1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:02,760 Speaker 1: Taking a Walk. I'm buzz night and welcome to the 2 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:06,520 Speaker 1: Taking a Walk Podcast. Now, Willie Nelson is quite a 3 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:10,480 Speaker 1: subject to take on, and Jeffrey Hymes is the author 4 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: who has written Willy Nelson all the albums, the stories 5 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:17,600 Speaker 1: behind the music. So for a man like Willie who's 6 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:22,079 Speaker 1: been in perpetual motion, Jeffrey breaks it down the Troubadour, 7 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: the tax troubled Guy, the Farmer's Son, a country music icon. 8 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: We'll talk to author Jeffrey Himes next on taking a Walk, 9 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: Taking a Walk. Jeffrey, Welcome to the Taking a Walk podcast. 10 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: Miik you, So I asked this question of everybody, so 11 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 1: it'd be fitting that I ask it of you, sir. 12 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 1: If you could take a walk with somebody living or dead, 13 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: who would you take a walk with and where would 14 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: you take that walk with them? And I have a 15 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: feeling I know the answer, but it's up to you. 16 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 2: Well, it's to say, I'd like to take a walk 17 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 2: with Willie Nelson along at an Alice River near his 18 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 2: home and just have a chance to get away from 19 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 2: it all and talk about what it's like to write 20 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 2: those songs and how he went about it. 21 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 1: That would be great. Now, you have interviewed Willy before. 22 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, a couple of times. Right, And the book is 23 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 2: you know, I used the material from my interviews. I 24 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 2: use quotes from magazine newspaper stories about him and his autobiographies. 25 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 2: But it's basically trying to bring to life the music 26 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 2: he recorded over his long, long career and what does 27 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 2: that Why does that music enjore? Why does it still 28 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 2: captivate people all these years later? 29 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: What was the interview process like with him? Was it? 30 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: Do you feel like it was in a setting where 31 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: you were able to get Willie, you know, nice and 32 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: relaxed and warmed up before you started. 33 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,559 Speaker 2: Well, I have met them backstage a couple of times, 34 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 2: but the actual interviews were on the phone. And sometimes 35 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 2: interviewing people on the phone I found can be sort 36 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:15,239 Speaker 2: of like a Catholic confessional where you don't see each other, 37 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 2: and somehow you feel it's easier to just say whatever 38 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 2: and confess anything. So sometimes it works for your advantage 39 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 2: to be on the phone. 40 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember, I'm sure you remember the late radio 41 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 1: personality don Imus Imus. In his in his later years 42 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: of doing a show, he did certainly many interviews in 43 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: the studio, but he did a ton of them over 44 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: the phone, and I think that was his feeling, the 45 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: fact that you're getting more out of them because you know, 46 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: some of those inhibitions are kind of scraped away because 47 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: it's a phone call. 48 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 2: Right, That's true, that's counterintuitive, but I think it works 49 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 2: out that way. Yeah. 50 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: I didn't understand it at first, but then I began to, 51 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:05,679 Speaker 1: and then when you said it, it reminded me of that. 52 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: So do you remember the first point in your life 53 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,920 Speaker 1: where you were musically connected to Willie Nelson? 54 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:18,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, So as a kid, when I was in high school, 55 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,519 Speaker 2: in college, I was a real rock and roll fan, 56 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 2: like a lot of us. But when Bob Dylan and 57 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 2: the Birds started doing country music, it made me curious 58 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 2: and more investigated, the more fascinated I became by the 59 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 2: same thing happened for me with jazz and blues in 60 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 2: much the same way. Like somebody who's big star in 61 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 2: your own time, and then you realize that all their 62 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 2: influenced by this person, in that person's influence by that person, 63 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 2: you learn musical history backwards. I've always felt that was true, 64 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 2: and so I inevitably discovered Willie and he was so 65 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 2: fascinated because you know, he has. As I write in 66 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 2: the book, one of the things that's it's strange about 67 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 2: him is he has this way of presenting himself as, 68 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 2: you know, a sort of traditional country singer. He has 69 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 2: that sort of East Texas twang in his voice. He 70 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:16,039 Speaker 2: tells these stories, these sort of short songs about uh, 71 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 2: troubled marriages or troubled financial times, or people who die, 72 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:24,919 Speaker 2: and and so you can sort of accept it on 73 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 2: that level, but as you listen, you realize that, you know, 74 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 2: behind that foreground there's all these are jazz influences, there's 75 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 2: these blues influences, there's just sort of you know, Frank 76 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 2: Sinatra phrasing that he has, and and so it's it's 77 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 2: a very rich kind of country music, I think as 78 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 2: a result. And the other thing I discovered when I 79 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 2: really started looking at these songs and trying to explain 80 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 2: to myself and multiply to the reader why they work 81 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 2: so well. So I think that really has this way 82 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 2: of talking about personal loss or setbacks or betrayals where 83 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,919 Speaker 2: he talks about how much it hurts and what a 84 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 2: devastating blow it can be, but he always sort of 85 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 2: maintains this sort of dignity. He always maintains this sort 86 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 2: of belief that he's going to emerge from it and 87 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 2: keep going. That's not going to knock him down for good. 88 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 2: Dozens hundreds of songs like that. You know, he could 89 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 2: be talking to the walls and Hello Walls. He can 90 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 2: beat his old ex lover and funny how time slips away. 91 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 2: You know, he can fly into the Los Angeles to 92 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 2: get away from somebody and Bloody Mary Morning. But it's 93 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 2: the same theme and he never gets tired of it. 94 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 2: We never get tired of it because that's one of 95 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 2: the sort of central challenges we all face in life, 96 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 2: is how do you deal with loss? How do you 97 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 2: deal with setbacks? And really doesn't tell us what to do. 98 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 2: He demonstrates what to do. 99 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: Is unconventional phrasing and timing certainly sets him apart. And 100 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: you made reference to it. When did he discover that 101 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: signature style. 102 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 2: Well, he told me in one interview, he said, you know, 103 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,679 Speaker 2: my favorite country singer is George Jones. My favorite singer 104 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 2: of all time is Frank Sinatra, And I think it 105 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:25,119 Speaker 2: comes out of that sort of Sinatra era of pop 106 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 2: singers had a strong jazz and flaus and they went 107 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 2: north hit the expected beat. You know, they would like 108 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 2: maybe anticipate it or you know, let it lag a 109 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 2: little bit. And what that does is it you know, 110 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 2: if you do it correctly, it builds tension in a 111 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 2: song and then releases it and makes the song that 112 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 2: much more dramatic. And you know, I think that when 113 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 2: you're singing old songs, whether it's the songs of Cindy 114 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 2: Walker or star Dust or these old Bob Will songs, 115 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 2: it's all from that era when he's growing up in 116 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 2: the little town of Abbot, Texas, and it's what he's 117 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 2: hearing on the radio. He's absorbing that, and it's in 118 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 2: his DNA. When he plays the guitar, it's the same thing. 119 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 2: It's always the sort of pushing delay in the phrasing. 120 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 2: And this especially obvious when you see him live in concert. 121 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 2: You know, when he's playing these songs he's sung hundreds 122 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 2: of thousands of time, whether it's on the road again 123 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 2: or funny, how time slips away. He's got he's always 124 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 2: looking for a way to keep it interesting for himself 125 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 2: as much as for the audience, and so he's always 126 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 2: like tinkering with it. It's always shifting things around, and 127 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 2: you know, and so it keeps his vocals fresh, and 128 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 2: it makes the song sound new to us, even though 129 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 2: we've heard them hundreds of times. 130 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: We had you on our new podcast, Taking a Walk 131 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: Nashville with Sarah Harrilson, So folks should check that out. 132 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: But can you talk about Willie's early struggles in Nashville. 133 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: Why didn't that establishment really get him initially? 134 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 2: I think it has a lot to do with what 135 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 2: we were just talking about. His unusual phrasing. In Nashville, 136 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 2: especially there in the early sixties, there was these there'd 137 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 2: be these session musicians. They would come in, they learned 138 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 2: the song, and you try to record three songs in 139 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 2: three hours, you know, and boom boom boom, and you know, 140 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 2: these are great musicians, there's no question about that. But 141 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,439 Speaker 2: they weren't really given time to get used to Willie's 142 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 2: unconventional phrasing, and so there was always this sort of uncertainty, 143 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 2: you know, should they try to imitate his phrasing, should 144 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 2: he try to imitate their phrasing? And there's always these 145 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 2: bix results. It's so awkwardness sometimes we result. If you 146 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 2: hear live recordings from that era. There's an album called 147 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,839 Speaker 2: a Country Music concert, which was that Panther Hall in 148 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 2: Fort Worth in mid sixties. He's playing with his own 149 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 2: Texas band who knows how to play with him? You 150 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 2: can hear how you know, that sort of unusual approach 151 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 2: is already there. He's already thinking that way. It's just 152 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 2: that it wasn't translating to the Nationville studios because he 153 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 2: wasn't playing with his musicians. He was playing with people 154 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:28,079 Speaker 2: who were unfamiliar. Not bad musicians, but unfamiliar. One of 155 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 2: the things I write about in the book is that 156 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 2: during his long tenure at RCA Records, chat Atkins was 157 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 2: his producer. And chet is a great musician, very influential 158 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 2: country music history, but he had a way of doing 159 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 2: things that he knew would create country radio hits. Really 160 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 2: wanted to have hits. He was shy about that, but 161 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 2: he had this when he started singing, there was this 162 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 2: instinct datumnsard. It took over and it was very sort 163 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 2: of awkward for both men because they genuinely respected each other, 164 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 2: but they just had completely different visions of what Willie 165 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 2: Nelson album should sound like. 166 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: What was happening in country music that made the outlaw 167 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: movement so necessary? 168 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 2: Well part of us is what we're talking about is 169 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 2: that the artists did not have a lot of say 170 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 2: in the studios. The producers who had a formula that 171 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 2: they knew this formula works. You know, if you follow this, 172 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 2: you know you're going to be rewarded with hit records. 173 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 2: Willie was sort of chafing against those restraints. It's you know, Waylon, Jennings, 174 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 2: Merle hagget these all people who weren't comfortable in that 175 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 2: kind of situation. And you know, I think, you know, 176 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 2: any formula, no matter how good it is, gets stale 177 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 2: after a while, and I think that people were hungry 178 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 2: for something new. You know, these people, well, Chris Gustofferson, 179 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 2: Willie Nelson, Wayale and Jennings, Merle Haggard, Jessic Coulter, you 180 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 2: know who became known as the Outlaws. It was a 181 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 2: new sound. It was it was brilliant music. It was 182 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 2: sort of filled with emotion. It was unlike what people 183 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 2: have been hearing on the radio, and there was this 184 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 2: immense response to it. Redheaded Stranger. It was Willie's breakthrough album, 185 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 2: one of the first country albums called platinum. Wanted the Outlaws, 186 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 2: which is the multi artist album the RCA put together. 187 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 2: It went platinum, and so they were not only breaking through, 188 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:36,839 Speaker 2: but they were like raising the expectations for what a 189 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:38,199 Speaker 2: country album could do. 190 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 1: And talk about how Williams moved to Austin transformed him 191 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: both personally and artistically. 192 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 2: During the during this the RCA years, when he was 193 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 2: sort of butting heads up against the system. You know, 194 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 2: he would come to Nashville. He was living outside of Nashville, 195 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 2: this place called Ridgetop. You know, he was recording in Nashville, 196 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 2: his label was there, as producer was there, but he 197 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 2: was always driving down to Texas every weekend to play 198 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,719 Speaker 2: live because that's where he had a big following. She 199 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 2: didn't have anywhere else, and he had musicians that knew 200 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 2: how to play with him. And his house enriched up, 201 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 2: burned down. He moved down to Texas temporarily and this 202 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 2: house got rebuilt. He moved back to Tennessee and he realized, no, no, 203 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 2: this is not making sense. You know, I'm to be 204 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 2: spending most of my time in Texas playing live, and 205 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 2: I'm on be spending occasional weekend in Nashville recording an album. 206 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: It makes more sense to. 207 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 2: Be in Texas. So and and then to Armadillo, which 208 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 2: is an old National Guard armory in Austin. It became 209 00:12:54,080 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 2: a place where rock and roll in the same way 210 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 2: that sort of reticipated reactions to those records he had 211 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 2: the SUC seventies. 212 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: So did that bridge welcome back to the past enhanced 213 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 1: his zen like quality despite such a chaotic life. Is 214 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: that where it comes from. 215 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 2: I'm taking this from what I've read, not from my 216 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 2: I didn't know him back then, but people say that 217 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 2: really was not a good drinker. You know, he would 218 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 2: get angry and start vi and stuff like that, and 219 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 2: he was much more agreeable to be around when he 220 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 2: was started to stop drinking so much and start smoking 221 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 2: or dope. So I think that's part of it. But 222 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 2: I think also what we were talking about earlier about 223 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 2: the way he posted these songs and how he would 224 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 2: sort of talk about how things could go raw in 225 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 2: your life and you still need to like keep it 226 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 2: together and keep going. That's that's that's the sense quality 227 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 2: to that. And so even in those early singles back 228 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 2: when he was drinking, you could see that that was 229 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:16,199 Speaker 2: part of his personality, and it became it flowered more 230 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 2: and more once he especially once he had enough success 231 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 2: that he wasn't like worried all the time about feeding 232 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 2: his family, paying all u ex wives. 233 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: When did activism sort of become the foreground of his personality? 234 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: You know, his work for farmers, cannabis legalization. You know, 235 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: how did this connect to his music? 236 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 2: I think that you know, the first the first sign 237 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 2: of it is when Charlie Pride was first courting as 238 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:52,239 Speaker 2: a singer and one of the few African American artists 239 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 2: to be on a major label of country music and 240 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 2: really went out of his way to bring Trialie onto 241 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 2: his shows and to you know, make sure that that 242 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 2: the promoters treated him fairly and audience has treated him fairly. 243 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 2: He had those instincts all along. He grew up during 244 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 2: the Depression when everybody was having a hard time, so 245 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 2: he sympathized with people who were on the outs of things. 246 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 2: And the other part of it is he was always 247 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 2: sort of had sympathy for the renegade, the outsider, the 248 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 2: outlaw as they say that in the outlaw music movement, 249 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 2: and so you know, he was likely to support people 250 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 2: who were in that category. 251 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: So he's most recently been out with Bob Dylan. Can 252 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: you talk about that relationship, where it first began, how 253 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: it has sort of manifested itself over the years, and 254 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: how they're in their own way Kindred Spirits. 255 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 2: I can't remember the exact year they first connected. I 256 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 2: think goes on one of those early eighties albums. Anyways, 257 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 2: you know they're obviously the Kindred Spirits, the boat songwriters. 258 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 2: Kimber who was I think, really recorded a song that 259 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 2: Dylan had written for him. There's one hundred and fifty 260 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 2: two albums. I can't remember what songs from which albums necessarily, 261 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 2: but periodically they would they would cross paths and collaborate 262 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 2: on something. I think that were the key things that 263 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 2: brought them together was Farm Made. When Dylan performed at 264 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 2: the We're the We Are the World concert Philadelphia, they said, 265 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 2: you know, this is nice that we're doing this for 266 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 2: the people in Africa, but what about the family farmers 267 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 2: in the United States. Why aren't we doing something for them? 268 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 2: And Willie sort of picked up on that and you know, 269 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 2: organized Farm Made, and then Dylan said, well, yeah, of 270 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 2: course I will perform. It's the first few of them. 271 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 2: And I think that that was a connection that brought 272 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 2: them together and moved forward Dylan's like a reclusive guy, 273 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 2: so he's not the guy who's going to sort of 274 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 2: hang around Willy's golf coursing. Uh pick so, And for 275 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:15,640 Speaker 2: all we. 276 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: Know, when they're on the road, they really probably don't 277 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: even connect that much, right, I mean, it's not like 278 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,959 Speaker 1: they're doing jam sessions by the campfire till midnight, right 279 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: exactly exactly. There's one collaborator that has been with Willy 280 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: for a long time, the great harmonica player Mickey Raphael. 281 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: Can you talk about that collaboration and what you think 282 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:38,880 Speaker 1: that means to Willie's legacy? 283 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:44,199 Speaker 2: I can as it so happens. I just interviewed Vicky 284 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 2: for one of my podcasts on a Hard Rain and 285 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 2: Pink Cadillacs on Substack. Has it aired yet, It'll be 286 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 2: coming out later this month. Yeah, Vicky was not a 287 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 2: real country fan when he first met Willie. He played 288 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 2: up because he loved the Blues, the Chicago Blues players 289 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 2: like Little Walter. He ended up playing with B. W. 290 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 2: Stevenson and Dallas if you remember that name. Darryl Royal, 291 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 2: the University of Texas football coach, was a fan of 292 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 2: Mickey's from those Steve Stevenson shows. And he invited Mickey 293 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 2: to come to one of the picking parties that Willie 294 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 2: was going to play in, and there was a private 295 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:34,679 Speaker 2: party in the coach's house. Nicky brought his harmonicas and 296 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 2: Willi plays his songs and Micky played along, and the 297 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:39,919 Speaker 2: end of the night he said, yeah, Billy said, you know, 298 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 2: anytime you want to come sit in with us, we'd 299 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 2: love to have you. So whenever Willy was playing in 300 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 2: the Reasonable Drive of Dallas, Mickey would show up at 301 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 2: the Harmacra's play and play. And after several weeks of this, 302 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:58,919 Speaker 2: Willy asked his drummer and road manager, Paul English, so 303 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 2: how much we paying Mickey? And Paul said, oh, we're 304 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 2: not paying him anything. He's just just sitting in. And 305 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 2: Willi says, double his salary. But they started paying him 306 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 2: and he just, you know, he says, I was never 307 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 2: actually hired. I just you know, start getting paid fifty 308 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 2: years later, you know, here I am. So the other 309 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 2: side of this story is that Willie's Texas band, trying 310 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 2: a lot of great musicians, had a steel guitar player 311 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 2: named Jimmy Day, who's like a country music legend. You know, 312 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:36,679 Speaker 2: it's just a genius on the steal. He was not. 313 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 2: He drank a lot. He was not easy to get 314 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 2: along with, and so Willie would fire him and hire him, 315 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 2: and fire him and hire him. And this went on 316 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 2: for a while and finally, you know, Billy had enough 317 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 2: and he said, now what am I going to do? 318 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,439 Speaker 2: I can't hire another steel player that says good as 319 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 2: Jimmy Day, but I need to have something to fill 320 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 2: that hole in the songs. That's when he met Mickey, 321 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 2: and he said, well, you know, actually this works because 322 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 2: it's like it has a you know, that sort of 323 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 2: sustaining quality that a steel has, a sort of you know, 324 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 2: logottal lines, and so it actually fit better than you 325 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 2: would expect. You know, harmonica, Uh, there's been harmonica uh 326 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 2: and country music. Charlie McCoy was the great harmonica player 327 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 2: that played on a lot of songs, a lot of albums, 328 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 2: including a couple of Dylan albums. And and so Mickey 329 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 2: was sort of in that bold he was, you know, 330 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,640 Speaker 2: he can improvise, he can you know, play the blues, 331 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 2: you can play country and uh it's sort of fit 332 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:41,879 Speaker 2: the role of the still guitar player but sounded different. 333 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 2: So it was one more thing that sort of set 334 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 2: Willy apart from everybody else in Nashville. And Matt Rawlings 335 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 2: is a keyboardist producer who's worked with Willy. He told 336 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:56,880 Speaker 2: me that, you know, there are three things that make 337 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 2: a Willy record a Willie record. That's Willie's boy. Is 338 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 2: this acoustic guitar trigger which is a nylon string with 339 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 2: a big hole in it. And Nicky Rafael's harmonica. If 340 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 2: you have those three things, that's going to sound like 341 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 2: what else? 342 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,640 Speaker 1: That's so awesome? That is great. Well, everybody check out 343 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,640 Speaker 1: the great book from Jeffrey Hims Willie Nelson, all the albums, 344 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: the stories behind the music. It is beautiful. It is 345 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:29,159 Speaker 1: so detailed. It is a wonderful piece of work, just 346 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: like Willie, a wonderful piece of work. Now, so ye right, 347 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 1: very fitting. But Jeffrey, thank you so much for your 348 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,479 Speaker 1: generosity of being on Taking a Walk. Really appreciate it. 349 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 2: Wow, glad to be here. Thanks for listening to this 350 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 2: episode of the Taking a Walk Podcast. 351 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 1: Share this and other episodes with your friends and follow 352 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: us so you never miss an episode. Taking a Walk 353 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, and wherever 354 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,119 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, m