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Speaker 1: Pushkin Hi Happiness Lab listeners. This week, we're wrapping up

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Speaker 1: our mini season on the science of relationships with the

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Speaker 1: second of two in case you missed it, throwback episodes

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Speaker 1: some of my favorites in the history of the Happiness Lab. Today,

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Speaker 1: you'll get to hear the second half of my two

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Speaker 1: part conversation with husband and wife research team John and

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Speaker 1: Julie Gotman, a couple who spent over fifty years studying

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Speaker 1: the science of love. In this episode, the Gotman's share

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Speaker 1: what science shows about how couples can argue better and

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Speaker 1: why the way you fight matters more than what you

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Speaker 1: fight about. If you're in a relationship wherever hope to be,

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Speaker 1: these insights are not to be missed, so stay with

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Speaker 1: us to hear their amazing advice right after these short ads.

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Speaker 1: When we tape interviews for this show, a lot of

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Speaker 1: small things can go wrong. Planes fly overhead, trains rumble by,

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Speaker 1: recording devices break, but more often than not, the problem

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Speaker 1: is usually somebody's phone going off.

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Speaker 2: I turned the phone off, but they didn't turn it off.

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Speaker 2: I did.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this isn't the kind of exchange you might have

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Speaker 1: expected from relationship experts. John and Julie Schwartz Gottman. You

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Speaker 1: might have thought that Julie would just brush over John's

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Speaker 1: mistake with some loving, yet sacarine comment. Oh, honey, I

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Speaker 1: simply adore your forgetfulness. It fills our lives with so

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Speaker 1: many surprises. But the Gutmans are realists. They don't like

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Speaker 1: shying away from the disagreements, disputes and downry arguments that

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Speaker 1: happen in every partnership, and in their decades together as

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Speaker 1: a married couple, they've had their fair share of conflicts.

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Speaker 1: Some of them were pretty fundamental.

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Speaker 2: This was like thirty years ago, as it's such a

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Speaker 2: big fight there that we actually went to couple therapy.

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Speaker 1: That must be so intimidating for the poor couple of

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Speaker 1: therapists when the Gotman's walk in. Throughout their careers and

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Speaker 1: now at the institute that bears their name, the Gotments

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Speaker 1: have studied countless couples, paying particular attention to the different

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Speaker 1: ways they bring up complaints and solve conflicts, and the

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Speaker 1: central lesson they've observed is that the key to a

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Speaker 1: long and healthy relationship lies in confronting disagreement rather than

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Speaker 1: burying it.

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Speaker 2: But as they.

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Speaker 1: Explain in their new book fight right, how successful couples

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Speaker 1: turn conflict into connection. There are ways we can argue

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Speaker 1: a bit smarter, and the gotments think we need to

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Speaker 1: heed this advice now more than ever.

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Speaker 3: When COVID started, actually we did a number of interviews

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Speaker 3: and podcasts to give tools and advice for couples who

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Speaker 3: were struggling so hard, you know, especially under quarantine.

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Speaker 2: It was so.

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Speaker 3: Painful because most people are used to separation during the

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Speaker 3: day with work and kid care and variety of things,

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Speaker 3: and then coming together. Now they were together twenty four

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Speaker 3: to seven. Oftentimes they didn't have space to themselves, you know,

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Speaker 3: nothing of solitude for themselves if they needed that, And

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Speaker 3: that has carried over people. At least the people who

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Speaker 3: had distress marriages became more and more unhappy. They became

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Speaker 3: more domestically violent, more hostile towards one another, and there

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Speaker 3: was emotional damage occurring that still festers inside a lot

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Speaker 3: of couples today, even though COVID is much more under control.

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Speaker 3: So I think we're in a sorry state right now.

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Speaker 3: The other thing, too, is that kids, especially teens, have

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Speaker 3: suffered tremendously from COVID. That puts more pressure on the

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Speaker 3: parents because now they're dealing with kids who are seriously depressed,

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Speaker 3: who may even be suicidal, who don't want to go

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Speaker 3: to school, who don't want to connect socially because they've

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Speaker 3: almost forgotten how except through technology, And kids are a

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Speaker 3: loss for whom we got going back to what was normal,

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Speaker 3: what is normal, and parents are coping with that too.

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Speaker 3: That puts more strain on parents too. So we think

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Speaker 3: that fighting isn't broken here in this country. You know,

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Speaker 3: there's so much polarization, political polarization, and you know, polarization

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Speaker 3: around even to get vaccinated against them a pathogen. In

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Speaker 3: good relationships, people fight in ways that are destructive, that

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Speaker 3: create antagonism, I mean in bad relationships.

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Speaker 2: In bad relationships, thank you. There's a need to really

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Speaker 2: re examine the way we do with conflict and what

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Speaker 2: this is about fight, right, is turning conflict into connection

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Speaker 2: and what are the tools for doing that? Yeah, And the.

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Speaker 1: Great thing about your work is that you've been able

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Speaker 1: to look predictively at the way people fight to try

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Speaker 1: to figure out how that's going to play out and

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Speaker 1: the rest of their relationship. And in the course of

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Speaker 1: doing that, you've identified what you like to call the

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Speaker 1: four horsemen of the four horsemen of the relationship apocalypse,

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Speaker 1: I think, is what we're going for. And so you know,

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Speaker 1: walk me through what these are and why they can

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Speaker 1: be so problematic.

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Speaker 3: All right, So number one is criticism. That you know,

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Speaker 3: the thing we do the most is one of the

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Speaker 3: most distructive. So criticism means blaming a problem between you

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Speaker 3: and your partner on a personality flaw of your partner.

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Speaker 3: So it will sound like you're so lazy, you're so

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Speaker 3: thought Look, you're so inconsiderate. All those put downs are criticisms.

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Speaker 3: That's one. The second one we call contempt, and contempt

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Speaker 3: is really awful. It's like sulphuric acid for the relationship.

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Speaker 3: It destroys it and not only does it predict the

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Speaker 3: relationship demise, it also predicts how many infectious illnesses the

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Speaker 3: listener of contempt will have in the coming years. That's incredible.

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Speaker 3: So caring contempt destroys the immune system of the listener.

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Speaker 3: So do we want to do that to the person

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Speaker 3: we love? I don't think so.

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Speaker 2: So how does consent different? And I was.

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Speaker 3: About to say that, thank you. Contempt is looking down

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Speaker 3: your nose at your partner from a position of superiority.

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Speaker 3: So there's often a smear or some scorn or you know, sarcasm,

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Speaker 3: mockery at times, and of course name calling calling your

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Speaker 3: partner a bad name, which we don't have to repeat here.

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Speaker 3: All of that is contempt. Now, the response to criticism

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Speaker 3: and contempt is defensiveness. Those two first ones make us

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Speaker 3: feel attacked. What do we do when we feel attacked, Well,

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Speaker 3: we're going to fight back or we're going to play

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Speaker 3: innocent victim. So in defensiveness, you either will counterattack or

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Speaker 3: rewine and say I did to pay the bills on time.

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Speaker 3: Likes the whiners, Yeah, our friends the whiners. And so

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Speaker 3: that's number three and number four we call stonewalling. Stonewalling

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Speaker 3: literally is what it sounds like. The listener who's supposed

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Speaker 3: to be engaged with the speaker shuts themselves down, acts

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Speaker 3: like a stonewall. May not make icontact, doesn't show any response,

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Speaker 3: any movement, any words that indicates they're actually listening and participating.

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Speaker 3: They turned into a stone wall. We discovered that people

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Speaker 3: who stonewalled, and eighty five percent of those were men inside,

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Speaker 3: were actually in fight or flight, which is really interesting.

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Speaker 3: Their heart rates would be sitting there over one hundred

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Speaker 3: beats a minute, sometimes way higher, or for an athlete

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Speaker 3: over about eighty eighty five beats a minute, and they

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Speaker 3: were in fight or flight or freeze, which is a

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Speaker 3: horribly uncomfortable feeling inside. Thus the person was actually going

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Speaker 3: inside themselves, trying to shut out stimuli coming from outside,

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Speaker 3: including the partner's voice, in order to soothe themselves because

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Speaker 3: they were feeling so awful the stone waller. So those

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Speaker 3: are the four criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling.

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Speaker 1: And so it seems like one of the reasons we

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Speaker 1: wind up kind of entering this path of the four

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Speaker 1: horsemen of bad relationships is that we kind of don't

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Speaker 1: realize what we're fighting about. We need to kind of

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Speaker 1: figure out what the deeper, hidden agenda is in some

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Speaker 1: of these fights. But at a very kind of basic level,

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Speaker 1: what are most fights about.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of surprising, right, they're about absolutely nothing. They're

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Speaker 2: watching TV and he's got the remote and he's cattle

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Speaker 2: surfing and she says, leave it on that show that's interesting,

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Speaker 2: and he says, well, well, let me see what else

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Speaker 2: is on. She says, no, leave it. He says, well,

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Speaker 2: let me see what else is on and she says, no,

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Speaker 2: leave it. He says, fine, have it your way. She said,

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Speaker 2: why'd you say fine that way? You know, I don't

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Speaker 2: even want to watch television with you now? Oh you don't? Okay, fine,

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Speaker 2: And then they saw relating. So what are they fighting about.

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Speaker 2: They're really not fighting about money, sex, in laws, parenting,

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Speaker 2: you know, they're fighting about the lack of connection, you know,

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Speaker 2: that inability to see one another this viewpoint, and that

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Speaker 2: really gets in the way of a deeper understanding of

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Speaker 2: what's going on in the moment.

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Speaker 1: And so sometimes finding this deeper understanding really requires going

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Speaker 1: to that hidden agenda. You're talking about what you mean

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Speaker 1: by a hidden agenda and why it can lead to

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Speaker 1: so much kind of conflict and relationships.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So by hidden agenda, what we mean is again

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Speaker 3: that internal world inside somebody where resuldes their values, their

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Speaker 3: core needs, their ideal dreams, their history, which may include

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Speaker 3: some old scar tissue from past parenting relationships, being abused,

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Speaker 3: all kinds of things, and that remains underground. They're not

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Speaker 3: talking about that. They're talking about something on the surface.

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Speaker 3: So let me give you a good example. Let's say that, Well,

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Speaker 3: I can just take our situation with the books. John

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Speaker 3: is an avid book collector. We're getting books all the time.

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Speaker 3: Where are you going to put them? There's piles of

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Speaker 3: stuff all over the place. Okay, So John has a

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Speaker 3: personality type. He can focus his attention completely on whatever

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Speaker 3: he's choosing to attend too, and everything else is blocked out.

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Speaker 2: You know. It's a phenomenal skill.

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Speaker 3: That he developed growing up in a very crowded tenement

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Speaker 3: apartment in New York. I. On the other hand, the

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Speaker 3: whole environment totally affects me. The colors of the walls,

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Speaker 3: the sounds, the noise, the tidiness, everything affects me, and

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Speaker 3: I can't think straight. Things are disorganized, right, So that's

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Speaker 3: a fundamental difference between John and I. So my ideal

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Speaker 3: dream here, I actually have a little postcard that shows

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Speaker 3: a woman sleeping and just waking up.

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Speaker 2: I dreamed of the tidy house, you know.

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Speaker 3: I mean it's it's like, yes, exactly, And to John

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Speaker 3: that's completely arbitrary, unimportant, right, Okay, But if we don't

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Speaker 3: bring up those differences between us, his dream is to

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Speaker 3: not be n need it because he just wants to

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Speaker 3: do what he wants to do, you know, which, of course, most.

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Speaker 2: Of us do.

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Speaker 3: We want to have a little bit of control over

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Speaker 3: our time.

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Speaker 1: And so sometimes those hidden agendas seem to be about

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Speaker 1: these personality differences. But I know you've talked about cases

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Speaker 1: where you really had these hidden dreams, right, these these

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Speaker 1: deeper values that you had for your life and what

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Speaker 1: you want your choices to be, and that that can

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Speaker 1: lead to conflict too.

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Speaker 2: So really wanted to buy a small cabin on Orches Island,

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Speaker 2: and we have been renting places and even rented a

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Speaker 2: lovely place on the ocean, you know, And I didn't

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Speaker 2: think it was I didn't think it was a good

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Speaker 2: idea to buy buy it another place. I thought it

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Speaker 2: was a waste of money and we could rent and

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Speaker 2: why did we have to do this? And so I

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Speaker 2: was adamant about not doing it. She was adamant about

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Speaker 2: doing it. So we went to therapy, and the therapist

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Speaker 2: one day said, John, relationships are about creating boundaries and

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Speaker 2: you can say no to her and she has to

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Speaker 2: live with it. And when we left, you know, I said,

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Speaker 2: do I sound like that? And she said, yeah, you do,

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Speaker 2: and I said, well, I don't want that kind of

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Speaker 2: a relationship. I think we have to talk more about

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Speaker 2: this cabin thing, and so we really developed a way

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Speaker 2: of going deeper into why was it so important to

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Speaker 2: her to have her own place there rather than renting?

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Speaker 2: What was the big well?

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Speaker 3: And also, needless to say, we fired the therapist immediately.

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Speaker 2: But what we did.

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Speaker 3: We came home and we sat down. I'll never forget

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Speaker 3: this evening, and we started asking each other these huge

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Speaker 3: questions that later became our intervention called the Dream within Conflict,

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Speaker 3: and we asked questions like, Honey, is there some value

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Speaker 3: or ethics or guidelines that are part of your position

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Speaker 3: on this issue? We would ask, do you have some

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Speaker 3: childhood history that somehow is relating to this? Why is

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Speaker 3: this so important to you? Do you have some ideal

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Speaker 3: dream here that was a biggie? Do you have some

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Speaker 3: ideal dream that's part of your position on this issue?

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Speaker 3: And oh my god, this whole world opened up.

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Speaker 2: With these six questions. You know, I was able to

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Speaker 2: really look deeply at Hyo was so opposed to owning property,

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Speaker 2: And it really had to do with my parents having

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Speaker 2: survived the Holocaust in World War Two and my father's

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Speaker 2: messages to me, don't trust in anything but what you

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Speaker 2: can put in your mind, because you may have to

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Speaker 2: flee one day. Jules have always had to flee, you know.

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Speaker 2: That was my objection, Julie's you can tell yourself.

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Speaker 3: And mine mine was that I'd grown up in a

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Speaker 3: very unhappy household, very distressed, and so I lived a

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Speaker 3: couple of blocks away from a huge forest. At night,

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Speaker 3: beginning when I was eight or nine years old, I

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Speaker 3: would sneak out of the house after everybody went to bed,

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Speaker 3: I'd go sleep in the forest overnight, no matter what

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Speaker 3: the weather was. Then I would sneak back in before

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Speaker 3: people got up, and nobody knew I was doing that

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Speaker 3: for years, years and years and years. I have my

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Speaker 3: favorite tree I would sleep in, So I think I'm

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Speaker 3: part monkey or something. I'm not sure, but anyway, what

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Speaker 3: getting a place on Orcus meant to me was having

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Speaker 3: roots in the wilderness, which is exactly what that forest

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Speaker 3: had been to me as a child. So you can

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Speaker 3: see both of our backgrounds, our childhood histories, and values

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Speaker 3: that those histories taught us, which were very powerful, were

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Speaker 3: really significant in this difference between us, right.

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Speaker 2: And once we understood that, we were able to arrive

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Speaker 2: at a compromise that really worked for both of us,

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Speaker 2: which was.

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Speaker 3: We agreed we would buy a little cabin and live

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Speaker 3: in it for two years and see how it felt

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Speaker 3: to be there, whether or not we really like this,

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Speaker 3: in trade for keeping our house a kosher house, which

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Speaker 3: was a great, big deal, a lot you know, different

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Speaker 3: dishes from elk and meet and you know, all kinds

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Speaker 3: of stuff. We did that in exchange, and John discovered

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Speaker 3: he loved having a klan.

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Speaker 2: Non organ see my knowledge. Really loved it. Yeah, we're

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Speaker 2: so quiet, so peaceful, you know, we really loved it.

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Speaker 1: And so it just shows the power when you can

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Speaker 1: actually get to these compromises, when you can sort of

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Speaker 1: look at these hidden agendas and figure out a compromise

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Speaker 1: that maximizes both both parties can be happy. I think

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Speaker 1: often we think of compromise, we think, well, somebody's going

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Speaker 1: to have to sacrifice something. But sometimes if you understand

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Speaker 1: what you're really fighting about, it seems like you can

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Speaker 1: get to, like, you know, a compromise that really works

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Speaker 1: for everybody.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. The amazing thing is that the worst issues in

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Speaker 2: a relationship can be the greatest sources of connection and understanding.

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Speaker 3: Right, let me let me give you another example of

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Speaker 3: this notion of compromise. We found that the successful couples

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Speaker 3: took an initial step when they were working on compromise

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Speaker 3: that was really important, and that was to take their

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Speaker 3: own position on an issue and divide it into two parts,

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Speaker 3: an inflexible part, the part where nothing could be given

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Speaker 3: up in that little circle, a core need, an ideal

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Speaker 3: dream of particular value. They could not compromise on those

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Speaker 3: pieces of their position, but there were also flexible things

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Speaker 3: that they could compromise on that might have to do

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Speaker 3: with who, what, where, when, how much, how long? You know,

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Speaker 3: those fundamental nitty gritty details. So we had a couple

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Speaker 3: in a workshop, for example, where the woman and the

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Speaker 3: man were getting ready for retiring, and they both wanted

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Speaker 3: to sell their house. But then his ideal dream was

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Speaker 3: to buy a sailboat sail around the world forever and

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Speaker 3: ever into the sunset. Her ideal dream was this. Her

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Speaker 3: family had owned a farm for over one hundred years

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Speaker 3: called a century farm. She wanted to go live on

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Speaker 3: the farm and take her place in the legacy of

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Speaker 3: ancestors who had also done so. Where was it in Iowa?

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Speaker 3: So how do you sail around the world from Iowa?

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Speaker 3: You cannot do this, So when they looked at their positions.

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Speaker 3: In his center circle, that was inflexible he put sailing,

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Speaker 3: hers was live on the farm. But around that the

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Speaker 3: flexible things were whose dream would go first, how long

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Speaker 3: would it last, how much would we spend, where would

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Speaker 3: we go, When would it begin, when would it end?

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Speaker 2: Etc.

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Speaker 3: And they arrived through doing that at this gorgeous compromise.

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Speaker 3: They would first buy a sailboat, sail as far as

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Speaker 3: they could for a year, then put the boat up

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Speaker 3: on dry dock, and go for living on the farm

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Speaker 3: for one year, same amount of time. That felt fair

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Speaker 3: and just, And after two years then they would compare

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Speaker 3: their experiences in order to create the next dream together.

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Speaker 3: It was perfect, even though they were coming from totally

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Speaker 3: opposite dreams.

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Speaker 1: Finding a compromise between Iowa and the open ocean seems

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Speaker 1: pretty impressive. But what about the smaller relationship conflicts that

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Speaker 1: come up even more often in our everyday lives. After

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Speaker 1: the break, we'll look at best practices for starting these

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Speaker 1: lower grade arguments off right and what we can do

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Speaker 1: if they wind up going wrong.

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Speaker 3: Why do you always leave all the laundry on the floor.

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Speaker 2: No, honey, I'm starting to feel defensive here.

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Speaker 3: I'm just sick and tired of this stupid, stupid laundry.

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Speaker 1: The happiness lab will be right back. Relationship fights have

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Speaker 1: a way of exploding when we least want them to.

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Speaker 1: Maybe we've been building up small resentments over months or years.

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Speaker 1: When something finally sets us off. We're feeling angry, we're hurting,

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Speaker 1: and we open our mouths with a little plan for

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Speaker 1: what we're going to say. Relationship expert doctor Julie Schwart

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Speaker 1: Scottman has found that these ad libbed openings aren't the

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Speaker 1: best way to start an argument.

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Speaker 3: The first three minutes of a fight is incredibly important.

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Speaker 3: The first three minutes of a conflict conversation not only

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Speaker 3: predicts how the rest of the conversation will go, it

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Speaker 3: also predicts how well the relationship that's going to go

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Speaker 3: six years down the road, with over ninety percent accuracy.

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Speaker 3: So how we bring up our complaint is absolutely crucial.

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Speaker 3: Say what you feel. You're describing your self. I feel stressed,

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Speaker 3: I feel disappointed. Then step two about what now? Notice

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Speaker 3: that's not about who, about your partner and how rotten

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Speaker 3: they are.

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Speaker 1: But you also have some bess practices once the fight starts,

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Speaker 1: in order to how to do it right. And one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite ones, because I think this is a

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Speaker 1: tendency that I need to work on with my own husband,

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Speaker 1: is to make sure I'm not kitchen sinking in the

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Speaker 1: middle of the fight. What is kitchen sinking and why

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Speaker 1: is it so bad for a fight.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that we find that people do

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Speaker 2: that gets in the way of mutual understanding is that

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Speaker 2: they don't feel entitled to their complaints, so they kind

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Speaker 2: of stockpile their grievances. They try to live with it

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Speaker 2: and say, ah, it's no big deal, I don't have

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Speaker 2: to bring that up. But then there's another one. They

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Speaker 2: do that again and again until resentment builds to such

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Speaker 2: an extent that all of the complaints spill out at once.

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Speaker 2: And that's what we call kitchen sinking. Everything but the

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Speaker 2: kitchen sink is in there, you know, and they just

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Speaker 2: let it all out at once. And it's really overwhelming

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Speaker 2: when you do that, when you say, hey, Fred, I've

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Speaker 2: got this list of fifteen things that you're doing wrong,

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Speaker 2: and here they are, and you know, you come up

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Speaker 2: with fifteen and to Fred it feels like an avalanche.

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Speaker 2: You know, he cannot listen. He just immediately goes into

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Speaker 2: the flooded state fight or flight, and that's what Kinchin's

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Speaker 2: thinking is about. So you really need to bring up

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Speaker 2: your complaints when they matter to you, one at a time,

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Speaker 2: one at a time.

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Speaker 1: And so starting with one particular positive need. But that's

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Speaker 1: the point where I think a partner needs to respond

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Speaker 1: after you've done that well. And so talk about what

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Speaker 1: the right kind of response is from a partner after

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Speaker 1: you've expressed those needs, how they can sort of show

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Speaker 1: that you've been heard.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 3: The right response from a listener might be some empathy

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Speaker 3: and some validation, maybe even beginning with summarizing what you

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Speaker 3: hear the partner say, sound like why don't you express

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Speaker 3: a need?

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Speaker 2: And then I'll show it. I really need you to

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Speaker 2: be with me in the morning and not sleep in,

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Speaker 2: you know, because I feel really lonely in the morning.

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Speaker 2: You're just inconsiderate, you don't think about my needs. Okay,

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Speaker 2: now do it right, Okay, Okay, So I'm really upset

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Speaker 2: that a lot of mornings you're sleeping in and I

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Speaker 2: feel really alone. I wish you would make an effort

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Speaker 2: to be with me at breakfast. It's an important meal

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Speaker 2: and i'd like to be with you and have your company. Wow.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So you're saying that you missed me in the

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Speaker 3: morning when you're having breakfast alone. Yeah, I'm sleep Oh okay,

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Speaker 3: Well I can understand feeling lonely. You know, when you

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Speaker 3: first wake up and you're downstairs and you're wanting some company.

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Speaker 3: You have connection first thing in the morning. That really

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Speaker 3: makes sense to me.

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Speaker 2: I get that. Great.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So that should proceed your response. And what that

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Speaker 3: was was empathy first, empathy with their summary, then empathy

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Speaker 3: with his feelings, and then validating is right to have

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Speaker 3: those feelings. If I were him stepping into his shoes, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I could see where he would feel lonely and want

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Speaker 3: some company. That totally makes sense to me. However, I

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Speaker 3: can still disagree with his point of view. I can

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Speaker 3: respond by saying something like, if I want to say, no, honey,

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Speaker 3: you know, I really understand what you're needing and why

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Speaker 3: you're meaning. But I'm usually up till about two thirty

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Speaker 3: in the morning, Yeah, feeding the baby and getting very

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Speaker 3: terrible sleep, So getting up at six o'clock in the

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Speaker 3: morning is really hard for me.

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Speaker 2: I get it.

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Speaker 3: So would it be possible, maybe we could compromise somehow.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I know.

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Speaker 3: You have to get up early some mornings, but maybe

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Speaker 3: on the weekends we could both sleep in together.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're more of a night out, you're saying in

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Speaker 2: Europe later getting up at six, so you only get

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Speaker 2: four or five hours of sleep, right, and that doesn't

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Speaker 2: work for you? Right? So yeah, we can sleep in

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Speaker 2: the weekends, is yourst thing. It's a possibility. Yeah, how

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Speaker 2: would you feel about that? Kind of makes sense.

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Speaker 3: So that's kind of what it looks like.

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Speaker 1: That's beautiful. I mean I heard you each hearing one another,

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Speaker 1: or heard you quickly going to compromising, and I heard

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Speaker 1: something else that you talk about, which is this lovely

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Speaker 1: idea that you call yielding to win, which comes up

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Speaker 1: during compromise. So explain yielding to win and maybe how

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Speaker 1: it played out in that scenario.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very interesting. I mean we really just discovered

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Speaker 2: this when we studied domestic violence, and these guys who

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Speaker 2: were domestically violent just refuse to accept any influence at all.

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Speaker 2: I mean they acted like they were baseball players. Just

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Speaker 2: whatever their wives asked for, they would bat it back

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Speaker 2: and say no. And when you always say no, when

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Speaker 2: you refuse influence, you become powerless because nobody wants to

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Speaker 2: talk to you when you're like that. There's no give

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Speaker 2: and take, So why would anybody have a conversation with

434
00:27:39,116 --> 00:27:43,516
Speaker 2: you about what they needed? So that accepting influence is

435
00:27:43,556 --> 00:27:47,676
Speaker 2: the only way to be influential in a relationship, and

436
00:27:47,716 --> 00:27:51,956
Speaker 2: that's kind of a surprising finding. It loll counterintuitive that

437
00:27:52,476 --> 00:27:56,076
Speaker 2: by accept influence from Julie, she's more likely to accept

438
00:27:56,076 --> 00:28:00,116
Speaker 2: influence from me. If I refuse to accept influence, she's

439
00:28:00,236 --> 00:28:02,596
Speaker 2: even unlikely to talk to me about an issue.

440
00:28:03,596 --> 00:28:07,596
Speaker 3: Yeah, think about it this way. If John makes a

441
00:28:07,636 --> 00:28:15,076
Speaker 3: request and I accept influence from him, then you know, basically,

442
00:28:15,116 --> 00:28:18,236
Speaker 3: when he makes a request, he's opening up his arms

443
00:28:18,396 --> 00:28:22,396
Speaker 3: and he's saying, please be there for me, And if

444
00:28:22,436 --> 00:28:27,156
Speaker 3: I am, I'm saying back to him, I value you,

445
00:28:27,596 --> 00:28:29,836
Speaker 3: I love you, I want to be there for you.

446
00:28:30,276 --> 00:28:32,116
Speaker 3: I'm going to do the best I can to be

447
00:28:32,236 --> 00:28:36,396
Speaker 3: there for you. He, in turn, hopefully is going to

448
00:28:36,436 --> 00:28:41,916
Speaker 3: feel grateful about that and appreciative, which draws him closer

449
00:28:42,076 --> 00:28:45,316
Speaker 3: to me. And if he feels closer to me and

450
00:28:45,516 --> 00:28:49,356
Speaker 3: safer with me to express his own needs, he's also

451
00:28:49,436 --> 00:28:53,836
Speaker 3: more likely to listen to mine. Right, And that's part

452
00:28:53,876 --> 00:28:58,996
Speaker 3: of that beautiful reciprocity, going back and forth, being there

453
00:28:59,036 --> 00:29:03,476
Speaker 3: for one another. That builds trust and eventually leads to commitment.

454
00:29:03,956 --> 00:29:07,636
Speaker 2: And that's why power sharing power in a relationship is

455
00:29:07,676 --> 00:29:10,036
Speaker 2: really the only thing that works. You know, when you

456
00:29:10,156 --> 00:29:14,476
Speaker 2: have this dominance hierarchy, one person's in control and the

457
00:29:14,516 --> 00:29:19,116
Speaker 2: other person's subordinate, it just doesn't work. It doesn't feel good.

458
00:29:19,556 --> 00:29:23,836
Speaker 2: Eventually people will withdraw from that kind of interaction and

459
00:29:23,876 --> 00:29:25,436
Speaker 2: then everybody gets lonely.

460
00:29:25,996 --> 00:29:27,996
Speaker 1: And this is kind of gets the beauty of kind

461
00:29:28,036 --> 00:29:31,076
Speaker 1: of what we can use conflict for overall, which is

462
00:29:31,076 --> 00:29:32,876
Speaker 1: that you know, again, we tend to think of fighting

463
00:29:32,876 --> 00:29:35,636
Speaker 1: in a relationship as this bad thing, but ultimately, if

464
00:29:35,636 --> 00:29:37,916
Speaker 1: you point it out, it's like a really important moment

465
00:29:37,956 --> 00:29:40,396
Speaker 1: where you can kind of get closer together. It can

466
00:29:40,476 --> 00:29:42,476
Speaker 1: kind of lead to something better after the fact.

467
00:29:42,836 --> 00:29:45,476
Speaker 3: May I tell you a story or so, when our

468
00:29:45,556 --> 00:29:48,716
Speaker 3: daughter was about three or four years old, you know,

469
00:29:48,756 --> 00:29:51,756
Speaker 3: we'd be having dinner and she would be listening to

470
00:29:51,836 --> 00:29:55,076
Speaker 3: our discussions about these relationships and couples and so on.

471
00:29:55,676 --> 00:29:59,236
Speaker 3: So one night after dinner, we were all hanging out

472
00:29:59,276 --> 00:30:01,756
Speaker 3: in the kitchen, John and I were cleaning up. She

473
00:30:01,956 --> 00:30:06,396
Speaker 3: was there, maybe four years old, and we turned her

474
00:30:06,436 --> 00:30:08,636
Speaker 3: and we asked her, honey, what do you think it's

475
00:30:08,876 --> 00:30:12,916
Speaker 3: life in a house when mommy and daddy's don't get

476
00:30:12,956 --> 00:30:19,236
Speaker 3: along and they fight a lot. And she ended up saying, well,

477
00:30:19,356 --> 00:30:23,436
Speaker 3: there's no there's no rainbows in the house. And it

478
00:30:23,556 --> 00:30:26,516
Speaker 3: was like, oh my god, they say that. Can I

479
00:30:26,676 --> 00:30:29,396
Speaker 3: use that in her next book? I mean, you know

480
00:30:29,596 --> 00:30:35,316
Speaker 3: it was it was really, uh, the truth, the truth

481
00:30:35,556 --> 00:30:40,236
Speaker 3: right that the delight, the warmth, the glow that you

482
00:30:40,476 --> 00:30:45,756
Speaker 3: have in a relationship that is cooperative, an egalitarian and

483
00:30:46,076 --> 00:30:50,476
Speaker 3: caring of one another, that's building trust and feeling safe

484
00:30:51,156 --> 00:30:53,076
Speaker 3: is what creates those rainbows.

485
00:30:53,396 --> 00:30:55,956
Speaker 1: One of my favorite things is when you just kind

486
00:30:55,956 --> 00:30:59,436
Speaker 1: of walk through the transcripts of couples having these kind

487
00:30:59,516 --> 00:31:02,956
Speaker 1: of conflicts out and you kind of like annotate, like, uh,

488
00:31:02,996 --> 00:31:05,316
Speaker 1: they did a good thing here. I thought it was

489
00:31:05,316 --> 00:31:07,756
Speaker 1: so helpful because it really gave us the sense that, like,

490
00:31:08,236 --> 00:31:10,156
Speaker 1: you know, couples are just trying. They're not going to

491
00:31:10,156 --> 00:31:13,076
Speaker 1: be perfect. Sometimes you can mess up, but you can

492
00:31:13,116 --> 00:31:15,476
Speaker 1: sort of come back if you sort of fix things.

493
00:31:15,516 --> 00:31:16,836
Speaker 1: And I love that in your book you have a

494
00:31:16,876 --> 00:31:19,036
Speaker 1: list of like here's a spot, here's where you can

495
00:31:19,076 --> 00:31:20,476
Speaker 1: go to if you're having a tough time and you

496
00:31:20,516 --> 00:31:22,076
Speaker 1: need to kind of fix things too.

497
00:31:22,356 --> 00:31:26,756
Speaker 2: Yeah. Repair is really as good as it gets in relationships,

498
00:31:27,316 --> 00:31:32,436
Speaker 2: really trying to make repairs and accepting your partner's attempts

499
00:31:32,436 --> 00:31:37,436
Speaker 2: at repair as really positive things and receive the repairs

500
00:31:37,476 --> 00:31:40,516
Speaker 2: and intention to make things better for both of you.

501
00:31:40,556 --> 00:31:42,716
Speaker 1: Give me, give me an example and maybe a repair

502
00:31:42,756 --> 00:31:44,356
Speaker 1: that you might say in a fight, Like if you're

503
00:31:44,396 --> 00:31:47,036
Speaker 1: in the middle of a conflict and you say something unfortunate,

504
00:31:47,076 --> 00:31:48,196
Speaker 1: what would a repair look like?

505
00:31:48,516 --> 00:31:52,276
Speaker 3: John, I'm really sick and tired of the laundry being

506
00:31:52,316 --> 00:31:54,996
Speaker 3: all over the floor. Why do you always leave all

507
00:31:55,076 --> 00:31:56,196
Speaker 3: the laundry on the floor.

508
00:31:56,236 --> 00:31:59,276
Speaker 2: No, honey, I'm starting to feel defensive here. You know.

509
00:31:59,356 --> 00:32:02,476
Speaker 2: Can you sing in in a general way?

510
00:32:03,116 --> 00:32:07,116
Speaker 3: Well, let's see if I can. I don't think I can.

511
00:32:07,236 --> 00:32:10,836
Speaker 3: I'm just sick and tired of this stupid, stupid laundry. No,

512
00:32:10,956 --> 00:32:14,036
Speaker 3: wait a minute, you know I'm just saying it the

513
00:32:14,076 --> 00:32:18,596
Speaker 3: wrong way. Great, Okay, the laundry is on the floor.

514
00:32:19,876 --> 00:32:23,916
Speaker 3: I really don't like seeing it. Would you please clean

515
00:32:23,996 --> 00:32:25,996
Speaker 3: it up before we have Yeah?

516
00:32:26,076 --> 00:32:31,756
Speaker 2: Yeah, I will, thank you. That was a lot. You're welcome. Okay.

517
00:32:31,956 --> 00:32:34,276
Speaker 3: One of the best repairs in the whole wide world

518
00:32:34,636 --> 00:32:38,796
Speaker 3: is when you start feeling criticized or put down, just

519
00:32:38,956 --> 00:32:43,916
Speaker 3: say I'm feeling defensive. Could you say that another way

520
00:32:44,076 --> 00:32:48,796
Speaker 3: instead of going offensive? Right, just say I'm feeling defensive,

521
00:32:48,916 --> 00:32:51,356
Speaker 3: and it's it's a great one.

522
00:32:52,036 --> 00:32:54,236
Speaker 1: I think you both are like the Jedi of understanding

523
00:32:54,276 --> 00:32:56,876
Speaker 1: relationships and how we can sort of build empathy in them.

524
00:32:56,916 --> 00:32:58,916
Speaker 1: I'm just curious, you know, do you ever take this

525
00:32:59,076 --> 00:33:00,796
Speaker 1: on the road. You know, I know you watch so

526
00:33:00,876 --> 00:33:03,276
Speaker 1: many couples in the lab, but are you ever just

527
00:33:03,276 --> 00:33:05,396
Speaker 1: out at a restaurant or hanging out in the grocery

528
00:33:05,396 --> 00:33:08,156
Speaker 1: store watching these couple in family dynamics? And do you

529
00:33:08,156 --> 00:33:09,276
Speaker 1: ever intervene.

530
00:33:08,916 --> 00:33:12,116
Speaker 3: One hundred percent of the time? And no, we don't intervene.

531
00:33:12,596 --> 00:33:16,556
Speaker 3: I've got enough client, you know, and they're not asking

532
00:33:16,636 --> 00:33:19,356
Speaker 3: us to intervene, So why would we do that. You know,

533
00:33:19,476 --> 00:33:24,316
Speaker 3: that's intrusive, it's mortifying for them. So the last thing

534
00:33:24,356 --> 00:33:27,596
Speaker 3: I want to do is shame somebody for how they're

535
00:33:27,636 --> 00:33:30,196
Speaker 3: acting in a restaurant. So we'll just sit back and

536
00:33:30,236 --> 00:33:33,916
Speaker 3: watch and I'll usually feel sad if they're having a

537
00:33:33,996 --> 00:33:42,076
Speaker 3: hard time. There is only one situation typically where I

538
00:33:42,156 --> 00:33:45,276
Speaker 3: might intervene just a little bit. And that is in

539
00:33:45,316 --> 00:33:48,276
Speaker 3: a grocery store. We've all seen it. When a child

540
00:33:48,356 --> 00:33:51,476
Speaker 3: is having a temper tantrum. The mother may have, you know,

541
00:33:51,556 --> 00:33:55,396
Speaker 3: a baby in the growth free card along with this

542
00:33:55,516 --> 00:33:58,996
Speaker 3: child who's having the temper tantrum. And you can see

543
00:33:59,036 --> 00:34:04,236
Speaker 3: she's turning red. She's feeling mortified, she's feeling embarrassed, horrified,

544
00:34:04,596 --> 00:34:07,516
Speaker 3: and getting more and more stress. Her voice is getting louder.

545
00:34:08,116 --> 00:34:11,236
Speaker 3: I may go over to her and I may say

546
00:34:11,276 --> 00:34:15,196
Speaker 3: to her, boy, this is a hard day for you,

547
00:34:15,316 --> 00:34:19,276
Speaker 3: isn't it. This is really tough. God, it's so hard

548
00:34:19,356 --> 00:34:22,316
Speaker 3: when your kids starts screaming in a grocery store. Now,

549
00:34:22,476 --> 00:34:27,396
Speaker 3: notice I'm not criticizing her, which many people might want

550
00:34:27,436 --> 00:34:30,796
Speaker 3: to do if she's yelling at her kid. I'm trying

551
00:34:30,876 --> 00:34:35,716
Speaker 3: to use empathy to help her not feel so alone.

552
00:34:36,396 --> 00:34:40,396
Speaker 3: That's the key to reducing somebody's stress, helping them not

553
00:34:40,756 --> 00:34:44,276
Speaker 3: feel so alone with what they're going through by using

554
00:34:44,476 --> 00:34:48,796
Speaker 3: empathy and validation. Validation meaning yet makes sense to me

555
00:34:48,916 --> 00:34:53,116
Speaker 3: that you're feeling that. Yeah, And sure enough, that's what happens.

556
00:34:53,156 --> 00:34:56,636
Speaker 3: Her voice drops down, she makes contact, you know, eye

557
00:34:56,636 --> 00:35:02,036
Speaker 3: contact with me. I'm smiling at her. We share some warmth,

558
00:35:02,396 --> 00:35:06,636
Speaker 3: and then her voice gets quieter. It's a very simple

559
00:35:06,996 --> 00:35:11,036
Speaker 3: little intervention. Otherwise we sit back and watch and predict.

560
00:35:11,276 --> 00:35:13,396
Speaker 3: You know, what's going to happen to these couples in

561
00:35:13,396 --> 00:35:16,236
Speaker 3: a restaurant with their phones, not looking at each other

562
00:35:16,596 --> 00:35:21,156
Speaker 3: six years down the road, and that can be fun

563
00:35:21,276 --> 00:35:27,996
Speaker 3: to you should try.

564
00:35:29,716 --> 00:35:32,236
Speaker 1: We've now come full circle with our short season on

565
00:35:32,316 --> 00:35:35,156
Speaker 1: happiness and love, but hopefully you won't be thinking of

566
00:35:35,196 --> 00:35:38,116
Speaker 1: ditching us for someone else because The Happiness Lab has

567
00:35:38,156 --> 00:35:41,316
Speaker 1: many new shows in store. With me, Doctor Laurie Santos,