot. I'd find his track, Yes, I'd find

1181
01:14:16,920 --> 01:14:21,880
Speaker 1: his track where it stepped into the road, and then

1182
01:14:21,880 --> 01:14:23,639
Speaker 1: he then you'd lose the track. He had no idea

1183
01:14:23,720 --> 01:14:26,560
Speaker 1: where it was at, and all you knew is that

1184
01:14:26,640 --> 01:14:28,400
Speaker 1: he either went below the road or above the road.

1185
01:14:30,200 --> 01:14:33,599
Speaker 1: So that from that point i'd take a dog. One dog,

1186
01:14:33,800 --> 01:14:35,760
Speaker 1: just one dog gets gonna be out there with me.

1187
01:14:36,560 --> 01:14:38,479
Speaker 1: And and and at that time it was either said

1188
01:14:38,560 --> 01:14:41,240
Speaker 1: or a bow, and both of them is extremely good

1189
01:14:41,240 --> 01:14:45,920
Speaker 1: at coal trailing. And just walk the road. Don't get

1190
01:14:46,000 --> 01:14:49,200
Speaker 1: him excited or anything. You don't want him casting out

1191
01:14:49,439 --> 01:14:52,439
Speaker 1: going long ways from you. But start walking the road

1192
01:14:52,479 --> 01:14:57,680
Speaker 1: and just looking, and you see the dog over there

1193
01:14:57,680 --> 01:15:01,080
Speaker 1: and smelling of a twig, and his dale starts wagging

1194
01:15:01,120 --> 01:15:03,840
Speaker 1: and he's checking it out more, and pretty soon he's

1195
01:15:03,880 --> 01:15:08,559
Speaker 1: running his nose out about a foot or a little

1196
01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:12,240
Speaker 1: more on a twig, smelling to see what he's He's

1197
01:15:12,280 --> 01:15:14,960
Speaker 1: not too sure what he's smelling. Pretty soon they throw

1198
01:15:15,040 --> 01:15:16,519
Speaker 1: their head in the air and they let out a ball,

1199
01:15:17,320 --> 01:15:19,679
Speaker 1: and you know you're you're going the right direction anyways,

1200
01:15:19,760 --> 01:15:22,439
Speaker 1: you know. So from that point you just keep going.

1201
01:15:23,520 --> 01:15:26,880
Speaker 1: And like I said, I was able to do that.

1202
01:15:26,920 --> 01:15:30,120
Speaker 1: This line was I was lucky. The lion was at

1203
01:15:30,200 --> 01:15:33,240
Speaker 1: five thousand foot elevation. That roads at five thousand foot

1204
01:15:33,280 --> 01:15:38,960
Speaker 1: all the way, and it was just traveling heading north

1205
01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:42,519
Speaker 1: at that same elevation and that road just happened to

1206
01:15:42,520 --> 01:15:46,400
Speaker 1: be there, and so anyways we ended up catching the thing.

1207
01:15:49,680 --> 01:15:51,720
Speaker 1: Is there any part of the book that you'd like

1208
01:15:51,920 --> 01:15:55,160
Speaker 1: to tell people about? I mean, is there is there

1209
01:15:55,320 --> 01:15:58,120
Speaker 1: was your favorite part of the book for you? That

1210
01:15:58,760 --> 01:16:02,160
Speaker 1: just a story? As we kind of start to wind

1211
01:16:02,240 --> 01:16:05,720
Speaker 1: down here a little bit, well, all the stories that

1212
01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:07,879
Speaker 1: I put in there having to be kind of favorites,

1213
01:16:07,960 --> 01:16:10,760
Speaker 1: you know, and I guess the thing for him to

1214
01:16:10,800 --> 01:16:12,840
Speaker 1: do is get a coffee of the book and read

1215
01:16:12,880 --> 01:16:15,320
Speaker 1: the thing you know that will tell But you know,

1216
01:16:15,400 --> 01:16:19,799
Speaker 1: there there is something that I'd like to say that, Um,

1217
01:16:19,840 --> 01:16:24,599
Speaker 1: I haven't hundred hounds since well, I hundred with Jim

1218
01:16:24,640 --> 01:16:29,720
Speaker 1: Bridges one um one time up in Susanville that we

1219
01:16:29,800 --> 01:16:32,840
Speaker 1: called a baron let it go, of course, and but

1220
01:16:32,920 --> 01:16:36,560
Speaker 1: I didn't. I haven't had hounds since the late nighties.

1221
01:16:37,880 --> 01:16:42,320
Speaker 1: And um, I kind of burned myself out between myself

1222
01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:49,080
Speaker 1: and my dealings with politics, and politics went all the

1223
01:16:49,080 --> 01:16:57,320
Speaker 1: way down into fishing game departments, very political and in

1224
01:16:57,400 --> 01:17:00,760
Speaker 1: some cases you find yourself on the outside of the

1225
01:17:00,800 --> 01:17:06,719
Speaker 1: good old boys club and which is something that unless

1226
01:17:06,760 --> 01:17:09,920
Speaker 1: you're in it, you don't like it. And I want

1227
01:17:09,960 --> 01:17:14,160
Speaker 1: to know part of being in it. Um. I got

1228
01:17:14,200 --> 01:17:19,280
Speaker 1: involved in the Montana fishing game of tagging mountain lions,

1229
01:17:20,680 --> 01:17:23,519
Speaker 1: and myself and a fishing game bologist up there named

1230
01:17:23,600 --> 01:17:31,599
Speaker 1: Jerry Brown, we got together and Jerry made the proposal

1231
01:17:31,680 --> 01:17:36,080
Speaker 1: to the Fishing Game department to start um tagging lions

1232
01:17:36,120 --> 01:17:40,160
Speaker 1: for research. And I was all for that, and I

1233
01:17:40,240 --> 01:17:47,840
Speaker 1: quit guiding to do that, and I learned a bad

1234
01:17:47,920 --> 01:17:55,679
Speaker 1: side of politics. Mm hmm, some bad stuff goes on there. Um.

1235
01:17:55,840 --> 01:17:59,880
Speaker 1: You know when you've got to Jerry Brown is a

1236
01:18:00,000 --> 01:18:03,240
Speaker 1: silo is he's a good guy here, really a good guy.

1237
01:18:05,200 --> 01:18:10,040
Speaker 1: But when you've got a biologists in charge of the

1238
01:18:10,040 --> 01:18:14,439
Speaker 1: the special of what they call specialty animals the state

1239
01:18:14,439 --> 01:18:22,320
Speaker 1: of Montana, which were grizzlies, moves, big orange sheep and

1240
01:18:22,880 --> 01:18:25,080
Speaker 1: eventually the mountain line, I guess they've got in there

1241
01:18:26,360 --> 01:18:33,040
Speaker 1: when uh, you're conducting a study for them and you

1242
01:18:33,080 --> 01:18:39,680
Speaker 1: asked them what are you doing with this information? And

1243
01:18:39,720 --> 01:18:44,320
Speaker 1: they tell you nothing? And then they asked you, why

1244
01:18:44,400 --> 01:18:46,200
Speaker 1: is it that you're not tagging more lions? And you

1245
01:18:46,240 --> 01:18:49,760
Speaker 1: tell them, well, we're using tranquial lives which in the

1246
01:18:49,800 --> 01:18:52,639
Speaker 1: beginning days I didn't. I caught a number of lines

1247
01:18:52,680 --> 01:18:56,240
Speaker 1: without tranquilizers, but that was clear back in the sixties

1248
01:18:56,840 --> 01:19:04,120
Speaker 1: in California. When they tell you go ahead and start

1249
01:19:04,200 --> 01:19:06,280
Speaker 1: the thing anyway, I said, well, the line is up

1250
01:19:06,320 --> 01:19:09,080
Speaker 1: in this country. The most of them retreat pretty high,

1251
01:19:09,920 --> 01:19:12,200
Speaker 1: and uh I don't want to door the line to

1252
01:19:12,280 --> 01:19:16,680
Speaker 1: watch him fall sixt to his death. They say, you

1253
01:19:16,680 --> 01:19:20,080
Speaker 1: go ahead and do it anyways, and I asked the question.

1254
01:19:20,080 --> 01:19:22,120
Speaker 1: I said, what do we do? What we tagged that one?

1255
01:19:24,680 --> 01:19:27,880
Speaker 1: And they say, well, what this is really all about

1256
01:19:27,960 --> 01:19:33,400
Speaker 1: is too full the general public into believing that them

1257
01:19:33,479 --> 01:19:37,080
Speaker 1: is a ficient game department. Are doing a lot of

1258
01:19:37,120 --> 01:19:42,879
Speaker 1: things for the good of the animals. Put down deep inside,

1259
01:19:42,920 --> 01:19:44,960
Speaker 1: all they're doing is trying to fool the general public.

1260
01:19:45,720 --> 01:19:49,520
Speaker 1: M I heard that out of this state of California,

1261
01:19:51,320 --> 01:19:53,000
Speaker 1: and I heard that in the state of Montana, and

1262
01:19:53,080 --> 01:19:55,840
Speaker 1: I quit him when they when I was told that,

1263
01:19:55,920 --> 01:19:59,639
Speaker 1: I said, I'm done, yeah, and uh so I gave

1264
01:19:59,680 --> 01:20:06,040
Speaker 1: it up. But Jerry brown Um and I started that

1265
01:20:06,520 --> 01:20:10,559
Speaker 1: Mountain lion tagging program in that state. It was like

1266
01:20:13,200 --> 01:20:16,840
Speaker 1: five I think, is what it was. Does this day

1267
01:20:16,920 --> 01:20:22,240
Speaker 1: you can't even find that study. I've I've looked on

1268
01:20:22,360 --> 01:20:25,920
Speaker 1: the internet to find out if there's anything any record

1269
01:20:27,200 --> 01:20:32,320
Speaker 1: of that particular study of lions, and I find nothing mhm.

1270
01:20:32,920 --> 01:20:36,680
Speaker 1: But what I can find is where they took my

1271
01:20:36,840 --> 01:20:42,439
Speaker 1: information and published it along with the map showing every

1272
01:20:42,439 --> 01:20:47,360
Speaker 1: place that I was catching lions and releasing lions. And

1273
01:20:47,400 --> 01:20:52,240
Speaker 1: when they did that the following year, it was standing

1274
01:20:52,320 --> 01:20:55,080
Speaker 1: room only in the area that I was hunting. They

1275
01:20:55,120 --> 01:20:59,120
Speaker 1: came as far away as Florida, dount lions in an

1276
01:20:59,120 --> 01:21:00,960
Speaker 1: area that I was i to do a study in.

1277
01:21:02,439 --> 01:21:04,120
Speaker 1: So this is what I gotta say about to the

1278
01:21:04,160 --> 01:21:08,479
Speaker 1: guys with the hound dogs. Be careful who you vote for. Yeah,

1279
01:21:08,880 --> 01:21:15,240
Speaker 1: be careful what you say. Your videos are beautiful, don't

1280
01:21:15,320 --> 01:21:18,479
Speaker 1: put them on the internet. They're using them against you.

1281
01:21:19,320 --> 01:21:23,439
Speaker 1: What happened in California also happened in Oregon. Then it

1282
01:21:23,560 --> 01:21:27,600
Speaker 1: happened in Washington State, also the Panhandle of Idoh. You

1283
01:21:27,640 --> 01:21:30,640
Speaker 1: can't chase bears with with hound dogs in the Panhandle

1284
01:21:30,640 --> 01:21:35,360
Speaker 1: of Ido either. The day's coming. If you're not careful,

1285
01:21:36,200 --> 01:21:39,760
Speaker 1: they're gonna take your hunting privileges away from you, your

1286
01:21:39,760 --> 01:21:44,040
Speaker 1: hound dogs, just just like here, Just like they did here.

1287
01:21:44,200 --> 01:21:48,320
Speaker 1: All you'll have his pets. That's all you'll have. And

1288
01:21:48,600 --> 01:21:57,719
Speaker 1: uh so what do we need to do? First off,

1289
01:21:58,120 --> 01:22:01,200
Speaker 1: careful who you vote for. Make sure you know who

1290
01:22:01,240 --> 01:22:09,600
Speaker 1: you're voting for. Yeah, Like I say, the these videos,

1291
01:22:11,200 --> 01:22:13,400
Speaker 1: I can certainly understand. You know, back when I was

1292
01:22:13,439 --> 01:22:17,519
Speaker 1: doing this, we didn't have videos. If you had anything

1293
01:22:17,520 --> 01:22:20,439
Speaker 1: of moving, you had to have a movie camera and

1294
01:22:20,439 --> 01:22:23,599
Speaker 1: and you weren't taking that hunting and what you weren't

1295
01:22:23,600 --> 01:22:25,760
Speaker 1: going to take that hunting. No, you had to have

1296
01:22:25,800 --> 01:22:28,920
Speaker 1: a movie camera with you and and and in order

1297
01:22:28,960 --> 01:22:31,519
Speaker 1: to do that, you also had to have the knowledge

1298
01:22:31,560 --> 01:22:34,920
Speaker 1: of how to use that thing, otherwise you got nothing

1299
01:22:34,960 --> 01:22:39,920
Speaker 1: out of him. You know, today we've got uh handheld

1300
01:22:40,560 --> 01:22:47,639
Speaker 1: telephones that give you just beautiful videos. Yes, go ahead

1301
01:22:47,680 --> 01:22:50,880
Speaker 1: and get your videos. Just keep it to yourself. You

1302
01:22:50,960 --> 01:22:55,960
Speaker 1: put that thing on the internet. These protectionists are seeing

1303
01:22:56,000 --> 01:22:58,800
Speaker 1: that and they're going to use that against you, just

1304
01:22:58,840 --> 01:23:06,280
Speaker 1: like they did here. Yeah. Um, I feel sorry for

1305
01:23:06,360 --> 01:23:10,479
Speaker 1: the guys that I love this sport so much, and

1306
01:23:10,560 --> 01:23:15,920
Speaker 1: yet at the same time they've got shackles on them.

1307
01:23:15,960 --> 01:23:18,040
Speaker 1: They got a short lease put on these guys for

1308
01:23:18,080 --> 01:23:22,559
Speaker 1: those hound dogs. And it's a wonderful sport, it truly is.

1309
01:23:22,640 --> 01:23:27,600
Speaker 1: I just like say, I I cherished my memories, but

1310
01:23:27,720 --> 01:23:32,519
Speaker 1: I got spoiled. I was spoiled, I truly was. I

1311
01:23:32,560 --> 01:23:35,040
Speaker 1: got to see the best of it. You know, when

1312
01:23:35,080 --> 01:23:41,360
Speaker 1: I started, Mountain Lion was a bountied animal. Podcasts were

1313
01:23:41,560 --> 01:23:46,760
Speaker 1: non protected. Some places the bears are non protected. You

1314
01:23:46,800 --> 01:23:48,559
Speaker 1: could just catch as many as you want, do whatever

1315
01:23:48,600 --> 01:23:53,920
Speaker 1: you want or with them. And today you're lucky if

1316
01:23:53,920 --> 01:23:57,600
Speaker 1: you don't. Some places you've got to get in a

1317
01:23:57,720 --> 01:24:00,519
Speaker 1: drawing just to be able to to go hunt them. Yeah,

1318
01:24:00,560 --> 01:24:03,559
Speaker 1: you know, well we it really is a it's a

1319
01:24:03,600 --> 01:24:09,400
Speaker 1: wildlife management tragedy. It's a cultural tragedy really that they've

1320
01:24:09,640 --> 01:24:12,720
Speaker 1: what they've done in California with hounds. And I think

1321
01:24:12,760 --> 01:24:16,479
Speaker 1: it's important that we're here and that we're talking about this,

1322
01:24:16,800 --> 01:24:18,960
Speaker 1: and that you've written a book about all these things

1323
01:24:19,000 --> 01:24:22,720
Speaker 1: that people can no longer do. And I think I

1324
01:24:22,760 --> 01:24:26,800
Speaker 1: think people are so well. Human nature is shortsighted. Human

1325
01:24:26,880 --> 01:24:32,000
Speaker 1: nature thinks about today and tomorrow and not further ahead oftentimes,

1326
01:24:32,040 --> 01:24:36,599
Speaker 1: and and and currently, I think there's somewhere around seventeen

1327
01:24:36,640 --> 01:24:39,600
Speaker 1: states where you can run big game with hounds in

1328
01:24:39,600 --> 01:24:43,000
Speaker 1: the United States. I believe I believe there's seventeen somewhere

1329
01:24:43,000 --> 01:24:46,840
Speaker 1: in that range. And whether these guys know it or not,

1330
01:24:47,479 --> 01:24:52,240
Speaker 1: their rights are currently being plotted against as we speak.

1331
01:24:53,840 --> 01:24:57,600
Speaker 1: And and so even in places where it's not as threatened,

1332
01:24:58,400 --> 01:25:01,720
Speaker 1: it is absolutely written by the current culture of this

1333
01:25:02,320 --> 01:25:05,719
Speaker 1: of the world of the in specifically this country. And

1334
01:25:06,080 --> 01:25:09,360
Speaker 1: you know what I say to people, ed, is that

1335
01:25:10,160 --> 01:25:11,960
Speaker 1: we have to get a whole lot smarter. We wrote

1336
01:25:11,960 --> 01:25:13,960
Speaker 1: an article in Barony magazine the other day about not

1337
01:25:14,080 --> 01:25:18,160
Speaker 1: posting bay up videos of hounds and social media and

1338
01:25:18,160 --> 01:25:21,120
Speaker 1: all this. I'm in a percent agree with you. The

1339
01:25:21,200 --> 01:25:24,120
Speaker 1: one thing that I know that I can do as

1340
01:25:24,160 --> 01:25:28,680
Speaker 1: a houndsman is clean up my own act. If I

1341
01:25:28,720 --> 01:25:30,800
Speaker 1: could say it that way, I mean some of the

1342
01:25:30,920 --> 01:25:34,200
Speaker 1: bad apples inside the hound hunting community that have given

1343
01:25:34,240 --> 01:25:37,000
Speaker 1: people a bad name by being poachers or by being

1344
01:25:37,080 --> 01:25:39,880
Speaker 1: this or that. And there's there's gonna be there's gonna

1345
01:25:39,920 --> 01:25:43,400
Speaker 1: be bad characters in any sport, any sport. There's bad

1346
01:25:43,479 --> 01:25:48,360
Speaker 1: characters in tennis. Uh. But but I think about if

1347
01:25:48,400 --> 01:25:52,960
Speaker 1: we're being if we're being scrutinized, then Clay Nukeom better

1348
01:25:53,000 --> 01:25:56,280
Speaker 1: be on his best behavior all the time. I mean,

1349
01:25:56,320 --> 01:25:58,799
Speaker 1: we're being scrutinizing on the way we care for our dogs,

1350
01:25:58,840 --> 01:26:02,479
Speaker 1: were being scrutinized on, you know, everything, So it's like, man,

1351
01:26:02,520 --> 01:26:05,000
Speaker 1: I want to make sure that I'm doing everything right.

1352
01:26:05,400 --> 01:26:06,880
Speaker 1: And then part of what we're trying to do at

1353
01:26:06,920 --> 01:26:11,519
Speaker 1: Barony Magazine is that if I believe that, if if

1354
01:26:11,600 --> 01:26:15,720
Speaker 1: we don't create the narrative and tell our narrative, then

1355
01:26:15,760 --> 01:26:18,280
Speaker 1: the bad guys are going to tell the narrative for us.

1356
01:26:18,600 --> 01:26:19,920
Speaker 1: And that's part of the reason I wanted to come

1357
01:26:19,960 --> 01:26:23,320
Speaker 1: talk to you is to is to uh. I mean,

1358
01:26:23,360 --> 01:26:26,919
Speaker 1: hound hunting is an incredible sport. It's an incredible heritage

1359
01:26:26,960 --> 01:26:30,120
Speaker 1: that we have in this country. I mean, jeez, are

1360
01:26:30,240 --> 01:26:33,400
Speaker 1: hunting culture was founded on hounds. I mean George Washington

1361
01:26:33,400 --> 01:26:37,040
Speaker 1: had hounds, Teddy Roosevelt loved hound hunting. I mean, we

1362
01:26:37,080 --> 01:26:43,439
Speaker 1: have this rich, rich history. And if our generation, my

1363
01:26:43,560 --> 01:26:46,639
Speaker 1: generation doesn't do something different and get a whole lot smarter,

1364
01:26:46,800 --> 01:26:50,720
Speaker 1: a whole lot wiser, a whole lot more savvy when

1365
01:26:50,760 --> 01:26:53,920
Speaker 1: it comes to how we handle social media and Internet

1366
01:26:53,960 --> 01:26:57,160
Speaker 1: and all this different stuff, we will lose it. And

1367
01:26:57,200 --> 01:27:00,160
Speaker 1: that's what then, and what we're saying is, hey, let's

1368
01:27:00,320 --> 01:27:03,920
Speaker 1: let's be smart, let's let's not lose it, and let's

1369
01:27:03,920 --> 01:27:08,759
Speaker 1: tell our narrative, scientific base. This is conservation base. Bears

1370
01:27:08,800 --> 01:27:12,160
Speaker 1: are thriving in North America. Mountain lions where there's good

1371
01:27:12,160 --> 01:27:17,720
Speaker 1: habitat are thriving. Hounds are management tool that that we

1372
01:27:17,840 --> 01:27:21,120
Speaker 1: used to manage these animals. And it's a beautiful and

1373
01:27:21,160 --> 01:27:24,280
Speaker 1: amazing thing, really is, you know, I want to I

1374
01:27:24,320 --> 01:27:27,120
Speaker 1: want to add something here that what we're talking about. Yeah,

1375
01:27:27,160 --> 01:27:30,439
Speaker 1: we've had outlaw hunters is what we kind of dubbed him,

1376
01:27:30,479 --> 01:27:35,400
Speaker 1: you know, and I'd have to say that it's not

1377
01:27:35,479 --> 01:27:43,080
Speaker 1: all their fault. Um. In the twenty five plus years

1378
01:27:43,080 --> 01:27:47,040
Speaker 1: that I did this, I did this. This wasn't a

1379
01:27:47,120 --> 01:27:52,440
Speaker 1: hobby to me. I was in the woods um um

1380
01:27:52,479 --> 01:27:54,920
Speaker 1: a dozen years there. I made my living from that.

1381
01:27:55,000 --> 01:27:58,560
Speaker 1: If I had two nicolas to rub together, it was

1382
01:27:58,600 --> 01:28:01,800
Speaker 1: because somebody gave me that for taking a hunting. And

1383
01:28:01,840 --> 01:28:03,360
Speaker 1: if they gave it to me for taking a hunt,

1384
01:28:03,400 --> 01:28:05,240
Speaker 1: and it's because they got the animal that they were

1385
01:28:05,800 --> 01:28:08,280
Speaker 1: hunting for or they didn't give me the two nickels.

1386
01:28:08,320 --> 01:28:19,600
Speaker 1: You know. But over all those years I hunted California, Nevada, Utah,

1387
01:28:20,280 --> 01:28:27,800
Speaker 1: Idaho in Montana, and and all that time, which is

1388
01:28:28,360 --> 01:28:33,280
Speaker 1: like thousands and thousands of days, I think I only

1389
01:28:33,320 --> 01:28:39,519
Speaker 1: saw three three game wardens three different times. Now, the

1390
01:28:39,600 --> 01:28:42,040
Speaker 1: woods were left wide open for the outlaw hunter to

1391
01:28:42,080 --> 01:28:45,519
Speaker 1: do anything he felt like, and he did. He did

1392
01:28:45,560 --> 01:28:47,200
Speaker 1: do anything he felt like. He didn't have anything to

1393
01:28:47,240 --> 01:28:52,040
Speaker 1: worry about. Nobody's gonna nobody's gonna catch him. Big predators

1394
01:28:52,040 --> 01:28:55,360
Speaker 1: were just not on the Do you think do you

1395
01:28:55,360 --> 01:28:57,680
Speaker 1: think it's different now? I had, I mean, because I

1396
01:28:58,040 --> 01:29:00,320
Speaker 1: would think that it would be different. I have no

1397
01:29:00,439 --> 01:29:02,639
Speaker 1: idea what they're doing. They kind of turned a blind

1398
01:29:02,680 --> 01:29:04,720
Speaker 1: eye to it. That's what you're saying. They just didn't care.

1399
01:29:04,800 --> 01:29:08,360
Speaker 1: They didn't care. Yeah, but eventually that there's some people

1400
01:29:08,400 --> 01:29:12,280
Speaker 1: came along. They did care, and they had money, and

1401
01:29:12,320 --> 01:29:15,000
Speaker 1: they had a lot of spare time too, and they

1402
01:29:15,000 --> 01:29:18,599
Speaker 1: really don't like doing what we were doing. They didn't

1403
01:29:18,600 --> 01:29:22,360
Speaker 1: like that idea. You know, the same people though, the

1404
01:29:22,439 --> 01:29:26,040
Speaker 1: anti hunting community. Yes, right, but yet these people also

1405
01:29:26,080 --> 01:29:29,760
Speaker 1: have the ability, through through money, to take and by

1406
01:29:29,920 --> 01:29:35,080
Speaker 1: legislators to introduce bills to stop a guy with his

1407
01:29:35,240 --> 01:29:39,400
Speaker 1: hound dogs. Well, it's been a pleasure to talk with you,

1408
01:29:39,479 --> 01:29:43,040
Speaker 1: and and people can people can find this once you

1409
01:29:43,040 --> 01:29:47,080
Speaker 1: tell us where people can find your book. Okay, um,

1410
01:29:47,439 --> 01:29:51,439
Speaker 1: it's I have a website and it's by the titles

1411
01:29:51,439 --> 01:29:54,400
Speaker 1: of the book. You go www. Trained by hound Dog

1412
01:29:54,439 --> 01:29:58,000
Speaker 1: dot Com. You can purchase the book there or you

1413
01:29:58,040 --> 01:30:01,240
Speaker 1: can go to Amazon, and you can purchase it on

1414
01:30:01,320 --> 01:30:04,840
Speaker 1: Amazon as well. It makes no difference where you purchase it.

1415
01:30:04,920 --> 01:30:08,559
Speaker 1: Amazon will cost you more money. And I mail every

1416
01:30:08,560 --> 01:30:11,000
Speaker 1: one of them, so it doesn't matter. They all come

1417
01:30:11,040 --> 01:30:14,559
Speaker 1: out of this house right here, and uh so that's

1418
01:30:14,560 --> 01:30:16,799
Speaker 1: the place that she can go and it'll it'll enlighten

1419
01:30:17,880 --> 01:30:21,200
Speaker 1: some of you too. Other things we've not talked about,

1420
01:30:22,200 --> 01:30:27,960
Speaker 1: and I'd sure like to see um a lot of

1421
01:30:28,000 --> 01:30:31,559
Speaker 1: these protection is stopped. I really do. I I have

1422
01:30:31,640 --> 01:30:34,599
Speaker 1: no interest in going on any myself, but I never

1423
01:30:34,640 --> 01:30:38,080
Speaker 1: forgot how good it is to do it. So they

1424
01:30:38,080 --> 01:30:41,200
Speaker 1: can go to Trained by a Hounddog dot Com. And

1425
01:30:41,240 --> 01:30:44,280
Speaker 1: this is a two hundred and something page book. How

1426
01:30:44,280 --> 01:30:49,760
Speaker 1: many it's about two eight seventy some photos, beautiful photos.

1427
01:30:50,080 --> 01:30:54,120
Speaker 1: And I just want to say that I was really

1428
01:30:54,120 --> 01:30:56,960
Speaker 1: impressed with this book. Obviously I wouldn't be here if

1429
01:30:57,000 --> 01:31:01,360
Speaker 1: I if I was not, but thoroughly enjoyed the writing style,

1430
01:31:02,080 --> 01:31:05,439
Speaker 1: the storytelling aspect of it. I felt like it had

1431
01:31:05,560 --> 01:31:09,599
Speaker 1: just the right amount of of of of human story

1432
01:31:10,200 --> 01:31:14,520
Speaker 1: but also hound dog story and hunting story and excitement,

1433
01:31:14,680 --> 01:31:17,360
Speaker 1: but also kind of this you really got a sense

1434
01:31:17,479 --> 01:31:20,200
Speaker 1: of of you as a young man, just kind of

1435
01:31:20,240 --> 01:31:23,720
Speaker 1: given all that you had to this dream that you

1436
01:31:23,800 --> 01:31:26,280
Speaker 1: had to to live the kind of lifestyle that you

1437
01:31:26,320 --> 01:31:29,200
Speaker 1: wanted to live with your hounds. And uh, and I

1438
01:31:29,240 --> 01:31:34,840
Speaker 1: admired your diligence and just you're starting from zero and

1439
01:31:34,960 --> 01:31:39,519
Speaker 1: becoming really a master houndsman over those years. And uh,

1440
01:31:39,600 --> 01:31:42,160
Speaker 1: and boy, there's so much I wanted to talk about,

1441
01:31:42,840 --> 01:31:46,280
Speaker 1: you know, I wanted to talk about some of the

1442
01:31:46,280 --> 01:31:50,799
Speaker 1: the physical endurance things that you did chasing these dogs

1443
01:31:50,800 --> 01:31:54,840
Speaker 1: and staying out way after dark and uh, you know,

1444
01:31:55,000 --> 01:31:58,639
Speaker 1: coming in after fifteen twenty miles a day on foot

1445
01:31:58,680 --> 01:32:01,920
Speaker 1: and coming in hours after or dark and cold. I mean,

1446
01:32:01,960 --> 01:32:04,120
Speaker 1: just some of the stuff that you did physically I

1447
01:32:04,160 --> 01:32:07,240
Speaker 1: felt like was just incredible And not a lot of

1448
01:32:07,280 --> 01:32:10,160
Speaker 1: people are are doing that kind of stuff these days.

1449
01:32:10,200 --> 01:32:12,960
Speaker 1: But no, I just well, and like I said at

1450
01:32:12,960 --> 01:32:16,080
Speaker 1: the beginning, that your your voice inside the book is

1451
01:32:16,160 --> 01:32:19,360
Speaker 1: strong and and it's clear to just for me to

1452
01:32:20,120 --> 01:32:23,200
Speaker 1: perceive that you're a man of integrity, and and uh,

1453
01:32:24,360 --> 01:32:27,760
Speaker 1: just I I really thoroughly enjoyed the book, so I

1454
01:32:27,880 --> 01:32:31,400
Speaker 1: i'd really encourage everybody to get it supported and then

1455
01:32:31,560 --> 01:32:34,000
Speaker 1: in this book and you'll enjoy it for sure. It's

1456
01:32:34,040 --> 01:32:36,280
Speaker 1: a it's a great book. And uh, thank you so

1457
01:32:36,360 --> 01:32:38,519
Speaker 1: much for having us up today. Oh hey, I'm glad

1458
01:32:38,560 --> 01:32:41,280
Speaker 1: that you're here. You got a wonderful family. I'll tell

1459
01:32:41,320 --> 01:32:44,000
Speaker 1: you that, thank you. This is really good. Thank you.

1460
01:32:44,040 --> 01:32:47,640
Speaker 1: I welcome to the opportunity to do this. And I

1461
01:32:47,680 --> 01:32:50,880
Speaker 1: will tell you this that don on that book, I've

1462
01:32:51,200 --> 01:32:53,120
Speaker 1: did the best I could to make it to where

1463
01:32:53,120 --> 01:32:57,280
Speaker 1: it didn't it sounds like a how great I am

1464
01:32:57,400 --> 01:32:59,800
Speaker 1: type of a book, and no bragging or anything like that.

1465
01:33:00,520 --> 01:33:04,120
Speaker 1: I brought a lot of other individuals into to the book,

1466
01:33:05,280 --> 01:33:09,080
Speaker 1: people from past that I never knew, but I knew

1467
01:33:09,080 --> 01:33:11,560
Speaker 1: about him and I I knew the true side of

1468
01:33:11,680 --> 01:33:15,080
Speaker 1: the to them. I know that not everything that gets

1469
01:33:15,080 --> 01:33:18,639
Speaker 1: written down is honest. I can tell you this from

1470
01:33:18,640 --> 01:33:23,000
Speaker 1: my point. Every single word that's in there is true. UM,

1471
01:33:23,479 --> 01:33:28,240
Speaker 1: no exaggerations, and UM, I think you'll find it interesting.

1472
01:33:29,680 --> 01:33:34,479
Speaker 1: There's some other hound men that you never knew. I

1473
01:33:34,600 --> 01:33:38,280
Speaker 1: never heard about that. UM, the way that they did things,

1474
01:33:38,920 --> 01:33:43,880
Speaker 1: the dogs they had, UM, I never I never was

1475
01:33:43,960 --> 01:33:47,040
Speaker 1: color blind. I'll tell you that I I had a

1476
01:33:48,720 --> 01:33:50,560
Speaker 1: saying that I would tell people when they'd asked me

1477
01:33:50,600 --> 01:33:54,840
Speaker 1: about different breeds of dogs, and I'd almost always tell

1478
01:33:54,880 --> 01:33:58,360
Speaker 1: them that I never saw a good dog that was

1479
01:33:58,400 --> 01:34:02,360
Speaker 1: the wrong color, and uh and I really meant that.

1480
01:34:02,800 --> 01:34:05,439
Speaker 1: And then I mentioned other brought other guys into the book.

1481
01:34:06,400 --> 01:34:11,320
Speaker 1: Charlie Tant he lived like Ben Lilly and got some

1482
01:34:11,360 --> 01:34:16,519
Speaker 1: photos of Charlie. I mentioned um Howard Built, and he

1483
01:34:16,560 --> 01:34:19,800
Speaker 1: was a California state line hunner. I never could find

1484
01:34:19,840 --> 01:34:23,280
Speaker 1: anything that was ever written about Howard Builting is a

1485
01:34:23,320 --> 01:34:26,640
Speaker 1: lion hunter. But Howard Building had to be good. I

1486
01:34:26,680 --> 01:34:28,720
Speaker 1: could go by his record, and I could tell that

1487
01:34:28,760 --> 01:34:31,479
Speaker 1: he caught too many lines to be anything less than good.

1488
01:34:32,240 --> 01:34:36,080
Speaker 1: And uh uh. But anyways, I entered out a lot

1489
01:34:36,120 --> 01:34:41,960
Speaker 1: of that killed six hundred something lines of California. Well, no,

1490
01:34:42,240 --> 01:34:46,439
Speaker 1: J Bruce, Um, he had recorded kills of six hundred

1491
01:34:46,520 --> 01:34:51,160
Speaker 1: and six hundred sixties something. Those are not bragging stories,

1492
01:34:51,160 --> 01:34:54,040
Speaker 1: those are stories that were documented. It took a set

1493
01:34:54,040 --> 01:34:56,559
Speaker 1: of ears off of a lion to before I went

1494
01:34:56,560 --> 01:34:59,559
Speaker 1: down on a piece of paper. But J. Bruce was

1495
01:34:59,600 --> 01:35:01,880
Speaker 1: one of the he was the very first aid line hunter.

1496
01:35:02,960 --> 01:35:06,439
Speaker 1: But Charlie lived like a bad person. I mean he

1497
01:35:06,479 --> 01:35:09,280
Speaker 1: didn't have a house. He just lived out there wherever

1498
01:35:09,280 --> 01:35:11,600
Speaker 1: you wherever he stopped, that's where he lived. But he

1499
01:35:11,720 --> 01:35:13,880
Speaker 1: still called lots of lions and he did it while

1500
01:35:13,960 --> 01:35:18,720
Speaker 1: walking to do a No no GPS, no four wheel drives,

1501
01:35:18,720 --> 01:35:21,759
Speaker 1: no horses, none of that. He just won't. And well,

1502
01:35:22,080 --> 01:35:26,040
Speaker 1: but so I put that in the book and because

1503
01:35:26,040 --> 01:35:30,640
Speaker 1: I think it needed to be in there. And yeah, hopefully, um,

1504
01:35:31,800 --> 01:35:34,760
Speaker 1: if you ever get the book, you'll read it. If

1505
01:35:34,760 --> 01:35:36,040
Speaker 1: you do, I'd like to hear it from me and

1506
01:35:36,040 --> 01:35:38,559
Speaker 1: see what you think about it. Yeah. Yeah, so if

1507
01:35:38,560 --> 01:35:41,160
Speaker 1: you get a book, send uh, send it an email

1508
01:35:41,280 --> 01:35:45,839
Speaker 1: and give him a review on Amazon. But uh, well, again,

1509
01:35:46,720 --> 01:35:48,960
Speaker 1: my pleasure to be here, ed, thank you so much

1510
01:35:48,960 --> 01:35:51,240
Speaker 1: for having us, and uh we have it. We have

1511
01:35:51,320 --> 01:35:54,280
Speaker 1: a saying at the end of every podcast that we say,

1512
01:35:54,920 --> 01:35:57,360
Speaker 1: all right, all right, I'll say it, but I'm gonna

1513
01:35:57,439 --> 01:35:59,760
Speaker 1: slightly amend it for this one because we're talking about

1514
01:35:59,760 --> 01:36:02,840
Speaker 1: a lot ends. But keep the wild places wild because

1515
01:36:02,840 --> 01:36:08,120
Speaker 1: that's where the lines live better. Okay, all right, all right,