1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Body darts. But Joseph's gotten more been pondering this a 2 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: bit lately, the idea that when we're babies, I know 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 1: this is very simplistic, but the idea that when we're babies, 4 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: we are totally dependent upon those that are charged with 5 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: our care, hopefully a good set of parents, They watch 6 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: after all of our needs. And I know that this 7 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: is kind of an old uh what's the word, an 8 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 1: old trope perhaps, but you know, at some point in time, 9 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: the baby becomes the parent, and the parent almost reverts 10 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 1: back to an infant like state where they are dependent 11 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: upon their children. They've lived a full life, but now 12 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: the world that they live in is a world that 13 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 1: becomes sometimes unfamiliar. Makes us very vulnerable, doesn't it. Today 14 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: I want to talk about a victim who I think 15 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: arguably led what would be considered by most an incredible, 16 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: remarkable life. We're going to talk about the death, the 17 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: alleged murder of a lady who is eighty one years 18 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: old living in a care home in Virginia. I'm Joseph 19 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is Body Bags. David. I've been 20 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: on vacation recently and I know you told me not 21 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: to but I looked at the news, I read an 22 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: article I was not supposed to. I know I wasn't 23 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: supposed to, but I did it anyway. So I hope 24 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 1: you can find it within your heart to forgive me. 25 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. 26 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: And the reason I happened to pick up on this 27 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: and only you would appreciate this about me, because you 28 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: know how cracked my worldview is my lens is. It 29 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: caught my eye because it was an article about what's 30 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:34,839 Speaker 1: being framed as a suicide capsule. And when I say 31 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 1: suicide capsule, I'm not talking about like something that's hidden 32 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: in the tooth of a spy, you know in one 33 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: of these movies where they popped the tooth out and 34 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: they can take the side. No, this is a suicide capsule. 35 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: And this article was about this thing that has been 36 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:59,799 Speaker 1: developed in Switzerland where you can well you can self eustonize. 37 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:05,839 Speaker 1: And and I was thinking, and this is not necessarily 38 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: for people that have run you know, have run out 39 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: their life as far as age, they haven't aged out. 40 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: It's a matter of them making a choice to end 41 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: their life in this thing that looks like something off 42 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: of Star Trek. As a matter of fact, it looks 43 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 1: exactly if star Trek nerds are out there, it looks 44 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: exactly like what was it the search for spot that 45 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: that addition that far Yeah, yeah, I think where they 46 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: shoot his casket out of that. 47 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 2: Okay, that's at the end of Wrath of Khan. It's 48 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 2: at the end of it when Kirk says more sure, 49 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 2: you know, playing the bagpipes. He got Scotty doing it. 50 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 2: They're playing the bagpipes, you know, you go, yeah, and. 51 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: They blast him off, you know, into this thing you 52 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: know that begins to orbit this planet. That's what this 53 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: thing looked like to me. It did at least suicide capsule. Okay, yeah, 54 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: And so it's it's kind of kind of bizarre. And 55 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 1: I don't know, are this I have to ask, are 56 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: those people quitting on life? Is that? Is that what 57 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: it is? And I know that that's controversial. You know, 58 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: people have a choice. Where Crusius a free will, you 59 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: can do what you want with your life. But I 60 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: look at at the topic today, I hate to say 61 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: topic that's so cold, but this this woman who has 62 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,559 Speaker 1: arguably led a very very full life and it comes 63 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: to an end apparently on the floor of a care 64 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: home at the hands of family members. 65 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 2: Maybe maybe maybe because again you mentioned it, and I'm 66 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 2: glad you did. You said the alleged. Okay, here's what 67 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 2: we have. Well, we have Cleo Lusidis, who is eighty 68 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 2: one years old. She's in It isn't necessarily called a 69 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 2: nursing home anymore. You know that you mentioned care facility. 70 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 2: The thing is, it's like the waiting room for heaven. 71 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 2: That's pretty much where we are when you've got people 72 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 2: in this home. But it is an assisted care because 73 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 2: Cleo Luzitas was seen around five o'clock that afternoon. She 74 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 2: was walking in the hallway with grabbing something to eat 75 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 2: and was heading back to her room. So she's up 76 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 2: taking care of herself, doing her own thing. A couple 77 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 2: hours later, as they're you know, just before midnight, checking 78 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 2: the rooms, and orderly goes into the room and finds 79 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 2: Cleo cold to the touch and a bit rigid. So 80 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 2: you've got a four and a half five hour, six 81 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 2: hour period of time here that we're dealing with where 82 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 2: something happened. When somebody dies in a care facility like this, 83 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 2: do they call the police, do they call ems? Who 84 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 2: do they call? Because it ain't Ghostbusters. 85 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: I'm just curious yes, it's variable, depended upon what the 86 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: law requires in any particular state. And kind of let 87 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: me break it down just little latitude here, because it's 88 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 1: kind of interesting. Most people don't understand this. Well. 89 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 2: People are cold and stiff when they die, right, And 90 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 2: that was I mean after I die. If I was 91 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 2: to die right here today, in this room while we're 92 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 2: doing the show, I pass away and nobody finds me 93 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,919 Speaker 2: for two hours. By the time two hours is up, 94 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 2: I'm going to be stiff. Right, Yes, some rigidity would 95 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 2: begin to present and I would be a bit I 96 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 2: would be room temperature. I would not be warm, You 97 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 2: would be cooler. 98 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: You would not have attained room temperature by that time. 99 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 1: That would take about twelve hours, okay, for every bit 100 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: of the energy to bleed off of your body. When 101 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: I say bleed, I'm not talking about blood flow. I'm 102 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 1: talking about just bleeding off that internalized heat that has 103 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 1: been created in life. But here's the problem in care facilities. 104 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: And I noticed, I noticed how they've softened these terms. 105 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 1: It's like everything else in life. This is like a 106 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 1: care facility. They don't use the term nursing home. When 107 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 1: I was a kid, they still use the term retirement 108 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: home that you had retirement home nursing home. Nursing home 109 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: implies that you're in need of care constantly, and many 110 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: people are that show up. But now the way they 111 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: have these things structured is that if you'll imagine a 112 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: model of a molecule where you have the core the nucleus. 113 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: You might have that nucleus within that environment that requires 114 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: some type of intensive monitoring, not intensive care. But you 115 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: might have people that have dementia, they'll have a separate 116 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: dementia wing. They'll have people that have major medical problems 117 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: like kidney failure, all those sorts of things. They're not 118 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: going to be hospitalized, They're going to go to a 119 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: care facility. And extending out from that, it goes all 120 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: the way from where you're still doing bed checks to 121 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: people that actually have these condominium like structures on the 122 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: property that are just merely adjacent to the more intensive areas. 123 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: So it's almost like a big this ring within a 124 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: ring within a ring, into a couple of these over 125 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 1: the years. 126 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 2: Okay, so basically you would have those who are very 127 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 2: self sufficient but living in an area where they can 128 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 2: be a part of life with other people checking on 129 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 2: them and still cooking for themselves and taking care of 130 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 2: their area. 131 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: And the way literally they haven't had the keys. The 132 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: key's taken away from them, right. I mean, you still 133 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: have folks that live in these places that still have 134 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: their car, They go to church, they go to the 135 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: grocery store and all of that stuff. But there's people 136 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:48,959 Speaker 1: there in case they need something. 137 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 2: Right, okay. And he goes from that all the way 138 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 2: down to somebody who actually is getting a lot of 139 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:54,959 Speaker 2: care during the day exactly. 140 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: So it's not one size fits all, and I think 141 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: the skill level of the people that work there is 142 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 1: going to be variable because you're not going to have 143 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: if you've got somebody that's got like some kind of 144 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,839 Speaker 1: I hate say terminal illness, because I don't know that 145 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 1: that hospice would attend to them in this environment where 146 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 1: they're providing what's called palliative care for folks that don't 147 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: know what palliative care is. That's like, that's the end 148 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: of life care. They're just trying to make You've heard 149 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: people say we just want to make them comfortable, and 150 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: that means that they apply meds to them and all 151 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: these sorts of things. But yeah, it is you know, 152 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: the old term God's waiting room. It's one of those 153 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: places where you try to live out a life where 154 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: you can't necessarily do everything that you want to do. Hey, 155 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 1: some people choose to go there because within their circle, 156 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 1: within their age group, they don't they're diminished, they don't 157 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: have a lot of interaction, and they say that, you know, 158 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: if you can continue interaction with other people, that extends 159 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: your life. It extends your brain, health, all that stuff. 160 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: So if you want to play cards or hang out 161 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: do needle point with people that are your age I mean, 162 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: I can tell you at this point in my life, 163 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: I love my college students, but I ain't got nothing 164 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: in common at all other than we're occupying the same space. 165 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: You know, if we're going to talk about our music, 166 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: you know, the music that I love and that you love, 167 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: you know, they're not really going to get it, you know, 168 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. And sometimes it can come down 169 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: to that. But in a case like this, she's what 170 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 1: is referred to as amulatory because you said something key 171 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: just a second ago that she had gotten up and 172 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: was walking the halls. But you know, back to your 173 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: other point about what's reportable and what's not, you know, 174 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: when and This is kind of an interesting story. When 175 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: I first started as an investigator with a corner's office, 176 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: and this happened to me twice. Nursing home desks were 177 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: not reportable to the corner. These people would die. The 178 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: death was kind of expected. They were under the director. 179 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: Because if this is the thing about it, and this 180 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: always kind of bothers me, they claim that if you 181 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: are a resident of a nursing facility, that you are 182 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: constantly being seen by a physician. That's untrue. They have 183 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: nurses there, and they have what's referred to most of 184 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: the time as a medical director, and they're the doctor, 185 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 1: and that doctor will sign the death certificate. But they're 186 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: not going to have like necessarily intimate knowledge. They're not 187 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: going to be doing an exam on this person every 188 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:45,839 Speaker 1: single day, and so they'll have to sign the death certificate. 189 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 1: Do they know enough about the medical history to sign it? Well, 190 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 1: they have the medical history, and they can they can 191 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 1: put out an idea that, yeah, it's probably cardiac arrest. Everybody, 192 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: by the way, dies with kardiac arrest, even if you 193 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,959 Speaker 1: get your head cut off. It's kind of a weasel 194 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: thing to say on a death certificate. I've always had 195 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 1: a problem with that. But you go from that and 196 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,679 Speaker 1: there's some kind of underlying disease, and that person would 197 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 1: be task was signing the death certificate. But it doesn't 198 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 1: mean that the corner is going to be is going 199 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 1: to be notified. This is when it changed. When I 200 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 1: was in New Orleans, even in the late eighties early nineties, 201 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,559 Speaker 1: we started seeing cases of elder abuse. Oh okay, and 202 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:37,679 Speaker 1: these cases were not reported and so and the abuse 203 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: could come from staff members, it could come from neglect 204 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,319 Speaker 1: by staff members, or it could come from family members. 205 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: And all of a sudden, the corner put out a 206 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: mandate that these cases from now on, every nursing home 207 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: death will be reported to the corner. They have to 208 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: call us and we can make a decision at that 209 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: time for we're going to roll out and take a 210 00:12:57,280 --> 00:12:59,959 Speaker 1: look at the body. Now, that can get a bit tedious, 211 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: particularly if you've only got staff of three investigators and 212 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: you've got all these other cases. Well, that happened, and 213 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,079 Speaker 1: I'd be doggone. The same thing happened to me in Atlanta. 214 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 1: When I got to Atlanta, to the medical examiner, nursing 215 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 1: home cases were not reportable. They weren't neither are hospice cases. 216 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: By the way, hospice nurse handles everything, and God bless 217 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: those people. I don't know how they do that job, 218 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 1: but they do. In home care, palliative care, like I mentioned, 219 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:35,319 Speaker 1: but we started seeing a spike in elder abuse, and 220 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 1: so the medical examiner said, Okay, from now on, all 221 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 1: these nursing home desks, they're going to be reported to Theme. 222 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 1: The problem is is that logistically it becomes a real lift. 223 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 1: It becomes a real lift for the staff of Theme. 224 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,079 Speaker 1: It becomes a real lift to if you want to 225 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: go out and visit the scene, because you're disrupting the 226 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: environment out there and you have an expectation that people 227 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 1: are going to die. Dave, do you know who winds 228 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: up reporting this is gonna blow you away what I'm 229 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: about to say. You know who winds up reporting to 230 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: the medical examiner or corner many times with these care 231 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: facility deaths. Who actually brings it to our attention? Funeral 232 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 1: directors because they will get the body, they pick it up, 233 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: and then they put the body on the table at 234 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: the funeral home and getting ready to prep and all 235 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: of a sudden, the funeral director slash mortician, I never 236 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: can't tell what they prefer to be called. But they're 237 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 1: prepping the body and all of a sudden they look 238 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: at the body and they're like, oh my gosh, this 239 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: this is horrible. I've got bruises all over the body. 240 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: I've got you know, marks on the neck. And it 241 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: reminds me. You know, it's hard to delineate that. You 242 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: know Nor McDonald who passed away way, I guess it 243 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: was last year or two years, I can't remember. The 244 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: comedian he's I'm watching the program that Jerry Seinfeld had, 245 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: you know, the riding and car media. Yeah, And Norm 246 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: McDonald tells the story of his grandmother and he says 247 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: he went, he went to visit his grandma, and he 248 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: said that grandma had had a bruise from her wrist 249 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 1: all the way up to her shoulder. It was purple. 250 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: And Jerry's mouth is like wide open, and he says 251 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: what happened? And Norm McDonald, in typical Norm McDonald fashion, 252 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: looks at him and says, Grandma, I asked her, I said, 253 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: how did you get that bruise? And she said the wind. 254 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: And so, you know, there are certain manifestations on the 255 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: elderly's body that we you know, you expect bruise easily. 256 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: You can braid skin. It peels back. Really, the skin 257 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: is dehydrated. It's like parchment. So I don't know. 258 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 2: I think my mother in law was, oh, yes, yeah, 259 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 2: when you said it, I didn't realize that was a thing. 260 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 2: But when as she got older, you know that her 261 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 2: skin did. It was very thin. It seemed very thin, 262 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 2: and it would peel back like she would have a 263 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 2: little scratch, but it would like push the skin, and yeah, it. 264 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: Does, and those things can get affected. And the thing 265 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 1: about it is the skin itself has it's got almost 266 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 1: a translucent quiet to it, as opposed to because you know, 267 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: you're losing as we get older, we actually lose that 268 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: layer of fat that's very important for us. You know, 269 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: you're you're greatly diminished. Your nutrition is changing, your nutritional 270 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: change needs are changing, and so it's hard to say, look, 271 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 1: we can't fight. You cannot fight time. You can buy 272 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: things off a TV and they're going to tell you, 273 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: you know that this is going to add or you know, 274 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: another minute to your life. But I mean, let's face it. 275 00:16:55,680 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: Keith Richards is still alive and Richard Simmons is now deceased. 276 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 1: Just keep that in mind. So not all one size 277 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,120 Speaker 1: does not fit all, and we're eventually going to succumb. 278 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: But in this particular case, there's more to this and 279 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: it's something that is going to require more of a 280 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: forensic eye on it to get the clarity that's required. Davey, 281 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 1: you know, you know, when we cover cases of child abuse, 282 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 1: it just I'm speaking for myself. I know I can 283 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: pretty much testify that it happens with you as well. 284 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: Our blood boils and to a man, with these cases, 285 00:17:56,080 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: it's infuriating. You feel helpless. I've always said, you know, 286 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: with Kim and ized like, don't kill a child, just 287 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: bring them to my home and no questions, I ask, 288 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,679 Speaker 1: We'll find a place for them. You know, don't destroy 289 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:17,439 Speaker 1: a child. But you know, something that doesn't get a 290 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 1: lot of attention out there, Dave, is elder abuse. And 291 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: it does happen. I mean, and I've worked cases and 292 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: it is some of the most horrific stuff that goes 293 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 1: on that really kind of flies under the radar. And 294 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: I'm really wondering about I think I'm wondering about the 295 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: familial history with this case, because that's something that we 296 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:43,400 Speaker 1: would really dig into as investigators in a case like this, Dave. 297 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 2: The shocking part about all of this story is the family. 298 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 2: And when we have a story, oftentimes I look at 299 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 2: the biography, another biograph, the obituary. I want to know 300 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 2: more about the person we're talking about, because when you 301 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 2: and you deal with the crimes, murders and things like that, 302 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 2: after a while, it becomes a story. And it's not 303 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 2: a story, it's a person, and it's a person that 304 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 2: people cared about in love who is no longer here 305 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:18,199 Speaker 2: because of someone else. And in this particular case, looking 306 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 2: at the life of eighty one year old Cleio Losita's 307 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 2: she had a career at a time when women didn't 308 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 2: usually do careers in that age group. Again, she's eighty one, 309 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 2: so at her death and I was looking at where 310 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 2: she was a model in the sixties and she went 311 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 2: into banking. She was spending her time in North Carolina, 312 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 2: eastern North Carolina, more than anything else, and it was 313 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 2: where she met her husband that caught my attention, Joe, 314 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 2: because yeah, because again, being a model in the sixties 315 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 2: is an interesting thing because of the women's movement that began. Remember, 316 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 2: there was a time in the late sixties and early 317 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:00,199 Speaker 2: seventies where it was almost like, don't wear makeup, you know, 318 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 2: don't be a You're not a you're you're a woman, 319 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 2: You're a person, You're not a thing. You're not a 320 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 2: playtoy or whatever. Anyway, right right, And she was she 321 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 2: was her own person, knowing modeling in the sixties and 322 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 2: then going into banking in the seventies. And she met 323 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 2: her husband as a volunteer at a community theater, so 324 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 2: she has some performance thing going on there, you know. 325 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 2: The Yeah, and that's where I attached the modeling career. 326 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 2: Now you're in community theater, which is where she meets 327 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 2: her future husband, and he also is volunteering, and he 328 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 2: worked at a TV station. So they were like, when 329 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:38,199 Speaker 2: you actually look behind you. 330 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: In the Norfolk area, Yeah, it's. 331 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 2: In eastern North Carolina and you got to okay, eastern 332 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 2: North Carolina and Virginia. When you go from Norfolk Newport News, 333 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 2: you know, you got a huge military based, huge navy 334 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 2: based and Norfilk, Newport News all of that area. And 335 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:55,719 Speaker 2: then as you come down the coast a little bit 336 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 2: in eastern North Carolina like Elizabeth City, and then you 337 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 2: go into the outer Banks, I kind of look at 338 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 2: all that geography as the same general vicinity, and there's 339 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 2: a lot of it. So yeah, that's it appears that 340 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 2: that's where she spent a lot of her time. That's 341 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 2: where because her husband worked in the TV station in Norfolk. Okay, anyway, 342 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 2: so she has a daughter and it's again a normal life, 343 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 2: a very normal life. When her husband passes away, they're 344 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 2: doing okay, obviously, I say obviously, but I guess maybe 345 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 2: it's not obvious. But you know, she goes into this 346 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 2: care of this facility, and I don't know why she 347 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,640 Speaker 2: ended up there, okay, at this care facility, except that 348 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 2: her daughter lived in India, had moved away and was 349 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:47,360 Speaker 2: living in Indiana. Her husband passes away, and so she 350 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 2: doesn't really have you know, blood family there, right, Yeah, 351 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 2: And all I could think of was maybe and because 352 00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 2: she was active in her early eighties. And I only 353 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 2: note that because of her last day on Earth, where 354 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,679 Speaker 2: she was, you know, walking the hallways and getting her 355 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,439 Speaker 2: own food and stuff. That's the only sign we have 356 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,199 Speaker 2: of how active she was, because if she was not active, 357 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 2: if her health was not good, the remark wouldn't be 358 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 2: she was walking in the hallway and getting something to eat. 359 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, I got to tell you I thought about the 360 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:25,439 Speaker 1: same thing. Let's just say that she she had some 361 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: form of dementia, okay, where she wasn't aware of her surroundings. 362 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: This sort of thing if people are under that kind 363 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: of care, which you know I mentioned about these you know, 364 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 1: communities like this, and how it's kind of you know, 365 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 1: there's these inner shells and outer shells and that sort 366 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: of thing. They're not going to allow her to walk 367 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,199 Speaker 1: in a food line. That was going to ask you 368 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 1: about that period. Yeah, because you know, you have to 369 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: be kind of guided. You have this cognitive decline that's 370 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: going on, and you can't necessarily make choices as well. 371 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: And can you imagine, if you know, if you want 372 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: to get a cup of coffee and you have dementia 373 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: and you're gonna pick up a hot coffee pot and 374 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: pour you a cup of coffee, things that we take 375 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: for granted every day. And yeah, so it speaks a 376 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: lot that she had still had. She was ambulatory, she's walking, 377 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:21,919 Speaker 1: She apparently has some level of cognition here. So the 378 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 1: reason this is so important is that she's not diminished 379 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 1: to the point where maybe you're gonna, you know, put 380 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 1: her in a suicide capsule, you know, like I mentioned 381 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 1: at the top endoor, or choose to give her palliative 382 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: care like she was in hospice or something. That's not 383 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: That's not what is going on with her. She's viable 384 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: and I think that's very important to remember here, Dave. 385 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 2: And I was looking at the home that she was 386 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 2: saying that it's called Commonwealth Senior Living at Lee Hall. 387 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 2: That's where she was living. This is a beautiful home. 388 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 2: Beautiful and I mean like a house, not a rest home, 389 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 2: not nursing home. It is active, very active actually, you know, 390 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 2: they have all kinds of It's what you explained earlier. 391 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 2: I in my head when we first started this story 392 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 2: Joe a couple of days ago, looking at it, I 393 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 2: thought maybe it was one of those places that was 394 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 2: kind of like a hospital on decline where they had 395 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 2: the big nursing beds and you know when an individual 396 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,479 Speaker 2: did get out of their bed to do something, it 397 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 2: was to use a walker or a wheelchair to be 398 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,439 Speaker 2: guided down the hallway. That's what I was thinking. I 399 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 2: wasn't thinking about it being a vibrant community of people 400 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 2: that are elderly, that are you know, being together and 401 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 2: it's not like I'm waiting to die. It's like I'm 402 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 2: living my life. This is the next chapter. And that's 403 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 2: what this place is. It is about living a comfortable 404 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 2: life surrounded by friends. And I thought this is kind 405 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 2: of a cool I'm looking at it, going all right, 406 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 2: what's the earliest age I can get in there? And 407 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 2: it's looking pretty nice. Actually, yeah, I know. 408 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: And again that goes back to mental stimulation, and by extension, 409 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 1: that goes into into your quality of life moving forward, 410 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 1: because if you are mentally stimulated to the point where 411 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 1: you can still walk, you know, there's the old adage 412 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:28,360 Speaker 1: about what is it, eat, crap, move, and those three things. 413 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 1: If you can do that, then that that's going to 414 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: assure if you can continue to do those things throughout 415 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: your life, that simple formula is going to help you. 416 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: And you know, if you can do that, then you 417 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: still remain viable. But I have a hard time trying 418 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 1: to understand how she dies in this care facility, being 419 00:25:54,240 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: found by a staff member and we're talking stiff, cold 420 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 1: to the touch, right, and this is you know, and 421 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 1: how how this escalated now into a homicide investigation day. 422 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 2: If I die of natural causes like I just lay 423 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 2: in the bed and I go to sleep and don't 424 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,679 Speaker 2: wake up and I passed in there. How long is 425 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 2: it before my body is cold to the touch and 426 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:22,399 Speaker 2: I'm becoming rigid? 427 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 1: Good question? Uh, And here's here's a question back at you, uh, 428 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: and to our friends as well, if you've ever touched 429 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 1: a dead body. You know, people we use the term 430 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: cool to the touch or cold to the touch. We 431 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:45,120 Speaker 1: can think about things. We can think about things like, say, 432 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 1: for instance, that are cold and maybe something that comes 433 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 1: out of our refrigerator or it's cold outside during the 434 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 1: colder parts of the and you touch something, you understand 435 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,400 Speaker 1: that that's cold. But Dave, there is some there's some element. 436 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: For me, it's always been this way that the coolness 437 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: of death is unlike any other kind of coolness. And you, 438 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,719 Speaker 1: I think that it's the tactile nature of touching a body. 439 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: And you get because normally even with our grandparents, you know, 440 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 1: grandparents in my in my case, you know, I had 441 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: grandparents that were always going and a lot of grandparents 442 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 1: do this that complain of being cold all the time. 443 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: You know, they've got poor circulation. Yeah, yeah, it's so 444 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: cold in here. Let's you know, jack the furnace up 445 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: to one hundred and fifty plus hell and your sweating Grandma, 446 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:38,439 Speaker 1: I can't take it anymore. But there's that sensitivity with 447 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 1: that that you know you come to and when you 448 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: touch the dead, that coolness feels different than any other 449 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 1: kind of coolness. So how long does that take? Well, 450 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 1: for if you think about it this way, for every 451 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 1: hour after death, well, the first hour, and people, you 452 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: know kind of they vary on this. They say that 453 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:03,679 Speaker 1: you will lose one point five to two degrees of 454 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 1: body temperature for the first hour, and then after that 455 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: first hour you're going to bleed off one degree one 456 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 1: degree until the twelfth hour. And it's at the twelfth 457 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,199 Speaker 1: hour you assume what they say is room temperature. So 458 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 1: just to touch somebody our sensibilities as as people, you 459 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: have an expectation when you touch a human body that 460 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: the body will have some kind of indwelling warmth, there'll 461 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 1: be some animation there, it will feel, it will feel alive. 462 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: And so when you touch a body as you almost 463 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: want to retract from it, I think. But it's a 464 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: measure that we use now, you know, granted, cool to 465 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: the touch culture, the touch is not a numerical measure, right, 466 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: and it's hard. Body temperature is one of the hardest 467 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: things to measure. It's unreliable, first off, because it's dictated 468 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,040 Speaker 1: by the environment and also internally what's going on with the person. 469 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: If a person has a fever, for instance, you can 470 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: throw all of that data out of the window. If 471 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: somebody has done drugs where they've got like, uh, you know, 472 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: something like that in their own meth or coke or 473 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: something like that, it's got their metabolism jacked up. It's 474 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: not going to apply. So that's that's the thing. But 475 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: they're saying that she had rigidity, that's something all all 476 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: together different. Okay, that means that she has developed some stiffness. 477 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: Now where was the stiffness it If it had extended 478 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: out to like her elbows, and I'm not thinking it 479 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: would be fully fixed, but if they were hard to move, 480 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: then you're talking about a pretty significant gap in time here, 481 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: maybe maybe three to four hours. Hard to say, but 482 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: this is my question. When the orderly found her, h 483 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: and do they take notes? You know, one of the 484 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: things that happens if you're in a hospital, you know, 485 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: and Lord help anybody that's in a hospital right now. 486 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 1: I hate being in hospitals, and the nurses always come 487 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: to visit, and they come into most inopportune times. They're 488 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 1: doing their job, but you know, they're taking nursing notes 489 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: and they go back to the station and they're going 490 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: to get on their CPU and they're going to sit 491 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: there and they're going to type in all of this 492 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: data about you every time they go into the room temperature, 493 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: movement responsiveness and guess what all that stuff is annitated 494 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 1: with tom markers in this facility. Would they have that, 495 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: because that's going to give us a clue as to 496 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 1: when she was actually last seen. My understanding is is 497 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: that her daughter and her grandson had actually come to 498 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 1: visit her in the house prior to that. That's correct, right, right, 499 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: That is correctly, dude. Let me tell you something, most 500 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: of the time, i'm once, I hit, once I hit 501 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,479 Speaker 1: about nine pm, I'm heading to the bed. At this 502 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: point in my life, I really am. They didn't check, 503 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: they didn't find her until like eleven or eleven thirty years. 504 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 2: It was almost twelve o'clock. 505 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: Almost midnight, and I've got a figure that at eighty one, 506 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: you're wanting to you want to make your way to 507 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 1: your comfortable space, get your favorite blanket, lay down in 508 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 1: the bed, and drift off into sleep if you if 509 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: you can. And I'm wondering when was the last time 510 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: the staff actually saw her, because that's going to be key. 511 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: And is there is there videography let's go with that 512 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 1: of the daughter and the grandson coming down the hallway 513 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: and then exiting and how long did it take them 514 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: to get out of there? And I guarantee you dave 515 00:31:48,200 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 1: that the authorities are all over that information. It's kind 516 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 1: of interesting to me if this had been an actual 517 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: nurse that had found the body, and remember we're talking cold, cold, 518 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: and rigid, a nurse probably would not have I don't 519 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 1: know if there are no signs of life, you know, 520 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: the nurses walking around the steth scope and that's where 521 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: things checking for vitals and all of that, right, but there, 522 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 1: I think she was found on the floor though, which 523 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: they may have had their suspicions that she fell, right, 524 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 1: and if you fall, you've got all kinds of things 525 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: like impact injuries. And you know for the facility that's 526 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: there's a level there's a level of liability there too, 527 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: you know, because if somebody, yeah, I know, so you're 528 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 1: gonna need to call somebody, and that might be I 529 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: don't know this for a fact, but they might have 530 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 1: something in places, says Okay, if they're found anywhere other 531 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: than the bed, you've got to cool nine to one one, okay. 532 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: So the EMTs rolled well. 533 00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 2: Because you know she's not going to sleep on the 534 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 2: floor without a pill. 535 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: No, no, no. You're at this age you're going to 536 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: want a soft spot to lay down in. 537 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 2: Now. 538 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: You might not be completely comfortable, but you're going to 539 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: want someplace where you can rest your bones. And on 540 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: the floor in care facility is It's not at the 541 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: top of my list. I gotta tell you, Dave. 542 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 2: So she the police are called at eleven fifty pm 543 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 2: June thirtieth, and they found her unresponsive. She was pronounced 544 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 2: dead at the scene July first, which makes sense. I mean, yeah, 545 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 2: talking about crossing over into the next morning. Right now. 546 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 2: I don't know the entire investigation. We'll find out more. 547 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 2: But for those who people talk to investigators, you know, 548 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 2: if you're trying to get away with a crime, you 549 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 2: don't talk to police. And in this particular case, her 550 00:33:56,320 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 2: death was originally ruled as undetermined. I think for three 551 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 2: weeks tuesdays. Okay, yeah, And that's what I was going 552 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 2: to ask you, Joe, what does that actually mean? If 553 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,240 Speaker 2: you know, you find an eighty one year old woman 554 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 2: on the floor in a nursing home, unresponsive and dead undetermined, 555 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 2: what what are my opportunity Because before the classifications and time. 556 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,800 Speaker 1: You're peeking underneath the skirts. At this point, you've learned 557 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,799 Speaker 1: something here. And the reason the reason we would say 558 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: undetermined is because we've seen something at the scene and 559 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 1: we can't marry it up and make sense out of it. 560 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 1: The term that would be used, and I can tell 561 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:45,439 Speaker 1: you for batim, is that these circumstances are uh, let's see, 562 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,880 Speaker 1: inconsistent with a natural death. Is That's the way we 563 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: would frame that kind of intellectually, you know, if we're 564 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 1: if we're talking behind the doors at the medical Examiner's 565 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,479 Speaker 1: office in the morning meeting that and I can, I can, 566 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 1: I can and actually see this in my mind because 567 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: I've been in the spot before where you're sitting in 568 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,479 Speaker 1: a room a bunch of friends and pathologists and they've 569 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,399 Speaker 1: got the report from the Emmy investigator, which, by the way, 570 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,320 Speaker 1: Virginia has a state medical examiner, and they have state 571 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,360 Speaker 1: emmy investigators that kind of break the state down into regions. 572 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,280 Speaker 1: So if one of these people went out to the scene, 573 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,280 Speaker 1: if they were summoned out there, perhaps and they examined 574 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 1: her body at that particular time, they're thinking, hmm, I 575 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 1: don't know, or it could have gone down. Like I 576 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, you call the funeral home. Funeral home picks 577 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: her body up and takes her body back to the 578 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 1: funeral home and they look at it and they say, 579 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 1: oh boy, she's got marks on her right now that 580 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:54,759 Speaker 1: we don't understand, and so we need to kick this up. 581 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 1: And not as far as the investigation. Maybe there was 582 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 1: something missed at the scene. And here's the thing. This 583 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,759 Speaker 1: is why elder abuse and elder deaths like this fly 584 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: under the radar in a wy DAVE because with the 585 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,879 Speaker 1: aged there's an expectation of death. I mean, just let 586 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:15,799 Speaker 1: that sink in just for a second. And because we 587 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: put our blinders on intellectually, we don't try to work 588 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,319 Speaker 1: the problem. Most of the time. We just say there's 589 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: a working kind of a working assumption, whether people want 590 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 1: to admit to it or not. It's a damnable event. 591 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:36,800 Speaker 1: When you begin to hear that the daughter and the 592 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: grandson possibly allegedly had something to do with their death, 593 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: because Dave, they've they confessed, Joe, they did. And here's 594 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 1: the thing. They theme has stated that they have discovered 595 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: evidence of strangulation. 596 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,919 Speaker 2: And what evidence do you see with strangulation, Joe. 597 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,919 Speaker 1: Well, when you're talking about and it's funny that they're 598 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 1: using the term strangulation, I don't mean funny, ha ha. 599 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:12,320 Speaker 1: They're using the term strangulation as it could mean anything. 600 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: You know, when we think about somebody being strangled, most 601 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: of the time we think about applying hands to the throat. 602 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 1: That's not the case here, according to what has been 603 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:31,720 Speaker 1: confessed to Allegedly, at this point in time, Dave, her daughter, 604 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 1: had Cleo, her mother, her mama on the floor, held 605 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: her hands down her grandson. Cleo's grandson, took his bag 606 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,879 Speaker 1: and took the strap that was attached to his back 607 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:06,360 Speaker 1: and used it to strangle allegedly his grandmother to death. 608 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 1: And while this is going on, according to the police, 609 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 1: the daughter had their Cummings uttered these words to her mother, 610 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: just let go. It's for the best. 611 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 2: How long would it take to strangle the life out 612 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 2: of an eighty one year old woman. 613 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,200 Speaker 1: It's an interesting question, Dave, and I don't think that 614 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: it would take much. And the reason I say that 615 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:45,759 Speaker 1: is that you have two people facilitating this, and the 616 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 1: death itself probably would not take that long. I find 617 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:56,759 Speaker 1: it very interesting that the grandson who is alleged to 618 00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 1: have perpetrated this, did not show up with an actual 619 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,879 Speaker 1: ligature like a piece of rope. He used something that 620 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:09,920 Speaker 1: we refer to as a weapon of convenience, a book 621 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,319 Speaker 1: back strap. I mean, in everybody, look, if you've got 622 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: a book bag or some kind of bag that you carry, 623 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,920 Speaker 1: consider the strap. It has to be long enough to 624 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,799 Speaker 1: go around the neck. And I don't I have not 625 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: envisioned in my mind the action that went into this 626 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,080 Speaker 1: other than this. I had the idea that she was 627 00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:33,239 Speaker 1: probably soupine, which means face up on the floor. The 628 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 1: daughter held her hands. She's at the top of Grandma's head, 629 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 1: of Cleo's head, holding her wrists down like this, staring 630 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:48,839 Speaker 1: down into Cleo's eyes. And the grandson very well may 631 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:53,360 Speaker 1: have positioned himself across Grandma's chest with the strap. I 632 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 1: might not have actually wrapped it around her neck, but 633 00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,279 Speaker 1: one of the things that we would be looking at 634 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,719 Speaker 1: at the more. If this is a strap, this is 635 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,040 Speaker 1: different than like using a rope. If this is a strap, 636 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:09,200 Speaker 1: a strap is going to be very textured and it 637 00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:12,839 Speaker 1: will have almost a cross hatching appearance to it, and 638 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 1: that's going to leave a mirrored image of an a braik. 639 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 1: It'll be an abraided area and it'll you can actually 640 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,320 Speaker 1: see this, Dave, you can actually if enough force is applied. 641 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:24,560 Speaker 1: And remember what we talked about with the elderly. Their 642 00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 1: skin is very fragile, isn't it, And so you would 643 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:32,759 Speaker 1: see this mark almost this this cross hatching mark that 644 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,280 Speaker 1: you'll see that's in the pattern of a woven strap, 645 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,640 Speaker 1: that will transfer onto her neck and there'll be little 646 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,719 Speaker 1: petiki hemorrhages that are all around that area as well, 647 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:48,360 Speaker 1: because the vessels are bursting because of the pressure, the 648 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,239 Speaker 1: in dwelling pressure that's around there. Not to mention, her 649 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,239 Speaker 1: head would probably take on a purple color and she 650 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,600 Speaker 1: would have a tikia in her eyes. It's a horrible 651 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 1: thing to try to but I hope that they are 652 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,920 Speaker 1: doing their due diligence to understand the mechanism of her 653 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:07,600 Speaker 1: death and how this came about. Because I got to 654 00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:12,479 Speaker 1: tell you, Dave, This is a brutal, brutal way to die. 655 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 1: And you know, we talk about in life, we talk 656 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:19,640 Speaker 1: about who deserves what this lady certainly Cleo did not 657 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 1: deserve to die like this. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and 658 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:27,400 Speaker 1: this is Body Bodies