1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:21,316 Speaker 1: Pushkin. What was your mother's experience in the family. So 2 00:00:21,356 --> 00:00:23,516 Speaker 1: your family is from Bengal. 3 00:00:24,116 --> 00:00:28,996 Speaker 2: Yeah, my mother was about twelve years old and she 4 00:00:29,076 --> 00:00:32,716 Speaker 2: was living in the city. She saw all of this 5 00:00:32,836 --> 00:00:36,396 Speaker 2: starvation on the pavements, all of the people coming into 6 00:00:36,396 --> 00:00:39,476 Speaker 2: the city from the villages because there was absolutely nothing 7 00:00:39,556 --> 00:00:43,756 Speaker 2: left in the villages. And I had this question that 8 00:00:43,916 --> 00:00:46,796 Speaker 2: no one seemed to have answered, which was why is 9 00:00:46,836 --> 00:00:49,236 Speaker 2: it that no relief was sent? 10 00:00:50,036 --> 00:00:53,036 Speaker 1: Motus read Mukiji, a writer and historian whose work I 11 00:00:53,076 --> 00:00:56,156 Speaker 1: came across not long ago. I wanted you to read 12 00:00:57,276 --> 00:01:01,556 Speaker 1: a passage from your book. Can you just read the 13 00:01:01,596 --> 00:01:04,436 Speaker 1: first paragraph? I thought it was as a way of 14 00:01:04,476 --> 00:01:07,276 Speaker 1: communicating to people what a famine is. 15 00:01:08,276 --> 00:01:13,716 Speaker 2: In Shahpurabuda, village of the seventeenth Union of Pashkuratana, a 16 00:01:13,796 --> 00:01:18,116 Speaker 2: Muslim weaver was unable to support his family and crazed 17 00:01:18,156 --> 00:01:22,556 Speaker 2: with hunger, wandered away. His wife believed that he had 18 00:01:22,596 --> 00:01:26,756 Speaker 2: drowned himself in the flooded Kashai River. Being unable to 19 00:01:26,756 --> 00:01:30,516 Speaker 2: feed her two young sons for several days, she could 20 00:01:30,596 --> 00:01:34,916 Speaker 2: no longer endure their suffering. She dropped the smaller boy, 21 00:01:35,116 --> 00:01:38,596 Speaker 2: torn from her womb. The sparkle of her eye into 22 00:01:38,636 --> 00:01:49,276 Speaker 2: the Kashai's frothing waters. 23 00:01:50,836 --> 00:01:54,156 Speaker 1: My name is Malcolm Glabo. You're listening to Revisionist History, 24 00:01:54,436 --> 00:01:59,076 Speaker 1: my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This episode is 25 00:01:59,076 --> 00:02:01,556 Speaker 1: about a famine that took place in India in nineteen 26 00:02:01,596 --> 00:02:09,236 Speaker 1: forty three. Famines are the immediate result of things like 27 00:02:09,316 --> 00:02:13,196 Speaker 1: droughts and crop failures, packs of nature, but their cause 28 00:02:13,556 --> 00:02:18,636 Speaker 1: is invariably human wars misguided policies. Right now as I'm 29 00:02:18,676 --> 00:02:23,356 Speaker 1: recording this, Venezuela is facing a malnutrition crisis. A country 30 00:02:23,356 --> 00:02:26,036 Speaker 1: with vast oil wealth in one of the most fertile 31 00:02:26,076 --> 00:02:30,556 Speaker 1: corners of the world doesn't have enough food. Humans cause that, 32 00:02:31,036 --> 00:02:33,796 Speaker 1: not nature. So what was the human cause of the 33 00:02:33,796 --> 00:02:38,076 Speaker 1: Bengal famine of nineteen forty three. I think it was 34 00:02:38,116 --> 00:02:42,916 Speaker 1: a friendship, but that's a much more complicated story that 35 00:02:43,036 --> 00:02:44,756 Speaker 1: begins on the other side of the world. 36 00:02:46,436 --> 00:02:49,636 Speaker 3: It is my great privilege to welcome Sir Charles back 37 00:02:49,676 --> 00:02:52,836 Speaker 3: to our community to present him to the audience in 38 00:02:52,916 --> 00:03:03,236 Speaker 3: Cambridge tonight, mister President bean Price, ladies and gentlemen. I'm 39 00:03:03,316 --> 00:03:08,076 Speaker 3: very pleased, I'm very honored to be here this evening. 40 00:03:09,156 --> 00:03:13,836 Speaker 1: It's nineteen sixty Harvard University. One of England's great post 41 00:03:13,836 --> 00:03:17,556 Speaker 1: war intellectuals, a scientist named C. P. Snow, is giving 42 00:03:17,596 --> 00:03:19,716 Speaker 1: the Godkin Lecture at the Sanders Theater. 43 00:03:20,436 --> 00:03:23,876 Speaker 3: Coming to Harvard, I felt as I felt before, that 44 00:03:24,476 --> 00:03:27,916 Speaker 3: in many ways this is the most splendid university I 45 00:03:27,956 --> 00:03:32,036 Speaker 3: ever set foot in, and I don't feel the faintly 46 00:03:32,076 --> 00:03:37,956 Speaker 3: apologetic quiver that I get at some American institutions, which 47 00:03:39,196 --> 00:03:43,636 Speaker 3: I can only admire as a distant spectator, and one 48 00:03:43,676 --> 00:03:47,356 Speaker 3: for which I feel, sometimes happily that I have no responsibility. 49 00:03:51,676 --> 00:03:55,356 Speaker 1: Snow was a physicist by training, a high ranking scientist 50 00:03:55,396 --> 00:03:58,196 Speaker 1: in the British government during the Second World War, then 51 00:03:58,196 --> 00:04:01,276 Speaker 1: a best selling novelist. Back when the Nazis thought they 52 00:04:01,316 --> 00:04:03,396 Speaker 1: were going to win the war, they made a list 53 00:04:03,436 --> 00:04:05,676 Speaker 1: of twenty eight hundred people they were going to hand 54 00:04:05,676 --> 00:04:09,556 Speaker 1: over to the Gestapo. The minute they invaded, England was 55 00:04:09,596 --> 00:04:14,116 Speaker 1: on the list. In the intervening years, Snow's reputation has grown. 56 00:04:14,916 --> 00:04:18,276 Speaker 1: The Sanders Theater was packed, his lecture was so long 57 00:04:18,356 --> 00:04:20,756 Speaker 1: it had to be broken up over three days and 58 00:04:20,876 --> 00:04:25,796 Speaker 1: was broadcast live on television. But he does something unexpected. 59 00:04:26,316 --> 00:04:29,156 Speaker 1: He devotes fully half of his speech to one person, 60 00:04:29,796 --> 00:04:32,636 Speaker 1: someone whom I'm guessing few Americans had ever heard of. 61 00:04:34,916 --> 00:04:39,636 Speaker 1: Frederick A. Linderman born April fifth, eighteen eighty six died 62 00:04:39,756 --> 00:04:44,716 Speaker 1: July third, nineteen fifty seven, otherwise known as Lord Churwell. 63 00:04:45,956 --> 00:04:51,556 Speaker 3: Lindermann was by ennions a very remarkable and a very 64 00:04:51,596 --> 00:04:55,356 Speaker 3: strange man. He was a real heavyweight of personality. 65 00:04:56,196 --> 00:04:59,156 Speaker 1: Remember Snow's a novelist, a student of character. 66 00:04:59,996 --> 00:05:04,476 Speaker 3: Linderman was quite un English. I almost thought if you 67 00:05:04,516 --> 00:05:06,116 Speaker 3: met him in middle Age, would have thought he was 68 00:05:06,156 --> 00:05:09,436 Speaker 3: the kind of Central European business man that when you 69 00:05:09,516 --> 00:05:13,036 Speaker 3: used to meet in the more expensive hotels in Italy. 70 00:05:13,916 --> 00:05:19,636 Speaker 3: He was heavy featured, pallid all, was very correctly dressed. 71 00:05:20,356 --> 00:05:23,556 Speaker 3: He spoke German at least as well as he did English, 72 00:05:23,596 --> 00:05:26,556 Speaker 3: and indeed under his English there was a tone of 73 00:05:26,636 --> 00:05:29,556 Speaker 3: German if you could hear him at all, because he 74 00:05:29,596 --> 00:05:32,596 Speaker 3: always mumbled in an extraordinarily constricted fashion. 75 00:05:33,916 --> 00:05:36,876 Speaker 1: Snow is obsessed with Linderman. That's the first thing that 76 00:05:36,916 --> 00:05:40,556 Speaker 1: comes across in the lecture. Frederick Lindeman was the kind 77 00:05:40,556 --> 00:05:44,596 Speaker 1: of man who obsessed people. People talked about Linderman, gossiped 78 00:05:44,596 --> 00:05:48,036 Speaker 1: about him, gave speeches about him. I got obsessed with him. 79 00:05:48,116 --> 00:05:50,956 Speaker 1: Last summer, and by the time my Lindomania was over, 80 00:05:51,316 --> 00:05:54,596 Speaker 1: I'd read six books about him, six and I think 81 00:05:54,636 --> 00:05:56,996 Speaker 1: I just scratched the surface about him. 82 00:05:57,036 --> 00:06:02,636 Speaker 3: There hung a kind of atmosphere of indefinable malaise. You 83 00:06:02,716 --> 00:06:05,676 Speaker 3: felt that he didn't understand his own life well, and 84 00:06:05,716 --> 00:06:08,796 Speaker 3: he wasn't very good at coping with the major thing. 85 00:06:09,116 --> 00:06:12,236 Speaker 3: His family was ven a mercy wish, harsh tongue. They 86 00:06:12,236 --> 00:06:16,436 Speaker 3: had a malicious, sadistic sense of humor. But nevertheless you 87 00:06:16,516 --> 00:06:20,396 Speaker 3: felt that somehow he was lost. And I said he 88 00:06:20,436 --> 00:06:22,956 Speaker 3: was a figure and made a novelist. 89 00:06:23,076 --> 00:06:31,876 Speaker 1: Fingers Ith Lindermann was born in Germany. His father was 90 00:06:31,876 --> 00:06:35,436 Speaker 1: a wealthy German engineer. His mother was an American heiress 91 00:06:36,356 --> 00:06:39,356 Speaker 1: like C. P. Snow. He was also a physicist and 92 00:06:39,396 --> 00:06:42,516 Speaker 1: got his PhD in Berlin just before the First World War, 93 00:06:42,716 --> 00:06:44,876 Speaker 1: at a time when Germany was the center of the 94 00:06:44,916 --> 00:06:49,596 Speaker 1: world in physics. His thesis adviser compared his mind to 95 00:06:49,636 --> 00:06:54,796 Speaker 1: that of Isaac Newton. He was a captivating conversationalist, a 96 00:06:54,916 --> 00:06:59,236 Speaker 1: champion tennis player. He dressed like a nineteenth century count. 97 00:06:59,716 --> 00:07:02,756 Speaker 1: He was a generalist who knew more than most specialists. 98 00:07:03,796 --> 00:07:07,996 Speaker 1: He could demolish anyone in an argument. Once, after Lindermann 99 00:07:08,036 --> 00:07:10,916 Speaker 1: had taken a post at Oxford, Albert Einstein came to 100 00:07:10,956 --> 00:07:14,956 Speaker 1: a faculty dinner and afterwards all the young physicists gathered 101 00:07:14,956 --> 00:07:17,876 Speaker 1: around Einstein as you would expect them to, and their 102 00:07:17,876 --> 00:07:21,716 Speaker 1: first question was what do you think of Lindermann. That 103 00:07:21,996 --> 00:07:24,956 Speaker 1: was what they wanted to know. Another night, at dinner, 104 00:07:25,156 --> 00:07:29,076 Speaker 1: Einstein talked about some mathematical proposition for which he'd never 105 00:07:29,116 --> 00:07:31,556 Speaker 1: been able to come up with a proof. The next 106 00:07:31,596 --> 00:07:35,476 Speaker 1: day Lindermann casually mentioned that he had the answer. He 107 00:07:35,516 --> 00:07:38,756 Speaker 1: figured it out in his bathtub. You can see why 108 00:07:38,796 --> 00:07:43,676 Speaker 1: everyone was so obsessed with him. 109 00:07:43,836 --> 00:07:47,396 Speaker 4: He impressed us immensely because he was very much the 110 00:07:47,476 --> 00:07:48,276 Speaker 4: man of the world. 111 00:07:48,796 --> 00:07:50,956 Speaker 1: This is a friend of his, George Thompson. 112 00:07:51,196 --> 00:07:55,516 Speaker 4: He was a striking person to look at, tall, slim, dark, 113 00:07:56,676 --> 00:07:59,116 Speaker 4: a young kind. People said he looked like Mephistopheles. I 114 00:07:59,116 --> 00:08:02,276 Speaker 4: think this is that's quite fair to him. I think 115 00:08:02,316 --> 00:08:07,516 Speaker 4: he was the most exciting person to talk physics to 116 00:08:07,876 --> 00:08:08,996 Speaker 4: that I have ever talked to. 117 00:08:09,916 --> 00:08:13,076 Speaker 1: Even Linderman's valet sung his praises when he was interviewed 118 00:08:13,076 --> 00:08:13,996 Speaker 1: by the BBC. 119 00:08:13,956 --> 00:08:17,756 Speaker 5: In thirty two years so closely with him, never once 120 00:08:17,996 --> 00:08:25,076 Speaker 5: seen anything slightly even remotely suggesting impropriety. The one was 121 00:08:25,156 --> 00:08:27,876 Speaker 5: occasion when he was showing some films to a lady 122 00:08:28,996 --> 00:08:31,356 Speaker 5: and he was the spy, and he walked behind the 123 00:08:31,356 --> 00:08:32,476 Speaker 5: curtain to mop his brew. 124 00:08:33,876 --> 00:08:37,916 Speaker 1: But Linderman was also profoundly eccentric. He played tennis with 125 00:08:37,956 --> 00:08:41,236 Speaker 1: a shirt button to the neck, long sleeves fastened to 126 00:08:41,276 --> 00:08:45,636 Speaker 1: the wrist, thick black rib socks, and white boots. People 127 00:08:45,676 --> 00:08:50,196 Speaker 1: who wore shorts disgusted him. Linderman's family was eccentric as well. 128 00:08:50,636 --> 00:08:52,796 Speaker 1: He had a brother named Seppi, who lived in style 129 00:08:52,836 --> 00:08:56,676 Speaker 1: on the Riviera with two Rose royces. One was white 130 00:08:56,876 --> 00:08:59,436 Speaker 1: and driven by a black man, the other was black 131 00:08:59,796 --> 00:09:02,516 Speaker 1: and chauffeured by an albino. I'm not making that up. 132 00:09:03,236 --> 00:09:06,476 Speaker 1: In his lecture, Seep Snow spends an unusual amount of 133 00:09:06,556 --> 00:09:08,876 Speaker 1: time just talking about Linderman's diet. 134 00:09:09,756 --> 00:09:13,076 Speaker 3: He was the most cranky of all vegetarians. He wasn't 135 00:09:13,076 --> 00:09:17,796 Speaker 3: only a vegetarian, but he would only eat very minute 136 00:09:18,636 --> 00:09:21,876 Speaker 3: fractions of what you might regard as a vegetarian diet, 137 00:09:21,916 --> 00:09:25,876 Speaker 3: and he lived mainly on cheese, what the whites of eggs, 138 00:09:26,036 --> 00:09:31,396 Speaker 3: the yoaks being apparently two animal olive oil and rites. 139 00:09:36,156 --> 00:09:38,796 Speaker 1: During the Second World War, there was hardly a drop 140 00:09:38,796 --> 00:09:42,156 Speaker 1: of olive oil in England, and Lindenman got his brother, Charles, 141 00:09:42,436 --> 00:09:45,156 Speaker 1: who was serving in the British embassy in Washington, to 142 00:09:45,196 --> 00:09:47,436 Speaker 1: put a case of olive oil in the diplomatic pouch 143 00:09:47,476 --> 00:09:51,916 Speaker 1: at regular intervals to be flown back to London. At 144 00:09:51,956 --> 00:09:55,156 Speaker 1: one point, when the war is getting intense, his brother 145 00:09:55,276 --> 00:09:59,636 Speaker 1: doesn't send him enough oil. Lindenman goes ballistic, tell Charles, 146 00:09:59,676 --> 00:10:02,396 Speaker 1: I can only suppose that he attaches no value to 147 00:10:02,436 --> 00:10:03,916 Speaker 1: what I am trying to do in the war effort, 148 00:10:04,316 --> 00:10:06,476 Speaker 1: that he would as soon have me go to bed, 149 00:10:07,396 --> 00:10:09,596 Speaker 1: and that is what I shall have to do unless 150 00:10:09,596 --> 00:10:15,156 Speaker 1: he sends me more olive oil than Europe is burning. 151 00:10:15,796 --> 00:10:21,356 Speaker 1: That's what's on his mind. Lindaman was thin skinned, defensive. 152 00:10:21,876 --> 00:10:24,796 Speaker 1: He'd never admit when he was wrong. He'd never change 153 00:10:24,796 --> 00:10:27,116 Speaker 1: his mind once it was made up. He thought he 154 00:10:27,196 --> 00:10:30,636 Speaker 1: was an expert on everything, even when he wasn't. His 155 00:10:30,756 --> 00:10:33,516 Speaker 1: friend Roy Harrad once wrote of him, he would not 156 00:10:33,676 --> 00:10:36,636 Speaker 1: shrink from using an argument which he knew to be wrong, 157 00:10:37,156 --> 00:10:39,396 Speaker 1: if by so doing he could tie up one of 158 00:10:39,396 --> 00:10:49,396 Speaker 1: his professional opponents. That was his friend, saying that CP 159 00:10:49,556 --> 00:10:52,356 Speaker 1: snow remembers one New Year's Day with Lindaman in Oxford. 160 00:10:52,996 --> 00:10:56,476 Speaker 1: The British Crown had just published its honors list, people 161 00:10:56,516 --> 00:10:59,156 Speaker 1: who were being recognized with knighthoods and ladyships. 162 00:10:59,916 --> 00:11:03,316 Speaker 3: I remarked innocently enough that the English honors list must 163 00:11:03,356 --> 00:11:06,876 Speaker 3: give much more pain than pleasure, because obvious to the 164 00:11:06,876 --> 00:11:09,476 Speaker 3: people who were left out, a much greater number of 165 00:11:09,476 --> 00:11:13,516 Speaker 3: the people who were in. And Linderman's face lit up. 166 00:11:13,756 --> 00:11:16,716 Speaker 3: He got a very somber, heavy face with very sad 167 00:11:16,796 --> 00:11:20,916 Speaker 3: brown eyes. Well, these brown eyes sparkle with savagely, and 168 00:11:20,996 --> 00:11:24,276 Speaker 3: he said, of course it is. It wouldn't be any 169 00:11:24,356 --> 00:11:26,436 Speaker 3: use getting an award if one didn't think of all 170 00:11:26,476 --> 00:11:28,756 Speaker 3: the people who were miserable because they hadn't managed it. 171 00:11:28,836 --> 00:11:33,916 Speaker 1: Oh, here's what another friend said of him. He was 172 00:11:33,996 --> 00:11:37,196 Speaker 1: lacking in the bond of human sympathy for every chance 173 00:11:37,236 --> 00:11:43,036 Speaker 1: person who was not brought into a personal relationship with him. 174 00:11:43,076 --> 00:11:46,556 Speaker 1: I think that's the crucial fact about Linderman. One time 175 00:11:46,596 --> 00:11:49,356 Speaker 1: he's asked for his definition of morality, and he answers, 176 00:11:49,716 --> 00:11:53,476 Speaker 1: I define a moral action as one that brings advantage 177 00:11:53,516 --> 00:11:58,156 Speaker 1: to my friends. Frederick Linderman was a man who put 178 00:11:58,196 --> 00:12:02,436 Speaker 1: his friends first, to the exclusion of all other moral considerations. 179 00:12:02,676 --> 00:12:05,956 Speaker 1: Now why does that matter? Why would CP snow devote 180 00:12:05,996 --> 00:12:08,756 Speaker 1: three days to this man whom few people in the 181 00:12:08,756 --> 00:12:12,956 Speaker 1: audience had ever heard of? Because of who Frederick Lindemann's 182 00:12:13,156 --> 00:12:17,756 Speaker 1: best friend was. The man who defined a moral action 183 00:12:17,996 --> 00:12:21,636 Speaker 1: as one that brings advantage to my friends was best 184 00:12:21,636 --> 00:12:23,676 Speaker 1: friends with Winston Churchill. 185 00:12:24,236 --> 00:12:28,196 Speaker 4: We are the masters of our fate. That the task 186 00:12:28,316 --> 00:12:31,036 Speaker 4: which han't been set us is not above our strength, 187 00:12:31,876 --> 00:12:34,356 Speaker 4: that it's pangs and toils are. 188 00:12:34,276 --> 00:12:35,876 Speaker 5: Not beyond our endurance. 189 00:12:37,836 --> 00:12:40,716 Speaker 1: I'm guessing you think of Churchill as a hero, the 190 00:12:40,756 --> 00:12:44,156 Speaker 1: man who bravely led the fight against Adolf Hitler. But 191 00:12:44,236 --> 00:12:47,996 Speaker 1: once I learned about his friend, I don't know. Churchill 192 00:12:47,996 --> 00:12:49,116 Speaker 1: will never be the same for me. 193 00:12:50,236 --> 00:12:53,556 Speaker 3: People have often speculated on why this friendship. I mean, 194 00:12:53,996 --> 00:12:59,716 Speaker 3: an extremely cranky, non smoking, non drinking vegetarian doesn't sound 195 00:12:59,756 --> 00:13:05,796 Speaker 3: the obvious soul mate for also, of course, so Winston. 196 00:13:05,836 --> 00:13:10,156 Speaker 3: I can only answer that. But to give any sense suggestion, 197 00:13:10,236 --> 00:13:12,276 Speaker 3: and you would have to know both men not only well, 198 00:13:12,316 --> 00:13:14,476 Speaker 3: but as well as they knew each other. One can 199 00:13:14,556 --> 00:13:16,916 Speaker 3: make guesses, But why any. 200 00:13:16,676 --> 00:13:22,596 Speaker 1: Friendship Linderman and Churchill met each other in nineteen twenty 201 00:13:22,596 --> 00:13:25,116 Speaker 1: one at a dinner in London. It was arranged by 202 00:13:25,116 --> 00:13:30,356 Speaker 1: the Duke and Duchess of Westminster. Linderman would always say 203 00:13:30,356 --> 00:13:32,316 Speaker 1: that only two people in the world were smarter than 204 00:13:32,356 --> 00:13:36,956 Speaker 1: he was Einstein, of course, and Churchill and Churchill felt 205 00:13:36,996 --> 00:13:39,756 Speaker 1: the same way. If you read some of the letters 206 00:13:39,796 --> 00:13:44,916 Speaker 1: Churchill writes Linderman, they're almost worshipful. The psychologist Daniel Wegner 207 00:13:45,156 --> 00:13:48,876 Speaker 1: has this beautiful concept called transactive memory, which is the 208 00:13:48,876 --> 00:13:52,756 Speaker 1: observation that we don't just store information in our minds 209 00:13:52,956 --> 00:13:57,156 Speaker 1: or in specific places. We store memories and understanding in 210 00:13:57,196 --> 00:14:00,196 Speaker 1: the minds of the people we love. You don't need 211 00:14:00,236 --> 00:14:03,996 Speaker 1: to remember your child's emotional relationship to her teacher because 212 00:14:04,036 --> 00:14:06,996 Speaker 1: you know your wife will. You don't have to remember 213 00:14:07,196 --> 00:14:09,956 Speaker 1: how to work the remote because you know your daughter will. 214 00:14:10,356 --> 00:14:14,796 Speaker 1: That's transactive memory. Little bits of ourselves reside in other 215 00:14:14,836 --> 00:14:20,716 Speaker 1: people's minds. You know, when one half of a long 216 00:14:20,756 --> 00:14:24,036 Speaker 1: marriage dies and the surviving partner says that some part 217 00:14:24,036 --> 00:14:27,036 Speaker 1: of them has died along with her spouse. Wegner has 218 00:14:27,076 --> 00:14:31,236 Speaker 1: a heartbreaking riff about how that is actually true. When 219 00:14:31,236 --> 00:14:34,516 Speaker 1: your partner dies, everything that you have stored in your 220 00:14:34,596 --> 00:14:39,156 Speaker 1: partner's brain dies along with them. Churchill is in a 221 00:14:39,196 --> 00:14:43,916 Speaker 1: transactive relationship with Lindemann. Think about it. Churchill is a 222 00:14:43,916 --> 00:14:46,996 Speaker 1: man of the big picture, a visionary. He is a 223 00:14:46,996 --> 00:14:51,436 Speaker 1: deep intuitive understanding of human psychology and history. But he 224 00:14:51,516 --> 00:14:55,516 Speaker 1: struggles with depression. He has mood swings. He's impulsive, he's 225 00:14:55,556 --> 00:14:58,756 Speaker 1: a gambler. He has no head for figures. Throughout his 226 00:14:58,796 --> 00:15:02,396 Speaker 1: life he's always losing huge amounts of money on foolish investments. 227 00:15:03,196 --> 00:15:06,476 Speaker 1: In nineteen thirty five, Churchill spent the modern equivalent of 228 00:15:06,636 --> 00:15:11,516 Speaker 1: sixty two thousand dollars on on Champagne in one year. 229 00:15:12,276 --> 00:15:15,076 Speaker 1: Within a month of becoming Prime Minister, he was broke, 230 00:15:15,276 --> 00:15:19,636 Speaker 1: literally broke. Here we have a man of volatile temperament 231 00:15:19,916 --> 00:15:22,716 Speaker 1: with no way to bring order to his life. So 232 00:15:22,876 --> 00:15:27,796 Speaker 1: who does he become best friends with? Frederick Lindemann. Someone disciplined, 233 00:15:28,116 --> 00:15:32,556 Speaker 1: almost fanatically consistent, someone who ate the same three things 234 00:15:32,596 --> 00:15:35,956 Speaker 1: every meal of every day. Someone so naturally at home 235 00:15:35,996 --> 00:15:38,476 Speaker 1: in the world of numbers that, even as a child 236 00:15:38,556 --> 00:15:41,796 Speaker 1: he would read newspapers and recite back reams and reams 237 00:15:41,796 --> 00:15:48,476 Speaker 1: of statistics from memory. When Churchill becomes Prime Minister in 238 00:15:48,556 --> 00:15:51,876 Speaker 1: nineteen forty, just after the war breaks out. He takes 239 00:15:51,916 --> 00:15:55,716 Speaker 1: Lindeman with him, first as scientific advisor, then he gets 240 00:15:55,796 --> 00:15:58,796 Speaker 1: him a job in the war cabinet as the Paymaster General, 241 00:15:59,516 --> 00:16:02,756 Speaker 1: and Lindenman becomes a kind of gatekeeper to Churchill's mind. 242 00:16:03,676 --> 00:16:06,796 Speaker 1: Over the course of the war. He writes Churchill two 243 00:16:06,796 --> 00:16:11,276 Speaker 1: thousand memos, basically one a day, double spaced, large print, 244 00:16:11,716 --> 00:16:14,836 Speaker 1: no more than a page or two, reducing some complicated 245 00:16:14,956 --> 00:16:20,036 Speaker 1: question to its essence. Lindenman travels with Churchill to international conferences. 246 00:16:20,316 --> 00:16:23,556 Speaker 1: He dines with him. Lindenman never drinks unless he's eating 247 00:16:23,556 --> 00:16:26,756 Speaker 1: with Churchill, who's a big drinker. Then he drinks. He 248 00:16:26,796 --> 00:16:30,036 Speaker 1: goes to Churchill's country house on the weekends. People spot 249 00:16:30,076 --> 00:16:32,076 Speaker 1: them at three in the morning, sitting by the fire 250 00:16:32,556 --> 00:16:37,436 Speaker 1: reading the newspaper together. One time, in Parliament, another MP 251 00:16:37,716 --> 00:16:41,876 Speaker 1: criticizes Lindermann, and Churchill goes crazy. He says, love me, 252 00:16:42,236 --> 00:16:44,596 Speaker 1: love my dog, and if you don't love my dog, 253 00:16:44,676 --> 00:16:47,676 Speaker 1: you damn well can't love me. And that's high praise, 254 00:16:48,116 --> 00:16:51,516 Speaker 1: because remember, to an Englishman of that generation, the only 255 00:16:51,556 --> 00:16:54,956 Speaker 1: living creature you're allowed to show affection for is your dog. 256 00:17:01,396 --> 00:17:05,276 Speaker 3: Drew occurred in nineteen forty two, and it occurred over 257 00:17:05,316 --> 00:17:06,396 Speaker 3: a strategic bombing. 258 00:17:07,196 --> 00:17:10,356 Speaker 1: The heart of Snow's lecture is about an argument that 259 00:17:10,396 --> 00:17:14,116 Speaker 1: took place at the highest reaches of British government. The 260 00:17:14,236 --> 00:17:16,956 Speaker 1: question was what was the best use of the Royal 261 00:17:17,036 --> 00:17:18,636 Speaker 1: Air Force against the Germans? 262 00:17:19,196 --> 00:17:21,476 Speaker 3: And it was quite right that the leaders of the 263 00:17:21,476 --> 00:17:25,316 Speaker 3: West should be looking for anything which would play a 264 00:17:25,436 --> 00:17:26,996 Speaker 3: serious part in the war. 265 00:17:27,916 --> 00:17:30,596 Speaker 1: One school of thoughts says, let's use our bombers to 266 00:17:30,596 --> 00:17:35,516 Speaker 1: support military activities, protecting ships against German U boats, destroying 267 00:17:35,556 --> 00:17:39,396 Speaker 1: German factories. The other school of thought argues that bombing 268 00:17:39,436 --> 00:17:43,076 Speaker 1: ought to serve a bigger strategic purpose. In other words, 269 00:17:43,316 --> 00:17:46,316 Speaker 1: let's use bombing to break the will of the German people. 270 00:17:46,956 --> 00:17:49,796 Speaker 1: Let's make their lives so miserable that they give up. 271 00:17:53,836 --> 00:17:57,356 Speaker 1: The UK's military leadership was fanatical about the virtues of 272 00:17:57,396 --> 00:18:01,796 Speaker 1: strategic bombing, but Churchill was on the fence. So what 273 00:18:01,836 --> 00:18:04,756 Speaker 1: did he do? He turned to Lindenman, of course, and 274 00:18:04,796 --> 00:18:08,716 Speaker 1: asked Lindemann to do a formal study of strategic bombing's effectiveness. 275 00:18:09,356 --> 00:18:12,596 Speaker 1: That's the sort of analytical question Churchill had always turned 276 00:18:12,596 --> 00:18:15,876 Speaker 1: over to his best friend and Linnemann says, let's look 277 00:18:15,876 --> 00:18:18,916 Speaker 1: at the English cities of Hull and Birmingham, both of 278 00:18:18,956 --> 00:18:22,556 Speaker 1: which were bombed heavily by the Germans. He analyzes the data, 279 00:18:22,996 --> 00:18:26,796 Speaker 1: then writes one of his famous memos to Churchill. I'm 280 00:18:26,876 --> 00:18:32,036 Speaker 1: quoting now from Lineman's memmo. Investigation seems to show that 281 00:18:32,156 --> 00:18:37,316 Speaker 1: having one's house demolished is most dangerous to morale. People 282 00:18:37,356 --> 00:18:39,356 Speaker 1: seem to mind it more than having their friends or 283 00:18:39,356 --> 00:18:43,356 Speaker 1: even relatives killed. At Hull, signs of strain were evident. 284 00:18:43,676 --> 00:18:47,076 Speaker 1: Though only one tenth of the homes were demolished. On 285 00:18:47,116 --> 00:18:49,436 Speaker 1: the above figures, we could do as much harm to 286 00:18:49,476 --> 00:18:53,076 Speaker 1: each of the fifty eight principal German towns. There seems 287 00:18:53,196 --> 00:18:56,036 Speaker 1: little doubt that this would break the spirit of the 288 00:18:56,076 --> 00:19:03,396 Speaker 1: German people. Strategic bombing is about making an all out 289 00:19:03,436 --> 00:19:07,196 Speaker 1: assault on the homes and the lives of German civilians, 290 00:19:07,796 --> 00:19:12,836 Speaker 1: not soldiers, innocent people. There's a moment in Snow's speech 291 00:19:12,996 --> 00:19:16,196 Speaker 1: when he stops because he can't believe, with the benefit 292 00:19:16,236 --> 00:19:19,156 Speaker 1: of fifteen years hindsight, that he was part of a 293 00:19:19,196 --> 00:19:21,796 Speaker 1: government that thought that this was the right thing to do. 294 00:19:22,716 --> 00:19:26,116 Speaker 3: What our descendants will think of us, I don't know 295 00:19:26,796 --> 00:19:31,076 Speaker 3: Will they think, as Roger Williams said of some Indians, 296 00:19:31,076 --> 00:19:35,756 Speaker 3: that we were wolves with the minds of men? Will 297 00:19:35,796 --> 00:19:38,036 Speaker 3: they think we resigned our humanity? 298 00:19:38,076 --> 00:19:41,716 Speaker 1: Eh? But you won't find any of those kinds of 299 00:19:41,716 --> 00:19:46,396 Speaker 1: considerations in Linenman's memo to Churchill. It's very matter of fact. 300 00:19:46,676 --> 00:19:50,916 Speaker 1: It's all about what the data says, except for one 301 00:19:50,956 --> 00:19:58,236 Speaker 1: thing that's not what the data says. The Birmingham Hall 302 00:19:58,276 --> 00:20:02,516 Speaker 1: study reached the exact opposite conclusion that Linnenmann did. It 303 00:20:02,676 --> 00:20:05,516 Speaker 1: said that, and I'm quoting in neither town. Was there 304 00:20:05,636 --> 00:20:08,436 Speaker 1: any evidence of panic resulting from either a series of 305 00:20:08,516 --> 00:20:15,916 Speaker 1: raids or from a single rate. Lindenman also makes estimates 306 00:20:16,076 --> 00:20:19,636 Speaker 1: on how many German homes the British could destroy. Other 307 00:20:19,676 --> 00:20:23,236 Speaker 1: experts in the government critics of strategic bombing point out 308 00:20:23,276 --> 00:20:28,636 Speaker 1: immediately that Lindemann's numbers are ridiculous, five or six times 309 00:20:28,676 --> 00:20:33,836 Speaker 1: too high, based on obvious errors. Doesn't matter. Remember what 310 00:20:33,956 --> 00:20:37,476 Speaker 1: one of Lindenman's friends said, he would not shrink from 311 00:20:37,596 --> 00:20:40,476 Speaker 1: using an argument which he knew to be wrong, if 312 00:20:40,516 --> 00:20:42,556 Speaker 1: by so doing he could tie up one of his 313 00:20:42,676 --> 00:20:48,756 Speaker 1: professional opponents. Lindenman wanted strategic bombing, so Churchill went ahead 314 00:20:49,036 --> 00:20:50,876 Speaker 1: and ordered the bombing of German cities. 315 00:20:52,036 --> 00:20:54,596 Speaker 3: No one had ever thought how these bomber forces were 316 00:20:54,596 --> 00:20:57,196 Speaker 3: really to be used. It was just an act of faith. 317 00:20:57,236 --> 00:21:00,316 Speaker 3: This was a way to fight a war. And I 318 00:21:00,316 --> 00:21:03,436 Speaker 3: think it's fair to say that Lindermann was with as 319 00:21:03,556 --> 00:21:08,316 Speaker 3: usual extreme intensity, as committed to this faith as any 320 00:21:08,316 --> 00:21:08,996 Speaker 3: men in England. 321 00:21:11,156 --> 00:21:15,356 Speaker 1: So what happened? Most historians agree that strategic bombing was 322 00:21:15,396 --> 00:21:19,836 Speaker 1: a disaster. One hundred and sixty thousand US and English 323 00:21:19,836 --> 00:21:24,076 Speaker 1: airmen and hundreds of thousands of German civilians were killed 324 00:21:24,116 --> 00:21:27,436 Speaker 1: in those bombing campaigns. Many of Europe's most beautiful cities 325 00:21:27,476 --> 00:21:32,116 Speaker 1: were destroyed, and German morale didn't crack. The Germans fought 326 00:21:32,116 --> 00:21:35,796 Speaker 1: to the bitter end. After the war, the Nobel Prize 327 00:21:35,796 --> 00:21:39,636 Speaker 1: winning physicist Patrick Blackett wrote a devastating essay where he 328 00:21:39,676 --> 00:21:42,596 Speaker 1: said that the war could have been won six months 329 00:21:42,676 --> 00:21:45,636 Speaker 1: or even a year earlier, if only the British should 330 00:21:45,716 --> 00:21:50,116 Speaker 1: use their bombers more intelligently. There should have been a 331 00:21:50,196 --> 00:21:53,996 Speaker 1: proper debate about strategic bombing in the British war. Cabinet 332 00:21:54,436 --> 00:21:59,116 Speaker 1: numbers should have been scrutinized, hard questions should have been asked. 333 00:21:59,236 --> 00:22:02,116 Speaker 1: But how can you have a real debate against Churchill's 334 00:22:02,116 --> 00:22:06,916 Speaker 1: best friend. Friendship comes first. That's the thing that makes 335 00:22:06,956 --> 00:22:11,356 Speaker 1: friendship so powerful and beautiful, except when your friend is 336 00:22:11,356 --> 00:22:14,436 Speaker 1: feeding you falsehoods and your loyalty to him means that 337 00:22:14,516 --> 00:22:16,276 Speaker 1: you can't see them. 338 00:22:17,436 --> 00:22:21,196 Speaker 2: Cherwell was a loner. He had no one in his 339 00:22:21,316 --> 00:22:23,356 Speaker 2: life he loved except I think Churchill. 340 00:22:23,916 --> 00:22:27,436 Speaker 1: Motusary Mukiji. She's the voice you heard at the beginning 341 00:22:27,436 --> 00:22:31,356 Speaker 1: of this episode talking about a famine in India. She's 342 00:22:31,356 --> 00:22:33,836 Speaker 1: a historian who wrote a book a few years ago 343 00:22:33,916 --> 00:22:37,676 Speaker 1: called Churchill's Secret War. It's about what happened in the 344 00:22:37,716 --> 00:22:41,636 Speaker 1: Indian province of Bengal during the war. The Cherwell she 345 00:22:41,716 --> 00:22:45,836 Speaker 1: is referring to is Frederick Lindeman. In nineteen forty one, 346 00:22:46,156 --> 00:22:50,996 Speaker 1: Churchill gave him a peerage, Lord Cherwell. Mukuji prefers to 347 00:22:51,036 --> 00:22:54,036 Speaker 1: call him by his formal name. When I got obsessed 348 00:22:54,076 --> 00:22:56,956 Speaker 1: with Lindenman, Mukujie's book was the last one I read 349 00:22:57,676 --> 00:23:00,876 Speaker 1: and maybe the most important. If you think of C. P. 350 00:23:01,116 --> 00:23:05,076 Speaker 1: Snow's lecture as chapter one in the Frederick Lindeman Winston 351 00:23:05,156 --> 00:23:09,916 Speaker 1: Churchill Love Story, Mukerjee's book is the final pressing chapter 352 00:23:10,636 --> 00:23:11,036 Speaker 1: It was. 353 00:23:10,956 --> 00:23:14,396 Speaker 2: Clearly the only person he ever loved in his life. 354 00:23:14,436 --> 00:23:15,436 Speaker 2: There was no one else. 355 00:23:16,236 --> 00:23:19,276 Speaker 1: India was still a British colony during the war, governed 356 00:23:19,316 --> 00:23:23,556 Speaker 1: by a viceroy sent from England. Like all British colonial possessions, 357 00:23:24,036 --> 00:23:26,636 Speaker 1: India was a major part of the war effort. They 358 00:23:26,676 --> 00:23:30,476 Speaker 1: exported food for the Allies. They sent hundreds of thousands 359 00:23:30,476 --> 00:23:31,956 Speaker 1: of soldiers to fight the Germans. 360 00:23:32,396 --> 00:23:38,156 Speaker 2: At the entire industrial production, the entire cloth production, wool, silk, timber, 361 00:23:38,476 --> 00:23:40,356 Speaker 2: you name it, it was being used for the war. 362 00:23:42,636 --> 00:23:46,476 Speaker 1: In wartime, countries operate right at the brink, and in 363 00:23:46,556 --> 00:23:49,756 Speaker 1: late nineteen forty two, there's a kind of perfect storm 364 00:23:49,756 --> 00:23:53,876 Speaker 1: in India's northeastern corner that pushes the region over the edge. 365 00:23:55,316 --> 00:23:58,996 Speaker 1: First of all, the Japanese capture Burma, which sits on 366 00:23:59,076 --> 00:24:03,036 Speaker 1: India's northeastern border. India used to import rice from Burma. 367 00:24:03,356 --> 00:24:07,196 Speaker 1: Now they can't. The British are terrified that japan will 368 00:24:07,196 --> 00:24:10,316 Speaker 1: invade India until they order a score earth policy. All 369 00:24:10,356 --> 00:24:15,676 Speaker 1: along the northeastern border and coast, they destroy stocks of rice, boats, bicycles, 370 00:24:16,156 --> 00:24:19,196 Speaker 1: anything they think that might help the Japanese if they invade. 371 00:24:20,036 --> 00:24:24,516 Speaker 1: Then there's a cyclone twenty foot storm surge kills thirty 372 00:24:24,596 --> 00:24:28,716 Speaker 1: thousand people. The new rice crop is devastated. The government panics. 373 00:24:29,356 --> 00:24:31,116 Speaker 1: They don't know how they're going to feed their troops, 374 00:24:31,556 --> 00:24:33,756 Speaker 1: so they go into all the towns and start buying 375 00:24:33,796 --> 00:24:38,116 Speaker 1: up rice. The price sores. Speculators step in and start 376 00:24:38,156 --> 00:24:41,716 Speaker 1: hoarding rice. That's exactly how famines start. 377 00:24:42,196 --> 00:24:44,996 Speaker 2: What you have is by the end of nineteen forty 378 00:24:45,036 --> 00:24:48,916 Speaker 2: two you have the Vicero of India making fervent pleas 379 00:24:49,036 --> 00:24:51,956 Speaker 2: to the wark Eminet in London for imports of wheat. 380 00:24:52,716 --> 00:24:56,156 Speaker 1: The police go to Lindeman he's Paymaster General in the 381 00:24:56,196 --> 00:24:59,916 Speaker 1: War Cabinet, which means he's basically the government's logistics man, 382 00:25:00,396 --> 00:25:02,956 Speaker 1: the one responsible for making sure there are enough food 383 00:25:02,996 --> 00:25:07,276 Speaker 1: and supplies for England and its allies. Lindemann says, no, 384 00:25:07,916 --> 00:25:09,876 Speaker 1: we're in the middle of a war. We can't spare 385 00:25:09,916 --> 00:25:12,396 Speaker 1: the food, and even if we could, we have no 386 00:25:12,516 --> 00:25:15,716 Speaker 1: way of getting the food to India were tapped out. 387 00:25:15,916 --> 00:25:20,876 Speaker 2: Throughout the spring of nineteen forty three. The Viceroy is saying, 388 00:25:20,876 --> 00:25:24,716 Speaker 2: we absolutely need this, we absolutely need this food, and 389 00:25:24,876 --> 00:25:27,236 Speaker 2: Turwi is saying we can't spare the ships. We can't 390 00:25:27,236 --> 00:25:28,356 Speaker 2: spare the ships. 391 00:25:28,276 --> 00:25:33,636 Speaker 1: But Mukuji wonders is that true. Was Lindaman telling another lie. 392 00:25:34,596 --> 00:25:37,236 Speaker 1: She then does something no historian had ever done before. 393 00:25:37,956 --> 00:25:40,596 Speaker 1: She digs into the British shipping archive from the war, 394 00:25:40,996 --> 00:25:44,756 Speaker 1: which had just been declassified, files that literally hadn't been 395 00:25:44,796 --> 00:25:47,556 Speaker 1: opened in sixty years, and she finds out that the 396 00:25:47,556 --> 00:25:51,756 Speaker 1: British had lots of food in nineteen forty three, huge stockpiles, 397 00:25:52,316 --> 00:25:54,716 Speaker 1: so much that the Americans, who were the source of 398 00:25:54,716 --> 00:25:57,316 Speaker 1: a lot of that food, got suspicious that the British 399 00:25:57,396 --> 00:26:00,156 Speaker 1: were hoarding surplus weak to sell when the war was over. 400 00:26:01,236 --> 00:26:05,596 Speaker 1: And what about the UK's supposed shortage of boats. Mukuji says, 401 00:26:05,956 --> 00:26:08,276 Speaker 1: there was one at the beginning of nineteen forty three, 402 00:26:08,596 --> 00:26:11,756 Speaker 1: when German and submarines were still wreaking havoc in the Atlantic, 403 00:26:12,356 --> 00:26:14,916 Speaker 1: but not by the end of that year, the US 404 00:26:14,996 --> 00:26:18,516 Speaker 1: starts sending over so many ships that by late nineteen 405 00:26:18,636 --> 00:26:21,676 Speaker 1: forty three, when the faminin Bengal is at its height, 406 00:26:22,076 --> 00:26:25,596 Speaker 1: there's actually a surplus of boats on the Allied side. 407 00:26:25,636 --> 00:26:28,956 Speaker 1: In fact, in nineteen forty three, the British actually starts 408 00:26:28,996 --> 00:26:33,636 Speaker 1: shipping wheat from Australia up through the Indian Ocean, just 409 00:26:33,916 --> 00:26:34,596 Speaker 1: not to India. 410 00:26:34,876 --> 00:26:37,836 Speaker 2: There'd be eighteen ships loading with wheat and wheat flour 411 00:26:38,676 --> 00:26:41,556 Speaker 2: over in September and October, and not one of them 412 00:26:41,556 --> 00:26:44,956 Speaker 2: were going to India, and some of them were actually 413 00:26:44,956 --> 00:26:48,436 Speaker 2: going to a stockpile that was being built up in 414 00:26:48,476 --> 00:26:52,716 Speaker 2: the Middle East for feeding Europe after liberation. 415 00:26:53,436 --> 00:26:56,756 Speaker 1: British ships full of grain are sailing right past India 416 00:26:56,876 --> 00:26:58,476 Speaker 1: on the way to the Middle East to be stored 417 00:26:58,516 --> 00:27:02,036 Speaker 1: for some future hypothetical need. They might even stop and 418 00:27:02,076 --> 00:27:04,996 Speaker 1: refuel the Mumbai but nothing leaves the ship. 419 00:27:05,396 --> 00:27:08,836 Speaker 2: So you have a situation in which India is starving. 420 00:27:09,356 --> 00:27:12,516 Speaker 2: There are corpses on the streets of Calcutta. 421 00:27:13,356 --> 00:27:17,436 Speaker 1: So why why is Lindenmann refusing to help? It doesn't 422 00:27:17,436 --> 00:27:22,596 Speaker 1: even make logical sense. Indian soldiers, hundreds of thousands of them, 423 00:27:22,796 --> 00:27:25,116 Speaker 1: are fighting the Germans in the Middle East and Africa. 424 00:27:25,716 --> 00:27:28,476 Speaker 1: When other countries like Canada and the United States offer 425 00:27:28,556 --> 00:27:31,396 Speaker 1: to send food to India, the British say, we don't 426 00:27:31,436 --> 00:27:36,796 Speaker 1: want it. They turn down help. Lindenmann seems completely unmoved 427 00:27:36,876 --> 00:27:40,676 Speaker 1: by India's plight. In my view, the Indians have got 428 00:27:40,676 --> 00:27:44,076 Speaker 1: themselves into a mess, very largely through their own fault. 429 00:27:44,636 --> 00:27:48,596 Speaker 1: He writes in the middle of the famine, their own fault. 430 00:27:48,796 --> 00:27:52,076 Speaker 1: Then he goes on, this shortage of food is likely 431 00:27:52,156 --> 00:27:55,116 Speaker 1: to be endemic in a country where the population is 432 00:27:55,156 --> 00:28:00,596 Speaker 1: always increased until only bare subsistence is possible. Basically, they 433 00:28:00,596 --> 00:28:08,716 Speaker 1: have too many babies. Now, remember Lindaman's a physicists by 434 00:28:08,756 --> 00:28:12,276 Speaker 1: training who rides around in a chauffeur driven limousine and 435 00:28:12,356 --> 00:28:15,796 Speaker 1: plays tennis in full dress. If he's thought about India 436 00:28:15,916 --> 00:28:18,396 Speaker 1: once in his life before the war, I'd be stunned. 437 00:28:19,196 --> 00:28:22,276 Speaker 1: Yet here he is, with a fully worked out ideology 438 00:28:22,316 --> 00:28:26,116 Speaker 1: about Britain's moral obligations to one of its most important allies. 439 00:28:27,676 --> 00:28:29,676 Speaker 1: It's tempting to put this down to another of his 440 00:28:29,796 --> 00:28:34,036 Speaker 1: idiosyncratic prejudices. He also didn't like Jews all that much, 441 00:28:34,396 --> 00:28:37,276 Speaker 1: and black people, according to a friend, filled him with 442 00:28:37,356 --> 00:28:41,316 Speaker 1: a physical revulsion which he was unable to control. But 443 00:28:41,356 --> 00:28:43,116 Speaker 1: I'm not sure that we're seeing lind him in here. 444 00:28:43,916 --> 00:28:48,196 Speaker 1: I think we're seeing Churchill. Churchill is the one with 445 00:28:48,236 --> 00:28:52,396 Speaker 1: an issue about India. He's obsessed with India. In the 446 00:28:52,476 --> 00:28:54,916 Speaker 1: years leading up to the war. Gandhi is building his 447 00:28:55,036 --> 00:29:00,036 Speaker 1: independence movement within India, and Churchill hates Gandhy. Churchill is 448 00:29:00,316 --> 00:29:03,036 Speaker 1: furious about the fact that Britain has to buy raw 449 00:29:03,076 --> 00:29:06,836 Speaker 1: materials from India, meaning that the Master is running up 450 00:29:06,876 --> 00:29:10,916 Speaker 1: a debt with its supposed subject. The British cabinet minister 451 00:29:11,036 --> 00:29:13,916 Speaker 1: in London who's responsible for India is a man named 452 00:29:13,956 --> 00:29:17,436 Speaker 1: Leopold Amory. He's the one begging for food for India. 453 00:29:18,316 --> 00:29:22,036 Speaker 1: Amory keeps a diary of his interactions with Churchill. At 454 00:29:22,036 --> 00:29:24,636 Speaker 1: one point he says, Churchill goes on a rant about 455 00:29:24,636 --> 00:29:27,996 Speaker 1: Indians in India, and Amory tells him, you sound like Hitler. 456 00:29:28,916 --> 00:29:32,196 Speaker 1: At another point he writes of Churchill, I am by 457 00:29:32,236 --> 00:29:35,476 Speaker 1: no means sure that whether on this subject of India, 458 00:29:35,796 --> 00:29:41,556 Speaker 1: he is really quite sane. So why was Lindenman so 459 00:29:41,676 --> 00:29:45,756 Speaker 1: adamant that England could not help India? Because Churchill was 460 00:29:45,836 --> 00:29:49,276 Speaker 1: adamant that England could not help India, and Lindaman was 461 00:29:49,316 --> 00:29:50,076 Speaker 1: a loyal. 462 00:29:49,836 --> 00:29:54,996 Speaker 2: Friend, Churwell would send Churchill these minutes. They had to 463 00:29:55,036 --> 00:29:58,876 Speaker 2: be no longer than ten lines long, and they would 464 00:29:58,956 --> 00:30:02,636 Speaker 2: recommend a course of action. And to design these minutes 465 00:30:02,676 --> 00:30:05,676 Speaker 2: he actually left out a lot of qualifications, the bad 466 00:30:05,716 --> 00:30:08,516 Speaker 2: things that could happen if you did such and such. 467 00:30:09,196 --> 00:30:12,756 Speaker 2: For instance, in the shipping cut the Ministry of War 468 00:30:12,836 --> 00:30:17,476 Speaker 2: Transport had warned that they'd be violent cataclysms in the 469 00:30:17,516 --> 00:30:22,196 Speaker 2: economies of the Indian Ocean area. None of these concerns 470 00:30:22,276 --> 00:30:26,556 Speaker 2: ever made it into a terrible memo. He actually simply 471 00:30:26,996 --> 00:30:30,036 Speaker 2: laid out the rationale for doing whatever he and Churchill 472 00:30:30,116 --> 00:30:30,996 Speaker 2: wanted to be done. 473 00:30:38,796 --> 00:30:41,996 Speaker 1: Why don't we spend more time thinking about friends at politicians? 474 00:30:42,516 --> 00:30:46,436 Speaker 1: I'll never understand it. We go through lengthy election seasons 475 00:30:46,476 --> 00:30:49,996 Speaker 1: where we endlessly scrutinize all the people running for public office. 476 00:30:50,396 --> 00:30:53,156 Speaker 1: We look at the candidates, their beliefs, their background, the 477 00:30:53,236 --> 00:30:57,356 Speaker 1: clothes they wear. We look at them. But then after 478 00:30:57,396 --> 00:31:00,836 Speaker 1: the election is over, we realize we didn't just elect 479 00:31:00,916 --> 00:31:06,476 Speaker 1: that candidate. Because no one governs alone. Eventually, leaders get overwhelmed. 480 00:31:06,756 --> 00:31:09,116 Speaker 1: At a certain point. They're going to call their closest 481 00:31:09,196 --> 00:31:11,396 Speaker 1: friend at two in the morning and say, what do 482 00:31:11,476 --> 00:31:14,916 Speaker 1: I do? So when you're voting for someone, you're also 483 00:31:15,076 --> 00:31:17,276 Speaker 1: voting for that friend who gets called at two in 484 00:31:17,316 --> 00:31:22,916 Speaker 1: the morning. That's what's strange about elections. Friends should be scrutinized, 485 00:31:23,556 --> 00:31:26,116 Speaker 1: the friends should all have to debate each other, but 486 00:31:26,196 --> 00:31:31,636 Speaker 1: they don't. Friends get a pass. In his lecture, CP 487 00:31:31,756 --> 00:31:33,876 Speaker 1: Snow called this court politics. 488 00:31:34,316 --> 00:31:40,916 Speaker 3: The Linderman Churchill relation is the most fascinating example of 489 00:31:40,956 --> 00:31:45,236 Speaker 3: court politics that we're likely to see. 490 00:31:44,196 --> 00:31:49,276 Speaker 1: People called Linderman the prof. Sometimes that was said with affection, 491 00:31:50,036 --> 00:31:51,676 Speaker 1: sometimes with bewilderment. 492 00:31:52,276 --> 00:31:56,236 Speaker 3: I still can hear friend of mine, man who's normally 493 00:31:56,316 --> 00:32:01,476 Speaker 3: very tough and very intelligent, on a black London wartime night, 494 00:32:02,316 --> 00:32:06,956 Speaker 3: as we talked about the bombing policy, saying the Prime 495 00:32:06,996 --> 00:32:10,756 Speaker 3: Minister and prof have decided. Who are we to say them? 496 00:32:10,836 --> 00:32:16,356 Speaker 1: May the best guest of how many died in the 497 00:32:16,356 --> 00:32:20,396 Speaker 1: Bengal famine of nineteen forty three is three million people. 498 00:32:21,476 --> 00:32:29,756 Speaker 1: Three million. After the war, the British government held a 499 00:32:29,796 --> 00:32:33,916 Speaker 1: formal inquiry into what happened, but the investigation was forbidden 500 00:32:33,956 --> 00:32:38,996 Speaker 1: to consider and I'm quoting Her Majesty's Government's decision in 501 00:32:39,036 --> 00:32:43,156 Speaker 1: regard to shipping of imports. In other words, they were 502 00:32:43,196 --> 00:32:46,796 Speaker 1: asked to investigate the cause of the famine without investigating 503 00:32:46,796 --> 00:32:47,876 Speaker 1: the cause of the famine. 504 00:32:51,316 --> 00:32:54,436 Speaker 2: Churchill's sixth volume History of the War was kind of 505 00:32:54,436 --> 00:32:58,396 Speaker 2: a primary reference for historians of at least a generation. 506 00:32:59,956 --> 00:33:02,556 Speaker 2: He made no mention of the famine. It just sort 507 00:33:02,556 --> 00:33:05,156 Speaker 2: of got one mention in an appendix. 508 00:33:04,836 --> 00:33:08,716 Speaker 1: In six volumes. There is one mentioned in an appendix of. 509 00:33:08,836 --> 00:33:12,316 Speaker 2: The in a document that makes it into the appendix. Yes, 510 00:33:13,196 --> 00:33:15,756 Speaker 2: there's no mention of it. In fact, what he says 511 00:33:15,796 --> 00:33:19,636 Speaker 2: instead is that India was carried through the struggle on 512 00:33:19,676 --> 00:33:21,316 Speaker 2: the shoulders of our small island. 513 00:33:23,076 --> 00:33:25,356 Speaker 1: No one in London was interested in telling the real 514 00:33:25,436 --> 00:33:29,556 Speaker 1: story of what happened, and Churchill and Lindemann had no 515 00:33:29,716 --> 00:33:34,596 Speaker 1: interest in talking about it either. They decided to keep 516 00:33:34,636 --> 00:33:47,596 Speaker 1: it all between friends. Revision's History is produced by Miel 517 00:33:47,636 --> 00:33:51,956 Speaker 1: LaBelle and Jacob Smith, with Camille Baptista, Stephanie Daniel and 518 00:33:52,036 --> 00:33:57,076 Speaker 1: Siomara Martinez White. Our editor is Julia Barton. Flon Williams 519 00:33:57,196 --> 00:34:01,516 Speaker 1: is our engineer. Original music by Luis Sciarra. Special thanks 520 00:34:01,556 --> 00:34:05,596 Speaker 1: to Andy Bauers and Jacob Weisberger Panople. I'm Malcolm Gladwell.