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Speaker 1: Welcome to Securing America with me Frank Afney, the program

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Speaker 1: that's a kind of owner's manual for protecting the country

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Speaker 1: we love against all enemies foreign and domestic to the

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Speaker 1: glory of God and his Kingdom. A man who is

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Speaker 1: all about the glory of God as well as the Kingdom,

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Speaker 1: as well as protecting the country we love is a

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Speaker 1: dear friend of mine, the chairman of the board of

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Speaker 1: our new Institute for the American Future. His name is

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Speaker 1: Rod Martin. He is an entrepreneur, having cut his teeth

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Speaker 1: early on in his career with the PayPal mafia, as

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Speaker 1: it's known. He has also served as a policy director

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Speaker 1: for then Governor Mike Huckabee in Arkansas, and he is

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Speaker 1: these days splitting his time between entrepreneurial activity, the Institute

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Speaker 1: for the American Future, and Rodmartin dot org, which is

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Speaker 1: a wonderful resource online of analysis and commentary, some by Rod,

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Speaker 1: some by others that we're going to tap for the

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Speaker 1: purposes of both this program and as a part of

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Speaker 1: our regular feature at Securing America.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to my friend. It's great to have you.

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Speaker 3: With us, great to be here.

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Speaker 1: As we speak, there is high drama in the National

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Speaker 1: Security Firmament in Washington, d C. Former Congressman army colonel

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Speaker 1: retired National Security Advisor to the President of the United

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Speaker 1: States Mike Waltz, has been relocated from the White House

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Speaker 1: to the appointment of US Ambassador to the United Nations

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Speaker 1: Marco Rubio. The Secretary of State has been assigned, at

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Speaker 1: least temporarily the dual hat of being the National Security

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Speaker 1: Advisor as well as the Secretary of State, as well as,

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Speaker 1: of course, the guy who's cleaning up the mess left

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Speaker 1: over from cashiering a USAID the Agency for International Development.

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Speaker 2: What do we make of all of this, Rod Martin?

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Speaker 1: Is this further evidence of the chaos theory that people

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Speaker 1: ascribe to Donald Trump or some of his past personnel gyrations.

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Speaker 1: Is this wise reallocation of supvery talented people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this makes a lot of sense.

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Speaker 4: He needed a UN ambassador obviously, and uh will Als

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Speaker 4: will be a great one.

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Speaker 3: I don't think there's any question about that.

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Speaker 4: I don't know how much signal gait actually played into this.

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Speaker 4: I would honestly hope not very much.

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Speaker 3: But the appointment and about.

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Speaker 1: Signal signal gate of course, refers to the Embroilio that

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Speaker 1: that that he was responsible for apparently of starting a

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Speaker 1: signal chat group which had a reporter added to it inadvertently.

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Speaker 4: Right, Well, you know, maybe he was responsible, maybe he wasn't.

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Speaker 4: That's what people are saying now. But what he's certain

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Speaker 4: is Donald Trump must not be too mad ad him,

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Speaker 4: or he wouldn't make him. You an ambassador. Everybody would

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Speaker 4: love to have an ambassador title. You mentioned my old

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Speaker 4: boss Mike Huckabees now ambassador to Israel and just loving that.

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Speaker 4: And uh, this is not a this is not a

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Speaker 4: cushy retirement post for Wall. This is right on the

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Speaker 4: main stage. So I don't know what the plan is

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Speaker 4: for a new NSA. I doubt it's Marco Rubio in

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Speaker 4: the long run. But what we've seen consistently is Trump

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Speaker 4: is enthused about these dual roles, at least as a

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Speaker 4: short term fix. And you saw that with Cash Betel

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Speaker 4: being named interim director of atf SO and actually Marco,

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Speaker 4: as you mentioned.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, the talent I have to say that Donald Trump

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Speaker 5: has put into place, particularly we focus primarily here at

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Speaker 5: securing America.

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Speaker 1: Of course, as you know, Rod, on the national security

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Speaker 1: foreign policy beat, it's pretty impressive, and so I think

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Speaker 1: that reassigning people where it makes sense, and this arrangement

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Speaker 1: does seem to make sense, at least temporarily in Marco's case.

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Speaker 4: Well, and it's the kind of most exact business leader makes.

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Speaker 4: It may shake up Washington, but this is pretty standard stuff.

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Speaker 4: If you've got a talented guy and you need him

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Speaker 4: in a different role, you just move him into the

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Speaker 4: different role. And Trump is clearly rested and ready after

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Speaker 4: his four year sojourn in the wilderness. They have a plan,

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Speaker 4: they have a team. Everything's clicking. It's really quite impressive.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's talk a little bit about that. You know, the.

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Speaker 1: Celebration or marking, depending on who you're talking to, of

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Speaker 1: the one hundredth day of the Trump presidency is a

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Speaker 1: tale of two cities, I guess, or two perspectives on

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Speaker 1: the city. One is that you have, of course Trump supporters, enthusiasts, admirers,

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Speaker 1: what have you describing it as one of great acomplishment

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Speaker 1: Trump says, unprecedented accomplishment.

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Speaker 2: Maybe so.

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Speaker 1: A lot of detractors, though, Rod, particularly in a space

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Speaker 1: you're very knowledgeable about, and that is the economy. What

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Speaker 1: is your assessment of the trade thrash? But also what

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Speaker 1: seemed to be some of the knock on effects and

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Speaker 1: consumer confidence, possibility of recession, and other dire analyzes of

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Speaker 1: you know, sort of forecasting that we're seeing from certain quarters.

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Speaker 4: Disruption brings a certain degree of hardship, there's no question

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Speaker 4: about that. But Trump has made very clear what he's

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Speaker 4: aiming at, and he seems to be getting there in

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Speaker 4: rapid order. We've spent since World War Two in these

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Speaker 4: lopsided trade deals where the markets we sell to get

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Speaker 4: to treat as quite badly and we open the door

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Speaker 4: to everybody who wants to come. That has made our

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Speaker 4: allies rich. It's also made China rich, and that's fine.

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Speaker 4: I mean, we wanted Germany to be rich so it

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Speaker 4: could stand up to the Soviets. We wanted France to

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Speaker 4: get back on its feet, We wanted Britain to recover.

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Speaker 4: These are good things, and of course we had a

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Speaker 4: certain desire to keep Japan from being overrun by the

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Speaker 4: Soviets as well. So these are good things. But okay,

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Speaker 4: it's thirty five years past the Cold War. Why are

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Speaker 4: we letting Canada completely free load on our defenses while

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Speaker 4: charging our dairy farmers a two hundred and eighty percent tariff.

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Speaker 4: That's insane, and that doesn't mean Ottawa collects taxes. That

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Speaker 4: means that American dairy farmers don't get to sell to Canada.

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Speaker 4: Same thing in India with one hundred percent tariff on motorcycles.

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Speaker 4: That's just keeping Harley Davidson out of their market. And

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Speaker 4: you can just go down the lip, I mean, go

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Speaker 4: to Europe. Those guys have been charging us four times

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Speaker 4: the tariff on automobiles that we charge them.

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Speaker 3: That's just absurd.

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Speaker 4: So Trump is expecting them to step up on NATO expenditures,

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Speaker 4: on their own defense spending and be able to carry

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Speaker 4: their own weight. It is ridiculous that they need us

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Speaker 4: to help in Ukraine, not that we would help, but

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Speaker 4: that they would need us to help. Europe has an

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Speaker 4: economy almost as big as the United States. Why the

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Speaker 4: heck are they so so just weak?

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Speaker 3: It's absurd.

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Speaker 4: And likewise, we're subsidizing that, not only by spending seventy

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Speaker 4: percent of what he is spent on defense in the

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Speaker 4: entire NATO alliance, we're further subsidizing it through these lopsided

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Speaker 4: trade deals. Trump's going to bring a halt to it,

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Speaker 4: and you know, we've got one hundred and thirty countries

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Speaker 4: now negotiating free trade agreements with the Trump administration. We'll

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Speaker 4: see how free they are, but it would be nearly

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Speaker 4: impossible for those agreements not to be better than the

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Speaker 4: ones we had.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, very interesting point.

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Speaker 1: We have to take a short break here in a moment.

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Speaker 1: Let me just say, I think of the countries that

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Speaker 1: you mentioned that we've enriched, China is probably not such

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Speaker 1: a good thing to have done, and we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about it, the possible changes in

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Speaker 1: the investment policies that we've been pursuing towards China. On

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Speaker 1: the other side of this very short break, stay tuned

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Speaker 1: for more of the wit and wisdom of my friend

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Speaker 1: Rod Martin.

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Speaker 2: Right after this.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back, Rod Martin is in the house virtually. We're

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Speaker 1: very pleased to say he is, of course, one of

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Speaker 1: the free range intellects that we have the privilege of

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Speaker 1: both being associated with and showcasing on this program, and I.

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Speaker 2: Couldn't be more pleased that he's a regular feature of it.

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Speaker 1: Rod, I wanted to ask you about Canada. You mentioned

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Speaker 1: that the trade imbalanced Arrangement is now being reworked. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: a collateral damage along the way was the election of

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Speaker 1: a man who professes to be particularly suited to standing

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Speaker 1: up to Donald Trump. Mark Carney the new Prime Minister. Well,

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Speaker 1: I guess he is the Prime Minister, but he's got

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Speaker 1: a new mandate for some years. Now. What do you

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Speaker 1: make of that? Is that a bad thing for America?

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Speaker 1: Collateral damage in the course of positive disruption.

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Speaker 3: I think it's very much like.

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Speaker 4: Gusts ending of Charlie Wilson's war We'll see.

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Speaker 3: You know. Could Trump have played that better?

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Speaker 4: Possibly, but I don't know that he didn't get exactly

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Speaker 4: what he wanted. The truth is the Conservatives being defeated

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Speaker 4: has created tremendous instability in Alberta and Saskatchewan. The Premiere

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Speaker 4: of Alberta introduced a new threshold on an initial on

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Speaker 4: a voter initiative, radically cut the number of signatures necessary

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Speaker 4: to get one done, and they immediately have more than

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Speaker 4: enough signatures on a petition to separate from.

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Speaker 3: Canada the fIF after all.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so they may be fifty first state, they may

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Speaker 4: be an independent country, doesn't really matter. I mean, honestly,

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Speaker 4: that would be good for Alberta and Saskatchewan far more

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Speaker 4: than it would be good for the United States, although

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Speaker 4: it'd be good for US too, But a free trade

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Speaker 4: zone with Alberta and Saskatchewan or in the alternative statehood

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Speaker 4: America would be completely energy independent. We would dominate export

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Speaker 4: markets and honestly, Alberta would quit having to pay for

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Speaker 4: all the welfare takers in the rest of Canada. They're

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Speaker 4: subsidizing the whole country. It's absurd, it's wrong. They don't

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Speaker 4: have representation to match that. They should have left Canada

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Speaker 4: long ago.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, to say nothing of the dominance that we're seeing

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Speaker 1: the Chinese Communist Party exercising and.

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Speaker 2: Most of the rest of Canada.

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately, I hope it's not true in Saskatchewan and Alberta,

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Speaker 1: but that maybe another consideration.

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Speaker 3: One of us Ottawa clearly doesn't.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: One of the other questions is in your previous comments

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Speaker 1: about Ukraine, I wanted to get your take on the

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Speaker 1: deal that finally has now been signed between the United

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Speaker 1: States and Ukraine that commits US to some part in

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Speaker 1: the well hopefully restoration of Ukraine, but also access to

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Speaker 1: rare earth minerals that are of considerable importance, especially if

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Speaker 1: we are finally decoupling from the Chinese Communist parties supply.

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Speaker 4: Chains well as your viewers know that's essential. We are

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Speaker 4: grossly dependent on China for these things that are necessary

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Speaker 4: to make iPhones and F thirty five.

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Speaker 3: It's just absurd.

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Speaker 4: And by the way, not because we don't have rare earths.

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Speaker 4: We actually have enough rare earths to be able to

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Speaker 4: supply eighty five percent of the globe Google market, not

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Speaker 4: just our own. We just don't refine them here and

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Speaker 4: it's environmentally unpleasant. There needs to be a technological breakthrough

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Speaker 4: there to do it more cleanly so that it's more

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Speaker 4: appropriate for the US.

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Speaker 3: But you know, it's not like we're not using the things.

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Speaker 4: We know perfectly well that China's screwing up their environment

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Speaker 4: and we just don't seem to care. So if you

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Speaker 4: actually care about the environment, restoring this to the United States,

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Speaker 4: and we used to actually be okay on this until

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Speaker 4: about nineteen eighty Jimmy Carter messed that up as he

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Speaker 4: did thorium reactors and lots of things. Oh yeah, this

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Speaker 4: is this is a way for us to be able

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Speaker 4: to secure our allies and pump money into.

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Speaker 3: The United States.

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Speaker 4: And as far as Ukraine is concerned, Ukraine does not

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Speaker 4: have the money, and it certainly doesn't have the technology

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Speaker 4: to be able to develop its resources adequately. We need

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Speaker 4: those resources, but we also need that to be there

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Speaker 4: so that our allies aren't dependent on China either, And

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Speaker 4: so America going in and developing that stuff is great

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Speaker 4: for Ukraine, it's great for us, and I think everybody

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Speaker 4: would be thrilled with that in keV if it weren't that.

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Speaker 4: They wanted more, and they also want commitments. We're just

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Speaker 4: not going to give them. There's no way we're putting

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Speaker 4: the US army on the Russian border.

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Speaker 3: That's just not going to happen.

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Speaker 4: But that you know, and he wants primea and he

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Speaker 4: can't have everything he wants.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's I guess the question. Do you think this arrangement,

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Speaker 1: as Donald Trump has suggested, is sufficient under the day

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Speaker 1: to keep putin at bay without having to put boots

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Speaker 1: on the ground, have you know, I guess wingtips on

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Speaker 1: the ground or construction boots if you will.

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Speaker 3: I think it helps a lot. It's not a panacea.

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Speaker 4: They're going to have to be some other arrangements probably

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Speaker 4: to make that peace lasting. It's it's very much like

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Speaker 4: what we keep talking about in China. The Russian demographic

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Speaker 4: problem is catastrophic. And you know, if you can just

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Speaker 4: out last a certain period of time, Russia is not

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Speaker 4: going to have the ability to project power back into Ukraine.

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Speaker 3: So that, dude, really the crucial time.

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Speaker 1: But yes, just to clarify on as a result of

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Speaker 1: demographic trends.

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Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, I mean Russia is dying off and this

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Speaker 4: war has made it vastly worse. And actually we've got

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Speaker 4: some really fascinating information on this at Rodmartin dot org

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Speaker 4: that I hope everybody will check out the demographic implosion

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Speaker 4: that people like Elon Musk has been warning about now

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Speaker 4: for some time, and praise God for him. People are

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Speaker 4: finally beginning to wake up to this. This has been

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Speaker 4: in progress now for several decades. The population bomb Paul

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Speaker 4: Erlick's screed from nineteen sixty eight was always wrong and

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Speaker 4: all of his predictions failed, And here we are now

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Speaker 4: we're seeing now, we're seeing the real possibility, for example,

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Speaker 4: that China could lose seventy five percent of its population

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Speaker 4: by the end of the century. And that's just catastrophic,

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Speaker 4: but more so because guess who you don't have. First,

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Speaker 4: you don't have working age people because the leading edge

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Speaker 4: of this is the young. So you have this huge

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Speaker 4: bulge of retirees that have to be paid for by

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Speaker 4: this ever shrinking working age group, and they're just really,

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Speaker 4: really in trouble. China got old before it got rich.

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Speaker 4: It may look rich from the outside, but go into

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Speaker 4: the interior and you see just how poor it truly is,

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Speaker 4: just like you do in Russia, and they have real

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Speaker 4: problems that they really can't get out out of, which

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Speaker 4: puts them at maximum danger to us right now exactly.

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Speaker 1: Rod, let me just commend to the listeners your work

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Speaker 1: on demographics, quite apart from this China piece and Russia

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Speaker 1: for that matter, is extraordinarily helpful and real real resource. Lastly,

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Speaker 1: for the day, you've also written up recently at Rodmartin

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Speaker 1: dot org a very powerful piece about the fiftieth anniversary

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Speaker 1: of the Fall of Psychon.

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Speaker 2: Give us a minute on that if you.

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Speaker 3: Would brought well.

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Speaker 4: It's just tragic, of course, and it's tragic not because

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Speaker 4: it's sad. It's tragic because it was an American betrayal.

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Speaker 4: You can argue all you want about whether we should

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Speaker 4: or shouldn't have been in the war, but the truth

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Speaker 4: is we were and Once you're there, you have obligations,

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Speaker 4: and we made specific obligations in the Treaty of Paris

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Speaker 4: in January seventy three. We were obligated to resupply the

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Speaker 4: South Vietnamese in perpetuity. We were obligated to bomb the

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Speaker 4: North if they took Soviet resupply, if they transgressed the treaty,

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Speaker 4: if they continued infiltrating through the Ho Chi Minh Trail,

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Speaker 4: all the things. And the Democrats in Congress cut all

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Speaker 4: of that off within months of the treaty, and by

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Speaker 4: the time South Vietnam fell, they didn't have gas for

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Speaker 4: their jeeps.

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Speaker 1: Set in motion, though the massacres that followed in millions

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Speaker 1: of day. Thank you Rod so much for your insights,

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Speaker 1: for joining us this week, and we look forward to

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Speaker 1: doing so next week.

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Speaker 2: God bless you man.

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Speaker 1: Excellent welcome back, and a very special welcome to our

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Speaker 1: next guest. His name is Steve Moser, and we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk with him about communist China and specifically the

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Speaker 1: threat that it poses to the Roman Catholic Church as

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Speaker 1: well as Judeo Christian civilization and certainly our country. Before

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Speaker 1: we do, I want to give you just a little

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Speaker 1: texture for the conversation we're going to have about the church.

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Speaker 1: It's a time of choosing for the Roman Catholic Church. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: its cardinals will be making a choice of a new

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Speaker 1: pope one week from today as we speak, but an

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Speaker 1: extremely powerful webinar yesterday revealed that they face an even

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Speaker 1: more immediate and arguably more fraught choice in the meantime.

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Speaker 1: The cardinals must decide whether the Church will stand with freedom,

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Speaker 1: Judaeo Christian civilization, and Yes, Jesus Christ, or submit to

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Speaker 1: a Chinese communist dictator, Jijipang, who the Vatican has secretly

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Speaker 1: to supplant all three in China. Underscoring the choice, Beijing

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Speaker 1: yesterday announced that it had unilaterally appointed two new Catholic

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Speaker 1: bishops and direct violation of a secret deal negotiated by

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Speaker 1: the reported front runner to be the next pope, Vatican

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Speaker 1: Secretary of State Pietro Perolyn. The cardinals must repudiate this

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Speaker 1: odious deal. Learn more, and urge them to do so

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Speaker 1: at Repealthdeal dot Org. We're going to turn to Steve

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Speaker 1: Moser for some further insights into this particular secret deal,

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Speaker 1: which back in twenty eighteen when it was first negotiated

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Speaker 1: by Cardinal Parolyn. He had the insight to say was

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Speaker 1: going to be disastrous and warned Parolyn and warned the

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Speaker 1: church more generally that that was the case. Cardinal Zen,

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Speaker 1: the historic and iconic Catholic bishop, initially church leader, Cardinal

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Speaker 1: of Hong Kong, actually put it in a very powerful way.

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Speaker 1: He called it a suicide pact. And we're going to

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Speaker 1: take stock both of why that is so and how

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Speaker 1: it has become more and more obviously the case with

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Speaker 1: Steve Moser, and then talk about some other aspects of

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Speaker 1: what's going on with China. Let me just say Steve

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Speaker 1: is an author of a number of books, including Bully

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Speaker 1: of Asia, important one about pandemics, but also most recently

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Speaker 1: The Devil and Communist China, perfect introduction to this very

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Speaker 1: important topic. He is a member of our Committee on

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Speaker 1: the Present Danger China, for which I am very grateful,

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Speaker 1: as well as the president and driving force behind the

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Speaker 1: Population Research Institute. Steve Motion, it's great to have you

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Speaker 1: back in the house.

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Speaker 2: Welcome sir.

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Speaker 6: It's good to be with you again, Frank, and congratulations

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Speaker 6: to you and all of the committee for the great

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Speaker 6: work that you're doing on this issue of the Sino

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Speaker 6: Vatican Agreement, as well as so many other issues concerning China,

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Speaker 6: which of course is the paramount threat to the United States,

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Speaker 6: indeed to the existence of human freedom across the world.

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Speaker 1: Well, back at you, thank you for your very important

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Speaker 1: leadership in our committee. So, Steve, your understanding of this

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Speaker 1: secret agreement and what it would almost certainly result in

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Speaker 1: is a matter of not just historical note, but relevance

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Speaker 1: to today. If you can give us a bit of

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Speaker 1: the backstory, among other things, of your conversations with the negotiator,

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Speaker 1: Cardinal Perilin on the subject.

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Speaker 6: I'm not sure that Cardinal Peroline actually negotiated anything. We'll

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Speaker 6: get to that point in a minute. But let me

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Speaker 6: back up here and say that the founder of the

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Speaker 6: People's Republic of China, like all committed Marxist was absolutely

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Speaker 6: hostile to organized religion and was determined when Mao Zittong

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Speaker 6: took power in nineteen forty nine in China, overall of China,

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Speaker 6: he was determined to stamp out all religious faith in China,

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Speaker 6: which he described as one of the four thick ropes

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Speaker 6: ropes binding the Chinese people. Well, he was going to

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Speaker 6: bind the Chinese people in a different way with a

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Speaker 6: thick rope of communism, but he set out to destroy,

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Speaker 6: especially Christianity, which he regarded as a foreign religion even

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Speaker 6: though it had been in China for over a thousand years,

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Speaker 6: and specifically Catholicism, because Catholicism is not only in his view,

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Speaker 6: a foreign religion, but one that was led by a foreigner,

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Speaker 6: specifically the Pope in the Vatican in Italy in Europe.

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Speaker 6: That project lasted seven years, during the course of which

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Speaker 6: many Catholics were tortured, some were martyred, and the project

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Speaker 6: to eliminate the Catholic Church in China over those few

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Speaker 6: years failed miserably, and so Chairman now at that point,

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Speaker 6: backed up and decided to instead of destroying the Catholic Church,

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Speaker 6: to set up a faux church, the Patriotic Catholic Church,

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Speaker 6: in order to infiltrate Catholicism, control Catholicism, and co op

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Speaker 6: the Catholic Church from the inside. That project, of course,

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Speaker 6: continues to the present day with the Catholic Patriotic Church,

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Speaker 6: but it failed in the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties.

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Speaker 6: I know it failed because in nineteen ninety five I

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Speaker 6: was in Hong Kong and I met with the then

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Speaker 6: papal nuncio to China, Monsignor Feloni, later Cardinal of Filoni,

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Speaker 6: and we had a long meeting about the state of

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Speaker 6: the Catholic Church in China, and he told me that

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Speaker 6: the Catholic Church in China was united. It was not

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Speaker 6: divided between the patriotic Church and the underground church. He

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Speaker 6: astonished me by saying it was united. And I said,

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Speaker 6: what do you mean, Monsignor. He said, Well, all of

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Speaker 6: the Catholics.

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Speaker 7: In China are loyal to the Vatican.

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Speaker 6: Nearly all the priests are as well, he said, And

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Speaker 6: with the exception of two bishops, all of the bishops

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Speaker 6: in China have been recognized by the Vatican as legitimate

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Speaker 6: illit bishops.

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Speaker 7: He said.

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Speaker 6: The only two exceptions are the Bishop of Shanghai and

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Speaker 6: the Bishop of Beijing. They've made too many compromises to

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Speaker 6: the Chinese Communist Party. But as for the rest, the

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Speaker 6: Church is unified, he said, with a smile. Well, that

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Speaker 6: was the happy state in the late nineteen nineties. In

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Speaker 6: the early two thousands, and then in twenty twelve, two

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Speaker 6: things happened that dramatically changed this happy situation. The first

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Speaker 6: was that Pope Benedict the sixteenth passed away and elected

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Speaker 6: in his place was Pope Francis. The second thing that

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Speaker 6: happened was that a new leader of the Chinese Communist

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Speaker 6: Party emerged, Si Gene Ping, who is virtually an ideological

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Speaker 6: clone of Mau Zetto, who, like Mao, hates religion and

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Speaker 6: wants to stamp it out, replacing it with the cult,

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Speaker 6: the ideological cult of communism, and so he began to

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Speaker 6: tighten the screws on the Catholic Church at the same

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Speaker 6: time that Pope Francis began to seek some sort of

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Speaker 6: concord at some sort of agreement with the Chinese Communist Party.

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Speaker 6: In his naivete, in his embrace of socialism, in his

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Speaker 6: desire to have some sort of formal agreement with the

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Speaker 6: Chinese Communist Party, he sent to China the worst possible

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Speaker 6: emissary to negotiate such an agreement. People will be astonished

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Speaker 6: to learn that he sent the disgraced, defraudt ex Cardinal

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Speaker 6: Theodore mccarriy to China to represent the Vatican in its

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Speaker 6: negotiations with the Chinese Communist Party over the future of

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Speaker 6: the Catholic Church in China. Now I can't imagine a

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Speaker 6: worse emissary as we all know.

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Speaker 2: Mccarriy, could I just ask a question clarification.

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Speaker 1: Had mccarrot been disgraced to defraudt prior to that yes?

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Speaker 2: Mission, Yes he had.

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Speaker 6: Frank he had been told by Pope Benedict to withdraw

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Speaker 6: from active ministry. He ignored that order even at the time,

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Speaker 6: and once Pope Francis emerged as the new Pope, he

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Speaker 6: came out publicly and openly and was sent by the

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Speaker 6: Pope as his emissary to China. We actually have copies

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Speaker 6: of his correspondence to Pope Francis saying that he promised

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Speaker 6: Pope Francis.

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Speaker 7: This is Theodore Mcarick speaking.

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Speaker 6: I promised to fulfill the ancient dream of Matteo Ricci,

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Speaker 6: the great Jesuit missionary to China back in the seventeenth century.

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Speaker 6: I promised to fulfill the mission of Mateo Ricci and

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Speaker 6: bring you China.

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Speaker 7: Holy Father.

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Speaker 6: Well, that was quite an extravagant promise. He went to China.

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Speaker 1: I had been told that one other consideration for Francis Steve,

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Speaker 1: which may or may not be the most important one, but.

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Speaker 2: That he had this.

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Speaker 1: Well, Shakespeare would call it vaulting ambition to be the

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00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 1: first pope to go to China, not so much to

439
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: bring China to the Pope, but to bring the Pope

440
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: to China. Did that feature in all this to you?

441
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 6: Absolutely, There's no question that he imagined himself making a

442
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 6: kind of triumphal entry into Beijing, normalizing relations between the

443
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 6: Chinese Communist Party and the Vatican, and again, you know,

444
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 6: achieving a kind of concordat with the Chinese Communist Party.

445
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 6: Terribly naive, overly ambitious, but encouraged by a corrupt former

446
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 6: cardinal who one can imagine when he went to China.

447
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 6: I'm sure that the Chinese Communist Party took full advantages

448
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 6: of his weaknesses, McCarry's weaknesses. In any event, that was

449
00:30:55,520 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 6: the agreement by which you mean his sexual traditional elections.

450
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 6: We know the Chinese Communist Party uses honeypots, uses drugs,

451
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 6: uses money to accomplish its ends.

452
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 5: And.

453
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 6: I think that McCarrick may have been vulnerable on at

454
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 6: least two of those counts from what we.

455
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 1: Know, and probably repeatedly for the purposes of these negotiations.

456
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 6: Absolutely so, then we come to the year twenty eighteen.

457
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 6: In the meantime, we have seen restrictions, increasing restrictions on

458
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 6: all religious activity in China, increasingly onerous restrictions on their activity,

459
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 6: the activity not just of Catholics, but of Christians in general,

460
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 6: of Buddhists, of Daoas of Higer Muslim, of the Tibetan Buddhists,

461
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 6: and so forth, all of whom are operating under increasingly

462
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 6: tight restrictions imposed by a dictator who wants to replace

463
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 6: the Church of the Catholic Church in China with what

464
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 6: I call the of China.

465
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: I'm over time, hold the thought. We'll be right back

466
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 1: with more. Stay tuned for more with Stephen Mosher. Welcome back.

467
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: We are visiting with the great Steve Moser. He is

468
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 1: one of the first Westerners, certainly the first social scientists

469
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 1: to get into China when it opened its doors a

470
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: crack back in the nineteen seventies. There's a tale there

471
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 1: as well, what he learned about the one child policy

472
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: that has informed the work he's done ever since, notably

473
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: with his Population Research Institute. But his mastery of what

474
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: is the story of the Chinese Communist Party is unsurpassed,

475
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 1: and we always appreciate the chance to pick his brains.

476
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 1: As we've been doing about this secret deal that was

477
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: negotiated in twenty eighteen, and I unfortunately lost track of

478
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 1: the time, Steve, so I had to cut you off.

479
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 1: Pick up with what happened in twenty eighteen. After McCarrick

480
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 1: began this process of negotiating a new arrangement with the

481
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 1: Chinese Communist.

482
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 6: Party, by the spring of twenty eighteen, it was clear

483
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 6: that the Vatican was moving very quickly towards signing an

484
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 6: agreement with China with the Chinese Communist Party. If I

485
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:43,239
Speaker 6: say China, I always mean the Chinese Communist Party. And

486
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 6: so I requested and got a meeting with Card Perlin,

487
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 6: the Secretary of State responsible for the negotiations with the

488
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 6: Chinese Communist Party. And I sat down with him for

489
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 6: a full hour and explained to him.

490
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 7: When the whole gamut of.

491
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 6: The Chinese Communist Party's human rights violations with regard especially

492
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 6: to violations of religious freedom. I told him that the

493
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 6: walls were closing in on religious believers in China and

494
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 6: that now was the worst possible time to in effect

495
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 6: endorse that behavior by signing some kind of agreement with China.

496
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 7: I told him in great detail how China.

497
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 6: Had violated every international agreement it had ever signed, from

498
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 6: the Nuclear non Proliferation Agreement to the agreement joining the

499
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 6: World Trade Organization. You can list literally dozens of agreements

500
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,399
Speaker 6: that the Chinese Communist Party signed only to gain a

501
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,760
Speaker 6: political strategic advantage, generally over the West and the United States.

502
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 6: And I said, they will violate this agreement before the

503
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 6: ink is dry on the paper. I said, finally, that

504
00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 6: the Chinese Communist Party will insist that every join that

505
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 6: priests and bishops formally register with the government, which would

506
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 6: be tantamount to joining the Patriotic Catholic Association. And he said,

507
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,959
Speaker 6: to my great surprise, he said two things. He said

508
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 6: a number of things, but two things stand out in

509
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 6: my mind. The first was he said, we have no

510
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 6: objection to the requirement that priests and bishops register with

511
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 6: the government. Well, you're not talking about the government, you're eminent.

512
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 6: You're talking about the Chinese Communist Party, which will use

513
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 6: that registration to produce them. Secondly, he said, the agreement

514
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 6: is already negotiated. We are just waiting for the Chinese

515
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:48,240
Speaker 6: side to sign the agreement. At that point I realized

516
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 6: that the agreement was a done deal. It was signed

517
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:57,800
Speaker 6: that September and has been regularly renewed in the years since,

518
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 6: even in the face of flagrant and open violations of

519
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 6: what we supposed to be the terms of the secret

520
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 6: agreement over the appointment of bishops. But let me tell

521
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 6: you how bad the naivete of the Vatican and Cardinal

522
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 6: Perlin has been. And I call it naivete. I mean,

523
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 6: that's the best gloss I can put on it. There

524
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 6: are worse interpretations, obviously, But just as a side note,

525
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 6: I did once ask Cardinal George Pell, the great Australian

526
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:35,800
Speaker 6: cardinal who was brought in to clean up the Vatican finances,

527
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 6: if there was evidence of payments from the Chinese Communist

528
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 6: Party into the Vatican's coffers. And Cardinal Pell told me

529
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 6: I've knew the cardinal for a long time. He said,

530
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 6: there's no evidence in the official records of payments from

531
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 6: the Chinese Communist Party of any kind, he said, but

532
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 6: I cannot speak to any private payments that may have

533
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 6: been made to individuals.

534
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:00,879
Speaker 7: Said about that.

535
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 6: So we come back to twenty nineteen, and by this time,

536
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 6: a year after the signing the agreement, churches are being

537
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 6: torn down a convents that are being built for orders

538
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 6: of underground nuns are being demolished, Shrines that have existed

539
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,320
Speaker 6: in China for hundreds of years are being demolished, Statues

540
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 6: are being torn down, and worst of all, priests and

541
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 6: bishops of the underground Church are being brought into forcibly,

542
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 6: brought into meetings with Chinese Communist officials at which they

543
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 6: are required to quote register with the government, which actually

544
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 6: means registering as members of the Catholic Patriotic Association, which

545
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 6: is run by and for the Chinese Communist Party and

546
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 6: which is officially in schism with Rome. That is to say,

547
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:56,240
Speaker 6: they are being required to join a schismatic organization dividing

548
00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 6: the Church. What does the Vatican say about this? In

549
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 6: an unsigned document from the Vatican, which I suspect was

550
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 6: written by someone in the Secretariat of State, it says

551
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,840
Speaker 6: to the bishops and the priests of China, if you

552
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 6: are brought into such a meeting and required to sign

553
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 6: an agreement joining the Catholic Patriotic Association, bring in witnesses

554
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 6: so that they can witness the fact that you're signing

555
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:26,320
Speaker 6: under duress. Or if you're not allowed to bring in witnesses,

556
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 6: make a note at the bottom of the agreement that

557
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:33,479
Speaker 6: you're joining the Catholic Patriotic Association, saying I'm joining under

558
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 6: protest Well, obviously in a communist country, neither of those

559
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 6: options is viable. You're not going to be allowed to

560
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 6: bring in witnesses, You're not going to be allowed to

561
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:44,800
Speaker 6: write anything on the document.

562
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 7: Other than your signature. Anyway, This just underlines the.

563
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 6: Total naivete of the Vatican and its desire to have

564
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 6: this agreement at whatever cost to the underground church and

565
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 6: the underground bishops and the underground priests of China. And

566
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,240
Speaker 6: the cost has been tremendestly heavy.

567
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,760
Speaker 1: I want to get into those costs with you as well, Steve.

568
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:09,720
Speaker 1: But just to wrap this up, the absence of any

569
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,839
Speaker 1: such notation on the page would presumably be seen by

570
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 1: the Church as evidence that you know, they were not

571
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:23,439
Speaker 1: in fact objecting and that all is actually well, as

572
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 1: would be the line of the Chinese Communist Party, right.

573
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 7: I suppose so.

574
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 6: But no one outside of the country of China, outside

575
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:38,800
Speaker 6: of the Office of Religious Affairs, will ever see these documents.

576
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 6: Just like the agreement itself. These documents are our secret.

577
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: Now I have before you go anywhere further, we have

578
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 1: to take a short break. We'll be right back with

579
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 1: more with Stephen Mosher on well, what has been the

580
00:39:54,400 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: horrific cost and the further dire implications of this deal,

581
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 1: especially if it were to be now effectively entrusted to

582
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 1: a new.

583
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 2: Pope who is very much in favor of it. Stay tuned,

584
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 2: we'll be right back.

585
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:37,919
Speaker 1: We're back for this concluding segment with Steve Moser, the

586
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 1: author of The Devil.

587
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 2: And Chinese and Communist China. Let me do that again.

588
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 1: The Devil and Communist China a very apt platform from

589
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 1: which to take stock of what I consider to be

590
00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 1: truly a demonic deal struck by the Church back in

591
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,879
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen and then subsequently react most recently a few

592
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: months ago, for four years. And Steve, you have a

593
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 1: couple of other insights about this cardinal perilin that I

594
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: want to make sure we address the extent to which,

595
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 1: not least he would be expected to be a very

596
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 1: strong supporter of this arrangement were he to become the pope.

597
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:42,280
Speaker 6: The Cardinal Perlin's prestige as the Secretary of State is heavily,

598
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 6: heavily dependent upon the continuation of the Sino Vatican agreement.

599
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 6: Which he shepherded through the process, and of course continues

600
00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 6: to renew it. Has continued to renew it over the

601
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 6: last of seven years now, even in the face of

602
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 6: evidence that the Chinese Communist Party is violating the supposed

603
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 6: terms of the agreement which require the Pope to have

604
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 6: a veto over the appointment of bishops. This provision, which

605
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 6: is key of course to the authority of the papacy.

606
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 6: The Pope has the authority to appoint bishops in the

607
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:30,879
Speaker 6: Catholic Church, has been violated repeatedly by China. Violated two

608
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 6: years ago when they moved a bishop into the Sea

609
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:40,760
Speaker 6: of Shanghai, the most important diocese in China, without even

610
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:44,240
Speaker 6: notifying the Vatican, leaving the Vatican embarrassed, leaving the Vatican

611
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 6: saying that the sin of Vatican Agreement was basically being violated,

612
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 6: was a dead letter, and yet within a few months

613
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 6: Pope Francis recognized this illicitly transferred bishop as the legitimate

614
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:03,840
Speaker 6: bishops of Shanghai, ignoring the fact that the real bishop

615
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 6: in charge of Shanghai has been imprisoned for over ten

616
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 6: years now somewhere in the outskirts of Shanghai. And then,

617
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 6: of course, after Pope Francis died, the Chinese Communist Party,

618
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 6: in what can only be described as a truly shocking move,

619
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 6: appointed two new bishops, and of course without the approval

620
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 6: of the Pope, there is no pope right now, So

621
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 6: how could the pope have even vetoed. They knew that

622
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 6: the Pope had died, They knew that they didn't bother

623
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 6: going through the process of waiting for a new pope

624
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 6: before appointing their own bishops.

625
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 7: So the agreement is, I believe, a dead letter, and yet.

626
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 6: Cardinal Perlin continues to try the pretense that there is

627
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:55,240
Speaker 6: actually an agreement with China. I don't believe, actually, Frank,

628
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 6: that the agreement has ever been signed by the Chinese side.

629
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 6: I think that it was clear to years ago in

630
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 6: the connection with the appointment of the new Bishop of

631
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 6: Shanghai that Cardinal Perlin said, you have to understand the

632
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 6: agreement is still a work in progress, and that's why

633
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 6: we can't release the text of the agreement. Well, any

634
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 6: negotiations that are still continuing mean what they mean. There

635
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 6: is no set agreement, There is no sign concord at

636
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,840
Speaker 6: there is no signed accord. There is just the pious

637
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:27,799
Speaker 6: Hope on the part of the Vatican that somedays, somehow,

638
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 6: if the Vatican behaves itself, that the Chinese Communist Party

639
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:32,280
Speaker 6: will as well.

640
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 7: That will never happen.

641
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 1: This just adds more ignominy to the whole enterprise, doesn't it.

642
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 1: But Steve, I want to spend the remaining a couple

643
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:44,879
Speaker 1: of minutes we have talking about the damage that's been

644
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: done either by the deal itself to some extent, but

645
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: as it's fairly limited in scope apparently, but who knows

646
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 1: because nobody's seen it, but in terms of what it

647
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 1: has done virtue of legitimizing the Chinese Communist Party and

648
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 1: some of these arrangements that govern the Patriotic Catholic Church

649
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 1: for example, which by the way, one of the most

650
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 1: interesting things that came out of this webinar, and I

651
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 1: strongly commend it to everyone. You can find it at

652
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 1: repealthedeal dot org.

653
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 2: Was the point that.

654
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 1: The so called Patriotic Church Catholic Church has been actually

655
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:37,760
Speaker 1: moved in the official wiring diagrams from the State apparatus

656
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 1: to the United Front Work Department, which is of course

657
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 1: the vehicle for influence operations and political warfare of the

658
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 1: Chinese Communist Party, is it not?

659
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:55,399
Speaker 6: It is, and the United Front Department exists to infiltrate

660
00:45:56,360 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 6: and co opt and control organizations outside the Chinese Communist Party.

661
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 6: So putting the Catholic Church and religious affairs in general

662
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 6: under the United Front Department makes it clear that the

663
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 6: Chinese Communist Party's goal is precisely that to infiltrate, to

664
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 6: co opt and control the Catholic Church in China and

665
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 6: basically drive a wedge between it and the Universal Church,

666
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 6: making it into a vehicle that serves the interests and

667
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 6: the ideology and the purposes of the Chinese Communist Party,

668
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,439
Speaker 6: not the purposes that Jesus Christ had in mind when

669
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 6: he set up the church in the world. Today, the

670
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 6: deal needs to be repealed. It needs to be completely repudiated.

671
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:40,879
Speaker 7: By the Vatican, and the.

672
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 6: Underground church that still exists needs to be supported.

673
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: And if that is not done now, Steve, if this

674
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 1: is not very much part of, if not the run

675
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 1: up to the conclave, ideally, but certainly the conclave and

676
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 1: the selection of a pope, what are the likely results

677
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 1: going to be with respect of the deal?

678
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 6: The likely results are going to be a continuation of

679
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 6: what we've seen over the last ten years, the continuing

680
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 6: persecution of faithful Catholics in China, the continued destruction of

681
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 6: the Catholic Church in China, with the ultimate goal of

682
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 6: the Chinese Communist Party being to stamp out Catholicism entirely

683
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:28,880
Speaker 6: within its borders.

684
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 7: That is not something.

685
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 6: That any pope should in any way be a part

686
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 6: of or be a part of presiding over. And so

687
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 6: I would hope the deal is repealed, and that the

688
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 6: new pope, if it is not repealed before the new

689
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 6: Pope is elected, that he himself will repeal it, disavow it,

690
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 6: and repudiate it.

691
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:53,800
Speaker 1: And of course our repeal the Deal campaign is aimed

692
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:57,800
Speaker 1: at making sure that it's a condition of employment. Basically,

693
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 1: we don't want a pope running the Catholic Church playing

694
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 1: the role, the moral role worldwide, not far beyond China,

695
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:12,280
Speaker 1: who is essentially beholden to the Chinese Communist Party. Steve Mosa,

696
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:13,760
Speaker 1: we have to leave it at that for the moment,

697
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 1: so much more to cover. Please come back soon if

698
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 1: you would. In the meantime, godspeed in your great work

699
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:24,879
Speaker 1: at the Population Research Institute, your amazing resource. I thank

700
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 1: you the rest of you will join us again next

701
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 1: time until then, go forth and multiply