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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm welcome to Steffan

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Speaker 1: Never Told You prodictre of iHeart Radio, and today we

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Speaker 1: are once again so happy to be joined for the

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Speaker 1: first time in the new Year by the fabulous, the

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Speaker 1: fantastic Bridget Todd.

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Speaker 2: Welcome Bridget, Thanks for having me. Happy New Year.

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Speaker 3: This is my first, I think my first podcast recording

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Speaker 3: of twenty twenty six. So if I sound a little rusty,

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Speaker 3: that's what's going on.

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Speaker 1: You're in good company. You're in good company. And also,

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Speaker 1: as we were joking about in that sad way before

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Speaker 1: we started recording, you picked a doozy of a topic

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Speaker 1: to come out swinging with, which we'll get into more

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Speaker 1: in a second. But how have you been, Bridget, How

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Speaker 1: has the New Year been? Etc?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the New Year has been.

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Speaker 3: I know how if other folks are feeling this, it's

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Speaker 3: just still been a little bit of a lot. Like

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Speaker 3: I don't know, I am someone who I think I've

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Speaker 3: said this on this show before. I like New Year.

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Speaker 3: I like all the sort of ra rah this year

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Speaker 3: is gonna be different, fresh start. That stuff really works

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Speaker 3: on me. Even I didn't do that this year. I

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Speaker 3: didn't even buy a planner and a bunch of pens

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Speaker 3: to like sit and rot in my tone, I know

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Speaker 3: you love pens. I love buying pens I won't use,

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Speaker 3: and buying a planner I'll use for a week and

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Speaker 3: then forget about.

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Speaker 2: I didn't even do that.

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Speaker 4: That makes me sad.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's we were. We had an episode on this recently.

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Speaker 1: I don't think I said this in the episode though,

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Speaker 1: but I I'm very meticulous about my calendar and planning

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Speaker 1: and I have not even updated my calendar to January.

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Speaker 1: I I have made a note to do it today.

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Speaker 1: We shall see if it happens. But yeah, it's just

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Speaker 1: felt something off or something strange about the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't feel like a new year to me. It

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Speaker 1: just blurs all together. I'm not sure, but maybe the

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Speaker 1: calendar will help me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's how I'm feeling too. About Where did you

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Speaker 3: put that note?

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Speaker 1: If not on a calendar, I have a little sticky

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Speaker 1: digital sticky note on my desktop.

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Speaker 2: Oh you better'll think it out.

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Speaker 1: I mean I don't think so, but I do have

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Speaker 1: backup plans. What about you, Samantha.

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Speaker 2: That is amazing. Yeah, how's your new year? Sam?

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Speaker 4: Again, I think that's why I'm being silent because I'm like, I.

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Speaker 2: Don't, don't.

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Speaker 4: We're here, We've made it to this year. So you know,

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Speaker 4: as the older generation would say, blessed to be around

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Speaker 4: for another year. You know, the alternative is dark. But

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Speaker 4: these reports have gotten me. That's the words I think.

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Speaker 4: I like everything. You know, we talk about the millennial freeze,

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Speaker 4: the h the reactions that everyone is having Millennials slash

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Speaker 4: uh for me, excellennial who have gone through all of

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Speaker 4: the chaos in our lifetimes and then coming in having

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Speaker 4: that small slither of hope will be like, yeah, maybe

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Speaker 4: this will be a better year, and then the year happens,

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Speaker 4: you're like, maybe it's going to be the same. Maybe

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Speaker 4: it's just going to be the same.

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Speaker 2: So I think part of it for me, I felt

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Speaker 2: the exact same thing.

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Speaker 3: And I think part of it for me was that,

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Speaker 3: you know, over the over the holidays, you're sometimes you're families,

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Speaker 3: you're not checking the news as much. When I checked

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Speaker 3: back in, I was like, oh, let's see what's going

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Speaker 3: on in the world.

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Speaker 2: The world was on fire.

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Speaker 3: It felt like, oh, so it's sort of hard to

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Speaker 3: start the new year on a hopeful note, feeling like

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Speaker 3: we might have a chance for stability and feeling a

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Speaker 3: little bit better than being like, oh, just kidding, and

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Speaker 3: and it's gone right.

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Speaker 4: Like I feel like for a little while we had

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Speaker 4: the main hope of being like, we're the bad guys,

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Speaker 4: but we're not the absolute main villain. And as we

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Speaker 4: see things are like, oh, we've become the main villain,

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Speaker 4: like international main villain. Oh that's interesting, that's the new Ones.

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Speaker 2: And we are.

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Speaker 4: Anyway, That's how I'm doing. And I laugh, and we

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Speaker 4: are in this episode and I'm so glad we get

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Speaker 4: to be educated and distracted by you today.

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Speaker 3: Yes, well I hope that's I don't know if it's

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Speaker 3: going to make anybody feel happier about our situation, but

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Speaker 3: you know, sometimes you just have to have a clear

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Speaker 3: eyed understanding of what's happening and just deal with it.

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Speaker 4: Just deal with it.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And it is really important that we talk about it.

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Speaker 1: And Samantha and I have been discussing how we've noticed

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Speaker 1: a real ramp up in very very destructive online behaviors

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Speaker 1: and so as difficult as a conversation like this is,

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Speaker 1: we do need to talk about it. So, yes, what

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Speaker 1: are we discussing today?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I just have to give a warning because

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Speaker 3: the whole conversation is going to be pretty grim and

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Speaker 3: pretty dark. So just a trigger warning upfront. But I'm sure,

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Speaker 3: as we all know by now, we're in a good poet,

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Speaker 3: mother wife. She was shot and killed by ice in Minnesota,

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Speaker 3: right and I watched the video was horrifying. The response

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Speaker 3: from the administration has been also predictably horrifying. The conversation

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Speaker 3: online probably predictably has been just a wash in lies

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Speaker 3: and distortions about both Good and then what happened to her.

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Speaker 2: All of these things, I feel, we're.

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Speaker 3: Pretty at this point are pretty predictable when this kind

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Speaker 3: of thing happens. Unfortunately, however, something that I did not

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Speaker 3: and could not predict, and maybe I should have, is

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Speaker 3: that when I was scrolling X, I saw a screenshot

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Speaker 3: from the video of Good being shot and killed. So

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Speaker 3: it's a video of her, an image of her dead

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Speaker 3: body covered in blood, and somebody under the image asking

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Speaker 3: GROC to generate an AI version of that image that

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Speaker 3: puts her in a bikini. And guess what, GROC complied

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Speaker 3: and generated an AI image of Good dead, covered in blood,

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Speaker 3: but wearing an AI generated bikini. And do you know

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Speaker 3: those things that you see where you're like, that's it.

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Speaker 3: I have hit my limit. This is that's enough Internet

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Speaker 3: for me. I genuinely had to log off and go

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Speaker 3: for a walk outside because something about that I think

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Speaker 3: just I don't have the words for that kind of

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Speaker 3: depravity that it showed, like it just really I'm not

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Speaker 3: bummed out by a lot on the Internet these days,

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Speaker 3: but this really bummed me out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that legitimately unders standably so that it is incredibly upsetting.

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Speaker 3: And I'm sorry to say that this is not even

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Speaker 3: an isolated thing because when you go to X and

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Speaker 3: I should say, up off the top, I'm not really

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Speaker 3: spending a lot of time on X. I still have

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Speaker 3: an account there, but when you go to my account,

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Speaker 3: it says please see pen tweet, and then the pen

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Speaker 3: tweet is like, I'm not on X, so please don't

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Speaker 3: send me anything here because I'm not gonna see it.

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Speaker 3: But if you were to go to X and you

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Speaker 3: type in put her or make her, you will see

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Speaker 3: how many creeps are posting under images on the platform

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Speaker 3: of women and children, in some cases asking groc x

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Speaker 3: is ai to generate that person in a bikini or

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Speaker 3: some otherwise sexually suggestive thing or pose like sometimes they

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Speaker 3: will ask, oh, make this person look heavily pregnant, like

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Speaker 3: things like that. Some of the things I've seen in

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Speaker 3: the last few weeks are things like Groc being asked

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Speaker 3: to undress an image of a fourteen year old actress

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Speaker 3: on the platform, which Groc did. I think I think

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Speaker 3: it's important to say up top that we were talking

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Speaker 3: about non consensual AI generated sexualized images of women and girls. However,

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Speaker 3: like that Renee Good photo I talked about earlier, it's

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Speaker 3: also just like dark. It's not it would be bad

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Speaker 3: enough if we were talking about just sexualized images of

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Speaker 3: women and girls without their consent, that's bad enough.

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Speaker 2: We're talking about like.

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Speaker 3: Dark, hateful, sexualized images of women and kids. Right like

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Speaker 3: Groc accepted a prompt to add a swastika bikini to

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Speaker 3: a photo of a Holocaust survivor, it will, you know,

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Speaker 3: accept prompts to make women look like they've been beaten up,

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Speaker 3: things like that, Like, not just regular sexualized images which

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Speaker 3: are already bad, much darker, weirder, more depraved stuff.

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Speaker 4: I'm just the linking of this type of content and

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Speaker 4: the usage of AI. Once again, when we had our

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Speaker 4: last episode with you. We talked about all of these

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Speaker 4: things inevitably being a part of the in cell red

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Speaker 4: pill community. It just this is an action as we

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Speaker 4: are watching it unfold, and people actually not having obviously

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Speaker 4: for those of us who know the consequences and what

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Speaker 4: this is showing evidence of, and any person of good

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Speaker 4: human humanity understands that this is gross but not really

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Speaker 4: paying attention of understanding where this is coming from, and

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Speaker 4: the normalization of accepting things like this like this is alarming,

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Speaker 4: like nauseatingly alarming.

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Speaker 2: You really put it so well.

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Speaker 3: I think it's not just that this kind of thing exists,

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Speaker 3: because okay, it's the Internet. Of course, there's dark corners

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Speaker 3: whe people are doing dark things. X is one of

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Speaker 3: our largest social media platforms. It's not you know, I'm

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Speaker 3: not there and a lot of people have left, but

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Speaker 3: it's not a niche platform. There's still lots and lots

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Speaker 3: of people who show up there. We're not talking about

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Speaker 3: on alternate of space like a telegram. This is one

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Speaker 3: of our biggest communications platforms, and this is happening openly

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Speaker 3: and publicly, and in a lot of cases, the person

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Speaker 3: who runs that platform, Elon Musk, is laughing about it.

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Speaker 3: Joking about it, seemingly celebrating it. And so I'm glad

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Speaker 3: that you brought that up. That it's not just that

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Speaker 3: this is occurring, it's the normalization and the way that

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Speaker 3: it is being tolerated in our mainstream online spaces. And

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Speaker 3: really it's not just what's happening on X because Grock

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Speaker 3: is also available as a standalone app in addition to

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Speaker 3: being something that you could find on X, And as

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Speaker 3: the Outlet Indicator points out, the standalone Grock app has

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Speaker 3: been used to generate sexual imagery of kids aged eleven

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Speaker 3: to thirteen.

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Speaker 2: This is according to the Internet Watch Foundation. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's just.

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Speaker 3: A gross situation all around.

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Speaker 1: And for any of our listeners who might be blissfully

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Speaker 1: unaware what is groc Bridget.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad that you asked.

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Speaker 3: So for folks who don't know, or maybe you've left

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Speaker 3: the platform before Grock became a thing like me, Groc

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Speaker 3: is x's AI chatbot. But something to know about Groc

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Speaker 3: is that Groc is with intention different than other chatbots

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Speaker 3: that you might be familiar with, like chat geet BT

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Speaker 3: or Claude, because Groc has been designed to basically be

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Speaker 3: like an edge lord chatbot there's no other real way

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Speaker 3: to put it. Because we know Elon Musk is a

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Speaker 3: loser creep. Groc has basically been been designed for loser

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Speaker 3: creeps by loser creeps, right, and so it is absolutely

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Speaker 3: true that other chatbots like chat Gept and Claude absolutely

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Speaker 3: have their issues. Groc, however, is distinct for being uniquely

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Speaker 3: awful in ways that are intent to really built in

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Speaker 3: for when people use it. And I guess I wanted

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Speaker 3: to start with Groc because folks might have seen headlines

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Speaker 3: that say some version of Groc has apologized for generating

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Speaker 3: sexualized images of young girls, and I wanted to start

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Speaker 3: there because I just want to make it very clear.

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Speaker 3: I didn't know that this was something that needed clarifying,

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Speaker 3: but just in case it does, Groc is not sentient.

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Speaker 3: Grek is not a human. Groc is technology. Groc's not

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Speaker 3: a person. So Groc doesn't do anything. Humans like Elon

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Speaker 3: Musk built Groc, They trained Groc, they run it as

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Speaker 3: a commercial service, and they make it available for other

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Speaker 3: humans to do things with. And right now, what those

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Speaker 3: humans are doing with Groc is undressing women and children

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Speaker 3: without their consent to create sexualized images, also known as

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Speaker 3: here in the United States crimes criminal activity.

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Speaker 4: And as a reminder, when Musk he literally kind of

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Speaker 4: went on a platform about making sure to get c

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Speaker 4: SAM or child sexual expectation content off and protecting the kids.

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Speaker 2: By the way.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I don't remember if I talked about this

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Speaker 3: with you all or not, but that one of his

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Speaker 3: big but one of the big things that he did

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Speaker 3: a lot of grand standing about was that we're gonna

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Speaker 3: wipe child sexual assault material off the platform.

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Speaker 2: And then he really didn't do that at all.

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Speaker 3: Right, Like, one of the first things that he did

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Speaker 3: when taking over Twitter was to fire I think eighty

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Speaker 3: percent of the staff responsible for building tools that look

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Speaker 3: for and combat and stamp out sexualized material involving children.

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Speaker 2: And so yeah, he sure didn't, but he sure loves to.

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Speaker 3: I mean, he doesn't really grandstand about it that much anymore,

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Speaker 3: because anymore, how could you? But yeah, that was his

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Speaker 3: tenure at Twitter began with a lot of grand standing

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Speaker 3: and then doing nothing.

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Speaker 4: Right. He literally did this because of the election. And

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Speaker 4: as we know, the right wing love to scream about

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Speaker 4: protecting children, protecting women, protecting babies, but not in actuality.

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Speaker 4: They just love that sentiment and it works for me,

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Speaker 4: and I've talked about this, We've talked about this on

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Speaker 4: the show often how it does hone in on women, specifically,

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Speaker 4: making sure if you don't stand for these things, then

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Speaker 4: you are a monster that hates children, that wants to

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Speaker 4: kill all children. And eight children by the way, that

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Speaker 4: was also you know, we love the pizza Gate, which

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Speaker 4: still happens, we know, but that was that beginning. And

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Speaker 4: then once Grok was released, if I remember correctly, it

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Speaker 4: actually worked okay in that it would call out misinformation,

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Speaker 4: but when the misinformation was correcting the far right, I mean,

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Speaker 4: they were like, oh no, no, I got to fix this.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's exactly what happened. So well put for folks

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Speaker 3: might remember that Groc was not being biased enough and

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Speaker 3: was saying things that were we know to be true,

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Speaker 3: and then Elon Musk himself stepped in and said no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 3: I got We're working to make GROC less woke that

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Speaker 3: at that point Grok started calling itself Mecha Hitler went

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Speaker 3: down a.

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Speaker 2: Real weird rabbit hole on that one. Uh yeah, but

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Speaker 2: that is exactly what happened.

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Speaker 4: I just remember this. And then, as we know, since then,

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Speaker 4: all of those green standing outside of making sure that

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Speaker 4: the right is not censored because you know, we don't

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Speaker 4: want that anything else. It seems like, yeah, they have

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Speaker 4: kind of been the beginning of all of this nastiness.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm glad that you said that, because I

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Speaker 3: want to back up a little bit, because you know,

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Speaker 3: we're talking today about GROC rightly so, but it didn't

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Speaker 3: really start with Groc. Like X has been a hotbed

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Speaker 3: of this kind of material for a while. Like folks

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Speaker 3: might recall that the teenage Marvel star Social Gomez was

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Speaker 3: targeted with deep fake images that flood X and this

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Speaker 3: happened when she was only a minor, she was seventeen,

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Speaker 3: and she's spoken out about this publicly that she basically

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Speaker 3: was just told there's nothing that can be done. You

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Speaker 3: just have to make peace with the fact that these

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Speaker 3: images are out there. Back in January of twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 3: Taylor Swift was a target of the same thing. AI

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Speaker 3: generated sexualized images of her flooded the platform. Those images

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Speaker 3: actually originated on an alternative social media platform called Telegram.

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Speaker 3: At the time, Telegram had this channel that was essentially

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Speaker 3: kind of a marketplace for celebrity deep stakes, where users

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Speaker 3: would like request and trade images that they had made

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Speaker 3: of celebrities.

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Speaker 2: Those images then made their way to X where they

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Speaker 2: really took off.

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Speaker 3: Like Telegram is still pretty niche, but once those images

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Speaker 3: went from Telegram to X, that's when they got a

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Speaker 3: lot more visibility. When this happened, in my opinion, I

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Speaker 3: don't think that X handled it very well, which I

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Speaker 3: think we can really see as a precursor to how

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Speaker 3: we got to where we are right now with it. Initially,

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Speaker 3: X their way to deal with it was to try

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Speaker 3: to block people from being able to search Taylor Swift's name,

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Speaker 3: which I think is not a real fix anyway. But

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Speaker 3: when you put her name in quotes, you still could

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Speaker 3: search her name, and so obviously that did not work

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Speaker 3: as a fix. But also that solution would only work

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Speaker 3: for women named Taylor Swift, right Like, It's not any

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Speaker 3: kind of like meaningful way to combat the actual problem

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Speaker 3: on the platform. It might just be preventive to have

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Speaker 3: people search Taylor to Swift, but even not really at that. So, yeah,

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Speaker 3: did not handle it well. And so this was happening

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Speaker 3: before grock was a thing and then but back then,

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Speaker 3: these images would start on niche or alternative platforms and

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Speaker 3: then go to Twitter to get reach in visibility, then

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Speaker 3: inter Grock, which essentially allows users to use natural language

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Speaker 3: to ask Groc to generate whatever they want to see

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Speaker 3: women and girls do. So you could just say, hey,

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Speaker 3: Grock do xyz. Grock's going to do it now again, Sam,

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Speaker 3: As you rightly pointed out, keep in mind that when

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Speaker 3: Elon Musk took over at Twitter, he very early on

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Speaker 3: dissolved Twitter's Trust and Safety Council and fired eighty percent

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Speaker 3: of the engineers working on child exploitation issues. This is

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Speaker 3: from a really talented journalist at spitfire News, Cat Tenbarg,

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Speaker 3: who's been writing about this for a really long time.

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Speaker 3: So you know, Musk comes into Twitter, he fires the

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Speaker 3: people who are working on this. He knows that they

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Speaker 3: already have this issue with non consensual sexualized images on

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Speaker 3: the platform and.

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Speaker 2: Are not really handling it well.

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Speaker 3: And yet over the summer, X rolls out what it

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Speaker 3: calls Spicy Mode for Rock, which is going to be

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Speaker 3: a way to let people generate images in video to

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Speaker 3: produce sexual content. And so I want to put it

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Speaker 3: that way because to me, none of this stuff is

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Speaker 3: happening in a vacuum.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: These are very clear decisions that I would say, it's

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Speaker 3: very foreseeable. What kind of results decisions like these are

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Speaker 3: going to.

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Speaker 4: You know, with all of the KOSA stuff happening and

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Speaker 4: the banning or the exclusionary stuff, with things like porn

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Speaker 4: Hub and all of that, this is interesting. I'm not

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Speaker 4: trying to be conspiratorial here, but on the far reaching

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Speaker 4: of the conspiracy side, this seems like a really interesting

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Speaker 4: monopoly for sexualized content.

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Speaker 3: I've been racking my brain because this just seems weird, right,

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Speaker 3: it's just.

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Speaker 2: A very yeah. I mean, and again, I just I

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Speaker 2: can't wrap my head.

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Speaker 3: Around living in a world where miners aren't allowed to

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Speaker 3: talk to other miners on social media because that's dangerous,

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Speaker 3: but they can be undressed and sexualized by GROC and

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Speaker 3: that's fine.

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Speaker 2: Like, I just I can't square that circle if we will.

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Speaker 4: Be with all of the porn child porn laws, which

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Speaker 4: is pretty explicit like about the laws and like children

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Speaker 4: can be charged with it just by taking pictures of

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Speaker 4: themselves and having it in their phone, that is childborn.

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Speaker 4: I have seen kids being charged with child porn.

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Speaker 1: By the way.

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Speaker 4: Wow, So it's interesting, uh huh is interesting to see

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Speaker 4: this where they're like, but it's not real. We didn't

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Speaker 4: harm a kid. We just took their likeness and then

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Speaker 4: dot dot Yes.

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Speaker 3: So I wasn't totally sure about this, so I looked

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Speaker 3: it up and according to Enough Abuse, which is an

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Speaker 3: anti child sexual abuse organization, forty five states in the

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Speaker 3: United States have enacted laws that criminalize AI generated or

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Speaker 3: computer edited child sexual assault material, while five states and

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Speaker 3: the districts of Columbia where I live have not as

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Speaker 3: of August twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 2: Right, and so you're exactly right.

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Speaker 3: One of the I guess criticisms or pushback sometimes I

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Speaker 3: will hear is like, oh, well they're not actually harming

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Speaker 3: real kids, it is still a real crime.

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Speaker 2: So that's all I can say.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't want to jump too far ahead, but

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Speaker 4: I'm like, the alarm bells are ringing over.

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Speaker 2: Here, as they should be.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think also calling something spicy mode is

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Speaker 1: so unseerious, Like they're treating this so unseriously of like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is just a fun and I think it's a

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Speaker 1: very convenient excuse of being like, well, it was the AI.

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Speaker 1: But like you said, there are people behind this that

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Speaker 1: created it this way. But I think they're using it

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Speaker 1: very conveniently for them to be like, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: it's just spicy mode.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And I want to kind of underline that

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Speaker 3: because we have to. We can't not mention that X

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Speaker 3: is run by Elon Musk. And I'm sorry, but this

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Speaker 3: is just part and parcel of what Elon Musk is about.

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Speaker 3: Before I got on with you two, I was like, Oh,

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Speaker 3: what's Elon Musk talking about. He was posting on X

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Speaker 3: jokey pictures that showed a toaster in a bikini, So

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Speaker 3: not taking this seriously at all. And I think we

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Speaker 3: have to say Elon Musk has been a really toxic

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Speaker 3: decision maker for a long time, and I can't help

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Speaker 3: but wonder if if some of the people in power

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Speaker 3: and people in media, if they had not treated this

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Speaker 3: like oh, just the acceptable quirkiness of a brilliant genius

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Speaker 3: and rather chaotic, volatile leadership decisions that are bad for business.

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Speaker 3: I wonder if we would not be in this situation

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Speaker 3: where somebody like Elon Musk feels totally comfortable talking about

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Speaker 3: this in a way that makes it clear he thinks

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Speaker 3: it's a joke and it's not serious to him. The

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Speaker 3: whole thing is like very unseerious.

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Speaker 4: I mean, let's this is gonna be if one day

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Speaker 4: someone gets a hold of our episodes that don't like us,

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Speaker 4: this is gonna be a bad take. But let's just

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Speaker 4: for a minute, imagine what would have happened if someone

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Speaker 4: did those with a Charlie Kirk picture of this death?

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Speaker 2: Are you? I mean, like yeah, it would be I mean,

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Speaker 2: don't even get me sing why.

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Speaker 4: The people went off on just quoting his words as

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Speaker 4: being offensive? Yeah, could you imagine.

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Speaker 3: I could not write And I don't think we would

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Speaker 3: ever see that, like like it just it's yeah, And

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Speaker 3: you know, it's the scale, the scale of the issue

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Speaker 3: on X. It's it's really kind of mind boggling how

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Speaker 3: much of this content is flourishing there right now. Copy Leaks,

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Speaker 3: which is like a content analysis firm, they reported on

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Speaker 3: December thirty first that X users were generating roughly one

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Speaker 3: non consensual sexualized image per minute.

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Speaker 2: That is so many images, that's so.

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Speaker 3: Much and not to like even think about the environmental

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Speaker 3: impact of this, like I had, like I need to

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Speaker 3: see this miner in a bikini is worth the environmental

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Speaker 3: impact of doing this one image per minute? That something

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Speaker 3: about that I just it's hard for me to wrap

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Speaker 3: my head around.

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Speaker 4: That people have the goal to do it. This is

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Speaker 4: a form that used to be used for social and

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Speaker 4: political conversation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, now this, and you know, people like Elon Musk

435
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Speaker 3: love to talk about X or Twitter as like, oh,

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Speaker 3: it's the digital town square where people can enter the

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Speaker 3: marketplace of ideas. Okay, Well, as a woman, I'm not

438
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,119
Speaker 3: going to enter a marketplace where my top my kit

439
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 3: yanked off when I go in there.

440
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 2: So I don't believe that X is a marketplace of ideas.

441
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 3: But even if it were, if it's not safe for

442
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 3: women to show up, women are not going to be

443
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 3: able to have a chance to engage in this so

444
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 3: called marketplace of ideas, right, It's just ridiculous and so

445
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,439
Speaker 3: according to Bloomberg, during a twenty four hour analysis of

446
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,880
Speaker 3: images the Grock account posted to X, the chapbot generated

447
00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 3: about six seven hundred every hour that we're ident as

448
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 3: sexually suggestive or new toifying. According to Genevieveo, a social

449
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 3: media and deep sake researcher, the other top five websites

450
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 3: for such content average seventy nine new AI undressing images

451
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 3: per hour in the twenty four hour period from January

452
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 3: fifth to January six, oh found. So again, it's not

453
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 3: like X is the only place where this kind of

454
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,479
Speaker 3: content shows up. It's on Facebook. It's a problem across

455
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 3: the internet. However, it is very clearly a much bigger

456
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,239
Speaker 3: problem in happening on a much bigger scale on X

457
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,159
Speaker 3: as compared to other social media platforms. And just to

458
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 3: make something else clear, we've been talking about celebrities and

459
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 3: things like that. To be clear, it is not just celebrities.

460
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 3: It's also this regular, non famous, non public figures who

461
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 3: post their images on X that this is happening to.

462
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 2: And I feel like.

463
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 3: This is the part of the podcast where I should

464
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 3: say women should be careful, like don't post your picture

465
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 3: on social media, YadA, YadA, YadA, And I guess I

466
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 3: feel some responsibility to say that. But on the other hand,

467
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 3: women should be allowed to post normal pictures on social media.

468
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 3: I kind of hate this advice that says, like, oh, women,

469
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 3: it's not safe for you to show up here, So

470
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 3: I wouldn't show up in these places. Women not doing

471
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 3: anything wrong, right, We're not the ones who are generating

472
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 3: this kind of creepy imagery. And I just hate that

473
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 3: guidance because it creates a climate where it's just normalized

474
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 3: that women can no longer show up on these platforms

475
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 3: in ways that are safe.

476
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 2: But of course I have to imagine that's the point.

477
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it feels very like I used to think

478
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 1: this a lot when I was running, and I would

479
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 1: see advice given towards male runners and female runners, and

480
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: it's very it would be very much like blaming you

481
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 1: already for something that could go wrong, like don't put

482
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: your hair in a ponytail because a man could grab it,

483
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:54,199
Speaker 1: don't wear a headphones because you won't hear something like

484
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 1: it was making it feel like it was your fault

485
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 1: for whatever might happen to you. And that's it's so

486
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: unfortunate because I agree with you, Bridget. It's one of

487
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:09,439
Speaker 1: those things where I'm like, yes, I sometimes feel like

488
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: I have to give this advice, but it feels so

489
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 1: horrible to give that advice because it's not your fault

490
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: and it shouldn't be this way.

491
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 4: Right, Yes, it's that cautionary tale that you have to tell,

492
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 4: which you're like, but it's not your fault. You didn't

493
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 4: do anything wrong. But because this is the state of

494
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 4: the world and everything is awful. Let me tell you this,

495
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 4: and if something does go wrong, you're going to remember

496
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 4: that in your head and say what could I have done?

497
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 4: Which is also another layer that again is not your fault,

498
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,959
Speaker 4: is not our fault, but because that's how it is

499
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 4: laid out, it's almost a trap for you to blame yourself.

500
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

501
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 3: So I was scrolling around social media just trying to

502
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 3: get a sense of like what people are saying, and

503
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 3: there was an image that somebody had taken off of

504
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 3: a woman's LinkedIn, and then somebody asked roc like, oh,

505
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 3: put it in a bikini, do this, do that? And

506
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 3: then someone was like, well, if she didn't want this

507
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 3: to happen, she shouldn't, like, like, if you put your

508
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 3: picture on the internet, you get what you get. And

509
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 3: I thought, you can't even have your headshot on a

510
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 3: link on LinkedIn a professional platform without it being like that,

511
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 3: like that, that's not consenting to have your image be

512
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 3: manipulated in ways that are sexual, And I was just really,

513
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,880
Speaker 3: I think it really shows how much we have normalized

514
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:30,360
Speaker 3: that women bring this on themselves via visibility, even when

515
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 3: the visibility is totally normal, right, Like a totally normal

516
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 3: picture of you know, a woman's face. If you are

517
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 3: not allowed to post that, then women can't safely show

518
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 3: up on the internet. It's just very frustrating. And any

519
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 3: of your point about being a woman who runs it, really,

520
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 3: I think that's a really good analogy because it is

521
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 3: very frustrating, Like you want to give advice, but why

522
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 3: should you have to get this kind of advice?

523
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, to your point about LinkedIn. Samantha

524
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 1: and I I think last year around this time we

525
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 1: were talking about what was going on on next door

526
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 1: because I was like, what in the world is this?

527
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: Because I was seeing people men being like, well, this

528
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: woman was asking for me to give her my number

529
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 1: and now she's mad about it. But look at what

530
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: she was wearing in this mixture, And.

531
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 2: I was like, what.

532
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: This is Like, it's everywhere. It is so pervasive and

533
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 1: so insidious that even yeah, just going online, I'll be like, oh,

534
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: this must be a safe space. No, never, not that

535
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,239
Speaker 1: next door I ever thought was a safe space. But

536
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 1: I was surprised that that was coming up on there.

537
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 4: We know next door is a hotbed of many things

538
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 4: and messes, including Rachel process, but unlat of drama.

539
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 2: But yeah, I also again.

540
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 4: Going with my ringing alarms here because I've become real

541
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 4: conspiratory today apparently. But this just feels like a ploy

542
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 4: may be a part of the Esther project, maybe project

543
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 4: twenty five. I could be just blowing this out of

544
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 4: proportion in that they are trying to eliminate women from

545
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 4: these spaces because we know that being able to access

546
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 4: like LinkedIn and Internet give you accessibility to jobs, to pops,

547
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 4: possibly being able to do content, to be able to

548
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 4: grow your business, to be able to grow your name,

549
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 4: whatever whatnot. And if you shame them and victimize them

550
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 4: to a point, or at least like bully them off

551
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 4: of these spaces, then they we cannot connect. Marginalized communities

552
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 4: cannot connect as we know it. That's how kind of

553
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 4: Twitter blew up is being able to connect with each other.

554
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 4: And it was a space for black women and women

555
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 4: of color to come together and be able to lay

556
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 4: down the grounds for changes that wipes up from just

557
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 4: do not want. So it does feel like maybe they

558
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 4: are doing this purposely. I could absolutly. Even though I

559
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 4: don't think he's smart, I think he's smart enough to

560
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 4: use his evil to being like if we show them

561
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 4: that you're going to be demeaned to nothing but sexual

562
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 4: objects by no, like nothing from you, not because you

563
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 4: posted something, but because we used your post against you,

564
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 4: then we can get rid of you. And therefore you

565
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 4: do not have the same leg up as those who

566
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 4: are able to access this area.

567
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 3: Oh, I mean this doesn't sound conspiratorial to me at all,

568
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 3: because one only needs to read Project twenty twenty five

569
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 3: to see that pushing women and other marginalized people out

570
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 3: of public and civic life is part of the point. Like,

571
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 3: that's what they're trying to do. And so if women

572
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 3: and other marginalized people are not safe showing up online,

573
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 3: and if they show up online, they either have to

574
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 3: say like, oh, yeah, you might somebody might take your

575
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 3: image and put it in a horrifying AI generated sexualized scenario,

576
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 3: and everybody will be like, well that's what you get.

577
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 3: Come into the internet, even though it's not happening equitably

578
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 3: across all people. Yeah, that does have the effect of

579
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 3: pushing folks out of these spaces. And in twenty twenty six,

580
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 3: you're exactly right. Part of being civically engaged, part of

581
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 3: being economically engaged, is being online. You know that's not

582
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 3: me that's the un saying that, right. And so if

583
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 3: we create the conditions where everybody cannot equitably and equally

584
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 3: and safely show up online, that means that people who

585
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 3: can't show up are not going to be full participants

586
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 3: in their democracy, because that's U's more and more how

587
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 3: democracy is unfolding is online in twenty twenty six.

588
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 2: And so you're exactly right. It doesn't sound conspiratorial to

589
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 2: me at all.

590
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I know I bring this up a lot,

591
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: but that episode Bridget we did together about journalism in India,

592
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: I think about that all the time, where women journalists

593
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: were getting sent these deep fakes, these nudes of them

594
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: being threatened, like if you print the story, we'll send

595
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 1: it to your family, and that's like the news. That's journalism,

596
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 1: and they're trying to scare women away. And I've been

597
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: I don't want to do this episode, but I've been

598
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 1: thinking about doing this episode about how Donald Trump treats

599
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 1: women who are journalists and how he speaks to women

600
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 1: who are journalists. And it feels very similar to what

601
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: you're talking about, Samantha. It feels very like, let's just

602
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 1: demean these women, Let's make it so miserable for them

603
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 1: that they go away and we don't have to answer

604
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: these questions and we don't have to change anything.

605
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 3: Yes, I think that's exactly it's exactly the same thing.

606
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 3: And like I it's been you know, as women in media,

607
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 3: you kind of have to have a thick skin, but

608
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 3: nobody should be calling you piggy, right, Like, there's a line.

609
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 2: And I think the fact that we've normalized this.

610
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 3: I watched Caroline leave it when Trump called that female

611
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 3: reporter or a piggy. Leva got a question about it, and

612
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 3: she was like, well, you know, we all appreciate that

613
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 3: Trump speaks his mind and says it like it is.

614
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 3: And it's like the fact that that's normalized, Now, what

615
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 3: message does that sin to little girls like me who

616
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 3: wanted to be journalists when they were little kids, right, Like, oh,

617
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 3: you'll have to withstand this level of attacks about your identity,

618
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 3: your appearance, who you are. It just really again, it

619
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 3: just really makes me sick. But I think it is

620
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,359
Speaker 3: intentional because the signal is very clear of like, don't

621
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 3: ask questions, don't make waves, because this is what's going

622
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 3: to happen. And let me be real, no woman journalist

623
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 3: wants to become the story because the President called her

624
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 3: a pig. No, no, and so you have to decide, like,

625
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 3: is do you want this to be part of your

626
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 3: career if you challenge Trump? It's just a really impossible

627
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 3: bargain and that women should not be having to make

628
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty six.

629
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. Agree. I mean it's one of those things where

630
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 1: I feel like we're in such a backslide. But if

631
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 1: at one point I would have said, in any other job,

632
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: a boss calling you that you would get fired. But

633
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 1: now it's like, no, no, just that was a joke.

634
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 1: Let's just move on.

635
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 2: That's okay, it was barely a blip. I'll tell you

636
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 2: something else. There's just no reality where I would let

637
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 2: a man that looks like Donald Trump call me say

638
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 2: say anything about my appearance. Shout out to the.

639
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 3: Women that just took it on the chin, because I

640
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 3: would never let a man that looks like Donald Trump

641
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 3: say to me about the way I.

642
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 4: Look, the pettiness that would have come out of my mouth.

643
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 5: All oh, oh, oh, okay, Well, going back to grook,

644
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 5: you have some numbers here that are pretty disturbing.

645
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 3: Yes, So The Guardian spoke to PhD researcher at Dublin's

646
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 3: Trinity College AI Accountability Lab, Nana Nwachukwu, whose research investigated

647
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 3: the different types of requests that users were submitting to GROC,

648
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:17,320
Speaker 3: and she found that nearly three quarters of all requests

649
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 3: were direct non consensual requests for GROC to remove or

650
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 3: replace clothing.

651
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 2: Three quarters. That is a lot.

652
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 3: She showed the Guardians some of the different GROC created

653
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 3: photos that she was collecting as part of her research,

654
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 3: and The Guardian confirmed that dozens of them were pictures

655
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,399
Speaker 3: of women, including celebrities, models, stock photos as well as

656
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 3: just regular ordinary, non public figure women posing in snapshots.

657
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 3: And so her research really paints a portrait that this

658
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 3: is like an ecosystem where users are not just making

659
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 3: these images, they are also interacting with each other and

660
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,359
Speaker 3: like iterating on the different non consensual images that they've

661
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:56,359
Speaker 3: made GROC.

662
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 2: To make right.

663
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,839
Speaker 3: And so something about that is no to me that

664
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,240
Speaker 3: it's not just GROC make this horrifying image.

665
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 2: It's GROC make this horrifying image. Oh cool image, bro,

666
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 2: I'm gonna make it like this.

667
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 3: Like it's like they're really building community around this and

668
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 3: they're they're bold enough to do it.

669
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 2: In public.

670
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:18,399
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, this kind of thing has been

671
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 3: going on in on alternative channels like telegram, where people

672
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:25,320
Speaker 3: are you know, kind of engaging in community and conversation

673
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 3: about it. But the fact that this is happening in

674
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:31,360
Speaker 3: public is so different to me. And also, of the

675
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 3: several posts that the Guardian saw, lots of them that

676
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 3: got tens of thousands of impressions are coming from premium users,

677
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 3: so blue check accounts, including accounts with tens of thousands

678
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 3: of followers, and so just a reminder, premium accounts that

679
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 3: have more than five hundred followers and five million impressions

680
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 3: over three months are eligible for excess revenue sharing eligibility.

681
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,439
Speaker 3: So yeah, just it's not a marketplace of ideas. It's

682
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 3: a marketplace of non consensual images where there is a

683
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 3: financial incentive for people to post this kind of content because.

684
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 2: If they go viral, they could get paid for it

685
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 2: from X.

686
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 1: We're making a Marvel Faces listeners. You can't see it,

687
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 1: but oh my goodness, and you know, I know we're

688
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:19,720
Speaker 1: gonna get into this later. Feels legal, It feels feels

689
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:20,840
Speaker 1: wrong and illegal to me.

690
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,879
Speaker 2: Yes, it's me too.

691
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 3: I mean the animating question that I sort of started

692
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 3: this conversation out with when I set down to plan

693
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:31,800
Speaker 3: out the episode is how is this allowed?

694
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 2: How is this legal? Is anybody gonna do anything like?

695
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 2: What is going on?

696
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 3: And again, you know we're talking about AI generated images,

697
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 3: but really this is nothing new because X has also

698
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 3: just been a platform where AI and non AI generated

699
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 3: illegal child sexual assault material doesn't just exist but can flourish.

700
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 3: There's a great piece that I read by one of

701
00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 3: my favorite journalists, Samantha Cole from four for Media called

702
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 3: grox AI sexual abuse didn't come out of nowhere. Coll writes,

703
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 3: this is the culmination of years and years of rampant

704
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 3: abuse on the platform. Reporting from the National Center for

705
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 3: Missing and Exploited Children, the official organization social media platforms

706
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 3: report to when they find instances of child sexual abuse material,

707
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 3: which then reports to the relevant authorities, shows that Twitter

708
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 3: and eventually X has been one of the leading hosts

709
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 3: of this kind of material every year for the last

710
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 3: seven years. In twenty nineteen, the platform reported forty five,

711
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,760
Speaker 3: seven hundred and twenty six instances of abuse. In twenty twenty,

712
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,879
Speaker 3: it was sixty five thousand, sixty two. In twenty twenty four,

713
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,760
Speaker 3: it was six hundred and eighty six thousand, one hundred

714
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 3: and seventy six. So yeah, I mean again, this is

715
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,399
Speaker 3: a problem all across the Internet, but it does sort

716
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 3: of paint a picture of the fact that this is

717
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 3: much worse on Twitter, and Cole points out that these

718
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 3: numbers should be considered with the caveat that platforms voluntarily

719
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 3: report this kind of content, and more reports can also

720
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 3: mean wronger moderation systems that catch this kind of content

721
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 3: when it appears, but the scale of the problem is

722
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 3: still apparent. So Jack Dorsey, who was the CEO of

723
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 3: the earlier iteration of Twitter, he was not very good.

724
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 3: I don't I'm not gonna like sit here and say

725
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 3: that he was great at moderation. As Cold points out,

726
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 3: Jack Dorsey's Twitter was a moderation clown show much of

727
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 3: the time. But moderation on Elon Musk's X, especially against

728
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 3: abusive imagery, is a total failure. So yeah, not going

729
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 3: well or going very well, depending on you.

730
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 2: Know what perspective you take.

731
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 3: You know, if you're a child pornographer, you might be like, oh,

732
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:38,399
Speaker 3: it's actually going great.

733
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 1: Oh yes, which does bring us back to the question of, yeah,

734
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,879
Speaker 1: why is this allowed? Why is this legal.

735
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 2: Question.

736
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 3: So this kind of content definitely violates x's own policies,

737
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 3: which prohibit sharing a legal content like child sexual abuse material,

738
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 3: but as a piece for Wired points out, it could

739
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:09,240
Speaker 3: also violate Google's play like app store and the Apple

740
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 3: App stores guidelines Wired rights. Apple and Google both explicitly

741
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 3: ban apps containing CSAM, which is illegal to host and

742
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 3: distribute in many countries. The tech giants also forbid apps

743
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 3: that contain pornographic material or facilitate harassment the Apple App

744
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 3: stores as it doesn't allow overtly sexual or pornographic material,

745
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 3: as well as defamatory, discriminatory, or means spirited content, especially

746
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 3: if the app is likely to humiliate, intimidate, or harm

747
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,400
Speaker 3: a targeted individual or group. The Google play Store bands

748
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 3: apps that contain or promote content associated with sexually predatory

749
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 3: behavior or distribute non consensual sexual content, as well as

750
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 3: programs that contain or facilitate threats, harassment, or bullying, and

751
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 3: there is some precedent for this, because both Apple and

752
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 3: Google have removed other kinds of newdify apps from their

753
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 3: platforms because they're not allowed. However, the standalone Grock app

754
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 3: is still available on both Apple and Google, so I think,

755
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 3: you know, private companies, you just cannot always count on

756
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 3: them to take action against other private companies.

757
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 2: I think that just really shows.

758
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 3: Like the weakness in having the you know, barrier of

759
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 3: accountability be private companies making decisions about other private companies,

760
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 3: which brings me to the law. So I am no

761
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,720
Speaker 3: lawyer just to give that warning upfront, but the framing

762
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 3: that I am taking is that to me, this seems

763
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 3: like criminal behavior. I understand this as a criminal enterprise

764
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 3: that Elon Musk is personally financially profiting from. And so

765
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 3: I am not a lawyer or a legal expert, so

766
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 3: like I would love to have somebody explain to me

767
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 3: how it is not criminal, But I understand this to

768
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 3: be criminal activity. As I said, forty five states have

769
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 3: laws that criminalized AI generation or computer edited child sexual

770
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 3: abuse material. If you or I used AI to create

771
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:11,399
Speaker 3: such material, we would probably be having legal trouble. If

772
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 3: we were financially benefiting from the sale and trade of that.

773
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:16,280
Speaker 2: Material, we would have legal trouble.

774
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 3: I do not understand why Elon Musk does not have

775
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 3: legal trouble in the United States over this, but he

776
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 3: does not.

777
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I know every time we do these episodes

778
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,799
Speaker 1: forever ago. We did one about Xbox, which wow, oh my.

779
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 2: God, I forgot about that.

780
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 1: But you know, you have those like where the rules

781
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 1: the regulations of a platform, and they'll say something like

782
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: you can't do this or you'll get in trouble, but

783
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 1: they're doing it and they're not. And so I remember

784
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 1: it was a big push on Twitter before it became

785
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: x to report Donald Trump or anybody it was inciting violence,

786
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 1: which was against their guidelines, and be like this is it,

787
00:43:58,080 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 1: and you know you're never going to hear anything about

788
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 1: that ever. See anything happened about that. Recently, I tried

789
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 1: to report YouTube for something and it was almost impossible

790
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 1: to do. It's like, but this is against the guidelines

791
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 1: you said that you had, and now you're ignoring it,

792
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:19,360
Speaker 1: giving me no avenue to really to really complain about

793
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 1: it or low to complain to like, hey, this is

794
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 1: violence or this is illegal or sexual content that should

795
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 1: not be there exactly.

796
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 3: And you know, speaking of Trump, people might remember that

797
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,799
Speaker 3: I think around last year he signed in the law

798
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,279
Speaker 3: that Take It Down Act, which makes it illegal to

799
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 3: knowingly host or share non consensual sexual images, and so

800
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:46,720
Speaker 3: people might be thinking, well, why is like, shouldn't this this.

801
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 2: Law prevent this.

802
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 3: One main thing to know about that law is that

803
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 3: companies do not have to respond or do anything until

804
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,760
Speaker 3: a victim reports it. And so if nobody is reporting

805
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 3: this to the police, to exesn't have to do anything.

806
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 3: So so I just wanted to note that because if

807
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 3: you would reasonably think like, we have a law against

808
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 3: this now not really?

809
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:16,319
Speaker 1: Well, well, what has the response from xpin about all

810
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 1: of this?

811
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 3: Well, as I mentioned, people were really circulating a I

812
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 3: believe user generated response from GROC quote I deeply regretted

813
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:31,839
Speaker 3: an incident on December twenty eight, twenty twenty five, where

814
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 3: I generated and shared an AI image of two young

815
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 3: girls estimated ages twelve to sixteen in sexualized attire based

816
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 3: on a user's prompt. It was a failure in safeguards

817
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 3: and I'm sorry for any harm caused. And I mentioned this.

818
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 3: I wanted to say this, and I mentioned earlier how

819
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 3: all of these headlines about how grok is apologizing and

820
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 3: taking responsibility again, Grok is not sentient and setting it

821
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:59,279
Speaker 3: up like a non sentient piece of technology could take

822
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,839
Speaker 3: the blame from or something that humans did, and humans,

823
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 3: you know, facilitated it lets the humans off the hook,

824
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 3: because humans like Elon Musk are really not doing anything.

825
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 3: Per indicator, Musk, while this was all going on, shared

826
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 3: at least thirty different posts celebrating Groc and talking about

827
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 3: how great Groc is. While this was happening between January

828
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,959
Speaker 3: seventh and eighth, he has not expressed remorse for what's

829
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 3: happening on X, and in fact, has been basically joking

830
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 3: about it. I will say that at one point he

831
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 3: might have been like, oh, let should probably ly say

832
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 3: something that's you know, it's not often joke. He did

833
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 3: say that anybody who used Groc to create anything illegal

834
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:46,479
Speaker 3: will face consequences. They haven't, but he's doing that while

835
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 3: also laughing about the fact that Groc is being used

836
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 3: in this way. As cat ten BArch put it, the

837
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 3: reality is that X has not taken this as seriously

838
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 3: as one of Groc's user prompted posts might seem to suggest. Instead,

839
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 3: Musk has encouraged, laughed at, and praised grok for its

840
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 3: ability to edit images of fully closed people into bikinis.

841
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:09,799
Speaker 3: Growk is awesome, he tweeted, while the AI was being

842
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 3: used to undress women and children, make it look like

843
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:16,240
Speaker 3: they're crying, generate fake bruises and burnmarks on their bodies

844
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 3: and write things like property of Little Saint James Island,

845
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 3: which is a reference to Jeffrey Epstein's private island, and

846
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 3: sex trafficking. So yeah, he is not taking it very seriously.

847
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 3: And in one of her pieces, Kat said that she

848
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 3: reached out to X for like an official comment on

849
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:36,880
Speaker 3: the record, and she got back an automated email that

850
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 3: just says legacy media lies, which, by.

851
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:41,439
Speaker 2: The way, Kat's not legacy media.

852
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:43,439
Speaker 3: She runs an independent news outlet, So that's not even

853
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 3: like a it's a complete non sequit er. It's like

854
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 3: not even a relevant thing to say. As she puts it,

855
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 3: there's no reason to make X and Musk seem more

856
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,919
Speaker 3: concerned about this than they really are. They've known about

857
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 3: this happening the entire time, and they've made it easier

858
00:47:57,280 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 3: to inflict on victims. They are not investing in solution,

859
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:02,800
Speaker 3: they are investing in making the problem worse.

860
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:04,279
Speaker 4: YEP, a lot of.

861
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 1: Heavy size this episode. I keep going back to the

862
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 1: point you made at the beginning, Bridget, that is it's hateful.

863
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 1: It's very very hateful. It's not just like, oh, let's

864
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 1: put women in bikinis or children in bikinis, which is

865
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 1: horrible enough, but it's like actively these attacks that I

866
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 1: mean are damaging if you're just going online and this

867
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:46,359
Speaker 1: is what you face, that can impact your entire day

868
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:49,360
Speaker 1: that you weren't expecting to have to deal with this.

869
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 1: And I do think for sure that they are investing

870
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:58,839
Speaker 1: in making the problem worse, which I guess does bring

871
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 1: us to the question of, well, where do we go

872
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 1: from here.

873
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, so, I'm sorry to say I don't think the

874
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 3: United States is going to do anything at all about this.

875
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 3: I think the way that I've been hearing elected officials

876
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 3: talk about it, I don't think anything's going to happen

877
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:17,759
Speaker 3: to MUSCA in the United States. Kat ten Bard spoke

878
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 3: to doctor mary Anne Franks, who drafted the template for

879
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 3: several laws against non consensual distribution of intimate imagery. She

880
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 3: told Kat the FTC has made it clear that they're

881
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:29,439
Speaker 3: fighting for Trump. It's actually never going to be used

882
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 3: against the very players who are the worst in the system.

883
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:33,880
Speaker 3: X is going to continue to be one of the

884
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:36,800
Speaker 3: worst offenders and probably one of the pioneers of horrible

885
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:41,279
Speaker 3: ways to hurt women. And unfortunately, I do think that's

886
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 3: the case in the United States. However, Europe is not happy.

887
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 3: Earlier this week, a spokesperson for the European Commission criticized

888
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:53,720
Speaker 3: the sexually explicit, non consensual images generated by GROCK, calling

889
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:58,239
Speaker 3: them a legal which they are appalling and saying they

890
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 3: have no place in Europe. Then a few days later,

891
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 3: the EU ordered X to retain all internal documents and

892
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:07,800
Speaker 3: data tied to GROC through twenty twenty six, which extended

893
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 3: their earlier directive to preserve evidence relevant to the Digital

894
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:15,720
Speaker 3: Services Act, even though there was no new formal probe announced. Similarly,

895
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:19,840
Speaker 3: regulators in the UK, India, and Malaysia have also signaled

896
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 3: investigations into X now. In response to this, X announced

897
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:28,359
Speaker 3: that they were going to restrict the ability to create

898
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 3: images using ROC to users who pay for premium who

899
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 3: pay for a blue check. This is not at all

900
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:37,520
Speaker 3: a fix to the problem. All it means is that

901
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:41,239
Speaker 3: the ability to make non consensual sexualized content will become

902
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 3: a premium service. So not only is it not addressing

903
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:45,880
Speaker 3: the problem, it's just becoming a way for X to

904
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 3: make money off of it. Again, I would love for

905
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 3: somebody to explain to me how this is not a

906
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 3: financially beneficial criminal enterprise for Elon Musk.

907
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:58,839
Speaker 4: Well, that also goes to show that if we as

908
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 4: a country fill like another country is harming us. So,

909
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 4: you know, child porn is pretty bad and seen as

910
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 4: like a whole international thing, right, trying to prevent trafficking

911
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 4: and such. Could these other countries and invade and try

912
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 4: to arrest Musk like the US?

913
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:21,720
Speaker 3: I mean, great question, right, since since the United States

914
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 3: can just rush in and kidnap a corrupt elected official or.

915
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 2: Leader, I don't know, I would be curious to know

916
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 2: where that begins it ends. I mean saying if you'll

917
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 2: take it requests.

918
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:39,400
Speaker 4: CC is pretty high up on that, you know, no

919
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 4: no list.

920
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 3: So yeah, so X trying to make it so that

921
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 3: you have to just pay for premium in order to

922
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 3: generate images with ROC. The British government is really not

923
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 3: impressed by this, a spokesperson told The Guardian. Quote the

924
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 3: move simply turns an AI feature that allows the creation

925
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 3: of unlawful images into a premium service. So that's pretty

926
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:07,359
Speaker 3: much what's going on, right, Like, I think we'll see

927
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:13,399
Speaker 3: if other countries cracked down on this. I mean, even

928
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 3: doing the research for this episode, it's like I had

929
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 3: to go to the Guardian, I had to go to

930
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 3: UK or overseas papers to get real reporting, because it's

931
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 3: just I don't think that people are really taking it

932
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:30,360
Speaker 3: as seriously. Here in the States, regulatory bodies definitely are

933
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 3: not right obviously.

934
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 4: I mean he has by creating this premium X standard,

935
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:39,359
Speaker 4: he's kind of become the Epstein of child porn.

936
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:40,279
Speaker 2: Yeah.

937
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 4: I mean, if you can pay for it, then.

938
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:43,840
Speaker 3: Go for it. I mean I have to imagine Epstein

939
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:48,640
Speaker 3: is probably financially benefiting from the trade and exchange of

940
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 3: minors for sex. Again, I would love to have somebody

941
00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:53,879
Speaker 3: who knows more about the law explained to me how

942
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 3: Elon Musk becoming personally financially enriched through the generation of

943
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 3: a legal material is not similar. It seems very similar

944
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:05,319
Speaker 3: to me. And you know, to sort of wrap up,

945
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 3: I think it's important to note that this. You know,

946
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:10,919
Speaker 3: we've been talking about this as a tech issue, which

947
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:13,800
Speaker 3: it definitely is, but it's really a culture issue. And

948
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 3: I just I kind of keep coming back to that

949
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 3: again and again and again, because you know, when Google

950
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:23,240
Speaker 3: released this that their like AI image generator Nano banana

951
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:27,360
Speaker 3: pro were of like conventionally attractive women. When you go

952
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:30,800
Speaker 3: to that the Nano Banana subreddit, it's basically like post

953
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:33,680
Speaker 3: after post after a post of like hot woman, And

954
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 3: it just makes me realize how much technology is being

955
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 3: used to reinforce this, this worldview where women are just

956
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 3: meant to be consumed and controlled and exploited, And to me,

957
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:51,200
Speaker 3: it really does express this desire to live in a

958
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 3: world where women just exists to be consumed and controlled

959
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:56,759
Speaker 3: and stripped of whatever agency we have been managed to

960
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,040
Speaker 3: claim over our own bodies, our own on our own lives.

961
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:02,200
Speaker 3: And I think until we can front that reality, this

962
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:06,160
Speaker 3: is not a problem that you can build technical safeguards

963
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:08,840
Speaker 3: to fix. I do think that these platforms should be

964
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:11,560
Speaker 3: building technical safeguards, and we should be advocating for that,

965
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:13,520
Speaker 3: But I don't think it's a problem where you can

966
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 3: like guardrail your way out of it. People who have

967
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 3: been reporting on deep fakes since before we had a

968
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 3: word for it, folks like Samantha Cole, have really pointed

969
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:24,480
Speaker 3: this out. Cole writes in twenty eighteen, less than a

970
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:27,200
Speaker 3: year after reporting the first story on deep fakes, I

971
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:29,600
Speaker 3: wrote about how it's a serious mistake to ignore the

972
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:33,160
Speaker 3: fact that non consensual imagery, synthetic or not, is a

973
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:37,320
Speaker 3: societal sickness and not something companies can guard. Railegance into infinity.

974
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:39,840
Speaker 3: Users feed off one another to create a sense that

975
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:41,840
Speaker 3: they're the kings of the universe, that they answer to

976
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:44,240
Speaker 3: no one. This logic is how you get in cells

977
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:46,400
Speaker 3: and pickup artists, and it's how you get deep fakes,

978
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 3: a group of men who see no harm in treating

979
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:52,839
Speaker 3: women as mere images and view making and spreading algorithmically

980
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:56,360
Speaker 3: weaponized revenge porn as a hobby as innocent and timeless

981
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:59,279
Speaker 3: as trading baseball cards. I wrote at the time that

982
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 3: is what the root of deep fakes, and the consequences

983
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:04,560
Speaker 3: of forgetting that are more dire than we can predict.

984
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:07,759
Speaker 2: And yeah, I just really really agree with that.

985
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:10,160
Speaker 3: I think that it's a tech problem and we should

986
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 3: be talking about it as a tech problem, but deeper

987
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 3: than that, it's like a societal and cultural rot at

988
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 3: the heart of our society that we really do have

989
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:22,880
Speaker 3: to deeply address, because the deep fakes is only but

990
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:25,920
Speaker 3: one aspect of how this is showing up in increasingly

991
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:26,840
Speaker 3: dangerous ways.

992
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:31,640
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and I think you've put it so well when

993
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 1: you're it's there's just so many different threads to this.

994
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:38,600
Speaker 1: I can think of so many different episodes we've done

995
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 1: that this rings true, Like I can't even list all

996
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 1: of them, but of course a lot of video game

997
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:46,680
Speaker 1: episodes come to mind for me.

998
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:48,360
Speaker 4: Meloliness epidemic.

999
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:54,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's true. It's like everywhere, and it's I

1000
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 1: think one thing. I know we've used the word alarming

1001
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 1: a lot in this episode, but one thing that really

1002
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:06,800
Speaker 1: struck me in this was that huge rise in the

1003
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:11,560
Speaker 1: request for like non consensual images or just like it

1004
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:16,880
Speaker 1: does feel like it's getting worse. It does feel like

1005
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 1: it's getting worse. And we everybody who's listening and everybody,

1006
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:24,800
Speaker 1: all of us, we know that this has been a problem.

1007
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:28,440
Speaker 1: We've been saying it for a long time, and now

1008
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:30,720
Speaker 1: it's worse.

1009
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 3: I hate to leave it there. I hate to not

1010
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:37,520
Speaker 3: have there be I mean, I think the thing that

1011
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 3: makes me feel a bit hopeful is that I think

1012
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:47,759
Speaker 3: that most people agree that this is despicable. I think

1013
00:56:47,840 --> 00:56:50,759
Speaker 3: that the people who are creating this and benefiting from

1014
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 3: it are a minority of people, and I think that

1015
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:56,640
Speaker 3: there are forces that would like to normalize its behavior,

1016
00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:59,799
Speaker 3: but it's not really taking right, Like it's normal among

1017
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 3: but I don't think. I think that the way that

1018
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 3: people are responding to it, it's clear to me that

1019
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:06,000
Speaker 3: there are more of us that think this kind of

1020
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 3: thing is unacceptable than there are people who are getting

1021
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:10,359
Speaker 3: their rocks off to it. So maybe that's a little

1022
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:12,480
Speaker 3: bit of hope. I do agree it's getting worse, but

1023
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:15,239
Speaker 3: you know, there are more of us than there are

1024
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:15,640
Speaker 3: of them.

1025
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:24,120
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Well, you know, I'm wondering, did you

1026
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:26,920
Speaker 1: say The Social Network has a sequel?

1027
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:32,920
Speaker 2: Yes? Oh my god, Yes it does have a sequel.

1028
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:37,560
Speaker 1: I'm just curious what that would be now. So will

1029
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:39,560
Speaker 1: we ever get an elon MUFK version?

1030
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:40,600
Speaker 2: Oh my god.

1031
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 3: I want Aaron Zorkin to keep making sequels. I want

1032
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:46,440
Speaker 3: it to be like a trilogy. So we've got The

1033
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 3: Social Network too, officially cut titled The Social Reckoning is

1034
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:53,920
Speaker 3: a confirmed sequel companion film written and directed by Aaron Sorkin,

1035
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 3: set for release on October ninth, twenty.

1036
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:58,720
Speaker 2: Twenty six, So coming up not too long.

1037
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:03,280
Speaker 3: It's a blow Facebook's Harmful Social Impacts, based on The

1038
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:08,240
Speaker 3: Facebook File, starring Jeremy Strong as Zuckerberg, Oh Mikey Madsen

1039
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 3: as whistleblower Francis Hogan and Jeremy Allen White.

1040
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 2: You know you go ahead and pencil it in for

1041
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:17,959
Speaker 2: me coming back to to talk about it. Go ahead

1042
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:19,880
Speaker 2: on write that right when you get your calendar together.

1043
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:24,200
Speaker 1: And but I was thinking about it because we still

1044
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 1: haven't done our watch because Samantha's never seen.

1045
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:31,040
Speaker 2: I've never seen it the social network, So watch it

1046
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:31,720
Speaker 2: this weekend.

1047
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:36,040
Speaker 1: I'm wondering how it will hit differently now, That's what

1048
00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:37,920
Speaker 1: I'm curious about, because I haven't watched it in a

1049
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:41,080
Speaker 1: long time. Knowing what we know now, I'm wondering how

1050
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:44,640
Speaker 1: it will hit now. But yeah, I think we should.

1051
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:46,960
Speaker 1: I think we should pencil it in. I think I'll

1052
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 1: get cale see you in October. Well, thank you, thank you,

1053
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 1: thank you so much, Bridget. This was definitely a tough topic.

1054
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 1: So we appreciate you doing the work and doing the

1055
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:04,280
Speaker 1: research and helping us go through it because it is

1056
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:10,120
Speaker 1: so important. And happy happy new Year, and we're looking

1057
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:13,720
Speaker 1: forward to continuing to work together.

1058
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 2: Happy new year to you, Happy new year listeners. Thanks

1059
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:17,880
Speaker 2: for having me.

1060
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:22,480
Speaker 1: Yes, and where can the good listeners find you? Bridget?

1061
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 3: You can listen to my podcast. There are no girls

1062
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:26,760
Speaker 3: on the Internet. You can find me on Instagram at

1063
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:29,280
Speaker 3: bridget Marie and DC and you can check me out

1064
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:31,120
Speaker 3: on YouTube. There are no girls on the internet.

1065
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:34,400
Speaker 1: Yes, and definitely go do that. If you have not

1066
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:39,120
Speaker 1: already listeners, if you would like to contact us, you can.

1067
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:40,920
Speaker 1: You can email us at Hello at stuff I Never

1068
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:42,440
Speaker 1: Told You. You could find us on Blue skyt Mom

1069
00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 1: Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff We

1070
00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:47,880
Speaker 1: Never Told You. We're also on YouTube. We have some

1071
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:49,760
Speaker 1: merchandise at cop Bureau and we have a book you

1072
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:51,760
Speaker 1: can get wherever you get your books. Thanks as always

1073
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:54,720
Speaker 1: too our super due Christine or executive pducer my undercomputer Joey.

1074
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:56,680
Speaker 2: Thank you and thanks you for listening.

1075
00:59:56,920 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 1: Stuff I Never Told You is production of by Heart

1076
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:00,320
Speaker 1: Radio FORUR podcasts from my Heart Radio, chck out the

1077
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:02,280
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or if you listen to

1078
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:03,120
Speaker 1: your favorite shows