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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: There's some hidden back there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it always happens to me.

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Speaker 4: It changed.

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Speaker 1: I'm with Gerald and Hilary Fox and their granddaughter Meg

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Speaker 1: Edwards in Birkhamsted, England. We're exploring the grounds of the

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Speaker 1: Quaker meetinghouse, where John Tall would meet with fellow Quakers

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Speaker 1: later in his life. The small cemetery there is well kept,

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Speaker 1: but we're hoping to look at the little lawn in

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Speaker 1: the back for a small village. Berkhamsted has a lot

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Speaker 1: of construction today, so it's hard to talk.

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Speaker 4: So I wonder if this is all original?

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Speaker 3: My ELPs, what is it?

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Speaker 1: The building was made in nineteen eighteen.

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Speaker 4: I think there was there was a shadow of something.

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Speaker 2: Maybe the eighth look like a yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: I just obstruct by how modest this is compared to

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Speaker 1: the church. I mean, it's amazing.

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Speaker 2: That is the thing that click is very, very.

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Speaker 1: Simpl This meeting house and its property is so important

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Speaker 1: because John Taull would stroll these same grounds more than

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Speaker 1: one hundred and seventy years earlier. No amount of research

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Speaker 1: in an archive can replace that. But I can't always

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Speaker 1: control the environment.

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Speaker 4: See what.

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Speaker 1: It was too noisy, so I tried to move to

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Speaker 1: another location further in the back by the bushes. But

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Speaker 1: no luck. None of this is working out. And perhaps

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Speaker 1: I've received an omen because I got my first injury

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Speaker 1: on the job.

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Speaker 3: Oh I grabbed a.

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Speaker 1: Bush over there and it oh, yeah, it's okay.

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Speaker 5: I was trying to move for this.

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Speaker 3: It's okay.

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Speaker 1: It's stings.

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Speaker 3: See it's oh.

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Speaker 1: I just for something in there, see it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Good tho, Yes, there's a there.

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Speaker 5: You need tweezes to get it out.

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Speaker 1: I have tweezers at home, but you both sweet, thank you.

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Speaker 1: After I recovered from the thorn, I left the meetinghouse

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Speaker 1: with the Foxes and Meg. Now we need to go

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Speaker 1: back in time and actually leave the country. John Taull's

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Speaker 1: story continues in Australia in eighteen twenty three. By then,

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Speaker 1: John Tall, the convicted forger and suspected thief, had been

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Speaker 1: building a lovely life in a penal colony in Sydney

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Speaker 1: for almost a decade. He had established the first Quaker

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Speaker 1: house in the country. He sat on the board of

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Speaker 1: a bank. His pharmacies and various real estate deals led

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Speaker 1: to a lucrative importing exporting business, and Tall's family lived

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Speaker 1: in a lovely home. That year he had sent for

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Speaker 1: his wife Mary and his two sons, John and William.

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Speaker 1: Little is known about the young men, but Tall's great

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Speaker 1: great granddaughter, Hilary Fox, has done a bit of research

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Speaker 1: on their life in Australia.

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Speaker 2: The boys were educated at Doctor Halleran Sydney Grammar School.

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Speaker 2: In eighteen twenty four, William Henry won a book prize

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Speaker 2: and John Downing a silver medal for Latin.

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Speaker 1: Five years later, the country's census gave details about John

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Speaker 1: Tall's pharmacy business and his other son, John Junior.

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Speaker 2: In eighteen twenty eight, Ambrose Fostport the business. By the

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Speaker 2: time of that year's sinceus retired apothecary, John Tull was

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Speaker 2: living in Castlereah Street with his wife, and the seventeen

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Speaker 2: year old youngest son, William John Junior, was in England

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Speaker 2: and studying in medicine. That that was the only reference

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Speaker 2: I've ever seen for those children.

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Speaker 1: Clearly, both of the younger Tall men were bright and

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Speaker 1: their father had expected much of them. That's what their

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Speaker 1: education tells us. Tall's fourteen year prison sentence expired in

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Speaker 1: eighteen twenty eight and author Carol Baxter says he could

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Speaker 1: have taken the family back to England immediately. I asked, Carol,

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Speaker 1: when most people who were convicted of crimes were allowed

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Speaker 1: to leave the penal colony? Was it when they served

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Speaker 1: out their sentence.

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Speaker 3: They had different ways of ending a sentence. Your sentence

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Speaker 3: could be time expired, in which case with a seven

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Speaker 3: year or a fourteen year sentence. Once the sentence expired,

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Speaker 3: yes you were free to do whatever you wanted, but

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Speaker 3: you would have to pay your passage back to the UK.

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Speaker 3: And most of them didn't have enough money to pay

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Speaker 3: their passage, so essentially it was a life sentence.

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Speaker 1: But Tall did have the money to leave, and yet

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Speaker 1: he stayed for another ten years because he was so

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Speaker 1: successful in Australia. But by eighteen thirty eight it was

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Speaker 1: time to return to England. Finally, the Talls packed up

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Speaker 1: their belongings.

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Speaker 3: And John and his family actually went back to the UK.

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Speaker 1: For the return trip. The Tolls traveled aboard a much

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Speaker 1: nicer ship than the one John Tall had taken to

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Speaker 1: Australia two decades before. John Tall was returning to England

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Speaker 1: wealthier than before, much wealthier and more confident, but still sneaky.

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Speaker 1: He had become a significant figure in Quakerism in Australia

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Speaker 1: after he had been cast out by the Quakers in England.

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Speaker 1: So now the question was would he return to the

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Speaker 1: Quakers when he got home.

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Speaker 3: He'd really only just been accepted when he was booted out.

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Speaker 3: The astonishing thing, though, is after a short time of

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Speaker 3: absence where he got over his humiliation, he licked his wounds,

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Speaker 3: so to speak, he went back, and that is extraordinary.

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Speaker 3: He went back and attended their services.

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Speaker 1: Carol Baxter is very skeptical about Toll's commitment to Quakerism.

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Speaker 1: She thinks it was just a shield against the suspicion

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Speaker 1: around his suspicious behavior.

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Speaker 3: He continued wearing their attire because again the attire was

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Speaker 3: the mask that told everyone he was a good man,

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Speaker 3: and it hid the fact that underneath he really wasn't

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Speaker 3: so good.

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Speaker 4: He was a classic Jeckel and Hyde character.

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Speaker 1: Really, But historian Estzala isn't so sure. She's surprised that

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Speaker 1: he continued to be committed to Quakerism.

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Speaker 6: What I find really interesting is that you would want

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Speaker 6: to people do still in this period, move in and

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Speaker 6: out of different denominations of different religions, quite flexibly, and

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Speaker 6: you can stay with one religion for a few years

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Speaker 6: and then you change and you do something else. So

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Speaker 6: he does seem to have idea to fay very strongly

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Speaker 6: with Quakerism.

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Speaker 1: So Tall had many religions to choose from, yet he

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Speaker 1: returned to the group that had rejected him. Perhaps he

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Speaker 1: thought that his wealth would change things and his status

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Speaker 1: would be resurrected, but it wasn't. The Tolls were once

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Speaker 1: again allowed to attend meetings at the Quaker House, but

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Speaker 1: they weren't officially members. That must have been so humiliating

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Speaker 1: for him. But it would get so much worse. Death

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Speaker 1: was coming for the people closest to him, both from

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Speaker 1: illness and murder.

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Speaker 3: Unfortunately, it was the time of things like the cholera epidemic,

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Speaker 3: which ravaged, of course many parts of London and things.

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Speaker 4: Tuberculosis was such a problem.

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Speaker 3: Did you know that in the two hundred years between

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Speaker 3: eighteen hundred and two thousand, tuberculosis killed one billion people

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Speaker 3: in the earth's population. One seventh of the world's population

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Speaker 3: were killed by tuberculosis.

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Speaker 1: Crime historian Angela Buckley says people in Victorian England were

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Speaker 1: frightened of contracting deadly diseases like tuberculosis.

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Speaker 7: I've been doing to working Manchester on this on quack doctors,

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Speaker 7: and the mortality rate around this time was as age eighteen.

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Speaker 5: For working class people.

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Speaker 7: So people were terrified about their health and terrified about

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Speaker 7: catching cholera or typhus or dysentery. You know that would

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Speaker 7: just wipe them out, wipe out communities.

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Speaker 1: Tuberculosis again, the disease was also called consumption. John Tall

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Speaker 1: had gotten it in Australia, probably at the hospital where

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Speaker 1: he worked. He had been really sick. Consumption was incredibly contagious.

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Speaker 1: Every cough emitted a spray of the disease which was

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Speaker 1: targeting another host. And now tuberculosis was spreading across England.

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Speaker 3: TV was a big part of John's John's youngest son, William,

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Speaker 3: got TB and succumbed to it.

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Speaker 1: Just like that, William was gone. His father seemed devastated,

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Speaker 1: and then just a few months after returning from Australia,

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Speaker 1: John Toll's wife, Mary and John Junior also developed that

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Speaker 1: same cough and chest pain and fever.

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Speaker 3: His wife Mary also had TB and his eldest son

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Speaker 3: at some point acquired TB and the doctors advised them

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Speaker 3: to return to Australia because the environment was better for.

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Speaker 4: A TB patient.

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Speaker 3: So they came out to Australia and they were back

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Speaker 3: in New South Wales.

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Speaker 1: But despite the change in climate, Mary continued to struggle

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Speaker 1: with TB, as did Toll's son. Toll seemed to care

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Speaker 1: for them both deeply, as illustrated by his willingness to

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Speaker 1: return to Australia. He could be loving at times, but

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Speaker 1: other times he was terrible. John Junior was still struggling

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Speaker 1: with tuberculosis when he had a conflict with his father,

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Speaker 1: and John Tall reacted.

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Speaker 4: Cruelly his eldest son.

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Speaker 3: He treated in many ways quite appallingly. So the guy

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Speaker 3: was suffering from TV and he went to his father's

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Speaker 3: place to plead for money or whatever, and they found

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Speaker 3: him actually out in the street, on the ground, literally

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Speaker 3: on the ground. His father wouldn't let him in, so

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Speaker 3: he was a very hard man.

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Speaker 1: It didn't help his mood that the Australian climate seemed

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Speaker 1: to have little effect on Mary and their son's illness.

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Speaker 1: Soon John Junior died. It was a dark time for them,

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Speaker 1: and Tall no longer had his businesses in Australia, so

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Speaker 1: he and Mary decided to return to England once again

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Speaker 1: for the second time in less than a.

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Speaker 4: Year, started to sell everything.

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Speaker 3: He'd sold his pharmacy before this, back in the late twenties,

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Speaker 3: and he started to sell everything up with the idea

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Speaker 3: of returning to the UK and not coming back.

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Speaker 1: The Tolls traveled back home with their family even smaller.

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Speaker 4: John returned to London and they rented.

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Speaker 3: Out a very exclusive property near Madam to Sawords.

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Speaker 1: Tuberculosis could have killed John Toll. It had taken the

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Speaker 1: lives of both of his children, and now back in England,

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Speaker 1: his wife continued her battle with the disease. He began

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Speaker 1: treating Mary with medicines. Remember he was an excellent druggist.

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Speaker 1: I told Meg Edwards that I thought this was a

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Speaker 1: pretty big sacrifice for Tolldamke because t B was so

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Speaker 1: contagious and he risked getting sick again, But she didn't

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Speaker 1: quite see it that way.

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Speaker 8: Again, this is another thing of I think it probably

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Speaker 8: made sense to him, whether it's convenience, whether it's.

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Speaker 5: Maybe a little bit of arrogance.

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Speaker 8: He probably thought he was the best person for the

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Speaker 8: job to look after her.

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Speaker 5: He knew what he.

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Speaker 8: Was talking about to an extent. He certainly knew where

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Speaker 8: to find particular medicines. He looked after her to the

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Speaker 8: point of where it made sense to bring in other people.

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Speaker 1: John Tall's wife seemed to be dying and he continued

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Speaker 1: to oversee her treatment. Eventually, her illness would set off

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Speaker 1: a chain of events that would end in murder. But

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Speaker 1: it's definitely not what you think. John Tall needed to

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Speaker 1: make an income in London and he couldn't afford to

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Speaker 1: catch tuberculosis from Mary, so he made a decision that

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Speaker 1: would change the direction of his life. He asked a

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Speaker 1: friend for a recommendation for some professional help.

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Speaker 3: They brought in a nursemaid to look after his wife.

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Speaker 1: Meg Edwards says the woman was bright and reliable.

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Speaker 8: He brings in Sarah Hart, who is a young nurse

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Speaker 8: who's been recommended to him.

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Speaker 1: Sarah would take care of Mary as she struggled with TV,

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Speaker 1: allowing John to work. This might seem like a cliche setup,

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Speaker 1: a man bringing in a younger woman to help his

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Speaker 1: dying wife. It doesn't sound like it'll go very well,

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Speaker 1: but Carol Baxter says Sarah didn't seem to have any

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Speaker 1: ulterior motives.

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Speaker 3: She wasn't the gold digger type at all, fluttering her eyelashes.

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Speaker 4: I think she was just a sweet person.

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Speaker 3: So I just got the sense of her as being

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Speaker 3: a genuinely nice, caring person who was the ideal person

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Speaker 3: to act as a nurse.

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Speaker 1: And though he was about thirty years her senior, John Hall,

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Speaker 1: was attractive. He had a nice house, a good income,

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Speaker 1: and he seemed kind. He would make an excellent husband.

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Speaker 1: But still at this point it seemed innocent on both

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Speaker 1: their parts. Carol Baxter thinks that too.

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Speaker 3: I had no sense of him having cheated on his wife,

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Speaker 3: and I can't imagine that Sarah would have done that either.

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Speaker 3: I thought she had morality and integrity, so I think

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Speaker 3: she was a decent human being.

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Speaker 1: It was late eighteen thirty eight, just a few months

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Speaker 1: after the Tolls had returned from Australia for the second time.

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Speaker 1: Sarah Hart cared for Mary Tall while her husband gave

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Speaker 1: his wife medicine. Caring for someone with TB was a

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Speaker 1: dangerous job for both of them. Medical researchers in the

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Speaker 1: early eighteen hundreds didn't quite understand how tuberculosis worked.

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Speaker 3: The problem was, in those days, they didn't realize that

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Speaker 3: TB was a bacterial infection. So they didn't realize that

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Speaker 3: every cough or sneeze sent sprays of millions of TV

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Speaker 3: into the air. Western medicine really only came into its

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Speaker 3: own from probably the eighteen fifties onwards.

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Speaker 1: There was a lot of herbal medicine in the eighteen hundreds.

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Speaker 3: Through herbs and other things, they did manage to solve

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Speaker 3: a lot of medical problems.

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Speaker 4: With the development of Western medicine.

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Speaker 3: They started to understand germ theory, and they understood how

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Speaker 3: tuberculosis was passed on from one person to another. So

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Speaker 3: there probably wasn't the same sense of contracting it as

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Speaker 3: a nurse because they didn't understand how it was transmitted.

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Speaker 1: Sarah Hart took diligent care of Mary, but eventually tuberculosis

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Speaker 1: proved to be too much for Mary's body. She died

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Speaker 1: in December of eighteen thirty eight. John seemed to mourn

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Speaker 1: his wife's death. Despite the prevalence of death from disease

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Speaker 1: in Victorian England, it still felt like a shock. Just

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Speaker 1: a short while before, he had been a family man,

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Speaker 1: and now he was without a wife and without both

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Speaker 1: of his sons. So after Mary died, John Tall did

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Speaker 1: what so many people do when they find themselves drifting

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Speaker 1: through life alone, he turned to the closest person to him.

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Speaker 1: He and Sarah Hart, his wife's nurse, soon began an

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Speaker 1: affair that lasted for years.

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Speaker 3: So I think was probably in the aftermath of Mary's death,

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Speaker 3: where John was probably very lonely because he was a

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Speaker 3: convict returned to England with wealth and money.

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Speaker 1: Tall had been respected in Australia, but in England he

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Speaker 1: wasn't high society anymore like he had hoped to be.

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Speaker 3: The Quakers were letting him in, but he still wasn't

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Speaker 3: accepted as a Quaker that the people he associated with

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Speaker 3: from a business point of view, knew his background. His

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Speaker 3: financial situation was heavily tied up with the import export business,

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Speaker 3: and to do that he needed to go down to

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Speaker 3: the coffee shops where he got the newspapers, and he

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Speaker 3: met with the shipping agents, and of course they all

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Speaker 3: knew he was a transported convict.

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Speaker 4: So he had that indelible stain on him.

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Speaker 1: So you think he was lonely.

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Speaker 3: And Sarah was probably lonely too, and Sarah was available,

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Speaker 3: and things just happened. From the dates of birth of

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Speaker 3: the children, I got no sense of anything.

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Speaker 4: Possibly happening beforehand.

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Speaker 1: What did Sarah Hort see in John Tole?

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Speaker 3: She was probably so sweet, and perhaps she saw John

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Speaker 3: in the aftermath of his wife's death, where she stayed

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Speaker 3: on as his housekeeper. Perhaps she saw him as stepping

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Speaker 3: stone to marriage.

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Speaker 1: So they ended up in a period of what two years,

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Speaker 1: where they have these two children or is it even

293
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Speaker 1: longer than that?

294
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Speaker 4: Not much more than two years, so we're pretty close.

295
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Speaker 3: One after another, a boy, Alfred and then a little

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Speaker 3: girl Sarah.

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Speaker 1: This wasn't a flang. This relationship, if you could call it,

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Speaker 1: that went on for seven years. But if Sarah Hart

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Speaker 1: were thinking of marrying John Tall, it was wishful thinking.

300
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Speaker 3: I can't possibly see that he would ever have considered

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Speaker 3: marrying Sarah.

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Speaker 4: She didn't offer him anything.

303
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Speaker 3: He wanted to succeed professionally and with the Quakers, and

304
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Speaker 3: she wasn't the sort of person who offered him money,

305
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Speaker 3: opportunity or anything else. So no, I cannot possibly see

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Speaker 3: him as ever having wanted to marry her.

307
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Speaker 1: Sarah was attractive and kind, but she had no standing

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Speaker 1: in the community. She could do nothing to elevate him

309
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Speaker 1: with the Quakers. Would never marry her, But John Tall

310
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Speaker 1: did provide for Sarah and their two children.

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Speaker 3: He started off with them being in London and he

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Speaker 3: moved them around a couple of places in London.

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Speaker 1: Tall didn't abandon them as many men would, but that's

314
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Speaker 1: not saying much. Though he did visit them regularly and

315
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Speaker 1: had meals with them. He and Sarah Hart carried on

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Speaker 1: their affair, but Sarah was told to stay quiet about

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Speaker 1: their relationship. She and the kids had to remain a secret.

318
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Speaker 1: Tall couldn't risk his other life being exposed to the Quakers.

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Speaker 1: He had recently been invited back, not as a member,

320
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Speaker 1: but he was welcome to attend meetings despite his dubious past.

321
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Speaker 1: So Tall agreed to keep Sarah and the children in

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Speaker 1: a secret home. He paid her child support, which was

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Speaker 1: a modest amount one pound a week, but he was

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Speaker 1: very clear she must stay silent. Discretion was exp and

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Speaker 1: disobedience would not be tolerated. Away from Sarah Hart and

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Speaker 1: the children, John Tall searched for a new life.

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Speaker 3: I mean they say most men marry within a year

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Speaker 3: of their wife's death, because I'm never quite sure whether

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Speaker 3: it's for sex, or whether it's for a cook, or

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Speaker 3: whether it's just they're not capable of being on their own.

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Speaker 3: I'm not quite sure women seem to not have that

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Speaker 3: same need to marry, and so maybe in a sense, Sarah,

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Speaker 3: because she was his housekeeper, she provided all those means,

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Speaker 3: you know, the bed and board sort of things. She cooked,

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Speaker 3: she cleaned, she filled his bed.

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Speaker 1: After Mary's death, Tall's affair with Sarah Hart wouldn't stop

337
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Speaker 1: him from marrying someone other than her. He needed someone

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Speaker 1: who could help him both financial and in the Quaker society.

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Speaker 1: The year following his first wife's death, he found her.

340
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Speaker 1: Despite secretly sleeping with his former nurse, Sarah Appleby was attractive,

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Speaker 1: kind and bright, and a birthright Quaker. They met in Birkhamsted,

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Speaker 1: where I've been visiting with Hillary and Gerald and Meg.

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Speaker 1: I asked crime historian Angela Buckley about that area in

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Speaker 1: the mid eighteen hundreds.

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Speaker 7: It would be quite rural, Yeah, absolutely, mostly farming communities,

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Speaker 7: small market towns, so quite big difference. Actually, if you've

347
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Speaker 7: been successful building pharmacies, you know, creating a chain or

348
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Speaker 7: creating a business, to go back to Birkhamsted will be

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Speaker 7: quite sleepy.

350
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Speaker 1: Sarah Appleby might have lived a simple life away from London,

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Speaker 1: but she had higher ambitions.

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Speaker 3: She was a very smart, capable woman, and she met

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Speaker 3: his intellectual aspiration. She was also a Quaker, so she

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Speaker 3: met his Quaker aspirations as well. She would help him

355
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Speaker 3: get back into the fold, so to speak.

356
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Speaker 5: She was very respectable.

357
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Speaker 8: She was from a very good quote unquote Quaker family,

358
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Speaker 8: Quaker home.

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Speaker 1: I asked Carol Baxter why such a seemingly wonderful woman

360
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Speaker 1: would marry John Tall. I didn't understand why that would happen.

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Speaker 1: He's been disowned, he's been sent to a penal colony,

362
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Speaker 1: he's struggling financially. She doesn't know about Sarah number one.

363
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Speaker 1: But what would possess a woman who clearly brings something

364
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Speaker 1: to the table to take this man when there are

365
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Speaker 1: probably other nice Quaker men around.

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Speaker 3: You're right, there must have been something for him to

367
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Speaker 3: appeal to that sort of a person. Again, I guess

368
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Speaker 3: he must have had that that mask, because she clearly

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Speaker 3: loved him. I mean, we've got letters and things to him,

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Speaker 3: and they were clearly devoted to each other.

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Speaker 1: So he really did have two sides.

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Speaker 3: I guess he was split, you know, very much split

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Speaker 3: in terms of who he was the Jekyl and Hyde character,

374
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Speaker 3: the doctor Jekyl is the nice side of him, and

375
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Speaker 3: that was the Doctor Jekyll's side that saw and appealed

376
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Speaker 3: to Sarah Appleby. It was the Mistress Hyde side that

377
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Speaker 3: was the Sarah Hart side.

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Speaker 1: Meg Edwards says, there might be a simpler explanation.

379
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Speaker 8: You know, she's been married before, and she has a

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Speaker 8: child that certainly aunt an interesting element of Perhaps that's

381
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Speaker 8: why she it wasn't quite so big of a leap

382
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Speaker 8: to marry a Quaker who was out of favor.

383
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Speaker 1: Sarah Appleby also had ambitions when she met John Toll

384
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Speaker 1: in eighteen thirty nine, she was teaching young girls to

385
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Speaker 1: help them become self sufficient women.

386
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Speaker 8: She was setting up a school at the time for

387
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Speaker 8: young girls for women.

388
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Speaker 1: Women's education in the early nineteenth century was not a given.

389
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Speaker 8: I think that's one of the things that attracted her

390
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Speaker 8: to John was that he had similar values of championing

391
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Speaker 8: women's education. Yeah, so she was clearly an interesting time

392
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Speaker 8: in her life setting up the school in berkhams Stead,

393
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Speaker 8: and that's when they met and they got married. He

394
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 8: was very much flip flopping in and out of the

395
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Speaker 8: Quaker church, in and out of the Quaker favor.

396
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Speaker 1: Sarah Appleby's school in Birkhamsted was a boarding school in

397
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Speaker 1: a day school. Historian Angela Buckley says Appleby was a

398
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Speaker 1: pioneer in the area of women's education.

399
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 7: Well, nobody was required to be educated until eighteen seventy,

400
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 7: you know, it wasn't statutory to eighteen seventy anyway. And

401
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 7: if usually if anybody was educated, it would be boys.

402
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,119
Speaker 7: And the kind of things that will be open for

403
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 7: girls would be things like industrial schools or places where

404
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,399
Speaker 7: girls you know, who perhaps live a precarious existence, or

405
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 7: younger married mothers, those kind of girls that not usually

406
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 7: a boarding school unless it was again for profit.

407
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 1: And John Tall seemed very supportive of his wife's venture.

408
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 8: His values were on the surface at least, very in

409
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Speaker 8: line with the Quaker values of philanthropy and giving and education,

410
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 8: particularly women's education, which is where he came into his

411
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 8: wife Sarah's life. When she was setting up the school

412
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Speaker 8: in Berkhamsted.

413
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Speaker 1: The Talls lived in a building which still stands. It

414
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: was called the Red House, it's now the Red and

415
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: White House. Hillary and Gerald and Meg took me there

416
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: during our tour of Birkhamsted. So tell me where the

417
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 1: history this is where Tall?

418
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 2: Well, yes, this is where Sarah tool had her school,

419
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 2: and I think he must have decided she would be

420
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 2: a very good prospect to marry. He ingratiated himself in

421
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 2: the town. He liked the respect he was getting walking

422
00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 2: about in the.

423
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:02,160
Speaker 4: Quaker garb have this entire house. But do you know what, Yes,

424
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Speaker 4: I think.

425
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 2: So, because it was a business.

426
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 1: I was impressed with its size. Well, this is a

427
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:11,400
Speaker 1: much bigger house than I thought it would be. I'll

428
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 1: take some pictures here in the mint. Yes, because this

429
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 1: is this is very large. I mean children that they

430
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 1: have when they lived in this house.

431
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 2: Sarah had her daughter from her previous marriage, and Lisa,

432
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 2: and then they had two of their own, and then

433
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Speaker 2: they had all the boarders and the day pupils up.

434
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Speaker 1: To twelve years old.

435
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,640
Speaker 2: They were, so it was a big concern.

436
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:35,440
Speaker 1: Was that a successful business?

437
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 2: Yes, I believe so.

438
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: It's clear from the size of the Red House that

439
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 1: Sarah Appleby must have been successful with her school because

440
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: her husband was not especially successful with his import export business.

441
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,919
Speaker 8: What is amazing is that she clearly was the more

442
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 8: successful one of the two, or she was certainly self

443
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 8: sufficient to an extent, and under the backdrop of nineteenth

444
00:26:58,119 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 8: century England.

445
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 5: Incredible successful for a woman.

446
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,399
Speaker 1: And he was bringing money to Sarah Hart and their

447
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 1: kids every six weeks, which continued to be a financial

448
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: strain once Tall married Sarah appleby Sarah Hort and their

449
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: children became a bit more worrisome. But John Tall kept

450
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: more than a few secrets from his wife.

451
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,479
Speaker 3: So she didn't realize they were the financial problems. And

452
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 3: the financial problems really only started around this time there

453
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 3: was an economic depression in Australia. Well, most of his

454
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 3: finances were tied up with land over there and import exporting, and.

455
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 4: Of course if you've got a drought, which is typical of.

456
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 3: Our problems, there are issues then with the sheep and

457
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,400
Speaker 3: cattle and making money off them because because they die

458
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 3: because they haven't got any fodder. For what years he

459
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 3: started as the early forties continue probably about forty two

460
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 3: forty three. That was when he really started to have

461
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 3: financial problems. And he married the second wife in eighteen

462
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 3: forty one.

463
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 1: John Toll was sneaky, subtly sneaky. Even with his new wife.

464
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 4: She didn't know he was struggling financially.

465
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 3: She made a very good prenup agreement that benefited her

466
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 3: and her daughter.

467
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 1: They had prenup agreements.

468
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 3: Not described in that way. I mean, essentially we're looking

469
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 3: at the old Dowies sort of situation.

470
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 4: He agreed in writing.

471
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 3: To support them blah blah blah, but in fact he

472
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 3: never actually acted on it.

473
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 4: He was going to protect his money.

474
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 1: Tall was having problems with his business. He owed money

475
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: in England, His new wife, Sarah Appleby, was supporting them financially,

476
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 1: and his mistress and their two children were becoming more

477
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,719
Speaker 1: expensive living in the city. Tall soon decided that Sarah,

478
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 1: Hart Alfred and Little Sarah needed to move to the

479
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: countryside and away from London where he might be spotted

480
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: by business associates. With his marriage to Sarah Appleby, John

481
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: Tall had a lot to lose. They had children together too,

482
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: and now the financial pressure pressed on him.

483
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 3: He eventually decided that there were some risks of having

484
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 3: them in London, and that's when he sent her out

485
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 3: to Slough initially and then out to Salt Hill, which

486
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 3: is not far from Slough and Slough, for those who

487
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 3: don't know, is not far from Windsor Castle.

488
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: Tall rented Sarah and the children a cottage in the

489
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 1: village of Slough in the district of Salt Hill, just

490
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: like in London. He would occasionally come to visit, even

491
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: after he married Sarah Appleby. I asked Carol Baxter how

492
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: he got away with this for years? Were neighbors not suspicious?

493
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 3: People didn't know that he was the father because Sarah's

494
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 3: story was that he was her old master and she

495
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 3: had married his son, and his son had gone abroad.

496
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 3: So the son used to send money back to his father,

497
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 3: the Quaker John Tall, who would then bring it out

498
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 3: to her every six weeks or so to help her

499
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 3: support herself and the children. And of course the man

500
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 3: turned up every time dressed in his Quaker gear.

501
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 4: And he was an older man.

502
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 3: I mean, he was about thirty years older than Sarah,

503
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 3: So there wasn't any Perhaps people had their suspicions, but

504
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 3: I never even got that idea that they really had

505
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 3: the suspicions that he might have been the father of

506
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 3: the children.

507
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: But there was clearly strain. Sarah Hart and John Tall

508
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: argued she knew he had married someone else, He wasn't

509
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: affectionate to the children. In fact, they had no idea

510
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: who he really was.

511
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 8: From the accounts of what Little Alfred said or was

512
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 8: over heard saying about John Tool, doesn't sound like they

513
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 8: were familiar with him at all, doesn't sound like they

514
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 8: saw him as a father figure or someone.

515
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 5: He was just someone who dropped in, gave money, and left.

516
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: So this was not his second family. He was not

517
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: a kind father.

518
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 8: Little Alfred says is overheard saying something along the lines

519
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 8: of you're a very bad man. You're a very naughty man.

520
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 8: So I don't think he saw it as you know,

521
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 8: his family on the side. I think he saw it

522
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 8: as his mistress and perhaps his two mistakes.

523
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 1: And John Tall always wore the Quaker garb on those

524
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 1: visits everywhere. Really, that point is important for later I

525
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: asked historian Estrazala about the clothing, what exactly made Quaker

526
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: clothes unique?

527
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 6: So in the time of Tall, so the Quaker garb

528
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 6: is not it's not as specific uniform, it's not as

529
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 6: distinct as like maybe Orthodox or for Orthodox Jews were

530
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 6: dressed today. But it would be a dark colors, nothing flashy.

531
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 6: Again like his definition saying no ribbons nor whatever, like

532
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 6: it doesn't really mean very much to us.

533
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 1: No adornments, no.

534
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 6: Adornments, Yeah right, so just simple, dark, modest.

535
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 1: In the early eighteen forties, John Tall dressed the part

536
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: of the pious Quaker, which included the clothing. Gerald Fox

537
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 1: says that for a while, Tall seemed to be heading

538
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: in a positive direction.

539
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 2: He was on the straight and narrow path.

540
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 4: He didn't need to do criminal things.

541
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 5: He didn't need to do fraud or anything.

542
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 4: It established himself.

543
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: Gerald's granddaughter, Meg Edwards, is a little less generous.

544
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 8: I think I have a bit of a different opinion

545
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 8: to my grandpa about the kind of person that he was.

546
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 5: It's obviously very hard to get.

547
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 8: An accurate depiction of someone in the nineteenth century, but

548
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 8: I think he was clearly very driven.

549
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 5: I think he was very intelligent. I think he was

550
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 5: an opportunist.

551
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 8: I don't think he was necessarily as scheming as a

552
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 8: lot of people would suggest, but I think he definitely

553
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 8: was seeing things that he wanted to better himself in life.

554
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 5: Higher positions, more money.

555
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 1: Men keeping mistresses is obviously nothing new. Historian Angela Buckley

556
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: says it was almost the norm in Victorian England.

557
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 7: It was very common, particularly for hy and men with

558
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 7: high positions in society, to have a mistress's and to

559
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 7: keep them out of the way. So he's behaving fairly typically,

560
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 7: I would say, from a middle class Victorian gentleman. I

561
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 7: guess that's how he's styling himself.

562
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 5: Isn't he.

563
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,239
Speaker 7: They kept her Sarah out the way by moving her

564
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 7: to Slough because it's quite a distance, but.

565
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: John Tall continued to visit Sarah Hart. They continued to

566
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 1: have their affair. He controlled everything, including her name. Carol

567
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: Baxter says that Sarah Hart wasn't her real name. So

568
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: back to this is Sarah Lawrence, right, do you say

569
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 1: Lawrence or Heart or do you go back and forth.

570
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 3: Or look, I just call it Sarah Hart. Her initial

571
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 3: name was Lawrence, and then her mother married a handler,

572
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 3: so she became a headler and the Heart name was

573
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 3: a name attached by John Tall to hide her true identity.

574
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:21,720
Speaker 1: John Tall clearly cared mostly about himself, and it seems

575
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 1: that Sarah Hart wanted more from him. But it wasn't

576
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 1: his love she was demanding. It was his money. And

577
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 1: John Tall was very angry.

578
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 8: I think he saw Sarah as increasingly inconvenient to him.

579
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 1: It's not just the anger that's concerning Meg. Edwards says

580
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,839
Speaker 1: Tall might have felt like he was above the law

581
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 1: for much of his life.

582
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 5: He was probably quite arrogant, thought he was above the law.

583
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 8: Those fourteen years in Australia or those that he was

584
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 8: sentenced to anyway, didn't do much to dissuade him from

585
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,280
Speaker 8: committing further crimes.

586
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: And that put the people closest to him in a

587
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: lot of danger. On the next episode of tenfold more

588
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: Wicked on exactly right.

589
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:21,320
Speaker 3: Suddenly Sarah had gone from being a pawn to being

590
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:22,760
Speaker 3: almost a queen.

591
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 4: She had started to have a voice, and she made.

592
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:32,240
Speaker 3: That voice clear in her decision to ask him for money,

593
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:37,439
Speaker 3: and that was when she became a threat. So that

594
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 3: was when everything started to unravel.

595
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 8: Basically, he gets onto a train from Puttington Station and

596
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 8: goes to Salt Hill.

597
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 3: Gets off the train and he walks to Sarah's place.

598
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 3: At Salt Hill, people see him. It's January, so yes,

599
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 3: it's dark, but there are lights around the railway station.

600
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 4: He is distinctive. He's seen. He heads to Sarah's place.

601
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 1: If you love a good real ghost story, my audio

602
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Speaker 1: book The Ghost Club is available wherever you get your

603
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Speaker 1: audio books. I can't wait to tell you the real

604
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Speaker 1: story about the world's most famous ghost hunter, who was

605
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Speaker 1: the head of the world's most famous ghost club and

606
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Speaker 1: how he investigated England's most famous haunted house. Please also

607
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Speaker 1: check out my book All That Is Wicked, which is

608
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Speaker 1: a deep dive into the criminal mind. This has been

609
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: an exactly right Tenfold War Media production producers Jason Whaling,

610
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 1: Alexis Emirosi and Natalie Wrinn. Editors Jason Whaling and Kate

611
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:56,280
Speaker 1: Winkler Dawson, researcher Kate Winkler Dawson, sound designer Eric Friend,

612
00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 1: composer Curtis Heath, artwork by Nick Toga. Executive producers Georgia Hartstark,

613
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 1: Karen Kilgarriff and Daniel Kramer. Follow us on Instagram and

614
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: Facebook at tenfold war Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold War.

615
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:13,919
Speaker 1: And If you know of a historical crime that could

616
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 1: use some attention, especially if it happened in your family,

617
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