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Speaker 1: Ridiculous crime. It's a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey Elizabeth, Hey Zaren over here?

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Speaker 3: Hey? Oh wait where?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Oh over there? How are you doing?

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Speaker 2: I got a question for you.

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Speaker 3: These sunglasses are really dark.

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Speaker 2: They're cool looking, though, they're super cool. What are the stars?

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Speaker 2: You look like Bootsy Collins?

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Speaker 3: You like the sunset printed in a hologram on the lens.

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Speaker 2: It's really dope. Those like those AI, That's what that is.

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Speaker 3: It's I am on Aiah.

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Speaker 4: I am.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate that.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, me too.

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Speaker 2: Take it till you can make it right.

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Speaker 3: An's sister.

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Speaker 2: So, I got a question for you. Do you know

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Speaker 2: what's ridiculous?

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Speaker 3: Do I do know it's ridiculous? First, I gotta just

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Speaker 3: ask you a quick question.

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Speaker 2: Oh you're gonna do a reverse too, card you know

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Speaker 2: what's ridiculous.

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Speaker 3: Do you own cowboy boots?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? The ones that I really like and one that

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Speaker 2: like I should give away.

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Speaker 3: Okay. Do you wear them all the time?

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Speaker 2: Not often enough? I don't have cause you're not gonna

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Speaker 2: wear them around the house only not gonna wear them

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Speaker 2: like the safe way. Yeah. I just wear them at

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Speaker 2: the beach. Yeah, it's a good look.

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Speaker 3: Are you in the market for like a new pair

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Speaker 3: coup with it.

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Speaker 2: I actually am I'm looking forward to.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, how do you feel about cowboy boots made in Texas?

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Speaker 2: Problem with that?

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Speaker 3: I think it's great. I mean that's like where they're from, right,

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Speaker 3: are invented shoes were invented in Texas. Yes. Now there's

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Speaker 3: this company, to Covas tech of Us, toko Us.

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Speaker 2: I'm supporting you.

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Speaker 3: T e c o v A s in which I

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Speaker 3: thought would be like to Kova's, but it's not. It's

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Speaker 3: toke of Us. It is AnyWho. They it's a cowboy

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Speaker 3: boot company and their boots run like three four hundred dollars,

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Speaker 3: which I think is like a good solid They're not

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Speaker 3: cheap o' yet You're not going to run and have

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Speaker 3: like your little toe come out of a split in

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Speaker 3: the side of it, which would be so embarrassing and

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Speaker 3: probably painful. Anyway, So they have these new boots that

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Speaker 3: they're introducing, and they're rooted in Texas with a flair

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Speaker 3: for the bold, their hands around with all the quality

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Speaker 3: you expect from a tokouse dress boot. It's the material

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Speaker 3: that's a little bit different.

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Speaker 2: What is a material? Are we like past ostrich skin

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Speaker 2: and alligator.

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Speaker 3: And human skin.

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Speaker 2: No, it's green gators.

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Speaker 3: No, it's it's the material that they used to make

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Speaker 3: booths at Chili's, the fast casual restaurant.

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Speaker 2: Like baby Back, Baby Back Baby, I got rip.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, those the red booth they have it Chilis.

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Speaker 2: Never don't like vinyl.

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Speaker 3: I guess I don't know. I've not been in the Chili's.

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Speaker 3: I think maybe once. I don't really recall it. No,

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Speaker 3: what I'm looking at photos here and there, so it's

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Speaker 3: like a deep red anyway, they've teamed up. They're making

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Speaker 3: booth boots, boots, boot and scooty booty AnyWho. So there's

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Speaker 3: a men's version, in a women's version, it's a chili

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Speaker 3: pepper inlay, the custom Chili's toe bug. I don't know

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Speaker 3: what that.

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Speaker 2: By the way, this is a mash up and I'm disappointed.

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Speaker 3: And a bold chaft pattern, which is what you know,

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Speaker 3: anyone wants to hear it. And then Goodyear welded leather,

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Speaker 3: sold and built to stand out like a Texas sunset.

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Speaker 3: So you didn't know you needed those, but you do.

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Speaker 3: And so they dropped on July twenty ninth. I don't

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Speaker 3: know if there's still some available there only you can

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Speaker 3: only get them online, so you can't go like test

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Speaker 3: drive them and see how fast you can run in them.

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Speaker 2: When you're in the store, you're a little kid.

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Speaker 3: The men's and women's boots run three hundred and forty

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Speaker 3: five a pair. There's also a belt if you're not

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Speaker 3: like fully committed, that's.

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Speaker 2: Seventy five dollars fully committed.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but that was inspired by vintage Chili's uniforms and

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Speaker 3: crafted from booth material.

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Speaker 2: These things you find, these things I find anybody like.

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Speaker 2: I've never seen them in the wild, not a single

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Speaker 2: thing you've ever mentioned to me. Have I ever seen anyone?

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Speaker 2: And I go to airports, I see like across country

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Speaker 2: as a airport country.

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Speaker 3: I can tell you something. I look around, I watch

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Speaker 3: the news. I got my finger on the pulse, I

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Speaker 3: bet you do. I look at these things on the internet,

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Speaker 3: and I say to myself over and over again, end

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Speaker 3: of the Empire.

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Speaker 2: I thought you said yourself screws Zaren.

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Speaker 3: Well there's also that, But like when you see these things,

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Speaker 3: and these are all just the sign posts the end

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Speaker 3: of the empire, you better believe it.

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Speaker 2: We're way past bread and circuses.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, no, we weren't Chile's.

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Speaker 2: Booth boots, I mean running out of a crime may. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: well I got one for you, yes, and it's a

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Speaker 2: good one. Okay. This one actually is a question, well

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Speaker 2: not really, it's a statement, but it's kind of a question.

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Speaker 2: When you go to court to prove your innocence and

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Speaker 2: the judge makes you do a crime to prove that

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Speaker 2: you didn't do a different crime, that's that's ridiculous, right, because.

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Speaker 3: Confusing and ridiculous. And I love it.

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Speaker 2: This is Ridiculous Crime, a podcast about absurd and outrageous capers, heists,

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Speaker 2: and cons. It's always ninety nine percent murder free. And

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Speaker 2: what's that one hundred percent ridiculous?

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Speaker 3: One hundred percent?

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Speaker 2: Yo, Elizabeth Yo, MTV raps. Have I got a wild

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Speaker 2: bit of jurisprudence for you today?

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Speaker 3: Love this?

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Speaker 2: I love this one because of how rare it is

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Speaker 2: that a judge asks you to do a crime to

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Speaker 2: prove your innocence for a.

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Speaker 3: Different crime, or just to do a crime in general.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like in court, do the crime. Let me see

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Speaker 2: you do the crime.

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Speaker 4: That guy.

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Speaker 2: So this one is about a famous art forger, or

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Speaker 2: rather I should say infamous. Now before we start, I

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Speaker 2: have a quick question, just for some table setting. What

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Speaker 2: do you know about the painter at Johannes.

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Speaker 3: Vermiir Ummm, he's dead, very.

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Speaker 2: Good, ding ding ding silver star for her. Now many

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Speaker 2: know the name of Vermir right, and in the last

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Speaker 2: two decades, his most famous work has been the subject

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Speaker 2: of a book by the author Tracy Chevalier called The

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Speaker 2: Girl with a Pearl Ring. Okay, the book is not

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Speaker 2: about Vermire as much as it's about the subject of

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Speaker 2: his most famous painting, The Girl. Yeah. The story focus

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Speaker 2: is on the sixteen year old Dutch girl named Grie.

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Speaker 2: She's hired to be a maid for the Vermire household.

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Speaker 2: And then it's a tale as old as time. Elizabeth,

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Speaker 2: middle aged artist, becomes entranced by her. He's enchanted by

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Speaker 2: her demeanor. She's quiet, intelligent, eyed, working class girl. In

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Speaker 2: the painter he does what should surprise no one. He

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Speaker 2: nearly loses his happy home as he falls for her

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Speaker 2: and brings her into his studio and eventually asked her

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Speaker 2: to pose for his most famous work of art.

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Speaker 3: He got to love and imbalance of power right now.

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Speaker 2: That same story also became a movie with the title.

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Speaker 2: It starred Scarlett Johansson right right, right, scarleto yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 2: everybody in the all.

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Speaker 3: Of her friends call her that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And also I'm not one of her friends.

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Speaker 2: Colin Firth, mister Darcy vermiir cofir. Now, did you see

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Speaker 2: that movie A Girl with a earlier?

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Speaker 4: You know?

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Speaker 3: I may have, I may have not. I'm gonna guess no,

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Speaker 3: I don't think you did. It's like, have you been

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Speaker 3: in a Chili's? I don't think so. Have you seen

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Speaker 3: that movie? I don't think so.

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Speaker 2: Now I did not see it back in two thousand

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Speaker 2: and three when it came out.

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Speaker 3: Was that when he came out?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because the question of willy sixteen year old girl

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Speaker 2: remained the muse or become the lover of a middle

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Speaker 2: aged painter held no charm for me. Yeah. In Anthony

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Speaker 2: Lane's review for The New Yorker, he compared this film

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Speaker 2: to the work of stuffing dead animals. As Lane writes

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Speaker 2: in his review of the rather beautifully shot film, I

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Speaker 2: have to admit is that quote. The danger with such

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Speaker 2: beautifying efforts is that it risks turning cinema into a

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Speaker 2: branch of taxidermy. Oh interesting, Yeah, which I'm fairly certain

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Speaker 2: it's not. Meant as a compliment now. In her review

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Speaker 2: for the Atlanta Weekly, Creative Loafing, film critic Felicia Feaster

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Speaker 2: wrote that quote Johansson floats through the film as a beautiful,

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Speaker 2: pale question mark, the perfect projection for the fantasies of

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Speaker 2: the men around her again two thousand and three, so

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Speaker 2: kind of par for the course.

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Speaker 3: I love that we're just like it was a different time.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't that long, Yeah it was, Nick. There are

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Speaker 2: children who were born then, or people in college. We

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Speaker 2: were born then, now children who were born people in

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Speaker 2: college are children whatever.

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Speaker 3: Twenty year old little bit, which.

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Speaker 2: This kind of gets at Vermier's whole deal, right, you

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Speaker 2: know this the seventeenth century Dutch painter. He's mostly known

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Speaker 2: for his portraits of women, usually alone, set typically in

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Speaker 2: a domestic setting, and they're captured in ethereal light and

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Speaker 2: rendered in primary colors red, yellow, blue, Which is also

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Speaker 2: why I don't go Vermere. It's just not my bag.

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Speaker 2: Why don't I like vermir great question, Elizabeth. It's because

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Speaker 2: I like women as people, you know, like I guess,

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Speaker 2: human beings, not as like subjects frozen in time to

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Speaker 2: be gawkeed at, like The most they can offer us

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Speaker 2: is how they beautified the world of men. Now, seeing

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Speaker 2: young women doing domestic chores as light renders them luminous

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Speaker 2: and exquisite just doesn't do anything for me. Now. The

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Speaker 2: dude's catalog, though, of masterpieces, it counts a thirty six

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Speaker 2: paintings that's in his life's work. Now, twenty one of

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Speaker 2: them feature young women doing mundane task like cooking, cleaning, sewing.

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Speaker 2: And look how the light falls on some Dutch milk

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Speaker 2: maid's porcelain beauty as she stares rather vacantly, almost sensuously.

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Speaker 2: You see my points?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the women, they show no signs of real interiority,

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Speaker 2: not like on the mona Lisa does, or inner life

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Speaker 2: of their own. Basically, it's really just that skin deep.

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Speaker 2: The art blog I found this art blog museum Hack.

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Speaker 2: They sarcastically put it, quote a male artist sexualizing women

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Speaker 2: who are just doing their damn jobs. Groundbreaking, But I digress.

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Speaker 2: So the important point is that Johannes Vermir painted his

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Speaker 2: master works way back in the sixteen hundreds, right, So

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Speaker 2: since he's painted his masterpieces some three and a half

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Speaker 2: centuries ago, not much is known about the artist, and

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Speaker 2: we do know, in his lifetime he painted forty five paintings,

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Speaker 2: and thirty six of them still, you know, continue to

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Speaker 2: exist now in the twenty first century in this size

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Speaker 2: Are they all.

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Speaker 3: Like thirty six bangers or are they like for.

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Speaker 2: The most part, Yeah, people all think they'd pretty dope

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Speaker 2: for the most part. Now in the sizeable gap between

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Speaker 2: thirty six and forty five, you know that nine paintings,

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Speaker 2: and also what is known about him and what is unknown?

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Speaker 2: What was created, what was lost? This is where our

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Speaker 2: story takes place. Yes, now enter the subject of today's story,

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Speaker 2: another Dutch painter whose name is Han van meergern Okay. Now.

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Speaker 2: He was born in the Netherlands way back in eighteen

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Speaker 2: eighty nine. His father was a Frenchman and a teacher

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Speaker 2: of history who taught his son to enjoy, you know,

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Speaker 2: taking looks back in time and realizing that there's more

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Speaker 2: than just this moment. We were informed by the choices

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Speaker 2: of the past. Right. He also taught school. He taught

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Speaker 2: actually teachers history at a training college for teachers. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: he was something of a task master. Like for instance,

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Speaker 2: as a punishment, he used to make his son write

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Speaker 2: the same sentence over and over again. I'm talking like

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Speaker 2: hundreds of times, and the sentence was this, I know nothing,

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Speaker 2: I am nothing, I am capable of nothing.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, okay, task masters, you're a different kind of parenting.

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Speaker 2: Sure you know, I'm pretty sure you can trace this

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Speaker 2: whole story back to that punishment and that one sentence.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. God, the like psychic damage of that, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So it's wild to me how often criminals we

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Speaker 2: cover are basically formed by their parents, you know, or,

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Speaker 2: if not, the conditions of their life. Sure, now that

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Speaker 2: basically ps parents. Please be kind and supportive of your kids,

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Speaker 2: unless you want to risk being embarrassed by them later

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Speaker 2: in life. You know, there's a choice. But again I digress.

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Speaker 3: Do everything right and their kids still wind up being criminals.

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Speaker 2: That's what I'm sayinghere. The conditions of life come in. Yeah, anyway.

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Speaker 2: Hans van Miergern's father, he particularly despised the idea that

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Speaker 2: his son wanted to be a painter an artist. In fact,

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Speaker 2: he forbid him, or forbade him rather from pursuing art. Now,

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Speaker 2: as a historian, you might think, but wouldn't he respect

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Speaker 2: art and culture and all that informed the times that

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Speaker 2: he studies.

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Speaker 3: Did he want him to study coding.

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Speaker 2: No, I think I was a small minded male. I

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Speaker 2: just put it that way. And he wanted to some

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Speaker 2: to do something sensible with his talent. So he's like,

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Speaker 2: you should become a draftsman or an.

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Speaker 3: Architect equivalent of learned to code.

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Speaker 2: Basically.

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Speaker 3: See, you know, I hear this from so many people

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Speaker 3: who are distressed when their kids want to study, you know,

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Speaker 3: a liberal arts. And it's like there're more and more

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Speaker 3: companies are saying they wish that their new employees had

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Speaker 3: studied liberal arts. They learned to think, They could think,

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Speaker 3: they could express themselves.

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Speaker 2: You could write, yeah, they can understand what's being disgusted me.

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Speaker 3: They could fix all the problems that AI creates.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, bring fresh perspectives.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, rewrite everything that AI right.

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Speaker 2: And now all those coders are being replaced by AI. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: so that a whole by learned to code thing didn't

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Speaker 2: really help the kids. Well anyway, back to his father,

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Speaker 2: who wanted him to be a draftsman or architect, none

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Speaker 2: of this held sway with his son. He was just

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Speaker 2: a natural born artist. He knew it. And he's like, look,

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Speaker 2: I gotta be about the paints now. His father, like

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Speaker 2: I said, he wanted to be an architect, not an artist,

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Speaker 2: so he sends him to this technical school so he

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Speaker 2: can learn to draft and draw. Eventually, though, he finds

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Speaker 2: teachers who recognize this boy's got talents, I mean, like

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Speaker 2: real talents, so they help him to study art do.

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Speaker 2: They teach him to learn to like mix his own

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Speaker 2: paints and prepare his own canvases and Van Mergern. He

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Speaker 2: gets trained on the works of his fellow countrymen, like

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Speaker 2: which are basically the classics of that would be the

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Speaker 2: what's called the Dutch Golden Age of painting, the old

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Speaker 2: Dutch masters, right, so Vermire exactly Vermir So that era

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Speaker 2: was known for its studies of light and vibrant use

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Speaker 2: of color. So he's studying all of this. He's looking

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Speaker 2: at their brushstrokes, you know, they're balancing of subject matter

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Speaker 2: and how to render it so it looks like it's

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Speaker 2: coming alive with light. And he ends up never becoming

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Speaker 2: an architect. He goes to school all the way, but

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Speaker 2: he doesn't take his finals hence right before he would

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Speaker 2: have been qualified. So at this point that we're in

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Speaker 2: like nineteen thirteen, right, and he's now at the age

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Speaker 2: of twenty four and decided, you know what, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to become an artist. I'm doing it. He rolls himself

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Speaker 2: at a school at the Hague and he studies art there.

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Speaker 2: He soon meets a fellow artist, a young woman named

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Speaker 2: Anna de Volt, and together they make a go of

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Speaker 2: it as starving young artists nice to make money. Van Miergren.

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Speaker 2: He enters the commercial art world, and by that I

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Speaker 2: mean he's like painting posters for businesses. He's in festivals,

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Speaker 2: he's doing vanity portraits of the wealthy. He's just trying

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Speaker 2: to make a go of it. His young wife and he,

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Speaker 2: though eventually they grow apart, mostly because of the money

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Speaker 2: pressures of being young artists, and by nineteen twenty three,

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Speaker 2: at the age of thirty four, they get divorced. Now

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Speaker 2: he's alone, and he keeps working, keeps banging away at

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Speaker 2: his hopes of becoming an artist, like a real celebrated artist,

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Speaker 2: not just that he's getting paid to do it. But

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Speaker 2: he enters the cannon. So at this point, yeah, he

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Speaker 2: does begin to find some success amongst the art critics

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Speaker 2: of the day in the Netherlands. His work is considered inspired.

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Speaker 2: Some people call un quote a gift artist, and he

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Speaker 2: starts to taste success, and then nineteen twenty eight, he

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Speaker 2: remarries his second wife. She's also in the arts. She

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Speaker 2: supports what he does. She's an actress named Johanna, Teresa

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Speaker 2: Orlaman's name doesn't matter, but there it is. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: this is the same year when Van Meergern would make

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Speaker 2: another fateful decision in his life. Much like his new wife,

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Speaker 2: he decides to wear a mask in his work. Only

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Speaker 2: when a painter wears a mask, we have another term

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Speaker 2: for that. We call them art forgers. Oh now, I

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Speaker 2: remember his father made him write hundreds of time, over

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Speaker 2: and over again. I know nothing, I am nothing. I

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Speaker 2: am capable of nothing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, it seems that he took that mantra to heart

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Speaker 2: and he made it his motive to become an art forger.

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Speaker 2: I can be anything because I am nothing.

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Speaker 3: I am nothing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's another motive, though a more personal one. The

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Speaker 2: art critics of the day began to turn against him.

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Speaker 2: They accused him of being nothing. Essentially, this once gifted

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Speaker 2: artist was left behind by the changing seasons of the

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Speaker 2: culture and the art world. Yeah, he's By nineteen twenty eight,

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Speaker 2: the art critics have moved on. They're no longer smitten

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Speaker 2: with what he he was doing. Now they're into these

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Speaker 2: new art movements of the day, Surrealism, Cubism, that's.

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Speaker 3: Very common in that era. That Tony get trained in

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Speaker 3: the classics, but you know the.

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Speaker 2: Master a great Baroque painter and wants that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, now everyone wants avant garde, and you know it's

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Speaker 3: also then you kind of do see the difference between

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Speaker 3: an artist and a drafts person, so that if you knew,

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Speaker 3: if you were just taught how to do something in

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Speaker 3: a certain vein, you're not creating out a whole cloth

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Speaker 3: for yourself.

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Speaker 2: You're not following the zeitgeist totally on. So Van Merrigan's

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Speaker 2: formally once inspired works are now derided right as talented

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Speaker 2: imitations of the Dutch Golden era, and he was merely

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Speaker 2: a talented copy machine of old forms. Of course, Van

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Speaker 2: Mirgan he's hurt by all this, and like I'm thinking,

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Speaker 2: it probably brought him back to the words of his father,

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Speaker 2: which further insenses him. So in nineteen twenty eight he

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Speaker 2: decides if the art world thought he knew nothing, that

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Speaker 2: he lacked originality, that he was a imitator of past genius,

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Speaker 2: well he'd show all of them, like all of them,

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Speaker 2: like y'all are wrong, And so that's what he does.

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Speaker 2: He goes and becomes an art forger. He'll fool the

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Speaker 2: art world and all those arrogant critics, and he'd hit back.

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Speaker 2: He uses this so called imitative talent for painting in

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Speaker 2: the style of the Dutch Golden Age, which they still like,

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Speaker 2: the like the sixteen hundreds people, they're all about that,

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Speaker 2: just not the most recent and he'll make them all

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Speaker 2: look like fools when they fall victim to.

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Speaker 3: His innovative then, yes, exactly, you know.

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Speaker 2: At that point, so he takes himself back to school,

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Speaker 2: only was a school of his own devising. This time,

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Speaker 2: he begins to study the great works of the old

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Speaker 2: Dutch masters, and for a few years he labors to

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Speaker 2: become a master in his own right, to stand shoulder

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Speaker 2: to shoulder with them. He reads their biographies, He studies

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Speaker 2: their paintings, their brushstrokes, their use of color, how they

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Speaker 2: rendered light. But not only that, he also studied how

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Speaker 2: they mix their paints, how they stretch their canvases. He

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Speaker 2: figured out from their biographies how they sourced materials and

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Speaker 2: where he'd need to pull off his planned hoax. So

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Speaker 2: he's also starts beginning to purchase old canvases dating back

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Speaker 2: to the sixteen hundreds. He finds the same materials that

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Speaker 2: they use, which is not easy, and he gets to

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00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,440
Speaker 2: work creating his elaborate forgeries. And he starts, you know,

388
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Speaker 2: basically painting the old master's works until they're indistinguishable from

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Speaker 2: the originals nobody would know. Then he focuses on one

390
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Speaker 2: artist in particular, a mystery man because of how little

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Speaker 2: was known about him, old mister girl with the pearleering himself,

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Speaker 2: Johannes Vermire. At that time, in the beginning of the

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Speaker 2: twentieth century, Vermier was enjoying this retrospective or respect in

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Speaker 2: the art world, especially in Europe, and Van meeger And

395
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Speaker 2: decides he'd fool the art world with their new fancy fave. Okay,

396
00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:28,960
Speaker 2: remember when it was known that Vermier had painted forty

397
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Speaker 2: five paintings, then there were the thirty six that survived. Yeah,

398
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:35,240
Speaker 2: this historic gap is what he'll exploit. Suddenly there's going

399
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Speaker 2: to be all these discovered lost Vermire.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

401
00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:39,960
Speaker 2: So in nineteen thirty two, he releases one of his

402
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Speaker 2: forgeries into the art world. A Lost Vermiir is discovered.

403
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Speaker 2: It's well timed because at this point there was another

404
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Speaker 2: rediscovered lost Vermiir that had also resurfaced at the same time.

405
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Speaker 2: So these two loss Vermiirs were written about by this

406
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Speaker 2: notable art critic, doctor Abraham Bridius. Right, he publishes an

407
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Speaker 2: article talking about these lost vermiers, and he savages one

408
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,639
Speaker 2: of the paintings as an obvious forgery. But to his

409
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Speaker 2: well trained eye, you know, it's basically this is clearly

410
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Speaker 2: a fraud. But the other one, this so called loss vermire.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's reportedly from his early period when he

412
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Speaker 2: was doing like historic paintings and biblical paintings. Okay, so

413
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Speaker 2: he says this is a true find with the full

414
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Speaker 2: weight of his authority as an art critic. He calls

415
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Speaker 2: it an authentic vermire, and he adds that quote it

416
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Speaker 2: is one of the finest gems of the master's uvra.

417
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,159
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, this second painting was a fraud. It was

418
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Speaker 2: actually a forgery by Van Meergren. And he'd done it.

419
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Speaker 2: He'd fooled the art world.

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Speaker 4: Right.

421
00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, his years of study payoff. His talents as a

422
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,480
Speaker 2: forger are confirmed. This is his first taste of revenge,

423
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Speaker 2: and now he wants to go back to the buffet

424
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Speaker 2: for more.

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Speaker 3: I wonder who forged the first one.

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Speaker 2: I do too. I mean I didn't actually look it up,

427
00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,879
Speaker 2: but it was just another forge. Okay, so now that

428
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Speaker 2: we got this ball, they'll roll in. Let's take a

429
00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,040
Speaker 2: little break. We'll dive into the healthy diet of ads,

430
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Speaker 2: and then when we're back, we'll see how long Van

431
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Speaker 2: Miergren can keep this new Cohn going. Elizabeth, yes we are.

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Speaker 2: You're ready to keep this crazy train of cons a rolling.

433
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Speaker 3: Yes.

434
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Speaker 2: Now, remember how I said Van Mierger and studied the

435
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Speaker 2: old Dutch masters and how he bottled canvases to pass

436
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Speaker 2: off his forgeries. I want to return to that for

437
00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:27,840
Speaker 2: a moment because as a science lover, I found this

438
00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,160
Speaker 2: fascinating how he conned the art world with his use

439
00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,160
Speaker 2: of like chemistry. Remember how he learned in art school

440
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,959
Speaker 2: to mix his own paint, Right, he becomes a master

441
00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,280
Speaker 2: of paint mixing, like from his study of their biographies.

442
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:40,440
Speaker 2: He you know, as I said, he goes and he

443
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:44,440
Speaker 2: finds all these sources materials, and then in the sixteen hundreds,

444
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,920
Speaker 2: this was like you're basically buying materials from like itinerant

445
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,280
Speaker 2: men who bounce around in the world. I'm talking like

446
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:52,280
Speaker 2: men who are sailors who've been to the so called

447
00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:54,800
Speaker 2: New World or the deepest corners of Asia.

448
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,080
Speaker 3: Right, Africa, buying things off the silk road.

449
00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:00,840
Speaker 2: Exactly, Exactly. They're buying also materials from other people who

450
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,879
Speaker 2: are in Europe who are essentially snake oil salesmen of

451
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,760
Speaker 2: the medieval period. Yeah, and so he's they're sourcing like

452
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:10,960
Speaker 2: ingredients from apothecaries and alchemists, the materials that also could

453
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,200
Speaker 2: be used as medicines, right, and those cooks went searching

454
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:15,000
Speaker 2: for ways to you know, turn lead into gold. They

455
00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:18,600
Speaker 2: got all sorts of chemistry. So Van Miergren does the same.

456
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,960
Speaker 2: He sources these same ancient materials to further his con

457
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,720
Speaker 2: in the art world, which I love. No, you know,

458
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:26,480
Speaker 2: I say, if you're gonna do it, commit to the bits.

459
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:27,119
Speaker 3: Exactly.

460
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,160
Speaker 2: He committed, right. He like a guy who believes he's Napoleon.

461
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,360
Speaker 2: He was committed. He finds an art dealer who trafficks

462
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:35,800
Speaker 2: in paintings like lesser paintings of the sixteen hundreds. He

463
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:37,760
Speaker 2: buys a bunch of canvases from that guy to get

464
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,359
Speaker 2: him started. He then goes and spends his gilders on

465
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,600
Speaker 2: medicines that modern apothecaries are still selling. So I'm talking

466
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:50,480
Speaker 2: like old lead tin yellow pigments, lead white pigments, ultramarine pigments.

467
00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,400
Speaker 2: Also he was getting things like lilac oil. Yeah, really

468
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,720
Speaker 2: cool stuff. And also Venetian turpentine. Oh wow, all right,

469
00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:00,000
Speaker 2: So the ultramarine pigments, they had to be imported from

470
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:04,000
Speaker 2: Afghanistan and then sold through Venice commodities traders. So it's

471
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,359
Speaker 2: obscuring where the stuff's coming from, so nobody can catch them.

472
00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,320
Speaker 2: Nobody's gonna be like, oh, I sold that guy this stuff.

473
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,480
Speaker 2: So Van Mirgern he starts using these ancient pigments. He's

474
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,520
Speaker 2: rare materials to grind out his own yellows and whites

475
00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:17,520
Speaker 2: and blues, and that way he can paint these same

476
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:19,920
Speaker 2: colors and these same effects of light that the old

477
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:25,120
Speaker 2: Dutch masters did. The effect becomes indistinguishable from the originals. Now,

478
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:26,879
Speaker 2: if you plan to trick the masters, you gotta go

479
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 2: harden the paint. Pardon the pun and boy does he.

480
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:31,439
Speaker 2: I mean it wasn't just the materials he uses. He

481
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 2: also masters their brushstrokes like down so you could not

482
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,640
Speaker 2: tell it gets it's identical the guy. He's a really

483
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,480
Speaker 2: good artist, so his hand could reproduce the exact same

484
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:41,280
Speaker 2: touch as Vermiir.

485
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:46,120
Speaker 3: The amount of time he must have spent sitting before yep, paintings.

486
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,080
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, just staring at the most intimate detail, how

487
00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:51,320
Speaker 2: the ridge of paint rises where it falls. So finally,

488
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,360
Speaker 2: to seal the deal, he also goes back to chemistry

489
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,240
Speaker 2: and he starts playing around the things like a phenol formaldehyde.

490
00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:58,520
Speaker 2: He uses that on his finished works to age the

491
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 2: paintings because they need to look like they're three hundred,

492
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:02,720
Speaker 2: three hundred and fifty years old. Yeah, and then he

493
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,679
Speaker 2: comes up with a secret. He starts baking his paintings.

494
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,240
Speaker 2: So he figured out that somewhere in the range between

495
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,200
Speaker 2: two hundred and twelve degrees fahrenheit and two hundred and

496
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,600
Speaker 2: forty eight degrees fahrenheit, or for those who in the

497
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 2: celsius one hundred degrees celsius to one hundred and twenty

498
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 2: degrees celsius A quick digression, Elizabeth, Yeah, you know I

499
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,240
Speaker 2: always ask you to convert celsius to fahrenheit for me,

500
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 2: since you lived in Scotland and I've never been out

501
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 2: of America. Well, good news, I found a method that

502
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 2: I can now remember. You want up to do it,

503
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,760
Speaker 2: you take a Celsius reading, you multiply it by one

504
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 2: point and add thirty two degrees. I can remember that. Yeah,

505
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,960
Speaker 2: I've never come across. So that's good news for you.

506
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 2: I thought, no more dumb questions forming whenever I see

507
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,240
Speaker 2: weather from anywhere in the world. Now, normally, by the way,

508
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 2: I think the metric system is superior. I want that

509
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 2: on the record. But in one instance, can we all

510
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,399
Speaker 2: agree that fahrenheit is the superior temperature system? Because you

511
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:50,960
Speaker 2: say one hundred degrees that sounds hot.

512
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:51,399
Speaker 3: I get it.

513
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:53,120
Speaker 2: You say thirty seven degrees, I'm.

514
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:53,879
Speaker 3: Like, oh, that's cold.

515
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,359
Speaker 2: What is that? Okay? For instance, the other day I

516
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,479
Speaker 2: saw it was fifty point five degrees in parts of Turkey,

517
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:01,639
Speaker 2: and I was like, that seems hot. That's one hundred

518
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 2: and twenty three degrees fahrenheit. That's like Arizona melt your

519
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 2: car hot. Anyway, back to Van Meergren and his art forgeries,

520
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 2: that's just my little digression on Celsius. So to age

521
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:12,879
Speaker 2: is painting. He sets the oven somewhere between two hundred

522
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 2: and twelve degrees and two hundred and forty eight degrees

523
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 2: fahrenheit or hundred celsius hundred and twenty celsius, and that's

524
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 2: how he creates the crackle surface of the old painting. Crazy, yeah, exactly.

525
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 2: They also the craculaire I think it is. Maybe I'm

526
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 2: saying that wrong, but that's the final touch to fool

527
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 2: all the learned art critics. They're like, oh, look at it,

528
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,160
Speaker 2: it's so aged. Now fool them. He did.

529
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:33,119
Speaker 3: That's very clever.

530
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,199
Speaker 2: Completely after his initial success, he goes to work to

531
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,640
Speaker 2: create more lost vermires because he's earning big money, because

532
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:41,639
Speaker 2: that's like the artist of the moment, right, So he

533
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 2: creates one forgery entitled quote the Head of Christ. Then

534
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,119
Speaker 2: he creates another one called the Blessings of Jacob, and

535
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 2: then there is the Adulteress, and then the Supper at Emos.

536
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 2: And my favorite though of his Lost Vermire forgeries is

537
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 2: the one called the Last Supper Two. Sounds like a

538
00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 2: fast and furious sequel, but set in Galilee Peter's revenge. Exactly. No,

539
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 2: if you're keeping track, that's five lost Vermires plus the

540
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 2: original one that he sold off, so that's six in total.

541
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:08,919
Speaker 3: Do you happen to know? Is he working off of

542
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,679
Speaker 3: speculation of what the missing pea exactly.

543
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,159
Speaker 2: People knew these best. Why he had to pick these

544
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,959
Speaker 2: titles wasn't just exactly, He's got to match titles with

545
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 2: with works, and so he's gone, this should be the

546
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 2: subject matter. And he's studying the old and I had

547
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 2: older era of painters like Caravaggio to kind of like

548
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,439
Speaker 2: figure out this would have been how we rendered this

549
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 2: biblical scene. So at this point, remember there's nine lost

550
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 2: Vermires in total, and now he's found six of them.

551
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:33,680
Speaker 2: Just a lucky guy, amazing.

552
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 3: But where he's finding him like in a cave.

553
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 4: Oh.

554
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 2: He starts acting like you know, he's an art collector

555
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,920
Speaker 2: and he's digging around and this is his specialty. People

556
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 2: are like, oh man, this guy's amazing. He's he just

557
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 2: hunts for Vermiir and he's able to spot them with

558
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 2: his train.

559
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:48,439
Speaker 3: Would be like, well, where'd you hunt that one up?

560
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 2: Come up with a story?

561
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:51,360
Speaker 3: He's like, was it the good Will?

562
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:51,639
Speaker 4: No?

563
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,119
Speaker 2: The greatest con he pulls had to be the Supper

564
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 2: at Emos, which is reported to be Vermiir's finest lost work. Everyone,

565
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 2: I can't believe you found the masterpiece? Right? This is

566
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 2: so good totally. So to pull off his hoax, he

567
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,159
Speaker 2: finds his canvas from the sixteen hundreds that has the

568
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 2: exact same dimensions that are known for this the separate emouse,

569
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 2: and he mixes his own paints using his techniques from

570
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 2: the old Dutch masters, the ancient materials all that. Then

571
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 2: he bakes them up using his oven techniques. So the

572
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 2: Craculaur was all convincing. To verify his hoax, he has

573
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 2: this art critic, the same one from before, doctor Abraham Bridius.

574
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 2: He declares the painting to not just be authentic, but

575
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 2: was quote the masterpiece of Johannes Vermier. Oh yes, but

576
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 2: not only that. Van Mirgen's techniques of his forgeries beat

577
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 2: all the tests of the day that they could use

578
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 2: to test it. This is before we had like, you know,

579
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 2: polonium testing and looking and like X ray tomogra Actually

580
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 2: know they used X ray tomography, but later on they

581
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 2: use like much more deeply penetrating stuff. So at this

582
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 2: point they were doing like pigment analysis, microscope examinations of

583
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 2: the canvas, which dates to the right time, and then

584
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 2: they did do basic X ray techniques, so it's like, oh, yes,

585
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 2: this is clearly the right thing. Once through forgeries, reported

586
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 2: to be confirmed as a true loss vermire, and this

587
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 2: is in nineteen thirty seven, the painting sells for millions millions. Wow, yeah, right,

588
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 2: the lost work gets celebrated as a true master work.

589
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,919
Speaker 2: It gets hung in a gallery in Rotterdam. It's the

590
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 2: bell of the ball for this gallery, and it's seen

591
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 2: as evidence that Vermier had been inspired by the works

592
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 2: of Caravaggio, which leads the art world to start reconsidering

593
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 2: how the old Dutch masters were inspired by the Italians.

594
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 2: Now his forgeries are rewriting art history.

595
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 3: It's so crazy.

596
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a big deal. So then a challenge for

597
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 2: his forgeries pops up something he could have never anticipated. Elizabeth,

598
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 2: what happened in Europe in nineteen thirty nine.

599
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 3: I was gonna say, he sells this familias in thirty seven,

600
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,400
Speaker 3: and I'm like, oh art in the late thirties, and yeah, yep.

601
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 2: World War two pops War two. So in the years

602
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 2: prior to the official start of World War Two, the

603
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 2: Nazis had been coveting great European artworks evidence of the

604
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 2: superiority of the area in race. Right, So a Dutch

605
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 2: master like Vermier was seen as this perfect exaspar the

606
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 2: so called like function shine art or whatever, like people's

607
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 2: art and like the simple pastoral life and everything, and

608
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 2: it becomes this exemplar of their so called master race

609
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 2: self delusion. So many great works from this period end

610
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 2: up being purchased by the Nazis, but also many are

611
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 2: being straight up stolen by prominent Jewish families or from

612
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 2: prominent Jewish families after the families get sent off to

613
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,159
Speaker 2: the camp. Right in the art world, this sad and

614
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 2: like truly tragic time. It basically extends from thirty three

615
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 2: all the way through the war to forty five, and

616
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 2: it creates this black hole of provenance because you cannot

617
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,199
Speaker 2: prove the painting, so people have to go and say, oh,

618
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 2: that looks like a Vermier, that looks like a Van Hawking, right,

619
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 2: So it becomes very difficult to know the true story

620
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 2: where a painting or a sculpture other masterpiece come from.

621
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 2: And this black hole of provenance it's still an issue today.

622
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 2: Many art detectives they do their work certifying masterpieces that

623
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,199
Speaker 2: were lost in the pre war and war years, then

624
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 2: also trying to return them to the families from whom

625
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:51,920
Speaker 2: the art was stolen. And there's a lot of court

626
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 2: cases about this, and you know, like trying to prove

627
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 2: you have.

628
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 3: To go you have to be very broad in your

629
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,719
Speaker 3: understanding of how to prove up that provenance. Exactly if

630
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 3: it's stolen from a family that there were given receipts, Yeah,

631
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 3: and now all of their receipts, all of their paperwork

632
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 3: is gone.

633
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 2: It's gone too. Exactly to look for pictures that was

634
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 2: in the family home.

635
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,679
Speaker 3: You have to hope that there are those surviving pictures

636
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 3: that they weren't you know, Yeah.

637
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 2: You have to hope somebody else had the picture that

638
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 2: they took in your home with it. Yeah, exactly. So

639
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 2: in these pre warriors and during the Nazi occupation of

640
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 2: the Netherlands, Van Miergren is still working selling his forgeries.

641
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 2: In particular, he sold one of his vermier forgeries to

642
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 2: a Dutch art dealer who then turned around and sold

643
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 2: it to the Nazis, and not just any old Nazi.

644
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,199
Speaker 2: The forgery it was dubbed the Adulterous or Christ with

645
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 2: the Adulterous. It was sold to Reich Marshall Hermann Goring. Yeah,

646
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 2: the head of the German Lufwaffer, the architect of the Gestapo.

647
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 2: An infamous lover of the finer things in life. Goring.

648
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 2: He collected priceless wines, he had a fine artwork collection.

649
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 2: He'd like to surround himself in beauty and delicacy as

650
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 2: he spread pain and suffering all around the world. Yeah, so,

651
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 2: this vermire forgery, It's coveted by Goring, And at first

652
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 2: he hung the painting Christ with the adulteress in his office,

653
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 2: and later on, as the war was ending, he made

654
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 2: sure to take it with him and his family when

655
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 2: he went into hiding, and to ensure that this painting

656
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 2: stayed safe from the British and American bombs, Goring safeguarded

657
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 2: the masterpiece deep in this Austrian salt mine. Then the

658
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 2: Soviet Union they reached Berlin, the Nazi regime collapses, and

659
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 2: being too much of a coward to kill himself, Goring

660
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 2: finds himself on trial in Nuremberg to face justice for

661
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 2: the horrifying crimes that he'd perpetrated. Meanwhile, the forged painting

662
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 2: gets recovered from that Austrian salt mine by the Americans.

663
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 2: Oh the monument, Yeah, exactly, exactly. So in this instance,

664
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 2: there was a paperwork trail that tracked this painting back

665
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 2: to the Dutch art dealer, and then from there it

666
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 2: went back to Van Mirgeren. That would become a big

667
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 2: problem for the art forger because he was now on

668
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 2: the record as a Nazi collaborator who'd sold off Dutch

669
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 2: masterpieces and cultural history to the hated Nazi regime. So

670
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 2: Van Miergeren gets arrested, charged with aiding and abetting the

671
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 2: Nazis and their heinous crimes against humanity. Although he hadn't

672
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 2: directly sold to Goring, he might well.

673
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 3: Have because he knew he knew that's where it was

674
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 3: going to come.

675
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. In the eyes of the Dutch he was

676
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 2: a Nazi collaborator and during the Nazi occupation he'd certainly

677
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 2: lived well. He hadn't mind taking Nazi money for all,

678
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 2: like hanging out with Nazis. So the punishment for that

679
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 2: was death.

680
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 3: I think that you know, if you're not outspoken against

681
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 3: the Nazis, yeah you're a Nazi.

682
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. It was pretty bad. And and he had like

683
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 2: some people said, fascist landing. Some people say he was

684
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 2: an anti fascist and just pretending that couldn't be known.

685
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 2: But there was plenty of him at a party, plenty

686
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 2: of him getting paid to sell a painting to a Nazi, and.

687
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 3: Like, there's the thing you think, Oh, he's just pretending

688
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 3: to like get by with the Nazis, Right, But you're

689
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 3: not just pretending. If you're living high on the hall, Yeah,

690
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 3: you're just living this luxurious life. But there are ways

691
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 3: to like just get by and keep your head down.

692
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 2: Exactly And then there's all then there's like you were

693
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 2: at the exactly so face now with the prospect of

694
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 2: a death sentence, because that's the punishment for being a

695
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 2: Nazi collaborator. The art forger's faced with the very unique

696
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 2: legal choice. Either he has to admit that he was

697
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 2: a forger who created the lost and Found masterpiece, which

698
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 2: would carry its own penalties and would unmask him and

699
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 2: all of the works that he allegedly found. Yeah, or

700
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 2: you know, or he could you know, keep his secret

701
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 2: and lose his life.

702
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 3: Oh, would obviously not a hard choice to make.

703
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 2: I mean, he'd already proven his father wrong. He was

704
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 2: indeed somebody. He was not nothing. He was a great artist,

705
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 2: or at least a great forger, and he'd already gotten

706
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 2: his revenge on the art world for rejecting him and

707
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 2: labeling him a once talented and gifted artists who lacked originality.

708
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 2: But if he admitted he was an art forger to

709
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 2: save his life, he would unmask himself and he once

710
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 2: again be nothing. Essentially, his father would be right. He

711
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 2: would be the unoriginal artist that the art world determined

712
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 2: him to be. So it was like kind of a

713
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 2: psychological stumbling block. Yeah, So, anyway, what does he do?

714
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 2: How does he save his life and not lose everything

715
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 2: in the process and become what he's always been charged

716
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 2: by others?

717
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 3: Great question, Elizabeth, thank you for asking.

718
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 4: Yeah.

719
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 2: Also not to mention the fortune he's made from all

720
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 2: the forges. He's also going to lose that he's got

721
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 2: like millions and millions of millions. Oh, what does he do?

722
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 2: Well after these messages, Elizabeth, We'll see how Van Meergren

723
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 2: plays the hand he's been dealt. Let's go back into

724
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 2: and two, Elizabeth Zarin, we're back. So what do you

725
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 2: do you dig in the strange tale of art force

726
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 2: and revenge against the world.

727
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 3: It's so nuanced, there's so many little pieces to it.

728
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 2: I like, not an easy one. Now, if you were

729
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 2: han Van meergrin, like, what do you do? You do

730
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 2: you admit what you've done? Do you take your secret

731
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 2: to the grave? Do you try to like play like

732
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 2: a I forged this one, but that's it? I mean, like,

733
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 2: how do you You can't control what happens once you

734
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 2: start telling the truth.

735
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 3: Well, I think if I'm a weasel like him, I say, yeah,

736
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 3: I guess what. I faked them all and I did

737
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 3: it to pull one over these evil Nazis. I'm a hero.

738
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 2: Problem has he been doing it so long? People knew

739
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 2: that was not true.

740
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 3: I've been watching them for ages. Look at me, I'm

741
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 3: a hero around you're the heroes there.

742
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 2: That is basically his leaning. You nailed it. So date

743
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 2: of his arrest is May twenty ninth, nineteen forty five.

744
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 2: The war has just ended in Germany and be like

745
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 2: the passions are high. So he gets charged with the

746
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 2: heinous crime of aiding and abetting the enemy aka the

747
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 2: Nazi war machine. His fellow countrymen and women want justice

748
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 2: against men like him, and people are getting shot in

749
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 2: the street. Yeah yeah, yeah. So collaborator too profited, enjoyed

750
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 2: life as others lost theirs and lost everything that makes

751
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 2: life worth living. It's kind of like scales of justice thing, right.

752
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 2: So he gets taken to prison, luckily and not shot

753
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 2: in the street, and there he has to await trial

754
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 2: for selling off the Dutch cultural history. But only he

755
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 2: at this point, only he knows his secret. Nobody thinks

756
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 2: that they're forgeries, because remember everybody all the art world

757
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 2: said these are great, so revealing it will be his

758
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 2: only way to get free or at least say, his life.

759
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 2: But he still will have to face justice, as you know,

760
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 2: as a forager. So he sits there as solitary confinement

761
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 2: for a good long time thinking about how he's going

762
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 2: to play this. He's working on your idea of like

763
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 2: how can I be the hero of like, oh, yes,

764
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 2: I'm a resistance fighter. Well, eventually he decides to tell

765
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 2: the truth. But this is because of his interaction with

766
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 2: this man named Joseph Piller, who was an actual resistance fighter,

767
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 2: and not just that he was a former tailor. He

768
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 2: was a Jewish man who was now an officer in

769
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 2: the reconstituted Dutch Army, and he's overseeing efforts to get

770
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 2: justice against collaborators. And they keep talking and meeting and

771
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 2: Pillar takes an interest in his case, he starts investigating

772
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,720
Speaker 2: Van meerger In while he's awaiting trial. Pillar eventually wins

773
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 2: his trust, and Van meerger In you know, admits to

774
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 2: him that he sold the pen to Goring, but it

775
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 2: was a fake. It was a fraud, which delights this

776
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 2: former resistance fighter that he was able to trick the

777
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 2: great art collector of the nazis right. This also shows

778
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 2: van mierger In the way to free himself. I am

779
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 2: a resistance fighter. I tricked him. He focus on go Goring.

780
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 3: No, don't, and don't look at what I did a

781
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 3: long time ago doing that.

782
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 2: Look at Goring, Look at Goring, not me. I'm over here.

783
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 2: I'm just an artist, but going man. So by the

784
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 2: time his trial starts, Van Miergren he makes his choice.

785
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 2: He decides to confess his art crimes to save his life.

786
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 2: During the trial, when he's confronted with actual photographic evidence

787
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 2: of Herman Goring holding the Vermier masterpiece, Van Miergren tells

788
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,800
Speaker 2: the judge and the court quote the picture in Goring's

789
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 2: hands is not as you assume, a vermire of delft,

790
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 2: but actually Van Miergrin I painted the picture. I remember

791
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 2: he'd done such a good job with his forgery. He'd

792
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,320
Speaker 2: fooled not only the notable art critics, but his forgery

793
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,399
Speaker 2: fooled the microscope examinations, the actually tests. There's no one

794
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 2: in the court who believes him. The painting is clearly authentic.

795
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 2: He painted too well, so even after he confesses the truth,

796
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 2: no one will believes. He's now about to be doomed

797
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 2: by his own forgery. The irony is profound. He'd done

798
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 2: too good of a job, right, so he's gonna lose

799
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,359
Speaker 2: his life because he's too good of a forger. So

800
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,800
Speaker 2: his claims that he's a forger becomes major news story

801
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,280
Speaker 2: of the day in the Netherlands but also Europe at large,

802
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 2: and like that, could this possibly be true? The newspapers

803
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 2: are basically wondering. So, in his desperate attempt to save

804
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 2: himself from his own forgery, Van Miergern demands that he'd

805
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:12,839
Speaker 2: be given a chance to prove that indeed he could

806
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 2: forge the masterpiece. The judge is curious. He relents, he's

807
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 2: like hm, a known for mere masterpiece. So he then

808
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 2: you know, does a little research, you know, meets with

809
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 2: some people, and he selects a known for mere lost

810
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 2: masterpiece and he selects that one. He says, Okay, forge

811
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 2: this one, and I wanted to be tested and we

812
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 2: can see, you know, if you can do what you're

813
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 2: saying that you can create a forgery that will beat

814
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 2: the experts. So now he's got a strange twist of face, like,

815
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 2: we want you to do a crime to prove you

816
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 2: didn't do a crime. Incredible, But not only that was

817
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 2: a crime that he was allowed to perpetrate, because you know,

818
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 2: as an art forger, he developed this interesting habit that

819
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,399
Speaker 2: when he was painting, he liked to drink a lot

820
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 2: and smoke opium. Wait, so he said that if I'm

821
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 2: going to do this forgery, I have to do it

822
00:36:57,719 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 2: the way I do forgery. So I'm going to need

823
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 2: to be drunk and high. And the judge's like, that's fair.

824
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 2: So now Van Myrgren is allowed to drink and smoke

825
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 2: opium in his jail cell as he paints a forgery

826
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 2: to prove his innocence. And this goes on for months.

827
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, because he can't just like, oh, I bang him

828
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 3: out in like a week.

829
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. And he's like, yeah, so it takes me

830
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 2: a couple of months, and I'll hide the whole time.

831
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna need a lot of opium yea, and

832
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 2: I'm gonna need a bunch of booze. And the judges like,

833
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,279
Speaker 2: get them a bunch of opium, get them some booze.

834
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,800
Speaker 3: Well, and you know that, like he makes the statement,

835
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 3: actually I forge these gas. Yeah, and then now everything

836
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 3: they do gas like the papers must have loved it.

837
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,320
Speaker 2: So I mean I always like also picturing like trying

838
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 2: to say that, sell that to a judge like, hey,

839
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 2: your honor, I have to be twisted if this is

840
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 2: gonna work. The judge like makes sense to me, give

841
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 2: the prisoner all the booze and opium he needs. So

842
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 2: Van Myrgren he's given months to work, you know, and

843
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 2: he's allowed to select his materials. They go and they

844
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 2: source out everything he would need, and then he gets

845
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 2: like an oven so he can bake the paintings, like

846
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 2: all his whole technique everything like okay, whatever you need.

847
00:37:58,200 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 2: But then to make sure that you know he's actually

848
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,439
Speaker 2: doing this and he's not like just gonna like hand

849
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 2: it off to somebody else and they're gonna slip it

850
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 2: through like the prison window. There are appointed witnesses who

851
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,320
Speaker 2: have to watch him the entire time. What did job?

852
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 2: They sit there like in like a gallery of chairs,

853
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 2: I imagine, just watching him work. But you know, as

854
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 2: also there's reporters. There's some reporters from like French papers

855
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 2: and Dutch papers. They're allowed to visit the prison cell

856
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 2: because everybody's kind of digging. This story nown just getting

857
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 2: crazier and crazier. So they also get to watch the

858
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 2: master forger work. But the judge wants to keep some

859
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 2: things under wraps because you're in indeed to go and

860
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 2: like you know, trick the.

861
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 3: Experts right exactly.

862
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 2: So this whole process is going along. But you know

863
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 2: what revan me tell you about the whole process, Elizabeth,

864
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 2: I'd like you to close your eyes. I'd like you

865
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 2: to picture it. The year is nineteen forty five. World

866
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 2: War two is over and the world is rebuilding from

867
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 2: the destruction of the years of horrifying violence, the untold cruelty.

868
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 2: And there in the months between July and December, the

869
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 2: now infamous art forger han Van Meergren is laboring as

870
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 2: fast as he can to save his own life with

871
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 2: a brand new forgery. The judge in the trial has

872
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 2: selected the loss of vermir entitled Jesus among the Doctors,

873
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 2: also known as Young Christ in the Temple. At the

874
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 2: moment you, Elizabeth, are waiting for a prison door to

875
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 2: be opened, a turn key approaches. The jingle jangle of

876
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 2: his keys has a rhythmic quality. His footsteps smack against

877
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,919
Speaker 2: the cold stone floor and softly echo against the damp

878
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 2: and equally cold stone walls. He takes his time getting

879
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 2: to you. Finally he sets the key in lock, the

880
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 2: prison doors open. He indicates you are to follow him

881
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 2: down this long hallway. You do as instructed, your heels

882
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 2: tapped against the same damp, cold stone floor. After a

883
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 2: short walk, you are brought to a viewing area outside

884
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,800
Speaker 2: the cell of the infamous art forger han van Meergren.

885
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 2: A pair of court appointed witnesses already seated in the

886
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 2: makeshift gallery of chairs. You nod politely at them and

887
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,240
Speaker 2: you take a seat, and there, with the others seated

888
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 2: outside his prison cell, you watch the art forger work

889
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,800
Speaker 2: out of his hand as it pushes brush against canvas.

890
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 2: After a while of watching, you scribble in your notepad,

891
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 2: because you, Elizabeth, are a reporter for a Dutch newspaper

892
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,720
Speaker 2: sent there to witness the creation of his forgery. After

893
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 2: an hour of working, Van Mehergrin takes a break from

894
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 2: his painting and it returns to the workshop section of

895
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 2: his prison cell. The infamous art forger hums an old

896
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 2: tune to himself. You watch as he grinds mortar and

897
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 2: pistol to create more paint. With the ancient pigments and

898
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,320
Speaker 2: the linseed and lilac oils, he mixes up medieval colors

899
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 2: that he will need to pull off his forgery. You

900
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 2: dutifully watch him as he works. You scribble some notes

901
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 2: in your notepad. Your pen moves quickly. When you look

902
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 2: back up, you marvel at the progress he's made so far.

903
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 2: The painting is barely half done, but it's coming together.

904
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 2: You can see the work in progress. It's like looking

905
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 2: back in time to the days of the old Dutch masters.

906
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 2: But you are not wholly convinced this alleged master Forger

907
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 2: is indeed the real deal. So you watch him work,

908
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,839
Speaker 2: hoping to catch something or see something that might convince you.

909
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 2: He returns to the canvas and applies the newly mixed

910
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 2: paints with the ancient pigments and oils. You focus on

911
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 2: his hand as he hums to himself again. You watch

912
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 2: the forgery coming to life. You scribble more notes in

913
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:17,399
Speaker 2: your pad. The longer you watch, the more impressed you are.

914
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,799
Speaker 2: He certainly is a talented painter, but is he what

915
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 2: he claims to be? You can't be certain. Your editors

916
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,760
Speaker 2: certainly will not be happy to hear that. They expect results,

917
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 2: They expect answers, They expect you to have a conclusive

918
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 2: and exclusive evidence of a forgery or not. However, if

919
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,359
Speaker 2: you're being honest, you just can't tell. Then you hear

920
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,359
Speaker 2: your stomach grumble, I'm hungry for dinner. You realize how

921
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 2: long you've been in this cold, damp Dutch prison. And

922
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 2: then you see Van Miergren get up to pack his

923
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:47,800
Speaker 2: opium pipe. It's not the first time he's done that today.

924
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 2: In fact, earlier you thought you caught a second hand high. Now,

925
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 2: when the smell of the burning opium reaches your nostrils,

926
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 2: you're like, yep, it's time for me to go, Time

927
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 2: for you to go scaups and dinner. So you'll just

928
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 2: have to wing it and come up with a story

929
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 2: based on the notes you've taken. Perhaps in the ad

930
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 2: you'll just flip a coin and decide if he's a

931
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 2: real dealer or not. Who knows. Okay, so since you

932
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,839
Speaker 2: couldn't decide, you're no art expert, you're just a damn

933
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 2: good writer. What are you gonna do? Meanwhile, this goes on,

934
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 2: the opium smoking, the drinking, the art forging, and finally,

935
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 2: in December of nineteen forty five, Van Miergren is finished

936
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 2: with his forgery. He and the art work are brought

937
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 2: back before the judge and the court. Art experts and

938
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,839
Speaker 2: scientists are called in to study the alleged forgery. They're

939
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 2: not told it's a forgery, they're just told, can you

940
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 2: authenticate this? Painting? Microscopes X raiser once again used to

941
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 2: test the work. Brushstroke analysis is performed. Also, they call

942
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 2: in the great art critic who had been tricked multiple

943
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 2: times now by Van Meergrin, good old doctor Abraham Bredius.

944
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 3: Oh abe.

945
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 2: He's called in to verify the work, and he's not

946
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 2: told of the promenance or that there's a possibility, yeah,

947
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:51,840
Speaker 2: that it could be a forgery. Instead, he just studies

948
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 2: the work, unaware that's been painted by Van Miergren. The

949
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 2: man who, by the way, is nicknamed the Pope of

950
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:02,240
Speaker 2: Vermirez is conned yet again. He's worse than that Elizabeth,

951
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 2: this cat declares and perhaps one of the most embarrassing

952
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 2: moments for an art critic and art critic history. Quote.

953
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 2: It is a wonderful moment in the life of a

954
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 2: lover of art when he finds himself suddenly confronted with

955
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 2: a hitherto unknown painting by a great master. That pretty

956
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:21,479
Speaker 2: much steals the deal.

957
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:21,919
Speaker 3: Yeah.

958
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,760
Speaker 2: After his careful examination and this larger panel of experts

959
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 2: and scientists who are also tricked, they determined that the

960
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 2: forgery is indeed a masterpiece, a true vermire. Boom, he's

961
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 2: done it again, one final time, and he's free, free

962
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 2: from the death sentence. The judge rules bang bang case

963
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 2: dismissed a quit this guy lets him off. Yeah, However,

964
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 2: justice is not done with him because he's still a

965
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 2: fraud so one who conn buyers out of millions and

966
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 2: millions of dollars. He will still have to pay for

967
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 2: his art crime, so he's immediately brought up on charges

968
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,799
Speaker 2: of art forgery. Van Myrgren is eventually tried, convicted, and

969
00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 2: sentenced to how long one year in prison for all

970
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 2: of his art crimes.

971
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 3: With no opium and no ovens.

972
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 2: Yes, none of that. No, he's going to have to

973
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 2: just white knuckle it at this point. The sentence for

974
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 2: his art forgeries obviously is far lighter than his previous

975
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 2: death sentence, but he's still fearing going to prison because

976
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 2: once you, as you pointed out, no opium, he'll be like,

977
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 2: you know, having to go here the craziest withdrawals there is.

978
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:19,320
Speaker 2: And also he's a pretty serious alcoholic at this point.

979
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 3: So oh god, you kind of wish they would have

980
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 3: been like, yeah, you know what, we'll call it even.

981
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, not me, I don't. Before his official time in

982
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 2: prison is scheduled to begin in forty seven, he suffers

983
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 2: a heart attack in November, and then another one and

984
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:34,279
Speaker 2: he drops dead from the second heart attack. He was

985
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 2: fifty eight years old in December of forty seven when

986
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 2: he dies, and this is before he starts his prison sentence,

987
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 2: so he never actually faces justice. Wow. Yeah, No. There's

988
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 2: one strange result of all his new fame as the

989
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,399
Speaker 2: art forger who had conned Herman Gurring as well as

990
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 2: the Pope of Vermiers. It turns Van mirger In into

991
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 2: a national folk hero. He becomes this like bad boy

992
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 2: of the art world. Like, you know, he conned of Gurring. Yeah,

993
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 2: I get him. Of course he also con breed aha, right.

994
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 2: So and also I found this one detail I loved.

995
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 2: When Gouring was at this point is still alive and

996
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 2: still on trial and about to you know, do the

997
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,840
Speaker 2: Nuremberg justice, he gets informed that the vermire that he

998
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 2: coveted and loved and used his proof of Aryan superiority

999
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 2: was actually a fake. And I found a contemporaneous account

1000
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 2: that said quote Gurring looked as if for the first

1001
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 2: time he had discovered that there was evil in the world,

1002
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 2: God him being tricked the evil.

1003
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 3: I wouldn't have told him before I brought the painting

1004
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 3: in front of him and set it on fire.

1005
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,360
Speaker 2: And then tell. And then you tell a heart attack himself.

1006
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 3: Moron is fake.

1007
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 2: So and also I shouldn't clarify it wasn't just the

1008
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:47,760
Speaker 2: Dutch who loved him. At this point. Over in France,

1009
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,760
Speaker 2: the newspapers had been covering the trial and its results,

1010
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 2: and they'd love that Van Meergren had conned so many

1011
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 2: high falutine art folks with his quote swindle of the century.

1012
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,800
Speaker 2: And the French absolutely loved that he'd conned the Germans,

1013
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,840
Speaker 2: who believed themselves to be the true cultural snobs of Europe.

1014
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 2: The freats are like, we take back our title. So

1015
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 2: of course there's one other legacy of his crimes I

1016
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 2: should point out. The art world was forced to determine

1017
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 2: which of the reported lost Vermiers were authentic which were forgeries,

1018
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:16,799
Speaker 2: as well as a number of other great Dutch artists

1019
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 2: who I didn't mention who he was also forging master

1020
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,880
Speaker 2: artists like a Peter de Hoc right, So like this

1021
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 2: went on for a long time, Like in twenty eleven,

1022
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 2: his forgery of another Dutch painter's work called The Procures

1023
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 2: was finally determined to be a fake by art historians

1024
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 2: twenty eleven from the BBC show Faker Fortune Love that show.

1025
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 2: I thought you did that show. That's how I wanted

1026
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 2: to bring it up. They busted him out. That's like

1027
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 2: one of the one of the last of his forgeries

1028
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 2: to be unmasks. It was a super slow process. It

1029
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 2: took him twenty years to determine that two of the

1030
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:51,279
Speaker 2: van Miergren's Vermier forgeries were fakes. There's one called the

1031
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 2: Smiling Girl and another called the lace Maker. They were

1032
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 2: both downgraded from being Vermiers to being possibly a work

1033
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 2: of a student or follower of Vermier Vermiir exactly and

1034
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:05,760
Speaker 2: then finally nope, fake as hell, hell totally a fraud

1035
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,399
Speaker 2: perpetrated by Van Meergrin. And that's how we come back

1036
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 2: to the official total of thirty six known for me.

1037
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:12,239
Speaker 3: He's incredible, yes.

1038
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 2: And also his son, by the way, was also a painter.

1039
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:18,240
Speaker 2: Van Miergren's son was a painter. He started doing forgery

1040
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 2: of his dad's works because people started collecting Van Myrergrin's

1041
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,319
Speaker 2: because it was this like, oh, he's this national folk hero.

1042
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 2: So he starts banging out his own fortraits of his

1043
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 2: dad's stuff. Now, just to be totally clear and put

1044
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 2: everything on the table. I don't think Van Meergren was

1045
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:35,360
Speaker 2: a full hero outlaw, you know. I like full herro outlast.

1046
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:37,319
Speaker 2: This guy wasn't, because, as you pointed out, you can't

1047
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:39,439
Speaker 2: palle around with Nazis and enjoy the spoils of war

1048
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,719
Speaker 2: and earn our respect. He's no one to be celebrated

1049
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 2: if you know what all he did. Like also, there's

1050
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 2: something I hadn't mentioned yet. He once signed a book

1051
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 2: that was gifted to Hitler, Like you know, like my

1052
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 2: dear furor this is for you kind of thing. Yeah.

1053
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 2: So he was a bad man, and not a bad

1054
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:55,279
Speaker 2: man in the good way, like you know, like a

1055
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 2: man exactly. But I do see why, even in the

1056
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 2: post war period, why the Dutch in the French would

1057
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 2: celebrate him the way that they did because they wanted

1058
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 2: to get back the emotional reclamation a victory exactly. So

1059
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:09,880
Speaker 2: when you see him celebrated, don't be too harsh in

1060
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 2: judgment of the French and the Dutch. They needed to

1061
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 2: get back and have something to hold. So there you go.

1062
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 2: What's our ridiculous takeaway here, Elizabeth?

1063
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 3: I once again, every time we talk about these forgers,

1064
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 3: they are very skilled artists.

1065
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 2: Huh. You think, hey, you can do this.

1066
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 3: You can do this if you if you weren't just mimicking.

1067
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:32,920
Speaker 3: But here he is so skilled in a method and

1068
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 3: a school that is no longer in favor.

1069
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he didn't then, doesn't push himself to try

1070
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 2: new things or have anything to say. He's just like

1071
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 2: I like that money.

1072
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 3: Take those skills and apply them to something that was

1073
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 3: wholly his own, that would be incredible. But all of

1074
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 3: these forgers, they're so good, they're great artists, but you

1075
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:59,360
Speaker 3: know they're Unorginal's ridiculous. Whoa I want to stop you

1076
00:48:59,480 --> 00:48:59,879
Speaker 3: right there.

1077
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 2: I'm impressed. Considerate mine. Mine is a little simpler. I

1078
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 2: always find it funny that the art forgers, when they

1079
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:09,120
Speaker 2: become famous, are always forged by somebody else. Yeah. We

1080
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:12,320
Speaker 2: saw that with Elma Dhiri. I mean it's just constantly

1081
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 2: like I guessed it when I was reading, and I'm like,

1082
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 2: I know somebody's forging him and it turned out to

1083
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:19,879
Speaker 2: be his own son. Yeah, so the whole father's son

1084
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 2: relationship stayed weird in the van Miergeren family. So there

1085
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 2: you go. You in the mood for a talkback or

1086
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 2: wats it's all done?

1087
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 3: Love talkbacks?

1088
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:37,279
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I love you.

1089
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:42,720
Speaker 4: Hi. I'm Kilm.

1090
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:44,880
Speaker 3: I'm from the Virginia North Carolina state border.

1091
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:48,479
Speaker 4: I am too young to be elderly, and I'm too

1092
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 4: old to be young, and I don't understand half of

1093
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 4: what happens in the world today, with computers and the

1094
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:57,479
Speaker 4: way words are pronounced now, like button and important rather

1095
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 4: than button and important. It's hard, but you take me

1096
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:05,439
Speaker 4: back to my comfort zone. How to disappear I learned

1097
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 4: it from watching you Botany five hundred. I love you guys,

1098
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 4: thank you for being familiar and comfort.

1099
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:12,880
Speaker 2: Yes, it's our pleasure.

1100
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 3: Oh you've nailed it with the button.

1101
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Elizabeth constantly mentions that.

1102
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:18,720
Speaker 3: Gears.

1103
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, just focus on the botany five hundred. Let it

1104
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 2: all wash away exactly. Well, thank you for the talk

1105
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:26,279
Speaker 2: about that was a joy. And always you can find

1106
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:29,919
Speaker 2: us online a Ridiculous Crime on the social medias and uh. Also,

1107
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,400
Speaker 2: now we have a new account, the Ridiculous Crime Pod

1108
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 2: on YouTube. Please go like and subscribe, tell a friend,

1109
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,319
Speaker 2: leave a comment. We and the interns enjoy. I'm so

1110
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 2: please do that. Also, we have our website, ridiculous Crime

1111
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 2: dot com, which recently was named a Michelin Award winning site.

1112
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 2: Although we didn't get a star, we did win what's

1113
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:51,400
Speaker 2: known as the Bib Gormond Award. Right. That's fun.

1114
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:51,879
Speaker 3: That's fun.

1115
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 2: Also, we love to hear your voices in the talkbacks,

1116
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 2: as you can tell, so please go to the iHeart

1117
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 2: app download it, leave a talkback. Maybe we'll hear your

1118
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:00,160
Speaker 2: voice here and you can email us if you want

1119
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:02,800
Speaker 2: at ridiculous Crime at gmail dot com. Please start the

1120
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:06,320
Speaker 2: email Dear producer d. Recently, we received an email that

1121
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 2: I'd like to read some highlights from it. Was sent

1122
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:10,880
Speaker 2: by a young listener and eleven year old named Calvin.

1123
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:14,200
Speaker 2: He wrote, check it, dear producer, Dave and everyone else,

1124
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 2: love your show so funny. I live in Asheville, North Carolina.

1125
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:20,239
Speaker 2: One of my favorite episodes is design Beding episode. In

1126
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 2: the Ai music episode, I especially love the picture it

1127
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 2: with the sixty year old pizza lady. That was a

1128
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:26,840
Speaker 2: good one, Elisa. With Now, thank you, Calvin. I just

1129
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 2: wanted to send a shout out to you and your

1130
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 2: Ashville Empire lacrosse team, the Carolina Redwoods. Thanks for right this, Calvin.

1131
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 2: We always appreciate it and allow me to say, go Redwoods. Okay,

1132
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 2: that's all I got for y'all. Thanks for listening, and

1133
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:47,360
Speaker 2: we will catch you next crime. Ridiculous Crime is hosted

1134
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 2: by Elizabeth Dutton and Zaron Burnett, produced and edited by

1135
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 2: our resident apothecary to the Stars Dave Coustin, and starring

1136
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:57,239
Speaker 2: Annaliese Rutger as Pooti. Research is by our favorite Dutch

1137
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:00,399
Speaker 2: Master Takila from the Wu Tang Clan Marissa Brown. Our

1138
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 2: theme song is by the Ridiculous Crime House Band and

1139
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 2: noted collectors of Souvenirs, Novelties, Party Tricks Thomas Lee and

1140
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 2: Travis Dutt. The host wardrobe provided by Botany five hundred

1141
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 2: guest hair and makeup by SPARKLESHUK. Executive producers are honorary

1142
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 2: Ridiculous historians of the Dutch Resistance, Ben Bolin and Noel Brown.

1143
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:30,240
Speaker 3: Redic Cui say it one more time Crime.

1144
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio. Four more podcasts

1145
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 1: from my heart Radio. Visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1146
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:39,720
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.