1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: All Zone Media. 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:08,879 Speaker 2: Welcome Dick It Happened Here a podcast about things falling 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 2: apart and also sometimes about how claiming that you were 4 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 2: going to put things back together and then not doing 5 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 2: it makes things fall apart even worse. I am your host, 6 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 2: Mia Wong, and today we are going to be continuing 7 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 2: with part two of my interview with David Forbes, an 8 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 2: editor and journalist with the Trans News Network in the 9 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 2: Asheville Blade, about the history of the North Carolina Democratic 10 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 2: Parties progressive veneer over their agreement with Republican policies, and importantly, 11 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 2: how the Democratic Party's original response to the anti trans 12 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:46,279 Speaker 2: bathroom bills from twenty sixteen paved the way for where 13 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 2: we are today. So enjoy. Let's talk about the original 14 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 2: bathroom bills, because I think there's some knowledge well, okay, 15 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 2: I don't know. It's been almost a decade. Yeah, so 16 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 2: I think people may have forgotten how this all start. 17 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 2: Is let's talk about the first bathroom bills, what happened, 18 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 2: and then how the Democrats kind of ensured that they 19 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:08,479 Speaker 2: would stay in place. 20 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 3: Sure, so there is the big one everyone knows about 21 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 3: is HB two because it became kind of internationally famous 22 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 3: as the North Carolina bathroom Bill, and even I think 23 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 3: for folks who memories may have faded, it has come 24 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 3: up recently as kind of a benchmark, and often a 25 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 3: misinterpreted one. Is we're about to get into for how 26 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 3: far things have shifted, because on paper it looks like 27 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 3: this really horribly backfired, and in some ways it did. 28 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 4: Initially. 29 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 3: HB two was a bill that was kind of slapped 30 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 3: in last minute. It clearly drew from the larger anti 31 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 3: trans far right policy circles which North Carolin Republicans are 32 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 3: highly connected to. Those kind of Dems often kind of 33 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 3: view themselves their own little like institution, like where the 34 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 3: Democratic moderorate. 35 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 4: It's like North northund Democrats have always been at their best. 36 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 3: People of that ttuation when we talked about the Republicans 37 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 3: here were like, Okay, we're now in power, which they 38 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 3: were starting in twenty eleven. Let's try out this stuff 39 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 3: from ALEC, Let's try out this stuff from some obscure 40 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 3: right wing think tank. And that meant they were plugged 41 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 3: in when in the wake of Obergafell, and also in 42 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 3: North Carolina as well the year before, you'd had equal 43 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,359 Speaker 3: marriage for that whole swath of the South was kind 44 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 3: of imposed by a federal court order or recognized by 45 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 3: federal court order. So they were like, Okay, this isn't working. 46 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 3: There is not just more. There is more de facto 47 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 3: on the ground popular acceptance of equal marriage. Now that's 48 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 3: not the wedge it was previously. So what do we 49 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 3: shift to? What we shift to? Trans people? And so 50 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 3: North caronl legislators very eager to try out far right policies. 51 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 3: The Caron GOP is far right even by Southern standards, 52 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 3: which is interesting because the state's very split as far 53 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 3: as like votes and demographics go. So twenty sixteens rolled 54 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 3: around four years earlier, the Dems had done the usual thing. 55 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 3: They'd run a super conservative, super pro business, white guy Democrat. 56 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 3: He got trounced by Pat McCrory, who was the former 57 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 3: mayor of Charlotte, and Rain was like, oh, I'm a moderate, 58 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 3: sensible Republican. I'm going to bounce out the legislature a 59 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 3: little bit. But unlike too many outside the region and 60 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 3: the state who kind of wrote a oka in North 61 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 3: Carolina just becoming this red state now like other Southern 62 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 3: states have, they knew their hole was actually really precarious. 63 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:29,399 Speaker 3: Now think jerrymandered extensively, so extensively that like North Carolina 64 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 3: the same year as HB two pass stopped being recognized 65 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 3: as a democracy by the the policiers the study. As 66 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 3: a matter of fact, the district Carolina they did a 67 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 3: whole commentary later that year that these were the most 68 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 3: rigged districts, the most chairman districts they'd seen, not just 69 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:46,839 Speaker 3: in the US, but anywhere in the world. 70 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 4: So that is where we live. That's where we lived 71 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 4: for some time. 72 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 3: But the governors like the statewide so he's in a 73 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 3: more precarious position, and they wanted a wedge issue in 74 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 3: their view to drive out conservative votes. They also hate 75 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 3: trans people and want to hurt us. So this HB 76 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 3: two said that trans people can't go into bathrooms unless 77 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 3: they use the one matching their birth certificate in any 78 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 3: state building in North Carolina. 79 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 4: And this technically also. 80 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:20,160 Speaker 3: Includes like local government buildings, includes like social services, it 81 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 3: includes like any educational setting pretty much. So this was 82 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:26,359 Speaker 3: clearly a slab dash affair. They didn't even have like 83 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 3: an enforcement mechanism in there. But I did a few 84 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 3: other things too, I think people forget about, which is 85 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 3: it also stripped the ability of localities to make their 86 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 3: own minimum wage rules. So it was also an attack 87 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 3: on labor because those always go together and not unrelated. 88 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 3: Trans and queen people are only working class demographics, which 89 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,160 Speaker 3: I don't think get setting up, and also essentially users 90 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 3: on reaction to Charlotte adding gender identity to its existing 91 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 3: non discrimination ordinance. There's old was a local one, but 92 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 3: in reality, you know, if chart had never done that, 93 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 3: they would have done a bill like this pretty shortly. Anyway, 94 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 3: it was kind of just the excuse. And they also 95 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 3: struck down all non discrimination ordinances across the state, like 96 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 3: local non discrimination ordinances. So this is a broad attack 97 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 3: with trans people as kind of the point of the spear, 98 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 3: as it were, like the ones most in the front lines. 99 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 4: It's a familiar pattern. 100 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 3: You go after trans rights, you're also going after broad 101 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 3: rights for any marginalized group because non discrimation stuff is 102 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 3: being struck down left and right, and also your attacking 103 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 3: labor yep. So you know, it really kind of set 104 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,039 Speaker 3: the model for things to come. HB two sparks a 105 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 3: massive international backlash. I think the indestment was four hundred million. 106 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,479 Speaker 3: The state lost four hundred million, as companies pulled out, 107 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 3: events pulled out. There was a boycott, a fairly effective one, honestly, 108 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:52,720 Speaker 3: that was started as grassroots though gay inc Groups and 109 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 3: even like just random nonprofits, and some Democratic Party officials 110 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:00,679 Speaker 3: later joined in on it. So the money being hemorrhage 111 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 3: left and right, McCrory's being turned into a national laughing stock, 112 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 3: if anything, is proving a rallying point for the other side. 113 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 3: Because twenty sixteen rolls around, and in a year where 114 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 3: Trump takes North Carolina and generally the Republicans do fairly 115 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 3: well throughout the South, even in a swing states like NC, 116 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 3: McCrory loses. He loses to the Attorney General, Roy Cooper 117 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 3: is a Democrat. Now, I would never say his prograins 118 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 3: we're about again some major betrayals he did. He was 119 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 3: more willing to say, at least perfunctory statements about trains 120 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 3: rights than any northbound Democratic politician as a statewide level 121 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 3: before and honestly since, including the current governor. And yeah, 122 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 3: he proceeded to win, so he gets in office. North 123 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 3: Carolina gentry are historically plenty fine with big A treatment, 124 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 3: but the Republicans had by this point broken one of 125 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 3: their cardinal rules. 126 00:06:57,760 --> 00:06:59,039 Speaker 4: Which is they fucked with the money. 127 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, because like the state was losing money, they were 128 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 3: losing business deals, corporate headquarters and stuff. And this is 129 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 3: a lot of what the status quo, very anti labour says. 130 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 3: Quote that North Tide Democrats and Republicans had generally both 131 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 3: supported in varying ways was in danger. And you know 132 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 3: some of them person who were losing money. So they 133 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 3: basically tell the Republicans in early twenty seventeen to knock 134 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 3: it off, like, Okay, you've gone far enough. 135 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 4: It didn't work, you lost the election. 136 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 3: They still do the Jerry manner had a lot of 137 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 3: power in the state legislature, but they didn't have the 138 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 3: governor's office anymore, so you know, repeal this like we're 139 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 3: getting too much BAP publicity. And what really escalated it 140 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 3: was basketball is kind of a religion in North Carolina, 141 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 3: especially college basketball, and the NCAA said, look, we'll pull 142 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 3: the tournament out of HB two is still in the books. 143 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 3: And at that point there became like these back and 144 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 3: forth sessions. Earlier in December, there was this compromise effort 145 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 3: where supposedly Charlotte would strike its non discrimination stuff on 146 00:07:58,160 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 3: its end. 147 00:07:58,560 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 4: It was currently. 148 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 3: Liket of legal challenge. They'd gone to court to fight 149 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 3: to uphold it. And this should have been a warning 150 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 3: sign the governor, Governor ELEC Cooper at that point broker 151 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,559 Speaker 3: kind of this deal where okay, Charlotte, you take trains 152 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 3: people out of your non screaming short and insa of 153 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 3: your own accord and the state will repeal HB two. 154 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 3: Well that didn't happen. They did the first part, and 155 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 3: then the let's sae legislators were like, okay, well that's nice, 156 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 3: we're not doing anything about this. That should have been 157 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 3: a lesson about complying in the advance, but it didn't 158 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 3: really seem to take sadly, so HB two was sow 159 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:33,719 Speaker 3: in the books by March, you know, March madness is 160 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 3: coming up and all that. And so they finally do 161 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,199 Speaker 3: a repeal and this is still hailed as oh, look 162 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 3: like back in the day, like even Republicans, some Republicans 163 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 3: would like repeal a trans bill when it got this 164 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 3: big backlash. Their federal funding was being threatened as well 165 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 3: for the state. I was not like federal education funding 166 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 3: and all. That's not what happened though, And what happened 167 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:56,599 Speaker 3: I think is actually was a lot more ominous and 168 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 3: a lot more revealing. What passed instead was honest a 169 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 3: second bathroom bill called HB one four to two or 170 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 3: HB two point zero, as a lot of activists and 171 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 3: queer folks in the ground transfer the Ground dubbed it. 172 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 3: And what this bill did was it technically took out 173 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:14,439 Speaker 3: the bathroom ban, but it's put in a bunch of 174 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:16,839 Speaker 3: byzantine provisions about who could use the bathroom wins, so 175 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 3: it would still take a court case for a trans 176 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,439 Speaker 3: woman to go use the women's bathroom. It kept all 177 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 3: the anti labor stuff, and it kept all the non 178 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 3: discrimination stuff struck down for years, like you couldn't pass 179 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 3: local manuscration protections for years. And at this point the 180 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 3: pressure is mounting the Democratic Party for the first time 181 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 3: in most of a decade, their votes in the legislature 182 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 3: actually matter because the Republican they're split between kind of 183 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 3: the capitalists who are hate trains that we're using this 184 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 3: as a wedge issue and now the money's being fucked 185 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 3: with they're ready to repeal it, and some of the 186 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 3: others who are like, no, no, we really are dedicated to 187 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 3: hating trans people. Mistake can burn as long as trans 188 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:56,439 Speaker 3: people's lives are made more miserable. So they have the 189 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 3: votes in their own caucus to pass this. So for 190 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 3: once DEM's had a lot of power and they could 191 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 3: have easily been like no floor or peel or nothing, 192 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 3: and they probably would have gotten it through. They did not. 193 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 3: They sided with the Republicans. They passed this mess that 194 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 3: essentially kept the status quo. It was just barely enough 195 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 3: for the NCAA, who even noted they even know their corporation. 196 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 4: Basically they know it was. 197 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 3: Reluctant that they were, you know, putting the tournament back 198 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 3: in NC, but they did. The governor knew. Governor democratic 199 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 3: governor signed it. I probably mentioned earlier. HB two passed 200 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 3: with two Democratic votes in the first place. This is 201 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 3: like not a new trend of this happening. Heck, anti 202 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 3: queer stuff even well before that would often pass with 203 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 3: Democratic support as well as Republican support, often be signed 204 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 3: by democratic governors, so this is not an entirely new thing. 205 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 3: And this is also a point where you can see 206 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 3: gay ink splitting a bit because gay ink did actually 207 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 3: have actually condemned HB two point zero, but once it 208 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 3: became passed, they either offered tempted statements or they backed down. 209 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:02,959 Speaker 3: And so the US and from HB two wasn't okay. 210 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 3: Back in the day, you know, nine years ago, trans 211 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 3: rights used to be more of a consensus, even among 212 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 3: moderate conservatives, at least basic protections for it. And a 213 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 3: good example was how unpopular HBT was. It was repealed 214 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 3: under all this backlash. It did get a backlash, yeah, 215 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 3: but it wasn't really repealed. And as a matter of fact, 216 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 3: what the far right learned was that when it comes 217 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 3: down to it, the Democrats North Carolina, it turned out 218 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 3: elsewhere will fold if trans rights has made an issue. 219 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, and you can watch everything that 220 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 2: has happened since with trans rights has just been the 221 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 2: Democrats folding over and over and over again and getting 222 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 2: weaker and weaker language until we're in this place now, 223 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 2: you know, Like and I think the thing that is 224 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 2: a little bit different, is it Like you used to 225 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:53,439 Speaker 2: have to like claim you had done something yeah about 226 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 2: the anti trans bill, and now you can just sign 227 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 2: it yeah, and it becomes law. And this is something 228 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 2: that has does played out across the coach, Like there 229 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 2: have been a lot of states where democratic governors have 230 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 2: signed anti trans bills, yes. 231 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 4: Or vita pro trans bills like in California. Yeah. 232 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 2: And you know even in states where like Pritzker, the 233 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 2: governor of Illinois, has been being held up as like 234 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 2: the big pro trans people I've seen. I see like 235 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 2: even trans leftists doing this. And you know, like there 236 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 2: are a lot of things in Illinois that are very 237 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 2: good for trans people because of the weird Pritzker corruption, 238 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 2: his sister is trans. And also the moment the government 239 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 2: was like, oh hey, we're gonna like sort of make 240 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 2: a big show of threatening like healthcare funding, Pritsker just 241 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,079 Speaker 2: folded and let all these hospitals stop providing transcrir to youth, 242 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 2: even though it is literally a violation of Illinois like 243 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 2: of Illinois ANSI discrimination legislation. 244 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, they just back down and refuse to do it. Yeah. 245 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:45,839 Speaker 2: And the way that this starts is that there is 246 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 2: a gap between the rhetoric of someone like Pritzker being like, oh, no, 247 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 2: like we support trans rights. Trans rights are in an 248 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 2: important civil rights issue, and then you watch them like 249 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 2: allow a bunch of hospitals in Illinois to stop providing 250 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:00,439 Speaker 2: care to trans kids. And the place where that ends 251 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 2: is more and more Democrats just straight up voting for 252 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 2: this stuff. 253 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. 254 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,079 Speaker 2: And it's and the Democrats, you know, as you're talking 255 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 2: about with with HB two is like, you know, there 256 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 2: were there were Democratic votes on that one. 257 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, HB one four two especially, Yeah, the compromise, Billy, 258 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 3: but even HB too itself. Yeah, there were there were 259 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 3: Democrats who score that too. 260 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 4: Yeah. 261 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 2: And so this is this is I think the critical 262 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 2: part of this is that, like this stuff only can 263 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 2: happen with the support of the Democrats. And that's why 264 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 2: it's happening. It's because yes, because like and this is 265 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 2: this is something that's incredibly important right now. We're like 266 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 2: all of the ship that is happening, all these Republicans 267 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 2: are doing are hideously unpotty, like thirty percent approval ratings 268 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 2: across the board for like all of this just hideously 269 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 2: hideously hated. The only way it can happen is if 270 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 2: the Democrats go collaborationists inside with the Republicans, and that's 271 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:53,079 Speaker 2: what they're doing now. 272 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 4: Things always need whislims. 273 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're relying on the image of resistance to 274 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 2: distract everyone from the fact that they're helping these policies 275 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 2: go through and if you want to stop them, you 276 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 2: have to stop them from collaborating. 277 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 3: I think I also brings up kind of the third 278 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 3: element in this. You've got the bar always fascist, increasingly 279 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 3: fashist Republican Party. You've got the increasing collaborations Democratic Party, 280 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 3: and especially on queer and trains rights. You have gay 281 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 3: inc which, and I go into some examples in the piece. 282 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 3: After HB two point zero they put out some preferrenctory statements, 283 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 3: but then they turned to gatekeeping, and the ensuing years 284 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 3: they very consistently tried to stifle any activism that was 285 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 3: more radical or more principled to try to get this 286 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 3: stuff off the books, and especially if it came to 287 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 3: holding Democratic officials feet the fire. I literally have an 288 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 3: example in the article that I was physically therefore and 289 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 3: witnessed where a director of the canvass and Equality sees 290 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 3: the mic as it was being passes in candidates to 291 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 3: answer a stronger question and from some transactivists and change 292 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 3: the question to something that didn't actually put any pressure 293 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 3: on them at all, like just kind of absurd, petty 294 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 3: stuff like that. But the coom of effect has been that, 295 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 3: you know, they turned to thinking about their political careers 296 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 3: and their fundraising. And when push comes to shove again 297 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 3: and again, they've shown they won't hold Democrats' feet to 298 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 3: the fire. If anything, they will tell the Trains people 299 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 3: trying to hold their feet the fire to shut up. 300 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 3: So if you know that the lobby, the official lobby 301 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 3: that's supposed to, you know, ostensibly, on some level stand 302 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 3: up for some mild version of trains and queer rights, 303 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 3: will never give someone any shit for breaking ranks. Not 304 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 3: even like we condemn officials so and so and their 305 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 3: bigotry or whatever more we are sorely disappointed in or 306 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 3: anyone of the boiler play things. They won't even go 307 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 3: that far. That's too far for them. So you have 308 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 3: Democrats collaborating and a gay ink structure that has taken 309 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 3: the energy and funding out of lave of the queer activists, 310 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 3: but will absolutely will not fight when Democrats are involved. 311 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 3: So if you're fascist, all you have to do is 312 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 3: get some Democrats involved. 313 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's that's how you give VICHI friends Like 314 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 4: that's yeah. 315 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 3: And honestly, this is it's a question I put to 316 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 3: folks because you know, look, I'm honestly dealing with the 317 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 3: North crownd Democrats. Is one of the things that made 318 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 3: me an anarchist. So yeah, so it's you know, I've 319 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 3: not had any faith in them for a very very 320 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 3: long time. But for folks that you know, kind of 321 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 3: do put a little more energie into electoral processes, I 322 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 3: just you know, a questions the piece I think are 323 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 3: worth asking them, Like what's the point of people who 324 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 3: are just going to support your enemies? 325 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 4: Yeah? What's the point of. 326 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 3: People that you elect, maybe even like get out you 327 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 3: know and dock doors or whatever to get elected, who 328 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 3: then don't do the one thing they're elected to do? 329 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 3: And God asked too for some of the folks who 330 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 3: support some of these gay ink ords, I was like, 331 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 3: if they won't fight, now, what is the point of them? Yeah, 332 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 3: why do they deserve any support from us as a community? 333 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 3: Or is it far past time to look to other alternatives? 334 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 3: There was only lesson hbto taught as well, which is 335 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 3: if you want even the most die hard bigot to 336 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 3: start losing their nerve, to attack their money and their power, 337 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 3: and then you don't stop if so, say all you 338 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 3: have to compromise with a pragmatic solution, You ignore them, 339 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 3: laugh in their faces, do whatever. But you keep pressting 340 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 3: them because that was their thing. HQ too, there was 341 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 3: a really effective campaign to boycott and it did have 342 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 3: a substantial effect. You know, the lovely weapon of vicious 343 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 3: mockery really came in handy, and even the rulgas didn't 344 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 3: like becoming a national laughing stock, so there were less 345 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 3: about how stuff could be fought as well. And the 346 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,479 Speaker 3: more radical history in North Carolina. You know, there are 347 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 3: there are quer radicals here and you know, my city 348 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 3: was hit by a massive hurricane last year and honestly, 349 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 3: it was a lot of US radicals getting out in 350 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:59,199 Speaker 3: the ground that kept things from getting even worse. And 351 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 3: you know, and just folks on the ground pitching in 352 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 3: outside of government structures, not waiting for the official nonprofits 353 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 3: who were either devastated or had not planned for this. 354 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 3: So there are other alternatives, you know, and or heck 355 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 3: that the hell. 356 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 4: I have to remember, I could curse here. 357 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 3: That the fact that civil rights we the low attention 358 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 3: has gone to sitidence and there was a lot of 359 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 3: organizing in those movements. 360 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 4: It's a lot more Miltont than folks. 361 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 3: Remember that also went along three decades of riots and 362 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 3: cities throughout the state before the old order even began. 363 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 4: To budge a little bit. 364 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 3: And the lesson from that North caround Democrats and North 365 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 3: Caunta status quo. And I see throughout the South and 366 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 3: throughout the country it only budges even starts to move 367 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:47,200 Speaker 3: when the cost of continuing the way it is become 368 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 3: far too high. 369 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and our job is to impose that cost. Yes, 370 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 2: because if we don't impose that cost, they're going to 371 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,880 Speaker 2: keep pushing and they are going to continue to write 372 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 2: us out of existence until they have the guns to 373 00:18:58,840 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 2: do it. 374 00:18:59,160 --> 00:18:59,360 Speaker 4: Yeah. 375 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 3: And on that is that is a mentality I think 376 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 3: a lot more people need to need to absorb. And 377 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 3: I think one of the lessons from you know, fighting 378 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 3: the far right at some points for my entire like 379 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 3: adult life basically even a little bit before then in 380 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 3: North Carolina is that the more you fight than the 381 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,439 Speaker 3: weaker they are. But also, and this is this is 382 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 3: something one of the more experience transfernds us South I 383 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:28,120 Speaker 3: know has emphasized, you won't always win, you can always 384 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 3: inflict a cost. And I think a little more like 385 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 3: thinking outside of elections, a little more bloody minded determination 386 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 3: can really come in handy of the sense of like 387 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 3: if our enemies are like, Okay, court rules against us, 388 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 3: We're still pressing the attack. Okay, election goes against us, 389 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 3: We're still pressing the attack. I think we can do 390 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:50,159 Speaker 3: way meaner and way better than they than they do 391 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 3: on that front. Something goes against us, that's nice. We're 392 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 3: still pressing the attack. You know, there's nothing in this 393 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 3: healthscape of an empire we have to abuy by, especially 394 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 3: not in the South. 395 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 396 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, So if something doesn't go our way once, Okay, learn, regroup, redouble, 397 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 3: make sure you inflicted some costs, go out and inflict 398 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 3: more of them. 399 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:11,919 Speaker 4: They're not invincible, trust me. 400 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, another gender is possible. 401 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 4: You just have to go out and fight for exactly. 402 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think on that note, David, where can 403 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 2: people find your work? 404 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,439 Speaker 3: You can find my stuff for trans News Network at 405 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 3: Transnews dot Network, including this most recent piece. And you 406 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 3: can find some of my local reporting as part of 407 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 3: the Ashville Blade co op at Ashville Blade dot com. 408 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 2: Awesome, and y'all at both the trans News Network and 409 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:42,640 Speaker 2: the actual Blade, I've been doing a bunch of absolutely 410 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,120 Speaker 2: incredible work. Thank you, and I encourage you, for one 411 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 2: to support both because ideally the function of journalism is 412 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:53,439 Speaker 2: to be the targeting mechanism of the class and these 413 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 2: these are two groups of working class trans journalists. 414 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 4: To do it and both organizations are worker run. I 415 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 4: should add yep, this. 416 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 2: Has been a get happen here, Go fight them. 417 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 418 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 419 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 1: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 420 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever. 421 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 4: You listen to podcasts. 422 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:21,959 Speaker 1: You can now find sources for it could Happen here, 423 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.