WEBVTT - Steven Wilson 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:12.440 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bath West That's Podcast. 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:17.480 My guest today is artist remixer All Around That Pool 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:24.200 musician Stephen Wilson. Stephen, Hello, Hello, Hello, Hello. Okay, you 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:27.840 just put out a new album, Future Baites. What motivate 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:31.400 you to make new music today? Well, you know, I'm 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:33.800 I'm sort of one of those people that years and 0:00:33.880 --> 0:00:35.440 years and years and years and years ago when I 0:00:35.479 --> 0:00:37.279 was when I was a kid, when I was a teenager, 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:41.199 fell in love with the idea that I could make records, 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:43.720 and for me it was a magical thing and a 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:47.080 gift to be able to do that professionally. So I've 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:50.200 made it my business to make rather a lot of them. Actually, 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:52.479 I'm slowing down a bit. There was three years between 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:56.600 this album and the preceding one, which is almost unheard 0:00:56.960 --> 0:01:00.000 for me. But as an excuse, I did get married 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:03.560 Eden and acquire a family in the meantime, so that 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:05.880 kind of slowed me down a little bit. Yeah, No, 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:08.880 I mean, I've I've just you know, I've just been 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:10.959 in love with the idea of making records ever since 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:14.039 I can remember, even before I knew what things like 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:18.240 producer lyrics, you know, even what those words I was 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:20.679 reading on record sleeves, even before I knew what they meant, 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:25.160 I kind of subconsciously and intuitively knew that's what I 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:26.720 was going to end up doing, and that's what I've 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:30.280 dedicated my life to doing. Okay, you have this new album, 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:33.960 the Future Baits. What was the inspiration for that? So 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:35.880 I wrote a couple of years ago, and and really 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:37.560 the idea of the future bias. There's a couple of 0:01:37.600 --> 0:01:39.959 themes go on on the record. One I guess that 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:43.480 the dominant theme is about how sense of self and 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:49.200 identity have changed in the Internet era. So the idea 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:52.240 that we now, well, let's just say that before the Internet, 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:53.880 we used to look out as a species. We used 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:55.320 to look out at the stars. We used to look 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:59.320 out the world with incredible curiosity. Now we spend most 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:02.080 of our time gazing at a little screen to see 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:05.320 how many likes, how many comments, how many views, etcetera, etcetera. 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:08.160 So the idea that now we see ourselves pretty much 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:10.760 reflected back in the mirror of social media, and how 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:14.040 that has affected us as a species, how that has 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:17.480 affected the course of human evolution, because I really believe 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:20.480 it hasn't quite severely. So the album deals with a 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:23.000 lot of the kind of issues spinning off from that 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:25.000 new era, I guess of what I call the new 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:28.680 era of narcissism. Okay, you said you wrote it a 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:34.880 couple of years ago. Yeah, So what was the interim about. Well, 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:37.600 right here in the UK about two eighteen, we were 0:02:37.600 --> 0:02:39.880 going through this hideous thing called Brexit. In fact, we're 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:43.720 still going through it. It was a very very depressing time. Um. 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:47.520 I was kind of, you know, seeing on social media 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:51.440 the increasing polarization of people, you know, the belligerents, what 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:54.080 I call the politics of hate really coming to the 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:56.760 fore that that whole thing brought out some of the 0:02:56.800 --> 0:03:01.920 worst aspects of humanity, seemed to me. And we were 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:04.480 also in the middle of the Trump administration, so ditto 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:08.040 to that really, So I you know, I I think 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:09.760 I felt for the first time in my life, I 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:14.800 wasn't really looked looking forward to the future particularly, and 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:18.239 of course, low and behold, just as I finished the album, 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:21.359 along comes the pandemic and it's become even more sadly 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:26.280 and ironically, it's become even more relevant and even more topical. Okay, 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:28.799 just to be clear, you wrote it was there an 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:32.200 interim between writing it and recording it, or you just 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:35.320 held the album back because of the pandemic. Yes, so 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:38.800 the album is finished last January, so it's just before 0:03:38.840 --> 0:03:41.640 the pandemic came along. It was being scheduled for release, 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:43.040 and then of course as soon as it kicked in, 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:46.000 we pulled it and and now it's just come out. Okay. 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:48.600 But in your particular case, because most people will hold 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:53.480 albums back, it's primarily because they want to associate the 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:57.920 release with the tour. You have a very dedicated fian base. 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:03.280 Do you find that the were maximize's consumption or use 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:06.320 some more tickets if there's everything happening at the same time, 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:09.520 what's the thinking there, Yeah, for sure. Ideally right now 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:11.280 I would be on tour, I would be doing record 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:13.840 store signings, I'll be doing TV appearances, whatever I can 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:15.960 do to to kind of bolster up the you know, 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:19.279 the record, But I can't do any of that, So ironically, 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:20.800 I'm left with the only thing I can do to 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:24.960 promote this record is social media and making videos and 0:04:25.000 --> 0:04:26.960 posting that sort of stuff online so I can reach 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:29.839 my fan base that way. Um, I think the idea 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:33.120 of originally of postponing the album wasn't necessarily to do 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:37.159 with touring. It was more to do with I wasn't 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:40.600 sure when the pandemic first kicked in, and when Lockdown 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:42.560 first kicked in, I wasn't sure if it was the 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:46.359 right time to release a record that was essentially about 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:50.760 the dystopian world that we lived in. And I'm still 0:04:50.800 --> 0:04:52.800 not sure that the truth is, I'm still not sure, 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:54.520 but I didn't want to hang onto it any longer. 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:57.280 I felt like a year was already more than enough, 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:00.160 you know, to hold it back. Well, the historically there 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:04.800 have been great dysturpian records. Are do you feel that 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:08.400 you're a pioneer of the twenty century or is anybody 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:12.800 else carrying the flag with you? I don't know. I 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:14.800 think there's lots of people. Certainly there's going to be 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:17.400 lots of people writing songs about, you know, what the 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:19.360 human race is going through right now. I've no I've 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:22.160 no doubt there already are many records that have been 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:24.280 released in the last few months that deal with that. 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:27.679 The difference for me, I suppose, is I have a 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:31.560 commitment and a dedication to the idea of the album 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:33.640 as a continuum, as a journey as a kind of 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:36.440 analogist with a film or a short story. I love that. 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:38.960 I love people. I love the idea of people sitting 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:42.200 down and listening to a record in the way in 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:44.200 the same way they would engage with a movie from 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:45.920 beginning to end. You wouldn't just watch a scene of 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:47.440 a movie in the middle, would you. You'd watch it 0:05:47.440 --> 0:05:50.680 from beginning to end. So that kind of art of listening, 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:54.279 which I think is definitely being what has been and 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:58.400 is continuing to be compromised and eroded by what they 0:05:58.480 --> 0:06:02.279 called playlist culture, um is you know, I I do 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:04.960 find myself kind of unusual in that respect. I'm sure 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:07.120 I'm not the only one, but I don't think there 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:10.400 are many of us left committed to that idea of 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:13.880 the album as a continuum. And that comes from from way, 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:16.080 way way back when I used to listen to my dad, 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:18.600 you know, playing Dark Side of the Moon and my 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:22.760 mom playing the classic Dona Summer Georgia Moroda records. Just 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:24.520 I'm sure, if you know, many of those have, like 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:28.279 this sidelong, what I would call disco symphonies. So I 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:31.400 was just completely in love with the idea that you 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:35.279 that music didn't have to be about the three minute 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:39.159 pop form. It could be something much more sophisticated, much 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:41.560 more in the long form in that sense. So I'm 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:43.599 still committed to that idea. I find it hard to 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:46.719 let go of that, even though I know it's kind 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:50.000 of an old fashioned idea in the age of Spotify, 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:53.400 streaming and playlist culture. But I have it. As you said, 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:55.240 I have a very dedicated fan base, so I know 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:58.839 there is still people out there that feel that way too. Okay, 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:03.280 de fire, what you mean by playless culture? Well, so 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:08.000 these days people aren't interested in albums, They're interested in songs. Okay, 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:11.640 So rather than somebody actually listening to a song they 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:13.320 really like, hearing a song they really like on the 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:16.160 radio or you know, on YouTube or whatever it is, 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:18.840 and saying, wow, I love that song, I want to 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:20.960 find out what else that artist has done and listened 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:24.160 to that too. People don't tend to do And obviously 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:26.720 I'm generalizing here, but I think a lot of people 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:30.560 now they don't have that mentality. Uh, it's the song, 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:32.600 that's all they're interested in. They don't care what the 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:35.000 what the rest of the albums like. They're not interested 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:37.880 in in what else that artist might have done. And 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:40.400 that's completely anathema to me, because I grew up being 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:43.800 fascinated by the cult of personality. So I would get 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:46.160 into an artist and immediately I fell in love with 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:48.680 the song. I wanted to hear the record. Not only 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:50.480 didn't want to hear the record, I wanted to hear 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:52.840 all the other records in that artist catalog. I wanted 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:57.320 to understand the trajectory of that artist's career, the bad stuff, 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:00.280 the good stuff, the amazing stuff, they're not so good 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:03.360 stuff that fails. I was fascinating with all of that. 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:06.280 And I don't think that's true a lot of perhaps 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:09.200 the younger generation of listeners now, they just like a song. 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:11.720 They're not interested in finding out much more about the artists. 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:14.360 They're not interested in hearing the album. They're not interesting, 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:16.520 certainly not interested in here, you know, in being you know, 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:20.280 familiarizing themselves with the whole catalog of a particular artist. 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:24.040 That's what I mean by playlist culture. Okay, what do 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:29.280 you view the general landscape of music today? Being the 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:30.760 way I always say, you know, I grew up in 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:34.280 the air sixties and seventies, where music drove the culture. 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:37.080 There was faltering with corporate rock and disco. At the 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:39.360 end of seventy nine, there was another injection as a 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:44.360 result of MTV. Music is still very influential. But I 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:46.920 don't want to answer the question for you. But today's 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:49.360 things have changed. How do you view the landscape of 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:53.840 music today? Are you optimistic pessimistic? Two things need to change? 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:57.959 Will there be an evolution? Yeah? All of the above. Really, 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:00.679 I mean, you know, I think it's true to say 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:03.199 there's more music coming into the world than any other 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:05.080 time in history right now. It's crazy. I mean the 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:07.800 amount of songs. I think Spotify get some like ten 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:11.800 thoud new songs added every day or something crazy or week, 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:13.760 I forget what it is. Anyway, it's a lot. Anyway, 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:15.920 there's a lot of new music being made. And a 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:18.880 part of that, of course, is the democratited eight. Democratization 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:21.360 of making music by the fact now that it's very 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:24.360 easy for anyone to buy a cheap piece of software, 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:26.560 put it on their laptop, and they can make music 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:30.720 in a reasonably high quality. You know, um plug ins, 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:35.559 virtual instruments. Pre preset culture enables people to sound like 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:39.360 their favorite artists almost instantly, just by pressing the right 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:42.040 button or choosing the right option on their on their 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:44.800 on their computer, laptop, on their laptop. So I think 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:50.840 that's good that people are able to make music. Unfortunately, um, 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:54.000 the downside of that is that most of that music 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:57.719 that's being made is extraordinarily generic. And that also is 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:00.960 a problem and a symptom of the preset culture. When 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:04.319 it's very easy to sound like everyone else, that's what happens. 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:07.600 Everyone does sound like everyone else. So you don't have 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:09.840 those kind of um, you don't have that kind of 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:12.600 situation you have perhaps in the sixties and seventies, the eighties, 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:16.920 even the nineties, where people had to find their own tone, 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:20.640 their own sound, their own personality because it wasn't easy 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:24.880 to sound like anybody else. Um. So I think that's 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:28.960 that's the downside of of the ease of accessibility of 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:31.679 now making music is that everyone pretty much sounds the 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:34.320 same as everyone else. I'm you know. But on the 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:37.959 other hand, I'm I'm kind of talking mainly about rock 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:40.440 music here and I and I acknowledge the fact that 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:44.120 I come from the tradition of rock and classic rock music. 0:10:44.160 --> 0:10:46.360 That's what I grew up with. But there is a 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:50.360 new generation of music which does sound much more fresh 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:54.840 and is much more contemporary, is much more innovative, which 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:56.880 has come out of electronic and urban music in the 0:10:56.920 --> 0:11:00.200 twenty one century, and I've been immersing myself up a 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:03.160 little bit more in that world. I don't like it all, 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:06.319 but I'm fascinated by it because a lot of the 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:08.920 people that make it are kind of doing things that 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:11.400 rock musicians don't do. That it's kind of like they 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:14.360 don't know what they don't know, they don't know the rules. 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:17.080 They're not kind of burdened with that kind of legacy 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:19.960 of the Beatles and led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd the 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:21.800 way I am and a lot of my musicians in 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:24.720 my generation are. They're not burdened by that, and they're 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:29.280 doing some extraordinary things. So I do feel, you know, um, 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:31.360 that there is some really interesting music going on. I 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:34.800 just don't feel it's coming from the you know, the 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:37.400 kind of area that I came from, the classic rock background. 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:39.800 It's there's nothing coming from that background that that kind 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:42.840 of interests me these days. What are the rules that 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:46.640 these young people are breaking because they don't have the 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:50.640 history that is burdening them. Well, one of them, for example, 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:54.000 is just in terms of structure. They have no interest. 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:57.720 I'm talking about, you know, people like Kanye West, Billie Eilish, 0:11:57.800 --> 0:12:00.160 Kendrick Lamar, those kind of guys. They're they're the big 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:03.080 names that you know, you you might pick out pick 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:04.559 out of the current scene, but there's a lot of 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:07.120 other people doing it too. If you listen to the 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:11.080 music those guys make, there's no adherence to anything what 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:16.199 you might call a conventional song structure, and that fascinates 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:18.120 me because of course I've grown up with all of 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:22.400 those legacy artists understanding that the whole notion of introverse chorus, 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:24.760 first chorus, middle eight chorus, you know, the classic kind 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:28.320 of tim panale structure that are that are apparently a 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:30.880 great pop song has, although of course there's been exceptions 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:34.560 to that, but these guys don't. They don't kind of 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.520 seem to care about that at all. And I like 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:42.040 that because it makes the music unfolding more unpredictable ways, 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:44.520 and in a way that reminds me that's like going 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:46.000 back to what, you know, what I was talking about 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:48.840 the beginning, this idea the albums could take you on 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:51.760 a journey, and part of the the appeal of that 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:54.080 was you didn't know what was coming next. You didn't 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:56.000 know what was coming next on a concept album, you 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:58.000 didn't know what was coming next if a if a 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:03.240 song was ten minutes long. Um, So that adherence to 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:08.760 classic pop song structures seems to be disappearing and I 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:12.640 kind of I kind of like that. I kind of 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:16.520 applaud that that that interests me certainly. Okay, you know, 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:19.000 there's been a lot of documentation that you have to 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:21.839 put the hook up close so that people don't skip 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:24.440 the song. Is that something you think about when you're 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:28.000 making new music. No, I don't. You know, the only 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:30.600 thing I think about when I'm making new music is 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:35.120 just getting myself excited about it. That's all I think about. 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:37.920 And I've I've had this question come up in you know, 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:40.320 various different forms. Do you think about your fans when 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:43.000 you're making music? And I really don't. And it's an 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:45.840 incredibly selfish way to go about your career, But I 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:48.800 believe that's what an artist is, that someone who's essentially 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:52.440 very selfish. You know, people talk about the music industry 0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:54.440 as if it's one thing, and of course it's never 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:57.040 really been one thing. It's always been at least two things. 0:13:57.040 --> 0:14:01.080 It's been the entertainment industry and the music in industry, 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:03.320 and there's been a crossover. Of course, there has in 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:06.960 certain in the case of certain artists, but generally speaking, 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:10.000 I believe art is something that is made by people 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:13.280 who have this kind of vocation to do something which 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:15.520 comes from their very being, and they have to be 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:17.240 true to themselves. And that's where we get to these 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:19.960 words like integrity, you know. And then there's the other 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:22.160 side of the business, which is, you know, the reality 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:24.000 TV side of the business and the very kind of 0:14:24.000 --> 0:14:27.400 contrived modern pop side of the business making songs that 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:31.760 will fit a particular demographic fit on daytime radio that 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:34.200 basically look at what their audience want and try to 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:36.600 give it to them, or worse, look at what radio 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:39.680 produces want and streaming services want and try to give 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:43.880 that to them. I'm actually incapable of doing that, and 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:46.240 I think anything, I think anyone that has integrity and 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:50.040 considers themselves to be an artist would also be largely 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:53.200 incapable of doing that too, because there's something about creation 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:55.320 and being an artist and being a musician. I think 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:56.760 that you means you have to kind of do what 0:14:56.800 --> 0:14:59.640 you do in a vacuum. So you're absolutely right. I 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:02.520 mean that that whole thing about, you know, modern pop 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:06.360 music being almost a hundred percent about the lead vocal now, 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:11.120 no intro, no solos, no characters of the backing track 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:15.240 at all, just all about the lead vocal. And that 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:17.200 does sadden me a bit because you know, obviously I 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:20.080 grew up in listening to music where the music was 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:22.840 often as important, if not more important, than the top 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:26.200 line vocal melody. And what do you think about the 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:30.040 overuse of the elite drum sound and the lack of 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:33.960 melody in so much of today's current music. It's interesting, 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:37.560 isn't it. How how rhythm has become so fundamentally important 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:40.920 but more important than melody in modern pop. That's something 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:43.200 obviously I don't particularly I mean, my album is still 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:47.400 incredibly melodic, and I worked very hard to make it um, 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:51.360 you know, very strong melodically, as well as being hopefully 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:53.640 sophistication and having all the other stuff going on too. 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:56.840 But you're right, you listen to modern pop and it 0:15:56.960 --> 0:16:01.680 seems that often the hooks are kind of the things 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:04.320 that my kids were chanting the playground. That's about the 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:07.760 level of banality that a lot of the hooks have 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:12.040 almost like you know, playground chance, but it seems to 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:14.120 work for them. And then the music is, as you say, 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:16.600 is this kind of it's all about the rhythm and 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:19.040 it's all about the base. There's not a lot of 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:23.320 what you might call harmonic movement in in modern pop 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:26.960 music with you know. Again, with some exceptions, Taylor Swift 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:29.600 writes great melodies, for example, great great harmonic shifts in 0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:31.760 her music, but a lot a lot of the modern 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:35.120 urban R and B artists now are just basically creating 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:39.320 a rhythm track and then playground chance over the top. 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:43.880 It seems to me, Okay, you're blowing my mind. I 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:48.080 have seen Porcupine Tree, granted that you know, seventeen or 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:52.160 eighteen years ago, and I certainly have followed your career 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:57.920 and I see your picture associated with different certain works 0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:03.560 that you've done. You always seems so serious. I'm talking 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:08.760 to you now. Not only can you talk fluidly, you're 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:11.080 so are you date? Where the hell did all this 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:16.960 come from? Um? Well, I'm very you know, I'm very 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:19.680 I'm a student of music. I've always been a nerd 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:25.760 um and I've always been very passionate about music. And 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:29.879 the history of music. And I've talked a lot about 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:31.280 it by b over the ears, you know. I mean, 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:33.199 I even have my own podcasts and you have my 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:35.600 own podcast where I just basically argue with my friend 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:39.000 about about albums. It's called the Album Years, and we 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:41.359 pick a year and we basically just argue about what 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:43.520 our favorite records are. So I've had a bit of 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:48.240 practice at this. Um. You know, it's not only being 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:50.879 able to talk fluidly. You know, there's an ability to 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:55.240 analyze in the society where analysis is tertiary. If it's 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:57.040 there and all, let's go back to the beginning. So 0:17:57.040 --> 0:17:59.919 where did you grow up? I grew up just outside, 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:03.280 just outside of London, a place called Hamma Hampstead. Okay, 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:06.959 And what did your parents do for a living? So 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:10.000 my parents was an electronic engineer and my mother worked 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:13.880 in the local bank. So there was no there were 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:16.000 before you asked the question, there was no sort of 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:18.520 history of music in my family. How many kids in 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:20.440 the family. So I have one brother who's a couple 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:22.560 of years younger than me, who again has nothing to do, 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:24.920 nothing to do with music. He has a proper job. 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:31.359 But I I think my parents, Um, As I kind 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:34.600 of alluded to earlier, my parents were certainly responsible for 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:37.359 me falling in love with music because they kind of 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:39.439 brainwashed me, you know, when I was too young to 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:41.760 even understand in a good way. I mean, when I 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:44.359 was too young to even understand what I was hearing. 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:49.240 They were playing great records and I would hear them 0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:52.840 on repeat. You know, the soundtrack to Saturday Night Fever, 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:55.639 Abbot's Greatest Hits, Dark Side of the Moon, Tubla Bells, 0:18:55.720 --> 0:19:00.960 you know, Frank Sinatra, these great records, and I was brainwashed. 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:03.199 And still I feel like those records I heard as 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:06.440 a kid when my parents played them are still very 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:09.639 much the foundation of my of my musical DNA. But 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:12.520 ever since then, i've i think partly also because of 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:14.560 my parents and the kind of eclecticism of what they 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:19.520 listened to. I've never really recognized this idea of genre. 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:21.840 And I know people associate with me with with a 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:25.960 genre particular one. It's never one I described myself as 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:28.040 being a part of. I don't describe myself as being 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:31.000 generic in any way. I have no interest in being generic, 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:33.800 and I've always been very much a fan of that 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:37.359 idea of listening, you know, across genres, being curious about 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:40.680 everything that's out there. And I think again that was 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:43.439 because of the music my parents listened to. And how 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:47.439 much formal education have you had? I left school at eighteen. 0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:49.680 I did. I did my what in England was my 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:51.480 O levels and then my A levels. I didn't go 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:53.840 to university because I already knew what I wanted to do. 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:58.720 Um much to my parents dismay, I I kind of 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:01.040 was set already on actually what I wanted to do. 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:03.119 I would say, probably from the age of about thirteen 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:07.160 or fourteen. And did you go to regular public school? 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:09.840 You know that these words in different meaning in the UK, 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:15.280 but you did not go to a private, elite school. No. 0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:17.800 I went to a very regular grammar school. In fact, 0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:19.840 it was a sports It was called a sports college, 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:21.720 which is just a fancy way of saying that they 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:24.160 the emphasis in the syllabus was more on sport than 0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:26.840 it was on the arts. So I had everything stacked 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:29.240 against me in that respect. I didn't really have any 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:33.120 proper music education even at school, so everything was kind 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:35.800 of self taught. But it was all from listening, just 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:38.280 being curious and listening. It's as much music as I 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:40.480 could get my hands on. Okay, so you were listening. 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:44.080 At what point did you start playing? I think almost 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:46.320 as soon as as soon as I realized that I 0:20:46.359 --> 0:20:49.080 was in love with this notion of making records. I 0:20:49.080 --> 0:20:51.160 mean just that, just the whole thing of being able 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:53.240 to hold something in my hand and say that I 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:55.080 did it. That was my ambition, you know, just to 0:20:55.080 --> 0:20:57.080