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Speaker 4: Shares a.
Speaker 2: Pfizer down more than five percent here their biggest interday
Speaker 2: loss in more than three and a half years at
Speaker 2: two at Not So Easy turning out a weight loss drug.
Speaker 2: And we did have news earlier today Pfizer dropping development
Speaker 2: of a twice daily version of it's a BCD pill.
Speaker 2: There were a bunch of side effects. So let's get
Speaker 2: to it on the beat with us Bloomberg News health
Speaker 2: reporter Madison Mueller. She's back here in our Bloomberg Interactive
Speaker 2: Brokers studio here with Balley and myself.
Speaker 4: So all right, what do we know about this?
Speaker 5: Yeah, So Pfizer has been developing a twice daily weight
Speaker 5: loss pill and a pill, A pill, a pill. So
Speaker 5: that's which we've talked about before. Pfizer Astrozenica some of
Speaker 5: the drug makers that are not yet in this space
Speaker 5: but want to be, because all of the pharmaceutical companies
Speaker 5: want to be are looking to pills, you know, as
Speaker 5: an inroad into this market. Because there's only one pill
Speaker 5: on the market right now, it's a pill version of
Speaker 5: ozembic and it's not very good for weight loss. So
Speaker 5: this is an opportunity for other drug makers to get
Speaker 5: in this space. And that's what Peiser sees, especially as
Speaker 5: Pfizer has really taken a hit this year as demand
Speaker 5: for its covid product, it's covid shot have sort of faded.
Speaker 5: It's looking toward the next big thing, that being weight loss.
Speaker 4: Forty three percent this year.
Speaker 6: Yeah, the opposite of Novo, which is up forty nine
Speaker 6: percent in Lily, which is up closer to sixty Right.
Speaker 5: Yeah, we're definitely saying a shift in the weight of
Speaker 5: covid to weight loss unintended.
Speaker 2: What's crazy is Pfizer is massive. It's one hundred and
Speaker 2: sixty two billion dollar market cap, and that I get it.
Speaker 2: They're always doing a lot of R and D and
Speaker 2: looking for those you know, blockbuster drugs. Having said that,
Speaker 2: did they really just bet so much on covid that
Speaker 2: it was going to keep kind of the revenue engine going.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I mean they've they've looked at other infectious
Speaker 5: disease like RSV and and they're investing more in cancer.
Speaker 5: But it's just it's not giving the same lift that
Speaker 5: Covid did, and like these weight loss drugs now are
Speaker 5: doing for these other companies. So, you know, and what
Speaker 5: we've seen is the market is reacting so much to
Speaker 5: all of the news about these weight loss drugs. Every
Speaker 5: time there's a new study out, there's ripple effects you know,
Speaker 5: to far reaching in weight loss drugs this year, right,
Speaker 5: it's just very disruptive, and so to have a negative
Speaker 5: result is something that I mean, the company doesn't want
Speaker 5: to see, investors don't want to see. And that is
Speaker 5: what we saw with this twice daily pill in this study,
Speaker 5: is that the side of there were so many side
Speaker 5: effects that over half of the patients in the trial
Speaker 5: had to stop taking it.
Speaker 6: And is this a space they have to be in
Speaker 6: because they still have a single dose daily drug they're
Speaker 6: studying right.
Speaker 5: Right exactly, And so that's sort of what they're pinning
Speaker 5: their hopes on.
Speaker 7: Now.
Speaker 5: We're going to get data from that once daily pill
Speaker 5: study in the first half of twenty twenty four, and
Speaker 5: you know, we'll see what happens with that.
Speaker 6: If it doesn't work, do they have to acquire company
Speaker 6: because they're still trying to acquire Segon right.
Speaker 4: That's a big deal, right right space. And that's the thing.
Speaker 5: I mean, some companies are looking to their own pipelines
Speaker 5: to see what they can advance forward. The analysts that
Speaker 5: I've spoken to have said that when it comes to Ffiser,
Speaker 5: they probably will have to do some m and A
Speaker 5: or have to acquire some company in order to bring
Speaker 5: a viable asset into their pipeline. Which the good news
Speaker 5: for them there is there are so many small biotech
Speaker 5: companies now that are developing pretty innovative products. I mean,
Speaker 5: biotechs really see this as a space where they can
Speaker 5: potentially benefit, and so there are options out there.
Speaker 6: But how much are they behind though? If they buy
Speaker 6: a company that's in phase one study so very early stage,
Speaker 6: are they still trying to catch up to Lilly, Novo
Speaker 6: and others.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and they are behind, But I think at the
Speaker 5: end of the day, it's going to be about what
Speaker 5: is the best product, because right now, the weight loss
Speaker 5: pills that Novo's developing are not super They're not easy
Speaker 5: to take. It's like you have to take it in
Speaker 5: the morning every single day before eating food and then
Speaker 5: wait thirty minutes to eat. So it's not exactly easier
Speaker 5: necessarily than a once a week shot. And what we've
Speaker 5: seen is just different side effects with the pills. They're
Speaker 5: not any less expensive right now, at least than the shots,
Speaker 5: and so there is space for these other drug makers
Speaker 5: to get into this market, even if it's later. The
Speaker 5: product is better at the end of the day.
Speaker 4: You know, it's interesting.
Speaker 2: There's a stack that's on my gainer's list today, Altimmune,
Speaker 2: right and it's rallying because they gave some top line
Speaker 2: results and they did amidst stage trial of their GLP
Speaker 2: one therapy to treeoh PCD. So you're right, like there's
Speaker 2: these a lot of smaller players out there. Having said that,
Speaker 2: what's is it trickier in terms of a pill versus
Speaker 2: a shot?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 7: It is.
Speaker 4: It's harder.
Speaker 5: It's even though pills are sort of once you have
Speaker 5: the formula down, they're a little bit easier to manufacture
Speaker 5: a store transport, but the science behind developing a pill
Speaker 5: is actually a little bit more difficult. And what we've
Speaker 5: seen with the pills so far is that they just
Speaker 5: don't cause as much weight loss as the shots do
Speaker 5: because of sort of how they're metabolized in the body.
Speaker 5: There are some more concerns about liver toxicity and things
Speaker 5: like that. So it's actually a little bit trickier to
Speaker 5: develop a pill.
Speaker 4: But it's the Holy Grail, isn't it?
Speaker 3: For this?
Speaker 5: I think that's how that's how the drugmakers see it, Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 5: because I mean not everyone wants to take an injection
Speaker 5: every week or every day.
Speaker 6: So have you gotten a sense from analysts and investors
Speaker 6: if they do? See I mean just thinking if I
Speaker 6: have to take a shot, but at least I'm losing
Speaker 6: far more weight that weighs into the risk reward.
Speaker 5: No, yeah, I mean that's what ELI Lilly thinks. I mean,
Speaker 5: they really still see a market in injectibles for them,
Speaker 5: you know, for their business, and they have said, even
Speaker 5: though Lily has struggled with supply shortages primarily due to
Speaker 5: the injector puts that they use, and so pills for
Speaker 5: them is something that actually could help with their supply issues.
Speaker 5: But they're you know, there's their executives are saying, We're
Speaker 5: not waiting for a pill to sort of save us
Speaker 5: from these supply problems. We're investing billions of dollars now,
Speaker 5: and we still really see a market for these injectibles.
Speaker 2: Talk to us about your beat, because you just came
Speaker 2: back from Eli Lilly, you spent some time with them,
Speaker 2: you know, tell us if you can what you can
Speaker 2: share about the visit.
Speaker 4: Yeah, in this space.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, it's it's interesting because Lily is one
Speaker 5: of the oldest pharmaceutical companies. I mean, they've been around
Speaker 5: for over one hundred years. They really got their start
Speaker 5: commercializing insulin in nineteen twenty three, so they've been in
Speaker 5: this diabetes space for forever, and that's why they're at
Speaker 5: them and no Vote nineteen twenty three commercialized insulin. So
Speaker 5: for a century, these drug makers have been head to
Speaker 5: head in diabetes, continuing to innovate, and that's sort of
Speaker 5: why we're in That's why we are where we are
Speaker 5: today with both of them being at the forefront of
Speaker 5: this weight loss market because the science and the investment
Speaker 5: that they've put into diabetes has led to these weight
Speaker 5: loss drugs.
Speaker 2: It makes so much sense because if you think about
Speaker 2: is it forty fifty percent of the population right that
Speaker 2: are either diabetic or pre diabetic. I mean, it's just massive.
Speaker 2: And that's just I think the United States alone. So
Speaker 2: you understand why all of these drug companies have been
Speaker 2: in that space because it's a massive market. But their
Speaker 2: continuation of R and D has led us to kind
Speaker 2: of where we are today.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's interesting because you know, I don't know
Speaker 5: if everyone knows this, but Lily is the company that
Speaker 5: had Prozac, and so it's interesting to hear Lily talk
Speaker 5: about the comparison between Prozac and now their weight loss drugs,
Speaker 5: zet Bound because they said, you know, when we brought
Speaker 5: prozac to market. There was a lot of stigma and
Speaker 5: controversy around depression, and people thought depression wasn't a real
Speaker 5: disease and that it was, you know, something that could
Speaker 5: just be fixed with, you know, making yourself feel better
Speaker 5: or whatever, going for a walk outside didn't really There
Speaker 5: was a lot of that enigmas. Yeah, and they were
Speaker 5: saying same thing with obesity. So we're sort of like
Speaker 5: at the forefront. We were at the forefront of depression
Speaker 5: treatments and now obesity treatments and trying to break the
Speaker 5: stigma around that is part of this as well.
Speaker 6: Did you get a chance to ask them their thoughts
Speaker 6: on whether they're reshaping McDonald's business model and Krispy Kreme
Speaker 6: and whether or not requested? Yeah, airlines are going to
Speaker 6: make more money because they require less fuel.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I mean they all kind of laugh it off, especially
Speaker 5: like the airlines comments and the Walmart comments. I think
Speaker 5: to these drug makers and to like I've talked to
Speaker 5: a lot of the scientists that discovered these you know,
Speaker 5: peptides and gut hormones back in the seventies and eighties,
Speaker 5: and they're like, we never would have thought that this
Speaker 5: would have turned into what it is today. You know,
Speaker 5: back in the seventies and eighties is literally no one
Speaker 5: cared about what we were doing. And then now the
Speaker 5: CEO of Walmart is saying that it's affecting, you know,
Speaker 5: the weight of baskets and stores like this is unbelievable,
Speaker 5: but you know that's science.
Speaker 2: I think it also cut all of us off guard.
Speaker 2: You have people also talking about apparel makers that you know,
Speaker 2: you're gonna lose weight and you have to go out
Speaker 2: and you know, buy a new wardrobe and stuff. So
Speaker 2: it's kind of coming out in some very very different ways.
Speaker 2: Fascinating beat, fascinating story. Love hearing about it. And it
Speaker 2: sounds like Pfizer's not done yet.
Speaker 5: Yeah, they're not done yet. We'll wait to see what
Speaker 5: happens in the first half of twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2: I guess one of our big themes, as I like
Speaker 2: to say, TVD, TBD, about a lot of things right
Speaker 2: now in our world. All right, Carol Master Alone with
Speaker 2: Bailly Lipshelt, Madison Muller, Bloomberg News Health reporter, Thank you
Speaker 2: so much.
Speaker 3: You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us
Speaker 3: live weekday afternoons from three to six Eastern listen on
Speaker 3: Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app and the Bloomberg Business app,
Speaker 3: or watch us live on YouTube, so you would.
Speaker 6: Get tip too, a messets raging. What's up with that
Speaker 6: NonStop rallies. I mean, even you look at the strength,
Speaker 6: and this was before the market rally in November. We
Speaker 6: saw it popping off in the second half of October,
Speaker 6: going from about twenty seven thousand dollars a token to
Speaker 6: north of thirty four thousand.
Speaker 4: It's quite a pop. And I'm even just looking at
Speaker 4: the trade today.
Speaker 2: You know, Bitcoin's Epithereum's up, Cardono's up, Solana's up. If
Speaker 2: you look at the Bloomberg Galaxy Crypto Index at eighteen
Speaker 2: percent November, Bitcoin up about nine percent this past month,
Speaker 2: and it's at its highest level of the year.
Speaker 6: Hi run, highest level since May of last year. So
Speaker 6: we're seeing it really continuing to hit its strident trading
Speaker 6: back towards that forty thousand dollars level.
Speaker 2: Bloomberg writing that bitcoins chances of hitting forty thousand dollars
Speaker 2: top of mine crypto speculators they hit into the final
Speaker 2: stretch of the year, so they're thinking can it go
Speaker 2: even further, so something to kind of think about. There's
Speaker 2: a lot going on though, and we are definitely see
Speaker 2: as everybody expects, maybe the FED is done even thinking
Speaker 2: about rates cutting. The risk trade is definitely on that
Speaker 2: includes crypto. So what might twenty twenty four brings. So
Speaker 2: let's get to it with our next guest. Corey Clipston
Speaker 2: is CEO at Swan Bitcoin. It's the bitcoin only accumulation platform,
Speaker 2: and he is back with us on Zoom from La Corey,
Speaker 2: good to have you here with Bailey myself.
Speaker 9: How are you.
Speaker 10: I'm doing well, Carol, and thank you so much for
Speaker 10: having me on and Bailey. Nice to be here with
Speaker 10: you as well. I missed Tim. That's my usual guy.
Speaker 2: Say he's your guy, I will say hello. Talk to
Speaker 2: us about the activity you guys have been seeing as
Speaker 2: of late, especially as we've seen a move up. It
Speaker 2: feels like across the board when it comes to crypto.
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean we're in the good fortune to have
Speaker 10: customers who like to buy when the price is down
Speaker 10: as well, kind of the true believer crowd in the
Speaker 10: bitcoin space. But absolutely influx of new users and big
Speaker 10: spike in volumes. Really over the last two months. When
Speaker 10: you saw that rise that you guys were just talking
Speaker 10: about from twenty five to call it thirty five thirty six,
Speaker 10: and now it seems like we might have some legs.
Speaker 10: Feels very related to the latest round of news comeing
Speaker 10: out of SEC whisperers about an ETF in January. But yeah,
Speaker 10: this move seems to have some legs up above thirty
Speaker 10: eight k head into forty.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and we saw Bloomberg Intelligence expects that ETF approvals
Speaker 6: are starting mid January. Is that your expectation and kind
Speaker 6: of how does that change the game for bitcoin?
Speaker 10: Yeah, it is probably my base case is that window
Speaker 10: that now seems to have been narrowed to January eighth, ninth, tenth,
Speaker 10: something in there. And that seems to make a lot
Speaker 10: of sense given all the signals that we've gotten out
Speaker 10: of the SEC and folks in the know. And I
Speaker 10: think it changes quite a bit for bitcoin. And primarily
Speaker 10: the story that I'm looking at is for the past
Speaker 10: six years, from twenty seventeen through twenty twenty three, the
Speaker 10: top of funnel for people looking to get into bitcoin
Speaker 10: has been extremely noisy, polluted by all of the crypto
Speaker 10: marketing schemes funded by fifty billion dollars of venture capital
Speaker 10: trying to essentially market and dump crypto token. And now
Speaker 10: you're replacing that with signal coming from the largest, most
Speaker 10: trusted financial institutions on the globe, who are going to
Speaker 10: be talking about the real signal in the space, which
Speaker 10: is bitcoin very distinct from the rest of non bitcoin
Speaker 10: crypto and that is now the top of funnel for bitcoin.
Speaker 10: And it's a decent product. It's an IOU into an
Speaker 10: ETF and it's kind of you know, it is paper bitcoin,
Speaker 10: but it is backed. They have to buy the bitcoin,
Speaker 10: it's not futures based. And I think that's a great
Speaker 10: top of funnel for people to get into bitcoin and
Speaker 10: then if they want to go a little deeper and
Speaker 10: explore it and hold more. What we've seen historically is
Speaker 10: that as people buy more and learn more, they take
Speaker 10: self custody, and so they're going to graduate from that
Speaker 10: ETF product into holding real bitcoin core.
Speaker 2: What do you know about who's buying the demographics of
Speaker 2: actually crypto buyers, bitcoin buyers in particular.
Speaker 10: Yeah, so the buying public is, as you can imagine,
Speaker 10: very widespread. It's easier to make the pitch two gen
Speaker 10: z and millennials who aren't as encumbered by historical understandings
Speaker 10: and kind of receive knowledge about the financial system. But
Speaker 10: then when you look at it from an actual dollars in,
Speaker 10: it obviously skews toward the boomers and the gen X
Speaker 10: that actually have more money to be able to put in.
Speaker 10: So you see more customers coming from the youth of
Speaker 10: the country, but more dollars coming from those that are
Speaker 10: more established and have more money today.
Speaker 2: How much more volumes up? You said you've noticed some
Speaker 2: significant trends, but give us an idea. Can you give
Speaker 2: us some numbers? I'm just curious about.
Speaker 4: Yeah, sure, because it gives us an idea.
Speaker 2: You're kind of one of the kind of feel like
Speaker 2: ultimate risk trades, So it gives us an idea of
Speaker 2: kind of what's an investor's mind, because we just had
Speaker 2: what was it, money market funds?
Speaker 4: Was it yesterday? Hit a record high?
Speaker 2: So I'm just curious in trying to make sense of
Speaker 2: kind of the investment environment overall, not apples to apples.
Speaker 10: First, I think I do have to address this idea
Speaker 10: of bitcoin being a risk on trade, because that's counter
Speaker 10: to how it's being marketed by the ETF guys. They're
Speaker 10: talking about it as a safe haven and risk off,
Speaker 10: so that narrative is being changed. And again it's all around.
Speaker 10: It's not an inflation hedge in the terms of CPI,
Speaker 10: but it's an inflation hedge in the terms of monetary inflation.
Speaker 10: It's a hedge against printing more money, the original definition
Speaker 10: of inflation. So I think that is a really interesting
Speaker 10: thing to note. As far as volumes up about one
Speaker 10: hundred percent, I would say in the last couple of months,
Speaker 10: if you kind of just looked at September versus November,
Speaker 10: which we're closing right now, it was probably up about
Speaker 10: two x November over September.
Speaker 6: Is there a risk that this can be a sell
Speaker 6: the news event, though, with so much excitement and that
Speaker 6: jump that you were talking about from October to now.
Speaker 10: There is no such thing in any asset, including bitcoin,
Speaker 10: of a straight walk up in a straight line to
Speaker 10: some price that everyone expects in the future, because people
Speaker 10: will always front run that and get exuberant and then
Speaker 10: it'll always crash down. There has never been a large
Speaker 10: bowl market swing in bitcoin that hasn't had a pullback
Speaker 10: along the way of forty or fifty percent down, So
Speaker 10: you know, I do believe that we are in the
Speaker 10: early stages of what is very likely, given macroeconomic factors
Speaker 10: and given domestic factors with the ETFs, et cetera, and
Speaker 10: just kind of more people understanding what bitcoin is, that
Speaker 10: we'll see another big bowl market at some time in
Speaker 10: the future. And I think it's very likely that it
Speaker 10: happens over the next couple of years. But hearing that,
Speaker 10: we will absolutely see big drawdowns.
Speaker 2: Too, you know, career one of the things, you know,
Speaker 2: kind of we kicked off talking about the expectations for
Speaker 2: a spot a US pot Bitcoin ETF next year, and
Speaker 2: so that has certainly given some enthusiasm back to the market.
Speaker 2: But I also think about the legal overhang, and we
Speaker 2: got rid of two big things SBF and FTX, and
Speaker 2: also Binance, big deal, big settlement. I'm just curious there's
Speaker 2: crack and still out there, right, there's some legal concerns.
Speaker 2: I just wonder how you think about some of the
Speaker 2: legal woes or surprises that could still certainly creep up
Speaker 2: when it comes to this market.
Speaker 10: Yeah, it seems that bitcoin stands apart from everything that's
Speaker 10: been going on in the crypto space, right, every single
Speaker 10: non bitcoin crypto runs the risk of being targeted as
Speaker 10: a security by the SEC in the United States, and
Speaker 10: any crypto platform that isn't playing by the rules, let's
Speaker 10: say as they exist on the books, runs the risk
Speaker 10: of running a foul of a MLKYC violations money laundering. Essentially,
Speaker 10: if they've been too loose with their customer onboarding and monitoring,
Speaker 10: then it's very likely that they, whether purposefully or accidentally,
Speaker 10: have facilitated bad people doing bad things on their platform,
Speaker 10: as the DOJ has made very clear with respect to finance.
Speaker 6: So really, in your view, bitcoin is insulated from those
Speaker 6: concerns and issues and bad actors, and that the clearing
Speaker 6: out is bullish for the token.
Speaker 10: So if you're a bitcoin only company and you do
Speaker 10: things on the up and up just like any other company,
Speaker 10: you don't really have to worry about these sorts of things.
Speaker 10: As far as Bitcoin as a monetary technology and payment rails,
Speaker 10: it's technology, just like the dollar is technology, and bad
Speaker 10: people will do bad things with money. So they can
Speaker 10: use bitcoin, they can use dollars, they can use euros,
Speaker 10: you on and yen to make transactions. There's nothing you
Speaker 10: can do about that. It's just technology.
Speaker 11: It's neutral.
Speaker 2: What is you know, we just got about thirty forty
Speaker 2: seconds left here, Corey, as we wrap up, as you
Speaker 2: look ahead to twenty twenty four, you sound optimistic. I
Speaker 2: hear it, no doubt about it, and it's it is
Speaker 2: your book. But what is it that you do get
Speaker 2: concerned about when it comes to the crypto environment. What
Speaker 2: is the one possible downside that maybe might be top
Speaker 2: of mind for you? Just about thirty forty seconds.
Speaker 10: I mean, honestly, the most interesting challenge I'm really looking
Speaker 10: forward to taking on is to figure out how to
Speaker 10: talk to people about our frenemies. Right, We're already being used,
Speaker 10: Our people are already giving webinars inside of these large
Speaker 10: trad five firms educated their people about bitcoin as they
Speaker 10: ramp up their knowledge and their understanding. But at the
Speaker 10: same time, we sell a competing product with selling real
Speaker 10: bitcoin while they sell paper bitcoin. So I think just
Speaker 10: figuring out that dance and being kind of all on
Speaker 10: the same team and rising tide lifts all boats, and
Speaker 10: knowing that this is going to be very good for
Speaker 10: our business, but also understanding that as people get more
Speaker 10: deeply educated and more financially invested in bitcoin, they're going
Speaker 10: to want to own the real thing. And not an IOU,
Speaker 10: and they're going to want to pay for it once
Speaker 10: instead of having to pay for it every year. I
Speaker 10: think that will be a winning message in the market
Speaker 10: as well.
Speaker 2: All right, well listen, Happy New Year, Happy holidays, and
Speaker 2: look forward to talking to you in twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2: Corey Clipston of course, CEO. It's one bitcoin. Joining us
Speaker 2: from LA.
Speaker 3: You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us
Speaker 3: live weekday afternoons from three to six Easter on Bloomberg Radio,
Speaker 3: the Bloomberg Business app and YouTube. You can also listen
Speaker 3: live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station
Speaker 3: Just Say Alexa playing Bloomberg eleven thirty.
Speaker 2: Bailly Sauce story kind of was on my raidars I
Speaker 2: was getting ready to prep for this guest Bezos Earth Fun.
Speaker 2: They're going to put fifty seven million into climate food
Speaker 2: solutions that include developing low methane livestock to curb emissions
Speaker 2: of the potent greenhouse gas. Andy Jarvis is director of
Speaker 2: the Future of Food program, and he talked about this
Speaker 2: in a video interview from Dubai Food Systems. They when
Speaker 2: it comes to growing, it, processing, distributing, consumed or thrown
Speaker 2: away account for about a third of global greenhouse gas emissions.
Speaker 2: Much of that footprint is linked to livestock farming, a
Speaker 2: major source of methane, deforestation, biodiversity laws. So it's a
Speaker 2: big contributor to climate change.
Speaker 4: Big deal.
Speaker 6: And that's one of those things when you debate almond
Speaker 6: milk versus regular milk. Is almonds take a lot of water,
Speaker 6: but also there are a lot of things that come
Speaker 6: out of feeding in kind of milking account.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I feel like that was a later discussion,
Speaker 2: but livestock is really front and center. COP twenty eight
Speaker 2: underway will be for the next couple of weeks, and
Speaker 2: with that in mind, we welcome in our guest Benjamin Walcon.
Speaker 2: He's founding partner at Muse Climate Partners. It's a venture
Speaker 2: capital arama use and company. Its website says it invests
Speaker 2: at the convergence of climate solutions and high tech applications.
Speaker 4: He's on Zoom in New York City.
Speaker 2: Ben, great to have you here. Tell us about your
Speaker 2: firm and your investment philosophy.
Speaker 9: Thanks for having me on. At Muse Climate Partners, We're
Speaker 9: focused on areas where technology can help us decarbonize the
Speaker 9: economy faster. When we talk about the sectors that need
Speaker 9: to go to net zero, we're talking about electric power, transportation, buildings, industry,
Speaker 9: and agriculture. We need rapid scaling of technologies that can
Speaker 9: replace dirtier incumbents with cleaner solutions, and we're looking at
Speaker 9: investing in companies that can create those solutions in real time.
Speaker 4: All right, so where have you been investing.
Speaker 2: What do you think are some of the top investment
Speaker 2: ideas that you've really been committing money too.
Speaker 9: Well, right now, we're really excited about the innovation that's
Speaker 9: happening in home heating. As we know, heating is a
Speaker 9: major cause of climate change. You have a lot of
Speaker 9: homes that are powered by gas and by oil, but
Speaker 9: there's this quiet revolution that's happening right now in heat pumps,
Speaker 9: electric efficient systems that are much lower emissions. We're really
Speaker 9: excited to be backing a company called Harvest Thermal, for example,
Speaker 9: that's not only deploying heat pumps, but pairing those with
Speaker 9: smart controls that can draw power from the grid when
Speaker 9: renewables are online and match clean energy supply to home
Speaker 9: energy demand. So that's one of those examples where analytics
Speaker 9: and advanced software can be paired with a known climate
Speaker 9: solution to make it even better, a better value proposition
Speaker 9: around it, and something that can scale more rapidly. So
Speaker 9: home heating is one thing that we're excited about, but
Speaker 9: there's a lot of other invasion across electric power and others.
Speaker 2: I think this whole idea is really interesting when you
Speaker 2: talk about what you guys are investing kind of smart thermal,
Speaker 2: if you will, storage and heating. Having said that, how
Speaker 2: expensive is it for like a home to do it?
Speaker 9: Well, it depends exactly on where you are. One thing
Speaker 9: that we're really excited about is IRA, the Inflation Reduction
Speaker 9: Act that passed a year ago a little over a
Speaker 9: year ago, helps with incentives for homes. But even with
Speaker 9: or without IRA, the payback of it is actually quite
Speaker 9: rapid because you've reduced your energy builds so dramatically by
Speaker 9: having such a more efficient system in place.
Speaker 2: So payback in four years, five years, three years, two years.
Speaker 9: It really depends on where you are geographically.
Speaker 6: Interesting, well, Ben, I guess looking at your portfolio broadly though,
Speaker 6: what stage are some of these companies in, like how
Speaker 6: big are they are? They producing these products in a
Speaker 6: number of houses, are they still kind of early stage
Speaker 6: and really more in like that study phase.
Speaker 9: Yeah, In in ventor Capital, the alphabet game has gotten
Speaker 9: a little bit jumbled, where series A, series B, series
Speaker 9: C could mean a lot of different things. So we
Speaker 9: try to be very specific and say that right now
Speaker 9: we're investing at the cusp of commercialization, which means we're
Speaker 9: investing when companies have a great team in place, a
Speaker 9: great early product in place, and they've either signed up
Speaker 9: their first customers or they have credible, verifiable line of
Speaker 9: sight to those first customers, and they're looking for a
Speaker 9: funding ground that can help them accelerate and scale.
Speaker 6: Well, with the funding environment that we're in, it's difficult
Speaker 6: for companies to get cash. How has that changed for
Speaker 6: you guys putting money to work? Just given where we
Speaker 6: are with rates as high as they are and they
Speaker 6: kind of dearth of offerings both publicly and privately over
Speaker 6: the last two years, I.
Speaker 9: Would say that we're sort of blown away by the
Speaker 9: resilience of climate tech. Even with everything that's happening in
Speaker 9: the broader market environment, there continues to be a great
Speaker 9: deal of enthusiasm around the space. A lot of new
Speaker 9: dry powder sort of popped up in the last two
Speaker 9: or three years, and that really catalyzed a lot of
Speaker 9: entrepreneurial talent coming into the space. People want to be
Speaker 9: working on this solution. They want to be building things
Speaker 9: that can help address climate change. So while I know
Speaker 9: there's some data out there saying on a quarter to
Speaker 9: quarter basis there might be some slowdowns, seeing as much
Speaker 9: talent and as many opportunities in the space as we.
Speaker 4: Ever have, ben what about the EV space. I mean,
Speaker 4: obviously we know all the big players.
Speaker 2: We've talked a lot about, you know, Elon Musk today
Speaker 2: because of a cyber truck. But nonetheless there's you know,
Speaker 2: global manufacturers increasingly have ramped up EV offerings, but it
Speaker 2: does feel like the demand part of the equation has
Speaker 2: fallen off. And I feel like we were just talking
Speaker 2: about everybody kind of almost a tipping point, but it
Speaker 2: just feels like, all of a sudden, there's a pullback.
Speaker 2: What are you seeing in that space?
Speaker 9: You know, it's interesting because I have read those headlines,
Speaker 9: So I looked into the data, and every quarter so
Speaker 9: far in twenty twenty three has had higher EV sales
Speaker 9: than that same quarter in twenty twenty two. And I
Speaker 9: think we're just shy of four million EV sales per
Speaker 9: quarter right now. So the market is growing and you're
Speaker 9: hearing a number of individual auto makers saying that they're
Speaker 9: hitting new records. I think the Ford F one fifty
Speaker 9: Lightning was an example. So we're really excited about what
Speaker 9: we're seeing there. From our standpoint at MUSE, Climate Partners
Speaker 9: were looking at earlier stage opportunities. So for example, we
Speaker 9: were an early investor in a company that's become the
Speaker 9: number one electric farm tractor in the world, that's Monarch Tractor.
Speaker 9: And we're also looking at opportunities of AI applications that
Speaker 9: can help large corporations and large cities scale and manage
Speaker 9: their electric vehicle fleets.
Speaker 6: Ben, we got about forty forty five seconds left here. Obviously,
Speaker 6: I think everyone can agree that climate change getting away
Speaker 6: from fossil fuels is a big next step. But getting
Speaker 6: to those materials for batteries mining is poor, bad for
Speaker 6: the environment. What do you do with batteries afterwards? How
Speaker 6: do you strike a balance in terms of kind of
Speaker 6: cleaner energy but with the cost that come to produce
Speaker 6: those goods.
Speaker 9: Yeah, the entrepreneurial talent that's come to bearing climate tech
Speaker 9: is also focused on this, and at MUSE Climate Partners,
Speaker 9: we've backed a couple of companies that are looking at
Speaker 9: the battery economy of the future. One of those is
Speaker 9: a company called nth Cycle, which I believe has been
Speaker 9: featured in Bloomberg a number of times, which is made
Speaker 9: a next generation factory to reuse and reintroduce right metals
Speaker 9: into the battery economy. Yeah, we've looked at a number
Speaker 9: of others as well.
Speaker 8: Well.
Speaker 2: Come back soon, love to continue this conversation, Ben Walcon,
Speaker 2: He's founding partner at News Climate Partners. Joining us on
Speaker 2: zoom in New York City, Carol Masser along with Bailly Lipsheltz.
Speaker 2: You are listening and watching Bloomberg BusinessWeek, and this is
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Speaker 3: You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us
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Speaker 4: The United States.
Speaker 2: You know you'd be hard pressed to find a Chinese
Speaker 2: made car on the road. We're gonna talk about AI
Speaker 2: a little bit later on, so we want to talk
Speaker 2: a little bit about what's going on in the auto world.
Speaker 2: You might see a rare pollstar here or there, but
Speaker 2: in general, you're not seeing Chinese cars in the United States.
Speaker 2: But you travel Bailey to our neighbor to the south,
Speaker 2: quite a different story.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and that was the big finding from a terrific story,
Speaker 6: terrifically reported story, basically diving into the fact that Mexico
Speaker 6: is buying up a whole lot of Chinese cars, in
Speaker 6: Chinese vehicles broadly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, who knew, right, It's one of those kind of stories,
Speaker 2: which is what Bloomberg BusinessWeek does so well. Amy Stillman
Speaker 2: is Mexico business reporter for Bloomberg News. She writes about
Speaker 2: China's dominance in the soaring Mexican auto market the new
Speaker 2: issue of Bloomberg Business Week, which is on newstands, online
Speaker 2: and of course on the Bloomberg Amy, thank you so much.
Speaker 2: You are joining us on zoom from Mexico City, So
Speaker 2: tell us exactly what's going on and how dramatic it is.
Speaker 8: Thank you, Carol. Yeah, So, what we've been seeing is
Speaker 8: that Chinese car sales have really been ticking up pretty
Speaker 8: much since the pandemic. So really twenty twenty one twenty
Speaker 8: twenty two, twenty twenty three, we're seeing a really big
Speaker 8: increase this year alone, for the first ten months we
Speaker 8: saw a fifty one percent increase in sales, and now
Speaker 8: car sales are roughly about twenty sorry, Chinese car sales
Speaker 8: are roughly about twenty percent of total sales in the market.
Speaker 8: So it's really been a very, very big increase in
Speaker 8: the last few years. And you know, part of the
Speaker 8: motivation for that is that, you know, when you did
Speaker 8: have the pandemic, you saw a lot of the Western
Speaker 8: carmakers running into difficulty with inventories and issues around chip shortages,
Speaker 8: and the Chinese automakers were really able to, you know,
Speaker 8: come in there meet that demand and really have been
Speaker 8: meeting a lot of consumers expectations on price and improvements
Speaker 8: and quality as well.
Speaker 6: And how how has this shifted though, I'm looking at
Speaker 6: a terrific chart that you have in this story that
Speaker 6: China basically was not even remotely a player by any
Speaker 6: stretch just a few years ago.
Speaker 8: Exactly exactly what we can say is that the Chinese
Speaker 8: automakers have very aggressively been moving into into Mexico. You know,
Speaker 8: it does give them a foothold in North America. It
Speaker 8: has been traditionally very very difficult for the Chinese to
Speaker 8: get into the US, so the fact that they have
Speaker 8: been able to really expand in Mexico without much resistance
Speaker 8: has really been a boon for the for the Chinese
Speaker 8: car makers. At the same time, you know, what we're
Speaker 8: seeing is that in China, while you've had this big
Speaker 8: surge of electric vehicles, the regular gas powered vehicles aren't
Speaker 8: in as much demand, and so there's actually an oversupply issue.
Speaker 8: So a lot of those cars, the gas powered vehicles
Speaker 8: are now coming over to Mexico. You know, you've seen
Speaker 8: real differences in price, which here in Mexico that's a
Speaker 8: very big deal for consumers. They don't have as much
Speaker 8: access to financing as consumers in the US, for instance,
Speaker 8: and so that's been very very attractive as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of interesting that it's all gasoline powered
Speaker 2: vehicles when we are so obsessed with the ev world.
Speaker 2: But that's not what's happening. But I get it in
Speaker 2: terms of the market. But you do wonder if ultimately
Speaker 2: Amy gives China and Chinese auto manufacturer is kind of
Speaker 2: a leg up as the world increasingly moves towards evs.
Speaker 8: That certainly seems to be the next step. You've seen
Speaker 8: also Chinese EV makers, like the biggest Chinese EV maker,
Speaker 8: by D, has started to uh sell cars here in Mexico,
Speaker 8: electric vehicles here. They've been negotiating deals with some of
Speaker 8: the biggest Mexican conglomerates to to sell fleets of electric trucks.
Speaker 8: They've also uh you know, launched a new deal with
Speaker 8: a big retailer over here Liverpool to sell their cars
Speaker 8: and as well as uh you know, install charging stations,
Speaker 8: which is really speaking to you know, some of the
Speaker 8: bottlenecks in Mexico around charging infrastructure. So certainly there's definitely
Speaker 8: a push by the Chinese in the electric vehicle market
Speaker 8: as well.
Speaker 6: And Amy, do you notice the shift. I feel like
Speaker 6: when I see a Rivian, I'm like, oh, there's a
Speaker 6: Rivian truck, or if I see Lucid Air it stands
Speaker 6: out to me. Have you noticed really this penetration, this
Speaker 6: jump in China made cars.
Speaker 8: Well, you know what's very interesting here is that if
Speaker 8: you go to get an Uber, there's a good chance
Speaker 8: that you're gonna be in a BYD electric vehicle, a
Speaker 8: company here. Vemo has partnered with Uber and using BYD
Speaker 8: electric vehicles to transport people around Mexico City. So if
Speaker 8: you're in the city, if you take Uber, yeah, there's
Speaker 8: a good chance that you're going to see the penetration
Speaker 8: of some of these electric vehicles from the Chinese car
Speaker 8: makers Jack as well. You're also seeing more of these
Speaker 8: cars on the road, So there's certainly certainly a noticeable presence.
Speaker 6: So have you you've written in one then if they're
Speaker 6: primarily ride sharing, did you like it?
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, you know, they're they're very uh, they're very interesting.
Speaker 8: I spoke with the driver. She told me, you know,
Speaker 8: it's great because you know, the vehicle won't start until
Speaker 8: you buckle up, so it's a nice safety reminder. And
Speaker 8: you know, in general, you know, they're very they seem
Speaker 8: like very efficient, very very good cars.
Speaker 2: It does sound like that China has to watch. We
Speaker 2: just got about twenty seconds left. Competition Amy is coming
Speaker 2: from US manufacturers, Global manufacturers for Mexico.
Speaker 8: That's correct, that's correct. There are a lot of companies,
Speaker 8: Western companies that are looking to build plants here. Of course,
Speaker 8: the biggest one is Tesla. There's a lot of expectation
Speaker 8: that that Tesla will launch in Mexico in the next
Speaker 8: few years, and people are very excited about that as well.
Speaker 8: So the Chinese car makers will certainly need to watch
Speaker 8: for the competition.
Speaker 4: Very cool.
Speaker 2: Like I say, it's one of those Business Week stories
Speaker 2: is like, wait, what I didn't know this was going on?
Speaker 2: Amy Stillman, thank you so much, Mexican business reporter at
Speaker 2: Bloomberg News joining us on zoom from Mexico City. It's
Speaker 2: in the new issue, on newsstands, online and on the Bloomberg.
Speaker 4: This is Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 6: Marco.
Speaker 2: A journal How about you let me drive?
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, no no, who's going to honey please?
Speaker 3: I'll do the riding gravel.
Speaker 8: Let's wat I.
Speaker 2: Want to try.
Speaker 7: It's the question that.
Speaker 3: T this is the drive to the Globe dot com effect?
Speaker 9: Well buyers? Should it on?
Speaker 3: On Bloomberg Radio?
Speaker 2: All right, everybody, just about eighteen minutes left in today's
Speaker 2: trading session. And I'm not sure if you saw this
Speaker 2: Bailey about Bloomberg Opinion columnist former CEO PIMCO Mohammad al
Speaker 2: Arian writes today on the Bloomberg on how uncertainty looms
Speaker 2: over this November to remember more specifically how investors and
Speaker 2: Alice risk underestimating the challenges ahead during the period of
Speaker 2: understandable market euphoria. I mean, it's been quite a run
Speaker 2: up in November.
Speaker 6: Fascinating piece from miss el Aery and the interesting thing, Carol,
Speaker 6: to your point, we saw the dow s and p
Speaker 6: Russell all up about nine percent. ARC. Remember ARC, ARC
Speaker 6: had its best month on percentage basis e ever thirty
Speaker 6: one percent. I mean massive rallies cryptos, crypto, Bitcoin is
Speaker 6: continuing to rally, and we.
Speaker 4: Started off today pretty red hot. I'm curious what our
Speaker 4: next guest has to say.
Speaker 6: I know, and with that in mind, let's get to
Speaker 6: the Drive to the Clothes with Carol Schleife. She is
Speaker 6: the CIO at BEMO Family Office. Back with us in
Speaker 6: the Bloomberg Interactive Brokers studio. Carol, how are.
Speaker 4: You doing great?
Speaker 11: It's lovely to be here and I love to see
Speaker 11: the activity in downtown New York.
Speaker 4: It is nice, right, It's really great.
Speaker 2: It feels like the city is back in a big way.
Speaker 6: Especially on a Friday. I feel like my commute was
Speaker 6: busy ghost Town. Then I get to the city coming
Speaker 6: from the New Jerseys that I get here and everyone.
Speaker 11: There are a lot of tourists here for the weekend
Speaker 11: Christmas in New York. What's not to love?
Speaker 4: It's the best.
Speaker 6: They just let up the tree here.
Speaker 2: Well, so let's say, you know, Mohammad al Arian seems
Speaker 2: to be a little like, don't get ahead of yourself.
Speaker 4: How do you feel about that? Do you agree with him?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 11: I would definitely agree with him, And especially it was
Speaker 11: listening to the lead in about Paul saying we may
Speaker 11: not be done and we're going to keep them highing
Speaker 11: at the markets, like, oh no, they're done, We're actively.
Speaker 4: We're a little confused by that.
Speaker 11: Again, I actually think the only analogy it can come
Speaker 11: with is when my teenagers sort of go, mom didn't
Speaker 11: say no, she said maybe yeah, yeah, yeah, and and
Speaker 11: maybe means yes yeah.
Speaker 6: I was going to say with that in mind, So
Speaker 6: that's more of like because he was balanced, that inherently
Speaker 6: is Dubvish.
Speaker 11: Yeah, exactly. And I think the markets, being discounting mechanisms
Speaker 11: and looking ahead, are really trying to get towards it endgame.
Speaker 11: We think it's premature. We do think they'll start to
Speaker 11: cut at some point next year, definitely not in the
Speaker 11: first quarter, and there's a lot of first half though
Speaker 11: my own suspicion of our house view is we're not
Speaker 11: going to peg it that close. But my suspicion is
Speaker 11: it's later in the year because Chairman Paul can't be
Speaker 11: very happy with the fact that the tenure came from
Speaker 11: five and is down now flirting with four point two,
Speaker 11: because they need they still need that inflation. The core
Speaker 11: inflation is still running it twice what they wanted to run.
Speaker 2: I laugh because I feel like I've certainly been talking
Speaker 2: about this other people.
Speaker 4: I'm like, don't worry, you'll get there, you know, refinance it.
Speaker 2: Like all of a sudden, we're watching the rates come down,
Speaker 2: and I do wonder what kind of activity will come
Speaker 2: out of this.
Speaker 11: And I do think because when you look at the
Speaker 11: demographics of it, there's a whole bunch of pent up
Speaker 11: demand demographically, and if you could get the prices of
Speaker 11: the houses to come down, because a year and a
Speaker 11: half ago, if you had said, we suspect they'll see
Speaker 11: a huge upticket mortgage rates hit six percent, but right now,
Speaker 11: if they hit six or six and a half percent,
Speaker 11: I think you would get a lot of people coming
Speaker 11: up out of the margins. Because there's you know, when
Speaker 11: you get to the point where you start having kids,
Speaker 11: or you have more kids and you out grow the
Speaker 11: house and you want to be a bit philly.
Speaker 6: I just bought at six and an eighth and felt
Speaker 6: like an idiot at the time, but now I feel like,
Speaker 6: if you're lucky, I guess I don't really have.
Speaker 11: To I mean, here, I'm dating myself. My first mortgage
Speaker 11: was twelve percent, and a year later I thought I
Speaker 11: died to heven when I got to refinance at eight.
Speaker 6: Do we get anywhere near five rate cuts next year
Speaker 6: like the market's pricing in.
Speaker 11: I don't know if we get five rate cuts, but
Speaker 11: I think what the market will focus on is not
Speaker 11: the number, but the trend and the fact. And I
Speaker 11: think that's what the markets are really key in on.
Speaker 11: But they got a bit ahead of themselves. We suspect,
Speaker 11: just especially in the near term, both stock and bond markets,
Speaker 11: with the exuberance you've got, because you do have a
Speaker 11: lot of head ones that you're facing, and by the
Speaker 11: time we get to January February, we're still facing again.
Speaker 11: Can we keep the government open top to bottom?
Speaker 4: Do you think a recession's part of this?
Speaker 2: And I guess my other question is can we have
Speaker 2: a recession with a decent job market, and then is
Speaker 2: it a different type of recession which maybe is still support.
Speaker 4: Of See we've never this trade.
Speaker 11: Yeah, we've never been in the recession camp. We said
Speaker 11: soft landing from the beginning on and continued to talk
Speaker 11: about that and actually done when the whole rest of
Speaker 11: the world jumped on soft landing. We were like, oh,
Speaker 11: but there's a whole lot of things out there now
Speaker 11: that might make this a little rocky, but there you
Speaker 11: do have the underpinnings. The thing that goes unrecognized a
Speaker 11: lot is we have so much fiscal stimulus coming into
Speaker 11: the system still. Now, if that were to get reversed
Speaker 11: because you had regime change, if you will, in terms
Speaker 11: of after the elections next year, and you start appeeling
Speaker 11: some of that back, that could put pressure on it.
Speaker 11: And we do have to figure out how we're going
Speaker 11: to pay for all of it, because that you know,
Speaker 11: those concerns haven't gone away. They're a bit easier if
Speaker 11: you don't have five percent ten years, you've got four
Speaker 11: point two in terms of refinancing the debt. But we
Speaker 11: were at the point where we were adding a trillion
Speaker 11: dollars just to service the debt.
Speaker 6: And one question I have looking ahead to next year.
Speaker 6: Nasac's re turning forty seven percent this year, sm P
Speaker 6: twenty two percent, equal weight just eight, Right, what does
Speaker 6: the market look like in twenty four given the dispersion
Speaker 6: we saw in twenty three.
Speaker 11: We do think you get more broadening out. You have
Speaker 11: to in order to sustain this ready, aren't we Yeah,
Speaker 11: we are. And you saw it hinted at in the spring,
Speaker 11: because through May it was the Magnificent seven, and then
Speaker 11: in June into July you had a broadening and then
Speaker 11: you had three really bad months and you're getting a
Speaker 11: bit more broadening. But to your question about recession, we
Speaker 11: have had rolling recessions underneath the surface, and we've seen
Speaker 11: periods like that before, and I think if you step
Speaker 11: back from it too, it's also indicative of the fact
Speaker 11: that when you've got secular change going on in the markets,
Speaker 11: in terms of initially I think people thought we were
Speaker 11: going to go back to zero percent neutral rate, We're not.
Speaker 11: That was the anomaly was the last ten or twelve years,
Speaker 11: and so when you go through a period where you're
Speaker 11: trying to reset expectations and anchor to new things. You
Speaker 11: get a lot of this rolling around like we had,
Speaker 11: where you get one trend that'll play for four to
Speaker 11: six weeks and then it'll pull back and it'll go
Speaker 11: a different direction. But if we can get this leveling
Speaker 11: off in here where the economy does okay, interest rates
Speaker 11: are reasonable and people have pricing power, I mean the
Speaker 11: key will be to watch too in the next couple
Speaker 11: of months with what happens with the consumers, because when
Speaker 11: those credit card bills start coming due in January, the
Speaker 11: heads yeah.
Speaker 2: Buying all the buy now, pay lead later, which which
Speaker 2: you know, our intelligence analyst was saying that people feel
Speaker 2: confident that they can pay it off in the couple
Speaker 2: of months before rates.
Speaker 4: But it's just kind of interesting.
Speaker 11: Yeah, it is nerve wracking. And I suppose if you
Speaker 11: get a December bonus and you're putting a few of
Speaker 11: that on, I get them tucked.
Speaker 4: Away early, but you can take care of it.
Speaker 11: But I've also heard a lot of the stories too
Speaker 11: about trying to get you know, the retailers are trying
Speaker 11: to get that spending early because they're not sure people
Speaker 11: are going to be able to sustain it through the season,
Speaker 11: and it's been a long time since I've seen the
Speaker 11: forty to fifty sixty percent offers starting around Halloween continuing
Speaker 11: oh only through Black Friday. Oh, we'll extend it beyond it.
Speaker 4: I agree with you.
Speaker 2: The emails are content here real quickly twenty five thirty seconds.
Speaker 2: You like industrials, healthcare, technology, technology? What do you like
Speaker 2: in technology?
Speaker 4: Just quickly? I'm curious.
Speaker 11: I think they're figuring out the impact and where artificial
Speaker 11: intelligence is going to play this piece of it, cybersecurity,
Speaker 11: the buildout of infrastructure, it's all undergirded with technology.
Speaker 4: So it'll continue to be a themed next year. Great,
Speaker 4: no doubt about it. Thank you. So do you have
Speaker 4: a last one?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 6: No, I was just going to say, yeah, I guess
Speaker 6: are you looking for like kind of tangential second para
Speaker 6: derivative AI play?
Speaker 8: Yeah?
Speaker 11: I think so, especially because it's really interesting when you
Speaker 11: think through what will it do for diagnostic imaging so
Speaker 11: you don't have a radiologist looking through.
Speaker 4: I love that idea experience. Yeah, I think that's going
Speaker 4: to be Powerful's huge. Carol's life, Happy holidays.
Speaker 2: Mary Christmas, chief investment Officer at VIMA Family Office and Studio,
Speaker 2: This is Bloomberg.
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