WEBVTT - Pfizer’s Second Gut Punch Shows Pitfalls of Weight-Loss Pills 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.400 Hey, it's Carol and Tim and we have something new 0:00:02.440 --> 0:00:03.280 and exciting for you. 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:06.360 Everything you love about Bloomberg Radio is now in your car. 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:09.639 The new Bloomberg Business App now featuring Apple CarPlay and 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:10.280 Android Auto. 0:00:10.440 --> 0:00:13.960 Listen to your favorite Bloomberg Radio stations anytime. 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:17.000 Plus every Bloomberg podcast, the latest news, and more, all 0:00:17.079 --> 0:00:18.120 at the click of a button. 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:21.240 It's free and simple to use. Just download the Bloomberg 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:23.680 Business App on your smartphone and connect your phone to 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:24.200 your car. 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:27.360 The Bloomberg Business App now with Apple CarPlay and Android 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:30.200 Auto features. Download it free in the Apple App Store 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:31.400 or on Google Play. 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:34.600 Presented by our sponsor, Interactive Brokers. 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:40.040 This is Bloomberg Business Week inside from the reporters and 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:43.800 editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:47.760 gloom O Business Finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:53.280 Week Podcast with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:55.280 Shares a. 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:58.120 Pfizer down more than five percent here their biggest interday 0:00:58.160 --> 0:00:59.800 loss in more than three and a half years at 0:00:59.800 --> 0:01:03.280 two at Not So Easy turning out a weight loss drug. 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:07.520 And we did have news earlier today Pfizer dropping development 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:10.080 of a twice daily version of it's a BCD pill. 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:12.280 There were a bunch of side effects. So let's get 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:14.399 to it on the beat with us Bloomberg News health 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:17.080 reporter Madison Mueller. She's back here in our Bloomberg Interactive 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:19.560 Brokers studio here with Balley and myself. 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:21.320 So all right, what do we know about this? 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:25.240 Yeah, So Pfizer has been developing a twice daily weight 0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:29.200 loss pill and a pill, A pill, a pill. So 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:32.880 that's which we've talked about before. Pfizer Astrozenica some of 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:35.120 the drug makers that are not yet in this space 0:01:35.200 --> 0:01:37.920 but want to be, because all of the pharmaceutical companies 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:41.160 want to be are looking to pills, you know, as 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:44.800 an inroad into this market. Because there's only one pill 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:46.680 on the market right now, it's a pill version of 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:48.840 ozembic and it's not very good for weight loss. So 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:51.720 this is an opportunity for other drug makers to get 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:55.120 in this space. And that's what Peiser sees, especially as 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:59.000 Pfizer has really taken a hit this year as demand 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:02.000 for its covid product, it's covid shot have sort of faded. 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:04.600 It's looking toward the next big thing, that being weight loss. 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:05.960 Forty three percent this year. 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:09.079 Yeah, the opposite of Novo, which is up forty nine 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:11.160 percent in Lily, which is up closer to sixty Right. 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:13.520 Yeah, we're definitely saying a shift in the weight of 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:16.000 covid to weight loss unintended. 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:19.320 What's crazy is Pfizer is massive. It's one hundred and 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:22.600 sixty two billion dollar market cap, and that I get it. 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:24.160 They're always doing a lot of R and D and 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:27.360 looking for those you know, blockbuster drugs. Having said that, 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:31.560 did they really just bet so much on covid that 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:34.440 it was going to keep kind of the revenue engine going. 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:37.240 Yeah, And I mean they've they've looked at other infectious 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:40.320 disease like RSV and and they're investing more in cancer. 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:43.640 But it's just it's not giving the same lift that 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:46.000 Covid did, and like these weight loss drugs now are 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:49.480 doing for these other companies. So, you know, and what 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:52.280 we've seen is the market is reacting so much to 0:02:52.520 --> 0:02:54.520 all of the news about these weight loss drugs. Every 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:56.800 time there's a new study out, there's ripple effects you know, 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:00.480 to far reaching in weight loss drugs this year, right, 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:05.399 it's just very disruptive, and so to have a negative 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:08.720 result is something that I mean, the company doesn't want 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:11.000 to see, investors don't want to see. And that is 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:14.000 what we saw with this twice daily pill in this study, 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:15.639 is that the side of there were so many side 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:17.960 effects that over half of the patients in the trial 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:18.920 had to stop taking it. 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:20.920 And is this a space they have to be in 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:24.440 because they still have a single dose daily drug they're 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:25.239 studying right. 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:28.240 Right exactly, And so that's sort of what they're pinning 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:28.840 their hopes on. 0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:29.120 Now. 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:31.800 We're going to get data from that once daily pill 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:34.280 study in the first half of twenty twenty four, and 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:37.200 you know, we'll see what happens with that. 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:39.680 If it doesn't work, do they have to acquire company 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:41.560 because they're still trying to acquire Segon right. 0:03:41.560 --> 0:03:44.000 That's a big deal, right right space. And that's the thing. 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:47.040 I mean, some companies are looking to their own pipelines 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:49.280 to see what they can advance forward. The analysts that 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:51.240 I've spoken to have said that when it comes to Ffiser, 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:53.280 they probably will have to do some m and A 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:56.440 or have to acquire some company in order to bring 0:03:57.040 --> 0:04:00.480 a viable asset into their pipeline. Which the good news 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:03.400 for them there is there are so many small biotech 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:06.520 companies now that are developing pretty innovative products. I mean, 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:09.000 biotechs really see this as a space where they can 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:11.960 potentially benefit, and so there are options out there. 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:14.320 But how much are they behind though? If they buy 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:17.400 a company that's in phase one study so very early stage, 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:20.320 are they still trying to catch up to Lilly, Novo 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:20.800 and others. 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:23.760 Yeah, and they are behind, But I think at the 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:25.520 end of the day, it's going to be about what 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:29.760 is the best product, because right now, the weight loss 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:34.239 pills that Novo's developing are not super They're not easy 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:37.080 to take. It's like you have to take it in 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:40.000 the morning every single day before eating food and then 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:43.160 wait thirty minutes to eat. So it's not exactly easier 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:47.400 necessarily than a once a week shot. And what we've 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:50.160 seen is just different side effects with the pills. They're 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:54.080 not any less expensive right now, at least than the shots, 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:57.360 and so there is space for these other drug makers 0:04:57.440 --> 0:05:00.040 to get into this market, even if it's later. The 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:01.520 product is better at the end of the day. 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:02.280 You know, it's interesting. 0:05:02.640 --> 0:05:05.520 There's a stack that's on my gainer's list today, Altimmune, 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:07.960 right and it's rallying because they gave some top line 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:11.159 results and they did amidst stage trial of their GLP 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:14.160 one therapy to treeoh PCD. So you're right, like there's 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:18.120 these a lot of smaller players out there. Having said that, 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:21.840 what's is it trickier in terms of a pill versus 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:22.400 a shot? 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:22.880 Yeah? 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:23.159 It is. 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:23.760 It's harder. 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:27.000 It's even though pills are sort of once you have 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:29.840 the formula down, they're a little bit easier to manufacture 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:34.880 a store transport, but the science behind developing a pill 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:37.360 is actually a little bit more difficult. And what we've 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:39.159 seen with the pills so far is that they just 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:41.520 don't cause as much weight loss as the shots do 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:44.039 because of sort of how they're metabolized in the body. 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:47.599 There are some more concerns about liver toxicity and things 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:49.599 like that. So it's actually a little bit trickier to 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:50.240 develop a pill. 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:51.560 But it's the Holy Grail, isn't it? 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:51.880 For this? 0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:55.360 I think that's how that's how the drugmakers see it, Yeah, exactly, 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:57.799 because I mean not everyone wants to take an injection 0:05:57.839 --> 0:05:59.000 every week or every day. 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:02.159 So have you gotten a sense from analysts and investors 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:04.880 if they do? See I mean just thinking if I 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:07.080 have to take a shot, but at least I'm losing 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:10.160 far more weight that weighs into the risk reward. 0:06:10.240 --> 0:06:12.440 No, yeah, I mean that's what ELI Lilly thinks. I mean, 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:16.800 they really still see a market in injectibles for them, 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:19.840 you know, for their business, and they have said, even 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:23.560 though Lily has struggled with supply shortages primarily due to 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:26.680 the injector puts that they use, and so pills for 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:30.040 them is something that actually could help with their supply issues. 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:33.720 But they're you know, there's their executives are saying, We're 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:35.960 not waiting for a pill to sort of save us 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:39.160 from these supply problems. We're investing billions of dollars now, 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:41.760 and we still really see a market for these injectibles. 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:43.400 Talk to us about your beat, because you just came 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:45.400 back from Eli Lilly, you spent some time with them, 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:47.000 you know, tell us if you can what you can 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:47.840 share about the visit. 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:49.320 Yeah, in this space. 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:51.960 Yeah, I mean, it's it's interesting because Lily is one 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:54.320 of the oldest pharmaceutical companies. I mean, they've been around 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:57.679 for over one hundred years. They really got their start 0:06:57.760 --> 0:07:01.120 commercializing insulin in nineteen twenty three, so they've been in 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:04.520 this diabetes space for forever, and that's why they're at 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:08.520 them and no Vote nineteen twenty three commercialized insulin. So 0:07:08.680 --> 0:07:11.560 for a century, these drug makers have been head to 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:14.800 head in diabetes, continuing to innovate, and that's sort of 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:17.120 why we're in That's why we are where we are 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:19.400 today with both of them being at the forefront of 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:22.720 this weight loss market because the science and the investment 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:25.560 that they've put into diabetes has led to these weight 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:26.360 loss drugs. 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:28.640 It makes so much sense because if you think about 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:31.520 is it forty fifty percent of the population right that 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:34.600 are either diabetic or pre diabetic. I mean, it's just massive. 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:36.800 And that's just I think the United States alone. So 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:39.160 you understand why all of these drug companies have been 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:41.920 in that space because it's a massive market. But their 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:44.840 continuation of R and D has led us to kind 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:45.600 of where we are today. 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:48.040 Yeah, and it's interesting because you know, I don't know 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:51.280 if everyone knows this, but Lily is the company that 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:55.440 had Prozac, and so it's interesting to hear Lily talk 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:59.119 about the comparison between Prozac and now their weight loss drugs, 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:01.520 zet Bound because they said, you know, when we brought 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:03.720 prozac to market. There was a lot of stigma and 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:07.320 controversy around depression, and people thought depression wasn't a real 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:09.240 disease and that it was, you know, something that could 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:12.400 just be fixed with, you know, making yourself feel better 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:15.360 or whatever, going for a walk outside didn't really There 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:17.200 was a lot of that enigmas. Yeah, and they were 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:19.600 saying same thing with obesity. So we're sort of like 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:22.360 at the forefront. We were at the forefront of depression 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:25.960 treatments and now obesity treatments and trying to break the 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:28.200 stigma around that is part of this as well. 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:30.280 Did you get a chance to ask them their thoughts 0:08:30.280 --> 0:08:34.520 on whether they're reshaping McDonald's business model and Krispy Kreme 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:36.920 and whether or not requested? Yeah, airlines are going to 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:38.720 make more money because they require less fuel. 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:39.080 Yeah. 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:41.080 I mean they all kind of laugh it off, especially 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:43.760 like the airlines comments and the Walmart comments. I think 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:46.120 to these drug makers and to like I've talked to 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:48.679 a lot of the scientists that discovered these you know, 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:52.400 peptides and gut hormones back in the seventies and eighties, 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:56.280 and they're like, we never would have thought that this 0:08:56.360 --> 0:08:58.400 would have turned into what it is today. You know, 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:01.400 back in the seventies and eighties is literally no one 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:03.760 cared about what we were doing. And then now the 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:06.280 CEO of Walmart is saying that it's affecting, you know, 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:09.520 the weight of baskets and stores like this is unbelievable, 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:11.040 but you know that's science. 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:13.160 I think it also cut all of us off guard. 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:15.560 You have people also talking about apparel makers that you know, 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:16.920 you're gonna lose weight and you have to go out 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:18.920 and you know, buy a new wardrobe and stuff. So 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:22.720 it's kind of coming out in some very very different ways. 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:26.920 Fascinating beat, fascinating story. Love hearing about it. And it 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:28.320 sounds like Pfizer's not done yet. 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:30.520 Yeah, they're not done yet. We'll wait to see what 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:32.800 happens in the first half of twenty twenty four. 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:34.560 I guess one of our big themes, as I like 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:36.679 to say, TVD, TBD, about a lot of things right 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:38.920 now in our world. All right, Carol Master Alone with 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:41.800 Bailly Lipshelt, Madison Muller, Bloomberg News Health reporter, Thank you 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:42.280 so much. 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:46.920 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:50.280 live weekday afternoons from three to six Eastern listen on 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:54.400 Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app and the Bloomberg Business app, 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:58.640 or watch us live on YouTube, so you would. 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:02.480 Get tip too, a messets raging. What's up with that 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:05.840 NonStop rallies. I mean, even you look at the strength, 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:08.640 and this was before the market rally in November. We 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:10.800 saw it popping off in the second half of October, 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:13.800 going from about twenty seven thousand dollars a token to 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:15.880 north of thirty four thousand. 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:17.640 It's quite a pop. And I'm even just looking at 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:18.320 the trade today. 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:23.480 You know, Bitcoin's Epithereum's up, Cardono's up, Solana's up. If 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:26.319 you look at the Bloomberg Galaxy Crypto Index at eighteen 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:29.920 percent November, Bitcoin up about nine percent this past month, 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:31.760 and it's at its highest level of the year. 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:34.840 Hi run, highest level since May of last year. So 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:38.360 we're seeing it really continuing to hit its strident trading 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:40.040 back towards that forty thousand dollars level. 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:43.560 Bloomberg writing that bitcoins chances of hitting forty thousand dollars 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:46.760 top of mine crypto speculators they hit into the final 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:48.520 stretch of the year, so they're thinking can it go 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:52.160 even further, so something to kind of think about. There's 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:55.200 a lot going on though, and we are definitely see 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:58.280 as everybody expects, maybe the FED is done even thinking 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:01.280 about rates cutting. The risk trade is definitely on that 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:04.320 includes crypto. So what might twenty twenty four brings. So 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:07.520 let's get to it with our next guest. Corey Clipston 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:11.120 is CEO at Swan Bitcoin. It's the bitcoin only accumulation platform, 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:14.200 and he is back with us on Zoom from La Corey, 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:15.920 good to have you here with Bailey myself. 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:16.400 How are you. 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:19.240 I'm doing well, Carol, and thank you so much for 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:21.520 having me on and Bailey. Nice to be here with 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:23.800 you as well. I missed Tim. That's my usual guy. 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:27.240 Say he's your guy, I will say hello. Talk to 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:29.000 us about the activity you guys have been seeing as 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:31.560 of late, especially as we've seen a move up. It 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:34.080 feels like across the board when it comes to crypto. 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:37.160 Yeah, I mean we're in the good fortune to have 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:39.560 customers who like to buy when the price is down 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:41.880 as well, kind of the true believer crowd in the 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:46.280 bitcoin space. But absolutely influx of new users and big 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:49.040 spike in volumes. Really over the last two months. When 0:11:49.080 --> 0:11:50.920 you saw that rise that you guys were just talking 0:11:50.920 --> 0:11:53.320 about from twenty five to call it thirty five thirty six, 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:55.960 and now it seems like we might have some legs. 0:11:56.200 --> 0:12:00.160 Feels very related to the latest round of news comeing 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:06.000 out of SEC whisperers about an ETF in January. But yeah, 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:08.560 this move seems to have some legs up above thirty 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:09.600 eight k head into forty. 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:13.160 Yeah, and we saw Bloomberg Intelligence expects that ETF approvals 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:16.199 are starting mid January. Is that your expectation and kind 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:18.640 of how does that change the game for bitcoin? 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:23.440 Yeah, it is probably my base case is that window 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:27.040 that now seems to have been narrowed to January eighth, ninth, tenth, 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:29.120 something in there. And that seems to make a lot 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:31.559 of sense given all the signals that we've gotten out 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:34.040 of the SEC and folks in the know. And I 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:37.400 think it changes quite a bit for bitcoin. And primarily 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:40.040 the story that I'm looking at is for the past 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:44.559 six years, from twenty seventeen through twenty twenty three, the 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:47.480 top of funnel for people looking to get into bitcoin 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:51.960 has been extremely noisy, polluted by all of the crypto 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:55.760 marketing schemes funded by fifty billion dollars of venture capital 0:12:55.800 --> 0:13:01.160 trying to essentially market and dump crypto token. And now 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:04.760 you're replacing that with signal coming from the largest, most 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:08.240 trusted financial institutions on the globe, who are going to 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:11.120 be talking about the real signal in the space, which 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:13.800 is bitcoin very distinct from the rest of non bitcoin 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:16.720 crypto and that is now the top of funnel for bitcoin. 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:20.000 And it's a decent product. It's an IOU into an 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:22.800 ETF and it's kind of you know, it is paper bitcoin, 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:24.600 but it is backed. They have to buy the bitcoin, 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:27.520 it's not futures based. And I think that's a great 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:30.000 top of funnel for people to get into bitcoin and 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:31.480 then if they want to go a little deeper and 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:35.400 explore it and hold more. What we've seen historically is 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:37.680 that as people buy more and learn more, they take 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:39.880 self custody, and so they're going to graduate from that 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:42.280 ETF product into holding real bitcoin core. 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:44.400 What do you know about who's buying the demographics of 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:47.559 actually crypto buyers, bitcoin buyers in particular. 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:52.280 Yeah, so the buying public is, as you can imagine, 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:56.280 very widespread. It's easier to make the pitch two gen 0:13:56.400 --> 0:14:01.520 z and millennials who aren't as encumbered by historical understandings 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:04.000 and kind of receive knowledge about the financial system. But 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:06.760 then when you look at it from an actual dollars in, 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:09.760 it obviously skews toward the boomers and the gen X 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:11.720 that actually have more money to be able to put in. 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:15.400 So you see more customers coming from the youth of 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:18.000 the country, but more dollars coming from those that are 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:20.040 more established and have more money today. 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:22.560 How much more volumes up? You said you've noticed some 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:24.880 significant trends, but give us an idea. Can you give 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:26.360 us some numbers? I'm just curious about. 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:28.080 Yeah, sure, because it gives us an idea. 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:30.640 You're kind of one of the kind of feel like 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:33.880 ultimate risk trades, So it gives us an idea of 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:35.960 kind of what's an investor's mind, because we just had 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:37.640 what was it, money market funds? 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:39.600 Was it yesterday? Hit a record high? 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:41.440 So I'm just curious in trying to make sense of 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:45.160 kind of the investment environment overall, not apples to apples. 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:48.480 First, I think I do have to address this idea 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:52.640 of bitcoin being a risk on trade, because that's counter 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:55.880 to how it's being marketed by the ETF guys. They're 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:59.600 talking about it as a safe haven and risk off, 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:05.680 so that narrative is being changed. And again it's all around. 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:08.800 It's not an inflation hedge in the terms of CPI, 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:12.080 but it's an inflation hedge in the terms of monetary inflation. 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:16.520 It's a hedge against printing more money, the original definition 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:18.720 of inflation. So I think that is a really interesting 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:21.920 thing to note. As far as volumes up about one 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:24.840 hundred percent, I would say in the last couple of months, 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:27.600 if you kind of just looked at September versus November, 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:30.680 which we're closing right now, it was probably up about 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:32.800 two x November over September. 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:34.960 Is there a risk that this can be a sell 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:37.160 the news event, though, with so much excitement and that 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:40.760 jump that you were talking about from October to now. 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:45.720 There is no such thing in any asset, including bitcoin, 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:48.800 of a straight walk up in a straight line to 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:52.080 some price that everyone expects in the future, because people 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:54.280 will always front run that and get exuberant and then 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:58.120 it'll always crash down. There has never been a large 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:01.840 bowl market swing in bitcoin that hasn't had a pullback 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:04.280 along the way of forty or fifty percent down, So 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:07.120 you know, I do believe that we are in the 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:12.320 early stages of what is very likely, given macroeconomic factors 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:15.600 and given domestic factors with the ETFs, et cetera, and 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:18.440 just kind of more people understanding what bitcoin is, that 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:21.200 we'll see another big bowl market at some time in 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:23.480 the future. And I think it's very likely that it 0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:26.240 happens over the next couple of years. But hearing that, 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:28.800 we will absolutely see big drawdowns. 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:30.760 Too, you know, career one of the things, you know, 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:33.760 kind of we kicked off talking about the expectations for 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:36.760 a spot a US pot Bitcoin ETF next year, and 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:39.520 so that has certainly given some enthusiasm back to the market. 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:42.000 But I also think about the legal overhang, and we 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:45.120 got rid of two big things SBF and FTX, and 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:50.320 also Binance, big deal, big settlement. I'm just curious there's 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:52.600 crack and still out there, right, there's some legal concerns. 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:55.760 I just wonder how you think about some of the 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:58.720 legal woes or surprises that could still certainly creep up 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:00.320 when it comes to this market. 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:05.440 Yeah, it seems that bitcoin stands apart from everything that's 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:08.879 been going on in the crypto space, right, every single 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:12.399 non bitcoin crypto runs the risk of being targeted as 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:16.200 a security by the SEC in the United States, and 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:22.240 any crypto platform that isn't playing by the rules, let's 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:24.960 say as they exist on the books, runs the risk 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:29.160 of running a foul of a MLKYC violations money laundering. Essentially, 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:34.040 if they've been too loose with their customer onboarding and monitoring, 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:38.240 then it's very likely that they, whether purposefully or accidentally, 0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:43.480 have facilitated bad people doing bad things on their platform, 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:46.840 as the DOJ has made very clear with respect to finance. 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:49.639 So really, in your view, bitcoin is insulated from those 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:53.359 concerns and issues and bad actors, and that the clearing 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:55.199 out is bullish for the token. 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:58.159 So if you're a bitcoin only company and you do 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:00.200 things on the up and up just like any other company, 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:02.399 you don't really have to worry about these sorts of things. 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:06.639 As far as Bitcoin as a monetary technology and payment rails, 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:10.240 it's technology, just like the dollar is technology, and bad 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:13.320 people will do bad things with money. So they can 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:15.720 use bitcoin, they can use dollars, they can use euros, 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:18.560 you on and yen to make transactions. There's nothing you 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:20.119 can do about that. It's just technology. 0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:20.760 It's neutral. 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:22.960 What is you know, we just got about thirty forty 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:24.679 seconds left here, Corey, as we wrap up, as you 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:27.239 look ahead to twenty twenty four, you sound optimistic. I 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:29.199 hear it, no doubt about it, and it's it is 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:32.160 your book. But what is it that you do get 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:35.479 concerned about when it comes to the crypto environment. What 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:38.760 is the one possible downside that maybe might be top 0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:41.200