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Speaker 1: On the evening of September thirteenth, nineteen eighty three, beauty

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Speaker 1: school owner Delbert Baker, known to his friends and customers

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Speaker 1: as mister Dell, was found dead in the back room

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Speaker 1: of his school in Auburndale, Florida. He had been shot,

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Speaker 1: his throat was slashed, and the place was covered in blood.

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Speaker 1: Witnesses gave police the names of a couple of locals

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Speaker 1: whom they had seen with mister Dell that evening, but

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Speaker 1: the case eventually went cold. A few months later, a

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Speaker 1: man named David Luna Falcon told police that an acquaintance,

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Speaker 1: Juan Melendez, had allegedly bragged about committing the murder with

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Speaker 1: two accomplices. One of them, a man named John Berrion,

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Speaker 1: admitted to police that he had been the accessory after

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Speaker 1: the fact, giving him the vantage point to name the

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Speaker 1: other accomplice and Juan Melendez as well. Law enforcement caught

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Speaker 1: up with Juan in Pennsylvania, extradited him to Florida, and

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Speaker 1: charged him with first degree murder. At trial, David Falcon

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Speaker 1: and John Berrion testified that Juan shot mister Dell and

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Speaker 1: stole a watch, a gold bracelet, four diamond rings, and

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Speaker 1: fifty dollars in cash before fleeing the scene. When one

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Speaker 1: of the original suspects who had been seen with mister

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Speaker 1: Dell that night was called by the defense at trial,

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Speaker 1: he invoked his Fifth Amendment rights not to testify. Clearly

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Speaker 1: he had nothing important to add. But this is wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to wrongful conviction. I'm Gilbert King and I'm

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Speaker 1: filling in for Jason Flahm, and today we have a

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Speaker 1: case out of Polk County, Florida, where I've spent so

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Speaker 1: much time doing research for the last like four or

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Speaker 1: five years, researching other cases, and so I'm very familiar

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Speaker 1: with that prosecutor's office as well as some of the

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Speaker 1: judges in that area. And these are the very same

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Speaker 1: folks that sent Juan Melendez to death row. They kept

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Speaker 1: them there for over seventeen years. So this is in

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Speaker 1: a state. You know, Florida, for the last one hundred

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Speaker 1: and two executions, has exonerated thirty people from death row.

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Speaker 1: So you just doing the math on that Florida has

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Speaker 1: admitted to condemning one innocent person at least every fifth

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Speaker 1: time that they seek the death penalty. And you know,

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Speaker 1: we're just so glad that our guest today survived and

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Speaker 1: he's here with us now. Juan Melendez, welcome one.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Jan thanks so much for joining me today. I really

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Speaker 1: really appreciate it. And joining us is also Juan's habeas attorney,

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Speaker 1: who at the time was with Florida's Office of the

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Speaker 1: Capitol Collateral Representative and she eventually went on to private

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Speaker 1: practice and she co founded the National Habeas Institute. Linda McDermott, Linda,

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Speaker 1: welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: Now. I became familiar with Polk County when I was

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Speaker 1: digging into a really troubling case for my podcast Bone Valley.

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Speaker 1: This is the story where myself and co host Kelsey

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Speaker 1: Decker and I we covered the wrongful conviction of Leo Schofield,

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Speaker 1: and you know, we continue obviously to hope for justice there.

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Speaker 1: Leo's prosecutor, John Aguero rose up in the ranks with

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Speaker 1: Wan's prosecutor Hardy Pickard. And by the end of this interview,

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Speaker 1: I think that our audience is going to get a

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Speaker 1: glimpse of what I've seen. But before we get to that,

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Speaker 1: you know, one, can you just tell us about your

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Speaker 1: life before you ever even knew who Hardy Pickard was.

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Speaker 2: I'm born in Brooklyn, New York, but I was facing

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Speaker 2: the island of Puerto Rico. It took back when I

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Speaker 2: was just a little kid. But when I went to

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Speaker 2: it to Florida. I went in nineteen seventy, it's still segreation,

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Speaker 2: blacks in one side, white in another side. And I

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Speaker 2: had the biggest outfro in town. So you know where

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Speaker 2: they're gonna put me in the black side. And I

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Speaker 2: loved it. I love every bitder of it, so I

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Speaker 2: was happy. My work was mostly picking fruit, the gray fruits,

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Speaker 2: the tanierines, the orange, all citral fruit. So that's what

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Speaker 2: I used to do, mostly pick fruit. Migrate from Florida

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Speaker 2: to the state of Pennsylvania and do some more, get

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Speaker 2: the apples and the beaches and stuff.

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Speaker 1: Now what the victim in this case Delbert Baker. He

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Speaker 1: was known to many of his customers and friends as

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Speaker 1: mister Dell. He owned a cosmetology school in Auburndale, Florida,

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Speaker 1: which is right in Paul County. What have you ever

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Speaker 1: been to Auburndale? Ever ever run into Dell? I mean

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Speaker 1: maybe wenting there for a haircut or something.

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Speaker 2: First of all, I had to tell you, I've never

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Speaker 2: been in a Cote mestology school, you know where their

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Speaker 2: fitst hair and all that stuff, and been in one

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Speaker 2: of them. I've seen them in TV. I've been in

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Speaker 2: in Abunda, in the little town where that crime happened.

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Speaker 2: Like I told you, picking foot, that's it. Never know

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Speaker 2: that man was Knittin and heal who he.

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Speaker 1: Was, and mister Dell. He had been brutally attacked on

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Speaker 1: the evening of September thirteenth, nineteen eighty three. He was

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Speaker 1: discovered in the back room of his hair salon by

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Speaker 1: his own sister. His throat had been slashed, he'd been shot.

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Speaker 1: Blood obviously was everywhere. Linda, what do we know about

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Speaker 1: the initial investigation? Were there any leads or any obvious

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Speaker 1: motivations into this crime.

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Speaker 3: The investigation started that next day and it appeared the

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Speaker 3: motivation may be a robbery because jewelry was missing, money

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Speaker 3: was missing from his workplace. It was unclear if there

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Speaker 3: was a motive beyond the robbery, and there were quickly

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Speaker 3: some leads.

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Speaker 1: Now from what I've read, one of those leads was

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Speaker 1: a man named Vernon James.

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Speaker 3: That right, there was an individual named Terry Barber, who

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Speaker 3: had told law enforcement he had seen Vernon James with

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Speaker 3: another man named Harold Lamb at mister Dell's place of

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Speaker 3: business on the evening of the crime. However, according to

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Speaker 3: law enforcement, they checked with Harold Landrum's employer and he

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Speaker 3: had an alibi for that evening, so the James and

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Speaker 3: Landrum lead didn't get pursued.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what strikes me funny about that is this You

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Speaker 1: mentioned Landrum's alibi, but not one for Vernon James. And

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Speaker 1: we've seen even like rock solid alibis get completely ignored

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Speaker 1: by police and prosecutors. Well, let's take wand for instance.

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Speaker 2: I had an alibi and I had three people, Corribo,

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Speaker 2: Raven the alibi. All I know that Bena James was

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Speaker 2: a police informer. I think Landrow was two.

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Speaker 1: So potentially these were both police informants. We know that

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Speaker 1: Vernon James was for sure. And then the police ignored

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Speaker 1: your alibi, but not Landrums, whose alibi was apparently strong

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Speaker 1: enough to cover for Vernon James as well. And then

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Speaker 1: the case went cold allegedly until five thousand dollars was

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Speaker 1: offered for information. And this is five thousand dollars in

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty four, you know, February nineteen eighty four to

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Speaker 1: be exact. Just like that, the police received a tip.

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Speaker 3: One individual came forward and his name was David Luna Falcon,

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Speaker 3: and he said that in January of nineteen eighty four,

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Speaker 3: he and mister Melendez had been you know, drinking and

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Speaker 3: enjoying themselves in a nightclub, and mister Melendez had been

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Speaker 3: very you know, specific detail told mister Falcon what had

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Speaker 3: happened that night. Falcon had said that someone had taken

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Speaker 3: mister Melendez and another individual to the hair salon, and

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Speaker 3: he mentioned the name John in his original statement to police,

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Speaker 3: but he didn't have any particular names, and that mister

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Speaker 3: Melendez and another individual went to mister Dell's and robbed him.

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Speaker 1: And from crime scene photos we know that whoever actually

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Speaker 1: did this had slashed Delbert Baker's throat and shot him

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Speaker 1: in the head. And although Falcon was not clear about

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Speaker 1: who was wielding the knife, he alleged that Wan had

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Speaker 1: claimed to have pulled the trigger.

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Speaker 3: And there was this odd detail in his testimony that

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Speaker 3: before mister Melendez allegedly shot mister Baker, mister Baker had

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Speaker 3: started throwing blood at mister Melendez and this other unknown

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Speaker 3: person and begging, begging mister Melendez to take him to

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Speaker 3: the hospital. And at that point, allegedly mister Melendez said

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Speaker 3: that he shot mister Baker.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: And now Linda Wan wasn't even a suspect until he

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Speaker 1: came forward, Is that correct? Correct?

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Speaker 3: I mean, there was no evidence linking Wan at all

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Speaker 3: to this crime.

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Speaker 1: Now, Wan, did you know this David Luna Falcon gentleman.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I did I know him. I know he was

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Speaker 2: a paid police informan. I know it was some kind

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Speaker 2: of guns against me and him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I read. In addition to receiving five

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars, it was known that David Falcon did not

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Speaker 1: like you. In fact, several witnesses they later testified a

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Speaker 1: trial that they had overheard Falcons say that he would

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Speaker 1: quote get you. But at this point the police, I guess,

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Speaker 1: looked you up and they must have seen that you

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Speaker 1: had an armed robbery charge on your record.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not gonna lie to you. I had a

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Speaker 2: prior rikle.

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Speaker 1: And even though that had nothing to do with what

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Speaker 1: happened to mister Dell, it's really not out of the

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Speaker 1: ordinary for that a criminal record can act as a

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Speaker 1: motivator for police to focus on someone. But what about

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Speaker 1: these two other men, the alleged accomplices. Falcon had only

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Speaker 1: said the name John, and then a friend of yours

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Speaker 1: named John Berryon was arrested. So other than his friendship

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Speaker 1: with you, there doesn't appear to be anything else that

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Speaker 1: led them to this particular John now Linda in Florida

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Speaker 1: with felony murder. The threat of the death penalty was

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Speaker 1: looming over John Berrion, and he agreed to implicate one

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Speaker 1: as well as his cousin, George Barrion. But to even

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Speaker 1: have this alleged firsthand knowledge, he had to implicate himself

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Speaker 1: to some degree.

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Speaker 3: He implicates himself to the extent that he says he

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Speaker 3: drove George barrion friend mister Melendez to the studio, but

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Speaker 3: he also says I didn't know anything that was going

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Speaker 3: to happen. And so John Barron is originally charged with

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Speaker 3: first degree murder and ultimately agrees to testify against Juan

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Speaker 3: in exchange for a nolo contendre plea to accessory after

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Speaker 3: the fact, which would immediately allow him to be released

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Speaker 3: from jail and to have served any sentence that he

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Speaker 3: would have with that particular charge.

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Speaker 1: So John Baryon escaped the electric chair in exchange for

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Speaker 1: a story in which he was an accessory after the fact.

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Speaker 1: Now Falcon had said mister Dell had allegedly thrown blood

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Speaker 1: at Wan in his accomplice, but that didn't match up

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Speaker 1: with John Berrion's story.

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Speaker 3: It certainly didn't match up in that John Barrion said

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Speaker 3: that mister Melendez and George Baron left the hair salon

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Speaker 3: without any blood on them. You know, there was nothing

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Speaker 3: unusual about them other than he started suggesting that they

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Speaker 3: had some jewelry and things that could have been obtained

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Speaker 3: during this robbery. And then he goes on to tell

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Speaker 3: another piece of the story where he says the next

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Speaker 3: day or two days later, he gives George Barrion a

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Speaker 3: ride to the train station, mister Melendez is again with them,

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Speaker 3: and at that point he sees mister Melendez give George

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Speaker 3: Barrion a watch and some rings and tell him to

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Speaker 3: take them to Delaware and to pawn those and obtain

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Speaker 3: money for them. And the law enforcement did find out

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Speaker 3: that mister Barry and George Barrion did in fact purchase

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Speaker 3: a ticket to go to Delaware within a day or

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Speaker 3: two after the Baker homicide. So John Baryon's story did

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Speaker 3: have some pieces that the law enforcement believed could corroborate

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Speaker 3: what he was saying.

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Speaker 1: It actually only corroborated that George Barrion's children lived in Wilmington, Delaware.

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Speaker 1: Now George Barrion he later testified that he'd only met

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Speaker 1: Wan once at John Berrion's house and denied any involvement

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Speaker 1: in mister Dell's murder or this alleged train station jewelry handoff.

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Speaker 1: And ultimately George Barrion was never charged with anything, but

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Speaker 1: the police continued with these two conflicting statements from Falcon

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Speaker 1: and John Barrion that did match up on the one

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Speaker 1: detail that they needed that Wan was involved. And so

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Speaker 1: they found out that you were in Pennsylvania working in

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Speaker 1: the fruit orchards, which was misconstrued as fleeing. Had you

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Speaker 1: like ever heard that this you know, murder had even taken.

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Speaker 2: Place, never heard about, So you were completely.

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Speaker 1: Unaware that you were a suspect, you know, let alone

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Speaker 1: about to be arrested.

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Speaker 2: And I never forget this day made a second nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty four, why we was working it was by a

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Speaker 2: police card and they stopped in front of us and

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Speaker 2: they told us to hit put a weapon on us.

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Speaker 2: Then they ordered me to get up. Then they said

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Speaker 2: you are on the arrest for first degree murder and

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Speaker 2: i'm robbery in the state of Florida.

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Speaker 1: You were then extradited back to Florida. And at the

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Speaker 1: time I understand you could not even speak that much English.

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Speaker 2: The true is I know at that time, if I

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Speaker 2: say five words in English, believe in my friends, three

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Speaker 2: of them would because words. So they brought interpreted to

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Speaker 2: explain to me what es tradition mean. And all he

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Speaker 2: told me in Spanish was you either wave it or

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Speaker 2: fight it. They can take you back anyway. I start thinking,

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Speaker 2: I'm not a killer. My mama did not raise no

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Speaker 2: kill us. I'm going to wave it. As soon they

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Speaker 2: see this ugly face in Florida, they will let me go.

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Speaker 2: But I was wrong. When I go back, they took

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Speaker 2: me in front of the George, and the George he

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Speaker 2: read the charges to me. He said, you being be

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Speaker 2: indicted for first degree murder and I'm bravri in the

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Speaker 2: state of Florida is sinking the death penalty against you.

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Speaker 2: The elected chair.

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Speaker 4: This episode is underwritten by global law firm Greenberg Trawig

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Speaker 4: through its pro bono program. Greenberg Trowig leverages its more

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Speaker 4: than twenty six hundred lawyers across forty four offices to

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Speaker 4: serve the greater good of our communities and provide equal

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Speaker 4: access to justice for all. In the field of criminal justice,

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Speaker 4: Greenberg Trowrig attorneys have exonerated and free demanded Philadelphia represent

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Speaker 4: numerous individuals previously sentenced to life for crimes committed as

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Speaker 4: juveniles and resentencing hearings, and receive the American Bar Association's

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty one Exceptional Service Award for Death Penalty Representation

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Speaker 4: for their work on five death penalty cases. GT is

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Speaker 4: reimagining what big law can be because of a more

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Speaker 4: just world. Only happens by design.

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Speaker 1: So, meanwhile, in that same month, from what I've read,

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Speaker 1: it appears that in order to ensure that your prosecution

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Speaker 1: went smoothly, the lead detective Gary Glisten, chose to go

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Speaker 1: to these extraordinary lengths to protect the initial informant in

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Speaker 1: this case, David Falcon, from himself from damaging his own credibility.

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Speaker 3: When Falcon committed a home invasion in I believe it

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Speaker 3: was in May of nineteen eighty four, Glisten went to

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Speaker 3: the victims of that home invasion and put pressure on

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Speaker 3: them not to prosecute. According to one of those victims,

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Speaker 3: the woman who had been at the house, she was

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Speaker 3: told that if we arrest Falcon, all that's going to

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Speaker 3: happen is he's going to make bail and he's going

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Speaker 3: to come back and he's going to harm you. And

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Speaker 3: so rather than protecting her, they were basically telling her

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Speaker 3: the only way she could protect herself was to waive

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Speaker 3: prosecution and then they would sort of tell Falcon to

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Speaker 3: back off.

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Speaker 1: Which seems, you know, completely antithetical to his duty as

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Speaker 1: a police officer. He chose to protect the credibility of

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Speaker 1: the state's dubious star witness, David Falcon instead of Falcons

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Speaker 1: victims both you know, past and future. So did Hardy Picker?

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Speaker 1: Did he know about this home invasion cover up?

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Speaker 3: His response to that was to tell Detective Glisson and

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Speaker 3: others to stop using Falcon for the time being as

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Speaker 3: your informant, because he didn't want to have any more

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Speaker 3: of these types of issues occur before the trial.

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Speaker 1: So he was willing to accept Falcons were you know

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Speaker 1: just this once though, so Wan's court, a pointed attorney

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Speaker 1: Roger Alcott did not have the benefit of this impeachment evidence.

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Speaker 1: And now there's just four months to prepare for a

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Speaker 1: death penalty trial.

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Speaker 3: Mister Alcott and his trial investigator, Cody Smith, they started

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Speaker 3: to follow up on some of the leads that law

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Speaker 3: enforcement didn't find fruitful when they were following up on things,

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Speaker 3: and mister Elcott sent his investigator to speak to Vernon James,

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Speaker 3: and ultimately mister Elcott lists mister James as a witness

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Speaker 3: for the defense, and he tells the state that mister

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Speaker 3: James is going to come in and say that he

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Speaker 3: committed the murderer or that he was there and that

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Speaker 3: mister Melendez was not there.

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Speaker 2: My attorney used to pat me in the back. You say, no,

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Speaker 2: what about it, mister Melendez? You going home and I

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Speaker 2: soon go home. I did not commit the crime.

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Speaker 1: You know, perhaps Pickard should have looked at this evidence,

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Speaker 1: the Vernon James interview, as well as the home invasion

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Speaker 1: cover up for star witness, and just let you go home.

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Speaker 1: But instead Falcon and James were free to commit more

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Speaker 1: crimes while Wand's prosecution went on as scheduled, and that happened.

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Speaker 1: In September nineteen eighty four, the state had what we

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Speaker 1: now know to be the false, incentivized or coerced testimonies

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Speaker 1: of David Luna Falcon and John Berrion. To recap this,

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Speaker 1: Falcon alleged that you had bragged that a man named

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Speaker 1: John dropped you and another man off at Delbert Baker's salon.

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Speaker 1: Baker's throat had been slashed. According to Falcon, mister Dell

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Speaker 1: got blood on you. He begged you for help, but

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Speaker 1: you shot him. Then John Berrion corroborated Falcon's allegation that

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Speaker 1: he had dropped you and his cousin, George Barrion at

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Speaker 1: the salon. But Barrion, you know, in contrast to Falcon,

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Speaker 1: when he picked you up, neither of you were covered

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Speaker 1: in blood. So your attorney pointed out that inconsistency, which

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Speaker 1: implies that at least you know, one of them was

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Speaker 1: lying or mistaken, and then all caught. Put George Brion

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Speaker 1: on the stand.

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Speaker 2: George Berry tessify. He said that I only met won once,

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Speaker 2: And Mike colsun Is said, Patolcolah, I know way he

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Speaker 2: lies all the time.

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Speaker 3: So mister Elcott had put together an alibi defense with

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Speaker 3: several witnesses, mister Melendez's girlfriend and her family, and they

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Speaker 3: had been together that evening. And then in addition to that, though,

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Speaker 3: mister Elcott had Vernon James to undermine the credibility of

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Speaker 3: John Barrion and David Luna Falcon Right.

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Speaker 1: But what happened when Vernon James is called to the stand.

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Speaker 3: He takes the fit amendment. And it's an interesting sort

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Speaker 3: of legal maneuver that the state makes because they tell

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Speaker 3: trial council just a few days before the trial that

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Speaker 3: Vernon James has made some statements that he committed the

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Speaker 3: crime to his cellmate named Roger Mims. And so at

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Speaker 3: that point they say, Vernon James needs to be advised

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Speaker 3: of his rights because there's this other individual pointing to

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Speaker 3: him as the person who committed the crime. So had

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Speaker 3: they not had Roger Mimms and mister Elcott just put

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Speaker 3: James on the stand, he could have extracted the information

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Speaker 3: that he wanted to extract without having this weird fitth

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Speaker 3: amendment issue be raised and James essentially being able to

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Speaker 3: absent himself from the trial and not have to confess

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Speaker 3: in front of the jury, and then sort of the

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Speaker 3: dominoes fall, because then after Mims testifies, the state undermines

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Speaker 3: his credibility by saying, oh, isn't this fortunate? You come

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Speaker 3: forward a week before the trial and suddenly you know,

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Speaker 3: this guy supposedly confesses to you.

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Speaker 1: But unlike so many other police or jailhouse informants, Roger

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Speaker 1: Mims wasn't testifying in exchange for anything. He said that

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Speaker 1: Vernon James had said that he and Delbert Baker were

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Speaker 1: lovers and had he was involved in his death. But

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Speaker 1: since James had pleaded the fifth and he was a

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Speaker 1: defense witness, Alcott could not offer the recordings or transcripts

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Speaker 1: of the conversations with Vernon James, so the jury only

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Speaker 1: heard this from Mims.

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Speaker 3: Clearly they were not finding mister Mims credible because of

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Speaker 3: this sort of he's so late to the game. And

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Speaker 3: it was a really effective way to make sure that

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Speaker 3: the jury didn't hear a confession from the actual the

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Speaker 3: person who was actually saying that he had committed the crime.

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Speaker 1: So it appears that you know, without Vernon James, and

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Speaker 1: despite witnesses that testified the Falcon's grudge against you, Falcon

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Speaker 1: had not been sufficiently impeached. So one, I understand you

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Speaker 1: decided to take the stand in your own defense.

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Speaker 2: Probably the worst mistake I made in my life, and

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Speaker 2: it was against my attorney. He told me, one, if

365
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Speaker 2: you take this stand, prior REGOs will come. But I said, alka,

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Speaker 2: I did not do this. I wondered you just to

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Speaker 2: know from my mouth that I didn't commit this crime.

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Speaker 2: Since I didn't do it, everything that ahka come to

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Speaker 2: me is going to be no that you ever been

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Speaker 2: done in me deble place? No, did you know me

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Speaker 2: to deb No?

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Speaker 1: All right? But what did the prosecutor ask across you say?

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Speaker 2: Did you committed i'm robbery before? Yes? I had. Did

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Speaker 2: you ever carry going before?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 2: I had? But that don't mean that I killed in

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Speaker 2: the debble.

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Speaker 3: You know. Certainly, not having a prior conviction for robbery,

379
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Speaker 3: having having been in possession of a firearm, those types

380
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Speaker 3: of things certainly hurt him.

381
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Speaker 2: I got real scared and I failed that I was

382
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Speaker 2: in trouble. When I was in Trout and they showed

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Speaker 2: the bloody crime scene photographs, and when the juniors saw

384
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Speaker 2: that crime scene them pictures, they look straight to me,

385
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Speaker 2: and I can see that hate in their eyes, and

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Speaker 2: I know right then and then that I wasn't so big,

387
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Speaker 2: big trouble.

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Speaker 3: After mister Melendez was exonerated and some of the jurors

389
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Speaker 3: were spoken to, you realize that there were some considerations

390
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 3: in that jury room that don't appear in the transcript.

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Speaker 3: Seeing those horrific pictures looking at Wan, he doesn't look

392
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Speaker 3: like them, he doesn't speak their language, has a two

393
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Speaker 3: foot high afro, and all of his witnesses are people

394
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Speaker 3: of color. Someone specifically pointed out Juan's afro and how

395
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Speaker 3: that influenced their verdict.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's a really great point, lind And

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Speaker 1: I think if you look at the history of Polk County,

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Speaker 1: I mean, one year after this trial, they elect a

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Speaker 1: known white supremacist as Sheriff Dan Daniels. This was a

400
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Speaker 1: big problem in Polk County. So you finished the trial,

401
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 1: do you remember when you heard that verdict?

402
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Speaker 2: Ah me, that was something there, Betty, Betty, Betty inguadh

403
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 2: that the whole will But at the same time, I

404
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 2: was scared that same man, these people can kill me.

405
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Speaker 2: And then I go back in the sale, I'm talking

406
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Speaker 2: to it to all the dudes there, and then they

407
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Speaker 2: telling me one with the dead enity, you might get

408
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,640
Speaker 2: publicity and you can show you innocent and get out

409
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 2: of there. I may go. I will not give that

410
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Speaker 2: advice to.

411
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Speaker 1: Nobody prison lawyers. So after the verdict, you come out,

412
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Speaker 1: you address the jury.

413
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Speaker 2: I did make their judus angry because I literally called

414
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Speaker 2: them racists right there, and I mean they've gone in

415
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Speaker 2: there to both for life and death. That as I'm

416
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Speaker 2: making angry a person that cooked for you, you can

417
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Speaker 2: you can put some post in the food. You said

418
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Speaker 2: what I'm saying. So I should never say what I

419
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 2: said as I told the judus say I know the

420
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Speaker 2: reason why do people found me guilt because all my

421
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 2: witnesses were black. But I be back because I mean say,

422
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,239
Speaker 2: and in the name of Jesus, I be back. I

423
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 2: was playing with my life, let's put it like that.

424
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Speaker 2: It was the worst day in my life. I never

425
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Speaker 2: forget the day. It was on a Tuesday, November the second,

426
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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four. I got in there the nest jerday

427
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 2: they executed the ten person. Now I'm super scared. I

428
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 2: do not know the language that well, I do not

429
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 2: know the process. I do not know anything about law.

430
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 2: So I'm thinking they're kidding people here every week how

431
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 2: long it's going to be before they take me. The

432
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Speaker 2: first ten years, right, it was very rough. I'm telling

433
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Speaker 2: your mammy. A lot of people have hanged themselves in there,

434
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Speaker 2: what I was in there. So when my friend named

435
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 2: Simon Rivera, he just hang himself and that hit me

436
00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:01,640
Speaker 2: Rayal real real bear amago, thinking if he can do it,

437
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 2: I can do it. So I'm going to tell you

438
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 2: how they do it, exactly how they do it. The

439
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 2: guy they call it Rona e Verna said, hey, may

440
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 2: he's doing time in prison population, but he's not sending

441
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 2: it to death. They get him out of there so

442
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 2: he can do the work in the devil place. He's

443
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 2: the one that suppliers with the two page, the two bros,

444
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 2: the map in the boom, so you can clean yourself.

445
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 2: But he also can supply you will the tool that

446
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 2: you can take your life with. And he knows it.

447
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 2: All you got to do is give him four post

448
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 2: stamps or a packaging can, rolling paper, tobacco the cheap kind,

449
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 2: and he will give you this tool. Maybe he do

450
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 2: it because he need these items, or maybe he do

451
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:46,199
Speaker 2: it because he called himself assisting you, helping you he

452
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 2: knows you when out of there, he knows that the

453
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 2: road is hell. The two is real simple, he said,

454
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 2: guy is plastic bag. You give him four stamps, and

455
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 2: when the garden looking, he will swing that bag inside

456
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 2: the cell. Take that bag, you twist it up. You

457
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 2: make a rope, put the noose in it. Put the

458
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 2: noose in your neck, throw yourself down, your dead, put

459
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 2: you free. And this is what the demons used to

460
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 2: tell me. Why why you don't why you got to

461
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 2: go to all of this? You're supposed to be a

462
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 2: Puerto Rican man as real match your man. Don't satisfy THEMN.

463
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,400
Speaker 2: Satisfy yourself. You say you didn't do it. So now

464
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 2: I want to take this trip. So I tell that

465
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 2: Rona to give me that gob is bad again four stamps.

466
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 2: And when the guy would look, its wing the bag

467
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 2: inside myself. I twisted, made the rope, put the noose,

468
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 2: put the news in the rope, and I say to myself,

469
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 2: I better lay loving think about this a little bit more.

470
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 2: When I lay down, I may go. Almost immediately I

471
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 2: fell in a deep de sleep, and then I started dreaming.

472
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 2: Then I'm a little kid again that was raising the

473
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 2: island of Puerto Rico. So here I am dreaming. Then

474
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 2: I'm swimming in the beautiful Caribbean sea and believing, my friend,

475
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 2: the water is warm, the sun was so bright, the

476
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 2: sky was so blue, and the palm trees looked so good.

477
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 2: It's a beautiful day. Then in this dream, I see

478
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 2: four dolphins coming to me, A pair got on one

479
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 2: side and a pear gant in another one. Then they

480
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 2: start flipping and jumping like dolphins too. Amygo, I'm having

481
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,919
Speaker 2: a boat in there. Then I looked to the shore

482
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 2: and he said, beautiful lady waving at me, throwing kisses

483
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 2: at me, and she seems so happy. She's happy because

484
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 2: I'm happy. That's my mother. Then I wake up and

485
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 2: that was one of the most beautiful dreams in my life.

486
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 2: And right today, if I'm depressed or I get kind

487
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 2: of angry about something, I started thinking about the dreaming

488
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 2: in this go away. Every time I got kind of depressed,

489
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 2: and every time I think that the war was going

490
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 2: to end up on me, they created the beautiful dream.

491
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 2: And I was wise, God them, that's a sign and

492
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 2: hope that everything is going to be all right.

493
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 3: Wow.

494
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 1: I don't even know what to say other than to

495
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 1: recognize that eventually everything was all right. And even though

496
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 1: it took a long while, long enough for you to

497
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: learn English from your fellow inmates, we're all so grateful

498
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: that you decided to fight your case. Linda, Can you

499
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about the fight that was

500
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 1: ahead of him?

501
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 3: In Florida? At the time when mister Melendez arrived on

502
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 3: death row, there was no state funded defense system. It

503
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 3: was all run through volunteers, and so there were tended

504
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 3: to be delays and getting people attorneys, and if there

505
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 3: were delays in starting the process, there were going to

506
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 3: be delays in executing people. So that seemed to be

507
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 3: a big motivator for the Florida lifelegislature to actually fund

508
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 3: an agency to represent people like mister Melendez.

509
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 1: And that agency was called the Office of the Capital

510
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: Collateral Representative, where you eventually worked. Now, given what we

511
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 1: know about the evidence in this case, can you give

512
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: me some kind of idea about why they were able

513
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: to deny his appeals?

514
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 3: Sure, so, the attorneys at that time did what they

515
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 3: believed they needed to do. They requested records, they spoke

516
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 3: to the trial attorney. They put together what's called the

517
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 3: thirty eight to fifty motion, which is a motion to vacate.

518
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 3: And at that time they had some fairly good information.

519
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 3: They certainly did indicate that Vernon James was a suspect

520
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 3: in the crime, but they didn't have anything all that

521
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 3: different or new from what was presented at the trial

522
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 3: through Roger Mimms, So that appeal ended up in a

523
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 3: summary denial. What is also remarkable on direct appeal is

524
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 3: that Justice Rosemary Barquette, in her dissent, believed that the

525
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 3: death penalty should be dismissed because she thought the evidence

526
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 3: of guilt was so weak that it shouldn't substantiate a

527
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 3: death penalty. So I do think that that is also

528
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 3: really telling that when that justice reviewed his case that

529
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 3: she made that comment.

530
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: But unfortunately, the lack of strength in this evidence wasn't

531
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: enough to make a difference. And there's another problem. Wand's

532
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: appellet attorneys didn't have the recording or transcript of the

533
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 1: trial investigator's interview with Vernon James, and he had passed

534
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 1: away by then, right.

535
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 2: He was maurder two or three years after I was

536
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 2: in dev Roue, you know.

537
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: But it does seem that all roads still led to

538
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: Vernon James. So there was more investigation done and an

539
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 1: evident Sherry hearing was held in May of nineteen ninety six.

540
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: So what happened there?

541
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 3: Five different witnesses testified at that Evidentry hearing, four of

542
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 3: whom said that Vernon James had confessed to the crime.

543
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 3: And then also John Barrant testified at that hearing and

544
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 3: said that what he had said at trial wasn't true.

545
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 3: All of those witnesses, other than one who was John

546
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 3: Barrion's attorney at the time of his trial, all four

547
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 3: of the witnesses were dismissed as being not credible.

548
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 1: You know, this has just got to be so frustrating.

549
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: I mean, it seems like an arbitrary and very subjective

550
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 1: way to be denied, you know, especially in light of

551
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: what was about to be revealed in this case. Linda,

552
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 1: you're now working Jan's case along with Martin McLain, who

553
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: you later opened to practice with, and in two thousand

554
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 1: you were preparing for a federal habeas When there was

555
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 1: a pretty significant discovery.

556
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 3: Made, we decided we were going to just start talking

557
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 3: to witnesses again, and one of those individuals was the

558
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 3: trial investigator Cody Smith, and we also wanted to speak

559
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 3: to mister Alcott, who at that time was a judge,

560
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,719
Speaker 3: and so we contacted Judge Alcott and it was during

561
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 3: that conversation where he said that he may have some

562
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 3: files that had not been disclosed previously to counsel, and

563
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 3: so Judge Alcott allowed Cody Smith to go to his

564
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 3: storage center and lo and behold. Within that storage center

565
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 3: surfaced four tapes sort of those old cassette tapes, and

566
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 3: a paper copy of a transcript of an interview with

567
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 3: Vernon James back in nineteen eighty four, and mister James

568
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 3: had stated that he was president at the time mister

569
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 3: Baker was killed, and it was two other individuals that

570
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 3: had actually done the killing and the robbery, and mister

571
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 3: Melendez was not one of those people. So we started

572
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 3: really taking from that information a whole new investigation about

573
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 3: Vernon James.

574
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: Right, and that led you to Marty Lake, the man

575
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: who had been convicted of killing Vernon James, which then,

576
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 1: of course led you to five more witnesses.

577
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 3: Two of whom saw mister James on the night of

578
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 3: the murder at a motel the Scottish Inn in Auburndale,

579
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 3: and one of whom saw Vernon James almost immediately after

580
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,919
Speaker 3: the murder and said he was covered in blood, and

581
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 3: she helped him find clothes he could wear, took him

582
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 3: over to the motel, and to both her and another individual,

583
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,800
Speaker 3: he confessed that he had been involved in the murder

584
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 3: of mister Baker. Ultimately, what we found out was that

585
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 3: not only did Vernon James confess to multiple individuals with

586
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,439
Speaker 3: whom he was friends related to dating things like that,

587
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 3: he also confessed to several people in law enforcement, including

588
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 3: the state Attorney investigator who had seen him the week

589
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 3: before mister Melendez his trial, and he had actually told

590
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 3: him that he had been there when the murder was committed.

591
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,760
Speaker 1: So it's hard to imagine a world in which Hardy

592
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 1: Pickard didn't know this while he was trying to send

593
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,399
Speaker 1: Wand to death row, or while he fought to keep

594
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,720
Speaker 1: him there. I mean, he didn't retire until two thousand

595
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:57,320
Speaker 1: and nine.

596
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 3: Well, Hardy Pickard had remained with the case all of

597
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 3: the post conviction proceedings, so he was present at the

598
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 3: second post conviction proceeding when John barry And testified and

599
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 3: the various witnesses, and ultimately what he testified to at

600
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 3: our proceeding in two thousand and one was that he

601
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 3: had had a copy of this statement at the time

602
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 3: of that hearing, and he did not reveal that to

603
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 3: the court, and he did not reveal that to defense counsel.

604
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: Right, So he was admonished by that, but by the

605
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 1: judge later on. And he also said something that you know,

606
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 1: David Lunafalcon had nothing to gain by his testimony, when

607
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 1: that wasn't true either, right, correct.

608
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 3: You know, it became clear that he had been working

609
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 3: with law enforcement. They were using him quite extensively in

610
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 3: drug transactions. He was paid for his testimony. He had

611
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 3: a grudge against Swan and mister Pickard had made it

612
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,439
Speaker 3: seem at the trial like if he was getting paid,

613
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 3: it wasn't a significant amount. And the fact that they

614
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 3: protected Falcon in relation to his criminal conduct, you know,

615
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 3: it just kept coming out a little little piece. But

616
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 3: by the end of this it was very clear that

617
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,839
Speaker 3: Falcon was not a credible witness. He had quite a

618
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 3: lot of motive to be involved in this case and

619
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 3: to testify against mister Melendez.

620
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and really there's like zero accountability for this obviously.

621
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,280
Speaker 1: I mean, Hardy Pickard went on to continue to prosecute

622
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 1: people still had similar problems Brady violations that he was

623
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 1: dealing with in later cases, and yet there's never anything

624
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 1: done about these prosecutors.

625
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 3: I mean, as Judge Fleischer, who was the judge at

626
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,320
Speaker 3: our hearing, found, there was quite a bit of evidence

627
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 3: that was suppressed, but there was also rules that were violated,

628
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 3: discovery rules, cases that were clear black letter law that

629
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 3: mister Pickard was calling in witnesses and to his office,

630
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:50,760
Speaker 3: taking swarm statements from individuals, and then not disclosing his notes,

631
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 3: even though those notes may have had exculpatory information, they

632
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 3: may have had impeachment evidence in them, which Judge Fleischer found.

633
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 3: And so when I look at Fleischer's order, it's clear

634
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 3: to me that there's more going on here than just

635
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 3: an inadvertent I forgot to, you know, disclose a particular

636
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 3: piece of documentation. It just seemed like, even from the

637
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 3: way that Mims, Roger Mims surfaces on the eve of

638
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 3: the trial, there was just a pattern of behavior that

639
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,879
Speaker 3: was designed to me to win this case rather than

640
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:25,760
Speaker 3: to see that justice was done here.

641
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 1: But the good news is that eventually justice was done.

642
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:35,320
Speaker 1: On December fifth, two thousand and one Judge, Barbara Fleischer,

643
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 1: vacated Wan's conviction and granted a new trial, and then

644
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,240
Speaker 1: the state decided to drop the charges.

645
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,399
Speaker 2: They took the handkofs off of me, the chains over

646
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 2: my foot. They offered me sola, and they offered me

647
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 2: a hamburger. I don't want to hamburger. I mean, I

648
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 2: just want to go back to myself, back everything and

649
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:56,879
Speaker 2: get the hell out of here. That's what I told her.

650
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 2: So I want to say bye to my friend. His

651
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 2: name is Gladden here. So I got tear this running down.

652
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 2: I got to smile. He smile and me, see, don't

653
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 2: forget about us. And now I'm gonna lie you, amigo.

654
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 2: I hit a clap, then I hit another clap, and

655
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 2: then they start bagging the bars and whistling. The gods

656
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 2: got angry, told them to shut up, to be quiet.

657
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 2: They didn't stop. Who I got out of there. They

658
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 2: was real happy to see me go.

659
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 1: Well, I just want to talk about you know, what's

660
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 1: life like for you? Now? How is this whole experience,

661
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: because it had to be life affecting. How has it

662
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: changed your life?

663
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 2: Well, man, mago, I feel right today that my time

664
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 2: got is spending their role. All the suffering and pain,

665
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 2: it was not for nothing. He's a purpose for it.

666
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 2: And I still got this trench to go around and

667
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 2: speak against it their penalty. And the reason I do

668
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,879
Speaker 2: it is because what happened to me, I don't want

669
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 2: it to happen to nobody else. We don't need a

670
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 2: law like that. We know better, we can do better.

671
00:38:59,200 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 2: We don't need it.

672
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 1: Can you just talk about like where listeners can go

673
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: who care about wrongful conviction, who care about the death

674
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: penalty to support these kind of causes. There any places

675
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:11,360
Speaker 1: that you recommend.

676
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 2: Oran inzations like winness do in and saying any anything

677
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 2: type of little organization they need help. That's good to help,

678
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,879
Speaker 2: But the main thing is to talk to lays. Later,

679
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 2: teach people to talk to the lay's ladel the law

680
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 2: make us. They're the one that can change these things.

681
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 1: Well, we'll have witness to Innocent linked in the bio.

682
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:33,720
Speaker 1: And now we've come to the portion of the show

683
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 1: called closing arguments, where I first thank you both for

684
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 1: joining us today, and now I'm just going to ask

685
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,760
Speaker 1: you for your final thoughts. So let's start with you, Linda,

686
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 1: and we'll close it out with Wan today.

687
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,320
Speaker 3: Well, I would just say that I think that generally

688
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 3: people should understand that there can be things that happen

689
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 3: in the criminal justice system that need to be fixed

690
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 3: or repaired. Those things do happen, and we have to

691
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 3: take steps to fix them and not feel so sort

692
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,919
Speaker 3: of entrenched in the injustice that we can't say that

693
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 3: that was wrong or this mistake was made, because I

694
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 3: do think that unfortunately, as an example in Wan's case,

695
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 3: that may have been part of the reason why no

696
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 3: one wanted to say that there was a problem here.

697
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 3: So I would just ask people to keep that perspective

698
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 3: that mistakes do happen, and you have to be open

699
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 3: minded enough and we have to have the law be

700
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 3: flexible enough to fix those mistakes.

701
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 2: First of all, I want to thank all of you

702
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 2: for doing this, and one thing for inviting Linda to

703
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 2: do it. I go around and speaking about against it

704
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 2: the penity, because like I said before, I want this

705
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 2: who happen to nobody. I also want people to understand

706
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 2: that when they execute someone, then executing the same person

707
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:59,280
Speaker 2: that committed the crime the secuting somebody else. I learned

708
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,759
Speaker 2: this when I was in their role, because I've been

709
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 2: with them and I saw how they change, and believe

710
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 2: me me, amigo, people do change. I've seen it. It

711
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 2: changed for the good. They got some people in there

712
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:13,879
Speaker 2: that I'm not going to say, let them out. It's

713
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 2: some people there that could meit some crime that you

714
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 2: cannot forget the victims, the family, but you don't have

715
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 2: to kill them. The same people that I'm talking about

716
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 2: that the community's crime can also become mentors because they

717
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 2: can teach others not to become like there was. They

718
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 2: can teach the ones that we know we got to

719
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 2: let them go to become a better man in the outside.

720
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 2: The penalty, like they say in Puerto Rico, it's just

721
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 2: a waste. Don't bring nothing. There's more pain, more parable

722
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 2: damage all over. One of the worst things for me

723
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:55,359
Speaker 2: when when I was in their row, is when they

724
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 2: secus someone I'm in the sale next to me. It's

725
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 2: another person that I know for ten or fifteen years.

726
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 2: He cries in my shoulder, I cries in his. His

727
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 2: share with me and him was intimatus. I share mine

728
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 2: with him. And one day they snatch him over there

729
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 2: and I know exactly what's going to happen. And my

730
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:17,320
Speaker 2: time was the electric chair. They kill forty two before

731
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 2: I left. They got to generate the share with electricity

732
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 2: because it's two ten bulls. They got to go to

733
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,399
Speaker 2: the body in order to getting killed. So we can

734
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:32,319
Speaker 2: hear the nosy sound and we know precisely the time

735
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 2: when they kill him because the light bulbs they go

736
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 2: off and off. It's no movie. They do go off

737
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 2: and off because all that power got to go and

738
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,440
Speaker 2: that share. And now I'm telling you me a nego

739
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 2: when that happened, nobody saying nothing. It's just like a

740
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,399
Speaker 2: side like going to it that you're going to buy

741
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,400
Speaker 2: yourself in the cemetery. That's the only time is requiet

742
00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 2: there when that happened. They they're penalty is racist, It

743
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 2: don't deter crime. It's quel and unnecessary. It costs too much.

744
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 2: But the most important thing that people need to learn

745
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 2: is this. Any state that have any contrue that have

746
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 2: it always will be a risk to execute an innocent one.

747
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 2: We always can release an innocent man from prison, but

748
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 2: you cannot, and I repeat, you can never release an

749
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 2: innocent man from their grade.

750
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest host,

751
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 1: Gilbert King. I'd like to thank executive producers Jason Flohm

752
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,399
Speaker 1: and Kevin Wurders for inviting me to be here. I'd

753
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 1: also like to thank our production team Connor Hall, Annie Chelsea,

754
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:51,280
Speaker 1: Lyla Robinson, and Jeff Cliburn. The music in this production

755
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 1: comes from three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be

756
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on

757
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:02,320
Speaker 1: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Po, and on Twitter at wrong Conviction,

758
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 1: as well as Lava for Good. On all three platforms,

759
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,399
Speaker 1: you can find me on Twitter at Gilbert Underscore King,

760
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 1: and you can listen to my podcast Bone Valley from

761
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 1: Lava for Good wherever you listen to podcasts. Wrongful Conviction

762
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 1: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association

763
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 1: with Signal Company Number one