WEBVTT - 4. The Punisher 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:04.520 If FBI informant Mickey Windecker has a favorite movie, I'm 0:00:04.559 --> 0:00:09.440 pretty sure I know what it is. The Punisher and 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:15.800 certain extreme situations The Law is Inadequate. In the two 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:18.440 thousand and four film, actor Thomas Jane plays a guy 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:22.160 named Frank Castle whose family is murdered by the mafia. 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:25.840 As a result, he becomes a bone crushing vigilante on 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:30.080 the hunt for his family's killers. The Punisher is an outlaw, 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:33.199 a man who meets out his own brand of justice 0:00:33.720 --> 0:00:35.400 as a way to make up for what he sees 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:39.440 as the failures of the police and the criminal justice system. 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:42.840 He's not bound by rules or laws. He's bound only 0:00:42.880 --> 0:00:46.879 by his own sense of morality and justice. He's judged 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:52.720 jury and Punisher. This is not vengeance. Revenge is not 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:58.360 a valid motive. It's an emotional response. No, not vengeance. 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:08.760 Mickey two thinks of himself as being bound only by 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:13.319 his unique sense of morality and justice. But there's more 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:17.800 to it than that. Mickey wants to be the Punisher, 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:23.240 and you know who helps make that happen, the FBI. 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:34.440 I'm Trevor Aaronson from Western Sound and I Heart Podcasts. 0:01:34.920 --> 0:02:08.880 This is Alphabet Boys, episode four, The Punisher. I drive 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:12.280 out to a nondescript apartment complex north of Denver. I 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:14.519 knock on a first floor unit near the parking lot, 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:19.120 and Cassie Windecker opens the door wearing sweatpants and a 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:23.280 baggy tshirt. The door opens to Cassie's living room, which 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:25.160 has a floor to ceiling stripper pole in the middle. 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:29.000 On the wall our movie posters for Beetlejuice and Friday 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:34.280 the Thirteenth. Gothic decorations are strewn throughout the apartment. Halloween 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:38.440 isn't anytime soon. Cassie's just really into the imagery. I 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:41.079 start setting up my recording equipment. I was like, gosh, 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:46.560 it's this video. Cassie was working late the night before 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:49.200 and she's just rolled out of bed. She sees I 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:52.680 have an audio recorder, not a camera, and she's relieved 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:56.600 because I'm known as this model, like might be good 0:02:56.600 --> 0:03:02.280 for our reputation. I don't know. So I'm recording now. 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:05.160 If you could just introduce yourself the way you'd like 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:10.800 to be referred. Okay, Hi, my name is Cassieky. Did 0:03:10.840 --> 0:03:15.239 you go by Cassie Windecker? Honestly, so the whole vin 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:19.880 Decker thing Windecker. I hate it. I'm trying your intimate. 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:25.359 I'm so tired of it. Cassie started seeing Mickey in 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:28.680 twenty fifteen, about five years before Mickey would become an 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:33.919 FBI informant investigating racial justice activists in Denver. Cassie is 0:03:33.960 --> 0:03:37.560 Mickey Windecker's third ex wife. Her hair is long and 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:40.160 her eyes are green. She has gauges in both of 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:44.000 her ears and tattoos all over her body, including a 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:47.120 Halloween pumpkin on her neck, an anchor below one eye, 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:51.200 and large letters across part of her forehead that read confidence. 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:55.720 These days, Cassie works at a strip club and as 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:59.119 an adult model. Online, she's known as kill A Cassie 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:01.440 Cassie with a A if you want to look her 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:06.080 up on Instagram. Cassie is short for Cassandra, you know, 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:09.800 the Trojan princess in Greek mythology who uttered prophecies that 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:14.560 were true, but we're doomed to be ignored to the 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:18.400 extent she can. Cassie has been warning people about Mickey Windecker, 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:21.120 who entered her life when he came to her aid 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:25.760 over a torn ear. One of my gauges, well, my 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:29.000 left ear lobe it had ripped, and I made a 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:32.440 status on Facebook, like can anybody at a shop or 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:36.040 anything like fix my ear? And he had commented on it. 0:04:36.240 --> 0:04:38.160 And he used to work at like all the strip clubs. 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:39.640 He used to go to Hers Call and he did 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:41.800 all the stuff I did. He has known as like 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:44.520 the vampire guy, like the guy with the hers, the 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:47.479 cool guy. You know, everybody loved him. And I go 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:51.960 down there and like he fixed my ear, which is cool. 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:54.839 You know, it was fine. It's still fixed by him. 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:57.720 Like he did a good job. But like that's how 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:01.240 I met him. Mickey and Cassie had been acquainted through 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:06.159 Denver's Gassine and the Denver Hearse Association, an organization for 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:08.840 people who drive around in hearses and want to show 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:13.080 off their rides. The Denver Hearse Association publishes photos of 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:16.320 young beautiful women posing next to what some people call 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:22.920 undertaker's limousines or more crudely, meat wagons. Cassie was the 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:25.400 Hearse Girl of the Year two years in a row. 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:29.359 Mickey was known for driving around Denver and his hearse, 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:34.279 for participating in Zombie Apocalypse cosplay events around town, and 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:37.600 for playing a bit part In a locally produced grindhouse 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:41.880 movie called Killer Inc. About a tattoo artist who doubles 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:45.360 as a serial killer. About an hour into Killer Inc, 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:49.240 Two women, one blonde, the other burnette, pull into a 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:52.320 wooded area and a black hearse. The hearse was one 0:05:52.440 --> 0:05:55.440 Mickey owned at the time, with a biohazard symbol painted 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:59.920 on the hood. Jamie, Mickey's second wife, played the burnette. 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:03.479 In the scene, both women get out of the hearse. 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:10.520 I thought you were tired, Mickey's x Jamie says, as 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:15.280 the blonde woman takes off her top. The two women 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:17.239 then start making out in the back of the hearse 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:21.520 as Mickey, baseball bat in hand, walks up and watches 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:25.440 Peeping Tom style. He's flipping the bat in his hands 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:29.719 as if getting ready to attack the two women. Just then, 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:34.240 Killer Ink's main character sneaks up behind Mickey, snaps his neck, 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:37.800 grabs the baseball bat, clubs one of the women, and 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:45.200 then strangles the other with his bare hands. Mickey didn't 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:48.400 get a single line in the movie, and honestly, his 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:50.920 scene didn't make a whole lot of sense. But then 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:54.039 no one watches a grindhouse movie for the story. I 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:58.720 guess anyway back when Mickey fixed Cassie's ear. This is 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:02.280 what she knew of him her sky zombie cosplay role 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:05.800 in that Grindhouse movie. And at that time, Mickey had 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:09.080 a girlfriend and Cassie a fiance, but that didn't stop 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:13.320 them from getting together. Yep. It was nuts because we 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:17.560 didn't date, we didn't anything. We moved in together immediately, 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:20.600 and then he at my grandma's house asked me and 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:26.400 Miriam was in a couple of days. Typical military men, 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:30.200 which is unfortunate. Not all of them, but a lot 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:33.760 of military men. I want to marry right away because 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:37.480 I've had happened before. I should have learned the first time. 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:41.680 Those are at least real military men. Cassie's infatuation with 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:44.840 Mickey wasn't based on any physical connection. I didn't even 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:48.160 find him attractive the whole time, which was crazy. The 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:53.040 infatuation was based on drugs, which Cassie says Mickey provided 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:55.960 to her. My drug of choice was heroin and xanax 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:59.280 at the time, and on money, which Mickey appeared to 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:02.680 have lots of in cash. And he laid down all 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:06.400 this money on his boat like ten gran and he 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:08.280 took a picture of it and he send it to me, 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:10.560 and he was like, do you want to come home 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:13.520 to this every day? And I was like, oh, you know, 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:15.880 all stupid about it. Some people are like that. I 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:19.560 was very shallow with the money. Cassie says Mickey didn't 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:23.720 work much, not any sort of official job anyway, and 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:26.000 the drugs he provided to her acted as a kind 0:08:26.040 --> 0:08:28.640 of leash. He could pull her in any direction he 0:08:28.680 --> 0:08:30.880 wanted to, so long as he had pills to offer. 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:37.160 Their relationship could get pretty dark and violent. Many of 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:40.920 Cassie's allegations about Mickey in this episode are impossible to corroborate. 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:44.760 In most cases, she and Mickey were the only witnesses 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:49.560 to the alleged behavior, But the claims Cassie makes about drugs, money, 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:53.000 and violence are similar to others about Mickey that can 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:55.280 be found in criminal and civil court files over the 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:59.000 last two decades. Some of these claims are also documented 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:05.480 in the FBI's internal reports about Mickey. Throughout their relationship, 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:09.320 Cassie says Mickey was controlling. For example, he would go 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:11.439 to the strip club when she was working and count 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:13.280 the number of private dances she did in a night, 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:17.040 and then calculate how much money she should have and 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:19.600 if I was short or like got too much, he 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:24.760 would flip his shit. Oh it was bad. Any money 0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:28.440 she earned was his, none of it was mine. And 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:31.880 when we would go shopping, he'd be like he'd drained me. 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:33.760 And by the time I'd get to a store, I 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:38.600 wanted Cassie, that's stupid, and it's just like we're at Claire's. 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:42.040 Let me get some cool I'm a girl and I'm 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:45.240 a stripper. I want some glitterary perfume or something that's stupid. 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:47.480 And you know you're gonna guys are gonna want you. 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:49.880 That's my job. I want them to want me so 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:52.800 I get money. I hope I'm asking this. Was he 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:57.960 sexually or physically abusive. Yeah, So he would always and 0:09:57.960 --> 0:09:59.679 this is this is gonna make me laugh, because I 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:02.320 do get nervous. I have a nervous laugh. He would 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:04.720 always say, I don't know why, but I have sex 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:09.960 in my sleep. And I would say, huh, that sounds weird. 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:12.520 I was like, what dreams? You know? I can understand that, 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:15.160 And I could understand fantasizing and you know, you're you're 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:18.240 you're a human being. We all do it. But no, 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:21.280 he would literally have sex with me while I was 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:24.960 asleep and I would catch him. He would be wide awake, 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:28.720 and I'm just like, I'm not I'm not a woman 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:30.800 that's like I need consent. You know, you're my husband, 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:34.920 totally cool. I tell every boyfriend and whatever this, You're 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:37.200 totally fine. Do whatever you want when I'm asleep. So 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:39.400 it wasn't like a rape thing or anything. I'm not 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:43.160 I'm not hashtag me too. I'm not doing that. But 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:48.160 I will say it'd be weird because he would only 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:50.400 want to do stuff when I was like asleep, and 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:52.240 I feel like that's so he could do what he wants, 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:55.920 get it over with and that'd be it. And whenever 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:59.199 I wanted anything sexual, it was just like I don't 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:02.439 want to right now. Phsd's acting up, YadA, YadA, YadA. 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:05.760 But if you go do anything like you're cheating, I'm like, 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:09.720 how is porn cheating? How is anything you know besides 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:14.200 another person cheating. I mean he met like masturbating with yeah, 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:17.360 and I was like, you know, I was a lot 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:19.640 younger at the time too, and you know, being on 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:23.880 drugs and just you know, you you want to do that, 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:26.839 and even even anybody come on, you know, thirty forty 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:29.719 fifty doesn't matter who you are. There's times when you're 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:33.319 not getting anything. If you're not happy, you're gonna want 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:36.480 to master ate. And he would, like he would, he 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:39.000 would just abuse you for that. He had abuse it 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:42.040 for being on your period. I remember he used to 0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:44.800 have me put up a little red string when I 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:48.319 was on my period because he hated the word period. 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:51.720 He hated me talking about it. I had to go 0:11:51.760 --> 0:11:55.000 to therapy just to be able to learn how to 0:11:55.000 --> 0:12:00.280 talk about my female organs again and use the word. 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:04.720 And even I feel disgusted saying period because of Mickey. 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:09.560 So yeah, he would, um, he would. He would say, 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:12.760 women who bleed are disgusting, And I'm like, we all bled, dude, 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:15.240 how do you think you were made? How do you 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:21.640 think you were on this earth ruining shit? Like, oh, 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:25.240 I mean, this is all classic woman hating stuff. But 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:29.400 Cassie stayed, I don't really know what I want was doing, 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:33.959 to be honest, but it was just like I was 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:38.160 constantly getting spoiled too, and I know that was probably 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:41.160 dirty money. I think, you know, he never worked, but 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:43.600 it was like constantly, you know, every finger I had 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:47.320 had a ring on it every finger, and one time, 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:49.560 out of curiosity, I went to like, you know, get 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:52.760 it tested. All of them were real, you know, real gold, 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:57.000 real diamond. It's like, wow, did did he ever say 0:12:57.320 --> 0:12:58.800 you know where he would have gotten the money to 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:01.760 bude us? Yeah, because once in a while I would ask, 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:04.880 and if the gift was really big, I wouldn't even 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:07.240 I'd be like, whoa, I'm not even gonna ask. I 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:09.760 don't want to know. I don't want to know. It's 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:12.160 kind of like that would be the good Fellas. You're like, 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:15.320 what is he doing? But I don't know because I'm 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:18.040 happy and I got nice dresses and shit, so I 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:20.960 don't want to ask, you know, just go on your day. 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:23.720 Mickey would tell Cassie that his father had owned a 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:27.280 taxi company and left him a bunch of money, but 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:30.320 that never made sense to her because Mickey's money came 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:35.840 in erratically and always in cash. So one time I 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:40.640 remember we go to some type of like court house 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:45.960 slash like just police station thing and a rappahole, and 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:50.040 I remember I waited in the car again and he 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:54.079 came back out and he was just like, here's a 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:59.800 new iPhone. And I was like, huh new iPhone, huh, 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:02.160 and it was a government building that he got it from. Yes, 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:05.320 And at the time I'm just like, oh iPhone, like 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:07.960 you know. But then also I'm like, did he go 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:10.000 in there? Because it was like evidence, you know, it's 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:13.760 a police station. Cassie began to suspect that Mickey was 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:17.199 working with the cops and that's how he was getting 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:32.400 his money more after the break so, Cassie began to 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:35.640 suspect that her new husband was secretly working for the police, 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:39.680 or maybe Mickey just liked pretending to be a cop. 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:45.240 Cassie wasn't sure. Mickey, remember, has been accused multiple times 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:49.360 in criminal and civil court proceedings of impersonating a police officer. 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:54.400 One time, we went downtown and we were near the library. 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:57.320 There's this like water fountain thing by the library, watching 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:00.240 homeless people and like drug dealers hang out there, just 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:03.560 kind of the spot to be when you're doing bad shit. 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:06.480 So we're down there. I'm kind of like, you know, 0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:08.800 why are we down here? I remember I was smoking 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:11.760 weed eat a hot dog, and I'm like, huh, this 0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:13.880 is weird. Why are we down here? And I keep 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:15.840 asking him, you know, why are we down here, and 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:18.080 his excuse was always like, oh, I'm gonna take you 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:20.280 somewhere to eat, but I'm want to cruise around and stuff. 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:22.960 There was this guy, you know, he like rolled up 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:24.400 to the window and he's like, hey, you guys want 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:28.160 to buy anything, And Mickey was like he went to 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:31.440 grab towards his shirt like he had a little intercom 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:34.440 speaker and went, there's some activity going on down here, 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:37.440 and he is some like weird code. I don't remember 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:39.120 the code, so we'll just go with four eight nine 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:42.440 to something and the guy said whoa whoa wall put 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:45.920 his hands up the drug dealer and he goes, dude, please, 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:50.440 I'll do anything. And then Michael pulls out his iPad, 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:53.520 grabs it, takes picture of the dude and it is 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:56.600 like again reaching for like his upper shoulder, and he's 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:59.160 like nine oh two, we gotta da da datta da 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:02.040 cha cha chid to the left, to the right, boom 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:05.720 boom bam, and the guy just he runs and Michael 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:09.240 literally were in my Honda Civic chasing this dude and 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:12.720 I'm like, why are we chasing this guy? Like what 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:14.320 do you do to you? And he would just like 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:16.560 shut up. Cassie like just shut up, like he wouldn't 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:18.840 tell you, he'd just shut the fuck up, like and 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:20.720 he would like abuse you while you're like, you know, 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:24.160 like shut up, like use force, like press you down 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:26.240 on your seat type, like you know what, you're about 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:28.040 to get in a car accident and somebody called you back. 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:31.160 He would do that in my car. It wasn't his car. 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:34.920 I remember at that moment, I was like, he just 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:39.080 impersonated a whole as Coop and I was right, there, 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:42.560 can I get in trouble? Like what in the fuck? 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:46.080 Like whoa? And the way he did it was just 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:50.320 so nonchalant and so natural. He's done this before and 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:54.680 he's doing it again. Mickey had an obsession with the Punisher, 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:58.800 the Marvel Comics anti hero, and He's not alone. The 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:02.480 Punisher logo, a skull with long teeth, has been widely 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:05.680 adopted as a symbol by police officers and pro police 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:09.480 Blue Lives Matter demonstrators. It's not uncommon these days to 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:12.480 see T shirts and flags adorned with the Punisher logo, 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:16.359 an American flag and a thin blue line. During the 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:18.960 summer of twenty twenty, the Punisher became a symbol of 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:22.480 police solidarity against the Black Lives Matter movement that was 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:26.359 critical of American policing. Some of the January six insurrectionists 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:31.119 also wore clothing with the Punisher logo. Anyway, back to Mickey, 0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:34.920 anything you see, the Punisher logo was on it. Anything 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:37.479 you see, And he would always wear the Punisher necklace 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:40.239 even when he took a shower or a bath, like 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:45.199 never came off, just like a big kid in the 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:50.359 worst way, in the worst way. It's awful. Cassie says 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:54.920 that obsession bordered on identity crisis. He literally thought he 0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:59.440 was the Punisher and the Punisher's badass, so that's a disgrace. 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:05.439 But yeah, no, he definitely thought that was who he was. 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:08.560 And that's the hard part, right when you're dealing with 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:13.640 the psychopath or somebody who's narcissistic, they believe themselves so 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:17.320 much that they will believe their own lies to the 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:20.760 point where it becomes true. They lie to themselves so 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:23.920 much to where if they were to take a polygraph, 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:27.760 they'd pass it because he believes he's the Punisher. If 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:32.439 you ask, are you the Punisher, Michael Vindecker, yes, fullhearted me. 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:36.160 He would pass with flying colors because when you believe something, 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:40.720 you become that thing. And narcissists, that's the number one 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:42.800 rule that they have. It's like fight club, you know, 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:49.119 that's their number one rule, believe what you think. In 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:52.439 the comic book series, The Punisher is a marine, but 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:56.240 Mickey I couldn't find any record of him ever serving 0:18:56.240 --> 0:18:58.720 in the US military, and as far as I can 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:01.560 tell from court records, Mickey's never been one for steady 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:05.560 employment either. He was divorced twice before he married Cassie, 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:08.600 and then one of those divorce filings, Mickey listed that 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:13.640 he was unemployed and had been unemployed. But people who 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:17.000 knew Mickey also told me that he was flushed with cash, 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:20.399 always with wads of money in his pockets. Where did 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:23.359 the money come from? Why do you have so much money? 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:25.440 And he's like, you like money, that's why he got 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:30.480 with me, and it's just like, okay, you have a point. True. However, 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:33.920 now is the time to ask questions because I could 0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:36.840 show you where I get mine. I bust my ass 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:41.080 literally on a poll. What are you doing? I remember 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:44.520 when I said that, he got really pissed and left again, 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:48.360 took the car again, and I would just go walk 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:51.040 to friends houses because it's like you took my car, 0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:54.640 so I would just go walk and it was like 0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:58.280 he had come back in the night and just flip 0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:01.200 it around. I need to do that creepy shit where 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:02.920 he'd like sit in the corner with the cigara and 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:05.359 all dark so you can just see like the cherry 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:07.520 of it all read, and then he flipped the line 0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:10.480 on them, but like where have you been, just as 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:12.639 he did when he introduced himself to the racial justice 0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:16.199 protesters in twenty twenty. Mickey wore military fatigues when he 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:19.520 was married to Cassie. He had patches all over his shirt, 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:21.320 the kind that looked like they have to be earned 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:24.960 in battle. He spoke some Kurdish and he told Cassie 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:28.080 he'd fought in the Rock. But she soon learned that 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:33.800 his uniform and patches weren't exactly standard issue. He'd buy 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:36.960 his uniform at the local army surplus store, and those 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:39.760 patches he'd get them printed at a local shop. We've 0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:41.439 got to calar on the middles a lot because they 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:43.960 knew like screen printing and patches and stuff. And he's 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:47.320 always like Kurdish this, Kurdish that, And there was actual 0:20:47.440 --> 0:20:50.520 like Kurdish people who worked there. Oh, they hated him 0:20:50.600 --> 0:20:53.320 because they were like, this is illegal. But he pumped 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:55.480 him up so much and made him believe that he 0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:59.840 was actually Kurdish like because he learned the language. One day, 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:03.120 Mickey began telling Cassie that the Peshmerga, the Kurdish fighting 0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:06.399 force in Iraq, had called him up for duty. She 0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:09.560 had to buy his plane ticket, which even then she 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:14.120 thought was strange considering they was being called up. But whatever, 0:21:14.520 --> 0:21:17.679 Cassie thought, maybe that's how it works with the Kurdish forces. 0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:22.480 So Mickey the Punisher in his own mind, flew to 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:25.919 Iraq to join the Peshmerga fighting the Islamic State. But 0:21:26.000 --> 0:21:28.919 Mickey's tour in the Middle East didn't last long. I 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:30.960 spoke to several people who were with Mickey in Iraq, 0:21:31.440 --> 0:21:33.520 and few of them wanted to be publicly associated with 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:36.440 him in any way. You know how when you first 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:38.800 meet people or either go to a job, you know, 0:21:38.960 --> 0:21:42.400 everyone wants to do like a little round table, introduce 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:46.640 yourself stuff like that. Well that's what we did. One 0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:48.480 of these guys agreed to be recorded if I didn't 0:21:48.560 --> 0:21:51.840 use his name. He remembered meeting Mickey when he first 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:58.000 arrived in Iraq, and Mickey, out of everybody, he was like, yeah, 0:21:58.040 --> 0:22:02.200 I'm retired sergeant major of Army, which already knew that 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:06.000 was bullshit because the dude was only like forty years old, 0:22:06.160 --> 0:22:09.160 forty two something like that. But he was like, yeah, 0:22:09.160 --> 0:22:12.160 I was retired from the French Foreign Legion after ten years. 0:22:12.280 --> 0:22:16.920 So obviously all that time doesn't actually add up. How 0:22:17.000 --> 0:22:20.000 much combat did did Mickey c in A Rock and 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:24.520 Syrie when you were with him, Oh the sea, So 0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:30.800 our very first fight, firefight, he showed up very very late, 0:22:31.359 --> 0:22:34.919 like right at the tail end of the firefight. I 0:22:35.000 --> 0:22:38.239 mean he was going around telling everybody he was a 0:22:38.280 --> 0:22:45.680 demolition specialist. Dude was going around literally cutting wires off 0:22:45.720 --> 0:22:49.000 of IDs, so he could have got anybody's killed, you 0:22:49.000 --> 0:22:53.080 know in the vicinity. Was he a skilled fighter or 0:22:53.440 --> 0:22:55.600 you know, like, how would you despire them? No? Okay, 0:22:57.400 --> 0:23:01.480 call of duty. There you go that he got most 0:23:01.520 --> 0:23:06.360 of his training from video games, I would say, more 0:23:06.400 --> 0:23:11.119 or less TV. When Mickey was with the Peshmurga and 0:23:11.160 --> 0:23:14.000 I Rock, he'd posts pictures of dead bodies on Facebook. 0:23:14.640 --> 0:23:19.120 Sometimes he'd pose with them. These pictures always seems suspicious 0:23:19.160 --> 0:23:21.679 to me. Because the bodies Mickey would pose next to 0:23:22.440 --> 0:23:26.080 appeared to have been dead for a while. I found 0:23:26.080 --> 0:23:28.960 a guy named Alan Duncan, a Scottish volunteer fighter for 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:32.439 the Peshmerga. At the time I contacted him, he was 0:23:32.440 --> 0:23:35.399 in Kiev helping Ukrainian forces as a medic during the 0:23:35.400 --> 0:23:38.440 early months of the Russian invasion. Power things in Key 0:23:38.600 --> 0:23:43.679 for you, Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's fine. It depends 0:23:43.680 --> 0:23:45.359 on the part of the city that you're in. You know, 0:23:45.440 --> 0:23:47.639 the sorry rens go off every now and again, but 0:23:48.440 --> 0:23:52.399 there's no blinkket carpet and they seemed very target at 0:23:52.520 --> 0:23:55.320 the minutes. You know. Duncan knew about Mickey's tour with 0:23:55.320 --> 0:23:58.800 the Peshmerga, and he told me that it wasn't uncommon 0:23:58.840 --> 0:24:02.280 for Americans to come to a rock, take pictures and 0:24:02.280 --> 0:24:05.080 then return home as if they were war heroes. There 0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:08.040 is this really suspicious photo that I saw he had 0:24:08.119 --> 0:24:10.800 posted where it looked like it was it was I 0:24:10.840 --> 0:24:13.639 assume it was an ISIS fighter, could have been another fighter, 0:24:13.680 --> 0:24:16.240 but this guy had clearly been shot in the head 0:24:16.280 --> 0:24:18.320 and his body had been out for quite a while, 0:24:18.440 --> 0:24:21.359 like just based on the deterioration, and Mickey is standing 0:24:21.400 --> 0:24:24.240 over it, like he killed the man. It's like, I 0:24:24.280 --> 0:24:26.000 think that body's been there a while, you know. It's 0:24:26.040 --> 0:24:28.560 like it did seemed like that that he was just 0:24:28.600 --> 0:24:30.760