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Speaker 1: Welcome back, dear friends and dearest enemies. This is Behind

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Speaker 1: the Bastards, a podcast about the very worst people in

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Speaker 1: all of history, with one of the very best people

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Speaker 1: in all of history as my guest this week, Margaret Killjoy. Margaret,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to the program. How are you feeling about

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Speaker 1: Martin Niemöller?

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Speaker 2: I am, uh, I knew he was going to start

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Speaker 2: off bad, but I had him as, like, You know,

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Speaker 2: he's a pastor. He's kind of conservative. He's kind of

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Speaker 2: like a spineless, yeah. Because, like, I did some episodes about,

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Speaker 2: I should remember this guy's name, the saint who sacrificed

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Speaker 2: himself in a concentration camp so that someone else could live.

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Speaker 2: I literally can't remember his name.

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Speaker 1: Oh, geez, yeah, I know who you're talking about.

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Speaker 2: I think it's Colby. And he started off more on

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Speaker 2: the fascist side of things than the anti-fascist side of things.

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Speaker 2: But I don't think he started off like this. And

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Speaker 2: so I was thinking at the beginning, I was like,

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Speaker 2: I basically run an episode on sort of this guy.

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Speaker 2: And I'm like, No.

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Speaker 1: No, I haven't. Not with the murdering, drowning sailors in

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Speaker 1: the ocean.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Sinking hospital ships left and right stuff. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Bad enough that your biographer has to put obviously fake

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Speaker 2: words in your mouth. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And that 1959 book by Clarissa Godsman is so fawning.

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Speaker 1: And it was written when he was alive. So she's

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Speaker 1: talking to him. I think he didn't want to admit

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Speaker 1: to this nice young journalist lady that he'd just been

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Speaker 1: murdering drowning boys. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't me. I got lucky. I'm on this side

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Speaker 2: of it. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Martin Niemöller ended World War I as one of the

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Speaker 1: most decorated sailors in the German fleet, his prestige enhanced

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Speaker 1: by the fact that the German Navy had little enough

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Speaker 1: to brag about at the war's end besides its sub-crews.

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Speaker 1: He'd gotten engaged to be married in 1917, and one

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Speaker 1: might have thought even the sting of losing the war

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Speaker 1: would be mitigated by the chance to start a family

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Speaker 1: and lead a normal life again. But Martin's not that

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Speaker 1: kind of nationalist.

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Speaker 2: He is a fanatic.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he is a fanatic. One part of the armistice

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Speaker 1: deal was that the great German high seas fleet, which

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Speaker 1: had so helped precipitate the conflict, would be interned at

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Speaker 1: Scapa Flow under the watchful guns of the British Navy.

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Speaker 1: No one could agree quite on what should be done

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Speaker 1: with it. The British wanted some of those boats, you know,

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Speaker 1: but that was not something they came to an accord on.

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Speaker 1: But the submarine fleet was ordered to be handed over

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Speaker 1: post haste because— They were really angry at the U-boats,

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Speaker 1: and they wanted them, right? Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. Martin

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Speaker 1: was ordered to take two U-boats to England. He refused,

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Speaker 1: and his reply became famous as a symbol of German

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Speaker 1: post-war defiance. And this is how it's described in God's Man.

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Speaker 2: First they came for the submarines.

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Speaker 1: First they came for the submarines, and I said, absolutely not.

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Speaker 1: I'll defend those more than any person. I have sailed

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Speaker 1: in submarines for three years, fighting against England, sir, he

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Speaker 1: told his commodore. I have neither sought nor concluded this armistice.

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Speaker 1: And as far as I am concerned, the people who

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Speaker 1: promised our submarines to England can take them over. I

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Speaker 1: will not do it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, man.

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Speaker 1: Mr. Hospital Killer here, getting real, getting pissy about handing

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Speaker 1: over his stupid boat.

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Speaker 2: It's a good thing they didn't have the nuclear submarine

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Speaker 2: or he just would have been like, goodbye.

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Speaker 1: Bye.

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Speaker 2: I'm hanging out underwater. I'm going Nemo.

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Speaker 1: I'll just live underwater forever.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: He resigned his commission. The matter would be wound up

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Speaker 1: being moot anyway. The German fleet scuttled itself rather than

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Speaker 1: fall into English hands. But nonetheless, Martin became a minor celebrity,

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Speaker 1: particularly on the German right for his actions. In 1919,

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Speaker 1: he gets married and begins working as a farmer, and

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Speaker 1: he briefly entertains dreams of starting a farm of his own.

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Speaker 1: but rapidly rising inflation makes that an impossibility. One Sunday,

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Speaker 1: while at church pondering, my people and my home, he

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Speaker 1: decided to become a pastor. In his Nazi-era autobiography, From

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Speaker 1: U-Boat to Pulpit, Martin would claim that working the soil

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Speaker 1: had drawn him closer to his Volk. It's hard to

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Speaker 1: say what actually happened here. The war had ended in

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Speaker 1: Germany with a socialist revolution that actually starts as a

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Speaker 1: naval mutiny. And this leads by hook and crook to

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Speaker 1: the establishment of a democratic republic, the Kaiser's abdication and

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Speaker 1: the end of the war. Martin blames the socialists, particularly

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Speaker 1: Friedrich Ebert, for German defeat. And in doing so, he

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Speaker 1: adopted the stabbed in the back myth with gusto. He

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Speaker 1: never questions this for a moment. He sympathizes because right

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Speaker 1: after this happens, you've got this wing of left wing

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Speaker 1: revolutions that leads to the Weimar government. But then the

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Speaker 1: revolutions keep coming. And so you also get these Freikorps units,

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Speaker 1: these right-wing militias of German veterans that rise up and

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Speaker 1: kind of wind up in this period of time in

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Speaker 1: an awkward alliance with the Weimar government because the government

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Speaker 1: needs them to crush this leftist uprising called the Spartacists, right?

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Speaker 1: You know all of the basics of this, right? And

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Speaker 1: Martin is super on board with the Freikorps. He considers

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Speaker 1: joining at this point to crush the Spartacists, but he

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Speaker 1: doesn't right now, right? He doesn't now.

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Speaker 2: This is like AOC joining the Trump administration to crush

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Speaker 2: the PSL.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Well, if she'd had like a military background,

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Speaker 1: I guess. It's really messy. German post-war history is very

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Speaker 1: messy and complicated, right? In the book, Then They Came

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Speaker 1: for Me, Hockenos seems to attribute Martin's failure to join

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Speaker 1: the Freikorps at this point to his belief that serving

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Speaker 1: as a pastor would better allow him to participate in

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Speaker 1: the revival of the German nation. Quote, he joined the

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Speaker 1: ranks of the Lutheran Church for the same reason he

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Speaker 1: had joined the Imperial German Navy, to advance the cause

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Speaker 1: of the fatherland. But history had other plans for him.

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Speaker 1: Niemöller starts school to get his theology degree in January

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Speaker 1: of 1920. His wife Elsie is pregnant and near delivery

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Speaker 1: at this point in time. But right as he's about,

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Speaker 1: as he's expecting his first child, General Walter von Lütwitz,

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Speaker 1: the so-called father of the Freikorps, leads another coup against

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Speaker 1: the government, this one a right-wing coup against the Weimar government. And,

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Speaker 1: you know, the government had just used Lütwitz and his

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Speaker 1: Freikorps to suppress the Spartacists. But then afterwards, they're like, okay,

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Speaker 1: so you're going to disband your right-wing militia now, right?

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Speaker 1: And he's like, how about I do a putsch? And

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Speaker 1: so he launches this putsch, and they force the government

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Speaker 1: out of Berlin, and he makes a right-wing politician named

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Speaker 1: Wolfgang Kapp the head of state. This is the Kapp putsch.

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Speaker 1: And it doesn't work in the long run, right?

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Speaker 2: I don't know about the pre-Hitler putches.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of them. There's putches left and right

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Speaker 1: from the left and right in the immediate post-war period. Um,

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Speaker 1: the social Democrats have to flee Berlin and they call

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Speaker 1: a general strike. The whole left rises up and they

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Speaker 1: locks the country down entirely. So entirely that almost no

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Speaker 1: state functions are possible. The government cannot act.

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Speaker 2: Is this the early twenties?

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Speaker 1: This is 1919 still. Oh, we haven't even entered 1920.

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Speaker 1: It's 1919 to 1920, I think.

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Speaker 2: Okay. No, this is sorry.

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Speaker 1: This is January of 20. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Um, I still want to learn so much more about

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Speaker 2: late teens, early 20s Germany. So I'm excited to hear

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Speaker 2: about this.

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Speaker 1: It's the mess. And this is not, I'm not trying

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Speaker 1: to give a detailed history here, but Martin's very involved

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Speaker 1: in all this, right? So there's a general strike. The

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Speaker 1: government completely shuts down. And as a result, this both

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Speaker 1: will prove doom for the cap putsch because there's just

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Speaker 1: not a functioning state for them to govern. So they

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Speaker 1: have to kind of give up. That's not exactly what happens.

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Speaker 1: So the general strike actually, Oh, yeah. It stops the catpunch, right?

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Speaker 1: The general strike helps to stop the catpunch, right? And

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Speaker 1: it also provides opportunity for a communist uprising in the Ruhr.

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Speaker 1: And this group called the Red Ruhr Army, I think

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Speaker 1: is what they're called, assembles an army of like 50,000

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Speaker 1: people to create like a communist state in the industrial

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Speaker 1: heartland of Germany. Right. The very same day the CAP

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Speaker 1: putsch began, Niemöller and a bunch of student veterans at

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Speaker 1: their university formed what they called the Academic Defense Corps.

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Speaker 1: And this is a Freikorps militia for their school. But

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Speaker 1: they don't mobilize to defend the CAP government. That said,

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Speaker 1: once the putsch attempt was called off and the cap thing–

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Speaker 1: once they're like, OK, we lost. We're giving up Weimar.

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Speaker 1: You're the legitimate government. We got to do something about

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Speaker 1: this Red Ruhr army because they're actual communists as.

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Speaker 2: Opposed to– This isn't the Bavarian commune.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a separate one. The Ruhr is a

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Speaker 1: different area.

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Speaker 2: There's multiple. That one gives us B. Traven and the

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Speaker 2: treasurer of the Sierra Madres. Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it does. And someone else who we'll talk about

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Speaker 1: in these episodes, Margaret.

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Speaker 2: Oh, okay.

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Speaker 1: But this is the Red Ruhr Army and uprising. And basically,

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Speaker 1: so the right, like the right always does, like when

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Speaker 1: they feel like they're winning, just says anyone left of

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Speaker 1: us is a communist. But as soon as there's a

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Speaker 1: communist army in the Ruhr, they're like, oh, Weimar, no,

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Speaker 1: we can work with you guys. You're different from the communists, obviously.

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Speaker 1: What were we saying earlier?

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Speaker 2: No. No.

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Speaker 1: So at this point, the Academic Defense Corps is risen up,

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Speaker 1: and the Weimar government calls the Freikorps into action again

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Speaker 1: to crush this Red Ruhr army. Niemöller takes command of

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Speaker 1: one of the three battalions of the Academic Defense Corps.

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Speaker 1: They enter combat on April 1st. Yeah, he's a Freikorps veteran, right?

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Speaker 1: The guy who wrote First They Came is a Freikorps veteran.

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Speaker 1: He's like, first I came for the communists. First I

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Speaker 1: came for the communists with a gun.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I didn't say anything because I was shooting them

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Speaker 1: in the head while they were unarmed. Well, I'm getting

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Speaker 1: ahead of myself. They enter combat on April 1st, and

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Speaker 1: the Red Roar Army had mostly dissolved by the 5th.

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Speaker 1: They do not hold up for very long. Hockenos' book

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Speaker 1: gives a description of the kind of service Martin and

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Speaker 1: his comrades would have been engaged in. The right had

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Speaker 1: a policy of taking no prisoners. A student volunteer, Max Zeller,

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Speaker 1: wrote his parents, we shoot even the wounded. Anyone who

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Speaker 1: falls into our hands first gets the rifle butt and

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Speaker 1: then is finished off with a bullet. Estimates vary, but

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Speaker 1: approximately 1,000 communists were killed along with 200 to 300 rightists.

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Speaker 1: We were greeted as liberators from the hell of Bolshevism,

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Speaker 1: Niemöller maintained, although few industrial workers in the Ruhr saw

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Speaker 1: it that way.

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Speaker 2: They probably threw them into the water to pretend they're

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Speaker 2: drowning soldiers.

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Speaker 1: They probably threw them in the water. Yeah, yeah, he

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Speaker 1: loves that. And Martin never, I've read his autobiography. He

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Speaker 1: talks about this, but he doesn't talk directly about what

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Speaker 1: they did. He never admits to executing any prisoners or

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Speaker 1: unarmed people. He never admits to engaging in any specific violence.

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Speaker 1: But if you want to know, did Martin Niemöller execute

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Speaker 1: wounded and unarmed people during the Ruhr uprising? Think of

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Speaker 1: how he behaved to those drowning French soldiers. And I

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Speaker 1: think you might have your answer. I think Martin Niemöller

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Speaker 1: probably shot some unarmed people to death, right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: From this point on, Martin only grew more and more

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Speaker 1: involved in right-wing politics. As a monarchist to his bones,

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Speaker 1: he felt that ideally politics would not be necessary because

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Speaker 1: it would not be allowed. He was unable to see

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Speaker 1: that the monarchy had brought Germany all of its problems

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Speaker 1: and instead blamed the left, which is an insane read

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Speaker 1: of World War I. But it is the read all

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Speaker 1: these guys have of it, right? Like, we did everything.

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Speaker 1: We were in complete power and control. It was a disaster.

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Speaker 1: The fault of these Jewish communists who had to write

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Speaker 1: in when we starved the country to death to try

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Speaker 1: to rescue our few survivors from nightmare. Right. They're the

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Speaker 1: ones who fucked it up.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: In his book, Hitler's Personal Prisoner. Benjamin Zeman describes most

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Speaker 1: of the early 20s as a time of intense right-wing

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Speaker 1: radicalization for Martin. He joined the German Völkisch Protection and

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Speaker 1: Defiance Federation, arguably the first German fascist populist party, right?

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Speaker 1: This is the first, like, mass fascist party in Germany, debatably.

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Speaker 1: The DNVP was intensely anti-Semitic and considered Judaism and Bolshevism

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Speaker 1: to be synonyms. Martin also joined other right-wing parties and

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Speaker 1: organizations over the next years, while he worked as a

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Speaker 1: plate layer for the railroad company to make money as

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Speaker 1: he finished school. He made a point of bragging to

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Speaker 1: his wife, Elsa, whenever he encountered his co-workers because he's

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Speaker 1: very proud to briefly be a blue-collar man. That I

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Speaker 1: worked on the railroad like a real boat. It's like, Martin,

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Speaker 1: you're a nerdy pastor's son. Fuck off. Being in the

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Speaker 1: U-boat should be good enough for your blue-collar credentials. You

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Speaker 1: don't need to work at a railroad and brag about it.

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Speaker 1: But that's the hip thing in his subculture. In 1923,

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Speaker 1: after graduating, he opted not to take on his own

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Speaker 1: parish due to the disastrous economic conditions, and instead manages

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Speaker 1: to get a job as manager for a much larger church,

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Speaker 1: the Intermission of Westphalia. In this position, he managed all

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Speaker 1: church social welfare programs for the entire province. Martin was

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Speaker 1: delighted that this job paid enough to, Simon writes, secure

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Speaker 1: a bourgeoisie lifestyle for him and his family. So by 1923, 24,

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Speaker 1: they're like middle class again.

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Speaker 2: By running charities.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, by running charities. Yeah, that's how he's making his money.

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Speaker 1: By 1924, he's pushing 30 and a father of three.

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Speaker 1: His latest had been born just that January. He voted

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Speaker 1: first for the Nazis probably in this year. I don't 100% know. Zeman,

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Speaker 1: one of his biographers, the author of Hitler's Personal Prisoner,

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Speaker 1: says that he did not vote for the Nazis at

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Speaker 1: this point. But Hockenose's book reports that he voted for

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Speaker 1: the Nazis at least once before 1930, and several sources

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Speaker 1: I found say that he did so in 1924. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if that would have been the year, because

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Speaker 1: in his own autobiography, Martin writes almost nothing about the

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Speaker 1: Munich Putsch that had been carried out by the Nazis

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Speaker 1: around then. So he doesn't seem to be super involved

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Speaker 1: in the Nazis by 24, but certainly at some point

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Speaker 1: before 1930, he starts voting for the Nazis and does

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Speaker 1: so at least once. I can't exactly know when.

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Speaker 2: This is really relatable to me, not voting for the Nazis,

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Speaker 2: but you trying to figure out exactly which year and

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Speaker 2: which sources are true and not. Yeah. Because there's not

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Speaker 2: a lot of people who have the same job as me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: That's really just us. You're like... Getting really annoyed that

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Speaker 2: these sources don't agree with each other and needing to

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Speaker 2: figure out which seem more accurate so that you can

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Speaker 2: give the most. Anyway, it's a very charming thing.

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Speaker 1: It's frustrating, but yeah, I try. I don't know exactly,

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Speaker 1: but certainly he does seem to have voted for the

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Speaker 1: Nazis before 1930 at least once, right?

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Speaker 2: Which just makes complete sense with everything you're describing.

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Speaker 1: It's totally in line with him, right?

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Speaker 2: They're just the lesser evil, he probably said.

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Speaker 1: Well, no, actually, Margaret, we'll talk about what he said.

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Speaker 1: He's going to say a lot about what he thinks

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Speaker 1: about the Nazis. He was finally ordained as a pastor

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Speaker 1: this year, and his first act was to baptize his

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Speaker 1: new son, who he named for one of his dead comrades. However,

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Speaker 1: one could not call Martin a diligent father in this period.

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Speaker 1: As Zeman writes, Martin's immense workload and frequent periods of

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Speaker 1: absence were the reason for many marital conflicts with Elsa.

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Speaker 1: And in 1926 letter to him, she describes herself as

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Speaker 1: a grass widow, which I think means that like, you know,

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Speaker 1: a regular widow is a dirt widow. Cause they're her

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Speaker 1: husband's underground, right? He's buried. My husband's still walking, but

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Speaker 1: I'm a widow.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Cause he's never fucking here. You know, I actually think

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Speaker 1: that's a pretty clever term. You don't get a lot

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Speaker 1: about Elsa, but she could turn a phrase. I think, um,

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Speaker 1: maybe that was a common one. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: She probably wrote the speech. She may.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. She probably wrote it.

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Speaker 1: Um, As he spent years engaged in making welfare programs

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Speaker 1: operate for the church, he began to think more and

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Speaker 1: more about who exactly was included in the people's community.

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Speaker 1: Which Germans are really German and thus deserving of help?

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Speaker 1: While he mulled these issues, the National Socialists recovered from

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Speaker 1: their failed push attempt and slowly built themselves into a

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Speaker 1: major electoral force. Well, not really all that slowly. Next,

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Speaker 1: per an article by George Bloom, quote, So he is now–

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Speaker 1: it's not really a megachurch, but this is as close

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Speaker 1: as you get in this period to something occupying that

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Speaker 1: position because it's like a– it's a rich church. It

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Speaker 1: is a parish for people with money, you know? Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Where you can sit around and think about who's really German.

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Speaker 1: Right. And his parishioners included a lot of very influential conservatives,

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Speaker 1: including a lot of early Nazis. And as one of

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Speaker 1: the most affluent parishes in Germany, it was not seen

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Speaker 1: as inappropriate that Martin repeatedly spoke up to advocate for

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Speaker 1: far-right politics and political parties. The 1929 depression seems to

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Speaker 1: have hardened him to the necessity of something like the

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Speaker 1: Nazis and someone like Hitler, for clearly Germany needed a

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Speaker 1: single strong man to embody the national spirit and whip

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Speaker 1: things back into shape. In their Teaching the Holocaust section,

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Speaker 1: Consider the Source writes this about Niemöller' s Nazi sympathies at

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Speaker 1: this time. Like many Germans, he believed Hitler would provide

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Speaker 1: strong leadership and help Germany recover. Niemöller even viewed Hitler

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Speaker 1: as an instrument sent by God and supported the Nazis

340
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Speaker 1: despite their open anti-Semitism and persecution of Jews and other groups.

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Speaker 3: An instrument sent by God.

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Speaker 1: An instrument of God. First they came for the communists,

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Speaker 1: and I thought that was great because God declared it.

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Speaker 1: and made hitler in his own image a little different

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Speaker 1: of a poem if you read.

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Speaker 2: It that way yeah uh-huh i would probably.

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Speaker 1: Wouldn't be be spread so much on social media um

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Speaker 1: That same source notes that Martin, quote, himself held antisemitic beliefs,

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Speaker 1: referring to Jews in the 1920s and 30s as a

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Speaker 1: despised people and Christ killers. He would later insist that

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Speaker 1: his support for the Nazis never included support for genocide.

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Speaker 1: He simply hoped Nazi racial policies and laws would force

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Speaker 1: the Jews out of politics and public life. This is

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Speaker 1: like one of his excuses. I just thought you were

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Speaker 1: going to make him not be allowed to talk. Yeah. Like,

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Speaker 1: I just don't want them here.

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Speaker 2: I didn't say I wanted them dead. I just want

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Speaker 2: them not where the food is and the shelter and

359
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Speaker 2: the healthcare.

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Speaker 1: That may be true, but I don't care. I still

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Speaker 1: think you should have been shot at the end of

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Speaker 1: the war, to be honest, Martin. I'm getting ahead of myself.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you'll think that's unfair by the end.

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Speaker 2: In my mind, he's still.

365
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Speaker 2: In my mind he still has redemption arc ahead.

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Speaker 1: Of him i know that that's sure there's room all

367
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Speaker 1: right because there are some guys who were legitimate nazi

368
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Speaker 1: and if you're a legitimate nazi for me redemption means

369
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Speaker 1: you either gave or risked your life to save people

370
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Speaker 1: from the nazis right totally that's kind of the only

371
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Speaker 1: redemption for you if you're a committed nazi in the

372
00:18:54,859 --> 00:18:59,350
Speaker 1: pre-war period right yeah um However, it must be said

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Speaker 1: that Martin was not like a racial anti-Semite, right? Or

374
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Speaker 1: at least I don't see a lot of evidence for that.

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Speaker 1: This is not, I'm not saying this to like mitigate

376
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Speaker 1: what he's doing. That doesn't make it better. It's just different, right?

377
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Speaker 1: What I mean by that is Martin was not driven,

378
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Speaker 1: so far as I can tell, by a belief that

379
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Speaker 1: the Jews are destined to only be Jews. His issue

380
00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,160
Speaker 1: is with their faith and culture. And so when Jews

381
00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:24,080
Speaker 1: converted to Christianity, he was generally happy to recognize them

382
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Speaker 1: as his fellow citizens and Christians, right?

383
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Speaker 2: Right.

384
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Speaker 1: And that does separate him from the Nazis, right?

385
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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 1: And this is a sticking point that he's unwilling to, well,

387
00:19:32,690 --> 00:19:38,170
Speaker 1: not unwilling, but less willing to compromise on, right? 1931

388
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Speaker 1: and 32 would be the happiest years of Niemöller' s life.

389
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Speaker 1: His career was going great. He had a large and

390
00:19:43,630 --> 00:19:47,070
Speaker 1: healthy family. He was influential. And his political side seemed

391
00:19:47,090 --> 00:19:49,169
Speaker 1: to be winning, but had not yet come to power

392
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Speaker 1: and thus been able to like, fuck up. All the

393
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Speaker 1: things that they were saying were good, right? And then

394
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Speaker 1: in July of 1932, after a month that saw dozens

395
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Speaker 1: killed and hundreds injured in street fights between left and

396
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Speaker 1: right-wing groups in Berlin, the Nazis came out on top

397
00:20:04,190 --> 00:20:08,189
Speaker 1: in a parliamentary election. This did not lead immediately to

398
00:20:08,230 --> 00:20:11,379
Speaker 1: Hitler's chancellorship, but it did lead quite directly to it.

399
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Speaker 1: Hitler's going to demand to be chancellor from Hindenburg. Hindenburg

400
00:20:15,180 --> 00:20:18,660
Speaker 1: is the president. And for months, there's backroom deals and skullduggery.

401
00:20:18,900 --> 00:20:21,000
Speaker 1: We've covered this on another episode, so I'm not going

402
00:20:21,020 --> 00:20:23,359
Speaker 1: to get into it. But it's during this chaotic period

403
00:20:23,420 --> 00:20:26,280
Speaker 1: when Hitler is destined for but not yet in total

404
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:29,530
Speaker 1: power that Pastor Niemöller gave one of his most famous

405
00:20:29,590 --> 00:20:34,010
Speaker 1: speeches on New Year's Day 1933 in his church. per

406
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Speaker 1: an article in Christian Century by Matthew Hockenos. What God's

407
00:20:37,790 --> 00:20:39,909
Speaker 1: intentions may be with regard to our nation or to

408
00:20:39,970 --> 00:20:42,170
Speaker 1: ourselves in the new year, we do not and shall

409
00:20:42,210 --> 00:20:44,470
Speaker 1: not know, he intoned. But he warned that in these

410
00:20:44,530 --> 00:20:47,050
Speaker 1: dark times, God's grace is not just a source of

411
00:20:47,090 --> 00:20:51,850
Speaker 1: relief or comfort. That is easy Christianity and artificial grace. Rather,

412
00:20:51,970 --> 00:20:53,850
Speaker 1: God offers us his grace so that we will put

413
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Speaker 1: our whole trust in him and his son. We are

414
00:20:56,190 --> 00:20:58,990
Speaker 1: not God's generals, but his soldiers. Ours is not to

415
00:20:59,030 --> 00:21:02,340
Speaker 1: make the plans, but to carry out the orders. Niemöller' s

416
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,159
Speaker 1: message was clear. It was not the responsibility of the

417
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:06,840
Speaker 1: individual or the church to meddle in the secular affairs

418
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:11,100
Speaker 1: of state and its law. Now, Hockenos notes that Hitler

419
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,119
Speaker 1: published his own New Year's Day appeal the same time

420
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Speaker 1: that Martin gives this speech, and in it Hitler urged

421
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Speaker 1: his followers to reject conservative power sharing and give all

422
00:21:20,300 --> 00:21:23,720
Speaker 1: power and trust to him. Any compromise, he warned, would

423
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:28,020
Speaker 1: destroy them and their party. Per that article, Niemöller' s parishioners,

424
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,110
Speaker 1: at least the more conservative and nationalistic ones, must have

425
00:21:31,140 --> 00:21:34,490
Speaker 1: suffered a conflict of conscience after reading this propaganda, wondering

426
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Speaker 1: whether it was possible to trust both their God and

427
00:21:37,230 --> 00:21:40,710
Speaker 1: the Nazi leader. If the parishioners looked to Pastor Niemöller

428
00:21:40,810 --> 00:21:44,109
Speaker 1: for direction on this question, the answer was clear. Niemöller

429
00:21:44,130 --> 00:21:46,610
Speaker 1: made no secret of his support for the Nazis, although

430
00:21:46,630 --> 00:21:49,199
Speaker 1: he never campaigned from the pulpit for Hitler. So he's

431
00:21:49,220 --> 00:21:50,940
Speaker 1: not saying vote for Hitler, but he's making an ethical

432
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:52,689
Speaker 1: case where the only response is vote for Hitler to

433
00:21:52,730 --> 00:21:53,770
Speaker 1: his parishioners, right?

434
00:21:53,790 --> 00:21:54,050
Speaker 2: Yeah.

435
00:21:54,090 --> 00:21:55,970
Speaker 1: No, he's making a theological case for shut the fuck

436
00:21:55,990 --> 00:21:58,100
Speaker 1: up and let bad stuff that's clearly anti-Christian happen. Yep.

437
00:21:58,109 --> 00:21:58,310
Speaker 2: Yep. Yep.

438
00:22:18,810 --> 00:22:20,369
Speaker 1: Shut up and let it happen. Shut up and let

439
00:22:20,390 --> 00:22:22,560
Speaker 1: it happen. That's what he said, right?

440
00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, so first they came for the trade unionists and

441
00:22:26,020 --> 00:22:28,100
Speaker 2: I didn't say anything because I believe that the state

442
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 2: should make its own decisions about what to do with

443
00:22:29,619 --> 00:22:31,440
Speaker 2: the trade unionists. It's not my place to say.

444
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:33,530
Speaker 1: Not my place to say. I did vote for them

445
00:22:33,570 --> 00:22:35,189
Speaker 1: to kill those guys, but it's not my place to

446
00:22:35,230 --> 00:22:37,490
Speaker 1: say what happens to them. But that's unrelated to my

447
00:22:37,730 --> 00:22:42,010
Speaker 1: personal beliefs. I can't be blamed for that. Martin's support

448
00:22:42,150 --> 00:22:45,270
Speaker 1: certainly was not crucial to Hitler taking power later that month,

449
00:22:45,310 --> 00:22:47,869
Speaker 1: but it had the effect of helping calm any conservative

450
00:22:47,910 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 1: parishioners who weren't fully convinced of this Hitler chap. In

451
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,960
Speaker 1: another speech on March 5th, 1933, before the first– Because.

452
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 2: The monarchists didn't totally love Hitler, right? No, no.

453
00:22:57,020 --> 00:22:59,770
Speaker 1: And in fact, I talked to a man who fought–

454
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 1: he was 14 when the war ended, but he fought

455
00:23:01,619 --> 00:23:04,770
Speaker 1: in the Hitler Youth when they were drafting the teenagers, right?

456
00:23:05,290 --> 00:23:10,419
Speaker 1: His grandfather was a Prussian military officer who died in

457
00:23:10,460 --> 00:23:13,790
Speaker 1: a concentration camp because of his resistance to the Hitler regime.

458
00:23:13,850 --> 00:23:16,510
Speaker 1: And his resistance to the Hitler regime wasn't hitler's a

459
00:23:16,570 --> 00:23:19,270
Speaker 1: racist or hitler's a bigot it was he's an idiot

460
00:23:19,310 --> 00:23:21,590
Speaker 1: and he's gonna get us all killed i know more

461
00:23:21,609 --> 00:23:24,410
Speaker 1: about war than this dipshit and he's fucking up right

462
00:23:24,580 --> 00:23:27,100
Speaker 1: yeah he's probably right yeah he was suit he was

463
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,179
Speaker 1: certainly right he was absolutely correct.

464
00:23:28,940 --> 00:23:31,400
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have invaded the ussr probably would have left him.

465
00:23:31,340 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 1: Alone might have been a bad call might have been

466
00:23:33,260 --> 00:23:35,400
Speaker 1: a bad call probably the whole battle of britain bad

467
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,189
Speaker 1: call you know yeah north africa i don't know that

468
00:23:38,210 --> 00:23:39,889
Speaker 1: could have worked i i don't want to get into

469
00:23:39,930 --> 00:23:49,190
Speaker 1: war gaming though So, in another speech on March 5th, 1933,

470
00:23:49,190 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 1: before the first and last elections of the Nazi era,

471
00:23:52,140 --> 00:23:55,380
Speaker 1: Martin gave a different kind of talk, accepting that, quote,

472
00:23:55,500 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 1: it is simply impossible for us today to accept the

473
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 1: comfortable formula that politics have no place in the church.

474
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,500
Speaker 1: And so he urged his parish to take a conscientious

475
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 1: stand this very day. Given that Niemöller voted for Hitler,

476
00:24:08,580 --> 00:24:11,159
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what to call this but an endorsement.

477
00:24:11,730 --> 00:24:15,710
Speaker 1: And Hitler wins, obviously. Once Hitler gets what he wanted, though,

478
00:24:15,930 --> 00:24:19,119
Speaker 1: Martin slowly began to get cold feet. And one thing

479
00:24:19,140 --> 00:24:21,719
Speaker 1: that upsets him is once the new Nazi era is

480
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:26,159
Speaker 1: like fully underway, this new Protestant movement starts up. And

481
00:24:26,180 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 1: they call themselves the German Christians. And the German Christians

482
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:33,410
Speaker 1: have an issue, right? Germany is a Christian country, mostly

483
00:24:33,650 --> 00:24:37,330
Speaker 1: like Protestant, but a lot of Catholics. And Jesus was Jewish.

484
00:24:38,310 --> 00:24:42,639
Speaker 1: Or was he? Was he Aryan? That's where the German

485
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,190
Speaker 1: Christians come in. And their argument is Jesus wasn't a Jew.

486
00:24:46,430 --> 00:24:49,169
Speaker 1: He had no Jewish ancestry. And their whole goal was

487
00:24:49,210 --> 00:24:52,409
Speaker 1: to purify Christianity of Jewish influence. And as a result,

488
00:24:52,710 --> 00:24:54,230
Speaker 1: one of the things they advocated is we got to

489
00:24:54,270 --> 00:24:56,310
Speaker 1: toss out the Old Testament. We got to throw that

490
00:24:56,369 --> 00:24:59,950
Speaker 1: shit in the trash. All these Jews wandering around the desert.

491
00:25:00,140 --> 00:25:03,940
Speaker 1: Absolutely not. Can't have that in our Nazi Christianity.

492
00:25:04,619 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 2: I love it because the Old Testament is like, more

493
00:25:08,140 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 2: conservative than the New Testament.

494
00:25:09,820 --> 00:25:10,859
Speaker 1: It's super conservative.

495
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,930
Speaker 2: And they're like, but it's too Jewish. Gotta go.

496
00:25:14,970 --> 00:25:16,369
Speaker 1: It's really, it is very Jewish.

497
00:25:16,390 --> 00:25:19,020
Speaker 2: I mean, I got bad news for you about Christianity,

498
00:25:19,060 --> 00:25:19,650
Speaker 2: my guys.

499
00:25:19,700 --> 00:25:21,420
Speaker 1: Yeah, got really bad news.

500
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:22,100
Speaker 2: It comes from that.

501
00:25:22,780 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, they do not believe this. And this is where

502
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 1: Martin starts to realize, oh, this is his like arrested development.

503
00:25:28,500 --> 00:25:33,179
Speaker 1: I've made a terrible mistake moment. When Martin, the theologian,

504
00:25:33,220 --> 00:25:35,540
Speaker 1: starts hearing his parishioner say, you know, Jesus wasn't a Jew.

505
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:41,660
Speaker 1: And he's like, well, OK, wait a second. So Martin

506
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:43,540
Speaker 1: does not like this. And he doesn't like that the

507
00:25:43,580 --> 00:25:46,270
Speaker 1: German Christians also think Jews should not be allowed to

508
00:25:46,310 --> 00:25:49,710
Speaker 1: be baptized as Christians. One of their slogans was literally

509
00:25:49,869 --> 00:25:58,260
Speaker 1: baptism can't straighten a crooked nose. And this, yeah, yeah. This,

510
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,340
Speaker 1: this is the line for Martin. This is where he

511
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,580
Speaker 1: is like, I have to do something. Right. Yeah.

512
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 2: Okay.

513
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 1: This, this is the fucking lie.

514
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,710
Speaker 2: Because he actually is religious at the end of the day.

515
00:26:09,740 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 1: He is religious. He believes in something.

516
00:26:11,260 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 2: He's not just looking for power from religion. He believes

517
00:26:14,550 --> 00:26:15,010
Speaker 2: in religion.

518
00:26:15,750 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 1: He does believe in something even when it's inconvenient to him.

519
00:26:20,020 --> 00:26:21,500
Speaker 1: That is true, right?

520
00:26:21,619 --> 00:26:21,780
Speaker 2: Okay.

521
00:26:21,820 --> 00:26:25,410
Speaker 1: He's not completely without a moral backbone, right? He does

522
00:26:25,450 --> 00:26:28,710
Speaker 1: have things that he believes in. And it's Martin's rejection

523
00:26:28,730 --> 00:26:30,970
Speaker 1: of this nonsense theology that would sow the seeds of

524
00:26:31,010 --> 00:26:33,730
Speaker 1: his resistance to Hitler, if we can really call it that.

525
00:26:34,369 --> 00:26:37,489
Speaker 1: I say this because while the first concentration camps are

526
00:26:37,510 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 1: being set up, while the police agencies of the German

527
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,630
Speaker 1: states are being Nazified, while Jews and socialists are being

528
00:26:43,760 --> 00:27:09,540
Speaker 1: murdered and tortured and locked up. Oh, my God. Their

529
00:27:09,580 --> 00:27:11,139
Speaker 1: whole thing is like, well, if Jews are going to

530
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: be Christian, we shouldn't be shitty to them. And if

531
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,020
Speaker 1: someone just has like a little bit of Jewish ancestry,

532
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 1: that shouldn't be a problem as long as they're Christians.

533
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: They do believe that, but that's kind of their only issue.

534
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,440
Speaker 1: And they're still emphatically, we love Hitler.

535
00:27:22,540 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 2: Wow.

536
00:27:22,900 --> 00:27:26,670
Speaker 1: Don't get us wrong. Huge Hitler fans, right? Yeah.

537
00:27:26,730 --> 00:27:30,150
Speaker 2: No, I love it's the reformist approach to Nazism. They're like,

538
00:27:30,170 --> 00:27:33,689
Speaker 2: we still want Nazism a little bit. But like, what

539
00:27:33,710 --> 00:27:36,129
Speaker 2: if it was like 95% Nazism?

540
00:27:36,270 --> 00:27:38,650
Speaker 1: Yeah. What if we dial it down just at skosh?

541
00:27:39,850 --> 00:27:43,109
Speaker 1: You know who else wants to reform Nazis?

542
00:27:43,190 --> 00:27:44,970
Speaker 2: Dial it down a skosh.

543
00:27:45,130 --> 00:27:47,210
Speaker 1: Yeah, dial it down a skosh. That's a better way

544
00:27:47,250 --> 00:27:47,870
Speaker 1: to lead into ads.

545
00:27:48,190 --> 00:27:48,470
Speaker 2: Uh-huh.

546
00:27:48,690 --> 00:27:49,110
Speaker 3: Jesus.

547
00:27:56,410 --> 00:27:58,850
Speaker 1: And we're back. So I don't want to be– the

548
00:27:58,890 --> 00:28:01,150
Speaker 1: young reformers are more complicated than just like a bunch

549
00:28:01,170 --> 00:28:04,209
Speaker 1: of assholes who believe Hitler is basically fine. There are

550
00:28:04,270 --> 00:28:06,470
Speaker 1: some really good people in them who just see this

551
00:28:06,590 --> 00:28:09,190
Speaker 1: as a way to fight the regime. The best of

552
00:28:09,230 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: them is probably Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Dietrich Bonhoeffer is like Martin,

553
00:28:14,540 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 1: a pastor, a Protestant pastor. Dietrich is ultimately going to

554
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,900
Speaker 1: die helping to rescue 14 Jews late in the war.

555
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,570
Speaker 1: He would be executed by the Nazis in 1945. As

556
00:28:24,650 --> 00:28:28,270
Speaker 1: Hockenos writes, Dietrich does not buy– he and Martin work

557
00:28:28,310 --> 00:28:31,290
Speaker 1: together because they're both pastors fighting against the German Christians.

558
00:28:31,890 --> 00:28:34,990
Speaker 1: But Dietrich does not buy Martin as a dissident. Quote,

559
00:28:35,470 --> 00:28:37,540
Speaker 1: although they agreed about the need to fight the German

560
00:28:37,580 --> 00:28:39,380
Speaker 1: Christian threat, they did not see eye to eye on

561
00:28:39,420 --> 00:28:42,020
Speaker 1: much else. In a letter to a friend, Bonhoeffer referred

562
00:28:42,060 --> 00:28:45,860
Speaker 1: to Niemöller and his type as naive, starry-eyed idealists who

563
00:28:45,900 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: thought they were the real national socialists because of their

564
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,580
Speaker 1: dual devotion to national socialism and national Protestantism. This was

565
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: nothing less than delusional as far as Bonhoeffer was concerned.

566
00:28:55,740 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: Nazism and Protestantism were inimical because the Nazis openly derided

567
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: Christ's message of love and mercy. Simply put, a good Christian,

568
00:29:03,330 --> 00:29:08,370
Speaker 1: Bonhoeffer believed, could not be a good Nazi. And I've

569
00:29:08,390 --> 00:29:11,490
Speaker 1: thought a lot doing these episodes about my own Protestant upbringing.

570
00:29:11,650 --> 00:29:13,590
Speaker 1: And I am both Catholic because my dad had been

571
00:29:13,630 --> 00:29:15,350
Speaker 1: raised Catholic and I went to mass some as a

572
00:29:15,390 --> 00:29:18,510
Speaker 1: littler kid, but we wound up being more Protestant than anything.

573
00:29:19,190 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: And I feel like If I'd met more Bonhoeffer Christians

574
00:29:23,860 --> 00:29:26,740
Speaker 1: as a kid, I might not have given up Christianity,

575
00:29:27,090 --> 00:29:29,230
Speaker 1: but unfortunately, I met only Niemöllers.

576
00:29:29,690 --> 00:29:32,050
Speaker 2: Yeah. Oops, all Niemöllers.

577
00:29:32,650 --> 00:29:34,990
Speaker 1: And my old church is a kid that split away

578
00:29:35,070 --> 00:29:37,690
Speaker 1: from the Episcopalian church and led that breakaway to the

579
00:29:37,750 --> 00:29:39,890
Speaker 1: African Anglican church because they didn't want gay people to

580
00:29:39,910 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: be bishops. That, that was my pastor as a kid. Wow.

581
00:29:43,620 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: Like the head of that whole movement. Yeah. I got

582
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: on TV for that. It's like coming out of Sunday school.

583
00:29:48,660 --> 00:29:51,130
Speaker 1: There was a, anyway, bunch of fucking knee molars.

584
00:29:51,370 --> 00:29:51,590
Speaker 2: Right.

585
00:29:51,810 --> 00:29:53,770
Speaker 1: Yeah. That's my, that's my attitude about. Yeah.

586
00:29:53,790 --> 00:29:57,070
Speaker 2: Whereas I remember like being like really confused and going

587
00:29:57,090 --> 00:29:59,450
Speaker 2: to my, my nun aunt and being like, why are

588
00:29:59,750 --> 00:30:02,450
Speaker 2: all the sudden people saying that Christians believe the earth

589
00:30:02,510 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 2: is like 10,000 years old or whatever? And my like

590
00:30:05,100 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 2: nun aunt is like, don't worry about that bullshit, kid.

591
00:30:09,180 --> 00:30:12,140
Speaker 1: My dad was always great as a fucking former altar boy.

592
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:13,940
Speaker 1: When I was like, what is with these creations? He's like,

593
00:30:13,980 --> 00:30:14,540
Speaker 1: they're idiots.

594
00:30:14,980 --> 00:30:15,810
Speaker 2: Yeah.

595
00:30:15,850 --> 00:30:18,070
Speaker 1: They're idiots and the Pope says so. Yeah.

596
00:30:18,550 --> 00:30:21,710
Speaker 2: Like my aunt was literally married to God. God's wife

597
00:30:21,750 --> 00:30:23,190
Speaker 2: says it's fine. Fuck off.

598
00:30:23,430 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. It's the, I think a lot about, the

599
00:30:27,820 --> 00:30:30,860
Speaker 1: two different ways you can interpret Christianity, right? Like my

600
00:30:30,940 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: pastor did where he's like, well, shouldn't let gay people

601
00:30:34,380 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: preach the word of God. And that's, that's the, that's,

602
00:30:37,620 --> 00:30:39,340
Speaker 1: that's a big enough cause that I'm going to fight

603
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,260
Speaker 1: for it. Of all of the evils in the world,

604
00:30:41,550 --> 00:30:44,420
Speaker 1: my pastor picked that as the one to like stake

605
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,110
Speaker 1: his name to fighting. Whereas Dietrich Bonhoeffer is like, oh,

606
00:30:47,130 --> 00:30:50,610
Speaker 1: people are being oppressed. Guess I'll die like Christ would

607
00:30:50,690 --> 00:30:53,690
Speaker 1: saving them. That's the Christian thing to do is die

608
00:30:53,810 --> 00:30:54,370
Speaker 1: saving them.

609
00:30:56,850 --> 00:31:01,850
Speaker 2: And it's, you know, you, the, the connect, the connections to, American,

610
00:31:01,890 --> 00:31:06,380
Speaker 2: what's this word? Christian fascism in America. Christian nationalism, that's

611
00:31:06,420 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 2: the word. They're so direct, like what you're saying about like,

612
00:31:10,500 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 2: we need to basically reinvent Christianity and like leave out

613
00:31:13,900 --> 00:31:16,850
Speaker 2: all of the- Purge out this nice shit. Yeah, there's

614
00:31:16,890 --> 00:31:19,650
Speaker 2: a whole lot about being nice to random people. Yeah.

615
00:31:20,030 --> 00:31:23,090
Speaker 2: Like especially strangers and foreigners. Gotta get rid of that.

616
00:31:23,110 --> 00:31:23,650
Speaker 1: Gotta get rid of that.

617
00:31:23,670 --> 00:31:27,100
Speaker 2: And I'm not saying like, The Bible is inherently consistent

618
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 2: or moral.

619
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:29,270
Speaker 1: No, there's a bunch of shit in there.

620
00:31:29,290 --> 00:31:32,610
Speaker 2: That's when it hits on a lot. And they're just like, no, no, no, no. No, no, no.

621
00:31:32,630 --> 00:31:33,969
Speaker 1: Got to get rid of that. Got to get rid

622
00:31:34,010 --> 00:31:34,270
Speaker 1: of that.

623
00:31:34,690 --> 00:31:34,890
Speaker 2: Yeah.

624
00:31:34,930 --> 00:31:38,930
Speaker 1: Yeah. And so even to the extent that Martin sort

625
00:31:38,950 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: of breaks good after this point and becomes an enemy

626
00:31:41,860 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 1: of the regime. He never, ever, at any point in

627
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 1: his life, shows even a tenth of the moral courage

628
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,100
Speaker 1: that someone like Bonhoeffer existed. In fact, even as he

629
00:31:52,220 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: organized with Dietrich, he worked to profit off of nationalism

630
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 1: and ingratiate himself to Nazi leadership, as this quote from

631
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: an article by Barry Yorgrau in The Nation makes clear.

632
00:32:01,780 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: That very summer, Niemöller was once again reaffirming his nationalist

633
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,540
Speaker 1: bona fides, writing and quickly publishing From U-Boat to Pulpit,

634
00:32:08,780 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: a memoir of his submarine exploits and his struggles against

635
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,180
Speaker 1: the Weimar Republic. By the end of 1934, it had

636
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,750
Speaker 1: sold 60,000 copies. Hockenos observes that the author sent it

637
00:32:17,790 --> 00:32:19,990
Speaker 1: to Joseph Goebbels with a note saying it was written

638
00:32:20,070 --> 00:32:22,870
Speaker 1: in the spirit of the Third Reich. At the Dahlem Church,

639
00:32:23,110 --> 00:32:26,250
Speaker 1: remarks Simon, the pastor would receive the Sig Heil salute

640
00:32:26,270 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: from parishioners and acknowledge it. So, would we call him

641
00:32:30,580 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: a relentless foe of Hitler at this point?

642
00:32:33,220 --> 00:32:33,660
Speaker 2: No.

643
00:32:34,780 --> 00:32:37,820
Speaker 1: I'd say someone who has like a mild structural disagreement

644
00:32:37,860 --> 00:32:39,030
Speaker 1: with Hitler. Yeah.

645
00:32:39,050 --> 00:32:41,940
Speaker 2: Yeah. There's like kind of a level where if it's

646
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,260
Speaker 2: like if there's Nazis and you have any kind of

647
00:32:44,340 --> 00:32:47,180
Speaker 2: public voice and you're not basically dead or dying in

648
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 2: your fight, you're not doing it right.

649
00:32:49,830 --> 00:32:52,490
Speaker 1: You're not doing it right. And fucking Martin sure is

650
00:32:52,550 --> 00:32:55,330
Speaker 1: not at this point. But over the next few years,

651
00:32:55,390 --> 00:32:58,550
Speaker 1: he did work to thwart a narrow plank of Hitler's system,

652
00:32:58,970 --> 00:33:02,030
Speaker 1: organizing to try and beat the German Christians in church

653
00:33:02,110 --> 00:33:06,340
Speaker 1: leadership elections and generally failing. This finally made it clear

654
00:33:06,380 --> 00:33:09,020
Speaker 1: to Niemöller that he had made a grave error, and

655
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:14,140
Speaker 1: he dedicated the next three years, like 34, 35 to 37, 38,

656
00:33:14,140 --> 00:33:16,980
Speaker 1: trying to staunch the bleeding and stop Hitler from taking

657
00:33:17,060 --> 00:33:20,060
Speaker 1: over the Protestant church in Germany entirely. It was for

658
00:33:20,140 --> 00:33:22,620
Speaker 1: this that Hitler had him arrested for the first time

659
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,100
Speaker 1: in July of 1937 for misusing the pulpit to a

660
00:33:26,140 --> 00:33:30,180
Speaker 1: political end. Now, he'd been detained several times prior to this,

661
00:33:30,700 --> 00:33:33,410
Speaker 1: But 37 is when it sticks and he's taken to

662
00:33:33,470 --> 00:33:35,230
Speaker 1: prison and he's not going to get out until the

663
00:33:35,270 --> 00:33:37,270
Speaker 1: war is in. He is in jail for the next

664
00:33:37,510 --> 00:33:42,270
Speaker 1: almost a decade. Right. This prompts international outrage for reasons

665
00:33:42,310 --> 00:33:46,940
Speaker 1: that are somewhat frustrating. While American newspapers lauded Martin as

666
00:33:47,010 --> 00:33:50,770
Speaker 1: a heroic figure of anti-Nazi resistance and published op-eds making

667
00:33:50,790 --> 00:33:53,610
Speaker 1: him out to be a martyr to Hitler's cruelty, Niemöller

668
00:33:53,630 --> 00:33:57,730
Speaker 1: defended himself in court by arguing, Wait, no, I love Hitler, bro.

669
00:33:57,950 --> 00:34:00,530
Speaker 1: Don't even get me wrong. I'm such a fan of

670
00:34:00,890 --> 00:34:03,090
Speaker 1: this dude. I don't know even why I'm.

671
00:34:03,010 --> 00:34:06,190
Speaker 2: Here, right? It's just all a mistake. If Hitler knew

672
00:34:06,210 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 2: how I felt, he'd let me go. Yeah.

673
00:34:10,660 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: Quote, and this is from Zeman's book. The court allowed

674
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: the defendant to talk about his life in detail. Niemöller

675
00:34:15,660 --> 00:34:17,980
Speaker 1: seized the opportunity and gave a speech that contained many

676
00:34:18,060 --> 00:34:20,580
Speaker 1: elements of the narrative and from U-boat to pulpit. He

677
00:34:20,620 --> 00:34:23,299
Speaker 1: presented himself as a Navy officer and U-boat commander who

678
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,340
Speaker 1: had risked his life for the fatherland and wanted to

679
00:34:25,410 --> 00:34:28,610
Speaker 1: serve the uprooted German people as a free corps fighter

680
00:34:29,110 --> 00:34:31,930
Speaker 1: in 1920, as a student of theology and as a pastor.

681
00:34:32,230 --> 00:34:34,690
Speaker 1: He claimed to have always voted for the NSDAP from

682
00:34:34,690 --> 00:34:38,939
Speaker 1: 1924 onwards. And Zeman notes that this is untrue, although,

683
00:34:38,980 --> 00:34:41,180
Speaker 1: as I've said, other sources insist he voted at least

684
00:34:41,300 --> 00:34:44,420
Speaker 1: once for the Nazis in the 20s. That said, if

685
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 1: Martin had been saying this in court, to be like,

686
00:34:46,820 --> 00:34:49,780
Speaker 1: I love Hitler, I voted for you guys, while actively

687
00:34:49,860 --> 00:34:52,220
Speaker 1: sneaking Jews and other endangered people out of the country,

688
00:34:52,300 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 1: and the lie was just a cover, I'd be like,

689
00:34:54,219 --> 00:34:54,890
Speaker 1: totally forgive him.

690
00:34:55,110 --> 00:34:56,230
Speaker 2: Totally forgive him. Yeah, he'd be on my show, not

691
00:34:56,270 --> 00:34:57,509
Speaker 2: your show. Awesome thing to do, bro. Yeah.

692
00:34:57,790 --> 00:34:59,950
Speaker 1: Yeah. He's not. Right.

693
00:35:00,489 --> 00:35:00,810
Speaker 2: Yeah.

694
00:35:01,190 --> 00:35:02,610
Speaker 1: And we part of why we I mean, we know

695
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:04,919
Speaker 1: it's because he didn't do that. And also in court,

696
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 1: he insisted Jews were alien and that he disliked them. So, again,

697
00:35:08,980 --> 00:35:10,529
Speaker 1: he's still calling them Christ killers.

698
00:35:11,140 --> 00:35:12,910
Speaker 2: I wonder if they're really like, I hate the Jews.

699
00:35:12,969 --> 00:35:14,330
Speaker 2: I want them out of the country, but I want

700
00:35:14,350 --> 00:35:15,470
Speaker 2: them safely out of the country.

701
00:35:16,250 --> 00:35:18,510
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what he would say was his attitude, right?

702
00:35:19,510 --> 00:35:22,220
Speaker 2: Not an okay attitude, to be clear. I'm not defending

703
00:35:22,260 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 2: this position.

704
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 1: Not meaningfully different. Now, it is true that he's existed

705
00:35:26,900 --> 00:35:29,700
Speaker 1: in pissing off Joseph Goebbels because the judges really liked

706
00:35:29,739 --> 00:35:32,060
Speaker 1: him and he was cleared of all but one charge.

707
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: And the last one was, shouldn't have been that big

708
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,510
Speaker 1: a charge, but this does not get him out of prison, right?

709
00:35:37,930 --> 00:35:41,709
Speaker 1: Hitler personally orders Martin Niemöller to be sent to Sachsenhausen,

710
00:35:42,030 --> 00:35:45,430
Speaker 1: a concentration camp outside of Berlin, mainly for political prisoners.

711
00:35:45,770 --> 00:35:47,270
Speaker 1: If you're ever in Berlin and get a chance to

712
00:35:47,310 --> 00:35:48,510
Speaker 1: see it, I really recommend going.

713
00:35:48,530 --> 00:35:49,430
Speaker 2: Okay.

714
00:35:49,969 --> 00:35:52,730
Speaker 1: He would spend the next two-thirds of a decade behind

715
00:35:52,790 --> 00:35:56,069
Speaker 1: bars as the personal prisoner of Hitler. This was not

716
00:35:56,110 --> 00:36:00,860
Speaker 1: like a great situation, obviously, but as Hitler's personal prisoner,

717
00:36:00,900 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: his own treatment was vastly better than that of the Jews, homosexuals,

718
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,420
Speaker 1: and socialists that he had no problem voting to put

719
00:36:07,460 --> 00:36:09,500
Speaker 1: in camps. He is much more comfortable than they are.

720
00:36:09,820 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 2: Right.

721
00:36:10,420 --> 00:36:14,240
Speaker 1: This is not a death camp situation. He's not being tortured. Right.

722
00:36:14,260 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 3: Right.

723
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,720
Speaker 1: But across the pond in the United States, his legend

724
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: only grew. Barry Yorgraal writes that in numerous churches.

725
00:36:20,540 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 3: God, Americans are so stupid.

726
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:24,259
Speaker 2: It's unbelievable. Oh, we're dumb as fuck.

727
00:36:24,300 --> 00:36:26,240
Speaker 1: We're so fucking dumb. So stupid.

728
00:36:27,580 --> 00:36:28,980
Speaker 2: Oh, man. Not you, Truman.

729
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,940
Speaker 3: My dog thought I was calling her name.

730
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:32,980
Speaker 2: No, Truman, you're great.

731
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:34,020
Speaker 1: You're great, girlfriend.

732
00:36:34,060 --> 00:36:34,380
Speaker 2: No, no.

733
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,140
Speaker 1: Just the rest of the country. Not American dogs.

734
00:36:37,180 --> 00:36:38,420
Speaker 2: You're innocent.

735
00:36:38,460 --> 00:36:41,260
Speaker 3: It's not your fault that us human Americans.

736
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:41,320
Speaker 2: Are so stupid.

737
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,990
Speaker 1: Hard to blame any of this on dogs. So stupid.

738
00:36:44,030 --> 00:36:46,850
Speaker 2: I have one immediately at my feet right now. Very happy.

739
00:36:46,969 --> 00:36:48,989
Speaker 3: I got one at my feet and one right next

740
00:36:49,010 --> 00:36:50,230
Speaker 3: to me. That's how I'd like to.

741
00:36:50,230 --> 00:36:52,250
Speaker 2: Be forever, double-dogging.

742
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,180
Speaker 1: I got no dog, but I do have a bunch

743
00:36:55,219 --> 00:37:05,830
Speaker 1: of shit to read about this asshole. Great. That's what

744
00:37:05,870 --> 00:37:09,069
Speaker 1: the American nickname of Martin Niemöller is. Although I'm not

745
00:37:09,090 --> 00:37:11,270
Speaker 1: really sure what fighting he'd done other than in the

746
00:37:11,310 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 1: Freikorps at this point.

747
00:37:13,060 --> 00:37:14,980
Speaker 2: I hate this. He's more famous than the other guy

748
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 2: you said just because he's like the personal prisoner.

749
00:37:17,140 --> 00:37:18,260
Speaker 1: At this point in time, for sure.

750
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:19,280
Speaker 2: For sure.

751
00:37:19,420 --> 00:37:22,910
Speaker 1: Probably still today more famous than Dietrich Bonhoeffer, right? Yeah.

752
00:37:23,110 --> 00:37:26,410
Speaker 1: Dietrich doesn't write a poem. He just dies saving people,

753
00:37:26,610 --> 00:37:28,489
Speaker 1: but he doesn't write a poem. That's what he should

754
00:37:28,510 --> 00:37:30,950
Speaker 1: have thought about that. Should have thought about that, Dietrich.

755
00:37:31,210 --> 00:37:33,690
Speaker 2: Yeah, he didn't believe in trying to be immortal by

756
00:37:33,710 --> 00:37:37,610
Speaker 2: writing poetry. No, but instead through good deeds.

757
00:37:39,030 --> 00:37:42,420
Speaker 1: One Brooklyn clergyman restaged Niemöller' s arrest on his pulpit, then

758
00:37:42,460 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 1: delivered his sermon from behind mock Sachsenhausen cell bars. The

759
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,060
Speaker 1: New York Times and Time magazine issued regular updates on

760
00:37:49,100 --> 00:37:51,459
Speaker 1: his fate. Time, as noted, put him on its cover

761
00:37:51,540 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 1: as the martyr of 1940. The Martyr of 1940. Nothing

762
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,299
Speaker 1: else bad happened in 1940. Nothing else bad happened that

763
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: year that the Nazis did. That's so fucking stupid. In 1939,

764
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,450
Speaker 1: a German Jewish exile named Ernst Toller, who'd previously been

765
00:38:06,489 --> 00:38:09,590
Speaker 1: a major part of the Bavarian Soviet Republic that had

766
00:38:09,610 --> 00:38:14,910
Speaker 1: been crushed by the Freikorps, wrote a fictionalized play about

767
00:38:14,969 --> 00:38:18,450
Speaker 1: Niemöller' s life called Pastor Hall. I would say it's a

768
00:38:18,469 --> 00:38:22,860
Speaker 1: barely accurate... play about Niemöller' s life titled Pastor Hall. The

769
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,760
Speaker 1: play was made into a movie in 1940 and James Roosevelt,

770
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,020
Speaker 1: son of Eleanor Roosevelt, brought it to the United States

771
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:31,660
Speaker 1: for release. The poster gives you an idea of the

772
00:38:31,700 --> 00:38:32,540
Speaker 1: contents of the film.

773
00:38:32,580 --> 00:38:32,779
Speaker 2: No.

774
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 1: At the top it says, it can happen here.

775
00:38:35,140 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 2: No.

776
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,730
Speaker 1: And there's like a whip in front of, above his

777
00:38:37,790 --> 00:38:41,650
Speaker 1: head and the pastor's like cradling a young girl. You know,

778
00:38:41,670 --> 00:38:43,750
Speaker 1: there's Nazis beating guys in the streets.

779
00:38:44,010 --> 00:38:46,830
Speaker 2: Yeah. This is where you all got your podcast name from.

780
00:38:46,910 --> 00:38:48,750
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is. That's where we stole it from.

781
00:38:49,130 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 3: Actually, Robert, do you recall that you were going to

782
00:38:52,060 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 3: call the show It Can Happen Here, and then I

783
00:38:53,660 --> 00:38:55,820
Speaker 3: just changed it to Could, and then that was the title?

784
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, well, because I was copying it from a

785
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,180
Speaker 1: book that they were also referencing in this movie.

786
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 2: Anyway.

787
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 1: You can find the whole movie on YouTube today. The

788
00:39:04,530 --> 00:39:07,569
Speaker 1: opening card reads, The story of the individual in Europe

789
00:39:07,590 --> 00:39:09,569
Speaker 1: during the past decade has shown us how much more

790
00:39:09,650 --> 00:39:12,670
Speaker 1: potent is truth when compared to fiction. Pastor Hall is

791
00:39:12,730 --> 00:39:15,690
Speaker 1: based on authentic, verified facts. I just love that, like.

792
00:39:15,910 --> 00:39:16,670
Speaker 2: You prove.

793
00:39:16,489 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 1: That contention wrong by the fact that you made a

794
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:20,980
Speaker 1: movie about this guy. No, fiction is way more powerful

795
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 1: than truth. You're making a movie about a guy who's

796
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,030
Speaker 1: a committed Nazi and saying he's a foe of Hitler.

797
00:39:26,670 --> 00:39:29,049
Speaker 1: And everyone in America pretty much buys it at this point.

798
00:39:29,739 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 1: Here's how Jorg Rau reviewed the flick for his article.

799
00:39:32,620 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 1: The film shows Pastor Hall being brutally flogged in wretched

800
00:39:35,540 --> 00:39:39,439
Speaker 1: concentration camp conditions. This was pure invention. Niemöller was never

801
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,109
Speaker 1: physically abused or punished with forced labor in all his

802
00:39:42,170 --> 00:39:44,870
Speaker 1: eight years of imprisonment. The Nazis didn't want to enhance

803
00:39:44,910 --> 00:39:49,130
Speaker 1: his martyr status, right? Just a complete fabrication.

804
00:39:49,489 --> 00:39:52,450
Speaker 2: But the fact that there's movies and shit about him

805
00:39:52,790 --> 00:39:54,709
Speaker 2: is why they didn't beat him, according to this.

806
00:39:55,450 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 1: Probably. Like, right, that did help. That's part of why

807
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,580
Speaker 1: he does not suffer as much. Martin's fame was not

808
00:40:01,660 --> 00:40:04,819
Speaker 1: diminished by the facts. Like that in 1938, a year

809
00:40:04,860 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: into his incarceration, he wrote a letter to the Nazi

810
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,530
Speaker 1: authorities and volunteered to serve in the armed forces again.

811
00:40:12,270 --> 00:40:15,390
Speaker 1: In 1941... Okay, that's actually.

812
00:40:16,170 --> 00:40:20,299
Speaker 2: The fighting pastor. I've now hit a fuck this guy completely. Good.

813
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:21,950
Speaker 2: I was fucked this guy completely in World War I.

814
00:40:21,940 --> 00:40:23,850
Speaker 2: I was wondering what it would hit. In the 1920s.

815
00:40:24,219 --> 00:40:26,939
Speaker 2: But once he's in prison, I'm like, look.

816
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 1: In prison.

817
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,410
Speaker 2: He clearly disagreed enough that he's in prison. But when

818
00:40:30,430 --> 00:40:32,670
Speaker 2: he's like, let me out so I can go further

819
00:40:32,690 --> 00:40:33,310
Speaker 2: your war aims.

820
00:40:33,330 --> 00:40:35,750
Speaker 1: Fight for the Nazis. Yeah, for the Third Reich. That's

821
00:40:35,790 --> 00:40:38,430
Speaker 1: why they call him the fighting pastor. I'll tell you

822
00:40:38,450 --> 00:40:39,390
Speaker 1: who he wanted to fight for.

823
00:40:39,650 --> 00:40:43,170
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, fight everyone else. Fight the allies.

824
00:40:43,190 --> 00:40:44,439
Speaker 1: That's very true.

825
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 2: He's like, why are we in fighting? I'm on your side.

826
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 1: I'm on your side. Let me help. In 1941, he

827
00:40:51,219 --> 00:40:53,930
Speaker 1: was transferred to Dachau. And once the war was well

828
00:40:53,969 --> 00:40:58,210
Speaker 1: and truly underway, he volunteered again, begging to be allowed

829
00:40:58,230 --> 00:41:02,359
Speaker 1: to crew or captain a U-boat for Hitler. Whoa.

830
00:41:02,420 --> 00:41:03,860
Speaker 2: No, it was the long game. He was like, I'm

831
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,220
Speaker 2: going to rescue people with my U-boat. I don't believe this.

832
00:41:06,340 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 2: But yeah.

833
00:41:09,130 --> 00:41:11,310
Speaker 1: Around this time, a man claiming to be a Jewish

834
00:41:11,390 --> 00:41:14,410
Speaker 1: refugee from Germany, Leo Stein, published a book in the

835
00:41:14,450 --> 00:41:17,310
Speaker 1: United States called I Was in Hell with Niemöller, in

836
00:41:17,330 --> 00:41:19,810
Speaker 1: which he claimed to have sat with Martin and Sachsenhausen.

837
00:41:20,210 --> 00:41:22,469
Speaker 1: And it talks about like, oh, he talked about how

838
00:41:22,930 --> 00:41:25,390
Speaker 1: the Jews are being so horribly abused and Hitler's a

839
00:41:25,469 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: monster and we have to stop this.

840
00:41:27,780 --> 00:41:29,460
Speaker 2: It's complete lies.

841
00:41:29,660 --> 00:41:32,660
Speaker 1: He would have never... Stein never met Martin. Martin was

842
00:41:32,700 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 1: too high value a prisoner to have been in a

843
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 1: cell with any Jews. This is a complete fabrication and

844
00:41:37,820 --> 00:41:39,020
Speaker 1: it still gets referenced today.

845
00:41:39,140 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 2: Which means that this guy both was grifting and making

846
00:41:43,100 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 2: anti-fascist propaganda. And honestly, at the same time, kind of

847
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,420
Speaker 2: not mad. Fucks over historians.

848
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 1: I'm not mad at him, at Leo, no. I'm just

849
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:53,940
Speaker 1: kind of mad at what it does to his reputation, right?

850
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

851
00:41:54,739 --> 00:41:57,660
Speaker 1: But I can't blame Leo, you know? Tough time out there.

852
00:41:58,450 --> 00:42:01,730
Speaker 1: In 1943, after the disaster at Stalingrad, when German defeat

853
00:42:01,770 --> 00:42:05,140
Speaker 1: became inevitable, Niemöller wrote to his wife to consider trying

854
00:42:05,180 --> 00:42:07,460
Speaker 1: to join the– about, like, should I consider trying to

855
00:42:07,500 --> 00:42:10,860
Speaker 1: join the military again? He confessed to Elsa, sometimes I

856
00:42:10,900 --> 00:42:13,100
Speaker 1: am tormented by the thought that the whole bloody fighting

857
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,540
Speaker 1: might end for us in Bolshevism. And I do– in

858
00:42:16,580 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 1: terms of determining the character of Martin, one thing I

859
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:22,300
Speaker 1: find interesting, he's willing to fight for the Nazis in 38.

860
00:42:22,300 --> 00:42:24,500
Speaker 1: He's willing to fight for the Nazis in 41. He

861
00:42:24,540 --> 00:42:28,989
Speaker 1: considers it in 43– But he says, nah, because at

862
00:42:29,030 --> 00:42:31,390
Speaker 1: that point, you know, they're not going to win. And

863
00:42:31,410 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 1: I really think more than any ethical concern, Martin was

864
00:42:33,739 --> 00:42:35,859
Speaker 1: a guy who liked being on the winning side. Yeah.

865
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 3: Right.

866
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

867
00:42:36,620 --> 00:42:38,060
Speaker 1: And that's a big part of his psyche.

868
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 2: If you're a big bootlicker, if you like. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

869
00:42:42,300 --> 00:42:45,180
Speaker 1: He was the subject of another movie in 1944, The

870
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:48,029
Speaker 1: Hitler Gang, which was a fictionalized account of the Nazi

871
00:42:48,090 --> 00:42:50,510
Speaker 1: rise to power in which Hitler et al were depicted

872
00:42:50,550 --> 00:42:53,210
Speaker 1: as actual gangsters. Right. Which is actually a pretty good

873
00:42:53,250 --> 00:42:55,310
Speaker 1: way to look at the way the Nazi party functioned.

874
00:42:55,950 --> 00:42:58,270
Speaker 1: Niemöller gets a scene in the movie where he yells

875
00:42:58,330 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 1: directly into Hitler's face. Do you think we're really so

876
00:43:01,260 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 1: contemptible that we would surrender the sacred faith given to

877
00:43:04,100 --> 00:43:07,220
Speaker 1: us by God and accept a political program in its place?

878
00:43:08,340 --> 00:43:11,940
Speaker 1: This never happened. Nothing like this ever happened.

879
00:43:12,219 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 2: Do you think he was mad about the fact that

880
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:17,620
Speaker 2: everyone kept calling him a leftist, basically? No.

881
00:43:18,140 --> 00:43:20,590
Speaker 1: He's got to make hay out of that, Margaret. At

882
00:43:20,620 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 1: least try to.

883
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,149
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially after the war. Everyone's like, no, I was

884
00:43:24,230 --> 00:43:25,270
Speaker 2: on the other side, I swear.

885
00:43:25,870 --> 00:43:27,870
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know how much he knows about that

886
00:43:27,910 --> 00:43:28,730
Speaker 1: at this point, right?

887
00:43:28,750 --> 00:43:30,569
Speaker 2: There are not a lot of movies he can watch

888
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 2: in Dachau.

889
00:43:31,610 --> 00:43:35,100
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're not showing that movie in Dachau. Martin's entire

890
00:43:35,140 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 1: reputation today, though, is built on these fictions. Writing for

891
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 1: The Nation, Barry Yorgrau describes Martin's actual wartime conditions and

892
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,740
Speaker 1: how World War II finally ended for him. In Dachau,

893
00:43:45,780 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: he was housed there with three German Catholic priests in

894
00:43:48,460 --> 00:43:51,790
Speaker 1: a separate facility for special and honorable prisoners, along with

895
00:43:51,850 --> 00:43:54,150
Speaker 1: foreign inmates with whom he could mingle and share meals.

896
00:43:54,630 --> 00:43:58,050
Speaker 1: On Christmas Eve 1944, he conducted a profoundly poignant service

897
00:43:58,110 --> 00:44:00,810
Speaker 1: in a makeshift cell for six fellow Protestants whose countries

898
00:44:00,850 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 1: Germany was besieging or occupying. In the war's chaotic final days,

899
00:44:04,340 --> 00:44:07,610
Speaker 1: shortly after Bonhoeffer was stripped naked and gruesomely hanged at

900
00:44:07,670 --> 00:44:10,190
Speaker 1: Flossenburg camp for his connection to the plot to kill Hitler,

901
00:44:10,570 --> 00:44:13,530
Speaker 1: Niemöller was rushed away with select others into northern Italy

902
00:44:13,570 --> 00:44:16,469
Speaker 1: by SS troops, according to Simon, and to be either

903
00:44:16,570 --> 00:44:19,489
Speaker 1: murdered or held as a bargaining chip. Hockenos argues for

904
00:44:19,510 --> 00:44:22,800
Speaker 1: the latter. Niemöller was at last liberated on May 4th, 1945,

905
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:28,860
Speaker 1: to an international jubilation. Right? So, he's sitting comfortable in

906
00:44:28,900 --> 00:44:32,100
Speaker 1: a cell where they'll fucking... killing Bonhoeffer in the worst

907
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,100
Speaker 1: way possible. He's kind of tangentially connected to this attempt

908
00:44:35,140 --> 00:44:39,779
Speaker 1: to take out Hitler. And yeah, the war ends and

909
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 1: he's a celebrity for a little while. It comes out

910
00:44:43,860 --> 00:44:47,940
Speaker 1: not long after he gets freed that Martin had volunteered

911
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 1: twice to fight for Hitler. And that really messes with

912
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: his reputation.

913
00:44:53,820 --> 00:44:55,340
Speaker 2: Oh my God. Is this why he gives the speech

914
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 2: and writes the poem is to try and like- Yep.

915
00:44:58,300 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 2: Get himself to be seen as a good anti. Oh,

916
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,819
Speaker 2: my God. You are breaking my heart. I know that

917
00:45:03,860 --> 00:45:06,980
Speaker 2: your job is to pick a guest who's going to

918
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 2: be heartbroken by the topic.

919
00:45:10,070 --> 00:45:13,190
Speaker 1: Yep. Yeah. Well, we'll see how you feel at the

920
00:45:13,250 --> 00:45:13,850
Speaker 1: very end.

921
00:45:14,130 --> 00:45:15,250
Speaker 2: Okay. Okay. Yeah.

922
00:45:15,390 --> 00:45:18,450
Speaker 1: Speaking of the very end, don't think about that. Think

923
00:45:18,489 --> 00:45:19,210
Speaker 1: about these products.

924
00:45:19,530 --> 00:45:19,990
Speaker 2: Yay.

925
00:45:27,380 --> 00:45:31,340
Speaker 1: And we're back. At a press conference with Allied occupation

926
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 1: forces that was given after it had come out that

927
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: he'd volunteered to fight for the Nazis, Martin tried to explain.

928
00:45:36,620 --> 00:45:37,940
Speaker 1: This is where he gives that quote. If there is

929
00:45:37,980 --> 00:45:40,340
Speaker 1: a war, a German doesn't ask if it's just or unjust,

930
00:45:40,380 --> 00:45:43,020
Speaker 1: but he feels bound to join the ranks. But he

931
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,859
Speaker 1: was forced to admit during this press conference that he had, quote,

932
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 1: never quarreled with Hitler over political matters, but purely on

933
00:45:49,100 --> 00:45:54,180
Speaker 1: religious grounds. And for a time, Martin's reputation was justly deflated.

934
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:56,779
Speaker 1: A writer for The New York Times assessed that he

935
00:45:56,820 --> 00:46:00,989
Speaker 1: had been a singularly ineffectual figure of anti-Nazi resistance, and

936
00:46:01,030 --> 00:46:04,190
Speaker 1: this is true. Even after the war, Martin refused to

937
00:46:04,250 --> 00:46:07,430
Speaker 1: admit supporting Hitler had been a total mistake. He insisted

938
00:46:07,489 --> 00:46:10,020
Speaker 1: Germans could not live in a democratic society.

939
00:46:10,540 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 2: I kind of like that he doesn't lie about what

940
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 2: he believes in.

941
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:15,500
Speaker 1: He doesn't at this point.

942
00:46:15,700 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 2: He's saying like, no, I'm a piece of shit.

943
00:46:18,100 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, he kind of is.

944
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:19,989
Speaker 2: Thanks for telling us.

945
00:46:20,690 --> 00:46:23,149
Speaker 1: This is coming to the thing that's a little grayer, right?

946
00:46:23,170 --> 00:46:25,319
Speaker 1: Because he does have what seems to be, I think,

947
00:46:25,380 --> 00:46:27,880
Speaker 1: is somewhat of a genuine flip, right? And to the

948
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,219
Speaker 1: extent that this is a genuine flip, it comes with

949
00:46:30,260 --> 00:46:33,530
Speaker 1: the growing awareness of the Holocaust and what had really happened.

950
00:46:34,050 --> 00:46:36,650
Speaker 1: Martin claimed to be stunned when he learned about it.

951
00:46:36,650 --> 00:46:38,650
Speaker 1: And the specific moment that caused this is he and

952
00:46:38,690 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: his wife. go on a visit and they see the

953
00:46:41,100 --> 00:46:44,820
Speaker 1: crematoria at Dachau where there's a plaque put up commemorating

954
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,100
Speaker 1: the people murdered there. And he saw that the deaths

955
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:51,379
Speaker 1: dated from 1933 to 1945. And that made it undeniable

956
00:46:51,420 --> 00:46:53,910
Speaker 1: that the killing had started while he was still free

957
00:46:54,030 --> 00:46:57,330
Speaker 1: and supporting the Nazis. From this point on, if you

958
00:46:57,370 --> 00:47:02,279
Speaker 1: believe this story, Martin became a belated anti-Nazi. one who

959
00:47:02,300 --> 00:47:04,720
Speaker 1: would dedicate the next portion of his life to loudly

960
00:47:04,780 --> 00:47:08,700
Speaker 1: preaching German guilt for the atrocities of the war years. However,

961
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 1: even if you read his apologies after becoming aware of

962
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:15,500
Speaker 1: the Holocaust, they're mostly shit, right? And this is one

963
00:47:15,540 --> 00:47:17,910
Speaker 1: of the things he says in one of these press conferences.

964
00:47:18,469 --> 00:47:21,370
Speaker 1: I really believed, given the widespread anti-Semitism in Germany at

965
00:47:21,410 --> 00:47:24,230
Speaker 1: that time, that Jews should avoid aspiring to government positions

966
00:47:24,270 --> 00:47:26,990
Speaker 1: or seats in the Reichstag. There were many Jews, especially

967
00:47:27,030 --> 00:47:29,850
Speaker 1: among the Zionists, who took a similar stand. Hitler's assurance

968
00:47:29,910 --> 00:47:32,130
Speaker 1: satisfied me at the time. I am paying for that

969
00:47:32,170 --> 00:47:34,489
Speaker 1: mistake now, and not me alone, but thousands of other

970
00:47:34,530 --> 00:47:38,070
Speaker 1: persons like me. Right? Hitler lied to me, and I

971
00:47:38,110 --> 00:47:39,180
Speaker 1: didn't know it would be that bad.

972
00:47:39,190 --> 00:47:41,029
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm paying for it now. That apology is ass,

973
00:47:41,050 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 2: my guy. I'm paying for it now.

974
00:47:43,060 --> 00:47:44,580
Speaker 1: Ass, bro. You.

975
00:47:45,900 --> 00:47:48,259
Speaker 2: But it's a shit apology, but I'm glad it's a

976
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 2: shit apology because he's still, so far, presenting to me

977
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:55,279
Speaker 2: someone who is not trying to lie.

978
00:47:55,300 --> 00:47:56,740
Speaker 1: I don't think he is.

979
00:47:56,850 --> 00:47:59,690
Speaker 2: Like, he seems to be about what he's about, and

980
00:47:59,730 --> 00:48:02,070
Speaker 2: what he's about is largely bad.

981
00:48:02,790 --> 00:48:02,930
Speaker 1: Yeah.

982
00:48:02,950 --> 00:48:03,089
Speaker 2: Right?

983
00:48:03,230 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. But he's pretty open about it.

984
00:48:05,190 --> 00:48:07,790
Speaker 2: Yeah. Like, even his anti-Nazism being kind of about his

985
00:48:07,850 --> 00:48:11,060
Speaker 2: own guilt, like, one, that's the most German way to

986
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:16,719
Speaker 2: handle it. Yeah. Possible. But, like, you know, I Honestly,

987
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 2: him being a shitty politician about it, not a mark

988
00:48:20,060 --> 00:48:22,799
Speaker 2: against him. What he says is a mark against him

989
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:24,509
Speaker 2: because it's what he believes. And it's a bad thing

990
00:48:24,530 --> 00:48:25,009
Speaker 2: to believe.

991
00:48:25,330 --> 00:48:27,210
Speaker 1: He is like saying in front of these cameras, oh, no,

992
00:48:27,230 --> 00:48:29,430
Speaker 1: those rumors about me are not true. I was like

993
00:48:29,469 --> 00:48:32,069
Speaker 1: pretty cool with Hitler for the most part. I don't

994
00:48:32,110 --> 00:48:34,330
Speaker 1: know where you guys got this movie script from, but

995
00:48:34,370 --> 00:48:35,489
Speaker 1: that's not me.

996
00:48:37,090 --> 00:48:38,609
Speaker 2: He would be a worse guy if he had come

997
00:48:38,650 --> 00:48:41,350
Speaker 2: out and been like, it was all true. I was anti-fascist.

998
00:48:41,750 --> 00:48:42,670
Speaker 1: Hero, pastor.

999
00:48:42,890 --> 00:48:43,109
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1000
00:48:43,430 --> 00:48:47,279
Speaker 1: Yeah. So what he finally decides to do as a

1001
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,740
Speaker 1: result of his– he says he's convinced that like Germany

1002
00:48:50,820 --> 00:48:54,410
Speaker 1: is guilty of a historical crime and we need to

1003
00:48:54,450 --> 00:48:57,710
Speaker 1: make like clear our personal role in that, right? And

1004
00:48:57,950 --> 00:49:00,770
Speaker 1: he makes something called– or he helps make something called

1005
00:49:00,790 --> 00:49:03,090
Speaker 1: the Stuttgart Declaration in which he and a bunch of

1006
00:49:03,130 --> 00:49:07,049
Speaker 1: other Protestant church leaders declared their personal guilt and the

1007
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 1: German Protestant church's guilt for the slaughter of European Jewry

1008
00:49:11,380 --> 00:49:15,470
Speaker 1: per an article in 1517.org. Many Germans rejected this document

1009
00:49:15,510 --> 00:49:17,630
Speaker 1: because they objected to the idea that they were complicit

1010
00:49:17,670 --> 00:49:19,730
Speaker 1: in the murder of their neighbors. Others thought it too

1011
00:49:19,770 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 1: little and too late as a rejection of nationalism and

1012
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:25,950
Speaker 1: racism from Niemöller. During the Cold War years, Niemöller raised

1013
00:49:25,969 --> 00:49:28,660
Speaker 1: the ire of fellow Protestants in Germany by refusing to

1014
00:49:28,739 --> 00:49:32,319
Speaker 1: articulate the strong anti-communist and pro-American views of the new

1015
00:49:32,380 --> 00:49:35,940
Speaker 1: West German government. Condemning both sides, Niemöller met with leaders

1016
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:39,420
Speaker 1: of both NATO-oriented and communist states. Citing the horrors of

1017
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:41,860
Speaker 1: the Second World War and the apocalyptic possibility of a

1018
00:49:41,900 --> 00:49:45,180
Speaker 1: nuclear war, Niemöller became a champion for peace and disarmament

1019
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:49,620
Speaker 1: and dreamed of a united Germany. And that all sounds good, right?

1020
00:49:49,940 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 2: It does.

1021
00:49:50,989 --> 00:49:53,879
Speaker 1: That doesn't present the whole story, because while Martin did

1022
00:49:53,940 --> 00:49:56,910
Speaker 1: become a dogged and vocal advocate of German war crimes

1023
00:49:56,950 --> 00:50:00,839
Speaker 1: guilt and anti-war activist, He also used his notoriety to

1024
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:04,830
Speaker 1: kind of troll people, as Jorgrau writes. He railed about

1025
00:50:04,870 --> 00:50:07,370
Speaker 1: the treatment of the German people by the occupation forces.

1026
00:50:07,510 --> 00:50:11,070
Speaker 1: He fiercely opposed denazification as far too blunt and punitive

1027
00:50:11,110 --> 00:50:14,570
Speaker 1: an instrument, insisting it would only further victimize suffering Germans.

1028
00:50:14,969 --> 00:50:17,450
Speaker 1: There is a new anti-Semitism in Germany, he contended in

1029
00:50:17,489 --> 00:50:19,850
Speaker 1: the statement quoted by Simon. It is caused by the

1030
00:50:19,930 --> 00:50:23,430
Speaker 1: Americans letting Jews carry out the denazification. There were other

1031
00:50:23,469 --> 00:50:24,550
Speaker 1: such ugly outbursts.

1032
00:50:25,210 --> 00:50:27,830
Speaker 2: It's anti-Deutschism. Yeah, yeah.

1033
00:50:28,150 --> 00:50:32,370
Speaker 1: He's not better. And when I came across that passage,

1034
00:50:32,430 --> 00:50:34,270
Speaker 1: I couldn't help but think of a different passage that

1035
00:50:34,310 --> 00:50:36,250
Speaker 1: I read in the book God's Man back at the

1036
00:50:36,290 --> 00:50:39,240
Speaker 1: start of my research that goes, He is happiest when

1037
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:41,860
Speaker 1: a storm is raging about his ears is a phrase

1038
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:44,839
Speaker 1: often used about Martin Niemöller. And some have interpreted this

1039
00:50:44,860 --> 00:50:46,580
Speaker 1: to mean that he enjoys a tempest so much that

1040
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:51,720
Speaker 1: he provokes a controversy if none exists. And I think

1041
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:53,469
Speaker 1: this has done more than any other data point to

1042
00:50:53,570 --> 00:50:55,509
Speaker 1: solve one of the mysteries of Martin Niemöller for me,

1043
00:50:55,530 --> 00:50:58,359
Speaker 1: which is that above all else, he's kind of a troll, right?

1044
00:50:58,660 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was a little edgelord kid and he's still

1045
00:51:00,340 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 2: a little edgelord guy.

1046
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 1: He's kind of an edgelord.

1047
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1048
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:06,350
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, even when he's like largely right about stuff

1049
00:51:06,390 --> 00:51:08,630
Speaker 1: in the post-war period, he's still kind of a troll.

1050
00:51:09,150 --> 00:51:09,590
Speaker 3: Huh.

1051
00:51:09,750 --> 00:51:12,549
Speaker 1: And this last chapter in Martin's life is the one

1052
00:51:12,570 --> 00:51:15,779
Speaker 1: that people prefer to remember because it wasn't points pretty good.

1053
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 1: He travels regularly to the Soviet Union. He kind of

1054
00:51:19,140 --> 00:51:23,060
Speaker 1: gets pilled on communism, actually, because he sees what capitalism

1055
00:51:23,140 --> 00:51:25,779
Speaker 1: is doing. And he thinks the Christians in the USSR

1056
00:51:25,860 --> 00:51:29,299
Speaker 1: live a more wholesome and less materialist existence. And he's like, well,

1057
00:51:29,340 --> 00:51:32,510
Speaker 1: this seems better actually to me. Perhaps I was incorrect.

1058
00:51:33,450 --> 00:51:35,830
Speaker 2: It is closer to Catholic social doctrine. I don't know

1059
00:51:35,850 --> 00:51:38,549
Speaker 2: as much about Protestant social– but he was running the

1060
00:51:38,610 --> 00:51:39,410
Speaker 2: social charities.

1061
00:51:39,590 --> 00:51:42,390
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. It's not surprising he would feel that way

1062
00:51:42,430 --> 00:51:45,910
Speaker 1: to me. It's during this period that he writes his

1063
00:51:46,010 --> 00:51:49,790
Speaker 1: famous poem, although there's some debate about exactly when and

1064
00:51:49,850 --> 00:51:53,180
Speaker 1: whatnot it's finished. This post-war period, though, is kind of

1065
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:58,700
Speaker 1: when that comes out, probably. It's not famous in 1959

1066
00:51:58,700 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 1: or 1984, at least not famous. He has biographies published

1067
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:03,460
Speaker 1: in both of those years, and neither of them mention

1068
00:52:03,700 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 1: the poem, which is interesting to me. It was out

1069
00:52:06,180 --> 00:52:06,990
Speaker 1: by then, but it wasn't evident for him.

1070
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:07,850
Speaker 2: Because that's all he's known for now.

1071
00:52:08,340 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, exactly. His second wife would later claim the

1072
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 1: poem's origins dated to a meeting he had with German

1073
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:18,930
Speaker 1: students in 1946, who asked him, how did it happen?

1074
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:21,339
Speaker 1: But this may not be true. We don't really know.

1075
00:52:21,530 --> 00:52:22,689
Speaker 2: I think that's what I had heard.

1076
00:52:23,330 --> 00:52:24,890
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's just the common story. Which doesn't make it right.

1077
00:52:24,910 --> 00:52:26,569
Speaker 2: I just, that's what I had. No, no. You know?

1078
00:52:27,150 --> 00:52:27,610
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1079
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:29,719
Speaker 2: That's like the Wikipedia level of it. Yeah.

1080
00:52:29,739 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 1: Yep, yep, exactly. Because of his second wife who was

1081
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 1: not there for it, right? Martin Niemöller did not fully

1082
00:52:35,780 --> 00:52:41,810
Speaker 1: and unequivocally disavow anti-Semitism until a radio interview conducted in 1963.

1083
00:52:41,810 --> 00:52:44,290
Speaker 1: But during the 60s, he appeared on stage next to

1084
00:52:44,330 --> 00:52:47,450
Speaker 1: Martin Luther King Jr. and went to Vietnam to meet

1085
00:52:47,489 --> 00:52:50,110
Speaker 1: with Ho Chi Minh during the Vietnam War, where he

1086
00:52:50,170 --> 00:52:53,770
Speaker 1: endorsed the Vietnamese cause. It's correct, right? So he's not

1087
00:52:53,790 --> 00:52:55,870
Speaker 1: wrong about everything, you know?

1088
00:52:55,890 --> 00:52:56,870
Speaker 2: All right.

1089
00:52:57,330 --> 00:53:00,029
Speaker 1: He wound up taking what I have to call, he's

1090
00:53:00,090 --> 00:53:03,690
Speaker 1: not like wrong necessarily, I'm going to call it an

1091
00:53:03,790 --> 00:53:08,629
Speaker 1: uncomfortable stance on Palestine, as Jorgraus' article... That's hard. His

1092
00:53:09,290 --> 00:53:10,710
Speaker 1: complicated stance on.

1093
00:53:10,770 --> 00:53:10,950
Speaker 2: Okay.

1094
00:53:10,969 --> 00:53:13,650
Speaker 1: The morality of his stance on Palestine is really messy.

1095
00:53:13,730 --> 00:53:13,910
Speaker 2: Right.

1096
00:53:14,130 --> 00:53:17,530
Speaker 1: Here's from Jorgraus' article in The Nation. While Hockenos salutes

1097
00:53:17,570 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 1: the extraordinary transformation of this German ultra-conservative with his repellent

1098
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:23,620
Speaker 1: early views into someone with the courage to change deeply

1099
00:53:23,660 --> 00:53:27,240
Speaker 1: held beliefs, Zayman is not so forgiving. He traces unsettling

1100
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:31,700
Speaker 1: continuities with particularly acute sensitivity to Niemöller' s behavior regarding Jews...

1101
00:53:31,770 --> 00:53:34,150
Speaker 1: In all his globetrotting, for instance, the ambassador of God

1102
00:53:34,190 --> 00:53:37,109
Speaker 1: somehow never set foot in Israel. And I think that's

1103
00:53:37,150 --> 00:53:39,629
Speaker 1: a silly thing to judge someone as an anti-Semite for.

1104
00:53:39,930 --> 00:53:43,900
Speaker 1: I don't agree with Zeman that that matters. However, Martin's

1105
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:49,780
Speaker 1: specific comments defending the Palestinian cause are not ideal, right?

1106
00:53:50,180 --> 00:53:51,219
Speaker 2: A classic problem.

1107
00:53:51,700 --> 00:53:55,180
Speaker 1: Yeah. Zeman indicts Niemöller for remarks such as saying in

1108
00:53:55,180 --> 00:53:57,450
Speaker 1: 1963 that he couldn't hold it against Arabs if they

1109
00:53:57,489 --> 00:53:59,940
Speaker 1: felt threatened and under attack by the Jewish state. Or

1110
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:02,580
Speaker 1: in 1967, privately expressing that if he were an Arab,

1111
00:54:02,820 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 1: he'd be anti-Semitic about an alien people founding a state

1112
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 1: on his soil. And, like, you don't have to be

1113
00:54:07,700 --> 00:54:10,470
Speaker 1: anti-Semitic to see why people don't like an army kicking

1114
00:54:10,489 --> 00:54:12,469
Speaker 1: them out of their home. And the fact that he's like, oh,

1115
00:54:12,510 --> 00:54:14,670
Speaker 1: I get why they'd be anti-Semitic, because he has to

1116
00:54:14,710 --> 00:54:15,710
Speaker 1: think of things in that way.

1117
00:54:16,090 --> 00:54:16,230
Speaker 2: Right.

1118
00:54:16,250 --> 00:54:18,089
Speaker 1: Totally. He's telling the truth. That's not necessary at all.

1119
00:54:18,530 --> 00:54:22,400
Speaker 2: Right. And it's damning that that's the way he presents it.

1120
00:54:22,890 --> 00:54:25,170
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Just like, couldn't you just be pissed that

1121
00:54:25,190 --> 00:54:27,270
Speaker 1: they're kicking you out of your home and like shooting

1122
00:54:27,290 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 1: your guys? Do you have to be a racist about it? Yeah.

1123
00:54:31,020 --> 00:54:33,240
Speaker 1: I don't know that I think I don't think that's necessary, Martin.

1124
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:34,440
Speaker 2: Totally.

1125
00:54:34,900 --> 00:54:36,819
Speaker 1: But it is it is very telling that that's how

1126
00:54:36,890 --> 00:54:38,109
Speaker 1: he talks about it. Right.

1127
00:54:39,070 --> 00:54:40,589
Speaker 2: You know, you can only go so far from what

1128
00:54:40,610 --> 00:54:43,110
Speaker 2: you start where you start, I guess. Yeah.

1129
00:54:44,130 --> 00:54:47,850
Speaker 1: There is evidence that he never left his bigotry completely behind.

1130
00:54:47,930 --> 00:54:50,140
Speaker 1: He does seem to have become at least a committed

1131
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:53,399
Speaker 1: anti-authoritarian by the end of his life. At age 90

1132
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 1: in 1982, Niemöller stated, an ultra-conservative who wanted the Kaiser

1133
00:54:58,100 --> 00:55:00,779
Speaker 1: to come back, and now I am a revolutionary. I

1134
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:02,900
Speaker 1: really mean that. If I live to be 100, I

1135
00:55:02,940 --> 00:55:06,180
Speaker 1: shall maybe be an anarchist. He never made it that far,

1136
00:55:06,500 --> 00:55:07,610
Speaker 1: dying two years later in 1984.

1137
00:55:07,590 --> 00:55:07,950
Speaker 2: But, yeah. Wow.

1138
00:55:10,690 --> 00:55:12,250
Speaker 1: That's the Martin Niemöller story.

1139
00:55:12,650 --> 00:55:15,089
Speaker 2: Shit. This is fascinating to me.

1140
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:16,739
Speaker 1: Really interesting.

1141
00:55:17,140 --> 00:55:21,700
Speaker 2: I like his turn. Not because late, he's right. I mean,

1142
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 2: it's the right turn for him to have made. But

1143
00:55:24,620 --> 00:55:29,660
Speaker 2: I do get the sense that he thinks about his

1144
00:55:29,700 --> 00:55:33,819
Speaker 2: positions and tries to make them morally consistent and is just, like,

1145
00:55:34,590 --> 00:55:35,830
Speaker 2: wrong a lot.

1146
00:55:35,850 --> 00:55:37,010
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot.

1147
00:55:37,090 --> 00:55:41,129
Speaker 2: But he, like... But because he's coming from a like,

1148
00:55:42,090 --> 00:55:44,719
Speaker 2: like his moral positions do get him in trouble. I

1149
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 2: haven't spent that long in prison, you know? Yeah.

1150
00:55:47,580 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 1: And my beliefs are substantially closer. That's that he tried

1151
00:55:50,540 --> 00:55:53,840
Speaker 1: to get out of prison by fighting for the Nazis. Yeah, no, totally.

1152
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:58,870
Speaker 2: No, totally. No, like, I don't want to say like,

1153
00:55:59,170 --> 00:56:05,049
Speaker 2: is good man, right? No. But like, I prefer when

1154
00:56:05,090 --> 00:56:07,800
Speaker 2: my enemies are morally consistent because I can respect it.

1155
00:56:08,140 --> 00:56:10,460
Speaker 2: I can respect it and fight it, you know? But

1156
00:56:10,540 --> 00:56:12,460
Speaker 2: most of the time, most people.

1157
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:13,980
Speaker 1: They don't believe in shit but power.

1158
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And he does... He has beliefs. He thought

1159
00:56:17,700 --> 00:56:22,620
Speaker 2: he believed in power as a moral imperative, a theological imperative.

1160
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:27,510
Speaker 2: And then he was like, oh, I've seen why I'm wrong. Yeah.

1161
00:56:27,850 --> 00:56:31,730
Speaker 2: So to defend the poem, like, the thing that is

1162
00:56:31,770 --> 00:56:34,110
Speaker 2: really interesting to me about the poem is I think,

1163
00:56:34,350 --> 00:56:38,089
Speaker 2: and I could be wrong, I think that that poem...

1164
00:56:38,810 --> 00:56:44,270
Speaker 2: has saved uncountable lives. I think we look at that poem,

1165
00:56:44,469 --> 00:56:46,350
Speaker 2: we don't think about the man at all anymore, right?

1166
00:56:46,430 --> 00:56:48,530
Speaker 2: I don't know that there's two movies about this man.

1167
00:56:48,940 --> 00:56:51,819
Speaker 2: You know, I couldn't remember his name if you asked me, like,

1168
00:56:51,940 --> 00:56:55,180
Speaker 2: right now. I mean, I could tell you Martin Niemöller.

1169
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:56,500
Speaker 1: Niemöller, yeah.

1170
00:56:56,820 --> 00:56:59,790
Speaker 2: But, like... There's so many people who are like, nah, man,

1171
00:56:59,810 --> 00:57:02,750
Speaker 2: we read the poem. We're not falling for this shit again. Right? Like,

1172
00:57:03,350 --> 00:57:06,210
Speaker 2: going to Minneapolis and talking to people, it's the sense

1173
00:57:06,270 --> 00:57:10,270
Speaker 2: of like, nah, man, we've read this. We know what

1174
00:57:10,290 --> 00:57:12,370
Speaker 2: this is about. First they come for it, then they

1175
00:57:12,410 --> 00:57:15,730
Speaker 2: come for it. You have to speak up. So, and

1176
00:57:15,850 --> 00:57:18,200
Speaker 2: I don't know if I believe total separate art from

1177
00:57:18,300 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 2: artist kind of thing. I, like, literally don't know how

1178
00:57:21,420 --> 00:57:22,820
Speaker 2: I feel about that and I hate when people try

1179
00:57:22,860 --> 00:57:27,340
Speaker 2: and make me have an opinion about it. But, like, it, that,

1180
00:57:27,900 --> 00:57:33,710
Speaker 2: poem does matter you can you can just yeah go

1181
00:57:33,730 --> 00:57:34,550
Speaker 2: ahead that that's.

1182
00:57:34,390 --> 00:57:36,850
Speaker 1: Why i don't i don't know that i think it

1183
00:57:36,910 --> 00:57:39,030
Speaker 1: matters like i don't know that i i think it

1184
00:57:39,610 --> 00:57:41,860
Speaker 1: i don't know that it stopped much I think it

1185
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:45,560
Speaker 1: might be a poem that affects and is valued by

1186
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:48,380
Speaker 1: people who are already going to react the right way

1187
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:49,540
Speaker 1: to the threat of fascism.

1188
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:50,800
Speaker 2: Maybe.

1189
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:54,190
Speaker 1: I don't know if I think it's caused any of that.

1190
00:57:54,730 --> 00:57:58,470
Speaker 1: And I think the further point, maybe it has in

1191
00:57:58,510 --> 00:58:02,470
Speaker 1: his post-war life, the activism, the anti-nuclear stuff, the anti-war stuff,

1192
00:58:02,490 --> 00:58:03,250
Speaker 1: that's good.

1193
00:58:03,270 --> 00:58:03,410
Speaker 2: Can it?

1194
00:58:05,570 --> 00:58:08,350
Speaker 1: Does it make up for the fact that he did

1195
00:58:08,450 --> 00:58:11,630
Speaker 1: not realize he was wrong until he had been beaten

1196
00:58:11,790 --> 00:58:14,770
Speaker 1: and had the piles of corpses shoved literally in front

1197
00:58:14,810 --> 00:58:16,290
Speaker 1: of his face? Right.

1198
00:58:17,050 --> 00:58:19,189
Speaker 2: And for me, no, I don't think we should forgive

1199
00:58:19,230 --> 00:58:19,689
Speaker 2: him or not.

1200
00:58:20,350 --> 00:58:24,310
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess it from a moral condemnation standpoint, I

1201
00:58:24,350 --> 00:58:28,870
Speaker 1: think before 2024, I probably would have been more open

1202
00:58:28,950 --> 00:58:33,670
Speaker 1: minded about coming to a better opinion of Martin. And

1203
00:58:33,970 --> 00:58:36,010
Speaker 1: now I'm kind of like, I just sort of wish,

1204
00:58:36,810 --> 00:58:38,790
Speaker 1: I kind of just wish you'd gotten hit by a bomb,

1205
00:58:39,150 --> 00:58:44,209
Speaker 1: you know? I wish they'd fucking, a B-52 had rolled

1206
00:58:44,250 --> 00:58:46,810
Speaker 1: over your ass or something right at the end of

1207
00:58:46,830 --> 00:58:49,930
Speaker 1: the war. Like, I don't, I do not, I don't

1208
00:58:49,970 --> 00:58:52,110
Speaker 1: have a lot of charity in my heart for the

1209
00:58:52,530 --> 00:58:55,690
Speaker 1: people like this anymore. And perhaps I should. That may

1210
00:58:55,730 --> 00:58:59,550
Speaker 1: just be a sign that I have gotten too angry

1211
00:58:59,830 --> 00:59:04,060
Speaker 1: and bitter in my dotage. I'm willing to admit that.

1212
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:08,370
Speaker 2: I mean, it's real easy and possibly useful to be

1213
00:59:08,410 --> 00:59:09,870
Speaker 2: really angry right now. I'm not.

1214
00:59:09,890 --> 00:59:09,970
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1215
00:59:10,560 --> 00:59:15,990
Speaker 2: Like yeah but i also like i want everyone to

1216
00:59:16,050 --> 00:59:19,530
Speaker 2: leave the nazi side right now right absolutely and so

1217
00:59:19,750 --> 00:59:24,070
Speaker 2: in order to do that we have to let them leave.

1218
00:59:23,850 --> 00:59:28,420
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah But we are not at 1945. Totally. So

1219
00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:32,310
Speaker 1: that is where I come from. I am still willing

1220
00:59:32,350 --> 00:59:34,170
Speaker 1: to take on people who are willing to get off

1221
00:59:34,230 --> 00:59:40,350
Speaker 1: the fascism train. But that is a limited time offer, folks.

1222
00:59:40,990 --> 00:59:45,939
Speaker 2: The fact that he did the rape, it just being

1223
00:59:46,100 --> 00:59:48,820
Speaker 2: enough that you're like, no, you helped Hitler come to power.

1224
00:59:48,860 --> 00:59:51,740
Speaker 2: You helped not... not a major instrument of it, but

1225
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:55,600
Speaker 2: you did what you could. You pulled with the team

1226
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:58,450
Speaker 2: in order to try and get, you know, one of

1227
00:59:58,490 --> 01:00:02,810
Speaker 2: the worst things that's ever happened in human society to happen. Like,

1228
01:00:03,510 --> 01:00:06,270
Speaker 2: being able... I have no problem with just being like, no,

1229
01:00:06,290 --> 01:00:09,730
Speaker 2: you're done. Like, I'm not... I fully understand where people

1230
01:00:09,750 --> 01:00:11,630
Speaker 2: would be coming from about it. But I just, like,

1231
01:00:12,310 --> 01:00:20,840
Speaker 2: I'm interested in his... how a morally consistent but wrong person... Yeah. Uh, yeah,

1232
01:00:21,420 --> 01:00:21,840
Speaker 2: go ahead.

1233
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:24,420
Speaker 1: I mean, and that is the fascinating thing about him

1234
01:00:24,460 --> 01:00:25,780
Speaker 1: is you do get, and one of the things I

1235
01:00:25,820 --> 01:00:28,800
Speaker 1: like about Hawkenos' book and Zeman's book is you get

1236
01:00:29,430 --> 01:00:33,290
Speaker 1: a look at how this guy keeps trying to make,

1237
01:00:33,570 --> 01:00:36,330
Speaker 1: keep a consistent worldview in his head as the evidence

1238
01:00:36,430 --> 01:00:40,130
Speaker 1: around him builds that he's completely wrong about everything he believes.

1239
01:00:40,810 --> 01:00:42,830
Speaker 1: And he does eventually seem to be like, I was

1240
01:00:42,970 --> 01:00:46,740
Speaker 1: so fucking wrong. Yeah. But also, you know, in 1959,

1241
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:48,860
Speaker 1: he's still covering up that he's killing, that he murdered

1242
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:51,180
Speaker 1: the you know, drowning sailors.

1243
01:00:51,220 --> 01:00:51,680
Speaker 2: No, you're right.

1244
01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:52,760
Speaker 1: You know? No, that's true.

1245
01:00:52,980 --> 01:00:56,160
Speaker 2: Cause he was, cause he, okay. He is inconsistent on this, right?

1246
01:00:56,180 --> 01:00:58,880
Speaker 2: Because sometimes he's not perfectly consistent. He's like, no, no,

1247
01:00:58,940 --> 01:01:02,040
Speaker 2: I did help Hitler. It wasn't so great. But he lies.

1248
01:01:02,580 --> 01:01:02,720
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1249
01:01:02,740 --> 01:01:05,400
Speaker 2: He's like, oh no, I was great on that U-boat.

1250
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:07,100
Speaker 2: Like they're glad I was there.

1251
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:08,160
Speaker 1: That was fine.

1252
01:01:08,180 --> 01:01:08,940
Speaker 2: I saved seven of them.

1253
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:10,820
Speaker 1: It was a good thing. It was a good, yeah,

1254
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:12,680
Speaker 1: it was, it was, I stopped the killing.

1255
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:16,180
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. No, no, I, I, I'm not trying to

1256
01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:17,540
Speaker 2: come out pro this guy.

1257
01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:19,170
Speaker 1: I just, I'm fascinated.

1258
01:01:19,190 --> 01:01:19,930
Speaker 2: I brought you on.

1259
01:01:19,970 --> 01:01:22,590
Speaker 1: Cause I, I wanted that this conversation at the end

1260
01:01:22,650 --> 01:01:25,780
Speaker 1: about like, where do we land on Martin Niemöller? Cause I, I,

1261
01:01:26,350 --> 01:01:30,000
Speaker 1: I'm very, I, I, I'm pretty frustrated with the fella. Um,

1262
01:01:31,340 --> 01:01:33,640
Speaker 1: but I do find it fascinating. His admission that like,

1263
01:01:34,620 --> 01:01:36,820
Speaker 1: even if he couldn't quite make himself into an anarchist,

1264
01:01:36,980 --> 01:01:39,140
Speaker 1: like I could, he's, I can see at 90 that

1265
01:01:39,180 --> 01:01:41,940
Speaker 1: that's probably close to the right thing that I've ever

1266
01:01:41,980 --> 01:01:44,900
Speaker 1: gotten in my life. Yeah. Maybe I'll get there in

1267
01:01:44,940 --> 01:01:45,250
Speaker 1: another 10.

1268
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:49,360
Speaker 2: Cause he's just like, Oh, I am moving away from authoritarianism.

1269
01:01:49,430 --> 01:01:51,910
Speaker 2: And that is the actual direction I should be taking

1270
01:01:51,950 --> 01:01:52,810
Speaker 2: my entire life.

1271
01:01:53,170 --> 01:01:56,190
Speaker 1: Every power structure I've endorsed has proven wrong.

1272
01:01:56,410 --> 01:01:58,130
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.

1273
01:01:59,730 --> 01:02:02,070
Speaker 1: Um, maybe that's the problem.

1274
01:02:02,210 --> 01:02:05,990
Speaker 2: But if, But if like a centrist or especially like

1275
01:02:06,050 --> 01:02:08,400
Speaker 2: a leftist had written that poem, it would be meaningless.

1276
01:02:09,070 --> 01:02:11,210
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is meaningful.

1277
01:02:11,470 --> 01:02:15,760
Speaker 2: Now, I was expecting him to be what I first thought,

1278
01:02:15,820 --> 01:02:19,300
Speaker 2: which was the standing around, like, the good German who

1279
01:02:19,340 --> 01:02:21,180
Speaker 2: just went along. That's what I had thought.

1280
01:02:21,220 --> 01:02:23,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe he voted for Hitler holding his nose once,

1281
01:02:23,820 --> 01:02:27,480
Speaker 1: but didn't ever really get, like, supported in the streets, certainly.

1282
01:02:27,500 --> 01:02:28,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally.

1283
01:02:28,620 --> 01:02:30,850
Speaker 1: You're like, no, this guy probably shot unarmed people.

1284
01:02:31,150 --> 01:02:33,770
Speaker 2: Put down a revolution, like, yeah, like.

1285
01:02:34,390 --> 01:02:38,430
Speaker 3: Not boat boy shouting, I fucking love Hitler from jail.

1286
01:02:38,470 --> 01:02:39,130
Speaker 2: That guy.

1287
01:02:39,350 --> 01:02:40,910
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally.

1288
01:02:41,330 --> 01:02:43,340
Speaker 2: I swear he'd let me out if he just knew

1289
01:02:43,380 --> 01:02:44,459
Speaker 2: what a great guy I was.

1290
01:02:44,660 --> 01:02:45,920
Speaker 1: If he knew how much I liked him.

1291
01:02:46,240 --> 01:02:46,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1292
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:47,620
Speaker 1: Fuck.

1293
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:50,540
Speaker 2: This is not a boring man.

1294
01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:51,620
Speaker 3: No, no.

1295
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:54,300
Speaker 1: He does live quite a life. He does live quite

1296
01:02:54,340 --> 01:02:54,600
Speaker 1: a life.

1297
01:02:56,250 --> 01:02:57,910
Speaker 2: It would have been better if he either made it

1298
01:02:57,950 --> 01:03:01,990
Speaker 2: to 100 or died when he was like 15. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

1299
01:03:03,210 --> 01:03:05,310
Speaker 1: Yeah, World War I death would have been great for him.

1300
01:03:05,510 --> 01:03:07,660
Speaker 2: What if his brother had survived instead of him? The

1301
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 2: guy with the good name.

1302
01:03:08,820 --> 01:03:11,640
Speaker 1: Gerhard would have done us a solid. Gerhard would have

1303
01:03:11,660 --> 01:03:14,040
Speaker 1: been saving people left and right. He would have stopped

1304
01:03:14,060 --> 01:03:16,560
Speaker 1: this Hitler stuff. Like Mark Wahlberg if he'd been at 9-11.

1305
01:03:18,380 --> 01:03:19,740
Speaker 1: If only Gerhard had been there.

1306
01:03:19,760 --> 01:03:27,220
Speaker 2: We got a Margaret Plugables on that note. Christ, Robert.

1307
01:03:27,540 --> 01:03:29,979
Speaker 2: If you want to hear me talk about complicated people

1308
01:03:30,020 --> 01:03:31,650
Speaker 2: where I try and talk about the good they did,

1309
01:03:32,090 --> 01:03:33,790
Speaker 2: I have a podcast called Cool People Who Did Cool

1310
01:03:33,830 --> 01:03:36,670
Speaker 2: Stuff where it always starts with people who people think

1311
01:03:36,710 --> 01:03:39,410
Speaker 2: are heroes and then I'm like, well, they're like 70% heroes.

1312
01:03:39,950 --> 01:03:42,390
Speaker 2: And it's on this very network. I also have a

1313
01:03:42,410 --> 01:03:45,140
Speaker 2: podcast where I read fiction to you called Cool Zone

1314
01:03:45,180 --> 01:03:48,450
Speaker 2: Media Book Club. And I write books, and one of

1315
01:03:48,490 --> 01:03:50,710
Speaker 2: my books is about a trans witch, and the book

1316
01:03:50,770 --> 01:03:54,030
Speaker 2: is called The Sapling Cage. And it's legally distinct from YA.

1317
01:03:54,070 --> 01:03:56,930
Speaker 2: It's a crossover book because of the way that I

1318
01:03:56,990 --> 01:04:01,590
Speaker 2: write characters somehow disqualifying it from YA, even though it's

1319
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:03,620
Speaker 2: a coming-of-age story about a young trans witch.

1320
01:04:04,220 --> 01:04:08,180
Speaker 1: I have some frustrations with how people define YA. Yeah.

1321
01:04:08,820 --> 01:04:10,020
Speaker 2: So do a lot of my readers. A lot of

1322
01:04:10,060 --> 01:04:12,260
Speaker 2: my readers are like, oh, thank God, a fucking protagonist

1323
01:04:12,300 --> 01:04:15,620
Speaker 2: I don't want to strangle. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, you can

1324
01:04:15,640 --> 01:04:16,680
Speaker 2: check me out, Margaret Kiljoy.

1325
01:04:16,700 --> 01:04:17,600
Speaker 1: I'm on the internet.

1326
01:04:17,900 --> 01:04:18,500
Speaker 2: I wish I wasn't.

1327
01:04:19,010 --> 01:04:22,710
Speaker 1: Check out The Sapling Cage. Great book. Check out whatever

1328
01:04:22,770 --> 01:04:25,330
Speaker 1: episode we do next, which won't be on Martin Niemöller,

1329
01:04:25,350 --> 01:04:27,240
Speaker 1: because we already did him, you know?

1330
01:04:27,520 --> 01:04:27,960
Speaker 2: Hell yeah. Maybe.

1331
01:04:28,530 --> 01:04:31,190
Speaker 1: Maybe we'll finally do the Jim Henson episodes.

1332
01:04:31,390 --> 01:04:32,050
Speaker 2: No.

1333
01:04:32,270 --> 01:04:34,430
Speaker 1: Jim was nice. Jim was nice. Jim was nice. That's

1334
01:04:34,450 --> 01:04:37,550
Speaker 1: just a bit. That's just a bit. Good Lord.

1335
01:04:37,650 --> 01:04:39,700
Speaker 2: No, I was terrified that you know something I don't.

1336
01:04:40,070 --> 01:04:42,340
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no. Other than he probably should have

1337
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:44,900
Speaker 1: gone to the doctor faster, unfortunately.

1338
01:04:45,100 --> 01:04:45,280
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1339
01:04:45,580 --> 01:04:46,360
Speaker 1: All right. We're done.

1340
01:04:46,660 --> 01:04:46,880
Speaker 2: Bye.

1341
01:04:50,580 --> 01:04:53,090
Speaker 3: Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media.

1342
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:56,630
Speaker 3: For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com.

1343
01:04:57,380 --> 01:05:00,020
Speaker 3: or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1344
01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:03,700
Speaker 3: or wherever you get your podcasts. Full video episodes of

1345
01:05:03,720 --> 01:05:06,490
Speaker 3: Behind the Bastards are now streaming on Netflix, dropping every

1346
01:05:06,550 --> 01:05:09,170
Speaker 3: Tuesday and Thursday. Hit Remind Me on Netflix so you

1347
01:05:09,230 --> 01:05:12,670
Speaker 3: don't miss an episode. For clips and our older episode catalog,

1348
01:05:12,750 --> 01:05:16,650
Speaker 3: continue to subscribe to our YouTube channel, youtube.com slash at

1349
01:05:16,690 --> 01:05:21,390
Speaker 3: Behind the Bastards. We love about 40% of you, statistically speaking.