WEBVTT - How Democrats Passed North Carolina's New Anti-trans Laws, Part Two 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:05.560 All Zone Media. 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:08.879 Welcome Dick It Happened Here a podcast about things falling 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:13.160 apart and also sometimes about how claiming that you were 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:15.440 going to put things back together and then not doing 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:19.240 it makes things fall apart even worse. I am your host, 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:21.680 Mia Wong, and today we are going to be continuing 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:25.239 with part two of my interview with David Forbes, an 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:27.400 editor and journalist with the Trans News Network in the 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:31.600 Asheville Blade, about the history of the North Carolina Democratic 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:38.040 Parties progressive veneer over their agreement with Republican policies, and importantly, 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:43.040 how the Democratic Party's original response to the anti trans 0:00:43.080 --> 0:00:46.279 bathroom bills from twenty sixteen paved the way for where 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:51.960 we are today. So enjoy. Let's talk about the original 0:00:51.960 --> 0:00:56.440 bathroom bills, because I think there's some knowledge well, okay, 0:00:56.440 --> 0:00:58.560 I don't know. It's been almost a decade. Yeah, so 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:00.800 I think people may have forgotten how this all start. 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:04.440 Is let's talk about the first bathroom bills, what happened, 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:07.640 and then how the Democrats kind of ensured that they 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:08.479 would stay in place. 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:12.600 Sure, so there is the big one everyone knows about 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:15.440 is HB two because it became kind of internationally famous 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:18.360 as the North Carolina bathroom Bill, and even I think 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:20.560 for folks who memories may have faded, it has come 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:23.600 up recently as kind of a benchmark, and often a 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:26.600 misinterpreted one. Is we're about to get into for how 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:30.560 far things have shifted, because on paper it looks like 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:34.240 this really horribly backfired, and in some ways it did. 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:34.760 Initially. 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:39.399 HB two was a bill that was kind of slapped 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:44.760 in last minute. It clearly drew from the larger anti 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:48.440 trans far right policy circles which North Carolin Republicans are 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:51.880 highly connected to. Those kind of Dems often kind of 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:54.760 view themselves their own little like institution, like where the 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:55.680 Democratic moderorate. 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:57.720 It's like North northund Democrats have always been at their best. 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:00.960 People of that ttuation when we talked about the Republicans 0:02:00.960 --> 0:02:04.200 here were like, Okay, we're now in power, which they 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:07.360 were starting in twenty eleven. Let's try out this stuff 0:02:07.360 --> 0:02:09.280 from ALEC, Let's try out this stuff from some obscure 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:11.560 right wing think tank. And that meant they were plugged 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:16.440 in when in the wake of Obergafell, and also in 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:19.959 North Carolina as well the year before, you'd had equal 0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:23.359 marriage for that whole swath of the South was kind 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:26.200 of imposed by a federal court order or recognized by 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:28.960 federal court order. So they were like, Okay, this isn't working. 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:32.040 There is not just more. There is more de facto 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:35.400 on the ground popular acceptance of equal marriage. Now that's 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:38.600 not the wedge it was previously. So what do we 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:41.440 shift to? What we shift to? Trans people? And so 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:45.200 North caronl legislators very eager to try out far right policies. 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:48.840 The Caron GOP is far right even by Southern standards, 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:51.960 which is interesting because the state's very split as far 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:56.120 as like votes and demographics go. So twenty sixteens rolled 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:59.480 around four years earlier, the Dems had done the usual thing. 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:03.840 They'd run a super conservative, super pro business, white guy Democrat. 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:07.560 He got trounced by Pat McCrory, who was the former 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:09.680 mayor of Charlotte, and Rain was like, oh, I'm a moderate, 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:12.480 sensible Republican. I'm going to bounce out the legislature a 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:16.440 little bit. But unlike too many outside the region and 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:18.040 the state who kind of wrote a oka in North 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:20.480 Carolina just becoming this red state now like other Southern 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:23.480 states have, they knew their hole was actually really precarious. 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:29.399 Now think jerrymandered extensively, so extensively that like North Carolina 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:32.400 the same year as HB two pass stopped being recognized 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:36.120 as a democracy by the the policiers the study. As 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:38.920 a matter of fact, the district Carolina they did a 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:41.720 whole commentary later that year that these were the most 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:44.680 rigged districts, the most chairman districts they'd seen, not just 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:46.839 in the US, but anywhere in the world. 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:49.520 So that is where we live. That's where we lived 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:50.200 for some time. 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:54.520 But the governors like the statewide so he's in a 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:59.080 more precarious position, and they wanted a wedge issue in 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:01.880 their view to drive out conservative votes. They also hate 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:05.400 trans people and want to hurt us. So this HB 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:10.880 two said that trans people can't go into bathrooms unless 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:13.640 they use the one matching their birth certificate in any 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:15.120 state building in North Carolina. 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:16.320 And this technically also. 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:20.160 Includes like local government buildings, includes like social services, it 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:24.479 includes like any educational setting pretty much. So this was 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:26.359 clearly a slab dash affair. They didn't even have like 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:29.200 an enforcement mechanism in there. But I did a few 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:31.760 other things too, I think people forget about, which is 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:35.680 it also stripped the ability of localities to make their 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:38.720 own minimum wage rules. So it was also an attack 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:42.720 on labor because those always go together and not unrelated. 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:45.719 Trans and queen people are only working class demographics, which 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:49.160 I don't think get setting up, and also essentially users 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:53.080 on reaction to Charlotte adding gender identity to its existing 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:56.960 non discrimination ordinance. There's old was a local one, but 0:04:57.040 --> 0:04:59.040 in reality, you know, if chart had never done that, 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:02.080 they would have done a bill like this pretty shortly. Anyway, 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:05.320 it was kind of just the excuse. And they also 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:09.120 struck down all non discrimination ordinances across the state, like 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:13.040 local non discrimination ordinances. So this is a broad attack 0:05:13.640 --> 0:05:16.760 with trans people as kind of the point of the spear, 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:19.400 as it were, like the ones most in the front lines. 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:20.920 It's a familiar pattern. 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:24.120 You go after trans rights, you're also going after broad 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:27.240 rights for any marginalized group because non discrimation stuff is 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:30.080 being struck down left and right, and also your attacking 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:33.200 labor yep. So you know, it really kind of set 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:36.039 the model for things to come. HB two sparks a 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:41.400 massive international backlash. I think the indestment was four hundred million. 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:44.479 The state lost four hundred million, as companies pulled out, 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:48.320 events pulled out. There was a boycott, a fairly effective one, honestly, 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:52.720 that was started as grassroots though gay inc Groups and 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:57.000 even like just random nonprofits, and some Democratic Party officials 0:05:57.080 --> 0:06:00.679 later joined in on it. So the money being hemorrhage 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:03.760 left and right, McCrory's being turned into a national laughing stock, 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:07.000 if anything, is proving a rallying point for the other side. 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:11.480 Because twenty sixteen rolls around, and in a year where 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:14.520 Trump takes North Carolina and generally the Republicans do fairly 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:17.400 well throughout the South, even in a swing states like NC, 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:21.839 McCrory loses. He loses to the Attorney General, Roy Cooper 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:24.599 is a Democrat. Now, I would never say his prograins 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:26.719 we're about again some major betrayals he did. He was 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:29.839 more willing to say, at least perfunctory statements about trains 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:33.720 rights than any northbound Democratic politician as a statewide level 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:38.000 before and honestly since, including the current governor. And yeah, 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:51.600 he proceeded to win, so he gets in office. North 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:54.880 Carolina gentry are historically plenty fine with big A treatment, 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:56.960 but the Republicans had by this point broken one of 0:06:57.000 --> 0:06:57.760 their cardinal rules. 0:06:57.760 --> 0:06:59.039 Which is they fucked with the money. 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:02.160 Yeah, because like the state was losing money, they were 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:05.520 losing business deals, corporate headquarters and stuff. And this is 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:08.800 a lot of what the status quo, very anti labour says. 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:11.280 Quote that North Tide Democrats and Republicans had generally both 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:15.640 supported in varying ways was in danger. And you know 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:17.520 some of them person who were losing money. So they 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:21.920 basically tell the Republicans in early twenty seventeen to knock 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:24.280 it off, like, Okay, you've gone far enough. 0:07:24.520 --> 0:07:26.120 It didn't work, you lost the election. 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:28.480 They still do the Jerry manner had a lot of 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:31.080 power in the state legislature, but they didn't have the 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:35.360 governor's office anymore, so you know, repeal this like we're 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:38.000 getting too much BAP publicity. And what really escalated it 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:40.720 was basketball is kind of a religion in North Carolina, 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:44.040 especially college basketball, and the NCAA said, look, we'll pull 0:07:44.080 --> 0:07:46.040 the tournament out of HB two is still in the books. 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:49.280 And at that point there became like these back and 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:53.600 forth sessions. Earlier in December, there was this compromise effort 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:58.080 where supposedly Charlotte would strike its non discrimination stuff on 0:07:58.160 --> 0:07:58.560 its end. 0:07:58.560 --> 0:07:59.600 It was currently. 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:02.080 Liket of legal challenge. They'd gone to court to fight 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:04.920 to uphold it. And this should have been a warning 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:08.200 sign the governor, Governor ELEC Cooper at that point broker 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:11.559 kind of this deal where okay, Charlotte, you take trains 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:13.480 people out of your non screaming short and insa of 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:16.240 your own accord and the state will repeal HB two. 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:19.360 Well that didn't happen. They did the first part, and 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:21.760 then the let's sae legislators were like, okay, well that's nice, 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:24.240 we're not doing anything about this. That should have been 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:28.320 a lesson about complying in the advance, but it didn't 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:31.760 really seem to take sadly, so HB two was sow 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:33.719 in the books by March, you know, March madness is 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:37.040 coming up and all that. And so they finally do 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:41.199 a repeal and this is still hailed as oh, look 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:44.520 like back in the day, like even Republicans, some Republicans 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:46.720 would like repeal a trans bill when it got this 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:49.040 big backlash. Their federal funding was being threatened as well 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:51.600 for the state. I was not like federal education funding 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:54.800 and all. That's not what happened though, And what happened 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:56.599 I think is actually was a lot more ominous and 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:00.240 a lot more revealing. What passed instead was honest a 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:03.400 second bathroom bill called HB one four to two or 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:06.280 HB two point zero, as a lot of activists and 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:08.560 queer folks in the ground transfer the Ground dubbed it. 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:12.120 And what this bill did was it technically took out 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:14.439 the bathroom ban, but it's put in a bunch of 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:16.839 byzantine provisions about who could use the bathroom wins, so 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:18.520 it would still take a court case for a trans 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:22.439 woman to go use the women's bathroom. It kept all 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:24.559 the anti labor stuff, and it kept all the non 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:27.640 discrimination stuff struck down for years, like you couldn't pass 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:31.920 local manuscration protections for years. And at this point the 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:36.040 pressure is mounting the Democratic Party for the first time 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:40.040 in most of a decade, their votes in the legislature 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:42.760 actually matter because the Republican they're split between kind of 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:44.880 the capitalists who are hate trains that we're using this 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:47.040 as a wedge issue and now the money's being fucked 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:49.520 with they're ready to repeal it, and some of the 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:52.120 others who are like, no, no, we really are dedicated to 0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:54.480 hating trans people. Mistake can burn as long as trans 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:56.439 people's lives are made more miserable. So they have the 0:09:56.520 --> 0:09:59.000 votes in their own caucus to pass this. So for 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:01.360 once DEM's had a lot of power and they could 0:10:01.400 --> 0:10:03.920 have easily been like no floor or peel or nothing, 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:07.120 and they probably would have gotten it through. They did not. 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:10.600 They sided with the Republicans. They passed this mess that 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:14.560 essentially kept the status quo. It was just barely enough 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:17.520 for the NCAA, who even noted they even know their corporation. 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:18.400 Basically they know it was. 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:21.600 Reluctant that they were, you know, putting the tournament back 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:25.280 in NC, but they did. The governor knew. Governor democratic 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:28.600 governor signed it. I probably mentioned earlier. HB two passed 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:31.200 with two Democratic votes in the first place. This is 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:34.560 like not a new trend of this happening. Heck, anti 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:37.520 queer stuff even well before that would often pass with 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:40.640 Democratic support as well as Republican support, often be signed 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:45.120 by democratic governors, so this is not an entirely new thing. 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:47.600 And this is also a point where you can see 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:50.480 gay ink splitting a bit because gay ink did actually 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:54.360 have actually condemned HB two point zero, but once it 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:58.600 became passed, they either offered tempted statements or they backed down. 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:02.959 And so the US and from HB two wasn't okay. 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:06.200 Back in the day, you know, nine years ago, trans 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:08.560 rights used to be more of a consensus, even among 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:12.240 moderate conservatives, at least basic protections for it. And a 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:15.520 good example was how unpopular HBT was. It was repealed 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:18.800 under all this backlash. It did get a backlash, yeah, 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:21.760 but it wasn't really repealed. And as a matter of fact, 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:25.200 what the far right learned was that when it comes 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:28.920 down to it, the Democrats North Carolina, it turned out 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:32.000 elsewhere will fold if trans rights has made an issue. 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:35.560 Yeah, and you know, and you can watch everything that 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:39.520 has happened since with trans rights has just been the 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:42.120 Democrats folding over and over and over again and getting 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:44.800 weaker and weaker language until we're in this place now, 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:46.480 you know, Like and I think the thing that is 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:49.320 a little bit different, is it Like you used to 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:53.439 have to like claim you had done something yeah about 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:55.679 the anti trans bill, and now you can just sign 0:11:55.720 --> 0:11:58.680 it yeah, and it becomes law. And this is something 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:00.360 that has does played out across the coach, Like there 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:03.400 have been a lot of states where democratic governors have 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:05.160 signed anti trans bills, yes. 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:08.120 Or vita pro trans bills like in California. Yeah. 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:11.160 And you know even in states where like Pritzker, the 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:13.120 governor of Illinois, has been being held up as like 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:15.000 the big pro trans people I've seen. I see like 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:18.240 even trans leftists doing this. And you know, like there 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:19.720 are a lot of things in Illinois that are very 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:22.840 good for trans people because of the weird Pritzker corruption, 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:26.040 his sister is trans. And also the moment the government 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:29.160 was like, oh hey, we're gonna like sort of make 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:33.000 a big show of threatening like healthcare funding, Pritsker just 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:36.079 folded and let all these hospitals stop providing transcrir to youth, 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:38.800 even though it is literally a violation of Illinois like 0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:40.640 of Illinois ANSI discrimination legislation. 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:43.480 Yeah, they just back down and refuse to do it. Yeah. 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:45.839 And the way that this starts is that there is 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:50.240 a gap between the rhetoric of someone like Pritzker being like, oh, no, 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:52.400 like we support trans rights. Trans rights are in an 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:55.240 important civil rights issue, and then you watch them like 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:57.840 allow a bunch of hospitals in Illinois to stop providing 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:00.439 care to trans kids. And the place where that ends 0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:04.720 is more and more Democrats just straight up voting for 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:05.280 this stuff. 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:05.920 Yeah. 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:08.079 And it's and the Democrats, you know, as you're talking 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:11.440 about with with HB two is like, you know, there 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:13.120 were there were Democratic votes on that one. 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:17.120 Yeah, HB one four two especially, Yeah, the compromise, Billy, 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:19.080 but even HB too itself. Yeah, there were there were 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:20.240 Democrats who score that too. 0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:20.840 Yeah. 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:22.440 And so this is this is I think the critical 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:25.320 part of this is that, like this stuff only can 0:13:25.480 --> 0:13:28.200 happen with the support of the Democrats. And that's why 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:31.280 it's happening. It's because yes, because like and this is 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:33.480 this is something that's incredibly important right now. We're like 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:35.960 all of the ship that is happening, all these Republicans 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:39.800 are doing are hideously unpotty, like thirty percent approval ratings 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:43.920 across the board for like all of this just hideously 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:48.200 hideously hated. The only way it can happen is if 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:52.160 the Democrats go collaborationists inside with the Republicans, and that's 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:53.079 what they're doing now. 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:54.480 Things always need whislims. 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:58.040 Yeah, and they're relying on the image of resistance to 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:00.560 distract everyone from the fact that they're helping these policies 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:02.080 go through and if you want to stop them, you 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:03.800 have to stop them from collaborating. 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:15.720 I think I also brings up kind of the third 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:18.400 element in this. You've got the bar always fascist, increasingly 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:22.960 fashist Republican Party. You've got the increasing collaborations Democratic Party, 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:27.080 and especially on queer and trains rights. You have gay 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:29.560 inc which, and I go into some examples in the piece. 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:32.960 After HB two point zero they put out some preferrenctory statements, 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:35.920 but then they turned to gatekeeping, and the ensuing years 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:42.000 they very consistently tried to stifle any activism that was 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:45.320 more radical or more principled to try to get this 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:48.040 stuff off the books, and especially if it came to 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:50.320 holding Democratic officials feet the fire. I literally have an 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:52.520 example in the article that I was physically therefore and 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:56.280 witnessed where a director of the canvass and Equality sees 0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:58.760 the mic as it was being passes in candidates to 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:02.240 answer a stronger question and from some transactivists and change 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:05.120 the question to something that didn't actually put any pressure 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:08.120 on them at all, like just kind of absurd, petty 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:11.760 stuff like that. But the coom of effect has been that, 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:15.160 you know, they turned to thinking about their political careers 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:18.720 and their fundraising. And when push comes to shove again 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:21.600 and again, they've shown they won't hold Democrats' feet to 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:23.720 the fire. If anything, they will tell the Trains people 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:25.480 trying to hold their feet the fire to shut up. 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:29.160 So if you know that the lobby, the official lobby 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:32.520 that's supposed to, you know, ostensibly, on some level stand 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:34.720 up for some mild version of trains and queer rights, 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:39.160 will never give someone any shit for breaking ranks. Not 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:42.000 even like we condemn officials so and so and their 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:45.400 bigotry or whatever more we are sorely disappointed in or 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:47.040 anyone of the boiler play things. They won't even go 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:51.040 that far. That's too far for them. So you have 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:57.760 Democrats collaborating and a gay ink structure that has taken 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:00.000 the energy and funding out of lave of the queer activists, 0:16:00.720 --> 0:16:04.000 but will absolutely will not fight when Democrats are involved. 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:05.720 So if you're fascist, all you have to do is 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:07.000 get some Democrats involved. 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:10.240 Yeah, and that's that's how you give VICHI friends Like 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:11.480 that's yeah. 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:13.880 And honestly, this is it's a question I put to 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:16.840 folks because you know, look, I'm honestly dealing with the 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:18.640 North crownd Democrats. Is one of the things that made 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:22.280 me an anarchist. So yeah, so it's you know, I've 0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:24.880 not had any faith in them for a very very 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:27.000 long time. But for folks that you know, kind of 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:30.400 do put a little more energie into electoral processes, I 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:32.920 just you know, a questions the piece I think are 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:35.880 worth asking them, Like what's the point of people who 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:37.200 are just going to support your enemies? 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:38.440 Yeah? What's the point of. 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:41.520 People that you elect, maybe even like get out you 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:44.800 know and dock doors or whatever to get elected, who 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:47.360 then don't do the one thing they're elected to do? 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:50.200 And God asked too for some of the folks who 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:52.880 support some of these gay ink ords, I was like, 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:56.760 if they won't fight, now, what is the point of them? Yeah, 0:16:56.800 --> 0:16:59.960 why do they deserve any support from us as a community? 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:03.440 Or is it far past time to look to other alternatives? 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:06.359 There was only lesson hbto taught as well, which is 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:10.399 if you want even the most die hard bigot to 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:14.919 start losing their nerve, to attack their money and their power, 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:19.119 and then you don't stop if so, say all you 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:21.679 have to compromise with a pragmatic solution, You ignore them, 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:24.840 laugh in their faces, do whatever. But you keep pressting 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:27.359 them because that was their thing. HQ too, there was 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:31.639 a really effective campaign to boycott and it did have 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:35.040 a substantial effect. You know, the lovely weapon of vicious 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:37.920 mockery really came in handy, and even the rulgas didn't 0:17:37.920 --> 0:17:41.560 like becoming a national laughing stock, so there were less 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:44.040 about how stuff could be fought as well. And the 0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:46.479 more radical history in North Carolina. You know, there are 0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:48.880 there are quer radicals here and you know, my city 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:52.720 was hit by a massive hurricane last year and honestly, 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:54.560 it was a lot of US radicals getting out in 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:59.199 the ground that kept things from getting even worse. And 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:01.280 you know, and just folks on the ground pitching in 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:04.399 outside of government structures, not waiting for the official nonprofits 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:06.760 who were either devastated or had not planned for this. 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:10.880 So there are other alternatives, you know, and or heck 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:12.200 that the hell. 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:14.920 I have to remember, I could curse here. 0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:19.440 That the fact that civil rights we the low attention 0:18:19.520 --> 0:18:21.480 has gone to sitidence and there was a lot of 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:22.720 organizing in those movements. 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:24.159 It's a lot more Miltont than folks. 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:28.560 Remember that also went along three decades of riots and 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:32.520 cities throughout the state before the old order even began. 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:33.760 To budge a little bit. 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:37.280 And the lesson from that North caround Democrats and North 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:39.720 Caunta status quo. And I see throughout the South and 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:44.080 throughout the country it only budges even starts to move 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:47.200 when the cost of continuing the way it is become 0:18:47.320 --> 0:18:47.960 far too high. 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:51.840 Yeah, and our job is to impose that cost. Yes, 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:54.080 because if we don't impose that cost, they're going to 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:56.880 keep pushing and they are going to continue to write 0:18:56.920 --> 0:18:58.800 us out of existence until they have the guns to 0:18:58.840 --> 0:18:59.040 do it. 0:18:59.160 --> 0:18:59.360 Yeah. 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:01.840 And on that is that is a mentality I think 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:06.240 a lot more people need to need to absorb. And 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:09.320 I think one of the lessons from you know, fighting 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:12.040 the far right at some points for my entire like 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:15.280 adult life basically even a little bit before then in 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:18.720 North Carolina is that the more you fight than the 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:21.439 weaker they are. But also, and this is this is 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:24.119 something one of the more experience transfernds us South I 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:28.120 know has emphasized, you won't always win, you can always 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:31.720 inflict a cost. And I think a little more like 0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:34.679 thinking outside of elections, a little more bloody minded determination 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:38.080 can really come in handy of the sense of like 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:41.399 if our enemies are like, Okay, court rules against us, 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:45.359 We're still pressing the attack. Okay, election goes against us, 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:48.040 We're still pressing the attack. I think we can do 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:50.159 way meaner and way better than they than they do 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:53.600 on that front. Something goes against us, that's nice. We're 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:57.800 still pressing the attack. You know, there's nothing in this 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:01.000 healthscape of an empire we have to abuy by, especially 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:01.760 not in the South. 0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:02.600 Yeah. 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:07.520 Yeah, So if something doesn't go our way once, Okay, learn, regroup, redouble, 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:09.560 make sure you inflicted some costs, go out and inflict 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:10.040 more of them. 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:11.919 They're not invincible, trust me. 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:14.800 Yeah, another gender is possible. 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:16.520