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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a wildly popular and beautiful

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Speaker 1: Seattle podcast. Her and her ex Google engineer husband murdered

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Speaker 1: and they're one point six million dollar home. But why

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Speaker 1: I mean, Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thanks for

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Speaker 1: being with us here at Fox Nation in series x

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Speaker 1: M one eleven. First of all, take a listen to

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Speaker 1: our friends at ABC. Police say this man, thirty eight

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Speaker 1: year old Ramine Hoda Karamzi, stalked, shot, and killed podcaster

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Speaker 1: Zori Sadegi and her husband Active Paus situation. A neighbor

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Speaker 1: says their security camera caught the commotion overnight. There was

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Speaker 1: blood curdling. Investigators say Hodo karam res I listened to

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Speaker 1: Sadegi's live podcast for people who speak Farsi looking for

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Speaker 1: jobs in the tech industry, and befriended her through a

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Speaker 1: chat app. They communicated, but things quickly escalated. In the

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Speaker 1: first homicide in the city of Redmond since twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 1: a crazed stalker obsessed with the woman killed her and

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Speaker 1: her husband before turning the gun on himself. This is

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Speaker 1: the absolute worst outcome, you know, for a stalking case.

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Speaker 1: Police Chief Darryl Lowe says, this man thirty eight year

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Speaker 1: old Romaine from Texas is the suspect. He came to

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Speaker 1: the neighborhood and this red truck Tuesday overnight. The suspect

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Speaker 1: broke into the home via bedroom window, that bedroom being

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Speaker 1: the mother's. She did encounter the suspect. She was aware

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Speaker 1: of what was occurring, and she knew or realized that

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Speaker 1: she needed to get out and get help, police say.

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Speaker 1: The mother of the wife ran for her life to

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Speaker 1: a neighbor's house to call nine one one. When officers arrived,

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Speaker 1: the mother and neighbor led them to the home. As

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Speaker 1: officers approached the front of the home, a meal later

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Speaker 1: identified as the husband of the victim was seen in

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Speaker 1: a doorway. How did this whole thing unfold in a

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Speaker 1: happy marriage and a wonderful podcast as it were? How

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Speaker 1: did this guy get to them? With me an all

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Speaker 1: star panel to make sense of what we know right now?

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Speaker 1: But first I'm want to go to Isabel Vincent, investigative

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Speaker 1: reporter for The New York Post and author of Overture

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Speaker 1: of Hope, Two Sisters, Daring plan that saved Opera's Jewish

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Speaker 1: stars from the third Reich okay wow to that. You

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Speaker 1: can find her at Isabel Vincent dot com. Isabel, thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for being with us. Now I understand

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Speaker 1: that the victim, this gorgeous young woman is Zori, somehow

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Speaker 1: met the killer in a podcast. I've also heard it

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Speaker 1: described as a chat room. Which one was it? Do

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Speaker 1: you know us about? Well, from from everything that I

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Speaker 1: that I could see, it was a chat room. She

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Speaker 1: met him. They developed a kind of online friendship that

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Speaker 1: started to turn very dark when he kept calling her um.

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Speaker 1: He started to call her husband UM. And we're talking

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Speaker 1: like at one point he called her the suspect called

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Speaker 1: her a hundred times a day UM. And you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the things I want to stress is that

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Speaker 1: this woman today he she had just had back surgery

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Speaker 1: and she was practically immobile. UM. So from November of

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, we see that she contacted the police

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Speaker 1: because she started to get really concerned about this and

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Speaker 1: then at you know, at a at one point, the

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Speaker 1: trucker shows up at her home with some flowers. Oh

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Speaker 1: my goodness. You know, hold on, Isabel, Guys, you're hearing

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Speaker 1: the voice of Isabel Vincent. I'm sure you know her well.

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Speaker 1: Investigative reporter for the New York Posts and author of

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Speaker 1: an incredible book with me. Renounced psychologist out of Manhattan,

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Speaker 1: Karen Stark an expert in this field. You can find

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Speaker 1: her at Karen Stark dot com. That's Karen with a

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Speaker 1: See Karen. How is it that people become attached seemingly

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Speaker 1: over the internet. This is she's a well known podcaster.

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Speaker 1: But they're in a chatman was where they first met.

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Speaker 1: How does that intimacy bond build up, or at least

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Speaker 1: on the part of one of them. It is kind

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Speaker 1: of delusional, Nancy, the one person stock in person, the

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Speaker 1: one on the internet. It begins to imagine that there's

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Speaker 1: more to the relationship than is actually happening. So suppose

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Speaker 1: you and I close friends, right, and we're talking to

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Speaker 1: each other, and then all of a sudden, I decide

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Speaker 1: that I'm your best friend. You could do without me.

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Speaker 1: I've got to be with you all the time. And

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Speaker 1: it's a real attempt to control and be dependent on

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Speaker 1: the other person. Well, we're hearing Isabel Vinca describe how

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Speaker 1: they meet the chat room, and he identifies this podcaster

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Speaker 1: and he becomes obsessed with her. With every case, when

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Speaker 1: you're trying to establish what happened you first look at

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Speaker 1: your victim. Who is your victim? Is your victim a prostitute?

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Speaker 1: Is that how she met the killer? Is your victim?

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Speaker 1: An addict? Is the killer? Her supplier is your victim?

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Speaker 1: A dope dealer? Is she supplying dope? Is your victim

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Speaker 1: involved in any nefarious activity? You look at that first,

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Speaker 1: and believe me, this woman was examined every which way.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friend Dave matt a crime

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Speaker 1: online dot com. Zora Sadeggi and her husband Mohammed Nasai,

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Speaker 1: we're active on social media. They posted about their love

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Speaker 1: of science fiction. They posted about progressive politics and human

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Speaker 1: rights in Iran. They posted about their love of technology.

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Speaker 1: Both Sadeggi and Nasare were software engineers. Nasri blogged about

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Speaker 1: his efforts to get a job at Google in twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 1: He did, and he worked there for five years before

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Speaker 1: going to Amazon. Sadegi worked at Promontory Mortgage path until

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Speaker 1: it closed doors late last year. While Sadegi has been

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Speaker 1: looking for a new job, she was also a podcaster

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Speaker 1: of sorts, curating a chat room on the app Clubhouse

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Speaker 1: for Farsi speaking individuals who like Sadegi. We're trying to

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Speaker 1: find jobs in the tech world. To say the couple

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Speaker 1: was successful would be accurate. Married since twenty eleven, they

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Speaker 1: bought a one point six million dollar home in Redmond, Washington,

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Speaker 1: famous for being the site of Microsoft's headquarters. You know

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Speaker 1: when it's come like that, Isabel Vincent joining us from

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Speaker 1: the New York Post. They sound like a perfect cup. Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I know, believe me, I know Isabel from

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Speaker 1: trying so many homicides. When you look at people on

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Speaker 1: the outside, it looks like a Hallmark movie, but it's

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Speaker 1: not always that way. I mean, look at her. She

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Speaker 1: looks like a model, the beautiful brown eyes, the perfect brows,

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Speaker 1: her hair's back and as my daughter calls it, a

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Speaker 1: messy bun, perfect teeth. I mean, she's gorgeous. The husband

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Speaker 1: also handsome, and these beautiful futures in front of them.

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Speaker 1: You know who it's reminding me of Isabel. It's reminding

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Speaker 1: me of Scott Peterson, because I said at the trial

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Speaker 1: every day and many people Isabel, not me, but many

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Speaker 1: people thought Scott Peterson is so handsome. He's got a

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Speaker 1: college degree, he's got this beautiful, perfect smile, he's a

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Speaker 1: golf phenom. He's got this beautiful wife home. Okay, I'll

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Speaker 1: admit I looked in the windows of the home. It

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Speaker 1: looked like a dollhouse, Isabelle. It was beautifully decorated, Lacy

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Speaker 1: Peter Peterson had done this beautiful job on it. They're

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Speaker 1: expecting their first child, a baby boy, loving and laws

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Speaker 1: and parents. I mean, it was perfect, right, and then

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Speaker 1: pop sat the picture of Amber Fry, who I've spoken

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Speaker 1: to many times, A lovely young woman, beautiful mistress. She

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Speaker 1: had no idea he was married. So what I'm saying

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Speaker 1: is they look great, and they had this awesome up

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Speaker 1: and coming career happening to them, and at one point

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Speaker 1: six million dollar home. I mean, you think what could

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Speaker 1: go wrong? I Am I missing something, as Sabell. Is

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Speaker 1: there something darker, nefarious going on in their lives that

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Speaker 1: we don't know about? No, I think they were the

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Speaker 1: successful couple. I mean, looking back at public records, they bought.

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Speaker 1: They bought their home in April of twenty twenty one.

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Speaker 1: The home's beautiful. It has two fireplaces, it has a bar,

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Speaker 1: beautiful deck, several bedrooms in a very posh neighborhood. And

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Speaker 1: they it looks like they have been in the United

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Speaker 1: States since about twenty and fifteen. That's the earliest letter

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Speaker 1: there Isabelle. I know you're an incredible investigative reporter and

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Speaker 1: now author, but I need a shrink quickly. Karen Stark,

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Speaker 1: do you remember I don't know if it's still in

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Speaker 1: the air, maybe and rerun somewhere, Jackie. Maybe you were

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Speaker 1: sitting though the Martha Stewart Show, a program that would

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Speaker 1: come on in the afternoons. Had to be a really

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Speaker 1: long time ago, because I would watch it when I

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Speaker 1: was trying cases. And this is why Karen start. She

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Speaker 1: had some kind of oh was at Turkey Hill or

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Speaker 1: Turkey Farm or something like that where she had a

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Speaker 1: Please look it up, I need to remember. Anyway, it

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Speaker 1: was beautiful and she's perfect, and she would make all

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Speaker 1: these you know, special dishes and decorating tips, and I

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Speaker 1: would be sitting there surrounded by homicide trial files, and

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Speaker 1: for thirty minutes, I would just be lost in this world. Okay,

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Speaker 1: same thing happens when I go on Zillah. Okay, I

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Speaker 1: look and all these times I think, wow, that'd be

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Speaker 1: a great backyard for the twins, or this or that

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Speaker 1: I could just see us all gathered around this table

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Speaker 1: or that that den looks so great with the huge

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Speaker 1: screaming TV. Do you hear Isabel Vincent describing their home?

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Speaker 1: I do, yeah, and I'm thinking, wow, that sounds great,

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Speaker 1: and you know, it's just shattered by this crazy person.

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Speaker 1: And I'm staying crazy in the lay sense, not the

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Speaker 1: legal sense that comes and ruins their life. Did you

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Speaker 1: hear what she said? Nothing the fairy, They're just minding

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Speaker 1: their business. Isabel Vincent actually just scared me because it's like,

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Speaker 1: no matter what you do right, you can still be

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Speaker 1: a victim. People have Oh wait, I think I hear

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Speaker 1: someone jumping in its sky to be either doctor Jensen,

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Speaker 1: Lee Newbecker, Paul's like or Matthew Mangino. Who is it.

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Speaker 1: I'm betting on Mangino. Well, it wasn't mean Nancy, But

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Speaker 1: I would like to say that, you know, oftentimes when

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Speaker 1: we look at victims, we look for a connection somehow,

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Speaker 1: you know, something that they did that that may have

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Speaker 1: put them in a situation where they were in peril.

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Speaker 1: But it appears in this case that there is nothing

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Speaker 1: that these um, this young couple did to put themselves

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Speaker 1: in peril. Uh you have I was crazy? I disagree?

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Speaker 1: This is Lee Becker Jampan guys with me is Lee

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Speaker 1: new Beecker, president of Enigma Forensics. That sounds impressed. I

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Speaker 1: can't really tell what that means, but I like Enigma

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Speaker 1: and I like forensics. He's at Enigma Forensics dot com. Lee,

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Speaker 1: go ahead, Well, if you're going to be online, once

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Speaker 1: you put your personal cellphone number out there, you open

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Speaker 1: yourself to master VELAs called me. Well, just let me

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Speaker 1: finish here. In the chat rooms, people commonly share things

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Speaker 1: you can find. If you have your personal phone number

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Speaker 1: out online, you can quickly locate where someone loves it.

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Speaker 1: Nanswer your assistant that I spoke with. I showed her

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Speaker 1: a picture of her home. I showed her a limited

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Speaker 1: amount of how you can be stocked. Well, wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: who are we talking about? All right? Booker, Okay, per

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Speaker 1: quit looking Rachel up online? Right there, I was demonstrating

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Speaker 1: to her that she should get a Burner phone or

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Speaker 1: a Google phone number to add a buffer. Hey, question

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Speaker 1: to you, Lee new Becker, Lee, You're absolutely right. I

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Speaker 1: assume you've read Don't Be a Victim by Myself, which

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Speaker 1: talks about online dating and what you should and should

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Speaker 1: not do. The same goes for everybody. So question do

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Speaker 1: you and I want you to answer this once and

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Speaker 1: for all. Can unadjore as B track through a cell phone? Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: A lot of people think it's got to be a landline.

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Speaker 1: That's absolutely not true. You're absolutely right. You can quickly

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Speaker 1: see a Facebook all your friends and family, and people

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Speaker 1: can blackmail and extort you. So you really got to

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Speaker 1: be careful with your number. That's how I find people. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it is. I tend to agree. You know. The reality

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Speaker 1: is the algorithm that are out there today are always

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Speaker 1: looking to connect data points. They take a phone number

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Speaker 1: with an address and they put it together. And I

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Speaker 1: can tell you, in the ten years of directly mitigating

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Speaker 1: stalking suspects from killing women that they're threatening to kill

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Speaker 1: every single time that suspect had information that the victim

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Speaker 1: did not think that they had and as a matter

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Speaker 1: of fact, swore that they didn't have access to but

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Speaker 1: they did. Right. That's how journalists track people all the time,

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Speaker 1: as looking through the friends, you know, That's how I

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Speaker 1: do it, looking through friends and comments on Facebook and

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Speaker 1: all social media. I mean, people don't think that that's

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Speaker 1: you can act actually trace a whole life through that,

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Speaker 1: and I end up doing that every day. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: you're hearing the voice of the vestigative reporter from the

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Speaker 1: New York Post Isabel Vincent, and she's absolutely right. I

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Speaker 1: want to get back to who are the victims in

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Speaker 1: this case? Take another Listen to Dave matt from crime

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Speaker 1: online dot Com. Sadegi's chat room on Clubhouse opened her

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Speaker 1: life to many new contacts. One of those was Trucker

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Speaker 1: Ramine Codor ram Razahi. He began taking part in the

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Speaker 1: online chat room in late twenty twenty one. The truckers

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Speaker 1: started emailing Sadegi and messaging her to talk about the podcast.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't long until the new friendship took a bad turn.

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Speaker 1: Todor ram Razahi escalated his contact to the point where

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Speaker 1: Sadegi became uncomfortable with the content of the messages and

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Speaker 1: how often. Once he reportedly called Sadegi over one hundred

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Speaker 1: times in a single day. Sadegi tried to cut off contact.

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Speaker 1: She blocked him on WhatsApp, Telegram, Instagram, and on her

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Speaker 1: phone Calls application, but he began to start contacting Nazari.

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Speaker 1: There are also reports that he would show up at

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Speaker 1: the couple's home unannounced with gifts. Sadeggi filed for a

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Speaker 1: restraining order. Karen starts psychologists joining us out of Manhattan. Karen,

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Speaker 1: when you, for instance, like she did, blocked him on asta, Facebook, Twitter,

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Speaker 1: does that enrage the person or does that help? Well?

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Speaker 1: And then you want to do it, but it does

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Speaker 1: enrage the person because he already is feeling rejected. He

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Speaker 1: decided that he had a close relationship with her and

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Speaker 1: so in their friendship, all of a sudden she's rejecting him.

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Speaker 1: And look at this Nancy. He's able to get in

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Speaker 1: touch with her husband who is and making an attempt

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Speaker 1: to be kind to this guy and explain that she's

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Speaker 1: allowed to reject him. But he's turned this into he's

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Speaker 1: in love with her and she does not want him?

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Speaker 1: And what did he do wrong? Okay, only go to

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Speaker 1: Isabel Vincent. What is clubhouse? What is that clubhouse? It's

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Speaker 1: like an online chat room where people get together and exchange,

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Speaker 1: you know, all sorts of information. So this is a

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Speaker 1: form of a chat room. And can I tell you something.

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Speaker 1: I'm all for chat rooms. I was in a chat

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Speaker 1: room when I had the twins and I was trying

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Speaker 1: to find out tips for how to feed them, how

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Speaker 1: to get them on the same sleeping schedule. It was very,

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Speaker 1: very helpful and to make some actually lifelong friends in there.

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Speaker 1: But it's very Matthew Mangino, former prosecutor and author of

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Speaker 1: The Executioner's Toll. Listen to this the crimes, arrest, Trials, Appeals,

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Speaker 1: and Last Meals and final Words of forty six people

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Speaker 1: in the US. I read it just because I wanted

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Speaker 1: to find out about the last meals that said. I

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Speaker 1: didn't listen to the last words, man, Gina, because I neither.

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Speaker 1: Probably all lies anyway, like I didn't do it that

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Speaker 1: kind of thing. I mean, Gino, these chat rooms. While

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Speaker 1: I have been in chat rooms and asleep before, I

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Speaker 1: have had so many cases linked back to chat rooms, Jackie.

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Speaker 1: Can't we even count, just off the top of our heads,

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Speaker 1: how many people were identified and stop through chat rooms.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, No, especially young girls. But because those

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Speaker 1: are the ones we typically cover because they're so easy

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Speaker 1: to victimize. But Matthew, chat rooms they're like the devil spawn. Well, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's there's no question that there are predators

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Speaker 1: in chats, people who are trying to uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: make some connection with people because they have some uh

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Speaker 1: you know, criminal intent they have some idea that they

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Speaker 1: that they want to take advantage of, whether it's young

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Speaker 1: people or vulnerable people or just generally people who are

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Speaker 1: on the internet. But but you know, the thing that

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Speaker 1: concerns me is, certainly you need to be careful. But um,

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Speaker 1: you know, just because someone has a digital footprint, just

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Speaker 1: because somebody has their name out there and is in

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Speaker 1: a chat room, you know, overseeing some conversation or has

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Speaker 1: a podcast in which they express certain views, doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: that that person necessarily, you know, should be fearful that

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Speaker 1: they're going that there's some predator out there who's going

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Speaker 1: to come after them, or that they shouldn't have that

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Speaker 1: digital footprint, they shouldn't be involved on the internet because

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Speaker 1: they could become a VIC. But you know what, you

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Speaker 1: know what, Matthew Mangino, you are reminding me of something

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Speaker 1: my husband does, and now my son's doing it. I

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Speaker 1: immediately called him on it. For instance, I'll say, could

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Speaker 1: you speed up? You're joving like a grandma. Okay, you're

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Speaker 1: going nineteen miles an hour. I can see that on

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Speaker 1: my ways. Speed up And he goes, well, do you

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Speaker 1: want me to run those people down in the crosswalk?

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Speaker 1: Isn't there a happy medium? Can you go faster than

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Speaker 1: nineteen miles an hour and not run over the people

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Speaker 1: on this side and this crosswalk? So Paul Zy with

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Speaker 1: me former police commander Albuquerque star of their domestic violences

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Speaker 1: stalking unit and order of stop him from killing them?

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Speaker 1: You can find them at stop Him from Killing Them

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Speaker 1: dot Com. Paul Zike, there's got to be a happy

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Speaker 1: medium when you're in a chat ring, you know there

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Speaker 1: there is. And the thing I have to disagree with

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Speaker 1: Matthew is that you know, you have to realize what

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Speaker 1: society is and who's out there. Yeah, I heard him

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Speaker 1: say that, Paul Zie, you shouldn't be afraid of everybody

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Speaker 1: to chat ram. Why not go ahead? I'm telling you

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Speaker 1: right now that you know what's happened with the Internet

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Speaker 1: and social media and you name it is connected everyone

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Speaker 1: to everyone, and not everyone is of sound mind, not

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Speaker 1: everyone you know, has even common sense. And in this case,

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Speaker 1: the obsession, the unbelievable, relenting obsession in some of the

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Speaker 1: statements that were made directly to the husband were extreme

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Speaker 1: red flags and you got to be ready for that

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Speaker 1: if you're going to put yourself out there. Time stories

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. I want to go to Lee Newbecker,

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Speaker 1: President Enigma Forensics. Lee, as all of my co workers,

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Speaker 1: friends and family know, the after one phone call. On

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Speaker 1: the second call, I'm like, what did you not tell

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Speaker 1: me the first time? What? Don't look at me like that, Jackie,

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Speaker 1: Because by the second phone call, I'm like what because

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Speaker 1: I assume there's but this woman's getting hundreds and hundreds

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Speaker 1: a brage of calls and emails and texts every day. Amazing.

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Speaker 1: Now I was looking for a little more from you,

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Speaker 1: like how to not let that happen? Yeah, well, certainly,

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Speaker 1: Like like I recommended all your staff they should be

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Speaker 1: using buffer phone numbers when they're calling your prospective guests

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Speaker 1: on the phone. Because oh, and you know what, I'm

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Speaker 1: glad you said that buffer phone. There's actually an app

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Speaker 1: is they're not leaning Backer, where you can keep your

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Speaker 1: same phone. You don't have to run out and get

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Speaker 1: a burner phone, but you can have another phone number

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Speaker 1: on your phone and use that for people you don't

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Speaker 1: want to have your phone number and your regular phone

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Speaker 1: number for everybody else. Isn't that true? Yeah? Yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: an app called Burner that's available on both the iPhone

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Speaker 1: and the Android phone platform. That's the name of the

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Speaker 1: app Burner, and it's a subscription of a year. But

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you'll want to pay for that twenty dollars

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Speaker 1: or so for the app for your steps, just to

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Speaker 1: protect them because that number, when you look it up

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Speaker 1: the Burner numbers, I can't find anything off the Burner phone.

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Speaker 1: But once you use your real cell phone, then people

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Speaker 1: can servail you. And you don't want people knowing who

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Speaker 1: your kids are. And I mean, Nancy, you're a high

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Speaker 1: a file person. If someone wants to stop you, they're

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Speaker 1: going to stop your family. You know, your family has

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Speaker 1: to be careful too with their online footprint using pseudo

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Speaker 1: names for Facebook. You know, if you're going to use

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Speaker 1: your real cell phone number on Facebook, just know that

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Speaker 1: if anyone gets a number, they can quickly they can

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Speaker 1: see more data about you because Facebook assumes that they're

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Speaker 1: trusted if they have your phone number in their contact let. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that's what Isabel Vincent was just telling us. Author

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Speaker 1: an investigative reporter in New York Posts that's actually finds

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Speaker 1: people when they don't want to be found. How she

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Speaker 1: finds out about them. Doctor Jeffrey Jenson and joining me.

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Speaker 1: Professor Forensic Pathology, Director of Autopsy and Forensic Services, University

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Speaker 1: of Michigan Medical School and medical former medical examiner, Milwaukee County, Wisconsin.

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Speaker 1: Doctor jess Let's bring it all home. We're talking about

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Speaker 1: meeting people in chat rooms and hiding your phone numbers.

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Speaker 1: How did these two victims die? Well, it sounds like

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Speaker 1: it was a gunshot. Wounds that were that were inflicted.

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Speaker 1: Even it sounds like the the the husband was seen

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Speaker 1: in front of the house. And I guess my question

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Speaker 1: is is where is law enforcement during this period of

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Speaker 1: time where this poor woman's being stalked? I can answer that,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Jeffrey Jenson. Romaming to circle back to Jensen on

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Speaker 1: the cod cause of death and what they endured. Let's

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Speaker 1: answer doctor Jeffrey Jensen's very astute question. Take a listen

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Speaker 1: now to Kanya Whitworth, GMA. Police say that Romine could

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Speaker 1: a ram Razahi met Zori Sadegi under false pretenses on

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Speaker 1: the popular streaming for him Clubhouse. Sadegi initially befriending the

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Speaker 1: suspect thinking he was looking for a tech job, even

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Speaker 1: meeting him in person, but eventually he became fixated. His

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Speaker 1: actions and activity escalated such that the victim became concerned

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Speaker 1: for her safety numerous times throughout twenty twenty two. By

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Speaker 1: December she reported him to police, and earlier this month

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Speaker 1: she applied for a protection order. Oh my goodness, thanking

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Speaker 1: she was helping him pursue a tech job. They mate

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Speaker 1: in this chat ram on Clubhouse. She actually met him

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Speaker 1: for lunch to launch her coffee to talk to him

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Speaker 1: at his request about finding a job in the tech world.

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Speaker 1: Now take a listen to our friends at k I

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Speaker 1: R seven. The suspect had been stalking Zoe Rae for

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Speaker 1: more than a year, so as I understand it. In

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Speaker 1: one of the reports, she reported over one hundred contacts

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Speaker 1: in a single day. Zoe Ray is a software engineer

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Speaker 1: who ran a live podcast style chat account on the

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Speaker 1: platform Clubhouse. Police say that's where the suspect, who is

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Speaker 1: from Texas, met her and developed into a stalking situation

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Speaker 1: that rapidly escalated. The couple got a protection order against

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Speaker 1: the suspect, thirty eight year old Ramine To karam Rosari.

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Speaker 1: Court documents show pages and pages of instances of the

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Speaker 1: suspect contacting Zore and her family and friends, even coming

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Speaker 1: to their home there were instances where the individual did

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Speaker 1: show up at the location previously bearing gifts. How far

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Speaker 1: did he have to travel to Isabel Vincent INVSTI get

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Speaker 1: a reporter New York Post and author How far did

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Speaker 1: he have to travel to get to her? Well, he

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Speaker 1: was living in Houston and so so quite far. And

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Speaker 1: one of the things that hasn't been mentioned is that

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Speaker 1: that order of protection was not served on him because

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Speaker 1: the police said that, well, he's a trumper. It's hard

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Speaker 1: to pin him down. So that was one of the

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Speaker 1: problems in this case. And when you are you get

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Speaker 1: a protective order PO TPO in one state. Here they

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Speaker 1: are in Redmond and he is in Texas. You have

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Speaker 1: to get cooperation of Texas authorities or wherever the suspect

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Speaker 1: is living. And for them, unless they know any better,

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Speaker 1: it's not a priority Lee and it's total be us.

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Speaker 1: They can't find a trucker, they all have all come trackers.

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Speaker 1: All law enforcement he has to do is go to

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Speaker 1: their employer and seeing where the imperiod exactly. It's just

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Speaker 1: that simple. But from state to state, for instance, a

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Speaker 1: Redman needed to communicate to Houston how important this was,

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Speaker 1: and then they needed help because hey, look, cobs are

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Speaker 1: trying to track down murderers and rapists and child moles

425
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 1: molesters and armed robberies, and they get to notice, how

426
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: here's a TPO find the guy and serve him. That's

427
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: like way out on the list, who's jumping in go ahead?

428
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: One thing? Also his background, I mean I get a

429
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 1: quick background track to him and his former way a

430
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 1: woman named Neda misbahi Um. She stued him for divorce

431
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 1: in January twenty eighteen. There were children in I wonder why,

432
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: and there were allegations of domestic abuse. So here's like

433
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 1: a profile that you know, maybe the police didn't take seriously.

434
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: I don't know. Hey, Karen Starr, you know who this

435
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 1: is reminding me of. I know you're going to remember

436
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 1: this woman Lisa no Act, the astronaut, the female astronaut.

437
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 1: So she has an affair with her love object who

438
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 1: actually had later gets a girlfriend. She travels all the

439
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 1: way across the country wearing adult diapers so she doesn't

440
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,719
Speaker 1: have to slow down. Her name is foreverlink with adult diapers,

441
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 1: so she can't attack the girlfriend like her love I'm

442
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 1: just gonna go, oh, well she's dead now I'll be

443
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,120
Speaker 1: with you it didn't work out that way at all.

444
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: But someone so obsessed they're willing to drive thousands of

445
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,640
Speaker 1: miles to get to you. Go hey, Karen start Well,

446
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 1: it's not logical, manthing, because they're not thinking sanely the

447
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 1: way that they would be. They're actually believing that there's

448
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 1: more happening, that there's more closeness and intimacy than actually exists.

449
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: And unfortunately in this case, no one took it seriously enough.

450
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: Well wait a minute, they did go to court to

451
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:25,120
Speaker 1: get that protection order, and that takes them doing Yet

452
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: then it wasn't delivered. Guys. Listen to dd Son, the

453
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 1: victim shares her fears, saying messages to me have been

454
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 1: the cause of anxiety and insomnia for me. They include

455
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: him crying and begging for me to pick up him,

456
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: threatening to burn himself, and the tree in front of

457
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 1: my house. She also says, mister Koto Karamasari has bursts

458
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 1: of anger and is completely delusional. These illusions make me

459
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: fear for my life and the lives of my loved ones,

460
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: and there's more. Listen to Gma the order, detailing a

461
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: pattern of disturbing behavior, including calling Sadegi a hundred times

462
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: in a single day, crying and begging to speak to her,

463
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: showing up unannounced at a convention she attended in Colorado,

464
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 1: even threatening to burn himself and the tree in front

465
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 1: of Sadegi's house. The software developer calling the alleged stoker delusional,

466
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 1: writing he won't let me go, and the only thing

467
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 1: that will make all of this stop is if he

468
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 1: killed himself or died. Now on our friend, Frank Thompson

469
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 1: describes voicemails left, even hiring a jazz band to play

470
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 1: outside the victims home. Listen. The petition for a protection

471
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 1: order filed on March third, says Romine would leave the

472
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 1: woman voicemails more than ten times a week, sending gifts

473
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: and flowers to her home, even saying he hired a

474
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 1: jazz band to play outside her house for two hours

475
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: but then called it off. The documents said the suspect

476
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 1: would also leave her husband twenty messages a day. He

477
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: even found her friend's addresses and phone numbers without their permission.

478
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 1: You know what, everybody on this panel is correct. This

479
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: was of the highest priority, but according to authorities, they

480
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 1: couldn't quote pin him down. Take a listen to Fox

481
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: thirteen Chief Low says, it was challenging serving the order

482
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 1: to Romine because he was a long haul truck driver,

483
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 1: always traveling the country for work. It was difficult to

484
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: i'll say, pin him down to a location. It wasn't

485
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 1: as though he was local and we had a local

486
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: address to where we could either do surveillance or find him,

487
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: serve the protective order, et cetera. He was in a

488
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: different state, traveled across the country as part of his employment,

489
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 1: so that was the biggest challenge. Prime Stories with Nancy

490
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: Grace chief Low says, it was challenging serving the order

491
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: to who I mean, because he was a long haul

492
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 1: truck driver, always traveling the country for work. It was

493
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: difficult to i'll say, paying him down to a location.

494
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: It wasn't as though he was local and we had

495
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: a local address to where we could either do surveillance

496
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: or find him, serve the etc. He was in a

497
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: different state, traveled across the country as part of his employment,

498
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: so that was the biggest challenge. I believe our someone

499
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: say bass which I agree, was that, Yeah, this is

500
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: Lee Newt from Forensics and I want to comment on something.

501
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: We live in one of the most surveiled environments better.

502
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 1: You boot your laptop to take the picture of your face.

503
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 1: It does better facial recognition. There's the ability out there,

504
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: the n and stay could find it. Why aren't we

505
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 1: using the means here? If we're going to be surveiled,

506
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: let's at least stop the crying. Is this Paul or Matthew?

507
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 1: It's Faul, go ahead. So this is why I wrote

508
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 1: the book. You know, law enforcement is reactionary at its

509
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: very core. You call, we come, we fixed, we leave.

510
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 1: The reality is stalking offenders. They fit into a category

511
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 1: of very violent individuals that we don't understand. One this

512
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 1: happened over a full year. Two it started consensually. Three

513
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 1: it started to ratchet into an area of obsession, focused

514
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: aggression and threats to kill. Now, you threatened to kill

515
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 1: himself first, and so that's the only way it would stop.

516
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 1: When you start hearing threats to kill. And it's in

517
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 1: and around stalking cases. There's been many studies that say

518
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: ninety percent of the time when a woman is murdered,

519
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 1: it's the man who's stalking her. And I wrote the

520
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: book to help cops, prosecutors, judges and everyone understand these

521
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: people mean what they say. Doctor Jeffrey Jenson with me

522
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 1: autopsy and forensic expert, Doctor Jensen, I know that you

523
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 1: have conducted many, many thousands of autopsies, and typically homicide

524
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: victims are women, minorities, and children. Many of the women,

525
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: I would say, the vast majority of women are killed

526
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 1: by someone already in their lives. It's not like an

527
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: attack or ambushes them on the sidewalk. Yes, that does happen.

528
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: The typical domestic killing is the person close to the individual.

529
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: Many times there's um what I would describe as overkill,

530
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: some demonstration of you know, facial and head trauma that

531
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: the individuals are actually trying to trying to destroy the image.

532
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: I guess that being said, what kind and with all

533
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 1: the threats, what kind of of actions did this family

534
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 1: take to protect themselves? Well, another great question by doctor

535
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Jensen. Take listen, I are cut ten. The police

536
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: chief says they were trying to track down the suspect

537
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 1: to serve ast warrant and that protection order. Today, this

538
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: vehicle was towed from the neighborhood. Police believe it's what

539
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: the suspect was driving. Last this is the absolute worst outcome.

540
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 1: The suspect was a trucker, and police say that made

541
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 1: it difficult to pinpoint his location. The chief says the

542
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 1: detectives had been working with the couple to tighten security

543
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 1: at this home, like doing things like adding cameras, and

544
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,840
Speaker 1: say that they did everything right, trying to protect themselves

545
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 1: and more from Cairo. Listen, that suspect, we are told,

546
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 1: broken to the couple's home through a bedroom window. You

547
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,240
Speaker 1: can see this is still a very active scene crime

548
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 1: scene tape as well as police still here. That is

549
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: the home we were talking about. I'm told the victim's

550
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 1: mom managed to escape to a neighbor's house to call

551
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 1: nine one one, but police believe the couple was shot

552
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 1: by that suspect. This is victim every detective, every police

553
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 1: chief's worst nightmare. The murder victims are Redman residents, thirty

554
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 1: three year old Zobra Sadeghi and her husband, thirty five

555
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 1: year old Mohammed Mulada Nasari. It's shocking. It just seems unrea,

556
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 1: that's something like this good happening in our neighbor. Matthew

557
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 1: Mangino with me for more. Felony prosecutor now author, Matthew Mangino.

558
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 1: It seems to me the couple did everything right. Well,

559
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: they did what they needed to do, and that was

560
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: to seek a protective order. But you know, Nancy, there's

561
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 1: nothing magical about a protective order. You know, certainly it

562
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 1: gives the authorities some leverage if this suspect would come

563
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 1: around their home. But if you're if you're a crazed,

564
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: obsessed individual, you're going to defy that protective order, whether

565
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 1: you know it's there or you don't. And I'm really

566
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 1: concerned that was there enough done in terms of law

567
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:49,399
Speaker 1: enforcement getting an arrest warrant, getting that warned out where

568
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,720
Speaker 1: authorities in other states, whether it's Texas where he resided,

569
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,760
Speaker 1: or other places, are looking for him as someone who's

570
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 1: been charged with the crime. Active orders a civil order,

571
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: certainly it's a great concern, but it doesn't have the

572
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: same effect necessarily on law enforcement as an active warrant

573
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 1: for somebody's arrest. Well, I'm curious why he wasn't charged

574
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 1: with stalking, the felony of stalking. Isabel Vincent joining me

575
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 1: from the New York Post and you can read her book,

576
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: Overture of Hope. Isabel. I'm curious why he wasn't charged

577
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 1: with the felony of stalking with a grand jury. That

578
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 1: takes about literally five minutes, and then there would have

579
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 1: been a warrant for his arrest. And we know what

580
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 1: vehicle is driving. You know, I can't answer that, but

581
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 1: you know, if you read her, you know, if you

582
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 1: read some of the things today he said. And again

583
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: I stress that she's much more of a vulnerable victim

584
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 1: here because she's recovering from back surgery. She can barely move.

585
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 1: And she says at one point, I haven't been able

586
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,919
Speaker 1: to open the curtains in my bedroom out of fear

587
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 1: of him being side watching me. I mean, how much

588
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 1: more do you need than not, um, you know, for

589
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: the for the police to take more action. We should

590
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 1: have been paying that phone, Nancy, and knowing where he

591
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,800
Speaker 1: is from the pings on his cell phone. In addition

592
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 1: to that, something you see systemically throughout the nation, we're

593
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 1: not doing surveillance like we need to be. If you're

594
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 1: not in front of that house, is that red truck

595
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 1: pulls up to do what he's going to do, You're

596
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:30,839
Speaker 1: you're out of the game. And surveillance on the home

597
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: would certainly have had the best opportunity to stop this individual,

598
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: and the ping would give you an idea when he

599
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 1: was starting to close distance, we didn't do it. You know,

600
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:45,240
Speaker 1: I read that quote he threatened to end her marriage,

601
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 1: isabel Vincent. I assume that is to suspect threatened to

602
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 1: end the victim's marriage. Yes, and he actually he said

603
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,320
Speaker 1: to her, you know, I'm you know, i am My

604
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: other marriage ended because of domestic abuse. I'm a violent person,

605
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 1: like he told her all of these things. U And

606
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 1: you know again, where was the where was the alarm

607
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,319
Speaker 1: on the part of the authorities. And maybe one one

608
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: of the other things they could have done is hired

609
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 1: private security. I don't know, I'm just putting it out there,

610
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: Doctor Jeffrey Jenson. What did these victims experience as they died.

611
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 1: You've heard Isabelle describing uh, the female victim, Zori's back surgery,

612
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 1: she could totally even move when she was murdered. Well,

613
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 1: I would imagine there was just a feeling of total

614
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 1: um surrender, panic and just a impending horror of their

615
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 1: impending deaths and um, you know, without personal protection or

616
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 1: some other knowledge that there was help on the way,

617
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 1: they would have just had a total feeling of loss

618
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 1: and the inability to protect themselves. The thought that this

619
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: could have been stopped if a formal stalking felony had

620
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 1: been lodged against him, and then he would have been

621
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:21,439
Speaker 1: out on a warrant, not a TPO temporary protective order

622
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 1: could have, would have should have. There's nothing we can

623
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 1: do now. The victims are dead. He's dead, took his

624
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 1: own life, so there will be no justice. All we

625
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 1: can do is think about how we can protect other

626
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:44,399
Speaker 1: people from this happening to them. Nancy Grace Kind story

627
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 1: signing off Goodbye, f