1 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey, 2 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck 3 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: and Jerry's here too, and this is stuff you should know. 4 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: I got no little MOONI joke for this to start. 5 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 2: Right, let's dive into love drugs. 6 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: Okay, well, Chuck, would you ever take a love drug 7 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: if they were available? No? 8 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 3: But based on the couple of people that were sort 9 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:38,880 Speaker 3: of highlighting on who have been researching this kind of thing, 10 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:43,480 Speaker 3: it's definitely something I think has more merit than when 11 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 3: you just think about quote unquote love drug. 12 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I saw. I think it was a new scientist, 13 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: even some very legitimate science magazine source was saying like, 14 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: these things are going to be around in ten years. 15 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: So there's a group of philosophers, especially an ethicist named 16 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: Julian Savilesque from oh I think he's from Oxford, and 17 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: then another guy named Brian Erp who I also believe 18 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: is from Oxford. They have kind of been hitting this 19 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: hard and actually came out with the book called Love Drugs, 20 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: colon the Chemical Future of Relationships. I think in Europe 21 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,279 Speaker 1: it's called Love is the Drug, which is a roxy 22 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: music reference. If I'm not mistaken, and they're at the 23 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: center of this whole talk. But one of the cool 24 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: things about when a philosopher puts a book out there's 25 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 1: other philosophers that critique it and interesting like alternative thoughts 26 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: and explanations and stuff like that. And this is no 27 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: different from anything else. But what Sevillesque and Erp are 28 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: basically saying is these things are coming and here's how 29 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: they could work, and here's what to look out for 30 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: and how they can help. And that's essentially the basis 31 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: of this episode. 32 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, this comes with some caveats at the beginning, 33 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 3: chiefly because they use the word love drug, and that's 34 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 3: a that's a term that means a lot of things 35 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 3: to everybody that you might ask across different cultures, even 36 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 3: within the same culture Situationally, love can mean something different 37 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 3: to to to anybody. So the first thing to kind 38 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:25,799 Speaker 3: of know is that there's not anyone out there saying like, hey, 39 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 3: love is just a phenomenon. That's because of the chemicals 40 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 3: in your brain. Like I think even the most hard 41 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 3: hearted philosopher will say, or chemists will say, like, yeah, 42 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 3: there are chemicals that work in the brain that that 43 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 3: you know, release all kinds of hormones and things that 44 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 3: make us feel certain ways, and it factors in, but 45 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 3: like there's also this indefinable thing that will never be 46 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 3: able to like understand and control through a medication. 47 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think what they're what they're getting at. Then, 48 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: from that point on, so they're saying, yes, we agreed, 49 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:04,239 Speaker 1: love is not just biochemical, but there are a lot 50 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: of biochemicals involved in the feeling of love, and whatever 51 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 1: love is, it's associated with these chemicals. So if we 52 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: can manipulate these chemicals, perhaps we can jack the feelings 53 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: of love up or create love, or strengthen love. That's 54 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: kind of like the position they're coming from. And so 55 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: from that point on, just accepting that love has some 56 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,799 Speaker 1: sort of biochemical basis to it or signature to it. 57 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: They then moved on to the work of an anthropologist 58 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: named Helen Fisher, who had dedicated essentially her career to 59 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: love basically, and she divided love into essentially three parts. 60 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: And this sounds really familiar to me. There's no way 61 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: we haven't talked about this before, have we did? It 62 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: seem familiar to you. 63 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 3: Just feeling that way about you and Jerry and my 64 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 3: wife and my daughter. 65 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: Okay, well let's get to it. Lust. Oh well, never mind, 66 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:04,119 Speaker 1: clearly you felt about me and Jerry. Romantic attraction sometimes 67 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: and then attachment, I think is the one you're talking about. 68 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 3: For sure, those are the three stages. A lot of 69 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 3: people will say that those occur in that order. Fisher 70 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:18,159 Speaker 3: is like, no, it can occur in really any order 71 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 3: and then fall back out of order and back into order, which, 72 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 3: you know, I kind of agree with that notion, but 73 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,119 Speaker 3: she does say that, you know, these are the things 74 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 3: that package together as what we would look around the 75 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 3: world at and agree on as romantic love, like a 76 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 3: long term love relationship. 77 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, and when you look around the world, it's expressed 78 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: in different ways, sometimes very privately, sometimes there's PDA, like 79 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,919 Speaker 1: it's just different culturally. But if you strip all that 80 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 1: stuff away, you're going to find those three stages essentially, 81 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: or those three parts of that package. Not everybody agrees 82 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: with that. A psychologist named Lisa Diamond from the UNI 83 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: University of Utah, which by the way, if you're ever 84 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,359 Speaker 1: bored and you want to learn about epigenetics, go to 85 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 1: the University of Utah site. I think I've mentioned this before. 86 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: They have a world class, user friendly epigenetics website. It's amazing. 87 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 1: But anyway, Lisa Diamond believes in more of a split 88 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:23,280 Speaker 1: attraction model, and she says sex and romantic attraction they 89 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: are independent biologically, they're functionally independent. They don't depend on 90 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: one another, and therefore Helen Fisher's wrong about this whole 91 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: thing being a single package. 92 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, and she's got some points, and she can point 93 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 3: to some studies that seem to back this up. One 94 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 3: of which that she cites on the RAG is that 95 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 3: sixty one percent of women and thirty five percent of 96 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 3: men have reported that they've experienced infatuation without a need 97 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 3: for sex. So that certainly makes sense. But if you 98 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 3: look at sex and romance and love in the way 99 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 3: that the culture of a lot of the world looks 100 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 3: at it, at least that three part chemical formula from 101 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 3: Fisher carries a lot of common sense weight, I think. 102 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 3: And we're going to look at some of these chemicals now, 103 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:17,799 Speaker 3: including at first testosterone and estrogen, of course, which drive 104 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 3: the libido. 105 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 2: That's sort of the first bucket. 106 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the last part right right. The next one, Chuck, 107 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: would be the attraction part, or the romantic attraction and 108 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: that that's associated with a bunch of different ones, dopamine, nouropenephrine, 109 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: which increases arousal and attention, cortisol, which is interesting, but 110 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: it totally makes sense when you think about it. Cortisol 111 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: stress symptoms include things like racing heart and sweating palms. 112 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: Another one serotonin. Serotonin regulates mood and keeps out intrusive thoughts. 113 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: So when there's a dysregulation of serotonin, those things can 114 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 1: kind of weep in and you can feel intense, intense 115 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: feelings and think about nothing else but the person you're 116 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: romantically attracted to. And you put all those things together, 117 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: and you've got the chemistry, the brain chemistry essentially of 118 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: romantic attraction, the thing that's beyond just lost the thing 119 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: or you want to be with that person. 120 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. 121 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 3: And when you have that initial attraction and then it 122 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 3: settles in to just sort of normal relationship status, I 123 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 3: guess that puppy love sort of wears off. Those are 124 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 3: chemical reactions as well. That cortisol that shot up and 125 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 3: the lack of serotonin, those kind of level off, and 126 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 3: that's why you level off. 127 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 2: It's very sad, but it happens. 128 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: So what about attachment. 129 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 3: Attachment is oxytocin. That is one that we've talked about 130 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 3: a lot on the show. Also one of this very 131 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 3: closely related vasopressin, which is the one that males and 132 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 3: male mammals at least is most important for bonding. And 133 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 3: this is you know, when you have sexual intercourse or 134 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 3: maybe some other kind of intimate contact. Hugs, even a 135 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 3: good hug, can release some oxytocin, so well other things 136 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 3: that you can do like hugging kissing other people, and 137 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 3: that's when your empathy and your trust and your feelings 138 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 3: of safety are really going to ramp up. 139 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 2: And that's a big deal. That's how you become attached. 140 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: Right And so evolutionarily speaking, caring for offspring is facilitated 141 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: by oxytocin in a lot of ways. There's a tremendous amount. Remember, 142 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:41,439 Speaker 1: oxytocin is like in part responsible for breast milk production, 143 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:45,239 Speaker 1: Like there's a huge increase of it during labor and delivery. 144 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: It's a big deal. But it also has to do 145 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,959 Speaker 1: with pair bonding with mates, the people who come together 146 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: and reproduce to create that offspring. To put it really biologically, 147 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 1: so there's a question it's not just granted science that 148 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: humans are pair bonding mammals like say prairie boles, which 149 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: we'll talk about in a minute, but as insofar as 150 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: we are, the oxytocin has a lot to do with that, 151 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: I think, is what I'm trying to say. So much 152 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: so that people call that the love drug. 153 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, Like if you google love drug, you'll 154 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 3: probably run across that pretty quickly. 155 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 2: That or ecstasy, yeah, which we'll also get to. So 156 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 2: one of the other big caveats. 157 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 3: And I imagine like every lecture that Sabilesque and Erp 158 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 3: probably give start off with them saying, by the way, 159 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 3: when we're talking about a love drug or a love potion, 160 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 3: we're not talking about what you've seen in movies and 161 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 3: stories and fairy tales. When like some losers attracted to 162 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 3: like the hottest person in their class and so they 163 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:56,959 Speaker 3: spike their drink and all of a sudden that person 164 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 3: thinks they're gorgeous and that you have a winning person sonality. 165 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:02,719 Speaker 2: They were like, we're not talking about that at all. 166 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 3: There's not a way to do that, and even if 167 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 3: there was, that's ethically not it's dangerous to even talk 168 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 3: about something like that. But what we're talking about is 169 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 3: people that are in relationships, who are in long term 170 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 3: partnerships or marriages to use, potentially use these drugs to 171 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,719 Speaker 3: give them some boosts when they need it to and 172 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 3: increase those feelings, not necessarily take them back to like 173 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 3: the puppy love stage, but not not do that, right. 174 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 1: I say, we take a break and we'll come back 175 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: and talk a little more about that. How about that. 176 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 2: Yes, it's great, We'll be right back. 177 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: Okay, Chuck. So where we left off, we're basically saying 178 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: that savillsqu and ERP and all of them are like, 179 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 1: we're not. You can't create love out of nothing at all, 180 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:20,839 Speaker 1: as air supply would have put it for these love drugs. 181 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 1: These again generally hypothetical theoretical love drugs, but you could 182 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: use them to help people who want to stay together 183 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:33,319 Speaker 1: but for one reason or another have lost the attachment 184 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: that they once had that could help people a lot. 185 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 1: And that's kind of what they're pointing to, is like 186 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,199 Speaker 1: the main use of something like a love drug if 187 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: we ever come up with one. 188 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, And they'll also say things like, hey, if you 189 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 3: think we sound like human monsters for trying to sort 190 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 3: of regulate or increase these good time feelings by the 191 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 3: use of drugs. Like, what do you think happens when 192 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 3: a married couple this been married for twenty five years 193 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 3: and are a little sick of each other they go 194 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 3: on a sweet, awesome vacation or go out and have 195 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 3: a couple of drinks together and at a nice dinner. 196 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 3: It's basically the same thing that we're talking about, is like, 197 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 3: those are things that people are accepting as a way 198 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 3: to do that in your marriage, and we're just talking 199 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 3: about doing it in a way that's just a little 200 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:24,079 Speaker 3: more dialed in and scientific. 201 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: Exactly. You can take a love drug or you can 202 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: go to PF Chang's your choice, but the result's gonna 203 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 1: be the same. You're gonna fall right back in love, 204 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: right Yeah, sure, so yeah, that is a question. Though 205 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: it's kind of like, Okay, well wait a minute, what 206 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 1: if we're not if humans aren't actually pair bonded, if 207 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 1: we're not evolutionarily meant to be monogamous, then it does 208 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 1: kind of seem to be at least counter evolutionary to 209 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: take a drug to stay together. I mean, what if 210 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,439 Speaker 1: that's like, you know, that's a signal that boredom is 211 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: a signal that you need to find a different relationship 212 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: or move on from the other one. I mean that 213 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: might be true in some cases, but there's also plenty 214 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: of cases too where people are not functionally able to 215 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: be attached as they want to be to their mates 216 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 1: in a relationship, say people with autism, people with ADHD. 217 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: They might want to be in that relationship, but they're 218 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: not bringing it like they need to. That's a good 219 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 1: example of how of supporting a monogamous relationship essentially, rather 220 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 1: than just forcing somebody to stay in by drugging them. 221 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. 222 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 3: And also like, even though this might fly in the 223 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,199 Speaker 3: face of evolution, because I think they even say that, 224 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 3: you know, it seems like evolutionarily, we're supposed to get together, 225 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 3: have a kid, and stick around together for about four 226 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 3: years to get that kid going in life, and then 227 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 3: that's it, evolutionarily speaking. But they're quick to point out like, 228 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 3: there are a lot of benefits to long term coupling. 229 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 3: You know, it's good for your mental health. You know 230 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 3: that studies have shown that it can be good for 231 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 3: your mental health and physical health and overall well being. 232 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 3: So and people are doing it anyway, you know, they're 233 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 3: not like trying to rewrite this. People are staying married anyway, 234 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 3: So they're saying, why don't we give people better tools 235 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 3: in a clinical setting is like part of couple's therapy, 236 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 3: so they can connect on a level that they haven't 237 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 3: in a while. 238 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, you can make a case like, evolutionarily speaking, we 239 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: should be beating up people who have different hair color 240 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: than us, but we don't do that because we've agreed 241 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: as modern society that's in the past. Evolutionarily speaking, you 242 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: can make the same thing for monogamous relationships even if 243 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: we didn't evolve to. Socially speaking, we've decided as humans 244 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 1: we're kind of into that kind of thing, So why 245 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: not use a drug to support that when needed? That's 246 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: what they're saying. That's what they're saying. 247 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 2: And also they're pointing out things. These guys make a 248 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 2: lot of good points, Yeah, have to say. 249 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 1: And also so does Livia by the way, who helped 250 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: us out with this one. 251 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, Lyvia weight in on some stuff and I thought 252 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 3: it was all like super valid and smart. But they 253 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 3: also point out things like, hey, you know, we're on 254 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 3: a bunch of anti love drugs, Like a lot of 255 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 3: these SSRIs that people are taking are lowering their sex drive, 256 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 3: maybe dampening their feelings and sort of dulling their feelings, 257 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 3: which is going to affect their partner. And the medical 258 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 3: community is like prescribing this stuff to individuals when people 259 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 3: aren't just individuals. They're in partnerships and marriages where the 260 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 3: whole family needs to be considered with stuff like this, 261 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 3: and the medical community doesn't look at it that way, 262 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 3: and they should. 263 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, And they're using the opportunity and discussing love drugs 264 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: to point out that we should be doing this with 265 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: other drugs that are already in wide use, like you said, SSRIs, 266 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: like drugs that impact the way that you interact with 267 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: other people for good or ill. This has to be 268 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: considered and it should be considered as part of the 269 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: love drug too, right. I think that's essentially what they're saying. 270 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, as well as like, hey, you don't just 271 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 3: have to use these drugs to treat a disease, Like 272 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 3: why not use these drugs for people that don't have 273 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 3: any disease to actually enhance their life in their romantic life. 274 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: That's a huge one too, because what they're essentially saying. 275 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: I watched a couple of lectures by Brian Erp and 276 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: he kind of really hit on this in one of them. 277 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 1: He was basically saying, like, we have this a society, 278 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: at least American society, we have this really weird dichotomous 279 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: view of drugs. Right, drugs that are made by pharmaceutical companies, 280 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: that are prescribed by doctors aoka, but we only use 281 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: those to treat maladies. When you start to use those 282 00:16:55,800 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: same drugs that are pharmaceuticals and prescribed to improve something 283 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: that we've already agreed is a good enough baseline, now 284 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:08,160 Speaker 1: you're entering into the realm of recreational drugs, and we 285 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 1: as a society are basically like, we're not cool with 286 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: recreational drugs. And that's what Sevillski and one of the 287 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: other points they're taking the opportunity to point. I was like, 288 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 1: that doesn't make any sense morally ethically. Why would you 289 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 1: not use something that can improve something that to make 290 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: you happier, to make you feel closer to your mate, 291 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: even if you're already doing good enough. And I think 292 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: that's a really good point too. But the other part 293 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,439 Speaker 1: of that point is there's a concern that we would 294 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:40,959 Speaker 1: if we start creating love drugs. Then, as a society, 295 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 1: we would expect pharmaceutical companies to come up with some 296 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: malady that these need to treat or else they're not 297 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: going to go anywhere, So we need to come up 298 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: with something like hypo lovia or something like that, where 299 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: we're just not that good at loving, so we need 300 00:17:57,880 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: these pills. And now all of a sudden we have 301 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 1: late like you're not very good at loving. There's a 302 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: new label for somebody, just because we can't be like 303 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: this in and of itself is a good thing. We 304 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: don't have to medicalize it. 305 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, don't take love a cell if you have a 306 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 3: bad reaction to love a cell. 307 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: That's right. 308 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,679 Speaker 2: That's a little inside joke for our live show fans, right. 309 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, which we'll be releasing that not too 310 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: far from now, I would guess. 311 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, probably end of the year ish fall, late. 312 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: Fall, let's see, let's see yeah, late fall. 313 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 3: All right, So you know what kind of drugs are 314 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 3: we talking about? You know, who knows what's coming down 315 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 3: the line. If we're looking at what's in front of 316 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 3: us right now, we can talk about a few things 317 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 3: we've already talked about. Booze alcohol is a drug, and 318 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 3: alcohol is a drug that has already used for this. 319 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 3: They use this, Sabelescu and you know, and use this 320 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 3: as an example of like the potential, like, hey, someone, 321 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 3: it's fine if someone goes out and has a couple 322 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 3: of drinks on a first date to sort of relax 323 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 3: them and make them a little more socially maybe less awkward, 324 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 3: if that's how they might feel. And you know, again 325 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 3: they're saying, like this is what we're talking about. 326 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 2: We're already doing it with booze. 327 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that. Yeah, that's a great smart thing 328 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:17,919 Speaker 1: to point out, because it's like, oh, okay, well you 329 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: just disarmed me, savillsqu that's a point to you. They 330 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: also point out that we have sex drugs in rock 331 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:30,919 Speaker 1: and roll, like viagra is a sex drug taking testosterone 332 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,639 Speaker 1: low t Ask Frank what's his name, He'll tell you 333 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: the ladies are gonna like it too. These are libido 334 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 1: boosting chemicals or erection producing chemicals, and the point of 335 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: them is to have more or better sex. Right, And 336 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: so Savillsque and ERP and their ilk aren't saying like 337 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 1: that's a love drug. They're saying these drugs can help 338 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,199 Speaker 1: facilitate the things that produce feelings of love, say, like 339 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: the release of oxytocin that comes from sex, so indirectly tho, 340 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: those are already love drugs that are on the market. 341 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 2: Wait, who's Frank so and so. 342 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 1: Frank he's a Hall of Fame MLB slugger from the 343 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 1: nineties maybe early two thousands. 344 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 2: Oh oh, Frank Thomas. 345 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,160 Speaker 1: Yes, he does those ads with Doug Flutie. 346 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I've seen those. I forgot about those. 347 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 1: And he does that creepy like she's gonna love it too. 348 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a little creepy, but also like, well they 349 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 3: got paid for those. 350 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 2: Never mind. Yeah, I was gonna say good for them 351 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 2: for like, you know, for taking the mantle of men 352 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 2: with low TI, but uh. 353 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 3: So, good for them. So you mentioned prairie vols earlier. 354 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 3: Prairie vols are are great little rascals. They're good comps 355 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 3: for human behaviors when it comes to mating and bonding 356 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 3: and stuff like that. They bond in ways that are 357 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 3: kind of like us in our marriages. So they bond 358 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 3: initially too because of sex, because that oxytocin is released, 359 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 3: kind of like we do. When they're bonded, they like 360 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 3: to spend time with one another. They nest and make 361 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,680 Speaker 3: homes together, they care for their offspring together, they work together. 362 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,439 Speaker 1: They go to the farmers market together. 363 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:19,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, they go to the farmer's market. 364 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 3: They buy those light up roses at traffic stops, people 365 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 3: buy those. 366 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: Sure, I thought it was just some sort of ploy 367 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 1: for something else. 368 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 3: Like there's you know, a kilo of cocaine in the 369 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 3: bottom of that bucket, right, or. 370 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 1: They want you to like come meet their friend the leader. 371 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, exactly. 372 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 3: Well maybe this I've never bought them, but they've done 373 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 3: lab experiments where they have been ministered oxytocin to females 374 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 3: and then the vasopressin for the males, and it caused 375 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 3: them to bond just like they would if they had mate. 376 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 3: It without mating, and if they block those chemicals, they 377 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,199 Speaker 3: don't form the bonds. So it's kind of you know, 378 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 3: it's not direct, but it's kind of like sitting right 379 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 3: there saying hello, this works. 380 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean again, prairie rolls are definitely pair 381 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: bonded species, and humans aren't necessarily, But the fact that 382 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: all of those brain chemicals do the same things to 383 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: them that they appear to do to us, that's pretty 384 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: it is a useful model for sure. And oxytocin again, 385 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: we're going to keep hitting that because there's a good 386 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 1: reason why people call it the love drug. And there's 387 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 1: already available on the market intra nasally taken like one 388 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: of those nasal sprays that you squeeze. It's oxytocin. It's 389 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,920 Speaker 1: available in that form, and it shouldn't cross the blood 390 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 1: brain barrier, but it does something. It actually does have 391 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,719 Speaker 1: an effect. Studies have shown like this actually has an 392 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 1: oxytocin like effect on the people who use it. They 393 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: think maybe if it doesn't actually cross the blood brain barrier, 394 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 1: just raises the general level of the oxytocin in your system. 395 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 1: Who knows. But from that people have proposed uses of 396 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 1: this stuff that's already on the market in ways that 397 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 1: are not quite love but more kind of tap into 398 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 1: the idea that you can build trust with somebody through 399 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: oxytocin and that if you dose them with that, they 400 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 1: will have to trust you. 401 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,639 Speaker 3: And here's the other thing about oxytocin is there have 402 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,199 Speaker 3: been a lot of studies on this stuff, kind of 403 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 3: like the early two thousands is when all this got 404 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 3: heavily researched. You know, the early beginning of it, and 405 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 3: a lot of those results were, you know, pretty astounding, 406 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,160 Speaker 3: but a lot of those studies also can't be replicated now, 407 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 3: so you know, experts are now saying, like, hey, all 408 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,360 Speaker 3: those all those early studies about oxytocin, we really need 409 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 3: to kind of pump our brakes a little bit, not 410 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 3: saying completely discount it, but like let's just do more research. 411 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and like some of those some of those uses 412 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: that were proposed that go beyond love. There was an 413 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: Air Force major named David Dethiths who in two thousand 414 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: and seven roe to Master's thesis on using oxytocin spray 415 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: for things like hostage negotiation and riot control to establish 416 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: immediate like trust with the police or the military or whatever. 417 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: And of course all of this is theoretical, but that's 418 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 1: exactly what Savelesque and ERP and the people that are 419 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,159 Speaker 1: with them are trying to do. They're saying, like, this 420 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 1: stuff could be coming and we need to talk about 421 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: like how it's fraught and how it could be useful. 422 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: And that's a good example of how it's fraught. You 423 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,920 Speaker 1: don't want people controlling you or making you trust them, 424 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 1: even though you probably shouldn't just because they've dosed you 425 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: with oxytocin, if that ever really becomes possible. 426 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, sablesco will also say, like, you know, 427 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 3: it seems to help out in some positive ways, but 428 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 3: also some negative ways, and experts will chime in and say, well, yeah, 429 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 3: but in a very limited way, like introducing this, you know, 430 00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,199 Speaker 3: in a not a fake way. But I guess what 431 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 3: would it be called x genous way to your body. 432 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 3: Just go out and take a hike and do some exercising, 433 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,120 Speaker 3: or give someone a hug. And that's about the same 434 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 3: effect that you're you're going to be getting by introducing it, 435 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 3: you know, exogenous genously. 436 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, exogynously. 437 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 2: I like that. I like it the first time. 438 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: I kind of do too, actually, But the great thing 439 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 1: about a intrannasal oxytocin sprays you don't have to give somebody. 440 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 2: A hug, right exactly. 441 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 1: And then also MDMA we said, is something that comes 442 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: up a lot when you search love drug and for 443 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: good reason too. I mean, it does some wacky stuff 444 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 1: to your brain chemistry, including massive releases of oxytocin, dopamine, neuropinephrine, cortisol, serotonin, 445 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: all the stuff that Helen Fisher was hammering, create lust, 446 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 1: romantic love, attachment, all that stuff gets released to varying 447 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 1: degrees when you take MDMA. It also makes you grow 448 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 1: your teeth like crazy. And so people have said, okay, 449 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: this could conceivably be used therapeutically in some form, and 450 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: especially before it was outlawed in nineteen eighty five, people 451 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: were already studying it like that. They were using it 452 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: in therapeutic settings like couple's therapy. 453 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. 454 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 3: And then when studies come out to say, you know, 455 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 3: when you take MDNA, you're more connected, you're more loving 456 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 3: to people, There's a greater bond when it comes to 457 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 3: even like casual conversations. They it seemed like everything seems 458 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 3: more meaningful. Someone might also say, yeah, but the same 459 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 3: thing happens when you take methmphetamine. It's just impacting instead 460 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 3: of oxytocin, it's impacting dopamine and nora epinephrine. And like 461 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 3: you said, since eighty five, DNA MDMA sorry, has been 462 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 3: banned for study in therapeutics, but it is It is 463 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 3: still used in different countries a lot of times with 464 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 3: people at PTSD diagnoses and in couple's therapy to pretty 465 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:07,360 Speaker 3: great effect. 466 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was reading there's some couple's therapists, kind of 467 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: rogue couples therapists who are like, I can't tell you 468 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: to go buy MDMA, and I certainly can't tell you 469 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: where to go buy it, but I can tell you 470 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 1: that if you have it on you and you show 471 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 1: up to this particular place, we're going to be having 472 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 1: a retreat where you and your wife would be able 473 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: to take this in a therapeutic setting. So people are 474 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 1: still trying it, and anecdotally they report, especially compared to methamphetamine, 475 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: there's a lasting effect of like the attachment that can 476 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: be produced by MDMA that lasts beyond, you know, the 477 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,119 Speaker 1: experience of being on MDMA. So it could conceivably be 478 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 1: used as such. But I think if there's you know, 479 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: if we can isolate oxytocin and you can use that, 480 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 1: I would guess we were probably going to go more 481 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:55,400 Speaker 1: in that direction than MDMA. 482 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 3: And if you have cash, you might see my office 483 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 3: manager in the parking lot. 484 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know anything about it. 485 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:09,399 Speaker 1: Right, Sharky was that the office manager? Yeah, with loads 486 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 1: of m d m A. Let's take our second break 487 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:13,919 Speaker 1: and we'll come back and talk about the opposite of this. 488 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: How about that? 489 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 2: Let's do it all right? 490 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 3: So back to Sabelescu and herb It's fun to say, 491 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 3: what kind of singing do are they? 492 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 2: Oh, let's see. 493 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 1: I think one of them plays the organ and the 494 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 1: other one plays the saxophone. Really low key, mellow stuff. 495 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 2: Okay, that sounds pretty good. Okay, all right. 496 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 3: So another thing that they propose, like you mentioned before, 497 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 3: the break is the opposite of that. Maybe some drugs 498 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 3: that help you get away from the feeling of love. 499 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 3: Let's say you're in a relationship that is toxic or complicated, 500 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 3: or even abusive, and you have a hard time leaving 501 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,479 Speaker 3: because you have this attachment that you just can't let 502 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 3: go of to your abuser or to your toxic friend 503 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 3: or loved one. And maybe if you are stuck in 504 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 3: that loop, we can design drugs to give you the. 505 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 2: Courage to get out of that. 506 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. I also saw in one of those lectures that 507 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: gave some other examples of how this could be useful 508 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: anti love drug. Essentially, if you're a pedophile seeking help achievement, 509 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 1: it could be useful for that. If you are involved 510 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 1: in an incestuous relationship, you don't want to be it 511 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: could be helpful for that. If you're committing adultery and 512 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,479 Speaker 1: you love the person, but you really love your spouse 513 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: even more, it could be useful for that. And then lastly, 514 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 1: if you are selling those electric roses on the side 515 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 1: of the road, it can help you stop loving your 516 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: cult leader as well. So there's a lot of other 517 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: uses for it too that you just wouldn't think of, 518 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 1: But when you do think of it, you're like, actually, 519 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: it would be great to have a drug for those 520 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: people that need that kind of help. And one of 521 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: the other great things about this is that there's no 522 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: real downside to that. Like there's a there's a lot 523 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: of objections as we'll see to the idea of creating love, 524 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: but how can you object to breaking harmful love? There's 525 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 1: really no problem with that. That's kind of like, that's 526 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 1: probably the best or least objectionable use of a drug 527 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: that has to do with an effect on love, you. 528 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 3: Know, Yeah, for sure, it's probably no surprise that there's 529 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 3: been a lot of criticism about all of this stuff. 530 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 3: That was a German ethicist named Savin Niom in twenty 531 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 3: fourteen that got wind of what Sabellascu and urp're doing. 532 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 2: And they said, you know. 533 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 3: What, I don't even know if this counts if it's 534 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 3: essentially synthetic, Like, it's not, it's not real. It's not 535 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 3: these innate characteristics that people develop in a natural, organic way. 536 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 3: It's it's a chemically mediated sort of thing that you're designing. 537 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you could see him being like, Okay, that's 538 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: a that's a pretty obvious objection, but he laid it 539 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 1: out pretty well and essentially said, like what this focus 540 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 1: is on is you know all of the things that 541 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: a loving attachment can produce, like health and lower depression, 542 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: and you know, a stable environment for the kids, Like 543 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 1: those are the goods that you guys are focusing on. 544 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 1: What if we stop looking at love like that and 545 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 1: look at it as love is intrance good in and 546 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: of itself. It doesn't matter what other great effects it has. 547 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 1: Love itself is good enough. Then if you're producing that chemically, 548 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 1: even though you're creating all of these great side effects 549 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 1: like stability in the house or you know, just good times, 550 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: it's still it's not love. You can't say that it's 551 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: it's love. That's that's ultimately what his objection is. 552 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's another guy from cal State, a guy named 553 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 3: Jacob Blair, another philosopher who talk about you know, he 554 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 3: just imagines two people in a relationship, and he's saying, well, 555 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 3: here's the thing, though, is one's love for the other 556 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 3: doesn't depend on the actual true characteristics of that person 557 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 3: and like who they really are. And like, I hear 558 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 3: what you're saying, urb and sablesco about like, yeah, but 559 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 3: you know, romantic dinners it's the same thing, and alcohol 560 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 3: is the same thing. But he argues back that, like, yeah, 561 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,719 Speaker 3: but you can't go to romantic dinners every night and 562 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 3: just have three or four drinks every night to keep 563 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 3: that you know, quote unquote genuine love going. 564 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 2: It's not like a good comp. 565 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: Who can afford to go to PF Chang's every single night. 566 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: Not me, man, nobody, not even the owner PF Chang 567 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: himself couldn't afford that. So there's another objection to what 568 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: Jacob Blair and saven Niholm were saying in defense of 569 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 1: Sevillscue and by a Montreal ethicist named Heishim or Heikim 570 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: Narr Hichim Narr. Hei Chim Narr argues that even if 571 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 1: you're just producing something that's not actual love, those side 572 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: effects that are good are could be enough to keep 573 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: you around so that you are still experiencing all the 574 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 1: stuff that that love produces. And so if it's not 575 00:33:54,600 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 1: actual love, you could still conceivably appreciate the other person 576 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: and characteristics that make you love them. And so the 577 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: whole thing kind of becomes hurly burley at that point. 578 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 1: And really, what's the problem. Are you guys just being 579 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 1: philosophers being philosophers, I think is what Nar was saying. 580 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's there's definitely a lot of that for everybody 581 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 3: who is a philosopher, you know. 582 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, that's just the nature of the beast. 583 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: So really they love to argue and put up weird 584 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 1: situations to prove their point. 585 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's just the deal. 586 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 3: There's a bioethicist named Peter Harrison Kelly who went about 587 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,439 Speaker 3: it and arguing it in a little bit different way, 588 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 3: which is the notion of something like oxytocin being a 589 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 3: love drug. You know, it all depends on this notion 590 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 3: that that attachment is a feeling, like it's a drive 591 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 3: that you have. And he said, I don't think it's 592 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 3: that that that that's the case. Actually, it's not like, Uh, 593 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 3: you don't had this drive to constantly feel this way 594 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 3: toward a person, Like you have these hormones that may 595 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 3: encourage that, but you already have to have that attachment 596 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 3: in place to begin with. But I mean, it seems 597 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,760 Speaker 3: like that's kind of what RB and Sabelescu are saying though, right. 598 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't one hundred percent understand what the issue 599 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 1: that Harrison Kelly was raising was that Urp and sablesk 600 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 1: you didn't agree with like you were saying, like they're 601 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 1: saying like, yeah, you can't create this out of the blue, 602 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 1: but you can support it. I guess what he was 603 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 1: saying is more he disagrees with Helen Fisher's idea, like 604 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,439 Speaker 1: you were saying that it's a drive, like you can't 605 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,319 Speaker 1: compare attachment to hunger, Like attachment is its own thing, 606 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: it's separate from all that. So you're not boosting attachment. 607 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,360 Speaker 1: You're boosting the trappings of attachment. The feelings that you 608 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 1: get from attachment are being boosted, But don't make any 609 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 1: mistake that you're actually boosting attachment itself. Yeah, is what 610 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 1: he's saying, That it's it's more than just some sort 611 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: of biochemical dribe so yeah, in a way, he's certainly 612 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,479 Speaker 1: arguing and at the same time supporting their point. 613 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 3: I think, yeah, I think, I think I agree, that's 614 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,359 Speaker 3: exactly what you're saying. And then you know, of course 615 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 3: we have to talk finally about the fact that you know, 616 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 3: these kind of things in the wrong hands. You know, 617 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 3: we've talked about spiking a drink or something like that 618 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,320 Speaker 3: being just an awful thing to do. 619 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 2: Conversion therapy. 620 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 3: I could definitely see this getting into the hands of 621 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 3: people who think they could use it to convert lg 622 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 3: BTQ people like, you know, hey, let's just go put. 623 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 2: Two people in a room. 624 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 3: Together of you know, put a man and a woman 625 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 3: there together and give them this drug and see if 626 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 3: that cures them. 627 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 1: That kind of thing exactly. Yeah, there's a lot of 628 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 1: ways that it can be misused, and I think Erp 629 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,279 Speaker 1: and Seveleski were criticized as basically saying, like, no, you 630 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 1: just make sure that you regulate them and make sure 631 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 1: that the that they're prescribed correctly, and they were definitely 632 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 1: called out as naive for suggesting that that's the only 633 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:03,840 Speaker 1: way that they would be used. So, yeah, that is 634 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,240 Speaker 1: definitely something that makes it fraud for sure, I agree, fraud. 635 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: You got anything else about love drugs coming soon? Now? 636 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 2: It seems like it's coming soon in some way or another. 637 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,040 Speaker 1: Yep, for sure. And if you want to know more 638 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 1: about love drugs, just wait, I guess, and see what 639 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,360 Speaker 1: happens and see if you can get your doctor to 640 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,479 Speaker 1: prescribe them. And in the meantime, it's time for listener mail. 641 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm gonna call this. 642 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 3: I'm glad I got this email because I've been getting 643 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 3: this wrong all these years. What with this song title? 644 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 1: Okay? 645 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:38,360 Speaker 2: Or I guess the singer? 646 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,920 Speaker 3: Hey, guys, listen to the episode on Share one of 647 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 3: you mentioned and it was me Chuck working at retail 648 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 3: at Christmas. It was at the gap and repeatedly hearing 649 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:52,240 Speaker 3: the song Santa's Got a brand New Bag by James Taylor, 650 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 3: which you know you corrected me in the moment. Obviously 651 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 3: it's James Brown, he said. James Brown is also incorrect. 652 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,480 Speaker 3: The song is clear and homage to James Brown. It 653 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 3: is actually by a bunch of white kids from Detroit 654 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 3: called Bob Seger, and the last heard, Oh wow, yes 655 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:09,920 Speaker 3: that Bob Seger. 656 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 2: He says. 657 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,400 Speaker 3: The title is socket to me Sanna, and it was 658 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:17,680 Speaker 3: released in nineteen sixty six on the Cameo Parkway Records label, 659 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 3: Probably my favorite Christmas song. In twenty eighteen, in anthology 660 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 3: of Last Heard Singles from sixty six to sixty seven 661 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 3: was released I believe the first time they've been compiled 662 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,839 Speaker 3: in one place. This is also an unrelated R and 663 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 3: B funk song. Oh, there is also an unrelated R 664 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 3: and B funk song called Socket to Him Sanna by 665 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 3: Joe Chanal circus sixty eight. That's worth a listen. And 666 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 3: of course James Brown does have a Christmas album with 667 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,359 Speaker 3: some pretty great tunes, and he died on Christmas Day. 668 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,120 Speaker 1: I didn't know thousand and six. Yeah, yeah, wow, that 669 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 1: are some deep cuts. Who is that? 670 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 3: I didn't even bother looking at any of this stuff up, 671 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 3: So I hope Kevin Schneider is right. He certainly comes 672 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 3: across as confidence, so I believed every word. 673 00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,759 Speaker 1: Yep, same here, Kevin. Thank you for mesmerizing us with 674 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 1: your musical novel. And if you want to be like 675 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,279 Speaker 1: Kevin and mesmerize us, take your best shot. You can 676 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 1: send it off to Stuff Podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. 677 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 3: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio for 678 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,879 Speaker 3: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 679 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:20,800 Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.