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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to blow your mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And it's not Saturday,

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Speaker 1: but we are going into the vault to cover a

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Speaker 1: little bit of time off. Rob and I are airing

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Speaker 1: a classic episode of the show. This one originally published

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Speaker 1: on October seventeen, nineteen, and it's the episode about the

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Speaker 1: Garasene demoniac. That's right, this is the whole my name

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Speaker 1: is Legion thing. Uh, you know, Jesus casting out demons

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Speaker 1: and whatnot. But you know, we we get into not

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Speaker 1: only the story itself, but what does this mean and uh,

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Speaker 1: how is it used to enforce our relationship with animals?

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Speaker 1: And just how intelligent are pigs after all? Yeah? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this was originally published ten seventeen. Rolling it out again,

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Speaker 1: let's do it come out of the man now, Spirit,

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Speaker 1: what is thy name? My name is Legion because Yawny Room,

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Speaker 1: and he besought him much that he would not send

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Speaker 1: them away out of the country. Now there was there

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Speaker 1: nigh unto the mountains, a great herd of swine feeding,

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Speaker 1: and all the devils besought him, saying, sitting us along

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Speaker 1: the pains, allow us to go into them and forthwith

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Speaker 1: Jesus gave them leave, and the unclean spirits went out

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Speaker 1: and entered into the swamp, and the herd ran violently

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Speaker 1: down a steep place into the scene and were choked

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Speaker 1: and seek Welcome Stuff to Blow your Mind. A production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radios has to work. Hey, welcome to

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Speaker 1: Stuff to blow your mind. My name is Robert Lamb

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Speaker 1: and I'm Joe McCormick. And it's still October, so of

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Speaker 1: course we're letting out a great demonic oink today, Robert,

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Speaker 1: I know so, so you wanted to talk about a

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Speaker 1: demoniac today, And this was a very exciting idea to

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Speaker 1: me because this story in the Bible about the garrison

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Speaker 1: or gathering demoniac has long been one of my favorites.

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Speaker 1: But also because it's a story that concerns possessed swine,

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Speaker 1: I think it gives us a great opportunity to talk

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Speaker 1: about pig technology. Yeah, this is this is a really

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Speaker 1: fun one. I guess you'd say. This is definitely a

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Speaker 1: section of the New Testament that I remember turning to

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Speaker 1: when I would if I was bored in church growing up,

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Speaker 1: because it is such a weird little scene, you know,

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Speaker 1: Jesus meeting with um an individual that's possessed not by

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Speaker 1: one demon but by like thousands of demons, a legion

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Speaker 1: of demons and uh, and then negotiating them out of

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Speaker 1: the man, but not only that, sending them then into

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Speaker 1: a whole bunch of pigs, which subsequently fall off the

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Speaker 1: side of a cliff into the ocean in trown right.

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Speaker 1: And there are plenty of other stories in the New

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Speaker 1: Testament about Jesus doing various healings, doing exorcisms, so that

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Speaker 1: that happens elsewhere. But it's like the setting and the

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Speaker 1: weird conclusion of this story that make it so memorable,

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Speaker 1: going into the pigs. So maybe we should look at

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Speaker 1: this story in a little bit of context and then

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Speaker 1: come back to talk about thoughts about it's you know,

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Speaker 1: historical and theological role, and then thoughts about pigs as

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Speaker 1: animals and uh and what a stampede of of devilish

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Speaker 1: intelligence they might bring forth. So I guess let's start

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Speaker 1: with the story in the context of the Gospel of Mark,

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Speaker 1: And I think that's a good place to start because

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Speaker 1: pretty much all scholars agree that Mark is the earliest

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Speaker 1: of the four canonical gospels, since it's clear that the

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Speaker 1: other Gospels used Mark as a source, and like they

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Speaker 1: made variations on it according to their storytelling priorities, and

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Speaker 1: probably also from the use of other sources. Uh. Now,

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Speaker 1: this story does also appear in the Gospels of Matthew

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Speaker 1: and Luke, but with some changes. So in the Gospel

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Speaker 1: of Mark, the story happens in chapter five, and it's

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Speaker 1: right after a chapter where Jesus is out preaching to

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Speaker 1: a crowd. He tells the crowd a bunch of familiar parables,

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Speaker 1: like the parable of the lamp under the bushel basket

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Speaker 1: and the parable of the mustard seed. You know, if

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Speaker 1: you have faith is only the size of a mustard seed,

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Speaker 1: you can do great things hits right. Uh. And in

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Speaker 1: the chapters before this in Mark, he's done some various preaching,

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Speaker 1: some healing. I think he heals the paralytic, he heals

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Speaker 1: the man with a withered hand. But so at the

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Speaker 1: end of this uh, at the fourth chapter, after he's

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Speaker 1: been doing this preaching, Jesus says, Okay, let's go across

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Speaker 1: the sea, which is taken to refer to the Sea

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Speaker 1: of Galilee. It's a body of water uh in the area.

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Speaker 1: So Jesus and the disciples leave behind the crowds. They

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Speaker 1: get in the boat to cross the water, and on

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Speaker 1: the way across, a big storm comes up and the

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Speaker 1: disciples are all shaken in their boots. But then Jesus

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Speaker 1: wakes up and he says, peace be still, and the

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Speaker 1: storm is replaced with dead calm. And then Jesus goes

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Speaker 1: on to immediately shame his disciples for being afraid, saying,

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Speaker 1: have you still no faith? And they're all, of course

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Speaker 1: amazed by his powers, saying who is this then that

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Speaker 1: even the wind and the sea obey him. So I

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Speaker 1: think in the context of the Gospel story, uh, this

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Speaker 1: preacher Jesus has been telling parables that shows great wisdom

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Speaker 1: about the coming kingdom of God, and he is showing

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Speaker 1: more and more direct power himself all the time, not

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Speaker 1: just as a teacher, but as possibly some kind of

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Speaker 1: sorcerer or even divine being. And that's when we get

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Speaker 1: to the demoniac here. So they get to the other

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Speaker 1: side of the Sea of Galilee. And Mark says it's

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Speaker 1: in the country of the Guarasines, but other gospels say

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Speaker 1: it's in a different place, the country of the Gatherings,

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Speaker 1: And that's why they're different names for this story. The

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Speaker 1: gathering swine, the gathering demoniac, the Guarroceine swine, the Garrisceine demoniac.

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Speaker 1: But wherever it is, we immediately meet this man out

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Speaker 1: of the tombs. Yeah. And it's it's worth noting that

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Speaker 1: the differences in the other two gospels um. In Matthew,

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Speaker 1: for instance, it's not one man out of the tomb,

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Speaker 1: but two men out of the tomb. Yeah. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: then also in Luke, it's one man again, but this

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Speaker 1: time he's also naked, as if to you know, really

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Speaker 1: stress the feral nature of the individual. Well, yes, And

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Speaker 1: in Luke's telling of the story, Uh, it's I think

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Speaker 1: it's that's the one where it's stressed that he was

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Speaker 1: naked before he got the demons cast out, and then

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Speaker 1: he puts on clothes at once the demons are out

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Speaker 1: of him, right. And then sometimes in like retellings I've noticed,

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Speaker 1: especially in artistic depictions of this scene, sometimes the artists

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Speaker 1: seem to just pick and choose from all three. You know,

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Speaker 1: So I saw one where it was two naked individuals

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Speaker 1: serving as the men of the tomb. Oh. This is

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Speaker 1: a very common thing that happens because you've got, you know,

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Speaker 1: different versions of the same story that appear across the

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Speaker 1: four Gospels. Sometimes people will just like as modern readers come,

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Speaker 1: bind them all into one, so they'll put all the

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Speaker 1: elements there next to each other in ways that don't

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Speaker 1: always makes sense, but it can be funny. So what

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Speaker 1: follows is, yeah, an exorcism scene, you know, one that's

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Speaker 1: maybe not as as dramatic as modern harror viewers would

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Speaker 1: hope for. It's a little more more of a negotiation

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Speaker 1: in some respects. Yeah, but do you Yeah, on the

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Speaker 1: face of it, we have a very disturbed individual who

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Speaker 1: seems to live among the tombs and abuses himself with rocks,

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Speaker 1: like scratching himself up with rocks. Yeah, we're told he

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Speaker 1: lives in the graveyard, but he spends day and night

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Speaker 1: prowling the graveyard in the mountains, bruising himself with the

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Speaker 1: rocks and howling. Yeah. And then of course when Jesus

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Speaker 1: shows up, right, we get the unclean spirits. Immediately they

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Speaker 1: start begging Jesus like they recognize his power, which I

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Speaker 1: think is a thing that's supposed to be important in

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Speaker 1: the story. Yeah, they realized they don't have a lot

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Speaker 1: of bargaining strength here. Bright into this It's like when

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Speaker 1: the bad cops shows up in the interrogation room. They're like,

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Speaker 1: oh no, yeah, and now we're we've been getting away

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Speaker 1: with this, but now we're in trouble, and so they

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Speaker 1: immediately begged Jesus not to send them away. They reveal

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Speaker 1: their name, which I think we can come back to that,

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Speaker 1: but that might be a theologically significant thing. They reveal

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Speaker 1: their name is Legion, as in a large Roman military

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Speaker 1: unit consisting of more than a thousand soldiers. It was

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Speaker 1: different numbers at different times. You know. I was looking

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Speaker 1: at at various modern translations, and there's at least one

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Speaker 1: translation that just said our name is a lot because

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of us. I mean, I do

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Speaker 1: think that's sort of what it was supposed to mean,

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Speaker 1: but but it lacks that right, you know, like like

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Speaker 1: what if it was the name is a whole mess

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Speaker 1: of demons? Like what if the film was The Exorcist

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Speaker 1: three colon a lot instead of Legion, which, which of

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Speaker 1: course is referring back to this very this very line. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Though it might also be significant that Legion is like

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Speaker 1: a Roman contcept because of course, at the time, like

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Speaker 1: a huge theme of the Gospels is that the people,

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Speaker 1: the Jewish people are being occupied by the Romans, and

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of sort of rebellious sentiments and

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Speaker 1: anti ro Oman ideas. Yeah yeah, and when will definitely

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Speaker 1: come back to some of the Roman elements here. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But to conclude the story, of course, this was in

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Speaker 1: the opening passage we read. But Jesus commands the demons out.

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Speaker 1: They asked him to send them into a flock of

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Speaker 1: pigs nearby, and Jesus is like, okay, take the pigs.

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Speaker 1: So he sends them into the pigs, and then the

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Speaker 1: pigs immediately go stampeding down into the water of the

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Speaker 1: Sea of Galilee to their doom. So I see overall

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Speaker 1: that I think this story in its place in the

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Speaker 1: Gospel of Mark is kind of an escalation moment. Like

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Speaker 1: Jesus keeps showing greater and greater power, not just wisdom

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Speaker 1: and teaching, not just power over the winds and the seas,

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Speaker 1: but now even over a legion of demons, And so

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Speaker 1: all the disciples are of course like, oh wow, how

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Speaker 1: you know he's he's so powerful. They keep emphasizing, this

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Speaker 1: is even more powerful than we thought he was before.

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Speaker 1: So I was looking around for a little more information

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Speaker 1: on this, and I read A Spirit Possession and the

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Speaker 1: Garrison Uh Demoniac by J. Duncan M. Darrett from The

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Speaker 1: Journal Man v nine and he made the following points

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Speaker 1: about it. For the first of all, he points out

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Speaker 1: there are no really important textual textual variance of the tale,

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Speaker 1: you know, like one one man possessed by demons, too

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Speaker 1: naked or not naked like still, that the story is

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Speaker 1: essentially the same. Now, I wonder if that also refers

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Speaker 1: to the fact that there are not major like non

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Speaker 1: canonical early older texts that have different versions of the

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Speaker 1: story that change, because that's just the case with some stories.

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Speaker 1: He also points out that the man here is clearly

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Speaker 1: shunned as unclean, and he's engaging and in kind of

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Speaker 1: an out of control cleansing ritual, you know, the scraping

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Speaker 1: of the body, um you know, the the the abusing

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Speaker 1: of himself with rocks, you know, really on those same

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Speaker 1: lines as like flagellation and so forth. Um. Deret also

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Speaker 1: draws comparisons to various rights of possession in other cultures

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Speaker 1: where sensation to physical pain is dulled, which I think

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Speaker 1: is an interesting point because they're they're various, like especially

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Speaker 1: religious trials and rituals in which one will do something

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Speaker 1: that is either you know, definitely painful or takes on

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Speaker 1: the appearance of painful and just be via the like

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Speaker 1: the frenzy of the of the ritual, one is able

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Speaker 1: to to experience less pain or to uh or at

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Speaker 1: least it's you know, you get into that area where

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Speaker 1: it's like there's the experience of the of the right,

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Speaker 1: and then there is the the story of the right.

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Speaker 1: You know. Well, yeah, this also makes me think, of course,

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Speaker 1: about the nature of what was going on when people

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Speaker 1: believe they encounter demon possession in the ancient world. I mean, so,

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Speaker 1: of course, there are multiple theories about this, and it

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Speaker 1: would probably vary from case to case. Of course, one

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Speaker 1: major and pretty obvious thing is the idea that people

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Speaker 1: in the ancient world often didn't understand that they were

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Speaker 1: looking at the symptoms of various mental illnesses, and you know,

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Speaker 1: would characterize that as a person being possessed by an

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Speaker 1: unclean spirit. But you could also imagine a person who

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Speaker 1: might not necessarcesarily have a particular mental illness, but would

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Speaker 1: be prompted in some various way by the religious context

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Speaker 1: to believe that they were possessed in some way and

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Speaker 1: act out the role. Yeah. I think of some of

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Speaker 1: the medieval rights of penance that would come much later,

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Speaker 1: in which one would say, for instance, flagellate yourself with

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Speaker 1: with sticks or whips, uh you know where ragged clothing

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Speaker 1: and crawl through the streets. Uh, you know that sort

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Speaker 1: of thing. Uh. So in in in all of this,

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Speaker 1: Dred is saying that this is, you know, potentially essentially

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Speaker 1: at the theater of protests that's taking place. You know

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Speaker 1: that there is a you know, there's a performance quality

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Speaker 1: to it, um of course. And then he points out that,

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Speaker 1: you know, Jesus acquires the demon's name, which is often

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Speaker 1: an important aspect of some sort of an exorcism ritual.

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Speaker 1: And I think that even shows up in like the

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Speaker 1: the Conjuring movies, right really, Yeah, I didn't know if

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Speaker 1: there was a like an actual ancient exorcism press it

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Speaker 1: done for that, but it's in the second Conjuring movie.

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Speaker 1: There's this whole thing where it's like I figured out

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Speaker 1: the demon's name, now I can defeat it. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's definitely definitely part of Dungeons and Dragons. You really

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Speaker 1: know the demon's name, you have some power over it,

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Speaker 1: usually from the Gospel of Guy GaX. Yeah. Um. And

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Speaker 1: then he also points out what we just discussed already.

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Speaker 1: Legion is, of course a military term. The man is

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Speaker 1: possessed by a host of demons, and Jesus is he's

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Speaker 1: either speaking to all of them or perhaps to the

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Speaker 1: leader commanding them. And Jesus has presented as being, you know,

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Speaker 1: much more than a match for an entire legion of demons.

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Speaker 1: Like you said, this is a lot of this is

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Speaker 1: about presenting just how how powerful Jesus is. Yes, And

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Speaker 1: I think that's an important point of comparison when even

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Speaker 1: you look at something like in The Exorcist, you know,

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Speaker 1: the priests show up and the demon taunts them and stuff.

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Speaker 1: It's like, okay, I'm ready to do battle. When Jesus

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Speaker 1: shows up, the demon is immediately crying uncle. He's like,

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Speaker 1: oh no, don't send me out too far. Maybe just

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Speaker 1: let me go to the pigs. Like he immediately knows

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Speaker 1: he's beaten. Now. Pig there reminds us were slaughtered in

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Speaker 1: offering to the underworld at Roman burials, thus their connection

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Speaker 1: to the tombs and to this particular individual's fascination with

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Speaker 1: morbidity and with death. Pigs are associated with sacrifices to

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Speaker 1: demons as well as with beast reality, and Drett stresses

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Speaker 1: that there is a sexual connotation to spirit possession. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, this idea of of entering into the pigs,

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Speaker 1: or also just the idea of a spirit having entered

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Speaker 1: into you and taken hold of your senses. Well, that

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Speaker 1: also makes me think about another possible explanation for a

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Speaker 1: belief in spirit possession in the ancient world, which is

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Speaker 1: just maybe a person wasn't even necessarily experiencing symptoms of

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Speaker 1: mental illness or even acting out of possession. Maybe they

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Speaker 1: were just behaving in an unconventional way and people around

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Speaker 1: them said, well, you know, nobody in the right mind

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Speaker 1: would act like that, So if they violated sexual taboos

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Speaker 1: or something like that, you could say they must have

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Speaker 1: had a demon in order to do that. Now, one

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Speaker 1: thing that he does point out is that pigs are

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Speaker 1: actually great swimmers, really yeah, and also that they don't stampede.

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Speaker 1: So there's a big problem with this idea of potentially

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Speaker 1: it defends how I guess you read into the demon

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Speaker 1: possession of the pigs. But pigs on their own are

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Speaker 1: not going to stampede. They're probably not going to drown

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Speaker 1: in the river. Now, I guess you could say that, well,

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Speaker 1: they're not. They're no longer pig brains controlling those pigs.

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Speaker 1: Those are scared demon brains, and maybe they don't know

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Speaker 1: how to swim. Well, this is funny. I was also

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Speaker 1: looking up examples. I was trying to find things about

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Speaker 1: pigs stampeding. I didn't really find anything like a good

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Speaker 1: documented like zoological literature about pig stampeding, though I did

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Speaker 1: find a news story about supposedly somewhere in Syria stampede

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Speaker 1: of pigs killing some iis fighters and recent years. But

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Speaker 1: I think that's probably just like a news like a

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Speaker 1: journalist s appellation. It might have not have been a stampede,

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Speaker 1: but just like a herd of pigs. Wasn't there a

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Speaker 1: scene in a Cornet McCarthy novel where I heard of

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Speaker 1: pigs trample off into the river though probably a reference

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Speaker 1: to this very tale, I feel like it was. It

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Speaker 1: was one of the Appalachian books like it maybe a

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Speaker 1: child of God or outer dark. I don't know. I've

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Speaker 1: I've read some of those books, but I don't remember

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Speaker 1: that scene. But I could be wrong, Yeah, it might

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Speaker 1: not have been picked but something else. But there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of drowned animals at one point. Is ours

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Speaker 1: certainly now on the uncleanliness of pigs. Obviously, much has

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Speaker 1: been written about this because there you know, there there

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Speaker 1: are UH supposed practical reasons that pork is prohibited in

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Speaker 1: Judaism and Islam. One is that pigs are not very

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Speaker 1: sustainable and drier environments. That's the argument. Another is that pork,

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Speaker 1: of course can contain trickin nosis, but of course that's

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Speaker 1: taken care of if it's cooked properly. Um So, So

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Speaker 1: it's often pointed out that like that, even when Judaism

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Speaker 1: and Islam, even when these UH religions travel out of

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Speaker 1: areas where you could make the argument that a pig

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Speaker 1: is not suitable for this environment, like, the restriction still remains. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure I'm convinced by any of the alleged

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Speaker 1: practical reasons behind the prohibition on pork and other foods

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Speaker 1: in Judaism and Islam, because I mean, I haven't seen

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Speaker 1: any really convincing evidence there. It seems to be more

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Speaker 1: likely this is another one of the many unique practices

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Speaker 1: and characteristics you'd find in any religion or culture that

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Speaker 1: don't necessarily result from some kind of clear material environmental mandate.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there are some like we were just recently

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Speaker 1: talking about, you know, sky burial practices in Tibet being

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Speaker 1: a religious cultural practice, but perhaps resulting from the fact

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Speaker 1: that also within that landscape, it's hard to find places

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Speaker 1: to dig graves, it's hard to find wood to burn

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Speaker 1: bodies with, so it just sort of makes sense from

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Speaker 1: a material environmental standpoint. I think sometimes explanations like that

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Speaker 1: makes sense. But I'm I'm not convinced by any of

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Speaker 1: the pork ones right. Another one that sometimes brought up

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Speaker 1: well in the texts themselves. Sometimes a point is made

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Speaker 1: about the cloven hoof, which seems kind of nonsensical. Why

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Speaker 1: what's the problem. Yeah, there's also the idea that, well,

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Speaker 1: pigs are omnivores and they may consume scavenged flesh and

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Speaker 1: that could be seen as unclean. But I guess we've

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Speaker 1: discussed in the show before. Even strict herbivores will eat

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Speaker 1: meat on occasion. Um. I Unfortunately, like I did some

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Speaker 1: searching on this, uh and and saw some videos of

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Speaker 1: like like how many ducklings can can a particular cow

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Speaker 1: eat that, you know, I mean, it just it happens.

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Speaker 1: It's it's, it's so, it's I've never considered cows before.

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Speaker 1: We thought about like deer eating meat. Of course, squirrels

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Speaker 1: and meat. Do you think, yeah, wilder creatures right? But

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Speaker 1: this now is just haunting my brain. Why is it

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Speaker 1: so much scarier to be eaten by a cow than

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Speaker 1: any other animal? I can think because he trusted it

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Speaker 1: so much, I that you had it, had invested through

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Speaker 1: a domestication. Seems so docile and it jumps seven feet

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Speaker 1: straight in the air and eats you. Have you ever

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Speaker 1: seen how high cows can jump? It looks wrong. I

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Speaker 1: don't know that I have. Certainly I'm always impressed by

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Speaker 1: how fast a horse can move, and how fast it

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Speaker 1: can like PLoP onto the ground and pop back up again.

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Speaker 1: So let's get back though, to the religious reasons that

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Speaker 1: ultimately the social reasons to prohibit something like a pork

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Speaker 1: is explained by a Nigel Barber, PhD. In psychology today.

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Speaker 1: The signaling theory of religion puts forth that abstaining from

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Speaker 1: something like pork is a way of signaling your devotion

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Speaker 1: and provides something that a social group can bond over,

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Speaker 1: and there's a you're all going to be paying a

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Speaker 1: ritual cost for this. Basically, food taboos keep co religionists

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Speaker 1: together and and it's something where like everyone has to

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Speaker 1: give up something, you have to pay a fee to

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Speaker 1: to join this club. Yeah, that makes a lot of

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Speaker 1: sense to me. Again, I don't know that that's the

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Speaker 1: primary real reason, but that certainly seems very plausible, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think they are all kinds of things

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Speaker 1: that religions do where the main goal of doing them

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Speaker 1: is showing that you are a devoted member of the

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Speaker 1: religion and good standing. Right. Yeah, I mean, like for

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Speaker 1: a modern example, one turns to like the straight edge movement. Right.

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Speaker 1: We're on one hand, you can say, okay, there is

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Speaker 1: a sort of signaling going on here. People who are

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Speaker 1: abstaining from these various substances are doing so, and by

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Speaker 1: doing so, they can they can claim to be a

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Speaker 1: part of a particular group. However, it's not the only thing,

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Speaker 1: Like they're also you know, any individual that's that's following

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Speaker 1: that life so will also point to other reasons why

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Speaker 1: they are abstaining, not merely to be a part of

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Speaker 1: a group, but for you know, various other lifestyle purposes.

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Speaker 1: Oh sure, yeah, yeah, I mean, but whether or not

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Speaker 1: those other reasons are also truly motivating them, I think

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Speaker 1: it's hard to deny that shared abstinence creates solidarity. Right.

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Speaker 1: But to come back to the Romans, the Romans definitely

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Speaker 1: a pork. And so when the Romans roll in and began,

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Speaker 1: you know, controlling your territory, derating the pork, you are not.

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Speaker 1: There's a firm line to be drawn in the sand

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Speaker 1: there between us and them. Ye. Right, So there could

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Speaker 1: be like people all around with flocks of pigs that

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Speaker 1: they're preparing to eat, and you can look at those

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Speaker 1: things and be like, well, that's no part of my life. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: of course. Ultimately, you know, rules against eating certain animals

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Speaker 1: are going to be kind of an arbitrary agreement. And

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Speaker 1: I think a huge example of this, as well discussed

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Speaker 1: is the predominant American notion that it's well and good

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Speaker 1: to eat a pig, that eating a pig is something

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Speaker 1: that should be celebrated, we should have parades about it.

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Speaker 1: But eating a dog, well, that's just that's just not

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Speaker 1: acceptable now. And then nature of exercismism itself, well, we've

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Speaker 1: covered exorcism on the show before. And I think it's

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Speaker 1: always important to to think about rights of exorcism across

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Speaker 1: various cultures. Is is being rights potentially two of expulsion

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Speaker 1: of negative feelings, uh, negative act, repute, and in some

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Speaker 1: cases an attempt crude attempt in some cases to treat

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Speaker 1: mental illness. Uh. You know, but I think think we

404
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Speaker 1: have to think about tendency to think about the exorcism

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Speaker 1: is as a pure superstitious right, and you know, not

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Speaker 1: to think about its connotations to more secular rights, such

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Speaker 1: as expelling negative thoughts via than various meditation and yoga practices.

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Speaker 1: You know. I mean, we don't think of that as exorcism.

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Speaker 1: We don't think of that as magic, but it is

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Speaker 1: an exercise that can allow us too well to to

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Speaker 1: to quote doone to you know, to allow your your

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Speaker 1: fear to pass over and through you. Oh yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean I've seen no problem at all from a secular

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Speaker 1: standpoint accepting that exorcism could sometimes be a successful psychological intervention,

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Speaker 1: not because there are actually like like spirit demons, but

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Speaker 1: because like going like you're saying, like going through a

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Speaker 1: cathartic event where you go through some kind of ritual purging. Uh,

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying that it's necessarily a reliable practice, but

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Speaker 1: it's not surprising that it might work sometimes in some cases.

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Speaker 1: And certainly not to say that it is a better

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Speaker 1: method for like, for actual mental illness, um, but that

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Speaker 1: at any rate, I just want to like frame, you know,

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Speaker 1: provide a frame of reference for it. Um. Also, I

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Speaker 1: want to come back to the idea of pig based beings,

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Speaker 1: pig based monsters, and pig based creatures. Um. You do see,

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00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,160
Speaker 1: we should pop up in a lot of different mythologies

427
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,200
Speaker 1: around the world. Wherever they are pigs. I mean, it's

428
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 1: just given right. Wherever there are pigs, there is going

429
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 1: to be some idea of the pig half man, half

430
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:17,960
Speaker 1: pig being man. Pig monsters are are underrated for horror value, Yeah, absolutely.

431
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:22,000
Speaker 1: I feel like sometimes they're rolled out as more comedic relief. Uh.

432
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,160
Speaker 1: And in those cases, I don't I don't think enough,

433
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:29,040
Speaker 1: you know, enough emphasis is placed on just how how horrifying,

434
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,879
Speaker 1: how scary like a wild boar can be. I have

435
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 1: no respect to whatsoever for the solid movies. That's just

436
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 1: not my kind of horror film. But the one thing

437
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 1: I remember thinking was actually successful about them is just

438
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 1: the fact that like the creep in them where sometimes

439
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:47,919
Speaker 1: wears a pig mask. Oh yeah, that was one of

440
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 1: his many disguises and one of a very dramatic individual.

441
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,399
Speaker 1: He had a mask, had a puppet, he had a

442
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 1: whole production truck. The puppets just kind of goofy. The

443
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 1: pig mask is where it's at. Uh. Now, I want

444
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 1: to make a quick side note about Chinese tradition. You know,

445
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,160
Speaker 1: in all this talk of demons and pigs, I can't

446
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,439
Speaker 1: help but think of Pigsy. Are you familiar with Pigsy?

447
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 1: I don't think I know Pigsy Pigsy or what is it?

448
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:19,440
Speaker 1: A zoo um bagier from Journey into the West. So

449
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 1: if you just if you look up Journey into the

450
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 1: West and Pigsy, uh, for instance, on YouTube, you'll find

451
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 1: numerous clips, I'm sure from the various film and TV

452
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 1: adaptations of Journey into the West. I mean, they've also

453
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 1: been video game adaptations of Journey into the West, but

454
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,359
Speaker 1: the accounts vary, but basically he was punished by the

455
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: Jade Emperor for lusting after chang U, the goddess of

456
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 1: the Moon, and his punishment, he's cast down to Earth

457
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 1: and winds up in the form of a half pig,

458
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 1: half human monster. But despite his faults, he becomes a

459
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 1: great adventurer and is a key character in Journey into

460
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: the West and ultimately slays many demons. Oh, a pig slayer.

461
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 1: Did we talk about him in our in our monster

462
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: Slayer episode last year? I don't think we did. Um. Yeah,

463
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 1: I don't think Journey into the West has has actually

464
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 1: come up on the show before. But there's you know,

465
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 1: there's a there's a lot of wonderful material there if

466
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 1: we ever choose to come back to it. Oh, I

467
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,159
Speaker 1: guess I gotta read it now. Yeah, we're watching. Like

468
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,199
Speaker 1: I said, there's some fabulous film adaptations of off this.

469
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,160
Speaker 1: You got the Monkey King, you got Pigsy or the group.

470
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: All Right, I think we have to take a break,

471
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 1: but we will be right back with more about about

472
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,919
Speaker 1: the Garristine demoniac, the Gathering swine, pig science, and and

473
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 1: much more than Alright, we're back. So I've I already

474
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 1: mentioned how this is. This is one of those little

475
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: Bible stories that if you're if you're bored in a

476
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 1: Christian church, you sometimes turned to. Also, it has had

477
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,439
Speaker 1: a big influence on on horror and sort of demonic

478
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:49,439
Speaker 1: and occult themed material, most notably The Exorcist three Legion

479
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 1: a surprisingly good movie, given that The Exorcist one, of

480
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,920
Speaker 1: course horror classic Exorcist to one of the most hilarious

481
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: bad horror movies of all time. I remember it's got

482
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 1: a line in it it's something like your machine has

483
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:07,640
Speaker 1: scientifically proven there's an ancient demon locked inside her. Yeah.

484
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 1: I think if I had to rewatch an Exorcist film

485
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: this year, it would be three, Like like one is

486
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 1: a classic. But also I've always been one that is

487
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 1: believed that the best parts of the Exorcist are not

488
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:23,640
Speaker 1: the you know, the screaming crazy uh you know Reagan,

489
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,679
Speaker 1: the you know, raging out with demonic possession. It's smaller moments.

490
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 1: It's like the little what pozoozu, the creature that's been

491
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 1: made by the child or or drawn on a sheet

492
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 1: in the background. That's sure. Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.

493
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:38,920
Speaker 1: I actually think it was. Some of the best stuff

494
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 1: in The Exorcist is the parts where it's kind of

495
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 1: like a seventies character study movie. Yeah, I mean, there

496
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: are parts that almost feel kind of like a Scorsese

497
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,120
Speaker 1: movie or something with like Father Caress visiting his mother

498
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 1: and that kind of stuff and his horrible nightmares, and

499
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: I think it's a very effective horror film. But Exorcist

500
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 1: three is also really really good. It's been years since

501
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: I've seen it, but at least I won't say it's

502
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 1: as good as the first one, but it's surprisingly good

503
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 1: for being a third film. I can't think of a

504
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: third film that competes apart from Halloween three. Oh um,

505
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 1: Underworld three is the best of the Underworld. So there's that.

506
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 1: But the the Iron Legion things shows up in all

507
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 1: kinds of just like you know, demon horror, right, it's

508
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: how can you resist? It seems like such an easy

509
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 1: thing to pick up and run with. I remember it

510
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,400
Speaker 1: also shows up in something that I inexplicably read when

511
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: I was a kid. I remember buying a used copy

512
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:36,400
Speaker 1: of the screenplay or the teleplay to Stephen King's Storm

513
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 1: of the Century, which is I think not ever a

514
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 1: piece of fiction. I think he wrote it directly for

515
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: like made for TV. So I was just reading the

516
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: original work, which is his teleplay, not kings best work,

517
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 1: but basically, uh, the Demon Legion shows up in a

518
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 1: small island town in New England, of course, and he

519
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 1: demands to steal the town's children, and he he's originally

520
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: disguised as a man named Lennoge. Of course it's an

521
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: anagram for my name is for legion for but also

522
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: he's played by the demon is played by Comb Fiori,

523
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: a prolific character actor and the bad guy from one

524
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 1: of your favorites, Robert Chronicles of Critic. Oh yeah, he's

525
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 1: what the Lord Marshall? Right, right? Yeah? Is he like

526
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 1: he's like the main big bad in it, and yeah, yeah,

527
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 1: he's the head necromonger. Yeah, yeah, and he's he is

528
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 1: a wonderful character actor. He's been in tons of things,

529
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,160
Speaker 1: so great comedic actor as well. Now, in any given

530
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: like piece of a religious text, there, you know, there's

531
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 1: always various things going on with it, right, there's a

532
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: question of what does it say? What is the story?

533
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: What did the the people who wrote it or told

534
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 1: it or transcribed it mean for it to say? And

535
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: then what is the tradition of using it? How has

536
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: it been used and even misused over the years to

537
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,719
Speaker 1: drive home particular points right often what did the author

538
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 1: intend for it to mean? Versus well, how has it

539
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 1: been interpreted by the faithful over the years is a

540
00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: very different thing. Yeah, And one one interpreted in this

541
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 1: text I was surprised by was the fact that it's

542
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: been uh. This is there's been used to drive home

543
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: this idea that humans have no responsibility towards animals, particularly

544
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: uh suggested by St. Augustine of Hippo. Augustine wrote, quote,

545
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: Christ himself shows that to refrain from the killing of

546
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 1: animals and the destroying of plants is the height of superstition.

547
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 1: For judging that there are no common rights between us

548
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 1: and the beasts and trees, he sent the devils into

549
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 1: a herd of swine, and with a curse, whither the

550
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 1: tree on which he found no fruit. Oh yeah, that's

551
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: the withering of the fig tree, right, which is a

552
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 1: different story in the Bible. Jesus comes across a fig tree.

553
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 1: It says there were no figs on the tree, for

554
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: figs were not in season, and Jesus becomes angry with

555
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 1: the tree and he withers it. Yeah, I mean he

556
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: was having a bad day that day. Well, I think

557
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 1: that story to go back to what authors actually intended

558
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: versus how they're interpreted. I think a lot of scholars

559
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: think that that story was originally meant to be like

560
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: a meta for for people who did not bear good fruits. Right,

561
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 1: so it's not literally about trees or are showing off

562
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: his abilities to wither fruit at least yeah, at least

563
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: under this interpretation, it seems very a very plausible interpretation

564
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: to me. But here Augustine's running with it is like,

565
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: now it's literally about trees. It's about how trees not

566
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 1: worth nothing. You can do whatever you want to, Um,

567
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. Jesus showed it in this parable. Yeah, seen,

568
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 1: you can well imagine that. Like Augustine like was kicking

569
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 1: a pig or something or a dog and someone say, hey,

570
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: don't don't kick that dog. And he's like, well, Jesus

571
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 1: put a whole bunch of demons and pigs and drove

572
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 1: him off a cliff, So I have free reign to

573
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 1: kick as many dogs and pigs as I see fit.

574
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: Somebody like somebody shamed him for letting his orchard with her,

575
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 1: and then he's like, I'll show you, and he goes

576
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: and looks up the Bible. He's like, look right here.

577
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: So various authors have have have taken issue with Augustine's

578
00:30:54,800 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: interpretation here. Uh Christian vegetarian an Anglican priest Andrew Lindsay,

579
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,479
Speaker 1: author of Christianity and the Rights of Animals. He encounter

580
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 1: argues and says, you know, this is ridiculous that they're

581
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 1: just propping up Augustine's prior opinion that animals have no rights.

582
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 1: And he contends that the demons, ultimately they're selecting their

583
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 1: own vessel here and uh and did so because they

584
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,479
Speaker 1: were weaker creatures. Uh and uh, you know, and obviously

585
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: the demons themselves don't care for animal rights. Meanwhile, he

586
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: argues that there are plenty of other passages where it's

587
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 1: far easier to read pro animal ideas in the words

588
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 1: of Christ than it is to uh, you know, to

589
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 1: to to shoehorn in an anti animal rights agenda. Well,

590
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 1: there is one thing that I actually do wonder about

591
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 1: the story that's very interesting. Is there supposed to be

592
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: some kind of metaphorical or theological meaning to the fact

593
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 1: that the pigs, So that Jesus sends the demons into

594
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: the pigs where they asked to go. He's like, okay,

595
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 1: you can go into the pigs. And then they go

596
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 1: into the pigs, and then the pigs immediately stampede and die.

597
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 1: Why do they stampede and die? Is there is that

598
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,719
Speaker 1: just like was that just added to the story because like, okay,

599
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: you know, that'd be an interesting way to conclude it,

600
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 1: And now the demons are dealt with? Or was there

601
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 1: some like meaning they're like, does does this have something

602
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: to do with the Romans or with you know, yeah,

603
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: because we already touched on the connection between the Romans

604
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 1: and pigs. We touched on the connection between pigs and

605
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: the location with the you know, the the tombs. So

606
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: and then also you always have to wonder too with

607
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 1: stories like this, like what what other you know, pre

608
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,719
Speaker 1: existing narratives where they're out there that have potentially been

609
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: otherwise lost, that are reflected in this story. Now, Thomas Aquinas,

610
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 1: apparently I read thought that this passage showed the Christ

611
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: was primarily concerned with men rather than pigs. But and

612
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: I've seen that pointed out a few different places. But

613
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: I was looking for like a direct quote on this,

614
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: and I was looking at acquaintas his thoughts on the passage,

615
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 1: and most of it seemed to come down to him

616
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: stressing the fact that the pigs were unclean, So of

617
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: course that's the best place to send a bunch of demons.

618
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: They love unclean things, and it also shows knows he would.

619
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: He argued that the devil can't kill you unless you

620
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 1: present yourself as an unclean animal. But I don't know

621
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: that there's a lot of riffing on the scripture that

622
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: I ran across, but I'm not sure animal rights are

623
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: the lack thereof was the primary concern. Well, while we're

624
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 1: on the subject of the demonic oink, I think, uh,

625
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: this is a great opportunity to jump over to talking

626
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: a little bit about pig intelligence, pig behavior, and even

627
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 1: a very recent discovery about possible pig tool use. Yeah,

628
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 1: that that was. That was I think ultimately the the

629
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 1: bit of news that that made up my mind on

630
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: pursuing this as a topic. Yeah. So we've touched on

631
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: animal rights. We've touched on the notion of higher intelligence

632
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: in the form of demons being dropped into the bodies

633
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 1: of pigs. H Plus the notion that in some traditions

634
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: pigsy from journey into the West is a product of reincarnation.

635
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 1: Uh So, having touched on these notions, you know, we'll

636
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 1: come back around to the question, Well, how smart is

637
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 1: just a normal pig? You know, certainly, I think we

638
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 1: can assume its brain is not on part of the humans.

639
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: We can more than assume that. We can state that.

640
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 1: But they're not the dumb animals we all we sometimes

641
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 1: take them for, uh, this sort of comic relief. Look

642
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 1: how dumb the pig is. It's covered in mud, it

643
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 1: lives in a pig pin. Well, I don't know if

644
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 1: this is actually a good explanation, but at least something

645
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 1: I've heard postulated in the past is what if the

646
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: common prohibitions on eating pigs in some religions stem from

647
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 1: not the uncleanness of pigs, but the similarity between pigs

648
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,399
Speaker 1: and humans. I mean, there are a lot of sort

649
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 1: of biological and morphological similarities. For example, some pigs having

650
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 1: like fairly bare skin, kind of like a less hair

651
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 1: than most mammals have, unlike kind of like they're human cousins. Uh,

652
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: just things. Oh the apparently human meat tasting kind of

653
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,720
Speaker 1: like pork. Apparently. I've also noticed that when a pig

654
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 1: is butchered, uh, sometimes its body looks like that of

655
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: a of a human um. Particularly ever, you watch a

656
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 1: lot of like cooking shows on you know, very streaming channels,

657
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 1: and the Inevitably there'll be a scene where someone has uh,

658
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 1: you know, they're they're rolling out the slaughtered pig or

659
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: and it's been prepared for the barbecue grill, and it

660
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 1: looks alarmingly like a small person. Yeah, and so again,

661
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: I don't know if that really has all that much

662
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,839
Speaker 1: explanatory power, but I can see that a little bit

663
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 1: like maybe we anthropomorphized pigs because it's just already pretty close.

664
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 1: There's a natural leap from humans to and boy do

665
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 1: we I mean, this has always disturbed me, the level

666
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 1: to which a barbecue restaurant will anthropomorphize a pig, usually

667
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: on the logo, where it'll be you know, it'll be

668
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: like smiling, happy humanoid pigs roaming around or even doing

669
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 1: grizzly things like cooking themselves or climbing into grills. It's like,

670
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 1: what are you doing? Uh? You know, you shouldn't you

671
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 1: be like distancing yourself from this notion that the pigs

672
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 1: are rational beings and you're eating them. Well, it makes

673
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,359
Speaker 1: me think of the Chick fil A marketing strategy where

674
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 1: they would have the cows painting the signs. It's brilliant,

675
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 1: really anthropomorphize the other animal. That's that that was I

676
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: think the wise choice. So also looking around a little

677
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 1: bit just on sort of pre existing um knowledge about

678
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 1: the intelligence of pigs, because there's there's been a lot

679
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 1: of data on this. So Barry Esterbrook wrote a book

680
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: called Pigtails which gets into all of this. Uh, he's

681
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 1: a science writer, and he points out some of the

682
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: big key points about pig behavior. First of all, pigs

683
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,359
Speaker 1: have been taught to play computer games, and this gets

684
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: to basically do it to the fact that pigs have

685
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 1: proven themselves to be very good at learning new task

686
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 1: learning new tricks um, which is essentially what's going on

687
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 1: when they're playing a computer game and some of these experiments,

688
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 1: they're trainable. Yeah, pigs have a sense of self and

689
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: they can recognize themselves in mirrors. Really, they can also

690
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 1: figure out how a mirror works. I mean not in

691
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 1: terms of like how is it's made and how it's

692
00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 1: like the optics of it, but you know, they can

693
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: they can figure, you're out what they're seeing through it

694
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 1: and use it to identify food. Oh really, so they

695
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: can recognize that the mirror is a reflection of what's

696
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: behind them and stuff. Yeah, and also pigs can look

697
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: at another pig and calculate what that pig might do

698
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,760
Speaker 1: or how it might act. A two thousand sixteen University

699
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 1: of Lincoln study found that, as with humans, the pig's

700
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 1: judgment and decisions are governed by mood and personality type. Uh.

701
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 1: They're also proven to be really good remembering where food

702
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 1: stores are. And not only that, how they rate in

703
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 1: size to each other. So it's not just a matter

704
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 1: of like, oh, there's some the researchers put so much food,

705
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 1: you know, put put food here and here and here. No,

706
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: they can remember the proportions as well. You can rank

707
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,919
Speaker 1: them in their their heads. Um. And they're also really

708
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,839
Speaker 1: good at deceiving each other when it comes to food. Oh,

709
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 1: how does that work? Basically, it comes down to the

710
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 1: fact that they're they're intelligent animals, but they're also highly

711
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 1: social animals. So you know, they in the wild, wild

712
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: hogs are not living in seclusion. They're of in in

713
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:04,800
Speaker 1: contact with one another. Uh. So they are social creatures.

714
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:09,760
Speaker 1: And on the subject of domestication. Uh. The domesticated pig

715
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: diverge from wild hogs somewhere like eight thousand years ago.

716
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: That's that's when we began domesticating pigs. And uh, and

717
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 1: it's it is kind of impressive that we haven't managed

718
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 1: to domesticate the smarts out of them, like they're like,

719
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 1: even the domesticated pig is an intelligent creature. Well, maybe

720
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 1: we should explore more of that intelligence after we come

721
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,360
Speaker 1: back from a break and we can talk about pigs

722
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: and tool use. Than all right, we're back, So tool use,

723
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 1: this is uh, this is really fascinating because of course

724
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 1: tool use is our thing the humans. Tools are the

725
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: things we use to build our barbecue restaurants and to

726
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: slaughter pigs and then to cook pigs and serve pigs

727
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 1: and then to eat pigs. But apparently it takes no

728
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,879
Speaker 1: tools to cast demons from a human into pigs. We're

729
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 1: not told there's a wand involved or anything. So, yeah, Robert,

730
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:04,879
Speaker 1: I I found out about this interesting report on pig

731
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 1: intelligence recently, I think because you shared it with me. Yeah,

732
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 1: the day it came out, I I shared it with

733
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 1: our our Facebook group. Stuff to blow your mind a

734
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 1: discussion module, which is a place you can go if

735
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 1: you want to discuss episodes of the show and uh,

736
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 1: you know, sort of related studies with other listeners. Uh.

737
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 1: So for some background, talking about tool use. Tool use

738
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: is often taken, of course, is one of the most

739
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: interesting and most important signs of higher intelligence and animals.

740
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 1: It's you know, it's I think fairly plausibly argued to

741
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 1: be one of the main things that makes humans very special. Right.

742
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: We've got language, we've got tool use, right, But we're

743
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: not the only animals that use tools. A few non

744
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,959
Speaker 1: human animals show pretty clear, undisputed use of tools, of course.

745
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 1: One great example is other primates, right, like chimpanzees, Binobo's, orangutans,

746
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 1: and even I think you know, guerrillas, and some monkeys

747
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 1: and stuff. Chimpanzees will sometimes, like you, large rocks to

748
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 1: crush nutshells, use sticks for hunting or for fishing insects

749
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 1: or other prey out of crevices and enclosures. We've also

750
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 1: extensively covered tool use in some bird species in the past.

751
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 1: If you want to learn more, you can check out

752
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:18,919
Speaker 1: our older episodes on the Unsettling Depths of bird intelligence.

753
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 1: I think it was called. The primary examples here are

754
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 1: birds like Corvid's and parrots. Great example is the new

755
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 1: Caledonian crow, which has been involved in a lot of research.

756
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 1: They can use sticks or bark for rooting around inside crevices,

757
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 1: fishing for insects and larvae. Uh, sometimes even displaying really

758
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 1: startling levels of abstraction. I believe there are examples of

759
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 1: them constructing tools, like putting things together to make tools,

760
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 1: or using one tool not to get food, but to

761
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 1: access a second, better tool which can be used to

762
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 1: get food. I mean, that's interesting. And of course there

763
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 1: are other mammals. Marine mammals like cetaceans also sometimes display

764
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: behaviors might count as tool use. I think you've mentioned

765
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 1: before dolphins like using sponges as tools. Yeah, that definitely

766
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 1: comes up. What was the deal. It's basically like for

767
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: sea floor foraging, I believe so. Yeah, I'm I'm a

768
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 1: little foggy on the details of that one, but but

769
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 1: there is a there's definitely a case that has been

770
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 1: made for tool use by dolphins. Even the octopus actually

771
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:24,399
Speaker 1: invertebrate tool use. Uh. The octopus uh, for example, well

772
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 1: sometimes carry shells or like coconut shells with them to

773
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,320
Speaker 1: fold over their bodies to use as shelter, armor, hunting

774
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: blind uh. And then there are more arguable examples of

775
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,800
Speaker 1: things that might or might not be tool used, depending

776
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: on your criteria. I mean, if you really stretch it,

777
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 1: like sometimes even reptiles like croc crocodilians are alleged to

778
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 1: use tools. But I think not everyone would agree on

779
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 1: whether these behaviors count. But maybe the newest, most surprising

780
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,439
Speaker 1: discovery of animal tool use as of the day we're

781
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 1: recording this is this very recent documentation of tool use

782
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,879
Speaker 1: by pigs. So what would count ass tool use? Well,

783
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 1: I was reading a great article about this new discovery

784
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 1: and that GEO by Christine Delamore. I think this is

785
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 1: the best article I've found about the this new research,

786
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 1: and she cites a definition here which seems very reasonable

787
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 1: to me. So the definition of tool use here is

788
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 1: quote the exertion of control over a freely manipulable external object,

789
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 1: which is the tool with the goal of altering the

790
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 1: physical properties of another object, substance, surface, or medium via

791
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 1: a dynamic mechanical interaction, or to mediating the flow of information.

792
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 1: Which sounds a little complicated, but basically it means you've

793
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,280
Speaker 1: got to use an object that's not part of your body,

794
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 1: an object from the outside, to make changes to your

795
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 1: environment or objects in your environment, or to control information somehow. Now,

796
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: if you're wondering, like, how can information work. I believe

797
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 1: that would mean, for example, by changing what can be

798
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 1: seen and by whom. So if you use an object

799
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: to help you see something you couldn't otherwise see, or

800
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,399
Speaker 1: to keep somebody else from seeing something like you put

801
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,319
Speaker 1: up something to hide yourself, that could be considered tool use. Right.

802
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 1: So yeah, Like so the idea of say, the octopus

803
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 1: climbing inside of a coconut is arguably an example of this, right,

804
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,919
Speaker 1: And I think though there would be differences between like

805
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 1: going into a hole is not tool used, so you

806
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 1: could be hiding there. I think it would be like

807
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 1: if you carry along a thing with you that you

808
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 1: can hide inside. But then even then you run into

809
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 1: some difficulties. I mean, when you see an octopus doing that,

810
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 1: that seems like tool use, but when a hermit crab

811
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 1: doesn't that, that doesn't seem like tool use. Right, So

812
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 1: they're they're like, uh, They're always going to be these

813
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 1: difficulties with these edge cases about what counts and what doesn't.

814
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of arguing I think in the

815
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 1: scientific literature about does this case count or does it

816
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:53,720
Speaker 1: not count and why? But anyway, this new research about

817
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 1: pig tool use originates with a conservation ecologist named Meredith

818
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 1: root Bernstein who in October off was at a zoo

819
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 1: in Paris. She was observing a group of Visayan warty

820
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 1: pigs at this Parisian zoo. And Visayan warty pigs are

821
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 1: a critically endangered species of wild pig native to the Philippines.

822
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 1: They're critically endangered, like so many other creatures, because of

823
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 1: habitat destruction. It's the ruin of their natural rainforest homeland

824
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:26,800
Speaker 1: that has driven them to this point. You may have

825
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 1: actually seen images of them. The males of the species

826
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 1: often have a natural mohawk hair do running down the

827
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 1: length of their bodies, so they look pretty cool. Yeah, yeah,

828
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: they look pretty rough and tumble. But this group observed

829
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,320
Speaker 1: by route Bernstein, they were in captivity, and that's important

830
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 1: to remember because that can sometimes change animal behavior. I've

831
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:47,359
Speaker 1: got an image, by the way, for you to look

832
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 1: at here, Robert. The hair is mighty. Absolutely, I would

833
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,320
Speaker 1: go as far as to say that this particular hog

834
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 1: looks rad This hog could play with some kind of

835
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:00,080
Speaker 1: like some kind of minor tough and a rust al

836
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 1: mukahe movie. So in October fifteen, root Burnstein. She was

837
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 1: at this zoo and she noticed one of the pigs

838
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 1: in this enclosure picking up a piece of tree bark

839
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 1: with its mouth and then using the bark as a

840
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:17,399
Speaker 1: spade to dig around in the soil within its enclosure. Uh.

841
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 1: The pig was named Priscilla, by the way, and Priscilla's

842
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,359
Speaker 1: mate was named Billy. So the French you're good at

843
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 1: naming pigs. Actually, I don't know if the French name them,

844
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 1: but Priscilla and Billy. And then of course there were

845
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,800
Speaker 1: there were younger pigs and the enclosure too. But rout Burnstein,

846
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,840
Speaker 1: so she saw this happening, the pig picking up the

847
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 1: bark with its mouth and digging with it, and she

848
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:40,480
Speaker 1: never heard of documented tool use in any species of pigs,

849
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 1: So she went home to look it up, and she

850
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 1: couldn't find anything in the animal behavior literature. So she

851
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 1: kept returning to the zoo and documenting the pig's behavior

852
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 1: with the help of colleagues. But for several months she

853
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 1: never saw it happen again. So what was going on here? Well?

854
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 1: Delamore writes that Rute Bernstein suspected that the digging behavior

855
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,319
Speaker 1: was part of the pigs nest building process. And of

856
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,160
Speaker 1: course nest building doesn't happen year round. It's not all

857
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: the time, it's whenever there is a new litter of

858
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 1: piglets coming, and this happens about twice a year. So

859
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 1: root Bernstein and her colleagues waited, and in the following

860
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:16,800
Speaker 1: spring they did, in fact observe tool use yet again,

861
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 1: three of the four pigs in the enclosure we're using

862
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:23,760
Speaker 1: bark to help dig out their nests, bark or sticks.

863
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:27,759
Speaker 1: So does digging with bark count as tool use? We

864
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 1: can look in more detail in a minute, but yes,

865
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 1: I think it meets the regular criteria right. It's using

866
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:36,279
Speaker 1: an object outside the body, a freely manipulable object to

867
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:40,319
Speaker 1: change the environment. And there's no doubt that they're doing it.

868
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 1: There's video you can watch online. Though they do seem

869
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 1: a little clumsy at it. They don't look like hyper

870
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:49,719
Speaker 1: like dextrous tool users. It's more kind of like they're

871
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 1: flipping the stick all over the place and it kind

872
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 1: of moves the dirt around, which does make me wonder

873
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 1: what did tool use look like when like our ancestors

874
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 1: first alreted doing it, like, you know, wildly swinging things

875
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 1: around and occasionally getting some benefit out of it. Well,

876
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 1: I mean, I think a lot of us probably fit

877
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: that description when we use, you know, a particular utensil

878
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 1: or go after a particular task in the kitchen that

879
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 1: we don't normally do. Sure, like I was grading a

880
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 1: sweet potato last night, and I feel like that was

881
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 1: basically what was happening. People who were observing it might think, wow,

882
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 1: this this uh, this ape can barely manipulate this tool. Uh,

883
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:33,359
Speaker 1: I don't know if this counts. Is too using intelligence? Yes?

884
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 1: Is it tool using intelligence? Or is it just occasionally

885
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 1: rubbing and fumbling this piece of the metal against the

886
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 1: this tuber. We're not sure, Robert, or your knuckles Okay,

887
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 1: did you lose an the knuckles? No, lucky, my my knuckles,

888
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:50,360
Speaker 1: my skin, that's all fine. But that potato did suffer.

889
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 1: I have lost a knuckle or two to the greater before.

890
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 1: But my my point being, you don't have to be uh,

891
00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 1: you know, an artful user of a tool to be

892
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:02,359
Speaker 1: a tool user, right, Uh, you know that's exactly right.

893
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: So root Bernstein and her co authors published their research

894
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 1: in the journal Mammalian Biology in September twenty nineteen, and

895
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:13,800
Speaker 1: so all The authors were Meredith rout Bernstein, Truptee Narayan,

896
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 1: Lucille Cornier, and Audi Bourgeois. The article was called context

897
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:22,880
Speaker 1: specific tool use in sus Sebifrons in Mammalian Biology and

898
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:26,879
Speaker 1: this was published just in September in twenty nineteen. So specifically,

899
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 1: what's going on with the digging process here? Well, the

900
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 1: things become kind of interesting. So the authors documented pigs

901
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 1: using tools to dig four times in twenty sixteen and

902
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 1: seven times in twenty seventeen. And it seems that the

903
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 1: tool use always came in the middle of the nest

904
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 1: to digging process. Ultimately, of course the nest they're producing

905
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 1: is going to be like a little dugout pit, and

906
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:51,320
Speaker 1: this's gonna be lined with leaves, and that's where the

907
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:54,240
Speaker 1: pig let's go. Uh. They also observed that the male

908
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 1: pigs digging was clumsier and less productive than the digging

909
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 1: by the females. Uh. It also seen that the knowledge

910
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:04,760
Speaker 1: about how to use the digging implements was being passed

911
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 1: on both vertically from mother to offspring and horizontally by

912
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 1: being taught to the males by the females. Interesting. They

913
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 1: also introduced foreign objects into the enclosure like they put

914
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:20,399
Speaker 1: spatulas in there to see if the pigs would try

915
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 1: to use them. Apparently they did sort of a couple

916
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 1: of times. But they seem to prefer the sticks in

917
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 1: the bark. Yeah, I mean a spatulist seems like it

918
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 1: would It would not be the best tool anyway for

919
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 1: that task. Oh, I don't know. You could dig in

920
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:35,400
Speaker 1: loose soil, okay with the specula okay, but like a

921
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 1: metal spoon would be better. Yeah, but biting on a

922
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 1: metal spoon might hurt in their mouth. Yeah, we're still

923
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 1: giving them a human tool. H And and this this

924
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 1: is a creature that that is using a tool in

925
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:48,280
Speaker 1: a in a different matter. We need to make special

926
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 1: pig digging MECCA suits. Then we'll really see how far

927
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 1: their tool using intelligence goes. But the authors argued that

928
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:59,359
Speaker 1: the observed behaviors do meet the best definition of tool use.

929
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 1: And I want to read a quote about how they

930
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,000
Speaker 1: explain this. They say, uh, it is tool used quote

931
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 1: because it involved the manipulation of an external object, the bark,

932
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:11,719
Speaker 1: the stick, or the spatula. It occurred exclusively and regularly

933
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:15,919
Speaker 1: within a goal oriented repeated action pattern. Okay, so it's

934
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 1: not just like they're running around the sticks in their

935
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 1: mouths all the time, and occasionally it moves some soil.

936
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 1: It only happens sometimes and only when they're digging nests.

937
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:27,399
Speaker 1: And to continue with their quote, they say, and as

938
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 1: its end result, it altered both the distribution of the

939
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 1: soil to make a pit and the physical properties of

940
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 1: the tool user a physical disposition digging action, and thus

941
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 1: it likely also included information transfer to the tool user

942
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 1: in the form of appropriate receptive feedback different to that

943
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,200
Speaker 1: without tool used. So there's an information thing again, like

944
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 1: using the stick to have a different method of like

945
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 1: feeling how deep the hole is and stuff. So one

946
00:50:55,520 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 1: question is how has this behavior escaped attention so long? Uh?

947
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:03,799
Speaker 1: In Delamore's articles, she mentions that, well, wild pigs are

948
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:08,040
Speaker 1: sometimes understudied, so maybe that's the case. But also, you know,

949
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 1: one thing to think about is these pigs are in captivity.

950
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 1: Animals in captivity also sometimes show behaviors that the same

951
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:18,320
Speaker 1: animals do not exhibit in the wild. But then again,

952
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 1: it seemed like the bark was only used for digging

953
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:24,400
Speaker 1: nests and only at a specific stage in the nest

954
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 1: building process, which makes it pretty different from most of

955
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 1: the repetitive, compulsive types of behaviors that you would see

956
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:34,320
Speaker 1: induced by captivity. Right. Yeah, it's not not a situation

957
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:36,319
Speaker 1: where these pigs were doing this all the time. They

958
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 1: were only doing it like every six months during their

959
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 1: their nest building activities. Right. It's not the panther pacing

960
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:44,840
Speaker 1: in its cage in the way that it would not

961
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 1: pace in the wild. So the question is do we

962
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 1: find examples of these endangered pigs or other related pigs

963
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 1: using tools in the wild. I think this is the

964
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 1: first really documented case that's clear. But in her article,

965
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:02,600
Speaker 1: Delamore notes in interesting anecdote from somebody she talks to

966
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 1: somebody named Fernando Dino Gutierrez who's president of the Philippine

967
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 1: conservation group known as the Tallara Foundation. And so here's

968
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 1: this story, quoting from Delmore's article. Uh quote, a few

969
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 1: years ago, Gautierra has witnessed a group of wild pigs

970
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 1: pushing rocks towards an electric fence to test it. And

971
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 1: Gautierra says, as soon as they push and the rocks

972
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 1: make contact, they would wait for the clicking sound or

973
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 1: absence thereof clicking means the wires are hot and they

974
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:34,319
Speaker 1: will back off and not cross. No sounds mean it

975
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 1: is safe to investigate what's beyond the wire. So that

976
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:41,239
Speaker 1: seems like pigs using like possible edge case there of

977
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 1: pigs using tools to mediate the flow of information. They

978
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 1: were testing the fences systematically for weaknesses they remember. But

979
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:56,360
Speaker 1: as for whether these specific pigs, the vision warty pigs

980
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:58,399
Speaker 1: do this kind of thing in the wild, I think

981
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 1: we don't really know that. Of course, they're aren't many

982
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 1: of them in the wild. I think there might just

983
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:04,759
Speaker 1: be a few hundred that their numbers are not really known.

984
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 1: But wild pig scientists of the world, combine your powers,

985
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 1: figure this out, plunge the depths of pig technology. Yeah,

986
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:15,399
Speaker 1: it would be would be wonderful to hear more about this,

987
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:18,040
Speaker 1: and certainly to hear about how it's occurring in the wild.

988
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 1: Now there's one last thing though, that makes this even

989
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:25,719
Speaker 1: more interesting. It's not clear to root Bernstein and her

990
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 1: co authors that the bark or the stick provides much

991
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:33,440
Speaker 1: of a utilitarian advantage, if any. According to the study,

992
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 1: it seemed digging with the stick was sometimes less efficient

993
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 1: than digging with the hooves or with the snout, which

994
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:41,560
Speaker 1: is of course what they would normally use. I think

995
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:43,799
Speaker 1: so if and again you can see this if you

996
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:46,759
Speaker 1: watch the video. The digging does sort of work, but

997
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:49,239
Speaker 1: it also looks kind of bumbling and funny. And you

998
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:52,240
Speaker 1: can imagine that digging with the snout or the hooves

999
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:55,000
Speaker 1: would actually be pretty quick. So if the bark isn't

1000
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:59,360
Speaker 1: necessarily speeding up the digging process even though it is working,

1001
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:02,400
Speaker 1: it's if it's not making the process faster or more efficient,

1002
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:06,200
Speaker 1: why do it at all. One thing that occurred to

1003
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 1: me is well, well, maybe the snout gets sore. I

1004
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:11,759
Speaker 1: mean that could be thing. Yeah, yeah, that's that's one possibility.

1005
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 1: M One also wonders, of course, if if there is

1006
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:18,360
Speaker 1: something communicated through the act of using the tool, and

1007
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 1: it's some sort of like a physical mental fitness communication. Yeah,

1008
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 1: that's a that's an interesting thing. So this could be

1009
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 1: tool use. That actually, even though it's tool use, doesn't

1010
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:33,759
Speaker 1: exist primarily for utilitarian advantage. What if this is just

1011
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:38,399
Speaker 1: a learned animal cultural behavior. Sometimes animals do just pick

1012
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:41,279
Speaker 1: up and repeat behaviors from one another, even though they

1013
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:46,080
Speaker 1: don't provide an obvious continuing material benefit. Uh. Of course,

1014
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 1: we can imagine that the brain must be supplying some

1015
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 1: kind of internal reward that motivates the pig's behavior. But

1016
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:55,440
Speaker 1: of course, you know, we know from our own experience

1017
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:58,640
Speaker 1: that we do behaviors all the time that don't provide

1018
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 1: a clear evolutionary tilitarian benefit. They're just sort of like

1019
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 1: a cultural artifacts. Something behavior popped up. It gets rewarded

1020
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:09,960
Speaker 1: for some reason in our brains, even though it's not

1021
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 1: helping us like live longer, be stronger, or reproduce more well.

1022
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:17,640
Speaker 1: And then via culture there there are various specific tools

1023
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:19,920
Speaker 1: that we continue to use despite the fact that there

1024
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:22,320
Speaker 1: are much better ways to go about a particular task.

1025
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 1: The main idea that the main example that comes to

1026
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 1: my mind is the wooden honey ladle uh implement. Oh yeah,

1027
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:31,719
Speaker 1: we've talked about this on the show, but about how

1028
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:35,240
Speaker 1: it's just it's a messy, unnecessary thing that looks cool.

1029
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:37,640
Speaker 1: People like the way it looks. People like the way

1030
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 1: it looks. But the honey bear, the squeezeable honey bear,

1031
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:44,279
Speaker 1: is by far the superior means of putting honey on

1032
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:47,879
Speaker 1: anything or in anything. But what if these pigs are

1033
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:50,960
Speaker 1: using the sticks to dig for the same reason that

1034
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:54,319
Speaker 1: you might use the you might use the wooden honey

1035
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:56,359
Speaker 1: spoon thing. I don't even know what you call it.

1036
00:55:56,560 --> 00:55:58,759
Speaker 1: I think it has a name, and we're forgetting it

1037
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:03,719
Speaker 1: once more, the honey knob, honey, the ridged honey knob,

1038
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:06,480
Speaker 1: even though yeah, the squeeze bear that you just squeeze

1039
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:09,040
Speaker 1: with your own hands is more efficient. But yeah, why

1040
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:12,279
Speaker 1: Now Another possibility that comes to mind here too is

1041
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:15,760
Speaker 1: so so we're looking to learn more about the wild

1042
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 1: implement implementation of this tool use. So one question I

1043
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:23,320
Speaker 1: would have is, Okay, in the wild, are they using

1044
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 1: the same pieces of wood, the same pieces of bark?

1045
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:30,200
Speaker 1: Are they comparable? Uh? And if they're not, that could

1046
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:33,120
Speaker 1: be an issue. Right, maybe they're using a different type

1047
00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:36,320
Speaker 1: of wood in the wild. Oh that's true. Yeah, maybe

1048
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 1: this is a behavior that they're trying to use tools

1049
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 1: that are the inferior versions of the tool that would

1050
00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:44,879
Speaker 1: be in their native range. Right or then also they're

1051
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:47,600
Speaker 1: threatened by habitat loss, so maybe they don't even in

1052
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 1: the wild, have the same access anymore, and they're making

1053
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:54,799
Speaker 1: do with inferior tools to carry out this, uh, this

1054
00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:57,919
Speaker 1: practice that they've been doing for you know, for for

1055
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:00,879
Speaker 1: for so long. It's like after a new your apocalypse,

1056
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 1: finding humans making phone calls with tin cans and string.

1057
00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:07,120
Speaker 1: You know, it's like, uh, why are they doing that?

1058
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:09,399
Speaker 1: The tin the tin cans and string don't work all

1059
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 1: that well. But it's because they they're so used to

1060
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 1: doing the regular phone calls and they don't have the

1061
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 1: right tools anymore. Oh man, can you imagine a post

1062
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 1: apocalyptic world in which there are no more smartphones? But

1063
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 1: but but people still use like little chunks of stone

1064
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:29,560
Speaker 1: or wood as if they were smartphones that essentially like

1065
00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 1: little idols, little wooden gods that they speak to and

1066
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:38,080
Speaker 1: listen to. Yes, they carry around little rectangular flints that

1067
00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:40,560
Speaker 1: they stare at while they're out in public, And then

1068
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:42,640
Speaker 1: if they see somebody they don't want to talk to,

1069
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:45,000
Speaker 1: they can pretend to be doing something on their flint

1070
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 1: and so they don't have to look up and make

1071
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:50,520
Speaker 1: eye contact. Well, to bring it back to the gathering swine,

1072
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:52,920
Speaker 1: I mean, it makes me think about how, in a way,

1073
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 1: a lot of our culturally learned behaviors are kind of

1074
00:57:57,040 --> 00:57:59,920
Speaker 1: like a weird little demon possession, right there, a thing

1075
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 1: that gets in our brain and exists for its own sake,

1076
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:05,960
Speaker 1: even though it doesn't necessarily help us in any way,

1077
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:08,680
Speaker 1: we just keep doing it. You know, it's like it's

1078
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:13,360
Speaker 1: the it's the self rewarding subroutine. Yeah, absolutely, all right,

1079
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 1: So that you have it, I feel like we covered

1080
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:17,200
Speaker 1: a lot of ground in this episode. You know, uh,

1081
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:20,440
Speaker 1: if you're playing the the Stuff to Blow your mind

1082
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:23,000
Speaker 1: drinking game, I guess you got to you got to

1083
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:25,760
Speaker 1: take multiple shots here. We managed to fit a Bible

1084
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:28,600
Speaker 1: story in there. We had a skit with demons in it,

1085
00:58:29,200 --> 00:58:33,520
Speaker 1: We got into tool use and animal intelligence, a little

1086
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:36,920
Speaker 1: bit of Chinese mythology incorporated as well. That's a lot

1087
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:40,240
Speaker 1: of my favorite stuff. Yeah, and and it's all ultimately

1088
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:43,800
Speaker 1: Halloween episode because at the heart we're still dealing with

1089
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:47,240
Speaker 1: the story of exorcism. So I'm looking up anagrams for legion,

1090
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:51,480
Speaker 1: like like lenos in the Stephen King's story. There are

1091
00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:53,560
Speaker 1: really not very many good ones. We got leg i

1092
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 1: on Okay, that's not really good but but still good.

1093
00:58:57,640 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 1: That just inserts the space. But we also got ogl

1094
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 1: in in sounds good ego nil Yeah, I like that one,

1095
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:09,320
Speaker 1: lean Go line go and old jin old Jen. Well,

1096
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 1: those demons are gonna need a lot of names, because

1097
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:14,400
Speaker 1: there are a lot of them. I think we must

1098
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:16,480
Speaker 1: in there. All right, Well, if you want to listen

1099
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:18,840
Speaker 1: to other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, Go

1100
00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:22,120
Speaker 1: forth and do so. You'll find them wherever you get

1101
00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:24,720
Speaker 1: your podcasts and wherever you get your podcast Just make

1102
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:27,640
Speaker 1: sure you rate and review, make sure you've subscribed. It's

1103
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:29,280
Speaker 1: a great way to support the show. You can also

1104
00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:31,439
Speaker 1: get us find our episodes of Stuff with your Mind

1105
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:34,240
Speaker 1: dot com. Also, we have another show called Invention that

1106
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:37,440
Speaker 1: we uh we we highly recommend you check out this month.

1107
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:39,720
Speaker 1: We have a number of episodes that have come out

1108
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:45,520
Speaker 1: about caskets, casket science, casket history, weird casket inventions, well

1109
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 1: worth listening to if you're in the mood for more

1110
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 1: seasonal content. Yeah, if you're not subscribed to Invention, go

1111
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:56,280
Speaker 1: subscribe now. Ogle in big. Thanks as always to our

1112
00:59:56,360 --> 00:59:59,560
Speaker 1: excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like

1113
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:01,440
Speaker 1: to get in touch with us with feedback on this

1114
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:04,040
Speaker 1: episode or any other to suggest topic for the future,

1115
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:06,560
Speaker 1: for just to say hello, come on and ogil on

1116
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:18,760
Speaker 1: in at contact at Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

1117
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:21,040
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeart Radios.

1118
01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:23,400
Speaker 1: How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio

1119
01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:26,240
Speaker 1: is the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you

1120
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:36,760
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows,