1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: Quody balus. But Joseph Scott more, it's weird when we 2 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:12,559 Speaker 1: think about the origins of sayings that we have, you know, 3 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: from over the years, and they kind of enter the 4 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: lex kind they stay with us, but we don't consider 5 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: the origins of them. And one in particular that is 6 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: used is the term rule of thumb, and most people 7 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: don't think about the origin of that. Now, it's got 8 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: a dubious origin at best, but when it comes down 9 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: to it, it's a unit of measurement. And no, it 10 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 1: has nothing to do with the size of a stick 11 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: one can beat their wife with. That's a fallacy that's 12 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 1: been proven as untrue. It's actually a unit of measurement 13 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: for construction that was devised back in the Middle Ages. 14 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: But today we're going to talk about not a rule, 15 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: but we're going to talk about a thumb, a thumb 16 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: that was removed from a man's hand, his right hand 17 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: in particular, in order to accomplish something that is absolutely 18 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 1: positively horrific. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybacks. Dave. Wow, 19 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,759 Speaker 1: this case kind of landed on us for a moment. 20 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: Had to go back and reread the few versy lines 21 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: actually the headline, because the headline that I initially saw 22 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: contained contained the line that the victim in this case, 23 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: his thumb had actually been removed. And I guess one 24 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: of the biggest questions is he did obviously recovering on 25 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: body backs. 26 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 2: Well, there you go, and as I hope that he 27 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 2: was dead. 28 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: When his thumb was removed. 29 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 3: And I've got to ask you about that, Joe. That's 30 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 3: in my notes to ask you. All. 31 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 2: Right, here we go. 32 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 3: We've got fifty three year old fossil Tekelmerian. Fossil was 33 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 3: murdered and then his thumb was cut off either right 34 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 3: before he died or after he died, and was used 35 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 3: to access his digital apps for money. I have one 36 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 3: of these on my phone where I can use my thumb, 37 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 3: you know, as an identifier as opposed to typing in 38 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 3: a number or anything else. 39 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 2: Is my thumb. 40 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 3: I'm now considering changing that, But that's. 41 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 1: What they in the wake of the story. 42 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 3: You are, yeah, because really I didn't think this was 43 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 3: a I didn't think about it, Joe. 44 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:46,239 Speaker 2: I just didn't. 45 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 3: The bottom line always is the bottom line. Fossil was 46 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 3: murdered for money. That's it. And there's a total of 47 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 3: five people that are involved in this, two women are 48 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 3: already in jail, a third one is talking to police. 49 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 3: It does think get much deeper than this. No, it 50 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 3: doesn't to steal his money. But the fact from an 51 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 3: investigative perspective, Dave, the beauty of this, if there is beauty, 52 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 3: is first off, the question that you would ask, what's 53 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 3: the purpose of removing the thumb? Okay, when you're observing 54 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 3: the scene, And I think that that's I think that's 55 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 3: kind of an obvious question, but not necessarily why the 56 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 3: thumb as opposed to the other nine digits that this 57 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 3: individual has, because to this point we only know the 58 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 3: single digit of the thumb that is missing. So is 59 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 3: was it a torture event? I think you know, you 60 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 3: would you would ask that question. But as it turns out, 61 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 3: this is this is what we refer to as biometrics, 62 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 3: and there's actually biometric forensics that are out there in 63 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 3: the digital world. And at Kay I learned something new. 64 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 2: What is biometric Yeah, biometric forensics? 65 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: So well, you use it every day. We use it 66 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: every day now. It used to be very space aged. 67 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: And let me tell you a quick story. I'm a 68 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: big James Bond fan, okay, and yes, I to go 69 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: ahead and clear this up from Jump Street. My favorite 70 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: James Bond of all time Sean Connery. So anyway, besides that, 71 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: there was a movie that was made with Sean Connery 72 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 1: when he was older, and it came out in nineteen 73 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: eighty three and it was outside of the James Bond 74 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:34,720 Speaker 1: universe and it. 75 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 2: Was called Never Seen every Day Again. 76 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was Actually I thought it was a 77 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: very good movie. I enjoyed it because I enjoyed Sean Connery. 78 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,119 Speaker 1: But you know, in that movie, they used an early 79 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: form of biometrics because the idea was they were trying 80 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: to get in like every James Bond movie, they're trying 81 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: to get access to a nuclear weapon or nuclear codes. Right. Well, 82 00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: they had taken a US Air Force AF officer and 83 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: done surgery on this guy to implant a retina in 84 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: his eye, and he was going to pose as another 85 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 1: as another pilot, and they had to get biometric I know, 86 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: you're you're rubbing your eyes biometric access to the codes, 87 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 1: and they go through the whole thing. It goes into 88 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 1: great detail and I was shocked by it. I was 89 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: very young man when I saw this movie in the theater. 90 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 1: But that's the early that's that's the early, one of 91 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: the earliest remembrances I have of biometrics, and and still today. 92 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 1: You know, we use retinal scans, we use palm scans. 93 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: You know, you can place your hand on on on 94 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: platform and it'll scan your palm. They use facial recognition. 95 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: That's biometrics. So it's the measurement of all things relative 96 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 1: to you. And when it comes to fingerprints in particular, 97 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: that's one of the oldest things where we apply in 98 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 1: numeric formula two in forensics. It's called the Henry numbering 99 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: system or the Henry system, and it is it equates it, 100 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: it gives a numerical value to each point of identification 101 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 1: along your friction ridge lines. And so they've taken that 102 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: now and expanded that out into access, security and control. 103 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 1: And that's what we're dealing with with this poor man's phone. 104 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 1: And the biggest I think the biggest revealed Dave here 105 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: is the fact that somebody, if this wasn't torture, somebody 106 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: had intimate knowledge of him that he used his thumb 107 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 1: in order to access his phone. They must have seen 108 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: him do it before. 109 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 3: Audrey Miller and Tiffany Taylor Gray Audrey's nineteen. Tiffany Taylor 110 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 3: Gray is twenty two. They both knew Fossil, he's fifty three. 111 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 3: They knew him. They're very close acquaintance's, business friends, whatever 112 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 3: you want to call it. And they knew him in 113 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 3: the biblical sense. They knew this man and they knew 114 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 3: how he accessed things. As a matter of fact, Tiffany 115 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 3: Taylor Gray had been charged a year before this with 116 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 3: stealing sixteen hundred dollars from Fossil and not exactly sure 117 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 3: how all that went down, but anyway you look at it, 118 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 3: a lot of us use our thumb in opening up 119 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 3: our phone, and when so many people have their financial 120 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 3: data using apps on the phone to pay bills and 121 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 3: things like that, once you're in, you're in, and that 122 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 3: thumb scan can get you into your banking information in 123 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 3: a lot of cases. 124 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: I am amazed, you know, having a son that is, 125 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: you know, in his early twenties college student, I'm amazed 126 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: when he it's almost like he's speaking a foreign language. Yeah, 127 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: you know, like you know, can you shoot me money 128 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: over a cash app? In some manner? And they can 129 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: be on multiple platforms and it goes into an account. 130 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: I know that seems I seem like an old dinosaur. 131 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: I understand that. That's okay. I'll roll like that. I'll 132 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: take that. But there are so many of these things 133 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: where this thing, this boat anchor, digital boat anchor, that 134 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,239 Speaker 1: we all carry around in our pocket, it not only 135 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: has the ability to track us, but also the most 136 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: intimate details of our lives. My papa used to say 137 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: when I was young, he would say, son, do yourself 138 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 1: a favor. Never discussed with anybody, what church you attend, 139 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: who you voted for, or how much you make, And 140 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 1: in this case, I think the latter was discussed at 141 00:08:55,640 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: nauseam Dave, other than the thumb. I think that probably 142 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: one of the one of the things that was so 143 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: striking to me about this case was the fact that 144 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: they apparently have tons of CCTV footage in this particular case, 145 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: and the fact, you know, people think that they're so 146 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 1: smart with the way and that they're so sophisticated with 147 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: what they can do digitally, but people are so ignorant 148 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: when it comes to not being not being situationally aware 149 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: where they if you're going to perpetrate a crime where 150 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: you face is constantly being caught on Cameron. They were 151 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 1: in the DC metro area here. 152 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 3: I was going to point that out, Joe, and I 153 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 3: wonder how different it is there than in other parts 154 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 3: of the country. This is in a building, an apartment building, right, 155 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 3: so depending on the area. I can't imagine not having 156 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 3: security cameras in an apartment building like that, you know, 157 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 3: because something can happen inside that apartment building and you 158 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 3: need a record of it. You need to know who 159 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 3: is there and when. And that's what we did find out. 160 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 3: In reality. 161 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: I got to tell you, I don't know if you've 162 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: got any friends that live in the DC area, but 163 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 1: it is one of the most expensive places in the 164 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: US that you can live. And so in my mind, 165 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: I don't know how much he was paying per month, 166 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: but one of my demands, I think would be, if 167 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: I'm paying out this kind of money, I better have security. 168 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: I better have CCTV. But you know that any kind 169 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 1: of camera that might give you comfort that the people 170 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:55,559 Speaker 1: that own the apartment is not necessarily for your benefit. 171 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 1: It's for their benefit because they're trying to, you know, 172 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:00,959 Speaker 1: give you the sense of secure or they're trying to 173 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: knock down the possibility of crime. Which of course didn't 174 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: thwart anything here. I think that goes to the potentially 175 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 1: the mindset of the people that are perpetrating this. But 176 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: you know, you would think that you would have an 177 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,959 Speaker 1: awareness if you're a perpetrator particularly, and I'm going to 178 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 1: go ahead and throw out this term, Dave. You you 179 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:25,559 Speaker 1: had mentioned that this young woman knew him, and well 180 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: you said the biblical sense, I'll say the Abraham Sarah 181 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: SnSe uh. You know that he you know, he knew them. 182 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: One of these young ladies had actually used the term 183 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: sugar daddy, said that this this is my sugar daddy. 184 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:49,559 Speaker 1: And you know, that implication for me flies to first off, prostitution. 185 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: So you know, I'm thinking, okay, so you're actually saying 186 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: that he's a sugar daddy, you're being paid by him 187 00:11:56,360 --> 00:12:00,679 Speaker 1: for services, and if you're willing to do that to 188 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:04,319 Speaker 1: take money from this man because he's your quote unquote 189 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 1: sugar daddy, and maybe you're getting favors from him in exchange, 190 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: how many other people do you have in your circle 191 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: that you're also exchanging you know, I don't know, intimate 192 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: acts with maybe drugs, anything like this. So all of 193 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: a sudden, your world kind of opens up when you 194 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 1: begin to think about who might be involved in a 195 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 1: case like this. 196 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 3: Dave, Well, this is in Fossil actually suffered a beating. 197 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 3: And you know, we know we led with this. We 198 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 3: didn't bury the lead. But the man's thumb was cut 199 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 3: off and it we don't know if it was before 200 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:46,679 Speaker 3: or after he was dead, but he was beaten, he 201 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:54,079 Speaker 3: was stabbed, and the physical attack on this man. We'll 202 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 3: know more as it comes out, but right now we 203 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 3: do know that he was beaten. And I don't think 204 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 3: it was just from these women. 205 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: No, I don't either you. I think you had mentioned, Dave, 206 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: that there were we've got I know, one named male 207 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: suspect at this point in Tom and they are apparently 208 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 1: a couple of other ones. And again I come back 209 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:19,359 Speaker 1: to the CCTV. 210 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:21,959 Speaker 2: Uh right, I got I'm Joe. 211 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: You can actually see you can actually see what appear 212 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 1: to be males on those CCTV food. 213 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 3: Well, and I want to apologize. When we started the show, Gang, 214 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,199 Speaker 3: I spilled a cup of coffee that went everywhere, and 215 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 3: it's it's a little disconcerting how we depend so much 216 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 3: on electronics to this day. And I'm thinking about that, 217 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 3: Joe as I spilled my coffee, and I thought these 218 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 3: people organized a theft that was based on a murder 219 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 3: followed by the hacking of a thumb. I wonder if 220 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 3: there was a discussion about what would happen to the 221 00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 3: thumb after it severed from the body. Will it starts 222 00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 3: to immediately? Like the reason I'm saying the coffee thing 223 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 3: is I've watched the coffee, the coffee dripping off of 224 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 3: one of the tables in here, and I'm watching it 225 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 3: constantly drip. But you know what, since I'm not adding 226 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 3: any more coffee to that cup this spilled. Once this 227 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 3: finish is dripping, there won't be anymore. And I'm wondering 228 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 3: about the thumb because once you sever that thumb from 229 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 3: the hand, it's now by itself. There's no more blood 230 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 3: coming into it, It's just going out. How will that 231 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 3: thumb react over a period of time in terms of 232 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 3: being able. 233 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 2: To use it? 234 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 3: They used it to open up his phone, to open 235 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 3: up his apps and financial apps. How long will that 236 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 3: thumb last? 237 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: This might be one of the best questions you've ever 238 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: posed to me. And I'm glad you opened the door 239 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: for this, because in the morgue and let me tell 240 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: you what we do, because some people are not aware 241 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: of this. When we pull bodies. Do you remember when 242 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: you were little, mom, Mom would just how long you've 243 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: been in the pool, by how wrinkled your fans? 244 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 3: Here? 245 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: Come here and let us see your hands. Yeah, okay, Well, 246 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: part of that is kind of a dehydration event that's 247 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: going on. And one of the things that you're faced 248 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: with with with decomposing tissue is this idea of what's 249 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: referred to kind of one of these ten dollars words 250 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: of desiccation and desiccation is and we've heard about desiccation 251 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: like desiccated fruit. You can have desicated meat, you know 252 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: that's been dried out, like jerky that's desiccated, and if 253 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: you like with reduced things, if you add water to it, 254 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 1: it brings brings the thing back to life. But with 255 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: for us and the morgue, when we're trying to if 256 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: we have a drowned body, for instance, and we're trying 257 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: to rehydrate the fingers, it's pretty wild. Most people don't 258 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: know this. What we will do is we'll get the subs. 259 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: It's called tissue builder and more Tissians use it. And 260 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: when we die if it's like it's like it's almost 261 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: like a botox on steroids, because as we die, we 262 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: our eyes begin to recede back into our head, all 263 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: these sorts of things, and they will apply tissue builder 264 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: to literally build tissue up. And it's an injectable. Well, 265 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: we use it in the morgue to go right beneath 266 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: the skin and inject inject this tissue builder in there, 267 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: and it makes the hand the fingertip reef swell, so 268 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: we can actually take it and roll a print off 269 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: of it. The one thing you cannot defeat, though, is 270 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: the process of decomposition, because you can continue to put 271 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: tissue builder in there, but this is still going to well, 272 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: I'll just say it plainly, it's still going to rot, 273 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 1: by the way, oh yeah yeah, And even I think 274 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: you could possibly retard it a little bit if you 275 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:10,199 Speaker 1: were this forward thinking, where if you took it and 276 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: placed the thumb in a refrigerator somewhere, you're not going 277 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: to stop decomposition. I think that people believe that placing 278 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: something in a freezer stops it slows it, but it's 279 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: still going down. And by the way, cold cold dehydrates 280 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: things too. I mean all you got to do is 281 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: literally look at look at a refrigerator. Sometimes, yeah, freezer burned, 282 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 1: and we also get it on ourselves, you know, during 283 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: the cold weather months. But yeah, it's kind of fascinating 284 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: how you can build this out because what we're looking 285 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 1: for is to try to enhance those friction ridges which 286 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 1: are displayed on the surface of the thumb. And here's 287 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,439 Speaker 1: something really cool. I kind of a little aside for 288 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 1: anybody out there that has and this is kind of 289 00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: a horrible connection here, but you'll see where I'm going 290 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:02,919 Speaker 1: with it. If you want to introduce your child to 291 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: forensics on any level, one of the cool places to 292 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: start is if you will go to a dollar store 293 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:15,639 Speaker 1: and buy white balloons, white deflated balloons, and get an 294 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: ink pad and take your child's finger and roll it 295 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 1: on the ink pad, and then take it and place 296 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,679 Speaker 1: have them put their fingerprint down on the balloon, on 297 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: the deflated balloon, remove it, and then blow the balloon up. 298 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 1: All of a sudden, your fingerprint comes to life and 299 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 1: it expands out and you can see all of the 300 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: little details, all the little friction ridges, the minutia, everything 301 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 1: you can classify the print. We use this all the 302 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: time in college. But it's a matter it's a matter 303 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: of expanding it out to the point where you're able 304 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 1: to actually see those features. But here's the rub. If 305 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: you're going to go to the point of planning to 306 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,639 Speaker 1: do something thing like this where you're going to obviously 307 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 1: kill a man, and after you've brutally killed him by 308 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:11,120 Speaker 1: the way you cut off his thumb, have you thought 309 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: about what's going to happen when everything drives up? Brother Dave, 310 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: we've got this poor man. I don't care who you are. 311 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 1: No one deserves to die like he did. I mean, 312 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 1: this is and when we're about to get into the 313 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: details of this thing, and when I do, you're going 314 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 1: to be shocked if you think the thumb is bad. 315 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: And I still suspect that's probably something that was done 316 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: post mortem, and I'll tell you why in just a second. 317 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: But there's so much to unpack here. You know, he 318 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 1: was I think he was found like after four days. 319 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 3: Well, all right, now, I wanted to ask you about 320 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 3: this shoe because not being the forensic person, I've been 321 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 3: around you, for goodness gracious me, over a well over 322 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 3: a decade on doing crime related reporting and shows. We've 323 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 3: been on the same panel so many times and doing 324 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 3: this show, talking to you about forensics on and off. 325 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 3: I'm really curious as to how the case is going 326 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 3: to be investigated from a police standpoint. You mentioned the 327 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 3: CCTV cameras, and they're going to pull that to find 328 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 3: out who came in and out of Fossil's apartment. That's 329 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 3: going to give you an idea of a when he 330 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 3: was killed, when he died, and who are the possible 331 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 3: suspects in the killing. And the two women that are 332 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 3: already arrested and charged. By the way, they've been charged 333 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 3: with first degree murder and armed felony murder. That's Audrey 334 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 3: Miller and Tiffany Taylor Gray. You've got a nineteen year 335 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 3: old woman and a twenty two year old woman seeing 336 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 3: these charges. Another man, Tommy Whack, What a great name. 337 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: For the same thing. Man. Our brains are. 338 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, he's thirty four and he's been charged in 339 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 3: connection to the case. There are two more people that 340 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 3: have yet to be named that will be charged. And 341 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 3: there is somebody talking. Somebody has been filling the police 342 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 3: in on this whole thing. You have said it many times, 343 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 3: somebody always tosks. 344 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: Somebody's gonna roll over on the other person, you know, 345 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: because they're they're steering, they're staring down the barrel of 346 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,880 Speaker 1: going to the penitentiary, right, And I don't like using 347 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: the term prison, by the way. Penitentiary always sounds so 348 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: much more ominous to me. Yeah, but you know what 349 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: I'm saying. I mean, you're talking about you're talking about 350 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 1: first degree murder and depend upon the state that you're in, 351 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 1: which I don't think is going to apply here. But 352 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 1: when you start talking about first degree, there's all these elements. Obviously, 353 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 1: you know you're looking some people just say capital murder, 354 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: but you're looking many times with first agree, Dave. One 355 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: of the elements that's contained in there is a premeditative feature. 356 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: You know, that thinking is going on here, like plotting, planning, 357 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. And now you've got you know, 358 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: kind of a you know, a confederacy that's that's entered 359 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 1: into the peopling. These guys have entered into a criminal enterproval. 360 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 3: When somebody shows up in your building wearing masks and 361 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 3: they go to your apartment, that tells you there's your 362 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 3: pre meditation. They had something Heini's online and that's actually 363 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 3: what happened to Audrey Miller. Taylor Gray captured on camera 364 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 3: going from his apartment, coming and going from his apartment 365 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,640 Speaker 3: with two other men and wearing masks. So you've got 366 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 3: the women going in, you've got them coming out. You 367 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 3: had the women going back in with a couple of 368 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 3: men going back out. They're wearing the men are wearing masks. 369 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 3: That's one of the reasons I say, well, pre meditation. 370 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 2: There you go. They know they're cameras. 371 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, they do. Hey, can I throw in one more 372 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: bit here about electronics that you might be amazed by. 373 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 1: Not only did they make off with his electronic devices, 374 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: you know we're talking about I think they even mentioned 375 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: the term iPad they did. But here's the other thing 376 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 1: that they made off with. They made off with a keyfob. 377 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,679 Speaker 1: Dave a keyfob that gives you access to the building. 378 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: So guess what, every time that keyfob is tapped to 379 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: that pad, that initiates a logging event in their electronic 380 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,880 Speaker 1: log So for us in forensics, you know we're talking 381 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: about I think I don't want to get this wrong, 382 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 1: but I think it was like they found he was 383 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: last known alive like four days prior to they found 384 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 1: him four days. You know, you can take you can 385 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 1: actually get a measurement. Perhaps it would become tangential, but 386 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 1: you can get a measurement perhaps relative to how decomposed 387 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,159 Speaker 1: he was, because after four days his body would have 388 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: been showing some signs of decomposition. And every time somebody 389 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: hit that keyfob to get access to the building. They've 390 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: got CCTV of these people removing stuff and from his apartment. 391 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:16,160 Speaker 3: Joe, when because I don't know, if you have your 392 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 3: thumb cut off and you don't treat it, you just 393 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 3: sit there in the chair drinking coffee with your good hand, 394 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 3: will you bleed to death? 395 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 1: Yeah? And you'll be in excruciating pain as well. It 396 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:32,439 Speaker 1: would be a horrible way to die by what's referred 397 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: to as exsanguination, which is a fancy term that they 398 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 1: use to talk about bleeding out. So you would exsanguinate 399 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 1: and there would be a huge pool of blood that 400 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 1: was adjacent. The only thing that might save you is, 401 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 1: you know, like I said, these indwelling clotting factors that 402 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: we have, Could the clotting factors outpace or stem the flow, 403 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,120 Speaker 1: you would have to apply direct pressure. I can't imagine 404 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: anybody that wouldn't grab their thumb with their other hand 405 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 1: their stone ump rather applaud direct pressure. 406 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm thinking you would. You'd have to do something. 407 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: But anyway, all right, I tell you cut this guy's 408 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 1: thumb off. In life. Let me just tell you this, 409 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: there would be blood. Not to say that there's not 410 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: blood everywhere, but there would be blood everywhere. He would 411 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:18,360 Speaker 1: have been pumping blood and you would see it all 412 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:18,880 Speaker 1: over the place. 413 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 3: And I'm thinking that there's a fight, something's going on, 414 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 3: because it wasn't like he was shot in the head 415 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 3: from behind and didn't know what was going on and 416 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 3: they chopped his thumb off and went about their merry way. 417 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 3: There was an active fight that took place before he died. 418 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,719 Speaker 3: He had multiple injuries, and that's what I was wondering. 419 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 3: You know, if his thumb was chopped off while he 420 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 3: was alive, it would it be spurting. And you have 421 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 3: to wonder, Okay, the women did refer to him as 422 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 3: a sugar daddy. I have to wonder if there wasn't 423 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 3: some animosity, if there wasn't some real hatred going on 424 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 3: here between these young women and this man who's paying 425 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 3: them for their time and their bodies. But when police 426 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 3: actually start their investigation, he's already been dead for a 427 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 3: couple of days. They need to find out who did it, 428 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 3: end it. Motive is always a good thing when you 429 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 3: go to trial, they're trying to figure out why they 430 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 3: did it. Sadly, I think this could have been as 431 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 3: simple as money and drugs. But what did they do 432 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,400 Speaker 3: to this man? What did these two women and any 433 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,479 Speaker 3: other people involved do to this fifty three year old 434 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 3: man in his own apartment. 435 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was multiple people. I think they stomped 436 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:32,959 Speaker 1: this guy out, is essentially what it came down to. 437 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 1: And let me talk to you about these injuries. Now 438 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: we know that there was an edged weapon involved here. 439 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 1: He's got multiple stab wounds, including one that's apparently and 440 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 1: I'll just describe it to you the way I read it. 441 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 1: He's got an abdominal stab WOONND that is immediately adjacent 442 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 1: to the stomach that is so deep that it actually 443 00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 1: goes into his spine. So you're talking about probably a 444 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: person that is laying on their back, because you would 445 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: have to be in such a position to drive an 446 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:11,199 Speaker 1: edge weapon into somebody's body where it actually communicates with 447 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: the spine. If you're entering it antiily, that's a tremendous 448 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:16,880 Speaker 1: amount of force, Dave. So he's already in a position 449 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: of submission. And this is what I think, all right. 450 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,959 Speaker 1: I believe he's been kicked, probably punched. He's got multiple 451 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:32,400 Speaker 1: lacerations to about his head. He's got multiple fractures, Dave, 452 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: to his skull. This I think, when you look at 453 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 1: the frenzied activity of this, this is consistent. You know 454 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: how I talked about how the thumb was maybe it 455 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: was a torture event relative to thought. No, no, no, no, 456 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:52,119 Speaker 1: the thumb came afterwards. They were trying to extract information 457 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 1: for him to get to the honeypot, and the honeypot 458 00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 1: for them was his bank accounts. And maybe, just maybe 459 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 1: obviously there's anger involved because you don't go over the 460 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: top like this. You know where one stab wound would 461 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 1: have sufficed you know what I'm saying. No, that's not 462 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 1: what we're talking about. We're talking about multiple injuries this guy. 463 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: When the Emmys investigators would have rolled up at the scene, 464 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 1: this guy would have looked like ground beef. He would 465 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 1: have been so brutalized at that point time, and there 466 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:32,640 Speaker 1: would have been blood everywhere because he's got multiple defects 467 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 1: in his body, I mean, for lack of a holes 468 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,439 Speaker 1: in his body that been created by the knife. So 469 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 1: he's bleeding out in life. So you're going to have 470 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: this huge kind of deposition of blood that'll be surrounding 471 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: the body, and it won't just be around his body. 472 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 1: If this started somewhere else and he was stabbed in 473 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 1: another room, because his body was actually found in the bedroom. 474 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 1: If if this kicked off in another room and he 475 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: stabbed initially, you're gonna have a blood trail that's gonna 476 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: lead all over the place. This guys, it's almost like 477 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: I don't know if anyone here has ever done this, 478 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 1: but if you've ever been out in the yard and 479 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 1: you bumped into a wasp nest, the one thing you're 480 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 1: trying to do is get away from it. When that 481 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: first sting, well just imagine you've got these people that 482 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: are attacking him. You want to try to put as 483 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: much distance that initial stab wound or whatever it was. 484 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: You won't try to put as much distance between yourself 485 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 1: and them. You could have deposition of blood throughout the house. 486 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: I've seen this played out over the years in cases 487 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: I've worked where you'll have contact trace blood on the 488 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: walls where people I saw in Travis Alexander actually with 489 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: Jody Arius, that was a great example of this, where 490 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: you could actually see his movement through the house after 491 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: that horrible person that stabbed this guy in the shower 492 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: and at the scene you can see where he kind 493 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: of walks his hands down the wall. He's crawling on 494 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 1: the surface of the carpet. Not to mention the deposition 495 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 1: over the sink, which was absolutely ghastly because they had 496 00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: clipped his lung. But you have deposition of blood, it's 497 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 1: gonna not just be on him the floor they it's 498 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: going to be on the perpetrators as well. And I 499 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: think that's a big, big point to this. They're going 500 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: to have an awareness that they're going to be leaving 501 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: this house with physical evidence on them, and they're leaving 502 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: physical evidence behind. 503 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 3: They tried to clean it up, and I thought that 504 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 3: was fascinating the way the police dealt with this in 505 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 3: their report, and because it clearly states that they had 506 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 3: a lot of cleaning supplies that have been used and 507 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 3: they didn't get everything. In particular, there was a footprint 508 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 3: left behind and all I could think of Joe is 509 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 3: because when we clean something on the surface and it 510 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 3: looks clean on TV, it shows luminol, you know, using 511 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 3: the black lights, spraining of luminol, and here it is. 512 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 3: Now you've got all your stuff right back there. It 513 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 3: didn't actually get wiped away. Is that a real thing? 514 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: It is a real thing. You just better have your 515 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: camera ready, okay, because you know the luminescence of this thing, 516 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: it only lasts for a few seconds. I think people 517 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 1: think that. So what you have to have is somebody 518 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: that's going to apply this agent, and it could be Luminol, 519 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: it could be Blue Star. There's a couple of these 520 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: agents out there. And so you have to have your camera, 521 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 1: your camera person has to be ready, and you have 522 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 1: to have your settings on your camera right because you're 523 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 1: doing this in total darkness, right all right, and so 524 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: and it's only going to lumin u s and the 525 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 1: you don't want here's the thing from a forensic perspective, 526 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: you don't just want something that looks like a footprint, 527 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: like if it's been left behind by shoe. You want 528 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 1: something that you can capture where you're going to be 529 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: able to find detail in that shoeprint that you can 530 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: actually tie back to an individual. And let's just I 531 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: don't know, let's throw a pair of Nikes and I'm 532 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: not a Nike fan. I don't wear Nikes. I'm gonna 533 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: be yeah, there you go. I don't know. They have 534 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 1: a variety of different patterns. But when you look at 535 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: shoe patterns, every crime lab has a running catalog of 536 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: current shoe pattern that are out there, and they can 537 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 1: kind of go through and match these things up, and 538 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 1: they can look at what family. It's like a it 539 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: looks like genealogy they have. Okay, this is the Asex family, 540 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: this is a Nike family, Adida's family, so Forth, Brooks, 541 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: so forth and so on, and then they kind of 542 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: track down from there and then they try to isolate that. 543 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 2: So that Joe. Yeah, so that arms. 544 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 1: The police when they go out, let me see your shoes. 545 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: You know, we're coming in your house. Where's your shoes? 546 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,719 Speaker 1: Because they know that whoever was here in this and 547 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: I think this is probably going to turn out to 548 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 1: be a true blood bath. They're going to know, you 549 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: know that there'll be some remnant left on the shoe. 550 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 1: We want to we're going to get a warrant for 551 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 1: your shoes. We're going to collect your shoes and also 552 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: any kind of clothing that you might have in the house, 553 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: because look, I have no idea what blood type this 554 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 1: guy was, no idea whatsoever. But if his blood is 555 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: found on them and they can group that blood and 556 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: then do a DNA, I'm not saying it's slam dunk, 557 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: but I'm saying that that's that's going to be a major, 558 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: a major wrinkle thrown into the case for these people. 559 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 3: Now, when the medical examiner released or report, it's never 560 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 3: the in depth report that you would see or that 561 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 3: you would prepare. This is something you used through the 562 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 3: media where they've just kind of, you know, gloss over 563 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 3: things and just try to tell a quick story. 564 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, but. 565 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 3: How many of how many of the wounds were actually 566 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 3: fatal or was it the combination of all of them. 567 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 1: I think it was the totality of them. Because once 568 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: you start to push push somebody traumatically, you know, one 569 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: one injury is not necessarily going to dictate dictate that 570 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,959 Speaker 1: you're going to die, but you begin to heap, and 571 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: I think that any clinician that's practicing, even in an 572 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: emergency room, they'll tell you the same thing. If you 573 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: just you know, if you just cut your arm, okay, 574 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 1: but oh while you got your while you were cutting 575 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 1: your arm, you fell to the ground, you struck the 576 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 1: back of your head, and you've got internal bleeding inside 577 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,239 Speaker 1: your skull. All those two things in combination. So it's 578 00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 1: it's the totality of all the injuries. Here's here's the 579 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,399 Speaker 1: thing that I'm thinking about. And I hope people don't 580 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: run screaming into the night when I reveal this about 581 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: myself in the morgue, I've I've actually had to remove fingers, 582 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 1: okay in the morgue. And I will tell you generally, 583 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: with removal of fingers in the morgue, and we do 584 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 1: this because bodies are decomposing. And remember I told you 585 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: we try to rehydrate these these these digits and inject them. 586 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: We have to let them sit up for a little while. 587 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 1: When you do this, it's not something that you injected 588 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,839 Speaker 1: and then you immediately go over and roll a print 589 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,759 Speaker 1: off of it. Dave, did you know that, out of 590 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 1: all of the appendages on the end of our hands, 591 00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: the thumb is the most robust, and I think most 592 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 1: of us can look at it. It is the most 593 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: difficult to separate from the body. Do you know what 594 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 1: we what I would use in order to take off 595 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 1: We didn't use the scalpel. I used something that you 596 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,279 Speaker 1: could buy days hardware. I used actually a pair of 597 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,879 Speaker 1: printing shears with the hooked you know, the hook beak 598 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 1: on it, and they were very sharp. We would send 599 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 1: it out. We had a knife sharpener that would sharpen 600 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: these things for us. But even as sharp as that 601 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 1: thing was, you just go up to the first knuckle 602 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: and you cut it. And I'm thinking, knowing what I 603 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: know about my involvement, you know, of doing exams in 604 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 1: the Morgan working with forensic pathologists, I'm wondering, did they 605 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 1: did they show up with something like this, would that 606 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:46,879 Speaker 1: specific content or did they did they because this guy 607 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: that he's not a gardener, he lives in an apartment 608 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 1: in suburban d C. Did they go to the knife 609 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:58,839 Speaker 1: drawer in the kitchen? Is that what they did and 610 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 1: then take a steak because you have to have a 611 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 1: serrated edge to get into that joint. You got to 612 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 1: find that. And I don't know, Maybe these people are 613 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: anatomical superstars. Maybe they both have PhDs in human anatomy. 614 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 1: I don't know. My suspicion is is that they don't. 615 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: I think my question is have they ever participated in 616 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,160 Speaker 1: an action like this before? And the reason I'm making 617 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,960 Speaker 1: a big deal out of this is that contrary to 618 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:31,840 Speaker 1: which see on television and true crime stories that are fictionalized, 619 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,319 Speaker 1: this is not something that happens every day. This is 620 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:40,360 Speaker 1: actually what we refer to as an outlier. That's why 621 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: that whoever did this was purposed brutal and in the 622 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 1: end all they wanted was this man's money, but in 623 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 1: the end they got his life. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan 624 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:06,840 Speaker 1: and this is Bodybacks