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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Sanny and Samantha and welcome to Step one.

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Speaker 1: Never told you a protection of iHeartRadio, and we are

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Speaker 1: taking a brief sojourn, a brief break from our religious

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Speaker 1: Trauma episodes. Although we are going to be talking about

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Speaker 1: religious trauma and here, yes we are. I think it's

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Speaker 1: shaped a lot of the counterculture of where we are today. Essentially, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think so. I mean a lot of us have

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Speaker 1: those stories, and I know we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: it more in our Religious Trauma series, but I specifically

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Speaker 1: have a moment of like sitting in a friend group

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Speaker 1: where everyone was recounting being afraid of going to Hell

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Speaker 1: as a child, which is quite a thing. So I

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Speaker 1: do think it has shaped a lot of discourse. So

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Speaker 1: we are doing our book club a little bit early

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Speaker 1: content warning for suicidality, abuse, sexual assault, trauma, and I

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Speaker 1: would say, I would say specifically trauma, but also queer

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Speaker 1: trauma specifically and trans trauma specifically, So keep that in mind. Again,

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Speaker 1: we're not going to go too deep in any of that,

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Speaker 1: but they are themes throughout that we are going to

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Speaker 1: be discussing. So take care of yourself. If today's not

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Speaker 1: the day, come back another day. If this never the day,

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Speaker 1: then that's what we can do. But we are talking

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Speaker 1: about a really something I think was really important work,

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Speaker 1: and that is I Hope we Choose Love, which was

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Speaker 1: a twenty nineteen collection of essays and poetry that was

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Speaker 1: written by Chinese Canadian Kai Cheng Tom, and it's largely

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Speaker 1: about their experience being a queer person of color. Also

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Speaker 1: a quick note, we saw Tom's pronouns as she, her

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Speaker 1: and she they they them, So if we got that wrong,

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Speaker 1: please write in and let us know. We decided to

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Speaker 1: go with day for this, but yeah, just let us know.

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Speaker 1: It's very it's it was a quick read, it's very honest,

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Speaker 1: it's difficult, it's moving, but it's hopeful. It's really hopeful,

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Speaker 1: and it tackles difficult topics with a level of nuance

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Speaker 1: that is often missing. It is a thoughtful critique about community,

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Speaker 1: especially the queer community, and the importance of voicing these

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Speaker 1: critiques in a meaningful way and having these honest conversations.

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Speaker 1: So I really enjoyed it and it made me think,

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Speaker 1: It made me think about a lot of stuff, and

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Speaker 1: so highly recommend. It's already very quick, but it stayed

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Speaker 1: with me because I was thinking about all that stuff.

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Speaker 1: Tom also wrote a children's book called From the Stars

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Speaker 1: in the Sky to the Fish in the Sea, and

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Speaker 1: they also wrote Fierce Films and Notorious Liars, a Dangerous

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Speaker 1: trans Girls comfabulous memoir, and other things as well. But

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Speaker 1: their work is highly acclaimed and awarded. It's got some

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Speaker 1: really cool, really cool awards attached to it. Also, they

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Speaker 1: are a social worker, so you know we called out

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Speaker 1: in Counselor, and of course I also have to call

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Speaker 1: that out. So they do a lot of work that

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Speaker 1: does some introspective level of filling themselves and their trauma

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Speaker 1: and how they worked with it as a social worker.

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Speaker 1: There was a lot of depth that I think was there,

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Speaker 1: so personal but very clinical. Love it. Yes, yes, I

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Speaker 1: did think about you throughout a bunch of this. And

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Speaker 1: also this one is a quote heavy one because we

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Speaker 1: don't have the experience, the lived experience that Tom does

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Speaker 1: to talk about a lot of this, But I will

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Speaker 1: say a lot of it resonated with me, not just

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Speaker 1: as a queer person, but also because Tom talks a

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Speaker 1: lot about like being a public being, someone in public

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Speaker 1: talking about these things, talking about social justice and what

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Speaker 1: that looks like. So there was a bunch of it.

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Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, I've been thinking about this. They

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Speaker 1: do a great job in bringing in a different perspective

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Speaker 1: for specific things that I thought I had a handle

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Speaker 1: on that. I was like, oh, yeah, that's that could

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Speaker 1: be damaging. Even though the intention is good, it's not

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Speaker 1: great for different communities. I was like, wow, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's really good. It's really good. So let's jump in.

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Speaker 1: Here's how the book opens. As I write this book

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Speaker 1: in the spring of twenty nineteen, it has become something

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Speaker 1: of a truism among my community of queer people of color.

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Speaker 1: At the end of the world is nigh. A wave

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Speaker 1: of right wing and openly fascist governments that have been

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Speaker 1: elected to power across the world. Wealth and power are

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Speaker 1: increasingly concentrated in the hands the brazenly corrupt few. Climate

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Speaker 1: change and mass extinction are ravaging the earth, largely unacknowledged

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Speaker 1: by those with the power to do anything about it.

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Speaker 1: As for those communities of queer people, racialized people, disabled people,

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Speaker 1: marginalized people that have been taking back their power, the

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Speaker 1: social justice activists that raised me to believe in the

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Speaker 1: possibility of a revolution that would change and save the world,

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Speaker 1: sometimes it seems like the most painful cuts of all

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Speaker 1: time come from within my own community. Call out culture,

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Speaker 1: lateral violence, puritanical politics, intimate partner abuse, public shaming. We

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Speaker 1: know so much about trauma, but so little about how

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Speaker 1: to heal it. What would community know about saving us

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Speaker 1: from the apocalypse? Yeah? I feel like they really ask

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Speaker 1: some deep, hard questions and pointing fingers inwardly, so not

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Speaker 1: only to themselves, but to those they would consider friends

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Speaker 1: and their family. And I think that's such a great,

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Speaker 1: dangerous but a great perspective, because you do have to

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Speaker 1: start really looking at your own social group and it

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Speaker 1: has become toxic. Are you willing to confronted? And they

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Speaker 1: seem to. I think they do a great job with that.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, okay, so let's jump into another one. They

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Speaker 1: said not only was I in pain, but my pain

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Speaker 1: was publicly known, scrutinized, gossiped over. People, mostly queer and racialized,

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Speaker 1: people whom I didn't know, sent me emails and Facebook

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Speaker 1: messages that were thousands of words long, asking for intimacy

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Speaker 1: and attention, and occasionally threatening me when I didn't acquiesce.

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Speaker 1: Journalists asked me for interviews about my private life, my sex, life,

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Speaker 1: my family, my mental health. No topics seemed to be

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Speaker 1: off limits. I was stalked in real life and online.

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Speaker 1: I became terrified and paranoid. I stopped trusting people and

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Speaker 1: this thing we called community. I stopped trusting myself. All

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Speaker 1: around me, the people I loved were also in crisis, psychological, financial, medical, interpersonal.

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Speaker 1: When you live in a community of queers, anarchists, and activists,

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Speaker 1: crisis is the baseline and stability and outlier. Among trans women,

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Speaker 1: life expectancy of thirty five is the norm. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: that's like going to what Tom does talk about about

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Speaker 1: being kind of in this public space and having to

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Speaker 1: to deal the mental toll of being open and dealing

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Speaker 1: with these topics. When trans women have a life expectancy

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Speaker 1: of thirty five, like you know, when you're dealing with

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Speaker 1: it personally, it is important to talk about. And I

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Speaker 1: was kind of talking about this. Obviously my experience it's

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Speaker 1: not the same, but I was talking about this with

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Speaker 1: our book recently where I was like, you know, people

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Speaker 1: and I really appreciate it, but people keep kind of,

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Speaker 1: you know, congratulating as I'm writing the book, and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: when they asked me about the experience was like I

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Speaker 1: was like, well, I was crying like every weekend because

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Speaker 1: it was the topics we had to talk about, like right,

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Speaker 1: and again, those are important topics to talk about, They're necessary,

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Speaker 1: they are critical, but it's we can't pretend there is

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Speaker 1: not a mental toll of rights. I mean, that's definitely

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Speaker 1: when we were doing books. When we're doing a difficult subject,

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Speaker 1: you and I check in with each other often when

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Speaker 1: it's something we know it's personal, because it does it

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Speaker 1: takes a level of intimacy and vulnerability to lay this

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Speaker 1: out and trying to sound like an expert at the

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Speaker 1: same time. And I think it's interesting because they do

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Speaker 1: talk about being a pseudo celebrity, like a celebrity within

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Speaker 1: their own community, and then what kind of ownership do

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Speaker 1: they do they have versus what their audience has when

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Speaker 1: they are the ones that are on the front lines

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Speaker 1: or when they are are the ones that people see

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Speaker 1: as a representation, like what is owed and what is

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Speaker 1: an ode? And also yeah, being in activist mode, being

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Speaker 1: in crisis mode. I've talked about it with social work

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Speaker 1: all the time, when I said I went to therapy,

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Speaker 1: but I could never get to the root of what

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Speaker 1: was happening of my trauma of anything because I was

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Speaker 1: putting out fires of the crisis that I was constantly

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Speaker 1: in because of my job. And even with this there's less,

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Speaker 1: but there's also different types of crisis that I fill.

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Speaker 1: I'm in with this. You and I talk about this

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Speaker 1: often when we talk about the fact that we're overwhelmed

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Speaker 1: or we're overwhelmed that we're not meeting expectation, or that

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Speaker 1: there's a level of yes, there's a level of ownership

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Speaker 1: of by the audience, by the listeners, and that we

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Speaker 1: owe that owe you the listeners something and it's not

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Speaker 1: the listener's fault at all, But there is that whole

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Speaker 1: level about okay, accountability versus ownership, about being told we

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Speaker 1: have to do these things, and because we are in

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Speaker 1: the public eye, we have to do more to be cautious.

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Speaker 1: That puts us unto the point of being so anxious

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Speaker 1: that we can't move, that we freeze instead of actually

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Speaker 1: doing anything because we're so scared of making the next

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Speaker 1: bad move or being called out. As they say, and

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Speaker 1: they talk about this a lot. I'm sure we're gonna

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Speaker 1: get into it, but about people falling off a pedestals

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Speaker 1: and then being harassed to push to the extreme that

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Speaker 1: they feel like they have to give up or change over.

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Speaker 1: And of course, again it's not to say it's someone

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Speaker 1: else's fault, because if they decide all of a sudden

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Speaker 1: they are turf from being, you know, an activist in

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Speaker 1: the trans world. That's a whole different conversation that they

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Speaker 1: probably always was there. But that level of being harassed

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Speaker 1: and bullied instead of being given a chance to grow

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Speaker 1: and learn, Right, Yeah, we are going to talk about

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Speaker 1: that more. And I would also say Tom talks about

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Speaker 1: that too, of when you are in any way marginalized

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Speaker 1: and any intersection within that in our media escape landscape

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Speaker 1: that is still largely you know, white men, white people.

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Speaker 1: Then journalists come to you right for this, and so

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Speaker 1: then that's like a whole extra level of pressure because

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Speaker 1: you're getting more asked for these kind of these very

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Speaker 1: painful stories or questions, and that that is an issue

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Speaker 1: here too. All right, here's another quote. So, in the

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Speaker 1: midst of despair, I have come to believe that love,

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Speaker 1: the feeling of love, the politics of love, the ethics

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Speaker 1: and ideology and embodiment of love is the only good

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Speaker 1: option in this time of the apocalypse. What else do

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Speaker 1: we have. I mean love that is kind but also honest.

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Speaker 1: Love that is courageous and relentless and willing to break

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Speaker 1: the rules and smash the system. Love that cares about

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Speaker 1: people more than ideas, that prizes each and every one

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Speaker 1: of us as essential and indispensable. I mean love that

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Speaker 1: is compassionate and accountable. I mean love that confirms and

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Speaker 1: reaffirms us as complex and fallible, yet lovable anyway, love

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Speaker 1: that affirms us as human. I want to live in

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Speaker 1: love and believe in love. If I have to die,

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Speaker 1: I want to die and love. This whole world might

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Speaker 1: be coming to its end, or it might be in

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Speaker 1: the midst of an enormous and terrifying change that leads

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Speaker 1: us to something better. Either way, I want to go

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Speaker 1: through it in love with the people I love. And

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Speaker 1: this is how it opens again, Like it really comes

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Speaker 1: out swinging. But I wanted to include it. And there's

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Speaker 1: another quote. We're all talk about this a bit more.

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Speaker 1: But I love this idea of like love as honest

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Speaker 1: and kind, Like it's not just love without questions, it's

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Speaker 1: love with like how can we all be better? Here's

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Speaker 1: something I see with you. But there's also a really

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Speaker 1: great quote later where Tom writes something about like where

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Speaker 1: you can have the feeling you can confront somebody and

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Speaker 1: they won't leave like that because we're so afraid of confrontation,

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Speaker 1: we don't have it. But if we could like trust

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Speaker 1: in this love of like we need to talk about this,

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Speaker 1: we need to have this confrontation in a healthy, healthy way,

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Speaker 1: but you won't leave because of it. And why the

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Speaker 1: trauma of being in a marginalized community makes that so

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Speaker 1: much harder, right right, absolutely, and that to get into

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Speaker 1: that marginalized community you feel like you have to work,

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Speaker 1: and if they talk about that that you're not just welcomed,

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Speaker 1: you have to work to be in there even though,

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Speaker 1: and to prove it. But at the same time they

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Speaker 1: talk about the fact that also sometimes we don't ask

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Speaker 1: for people to work just because they identify something, so

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Speaker 1: that's just as wrong. So there's so many layers. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: speaking of layers, we're going to get into the themes again.

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Speaker 1: This is all quotes, probably because they do a great

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Speaker 1: job in talking about it as a as a memoir.

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Speaker 1: They've already thought about what they're trying to say, so

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Speaker 1: to try to rephrase it is silly. So We're gonna

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Speaker 1: do a lot of quotes with our own experiences or

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Speaker 1: thoughts with so here's one about religion. Deep down, I

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Speaker 1: have always believed that I'm a bad person and that

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Speaker 1: the world we live in is an awful place. Maybe

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Speaker 1: that's just what happens when you grow up and a

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Speaker 1: feminate boy secretly a trans girl in a Chinese Canadian

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Speaker 1: Christian Ish, not religious enough to go to charge, but

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Speaker 1: enough to use the threat of eternal damnation as a

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Speaker 1: motivator for a household, chores, family with class trauma and

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Speaker 1: inherited mental health issues. You know. Yeah, And this is

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Speaker 1: a right along the lines when we talk about trauma

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Speaker 1: and where we haven't talked about it yet. This is

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Speaker 1: an upcoming episode we talk about the hell Fire and

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Speaker 1: Brimstone era of the circuit pastors that brought that in.

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Speaker 1: Of course, Paul also did that. I don't know how

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Speaker 1: I feel about Paul. Yeah, it's gonna be a theme, um,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, it is, and I think it's again for

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Speaker 1: an Asian woman myself adopted, it wasn't the fear of hell.

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Speaker 1: It was the fear of disappointment at not being grateful mum.

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Speaker 1: And then also but that fears. What this is why

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Speaker 1: I can't hate on Christians that witness and that by

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Speaker 1: witness I mean trying to get you to convert to Christianity.

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Speaker 1: Is because they truly believe if they don't convert you,

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Speaker 1: you're going to suffer in the afterlife and who and

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Speaker 1: they want to save you. Yeah. I had a teacher

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Speaker 1: tell me in eighth grade it's like, I'm watching you

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Speaker 1: run off a cliff and I just want to save you.

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Speaker 1: I had a similar that thing happened with my boss

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Speaker 1: when I was like thirty two. But yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: that's obviously the very beginning of them trying to figure

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Speaker 1: out who they are um and knowing that they weren't

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Speaker 1: meeting they were never going to meet the expectations of

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Speaker 1: their family. Yeah. So going on is they say, fast

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Speaker 1: forward to me in a hospital bed, in a psych

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Speaker 1: ward after my suicide attempt at sixteen years old, still

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Speaker 1: thinking the same thing. Double fast forward to me at

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Speaker 1: twenty six in twenty seventeen, first typing this essay through

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Speaker 1: chronic pain and brain fog in bed on a Saturday morning,

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Speaker 1: still thinking about the same thing. So in retrospect, it's

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Speaker 1: easy to see how I got into the whole social

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Speaker 1: justice radical queer activism thing. Like most of my peers,

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Speaker 1: all I wanted was to be good or, in the

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Speaker 1: fashionable parlance of various political movements in the past ten years,

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Speaker 1: quote red down or woke, like my mental ill transsexual

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Speaker 1: never gonna hack my parents ideas of good unlike my

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Speaker 1: Harvard educated biodegradable plasticizer inventing engage to a Hedge fund manager,

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Speaker 1: psychiatry resident older sister. But the red queer community offered

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Speaker 1: me a whole new set of norms for performance and

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Speaker 1: ability that, at least on the surface, gave a value

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Speaker 1: to the identity factors you know, transsexual effeminacy, mental illness,

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Speaker 1: general bad attitude that had caused me so much childhood shame.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and I was a crazy transgirl of color

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Speaker 1: living in a white systeminant society. Where else could I go?

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Speaker 1: What else could I do? It was a whole new

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Speaker 1: chance to be good, to be righteous, to do good works,

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Speaker 1: and become lovable at last. Yeah again, this is like

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Speaker 1: paralleling our talk about trauma religious trauma, because exactly what

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Speaker 1: it is that you cannot meet the standard in one place,

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Speaker 1: so you try to meet that standard in another. Yeah, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I think that this book really hammers home, which

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about some more in a second,

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Speaker 1: but like that guilt and that shame and religion is

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Speaker 1: so much about, well my experience with religion, and I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of our series of religion is about that.

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Speaker 1: It is about like you are never good enough. You

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Speaker 1: are constantly having to ask for forgiveness, Like I'm not

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Speaker 1: even Catholic, and I remember asking for forgiveness for like

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Speaker 1: things you did wrong. I'm saying I'm putting quotes around

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Speaker 1: that because I remember doing it once where it was

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Speaker 1: like I accidentally took this pencil, a pencil from school,

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Speaker 1: and I was like cry. I thought I was going

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Speaker 1: to hill, Like it's it sounds funny, but when you're

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Speaker 1: a kid, you believe this stuff and it sticks with you.

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Speaker 1: It's not easy to get rid of. And so I'm

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Speaker 1: pivoting from that to you still have that feeling like

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Speaker 1: you want to do good, you want to get rid

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Speaker 1: of that shame that you feel. That quote lead to

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Speaker 1: this suicidal ideation, and so where do you go if

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Speaker 1: you've lost this community, if you've left this Christian community,

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Speaker 1: where do you go? And that, yeah, so much of

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Speaker 1: it so much of this made a lot of sense

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Speaker 1: to me, Like, of course, like if you it makes

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Speaker 1: sense they would go into this queer group, into this

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Speaker 1: trans group because there wasn't what else was there? As

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Speaker 1: they say, Yeah, and as we talked about already, this

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Speaker 1: kind of this part of the book kind of pivots

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Speaker 1: into the being online, being that pseudo celebrity, as you said,

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Speaker 1: the mental cost of making it, as we discussed already,

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Speaker 1: of like really having to put yourself out there, these

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Speaker 1: really painful things out there, maybe things you're just not

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Speaker 1: don't want to share. But also talks about the infighting

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Speaker 1: within the quote social justice war your community. So I

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Speaker 1: have a bunch of quotes about this because I thought

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Speaker 1: it was really interesting. Here's one, simply put in social

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Speaker 1: justice land, we emphasize our marginalized identities and downplay our

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Speaker 1: privileged ones to seem cooler and more important and to

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Speaker 1: shield ourselves from critique online. I'm sometimes see arguments in

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Speaker 1: which people try to shut each other down using identities

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Speaker 1: as weapons. Eg. You can't talk to me that way.

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Speaker 1: I'm trans and you're being transphobic. Oh yeah, well I'm

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Speaker 1: a fem and you're a mask. Shut your misogynist, femphobic mouth.

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Speaker 1: This type of identity politics is based on a level

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Speaker 1: of essentialism that I am uncomfortable with. It assumes that

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Speaker 1: all people of color, transfolks, etc. Have the same experience,

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Speaker 1: and that identity categories apply uniformly across the board. It

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Speaker 1: also reduces people to a very restricted set of relevant

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Speaker 1: identities and erases the rest of their life experiences while

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Speaker 1: fetishizing the pain of the oppressed. Strategic essentialism, the ability

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Speaker 1: to talk and foreign groups based on generalities, is an

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Speaker 1: important tool for activism, but a kind of identity politics

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Speaker 1: that discomforts me is not strategic so much as disingenuous

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Speaker 1: and self serving. It often feels like we are far

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Speaker 1: more interested in diversity or identity rather than diversity of thought.

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Speaker 1: So I want to include some of this stuff because

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Speaker 1: I do think, like we said at the top, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of nuance in Tom's arguments around this, and

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Speaker 1: I think this is one Tom tackles a bunch of

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Speaker 1: stuff we're just not comfortable talking about. Like there are

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Speaker 1: certain things, of course, like that have context and that

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Speaker 1: certain people should just never weigh in on. Or either

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Speaker 1: you're the support but you're never the leader. But there

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Speaker 1: is We've talked about this too, like the kind of

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Speaker 1: performative activism or not really looking into what someone is saying,

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Speaker 1: just reacting knee jerk, like those kind of instances of

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Speaker 1: people going after the wrong personal social media because they

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Speaker 1: didn't research anything about what they were so angry about.

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Speaker 1: So it's it is nuanced. It is not a simple conversation,

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Speaker 1: but it is one we should have because if we're

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Speaker 1: not having the conversations we should be having sometimes because

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Speaker 1: of this. Yes, here's another quote. I am a trauma

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Speaker 1: survivor kill subtries, and the thought of safety consumes me

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Speaker 1: on a day to day basis. I am sympathetic to

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Speaker 1: the need for safety because most of the time I

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Speaker 1: don't feel safe, But I struggle with safety politics when

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Speaker 1: the safety of an individual or group comes at the

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Speaker 1: expense of another individual or group's freedom. All writers like

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Speaker 1: to whine about the loss of freedom of speech to

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Speaker 1: the politics of safety, by which they mean white dude's

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Speaker 1: freedom to be virulently misogynist, racist, transobic, ableist. I am

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Speaker 1: more concerned about vulnerable individuals who stand to actually lose

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Speaker 1: social access and bodily autonomy. I am thinking, for example,

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Speaker 1: about queer community centers where I have worked that restrict

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Speaker 1: the access of mentally ill, trans women, and homeless people

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Speaker 1: because their very presence makes middle class queers feel quote unsafe.

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Speaker 1: Safety is I believe, an inherently classed, raced, engendered experience

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Speaker 1: that frequently runs the risk of being used for regressive ends,

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Speaker 1: ironically for restricting the freedom of the vulnerable, those who

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Speaker 1: are never really safe. Often we see the call for

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Speaker 1: safety actually reinforce the power of oppressive institutions like the

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Speaker 1: police and the prison system in our lives. When we

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Speaker 1: choose safety over liberation, our movements fail. Yeah, that was

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Speaker 1: a good Again, Like it's such nuance in that of

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Speaker 1: the class involves and like safety and in these communities

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Speaker 1: that we just don't talk about as much right of

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Speaker 1: the courts again, Yeah, who is what protections are being

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Speaker 1: provided to? Which groups? Yeah? And it's never for the

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Speaker 1: marginalized or those who are in need are being threatened

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Speaker 1: the most. I think they talk about that a lot

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Speaker 1: and has a lot of dangerous side effects. I guess

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Speaker 1: I don't know results to it when it comes down

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Speaker 1: to the lack of safety, but the term of safety

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Speaker 1: and the same thing as that police were there to protect,

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Speaker 1: but oftentimes they are the aggressors, especially when it comes

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Speaker 1: to the marginalized communities, and there's no safety under a

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Speaker 1: police state. We know this, right. Something else that Tom

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Speaker 1: talks a lot about in this book is related to

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Speaker 1: that kind of performative activism, this sort of performance of

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Speaker 1: virtue and what we talk about a little bit earlier

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Speaker 1: of like you have to prove yourself to be in

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Speaker 1: in certain communities, that feeling that you have to prove

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Speaker 1: yourself anyway. M Yeah, you did it better, all right.

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Speaker 1: So let's get into the quotes. The social justice Internet

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Speaker 1: is rifle with peer pressure to repeatedly and constantly demonstrate

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Speaker 1: one's adherence to the norms of thought and belief that

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Speaker 1: are currently in fashion. We strive, We strive to outdo

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Speaker 1: each other's comments, tweets, and status updates with political critiques

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Speaker 1: and takedowns while using the latest, most perfect, unoppressive terminology.

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Speaker 1: I've heard friends described this as quote activist theater where

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Speaker 1: goodness is performed and absolution for the original sins of

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Speaker 1: privilege and ignorance is temporarily granted. Yeah, y'all, I feel

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Speaker 1: this is the core which agains why we don't go

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Speaker 1: on social media, and that's part of the problem, right,

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Speaker 1: that's part of the problem. But also I will say too,

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Speaker 1: like this describes. We've talked a lot about burnout within

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Speaker 1: activism and within feminism, and and a part of that

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Speaker 1: had to do with what we were discussing earlier around

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Speaker 1: like it's hard. It's hard, and a lot of us

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Speaker 1: are not good at taking care of ourselves because we

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Speaker 1: constantly feel like we have to do this thing right.

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Speaker 1: But if you're online all the time feeling you've got

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Speaker 1: to outdo other people's comments, twaints, whatever, you're going to

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Speaker 1: burn yourself out much faster and or do what I

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Speaker 1: was just talking about, which is not really understand what

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Speaker 1: you're critiquing because you're so busy, like I've got to

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Speaker 1: critique it now first, right, And Bridget talked about that

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Speaker 1: a little bit on one of our past episodes we

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Speaker 1: did with her about you know, you don't always have

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Speaker 1: to have a hot take. There are some things you

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Speaker 1: just I don't I don't know anything about, so I'm like,

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Speaker 1: take about I can learn more about it, right, not

429
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 1: my arena. I don't know why you're asking you this.

430
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:57,159
Speaker 1: I don't have no comment, thank you very much. No comment.

431
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 1: There's another one. A lot of public debate has already

432
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: raged about the benefits and drawbacks of call out culture

433
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: and activism, so I won't go too deeply into it,

434
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 1: suffice it to say a culture in which the majority

435
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: of political education is done through public shaming is neither

436
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 1: all that socially transformative nor psychologically healthy. Yeah, and I

437
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,360
Speaker 1: think we talked about this in our TikTok episode as

438
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:29,199
Speaker 1: well as previously about cancel culture. Again cancel culture. We

439
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 1: talked about the fact that accountability is huge and then

440
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 1: we need to have that. However, accountability means learning and teaching,

441
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:42,880
Speaker 1: and this whole call out just to disparage and make

442
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 1: fun of not helpful. I get it. No, you're angry

443
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 1: and you want just and this is your form of justice.

444
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,400
Speaker 1: But that's not right. And I remember in our TikTok episode,

445
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: but you're more specifically talking about like kind of that

446
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 1: entertainment aspect of like, yeah, I'm looking for any small

447
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 1: thing you've done wrong that I can call out without

448
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:08,239
Speaker 1: that nuance, because people should absolutely be held accountable. But

449
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 1: there's a difference between doing that and just trying to

450
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 1: take people down to get more clicks yourself So here's

451
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 1: another quote. What strikes me as particularly interesting and disturbing

452
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: about celebrity culture and the social justice movement in its

453
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,679
Speaker 1: relationship to mob mentality and capitalism. We are happy to

454
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,439
Speaker 1: take political direction from celebrities within the massed hierarchy of

455
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: the movement, at once elevating and scrutinizing them, that is,

456
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:35,880
Speaker 1: until they say something that we do not agree with.

457
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 1: The result is an atmosphere where individuals are not encouraged

458
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: to engage authentically with the complexities and ambiguities of our politics,

459
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: either because we are quote not important enough, or because

460
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 1: we have been raised too high to fall. And yeah,

461
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 1: that goes back to what we were saying about. I mean,

462
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: even as an individual person before I came on the show,

463
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:03,239
Speaker 1: was so scared to post anything. For sure, Yeah, I

464
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: was less scared, but I was also really self deprecating

465
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: and I was like, this is not funny, and some

466
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 1: of these comments are ablest. Yeah that's not okay. I

467
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 1: think that's what because you don't realize you're being ableist

468
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: when you're thinking you're poking fun at yourself, right, And

469
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 1: there's so much to that that you really have to

470
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: think of. But I can it's overwhelming. It is overwhelming.

471
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: So they also talk about shame and they write shame

472
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 1: rules community, and not only the social justice kind. In

473
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 1: every tight knit ideological steep community that I have known, Chinese, Canadian,

474
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 1: Christian queer, shame and judgment pervade in the social justice movement.

475
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: Privilege is our original sin and the doctrine is our

476
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: hell Mary. The political workshop and the protests are our church,

477
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 1: and the organizers speakers are our priests. Shame and judgment

478
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 1: are the twin faces of trauma, and we are trained

479
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 1: to see ourselves and others through their yes. And I

480
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: think one of the things that I remember when I

481
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,479
Speaker 1: first started on the show that this really resonated with

482
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: me is that I was very concerned about, like, you

483
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: are not feminist enough. You have to do so much,

484
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 1: you have to do so much, and I was learning,

485
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 1: like I looking back at some of those episodes, I

486
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: had so far to go, and I still feel like

487
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: I do, which is not bad. It's good to learn.

488
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 1: That's the keys that you don't like get stuck in

489
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 1: your ways and not listen to people. That I remember

490
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: I kind of got called out by someone for being

491
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 1: like not inclusive when it came to people with disability

492
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: and protest and so then on a following episode, I

493
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 1: did I made sure to go out of my way

494
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: and be like, you know, but if you can't do

495
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 1: this because of disability or something whatever, and then somebody

496
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: wrote in and was like, no, people can do it,

497
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 1: like and so I just got so yeah in my

498
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: head about wait, wait. It's kind of the language because

499
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: we think we're being on top of things, so when

500
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: we see specific languages of this and that, and then

501
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: later like this is more divisive, and you're like just

502
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: so and again you know, we're not trying to play

503
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 1: the ignorance or make expenses, but the constant changes and

504
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 1: listening to a community, it's really really important. And I

505
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 1: think that's part of the thing, is like when you

506
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: especially if you're not a part of that community, right,

507
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 1: being hyper aware is important, but that level of being

508
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 1: shamed to the point that you're just like I can't

509
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: I give up, right, and then you feel like you

510
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: can't even mention it anymore. Right, But it was also

511
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 1: in this case, like it was more of a and

512
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: we have talked about this in several episodes, and I

513
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 1: know we talked about it in our Ada episode, but

514
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: it was more like it wasn't intersectional. I can say

515
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 1: about the second critique. Maybe I didn't. I would very

516
00:31:58,000 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 1: I'm ready to believe I didn't voice it in the

517
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 1: way I'm not showing away from that. But the secretique

518
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 1: wasn't very intersectional. So I mean, that's part of it.

519
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: And that's one of the things I loved about how

520
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 1: Tom kind of ended this part was if it's not inclusive,

521
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: it's not my revolution. And that is our big part

522
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: of that whole intersectional feminism. That's what we try to

523
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: keep in mind every time we put together these episodes.

524
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: Are we being intersectional? And we do love hearing from you,

525
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 1: even if it is kind of a kind of like

526
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 1: like tap on the wrist, hey, right, and those things

527
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: like we are all open to criticism and when you're

528
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: teaching us, and again this is the whole call out

529
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: versus call in level and being like, hey, this is

530
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: what we think. I mean. People were super angry when

531
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: we first got on and I wrote the definition of

532
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 1: the by community and they were upset, and I was

533
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: very confused because I'm like, I just I took us

534
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: off a quote. I don't know what's happening, but understanding

535
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 1: that that was so damaging. I was like, okay, okay,

536
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: you're correct, let's correct this. And we had like a

537
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 1: wonderful two part series three part three part serious to

538
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 1: it about bisexuality, and I learned a lot and amazing

539
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 1: people were so patient to tell us everything and have

540
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: a sit down conversation, and it was really real, like

541
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 1: if they got offended, they said it right away. You know.

542
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 1: We learned from that very quickly, and I think it's

543
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: important that we continue to have those conversations. But yeah,

544
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 1: it does like it does affect us in the future

545
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 1: of like oh no, yeah, we will always want to

546
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: be inclusive, as you were saying, and intersectional, and we

547
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: also absolutely acknowledge we have not walked the paths of

548
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: many of the people who have gone through things like

549
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: this specifically, and so trying to be over the top

550
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: cautious sometimes silences us. Yeah. Yeah, we will have a

551
00:33:57,920 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 1: little bit more about that in a minute. I did

552
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 1: to include an example of the poetry, because again, this

553
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,719
Speaker 1: has also got poetry in it. It's really a lot

554
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 1: of it's really beautiful and moving. And here's one about

555
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: like you are allowed to leave, about domestic violence. Relationship

556
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 1: should never be based on fear should never be based

557
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,720
Speaker 1: on they will kill themselves if I leave an adult

558
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: human life is too much, too much for any one

559
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 1: person to hold. Repeat it after me. Hold it close

560
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 1: to your heart as you walk away, as you grieve

561
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 1: the loss, as you find yourself. Leaving is not abuse.

562
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: Getting out is not abuse. Freedom is not abuse. Freedom

563
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: is never abuse. Yeah, yeah, I feel like a lot

564
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 1: of people that hits that. And then I wanted to

565
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 1: include this because again, a lot of us made me

566
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 1: think of you, Samantham a lot of this book, and

567
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 1: there is a whole section about validation and being damaging

568
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 1: and specifically critiquing active listening, which I had heard you for.

569
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,839
Speaker 1: So we have a couple of quotes about that. This

570
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 1: is probably somewhat true. I can describe well enough. The

571
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 1: situation of a volunteer who was speaking for brief periods

572
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,760
Speaker 1: to strangers, playing psychologist and giving half baked, unsolicited advice

573
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 1: to people in crisis is generally a bad idea, don't

574
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 1: do it. But the problem is that this politicization of

575
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: a rigid, specific form of validation seems to be applied

576
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:35,280
Speaker 1: to a huge range of informal situations outside of crisis

577
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 1: support on half baked unsolicited advice. So they also said

578
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,919
Speaker 1: because we questioned the notion that given choices, people will

579
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 1: always choose wrong or that we would automatically know what

580
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 1: was wrong for them, and because often the immediate feedback

581
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 1: we get for providing unquestioning validation is very positive and

582
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 1: we feel conflict. Ten years later, I'm still trying to

583
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 1: undo my validation and active listening training because I want

584
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 1: to listen not only actively, but also mindfully, compassionately, critically, lovingly.

585
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 1: Now I want to be listened to in those ways

586
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 1: by my friends and family. I have come to believe

587
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:17,839
Speaker 1: that support, or at least the kind that comes from

588
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 1: loving long term relationships, is characterized by not only validation,

589
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: but also grounding, containment, authenticity, willingness to enter the space

590
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 1: of conflict, as well as the knowledge that we will

591
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 1: emerge from it. Sometimes I want advice from my friends

592
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,760
Speaker 1: because the truth is I don't always know what's best

593
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 1: for me. I want to know if my friends think

594
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 1: I'm doing something wrong. Yeah. Absolutely, I got very irritated

595
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 1: out of training. We had in something and they were

596
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 1: talking about active listening, and I was like, no, no,

597
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:58,839
Speaker 1: don't do that. I think texting you like this is bad.

598
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: I really want to go back and do everything they

599
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,879
Speaker 1: just said. Don't do this. Don't do this because you're

600
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: going to push people away. Yeah, and this is it.

601
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 1: I felt this a lot too, and I this is

602
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 1: a hard one to grapple with because you want to

603
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 1: support your friends. And I think that's the key, is

604
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 1: that it's your friends. If you have good friends and

605
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 1: people you trusted, people who support you, like honestly truly

606
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 1: support you. There's a difference between that and like some

607
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 1: random person or somebody who's not really your friend. But

608
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 1: it is hard, Like, at least for me, I really

609
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:40,720
Speaker 1: struggle with conflict and I freeze up because of my past.

610
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 1: Is because of some of the stuff that's happened in

611
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 1: my past where I do feel responsible for other people's

612
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 1: emotional health. And so in that case, the easiest thing

613
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:56,319
Speaker 1: to do is to be like, no, you're fine, it's good,

614
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 1: it's good. So this is not This is another thing

615
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 1: that they talked about that is not easy at all,

616
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 1: but it is true, and it has so many layers

617
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: to it because again, like you don't want somebody who

618
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 1: doesn't have your best who isn't really looking out for

619
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 1: you being the one saying you're wrong. That's different than

620
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 1: like a friend you truly trust them, we'll support you.

621
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 1: I think a lot of these conversations what we don't

622
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 1: realize just frankly telling someone you're doing this wrong or

623
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 1: you need to do this, it's not actually helpful in general,

624
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: even if you are good friends. I think in the

625
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 1: most aspects. Of course, if you've been going around and

626
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 1: round and round a subject and you finally get to

627
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 1: the point of like, okay, let's just be real, frank

628
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 1: because you've had the permission of finally getting to that

629
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: point and you understand and you have a depth of

630
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 1: knowledge instead of just like the one time you talked

631
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 1: about it. A lot of the times, for me, if

632
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 1: there's something that there's that there needs to be a

633
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 1: blanket statement about is because of again the repetitive like okay,

634
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 1: you've got yourself into a trap. Let's let's I'm just

635
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 1: gonna frankly tell you and see what you say. But

636
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,720
Speaker 1: on most of the levels, is really forming those thoughts

637
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 1: as questions because most of the times when you're help

638
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 1: saying a statement, you don't know what the answer could

639
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 1: have been had you asked the question of instead of saying,

640
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 1: don't do this, it's just more of a well what

641
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 1: would happen if you did this instead kind of conversation.

642
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 1: And I say this because that also validates. Instead of

643
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,760
Speaker 1: being the active like constantly thinking, being active in listening

644
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 1: and meaning yeah, you could constantly interrupt I saying oh yeah,

645
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 1: oh yeah, huh so you did that. Okay, that's not helpful.

646
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: That's very interruptive. By the way, it does help you

647
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 1: kind of summarize with them and I actually backtrack what

648
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:49,919
Speaker 1: they because they don't often know what they just said.

649
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 1: I know for me in my conversations, that's when I

650
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 1: discover something when I'm actually saying it out loud, I'm like,

651
00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 1: oh god, I did it right. Yeah, And that could

652
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:03,759
Speaker 1: be just as validating as well as holding someone accountable, right.

653
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,479
Speaker 1: And I think that's a great point because, as Tom said,

654
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 1: it's like it's a difference between being unquestioning validation and

655
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 1: being like, wait, let's talk about this a little bit

656
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 1: more before. Yeah, here's another quote. I believe that in

657
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 1: our best, most valuable human moments, that urge to overvalidate

658
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 1: comes from our fear of crossing boundaries of replicating the

659
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 1: traumas that abusive families and social oppression have enacted on

660
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 1: our developing selves. I don't want to be validated. I

661
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:35,879
Speaker 1: want to be loved. And I put that in because

662
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 1: they make great points about this about like again, being

663
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: in marginalized communities and every all of the intersections of

664
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 1: that that that fear of confrontation gets bigger and bigger,

665
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 1: and because you know what other people in that community face,

666
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:55,440
Speaker 1: because you've faced probably something similar, So like, it just

667
00:40:55,520 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 1: gets very difficult to not have that najuor like, oh no, everything,

668
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 1: I'm going to validate you. But it is it's hard.

669
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 1: It's like, it's hard to unlearn that. It's very for me.

670
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 1: It's a very natural thing that happens. There is a

671
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 1: lot of discussion about suicidality in this Here's a quote,

672
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 1: and this was a story about Robin Williams and kind

673
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: of the coverage of Robin Williams after he took his

674
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 1: own life, and it was really heartbreaking, but a different

675
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: I hadn't really thought about it in this way specifically,

676
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 1: but here's a quote. So let us continue to tell

677
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 1: stories about suicide, but instead of seizing the stories of

678
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: others and posing on them a preconceived understanding. Let us

679
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,240
Speaker 1: listen to the complexity of the tension, the horrible human

680
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,280
Speaker 1: messiness that come with them. Let's listen to it all

681
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 1: and accept that we can never fully understand the forces

682
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 1: that drive someone to live or die. So that was

683
00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 1: sort of about like the after Robin Williams had died,

684
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 1: all of the media being like, well, here's why, but

685
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 1: we don't know, we'll never know for sure why, And

686
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 1: it takes like the spectatorship yeah of someone's crisis. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

687
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,439
Speaker 1: And Tom goes on to talk kind of more about

688
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: that about suicide being framed or used as a political tool,

689
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 1: especially for trans women. Quote. The argument around body sovereignty

690
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 1: and consent are to me clearly rooted in a misunderstanding

691
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: of what it means to provide care, the action of

692
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,760
Speaker 1: giving help and caring, the feeling of being cared about.

693
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 1: The predominant white, colonial, queer trans narrative of proper consent

694
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 1: to being cared for or goes something like this. Someone

695
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 1: expresses that they are in pain, or you happen to

696
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 1: see that they are, You offer them help. If they refuse,

697
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 1: you back off, no questions asked any further attempt to

698
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 1: help could be considered a violation. This narrative holds a

699
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 1: lot of resonance with me. Both bodies sovereignty and constent

700
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 1: politics come from movements around medical care and sexual slash

701
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 1: romantic intimacy. But I believe this approach also comes from

702
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 1: a traumatized place. It is rooted in queer and trans

703
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: experiences of abusive families and intimate partnerships in which we

704
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,839
Speaker 1: were not allowed to refuse, We were not allowed to leave,

705
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 1: So our reaction is to swing to the other extreme.

706
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 1: We encourage people to leave, and we don't question the

707
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 1: refusal of love even when it is clearly needed. Yeah.

708
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 1: So again, that's like a difference between someone who dressed

709
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 1: obviously a friend versus somebody not. But I thought that

710
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 1: was also a really poignant Yeah. I think if they refuse,

711
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 1: you back off a question, any further attempt to help

712
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,320
Speaker 1: could be considered a violation. I think that's something really

713
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 1: important to remember, especially when we talk about those who

714
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:58,799
Speaker 1: have been assaulted in domestic violence situations. I think about

715
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 1: that often, push and trying to be you need to

716
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 1: do this, you need to do this, you need to

717
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 1: do this, and if you do it to a person

718
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 1: who is not ready, yeah, it causes more trauma and

719
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 1: also this level of failure and then you've also put

720
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 1: a gap between you and them and you're no longer

721
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:18,359
Speaker 1: someone safe for them to come to. And I hate

722
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 1: that because I'm it almost sounds like we're saying condoning

723
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,799
Speaker 1: a violent situation, but you really there's nothing you can do.

724
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 1: Kind of that talk of like it's not your fault leaving,

725
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 1: it's not abuse. Stop being not saying something it's not

726
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 1: necessarily abuse. It is that level of like being supportive

727
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 1: and understanding their grounds and why they've set them, and

728
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 1: though you want to save them, it's not something that

729
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:47,319
Speaker 1: you can take on and if something goes wrong, it's

730
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 1: not your fault. And that that's level of like if

731
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,359
Speaker 1: they're not ready, you're never going to be the one

732
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:57,439
Speaker 1: to tell them they are right. And I think, yeah,

733
00:44:57,640 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 1: so many of these things are not easy at all

734
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,479
Speaker 1: UM because we want to fix we want to fix

735
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 1: problems for people who care about UM, and it is,

736
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 1: it is it's so hard when you realize like I

737
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,319
Speaker 1: can't I'm not what they need, or I can't put

738
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 1: this on me, But also I do I love that

739
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 1: Tom put this in terms of trauma, of like the

740
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 1: queer trauma or trauma for trans people, about why it's

741
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: even worse, Like it's even like, oh, I've been so

742
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 1: traumatized by these experiences that i need Like it's almost that,

743
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 1: you know, I'm telling you to leave because you're trying

744
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 1: to do something to make you feel like you have

745
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 1: any kind of control. But it's coming from trauma when

746
00:45:43,120 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 1: you really do need somebody. Now, you know, it's a mess.

747
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 1: And here's another quote. And in terms of considering trans

748
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 1: women's suicide within a transmisogynist social system, I do not

749
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:14,880
Speaker 1: believe that quote supporting the agency of suicide is actually

750
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 1: a legitimate refutation of the social system. Rather, it is

751
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 1: the ultimate expression of disposability culture. It allows us to

752
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 1: disguise inaction in the face of mass suffering and death

753
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 1: in pretense of compassion and radical politics. It is not

754
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 1: radical to quote support trans women dying when we are

755
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 1: already being murdered regularly. It is not revolutionary to simply

756
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 1: accept that society is so terrible that trans girls might

757
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:42,800
Speaker 1: as well kill ourselves. After all, we are the society

758
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 1: that supports the trans girls and sends these messages about

759
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 1: whether life might be worth living. It is our responsibility

760
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 1: to change the stakes, to offer different options, to keep

761
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:55,720
Speaker 1: reaching out and sending the message that we will never

762
00:46:55,760 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 1: stop trying, never stop caring, and never stop loving. Right.

763
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 1: That's that's there's just so level and I know they

764
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 1: have that kind of back and forth as well of responsibility,

765
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 1: but also just giving up and allowing it to be

766
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 1: a norm and how disgusting it really is. That is

767
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 1: something that why are we acting like this is a

768
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 1: bad thing? I know the disabled community talks about this

769
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,959
Speaker 1: often when it's portrayed that they would rather die than

770
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 1: not do be able to do something else, and it

771
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,359
Speaker 1: is so able us and like, wait, I'm fine with

772
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:31,919
Speaker 1: this and I can fully function and live a happy life.

773
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 1: Why are you saying this I'm not worth living? What

774
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 1: the hell is this? And it's kind of that same

775
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 1: level of trans people like, yeah, the suffering, there's a

776
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 1: lot of suffering, but that doesn't mean they don't deserve

777
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 1: to live and have a happy life, right. And I

778
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:47,719
Speaker 1: think there's also I know some listeners have written in

779
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: about this about kind of the martyring of people who

780
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 1: die in terms of activism and how damaging that can be.

781
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 1: So here we have a bunch of quote about what

782
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 1: is one of the biggest themes in this book, which

783
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 1: is queer spaces and in fighting within queer spaces, and

784
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: why it's so hard to have conversations and serious and

785
00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 1: genuine conversations about that as queer people. Okay, so quote

786
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 1: in queer community. We already know why our people die.

787
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:31,840
Speaker 1: We are killed by homophobia and transphobia, murdered by strangers,

788
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 1: family in a state that seems determined to deny as

789
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:37,759
Speaker 1: any vital resources such as healthcare and shelter. What we

790
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: do not know is why we hurt each other physically, psychologically,

791
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 1: and sexually, such as the power of our devotion to

792
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 1: protecting the mirage, the glamorous fantasy of our community. We

793
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:51,279
Speaker 1: are already so few, and those who would destroy us

794
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: are many. Life is already so hard, so dangerous. Is

795
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 1: easier to turn away, to pretend that we don't see

796
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:00,799
Speaker 1: what is happening right in front of us. So yes,

797
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:06,400
Speaker 1: then Tom delves into some examples and some numbers around this.

798
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 1: So here's some more quotes for a community that's supposedly

799
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 1: steeped and progressive politics, sex positivity and mutual love, queers

800
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 1: hurt each other horribly an awful lot. Nearly half of

801
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 1: an individuals who identify as gay or lowsbian report experienced

802
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:25,239
Speaker 1: sexual violence or psychological abuse from a partner, and more

803
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:28,839
Speaker 1: than half of bisexual individuals experience the same. Similarly, more

804
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:32,240
Speaker 1: than half of trans people report having experienced intimate partner

805
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,879
Speaker 1: violence in their lifetime, and trans feminine individuals, particularly those

806
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 1: of color, are much more likely than other groups to

807
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 1: experience physical violence and be murdered by their partners. How

808
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 1: do you call out the community that took you in

809
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:47,880
Speaker 1: when your family wouldn't. How do you call out the

810
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 1: people who loved you whom you still love, the people

811
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:53,240
Speaker 1: who taught you who you were and helped you to survive?

812
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 1: How do you call out your lovers, friends, mentors, role

813
00:49:56,000 --> 00:50:00,200
Speaker 1: models when you're not sure either of you will survive?

814
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 1: And then, in simple terms, this means that I cannot

815
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 1: speak up about queers who have harmed me because that

816
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 1: will result in them being harmed. It also means that

817
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 1: if I do choose to speak up, they may try

818
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:13,840
Speaker 1: to avoid harms to themselves by suing, intimidating, or otherwise

819
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 1: enacting more violence against me. Yeah, I think this is

820
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 1: such an important conversation to have because it's true. I

821
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 1: mean that they also have a whole section where they're

822
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 1: talking about um sort of the pressure to online tell

823
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 1: people about like give you know, give names of who's

824
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 1: hurt you, and it's it's when you have this, when

825
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 1: you have this threat of violence, when you did it

826
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: was the community that took you in after you lost

827
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 1: perhaps your religious community or what what have you or

828
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:58,239
Speaker 1: your family and you know what will happen like it's

829
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 1: it's it's difficult, and it allows for a lot of

830
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 1: abuse to go unchecked and untalked about. That whole like

831
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 1: section about the questions like how do you call other

832
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 1: people who loved you and you still love and especially

833
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 1: Tom also goes into like you know all the trauma

834
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,720
Speaker 1: they faced, which doesn't excuse anything, but we have to

835
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:24,279
Speaker 1: talk about what is happening, why, why this is happening,

836
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 1: but it's so dangerous to do so, right, And then

837
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 1: that's the same conversation of them being the example society,

838
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 1: we know what just happened with that school shooting recently,

839
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 1: and it turned to be a trans man and that's

840
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:43,480
Speaker 1: the most like, that's the immediate pit point that they

841
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 1: came to was that it was a transman, like we

842
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:50,720
Speaker 1: told you they're dangerous. And that's the first time in history,

843
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean years that that has been

844
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:58,760
Speaker 1: a thing, that that a mass shooting, shooting in general,

845
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 1: was committed by a transman. That's not the average. And

846
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 1: the entire year we've had so many shootings and all

847
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:10,759
Speaker 1: of them have been mainly men sins men, but we

848
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 1: don't want to talk about statistics. They become the example

849
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 1: and then they become the boogeyman, and that's a damaging

850
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 1: part to society, to that community. And that's what we

851
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 1: see also within the black community. They don't many black

852
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 1: women don't want to report men black men because they're

853
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:32,719
Speaker 1: already going to be criminalized immediately. But the sentence they get,

854
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 1: whatever happens, they may die even before they make it

855
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:38,879
Speaker 1: inside a jail cell or any of that, or into

856
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:42,600
Speaker 1: a courtroom. So the dangers of that alone causes people

857
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 1: to not report. I also have the whole Black women

858
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 1: are like, I don't care if they touched me, They're

859
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 1: going jail. I love that for them, but you know,

860
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:53,120
Speaker 1: that's that's that level conversation that we have, like we

861
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 1: cannot talk to it, and I know that we're gonna

862
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 1: keep going. But I think one of the big things

863
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:00,919
Speaker 1: and I really thought found interesting this is the part

864
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:03,319
Speaker 1: that I found interesting when we talk about consent, when

865
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 1: they talk about sex work and consent, because you and

866
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 1: I had we had that book. We're talking about consent

867
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 1: and just really talking about enthusiastic consent versus all of

868
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:13,880
Speaker 1: these things. And then Tom really brought out the conversation

869
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 1: about sex work like this is it's never going to

870
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:19,880
Speaker 1: be enthusiastic consent. So that's just damaging that term in itself.

871
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:22,920
Speaker 1: And then when we were turning that notion is can

872
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:25,360
Speaker 1: be harsh. You need to really think about it before

873
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 1: you try to apply to every community as a generic

874
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 1: because that is a very sis heteronormative, middle class privilege

875
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 1: to be able to say it. And I hate that,

876
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:36,799
Speaker 1: I hate that that should be a thing. But they're

877
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:40,360
Speaker 1: just level like, wow, yeah, Okay, maybe we need to

878
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:43,360
Speaker 1: rethink what we're talking about when it comes to consent

879
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:45,839
Speaker 1: and who it applies to and how we should acknowledge

880
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 1: the separation that it deserves. But and then there's and

881
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 1: then moving on, they here's another quote about the dangers

882
00:53:56,680 --> 00:54:00,160
Speaker 1: there are more trans people on television than ever before,

883
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:04,840
Speaker 1: but transit youth remain vastly, disproportionally homeless and suicidal. Trans

884
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:10,120
Speaker 1: people's visibility has skyrocketed, but anti trans legislation and discrimination

885
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:14,160
Speaker 1: remain rampant. Trans rice are debated more and more frequently

886
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:17,280
Speaker 1: in major news outlets, but trans women who are black, brown,

887
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 1: and sex workers continue to be assaulted and murdered regularly. Yeah,

888
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 1: that's exactly what And this was written in twet nineteen.

889
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:28,960
Speaker 1: I would hate to see what their take on all

890
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:32,840
Speaker 1: of that today. Yeah. Well, Tom does have a website

891
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:34,880
Speaker 1: where they write a little book posts, so you can

892
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:40,920
Speaker 1: check that out. And then I want to include this quote.

893
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:42,640
Speaker 1: I want to take a moment here to note that

894
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 1: white people are always asking queers of color to tell

895
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 1: them the ethnic gay story. Was it hard to come

896
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 1: out to your family? They ask, eagerly, eyes right with hunger?

897
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 1: Are they very traditional, which is to say querphobic? And

898
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:55,959
Speaker 1: it's taken for granted that the traditions of non white

899
00:54:55,960 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 1: cultures are kurophobic. Liberal white people love the ethnic gay story.

900
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:03,360
Speaker 1: It confirms their belief in the superiority of whiteness and

901
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:07,520
Speaker 1: assuages their sublimated guilt over the queer phobian racism that

902
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 1: are still rooted deep within white dominant, colonial Western society.

903
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:14,280
Speaker 1: But the ethnic gay story misses is that the queer

904
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 1: children of diaspora are not the passive victims of our villainous,

905
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:20,600
Speaker 1: ignorant families are at least not in the way that

906
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 1: white people like to imagine. Our relationships with our blood

907
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 1: ourselves are more complicated than that. Yes, I think that

908
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:32,200
Speaker 1: going back to the point at the top, where you know,

909
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:37,480
Speaker 1: journalists reaching out to somebody like every intersection within and

910
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:41,799
Speaker 1: because of all of these systems of white supremacy and patriarchy,

911
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 1: you know, transplant of color not as many in our

912
00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:51,400
Speaker 1: her media landscape, that it becomes this sort of like also,

913
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:56,000
Speaker 1: as Tom said, this fetitization of your story and all

914
00:55:56,040 --> 00:56:01,040
Speaker 1: of that stuff, and right, don't do it. I mean,

915
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:04,560
Speaker 1: that's definitely that conversation of oh, tell me about your

916
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:07,879
Speaker 1: culture where you from really telling you all of these

917
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:11,480
Speaker 1: things and you're and if you have like site a

918
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:15,239
Speaker 1: similar story of like mind, they do have this entertainment

919
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:18,760
Speaker 1: factor of like, oh wow, so you were in an orphanage,

920
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 1: what was that? Like you're adopted, what was that? It

921
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:27,879
Speaker 1: becomes this fable, almost cautionary tale, like that whole Cinderella level.

922
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:29,759
Speaker 1: My I would have loved to found up fronts. I

923
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:36,080
Speaker 1: want to be but that level of entertainment and something

924
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:45,239
Speaker 1: that's really traumatic exactly. Yep. Yes, um. Well, here is

925
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 1: our final quote, which is towards the end of the book,

926
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:51,080
Speaker 1: I am haunted. All trans women are behind me. Stretches

927
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:53,879
Speaker 1: a line of ghost trans women killed before their time

928
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 1: by the hatred of a society that does not know

929
00:56:56,120 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 1: how to love us. Perhaps this is why trans women's

930
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:02,040
Speaker 1: words are so powerful in those rare moments when we

931
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:04,560
Speaker 1: are allowed to speak, we speak with the voices of

932
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 1: those who have come before. Yeah. Honestly, it's a short book,

933
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 1: but it covers so much the few pages that it is.

934
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:18,800
Speaker 1: It's about one hundred and thirty I think, and it

935
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 1: is hopeful. I feel like a lot of the stuff

936
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 1: we've been talking about is not. But I mean, it

937
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:26,160
Speaker 1: doesn't shy away from the pain of it in the

938
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:31,640
Speaker 1: conversations we need to have. But highly recommend it. Highly

939
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 1: recommend it. Well that's what we have to say about it.

940
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 1: Go check it out if you haven't already. As always,

941
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:44,440
Speaker 1: if you have a recommendation for a book for us

942
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:47,240
Speaker 1: to read. You can email us our emails Steffinia Mom

943
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:49,600
Speaker 1: Steff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on

944
00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:52,880
Speaker 1: Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok

945
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:54,880
Speaker 1: that Stuff I Never Told You. You can also find

946
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 1: us on YouTube. We have a book coming out. You

947
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:02,840
Speaker 1: can preorder it now on stuff You Should Readbooks dot com.

948
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:06,040
Speaker 1: Thanks as always to our super producer Christina, our executive

949
00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 1: producer Maya, and our contributor Joey. Thank you all, and

950
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 1: thanks to you for listening. Stuff I Never Told a

951
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:14,040
Speaker 1: resproduction of iHeartRadio. For more podcast on my heart Radio.

952
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:16,000
Speaker 1: You can check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or

953
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:17,560
Speaker 1: whever you listen to your favorite shows.