WEBVTT - Would A Love Drug Be Ethical? 0:00:01.560 --> 0:00:11.360 Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey, 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:13.560 and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:15.920 and Jerry's here too, and this is stuff you should know. 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:21.520 I got no little MOONI joke for this to start. 0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:23.480 Right, let's dive into love drugs. 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:27.680 Okay, well, Chuck, would you ever take a love drug 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:31.760 if they were available? No? 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:36.600 But based on the couple of people that were sort 0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:38.880 of highlighting on who have been researching this kind of thing, 0:00:39.760 --> 0:00:43.480 it's definitely something I think has more merit than when 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:46.960 you just think about quote unquote love drug. 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:49.920 Yeah, I saw. I think it was a new scientist, 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:54.640 even some very legitimate science magazine source was saying like, 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:56.560 these things are going to be around in ten years. 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:02.400 So there's a group of philosophers, especially an ethicist named 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:08.600 Julian Savilesque from oh I think he's from Oxford, and 0:01:08.600 --> 0:01:11.280 then another guy named Brian Erp who I also believe 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:14.600 is from Oxford. They have kind of been hitting this 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:16.920 hard and actually came out with the book called Love Drugs, 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:22.720 colon the Chemical Future of Relationships. I think in Europe 0:01:22.760 --> 0:01:25.279 it's called Love is the Drug, which is a roxy 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:28.720 music reference. If I'm not mistaken, and they're at the 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:30.880 center of this whole talk. But one of the cool 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:33.840 things about when a philosopher puts a book out there's 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:39.760 other philosophers that critique it and interesting like alternative thoughts 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:42.800 and explanations and stuff like that. And this is no 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:47.160 different from anything else. But what Sevillesque and Erp are 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:51.200 basically saying is these things are coming and here's how 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:54.000 they could work, and here's what to look out for 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:56.440 and how they can help. And that's essentially the basis 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:58.160 of this episode. 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:01.880 Yeah, for sure, this comes with some caveats at the beginning, 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:05.560 chiefly because they use the word love drug, and that's 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:07.960 a that's a term that means a lot of things 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:13.640 to everybody that you might ask across different cultures, even 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:18.400 within the same culture Situationally, love can mean something different 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:23.160 to to to anybody. So the first thing to kind 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:25.799 of know is that there's not anyone out there saying like, hey, 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:30.280 love is just a phenomenon. That's because of the chemicals 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:33.640 in your brain. Like I think even the most hard 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:38.760 hearted philosopher will say, or chemists will say, like, yeah, 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:40.880 there are chemicals that work in the brain that that 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:43.480 you know, release all kinds of hormones and things that 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:46.520 make us feel certain ways, and it factors in, but 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:51.160 like there's also this indefinable thing that will never be 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:54.440 able to like understand and control through a medication. 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:57.760 Yeah, I think what they're what they're getting at. Then, 0:02:57.840 --> 0:03:00.840 from that point on, so they're saying, yes, we agreed, 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:04.239 love is not just biochemical, but there are a lot 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:08.280 of biochemicals involved in the feeling of love, and whatever 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:11.360 love is, it's associated with these chemicals. So if we 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:15.960 can manipulate these chemicals, perhaps we can jack the feelings 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:20.680 of love up or create love, or strengthen love. That's 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:23.120 kind of like the position they're coming from. And so 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:26.400 from that point on, just accepting that love has some 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:29.799 sort of biochemical basis to it or signature to it. 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:32.600 They then moved on to the work of an anthropologist 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:36.760 named Helen Fisher, who had dedicated essentially her career to 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:43.320 love basically, and she divided love into essentially three parts. 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:46.000 And this sounds really familiar to me. There's no way 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:48.240 we haven't talked about this before, have we did? It 0:03:48.280 --> 0:03:49.360 seem familiar to you. 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:54.360 Just feeling that way about you and Jerry and my 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:55.360 wife and my daughter. 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:59.320 Okay, well let's get to it. Lust. Oh well, never mind, 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:04.119 clearly you felt about me and Jerry. Romantic attraction sometimes 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:06.560 and then attachment, I think is the one you're talking about. 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:10.480 For sure, those are the three stages. A lot of 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:15.400 people will say that those occur in that order. Fisher 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:18.159 is like, no, it can occur in really any order 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:22.400 and then fall back out of order and back into order, which, 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:25.560 you know, I kind of agree with that notion, but 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:29.119 she does say that, you know, these are the things 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:33.360 that package together as what we would look around the 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:36.640 world at and agree on as romantic love, like a 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:38.320 long term love relationship. 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:41.160 Yeah, and when you look around the world, it's expressed 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:44.960 in different ways, sometimes very privately, sometimes there's PDA, like 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:48.919 it's just different culturally. But if you strip all that 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:52.479 stuff away, you're going to find those three stages essentially, 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:55.760 or those three parts of that package. Not everybody agrees 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:59.960 with that. A psychologist named Lisa Diamond from the UNI 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:02.880 University of Utah, which by the way, if you're ever 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:05.359 bored and you want to learn about epigenetics, go to 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:08.040 the University of Utah site. I think I've mentioned this before. 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:13.440 They have a world class, user friendly epigenetics website. It's amazing. 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:18.159 But anyway, Lisa Diamond believes in more of a split 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:23.280 attraction model, and she says sex and romantic attraction they 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:27.560 are independent biologically, they're functionally independent. They don't depend on 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:30.320 one another, and therefore Helen Fisher's wrong about this whole 0:05:30.360 --> 0:05:31.960 thing being a single package. 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:35.120 Yeah, and she's got some points, and she can point 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:38.719 to some studies that seem to back this up. One 0:05:38.760 --> 0:05:40.800 of which that she cites on the RAG is that 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:44.159 sixty one percent of women and thirty five percent of 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:48.479 men have reported that they've experienced infatuation without a need 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:54.760 for sex. So that certainly makes sense. But if you 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:58.320 look at sex and romance and love in the way 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:01.400 that the culture of a lot of the world looks 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:05.000 at it, at least that three part chemical formula from 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:08.880 Fisher carries a lot of common sense weight, I think. 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:12.560 And we're going to look at some of these chemicals now, 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:17.799 including at first testosterone and estrogen, of course, which drive 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:18.520 the libido. 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:20.760 That's sort of the first bucket. 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:24.400 Yeah, that's the last part right right. The next one, Chuck, 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:28.880 would be the attraction part, or the romantic attraction and 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:33.400 that that's associated with a bunch of different ones, dopamine, nouropenephrine, 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:38.520 which increases arousal and attention, cortisol, which is interesting, but 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:41.320 it totally makes sense when you think about it. Cortisol 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:46.159 stress symptoms include things like racing heart and sweating palms. 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:56.520 Another one serotonin. Serotonin regulates mood and keeps out intrusive thoughts. 0:06:56.560 --> 0:06:59.560 So when there's a dysregulation of serotonin, those things can 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:03.040 kind of weep in and you can feel intense, intense 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:05.560 feelings and think about nothing else but the person you're 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:10.080 romantically attracted to. And you put all those things together, 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:14.560 and you've got the chemistry, the brain chemistry essentially of 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:18.760 romantic attraction, the thing that's beyond just lost the thing 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:21.000 or you want to be with that person. 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:22.280 Yeah, for sure. 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:25.040 And when you have that initial attraction and then it 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:29.240 settles in to just sort of normal relationship status, I 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:32.360 guess that puppy love sort of wears off. Those are 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:35.680 chemical reactions as well. That cortisol that shot up and 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:37.920 the lack of serotonin, those kind of level off, and 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:39.480 that's why you level off. 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:41.840 It's very sad, but it happens. 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:43.120 So what about attachment. 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:48.400 Attachment is oxytocin. That is one that we've talked about 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:51.400 a lot on the show. Also one of this very 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:56.720 closely related vasopressin, which is the one that males and 0:07:56.920 --> 0:08:00.560 male mammals at least is most important for bonding. And 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:04.000 this is you know, when you have sexual intercourse or 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:07.400 maybe some other kind of intimate contact. Hugs, even a 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:11.760 good hug, can release some oxytocin, so well other things 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:15.200 that you can do like hugging kissing other people, and 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:17.560 that's when your empathy and your trust and your feelings 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:19.720 of safety are really going to ramp up. 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:24.040 And that's a big deal. That's how you become attached. 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:31.480 Right And so evolutionarily speaking, caring for offspring is facilitated 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:35.240 by oxytocin in a lot of ways. There's a tremendous amount. Remember, 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:41.439 oxytocin is like in part responsible for breast milk production, 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:45.239 Like there's a huge increase of it during labor and delivery. 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:49.000 It's a big deal. But it also has to do 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:52.959 with pair bonding with mates, the people who come together 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:56.920 and reproduce to create that offspring. To put it really biologically, 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:03.360 so there's a question it's not just granted science that 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:07.480 humans are pair bonding mammals like say prairie boles, which 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:11.600 we'll talk about in a minute, but as insofar as 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:16.320 we are, the oxytocin has a lot to do with that, 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:18.000 I think, is what I'm trying to say. So much 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:20.160 so that people call that the love drug. 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:23.400 Yeah, for sure, Like if you google love drug, you'll 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:25.040 probably run across that pretty quickly. 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:29.200 That or ecstasy, yeah, which we'll also get to. So 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:30.600 one of the other big caveats. 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:34.600 And I imagine like every lecture that Sabilesque and Erp 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:38.680 probably give start off with them saying, by the way, 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:41.520 when we're talking about a love drug or a love potion, 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:46.240 we're not talking about what you've seen in movies and 0:09:46.320 --> 0:09:51.480 stories and fairy tales. When like some losers attracted to 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:54.480 like the hottest person in their class and so they 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:56.959 spike their drink and all of a sudden that person 0:09:57.000 --> 0:10:00.520 thinks they're gorgeous and that you have a winning person sonality. 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:02.719 They were like, we're not talking about that at all. 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:06.640 There's not a way to do that, and even if 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:10.920 there was, that's ethically not it's dangerous to even talk 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:14.760 about something like that. But what we're talking about is 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:18.480 people that are in relationships, who are in long term 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:24.720 partnerships or marriages to use, potentially use these drugs to 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:28.719 give them some boosts when they need it to and 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:32.240 increase those feelings, not necessarily take them back to like 0:10:32.240 --> 0:10:36.480 the puppy love stage, but not not do that, right. 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:38.480 I say, we take a break and we'll come back 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:40.880 and talk a little more about that. How about that. 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:45.760 Yes, it's great, We'll be right back. 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:11.640 Okay, Chuck. So where we left off, we're basically saying 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:14.160 that savillsqu and ERP and all of them are like, 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:16.960 we're not. You can't create love out of nothing at all, 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:20.839 as air supply would have put it for these love drugs. 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:25.440 These again generally hypothetical theoretical love drugs, but you could 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:28.160 use them to help people who want to stay together 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:33.319 but for one reason or another have lost the attachment 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:37.720 that they once had that could help people a lot. 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:40.680 And that's kind of what they're pointing to, is like 0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:43.199 the main use of something like a love drug if 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:44.360 we ever come up with one. 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:48.319 Yeah, And they'll also say things like, hey, if you 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:51.480 think we sound like human monsters for trying to sort 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:55.120 of regulate or increase these good time feelings by the 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:58.880 use of drugs. Like, what do you think happens when 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:02.160 a married couple this been married for twenty five years 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:03.800 and are a little sick of each other they go 0:12:03.880 --> 0:12:06.880 on a sweet, awesome vacation or go out and have 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:09.080 a couple of drinks together and at a nice dinner. 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:13.560 It's basically the same thing that we're talking about, is like, 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:18.240 those are things that people are accepting as a way 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:20.600 to do that in your marriage, and we're just talking 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:22.560 about doing it in a way that's just a little 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:24.079 more dialed in and scientific. 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:26.880 Exactly. You can take a love drug or you can 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:30.360 go to PF Chang's your choice, but the result's gonna 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:32.320 be the same. You're gonna fall right back in love, 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:36.520 right Yeah, sure, so yeah, that is a question. Though 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:38.080 it's kind of like, Okay, well wait a minute, what 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:41.600 if we're not if humans aren't actually pair bonded, if 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:45.440 we're not evolutionarily meant to be monogamous, then it does 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:50.840 kind of seem to be at least counter evolutionary to 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:53.920 take a drug to stay together. I mean, what if 0:12:53.960 --> 0:12:57.439 that's like, you know, that's a signal that boredom is 0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:00.000 a signal that you need to find a different relationship 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:02.360 or move on from the other one. I mean that 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:05.040 might be true in some cases, but there's also plenty 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:11.040 of cases too where people are not functionally able to 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:15.280 be attached as they want to be to their mates 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:19.080 in a relationship, say people with autism, people with ADHD. 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:22.080 They might want to be in that relationship, but they're 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:25.000 not bringing it like they need to. That's a good 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:30.000 example of how of supporting a monogamous relationship essentially, rather 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:33.320 than just forcing somebody to stay in by drugging them. 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:35.040 Yeah, for sure. 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:39.040 And also like, even though this might fly in the 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:42.199 face of evolution, because I think they even say that, 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:45.640 you know, it seems like evolutionarily, we're supposed to get together, 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:49.120 have a kid, and stick around together for about four 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:52.160 years to get that kid going in life, and then 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:55.680 that's it, evolutionarily speaking. But they're quick to point out like, 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:59.640 there are a lot of benefits to long term coupling. 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:02.560 You know, it's good for your mental health. You know 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:05.040 that studies have shown that it can be good for 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:08.600 your mental health and physical health and overall well being. 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:11.520 So and people are doing it anyway, you know, they're 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:16.480 not like trying to rewrite this. People are staying married anyway, 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:19.520 So they're saying, why don't we give people better tools 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:23.000 in a clinical setting is like part of couple's therapy, 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:26.000 so they can connect on a level that they haven't 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:26.560 in a while. 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:30.120 Yeah, you can make a case like, evolutionarily speaking, we 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:32.600 should be beating up people who have different hair color 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:35.520 than us, but we don't do that because we've agreed 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:39.920 as modern society that's in the past. Evolutionarily speaking, you 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:42.480 can make the same thing for monogamous relationships even if 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:46.240 we didn't evolve to. Socially speaking, we've decided as humans 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:48.680 we're kind of into that kind of thing, So why 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:51.200 not use a drug to support that when needed? That's 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:53.280 what they're saying. That's what they're saying. 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:56.600 And also they're pointing out things. These guys make a 0:14:56.640 --> 0:14:58.280 lot of good points, Yeah, have to say. 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:00.840 And also so does Livia by the way, who helped 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:01.680 us out with this one. 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:04.680 Yeah, Lyvia weight in on some stuff and I thought 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:07.720 it was all like super valid and smart. But they 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:10.360 also point out things like, hey, you know, we're on 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:13.440 a bunch of anti love drugs, Like a lot of 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:17.080 these SSRIs that people are taking are lowering their sex drive, 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:21.440 maybe dampening their feelings and sort of dulling their feelings, 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:24.480 which is going to affect their partner. And the medical 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:30.000 community is like prescribing this stuff to individuals when people 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:36.600 aren't just individuals. They're in partnerships and marriages where the 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:39.280 whole family needs to be considered with stuff like this, 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:42.400 and the medical community doesn't look at it that way, 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:42.960 and they should. 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:47.760 Yeah, And they're using the opportunity and discussing love drugs 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:50.600 to point out that we should be doing this with 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:54.960 other drugs that are already in wide use, like you said, SSRIs, 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:58.600 like drugs that impact the way that you interact with 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:01.160 other people for good or ill. This has to be 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:03.520 considered and it should be considered as part of the 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:06.160 love drug too, right. I think that's essentially what they're saying. 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:10.320 Yeah, Yeah, as well as like, hey, you don't just 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:14.400 have to use these drugs to treat a disease, Like 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:17.320 why not use these drugs for people that don't have 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:21.240 any disease to actually enhance their life in their romantic life. 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:24.880 That's a huge one too, because what they're essentially saying. 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:28.520 I watched a couple of lectures by Brian Erp and 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:30.560 he kind of really hit on this in one of them. 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:34.680 He was basically saying, like, we have this a society, 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:40.680 at least American society, we have this really weird dichotomous 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:47.440 view of drugs. Right, drugs that are made by pharmaceutical companies, 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:52.280 that are prescribed by doctors aoka, but we only use 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:55.760 those to treat maladies. When you start to use those 0:16:55.800 --> 0:17:00.800 same drugs that are pharmaceuticals and prescribed to improve something 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:04.280 that we've already agreed is a good enough baseline, now 0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:08.160 you're entering into the realm of recreational drugs, and we 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:10.440 as a society are basically like, we're not cool with 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:14.080 recreational drugs. And that's what Sevillski and one of the 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:16.560 other points they're taking the opportunity to point. I was like, 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:20.359 that doesn't make any sense morally ethically. Why would you 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:23.960 not use something that can improve something that to make 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:26.240 you happier, to make you feel closer to your mate, 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:29.760 even if you're already doing good enough. And I think 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:33.600 that's a really good point too. But the other part 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:36.439 of that point is there's a concern that we would 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:40.959 if we start creating love drugs. Then, as a society, 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:44.760 we would expect pharmaceutical companies to come up with some 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:48.800 malady that these need to treat or else they're not 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:51.520 going to go anywhere, So we need to come up 0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:55.520 with something like hypo lovia or something like that, where 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:57.840 we're just not that good at loving, so we need 0:17:57.880 --> 0:17:59.760 these pills. And now all of a sudden we have 0:17:59.840 --> 0:18:02.679 late like you're not very good at loving. There's a 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:05.560 new label for somebody, just because we can't be like 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:08.000 this in and of itself is a good thing. We 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:09.480 don't have to medicalize it. 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:13.119 Yeah, don't take love a cell if you have a 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:14.320 bad reaction to love a cell. 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:15.040 That's right. 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:19.679 That's a little inside joke for our live show fans, right. 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:22.320 Yeah, for sure, which we'll be releasing that not too 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:23.840 far from now, I would guess. 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:27.800 Right, Yeah, probably end of the year ish fall, late. 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:30.320 Fall, let's see, let's see yeah, late fall. 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:33.639 All right, So you know what kind of drugs are 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:36.320 we talking about? You know, who knows what's coming down 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:37.920 the line. If we're looking at what's in front of 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:40.840 us right now, we can talk about a few things 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:45.639 we've already talked about. Booze alcohol is a drug, and 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:48.720 alcohol is a drug that has already used for this. 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:52.720 They use this, Sabelescu and you know, and use this 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:56.639 as an example of like the potential, like, hey, someone, 0:18:56.960 --> 0:18:58.480 it's fine if someone goes out and has a couple 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:01.439 of drinks on a first date to sort of relax 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:05.040 them and make them a little more socially maybe less awkward, 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:08.320 if that's how they might feel. And you know, again 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:10.200 they're saying, like this is what we're talking about. 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:11.760 We're already doing it with booze. 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:15.680 Yeah, I mean that. Yeah, that's a great smart thing 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:17.919 to point out, because it's like, oh, okay, well you 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:22.520 just disarmed me, savillsqu that's a point to you. They 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:25.800 also point out that we have sex drugs in rock 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:30.919 and roll, like viagra is a sex drug taking testosterone 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:34.639 low t Ask Frank what's his name, He'll tell you 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:37.920 the ladies are gonna like it too. These are libido 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:41.879 boosting chemicals or erection producing chemicals, and the point of 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:45.359 them is to have more or better sex. Right, And 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:49.000 so Savillsque and ERP and their ilk aren't saying like 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:51.680 that's a love drug. They're saying these drugs can help 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:55.199 facilitate the things that produce feelings of love, say, like 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:59.879 the release of oxytocin that comes from sex, so indirectly tho, 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:02.960 those are already love drugs that are on the market. 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:05.560 Wait, who's Frank so and so. 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:10.399 Frank he's a Hall of Fame MLB slugger from the 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:12.600 nineties maybe early two thousands. 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:14.480 Oh oh, Frank Thomas. 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:17.160 Yes, he does those ads with Doug Flutie. 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:20.400 Yeah, yeah, I've seen those. I forgot about those. 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:22.920 And he does that creepy like she's gonna love it too. 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:27.200 Yeah, it's a little creepy, but also like, well they 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:27.920 got paid for those. 0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:30.800 Never mind. Yeah, I was gonna say good for them 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:33.480 for like, you know, for taking the mantle of men 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:34.560 with low TI, but uh. 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:44.080 So, good for them. So you mentioned prairie vols earlier. 0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:49.240 Prairie vols are are great little rascals. They're good comps 0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:54.320 for human behaviors when it comes to mating and bonding 0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:57.000 and stuff like that. They bond in ways that are 0:20:57.080 --> 0:21:00.920 kind of like us in our marriages. So they bond 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:05.320 initially too because of sex, because that oxytocin is released, 0:21:05.800 --> 0:21:09.280 kind of like we do. When they're bonded, they like 0:21:09.359 --> 0:21:11.840 to spend time with one another. They nest and make 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:15.680 homes together, they care for their offspring together, they work together. 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:17.439 They go to the farmers market together. 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:19.399 Yeah, they go to the farmer's market. 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:23.359 They buy those light up roses at traffic stops, people 0:21:23.359 --> 0:21:23.800 buy those. 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:26.960 Sure, I thought it was just some sort of ploy 0:21:27.040 --> 0:21:28.119 for something else. 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:32.560 Like there's you know, a kilo of cocaine in the 0:21:32.600 --> 0:21:34.000 bottom of that bucket, right, or. 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:36.680 They want you to like come meet their friend the leader. 0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:38.200 Right, Yeah, exactly. 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:40.960 Well maybe this I've never bought them, but they've done 0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:46.680 lab experiments where they have been ministered oxytocin to females 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:50.920 and then the vasopressin for the males, and it caused 0:21:50.960 --> 0:21:52.960 them to bond just like they would if they had mate. 0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:56.400 It without mating, and if they block those chemicals, they 0:21:56.400 --> 0:21:59.199 don't form the bonds. So it's kind of you know, 0:21:59.240 --> 0:22:01.399 it's not direct, but it's kind of like sitting right 0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:03.080 there saying hello, this works. 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:07.440 Yeah, And I mean again, prairie rolls are definitely pair 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:12.040 bonded species, and humans aren't necessarily, But the fact that 0:22:12.359 --> 0:22:14.960 all of those brain chemicals do the same things to 0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:18.000 them that they appear to do to us, that's pretty 0:22:18.280 --> 0:22:22.200 it is a useful model for sure. And oxytocin again, 0:22:22.320 --> 0:22:24.600 we're going to keep hitting that because there's a good 0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:27.200 reason why people call it the love drug. And there's 0:22:27.320 --> 0:22:32.680 already available on the market intra nasally taken like one 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:37.000 of those nasal sprays that you squeeze. It's oxytocin. It's 0:22:37.040 --> 0:22:40.920 available in that form, and it shouldn't cross the blood 0:22:40.920 --> 0:22:44.359 brain barrier, but it does something. It actually does have 0:22:44.400 --> 0:22:47.719 an effect. Studies have shown like this actually has an 0:22:47.800 --> 0:22:51.120 oxytocin like effect on the people who use it. They 0:22:51.119 --> 0:22:54.320 think maybe if it doesn't actually cross the blood brain barrier, 0:22:54.440 --> 0:22:57.639 just raises the general level of the oxytocin in your system. 0:22:57.800 --> 0:23:02.679 Who knows. But from that people have proposed uses of 0:23:02.680 --> 0:23:06.199 this stuff that's already on the market in ways that 0:23:06.280 --> 0:23:09.400 are not quite love but more kind of tap into 0:23:09.400 --> 0:23:12.680 the idea that you can build trust with somebody through 0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:15.760 oxytocin and that if you dose them with that, they 0:23:15.800 --> 0:23:16.919 will have to trust you. 0:23:17.480 --> 0:23:19.639