1 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 1: I figure out what we're gonna talk about here, it's 2 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: gonna take the interview. You've been County Sheriff's office times 3 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: approximately nineteen minutes till twelve. President Ernest interviews myself, Detective 4 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: Blankenship at the County Sheriff's office and Detective Arnorming with 5 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: the television branch of the Sheriff's office. 6 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 2: And we're talking to he's a white male. 7 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: We served you what is called the prosecutor subpoena, and 8 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 1: at that time you had agreed to come to the 9 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 1: Sheriff's office and answer some questions and ask some if 10 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 1: you want to. During that time, you also give us 11 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: consent to search on your big Is that correct? 12 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 2: You don't pick up a nunn? Is okay. 13 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 3: During the summer of twenty twenty three, I spoke with 14 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 3: a source about a b CSO suspect and Danas Didam's murder. 15 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 3: The man I am calling Jack Lenny, who in my 16 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 3: mind was the only suspect anyone needed to focus on 17 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 3: and either eliminate or go after with everything I had. 18 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:20,040 Speaker 3: My source mentioned a recorded interview with BCSO detectives conducted 19 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 3: with Lenny in the early nineteen nineties that I needed 20 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 3: to hear and. 21 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 2: Also your advised your rights. Did you understand your right? Yes? 22 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 2: Was there any questions that you want to ask us me? 23 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 2: Did you? Did you understand your rights? 24 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 3: The more I had found out about Lenny, the more 25 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:40,919 Speaker 3: he fit into being the prime suspect in danist Didam's murder, 26 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 3: and as I spoke to investigators who worked on SHAWNA. 27 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 3: Grayte Garber's murder, Lenny's name was very much at the 28 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 3: forefront of that investigation as well. And Jack Lenny, well, 29 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 3: he knew it. 30 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:58,279 Speaker 2: Did you understand your rights? 31 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: I'm well, I need the lawyer is now I wonder 32 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: what that stop? 33 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 2: Right? 34 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 4: Know? 35 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 2: And that's for the lawyer. 36 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: That's something you'll have to consider. What I want to 37 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 1: go through is that you understood your rights? Why you're 38 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: saying that now? 39 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 2: Yes? If you don't want to answer any questions, you don't, 40 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 2: that's totally. It's very baffled because other than know why 41 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 2: I'm here. 42 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: Proof, it's going to that oh see, okay, And if 43 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: anytime you want to stop this interview and do what 44 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: you think is right, like I said, you're not under 45 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 1: wrist but anytime you want to stop, just say stop. 46 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: You know, you're you're a free man, you're not under wrist, 47 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: and you can go and come as you please. You 48 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: want a glass of water, go get a coat, go 49 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 1: to lunch. Okay, operate with Yes, I don't know why 50 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: I'm here. Well, that's that's why we're going to get 51 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: into it as we go on. And look, Well, I 52 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,519 Speaker 1: want to do is is ask you some background questions, 53 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: and I want to go back, you know, say, four 54 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: five years something like that, find out where all you've 55 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 1: lived and what all you've done, and to remember that 56 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: far back. 57 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 3: The one consistent observation about this guy I had heard, 58 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 3: beyond him being a serial sexual harasser or even worse, 59 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 3: is that he's one cold son of a bitch who 60 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 3: knows how to play the system. Facts that became increasingly 61 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 3: more implicit throughout this old interview. 62 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 2: You got a company car back in or company trailer? 63 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 2: What was that? Hell, y'all? Pick up? What come? Was? 64 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 4: All? 65 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 2: Right? I think I remember it? 66 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 5: You topper on it? 67 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 3: If that was hard to hear on this time warrant ape, 68 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 3: he says yes to the camper question. In fact, photos 69 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 3: I obtained of this vehicle matched the exact description of 70 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 3: the vehicle. Parked behind Dana's car on the morning after 71 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 3: she was reported missing. 72 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: Want's you tell me about the cars you've own him 73 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: since this Ranger you've got right now? 74 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 2: How long he had it now? After? I told that, yeah, 75 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 2: not too much after. 76 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 3: It's hard to understand his answer because he mumbles, is that. 77 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 2: Back in nineteen ninety when you wreck the torioder? How 78 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 2: very couldn't David? That sounds about right. 79 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 3: All this discussion about his vehicles was small talk for 80 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 3: detectives who were just looking to gauge his level of 81 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 3: participation and transparency. They had already pulled the history from 82 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 3: the Motor Vehicle Department to see which makes and models 83 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 3: of vehicles he owned and when? 84 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:07,719 Speaker 2: How long do you have that one with Toyota? 85 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 1: I was thinking about, it's a lot of time would 86 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: you have before that one? 87 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 2: Soon? Truck? 88 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 4: And uh so? 89 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 2: Science Cameron on cameras on the shell or. 90 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 3: The amount of time he took to answer what are 91 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 3: essentially basic questions, spoke to how carefully he was thinking 92 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 3: about what to say. At one point, he mentions an 93 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 3: accident he was in back in the early eighties, which 94 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 3: he claimed had caused a traumatic brain injury. Danny Varner, 95 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 3: the detective you here most prominently in the recordings, pushed 96 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 3: him on it, but he refused to give any specifics. 97 00:05:56,960 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 3: They moved on to his employment history during the time 98 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 3: of Dana's abduction and murder. He not only worked within 99 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,359 Speaker 3: a mile of where Dana's body was found, but witness 100 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 3: statements support how he had been sexually harassing women at 101 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 3: the nearby Ozark Beverage company, which, if you recall from 102 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 3: an earlier episode, was just up the road from the 103 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:23,039 Speaker 3: Stidham crime scene. 104 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: Yours nineties. Yes, y'all still married? Yes, bit separated? No, 105 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: still lived together. 106 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 2: Sometimes you can explain that to him, he said. 107 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 3: They split their time between two different states, where he 108 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,720 Speaker 3: lived in Arkansas and the state where she lived. 109 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 2: Get married previously to her first marriage? Right, I went 110 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 2: to her married beforeios. 111 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 3: They pressed him for his wife's first name and address, 112 00:06:55,520 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 3: simple things. What does he do? He plays the stupid card, 113 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 3: of course, then recalled that she likely lived somewhere in 114 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 3: the Southwest. He had one daughter with her, he says, 115 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 3: but hadn't seen her in many, many years. Guess why 116 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 3: exactly he was getting weird with her too? 117 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 2: Does she give him around here an hour? No? Appreciate. 118 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 3: Then they casually snuck in additional questions about his vehicle 119 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 3: and a timeline associated with Dana's murder. 120 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 2: You lived over here at these harvests, Wright Camber. 121 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 3: He nodded yes to the question. The point of this 122 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 3: short interview was to rattle Lenny and lock down a 123 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 3: few specifics. Beyond that, they wanted to get a feel 124 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 3: for his overall demeanor. See how cocky he was. In 125 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 3: other words, as an investigator conducted an initial interview like this, 126 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 3: you allow the suspect to think he is in control. 127 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 3: The BCSO walked away from that short interview with two 128 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 3: major tasks ahead to find and speak to Lenny's ex 129 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 3: wife and daughter and begin to draft, secure and execute 130 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 3: two search warrants, one for his house and of course 131 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 3: a second for his vehicles. Previously on paper ghosts. 132 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: If you've got a child and you send him and 133 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: take care of the keys and all this, and send 134 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: him to school and everything, you. 135 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 4: Keep crack from your child. And the part that bothered 136 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 4: me for years was so if somebody didn't report or missing, 137 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 4: I want. 138 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: You to talk to this man. 139 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 4: Okay. 140 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 5: I had no idea that he has something to offer, 141 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 5: but he was here the night that he heard this. 142 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 5: But I'm looking at my emails and it says Laurie 143 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 5: me Grace, and she was nice. I didn't know her 144 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,079 Speaker 5: by Anna knew her, and she looked exactly like what 145 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 5: I thought she would look like. And I just knew 146 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 5: that this is funny. 147 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:13,679 Speaker 2: Who she is? 148 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 3: My name is em William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist 149 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,199 Speaker 3: and author of more than forty true crime books. This 150 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 3: is season four of Paper Ghosts the Ozarks. It had 151 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 3: taken thirty years to identify Grace Dowe and learn her 152 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 3: name Shauna Garber, three decades. In that sense, technology had 153 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,079 Speaker 3: caught up to Shawna's case, the same as it had 154 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 3: in so many cold cases we see today. But if 155 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 3: Detective Laurie Howard, Sheriff Rob Evenson, and Detective Ronda Wise 156 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 3: thought identifying Shawna was caused for celebration, the reality of 157 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 3: the road ahead became abundantly clear right away, because as 158 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 3: they began searching for information about her, it seemed as 159 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 3: if well SHAWNA. Garber had never existed to begin with. 160 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 2: Okay, so who is Shauna Garber? 161 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,439 Speaker 5: That's a good question, because she had a tough go 162 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 5: as a little girl. She her mother had some issues 163 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 5: and she was burned as a child to her mother's 164 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 5: or her mother willfully earned her. So she went into 165 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 5: foster care. But I think that she might have been 166 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 5: bounced around for a little bit and even in the 167 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 5: foster care system, and then of course eventually she aged out. 168 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,599 Speaker 5: So she lost her relationships with her bio family and 169 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 5: also with her step family, and then she ultimately lost 170 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 5: the relationships with her foster family. And so she goes 171 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 5: out on the street. 172 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 4: She does. 173 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,719 Speaker 5: Yeah, and she's eighteen at that time. Yeah, she's on 174 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 5: her own now, I say, on her own. I think 175 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,959 Speaker 5: she had a boyfriend at the time. I don't know 176 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,599 Speaker 5: the nature of that relationship. I'm told it's difficult to 177 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 5: find any type of information on him at this point. 178 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 6: How does she end up in McDonald County. 179 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 5: I can surmise how that happened. I can't tell you factually. 180 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 5: But she was actually working in Joplin, Missouri, but she 181 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:30,319 Speaker 5: was living in Coffeevill, Kansas, and she was making that 182 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 5: commute from Coffeevill, Kansas to Joplin, Missouri and back. 183 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,079 Speaker 2: And what kind of job was it that she was working, 184 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 2: I don't know. 185 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 3: I contacted Shawna's brother, Robert Ringwald, and started by asking 186 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 3: him where they grew up. 187 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 7: We lived in several different places, that is mostly in 188 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 7: eastern Kansas between Tapeka and Iole, Okay. 189 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 3: And what was the house like the family like at 190 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:00,439 Speaker 3: the time as kids? 191 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 7: At that time, it was our biological mother and my 192 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 7: older brother, myself and Shauna. 193 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 3: What was Shauna like then? 194 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 7: She was singing happy quite a bit. 195 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 5: You know what did she like to do? 196 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 2: Play? 197 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 7: I don't don't remember. You know, an awful lot. We 198 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 7: used to play in the yard together and stuff. 199 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 3: So you and Shauna were taken away from your mom. Yes, 200 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 3: tell me a little bit about that. So how old 201 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 3: were you? 202 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 5: Uh? 203 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 4: Six? 204 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 7: And she would have been four. 205 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 3: This was about the same time as you heard in 206 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 3: the last episode that Shawna's mother horribly disfigured her own 207 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 3: little girl. It's hard to talk about this sort of abuse, 208 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 3: but it's what Shauna and her family went through. Her 209 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,599 Speaker 3: mother poured lighter fluid on her, lit a match and 210 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 3: set the girl on fire. While she would never be 211 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 3: the same, she was removed from the situation. It was 212 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 3: also the moment in Shauna's life when she became part 213 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 3: of the revolving door of the foster care system. So 214 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 3: did you stay in contact with her? 215 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:25,839 Speaker 7: No, we weren't allowed to. I wasn't allowed to. She 216 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 7: was removed from several foster homes because our mother would 217 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 7: interfere with everything. I mean to the point she even 218 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,839 Speaker 7: threatened to kill one foster family's kids. 219 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 3: Wow. 220 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 7: Yeah, she was evil. 221 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 3: And so as time goes on, do you ever see 222 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 3: Shauna again? 223 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 7: I saw our birthday after we were taken. We were 224 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 7: taken to a SRS office or something like that and 225 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 7: celebrate our birthdays. And then saw her one time after 226 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 7: that in court when they severed our mother's parental rights. 227 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 7: And I never saw her again. 228 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 3: And how come they severed the parental rights. 229 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 7: Because our mother was an evil, vindictive spawn of health. 230 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 3: And then what did you hear about her as the 231 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 3: years go on? 232 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 2: Not very much. 233 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 7: We were trying to keep everything about her a secret 234 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 7: from everybody so that our biological mother wouldn't find her. 235 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 8: I see. 236 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 3: And so time moves on. You grow into an adult, 237 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 3: and I guess you sent some letters to Shanna. Can 238 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 3: you tell me about that? 239 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 7: Yeah? I wrote two letters and I gave them to 240 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 7: the social worker. One was for them to give to her. 241 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 7: Writ way couldn't get anything but my first name in 242 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 7: it and nothing other than that, you know, just tell 243 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 7: her that you know, I was out here and I was, 244 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 7: you know, looking forward to meeting her. And then the 245 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 7: second one was formed to give to her after she 246 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 7: turned eighteen and had my name, you know, my full name, 247 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 7: my contact information, you know, how she could get a 248 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 7: hold of me, you know, letting her know that if 249 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 7: she wanted to meet me, that I was here and 250 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 7: wanted to see her. 251 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 3: And you were confident that the social worker would forward 252 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 3: those letters to Shawna. Right, so I was. And then 253 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 3: what happened? 254 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 7: They were put in a drawer somewhere and left, never 255 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 7: given to her. 256 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 3: It was as if a series of tragic events beginning 257 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 3: almost on the day she was born, culminated in Shawna's murder. 258 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 3: Imagine the frustration, horror, and emotional trauma Rob felt when 259 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 3: he discovered that those letters never made it to Shawna, 260 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 3: all because some incompetent, lazy social worker forgot or just 261 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 3: chose not to forward them. Which leads me to wonder 262 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 3: if Shauna had gotten those letters, if she had known 263 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 3: there was someone out there who cared for her, loved her, 264 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 3: and wanted a relationship with her. Would I be talking 265 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 3: about her now as a murder victim. I've heard it 266 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 3: said that tragedy and life are inseparable. I think maybe 267 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 3: inevitable is a better word. We can't avoid pain, yet 268 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 3: we do put policies and programs in place and the 269 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 3: hope that preventable tragedies stemming from the ugliest side of 270 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 3: our humanity are avoided. But even those policies and programs 271 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 3: can sometimes fail us. As I continued talking to Detective 272 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 3: Lorie Howard, the idea that Shanna Garber got swallowed up 273 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 3: by the system, the same system that contributed in some 274 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 3: ways to her death, hovered over our conversation, which makes 275 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 3: investigating her murder that much more difficult from both an 276 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 3: emotional and practical standpoint. 277 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 6: It's hard to do victimology. It's hard to find people 278 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 6: who knew her right correct. 279 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 5: And even more so if you are a child, which 280 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 5: I now have hindsight, but if you're a childhood's growing 281 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 5: up in the foster care system because she's not reported missing, 282 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 5: so you can't go through a database of missing people 283 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 5: in your area, or even missing people in a four 284 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 5: state area because she's not there now. Later I learned 285 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 5: that supposedly she had been reported missing by the boyfriend 286 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 5: in Joblin, Missouri, but there's no. 287 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,959 Speaker 3: Record of it. I wondered if that elusive boyfriend had 288 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 3: ever been considered a suspect in her murder. 289 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 5: I think you have to always you kind of work 290 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 5: from the victim out and the people that are closest 291 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,160 Speaker 5: to them, And certainly the boyfriend is where a paramour 292 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 5: of any sort it would be where you would start. 293 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 5: But I don't know that that could really easily or 294 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 5: readily be developed because the boyfriend, again is we took off, 295 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 5: he took off, and he's not there, and we're not 296 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 5: sure where he is or even if he's alive. 297 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 3: So as an unsolved murder, this is a very difficult case, 298 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 3: right it is. 299 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 9: It's extremely difficult, but it's not impossible. None of them 300 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 9: were impossible. It was impossible, we'd probably stop trying. But 301 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 9: this can be solved, and it will be. It's just 302 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 9: a matter of keep plugging away. 303 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 5: I mean, we started with nothing, and now we know 304 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 5: who she is, so that's probably ninety percent of it is. 305 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 4: Knowing who she is. 306 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 5: We will continue to put things back to the lab 307 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 5: and retest and as new technology comes along. 308 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 6: Now, was this case looked at as possibly tied to 309 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 6: data Stidham's case. 310 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:32,959 Speaker 5: Absolutely, And the reason for that is because they are 311 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 5: similar in appearance, but they are also similar geographically, and 312 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 5: the timeline is really close. You're looking at that eighty 313 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 5: nine to ninety in years. So when you begin to 314 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,400 Speaker 5: put people together, you look, okay, geographically, how do they look? 315 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 5: Are they similar in nature? Do they have anything in common? 316 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 5: And then your timeline and the way they're found and 317 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 5: the way they're fan Absolutely, now Dana, and again Dana 318 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 5: was tied, not not to this degree, but she was 319 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 5: certainly bound. She had the same colored hair, which is 320 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 5: kind of a dark auburn hair. There's a group of 321 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 5: women in this area that are that have been found 322 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 5: that are similar in their appearance. 323 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 3: How do you even begin to solve a murder? Better yet, too, 324 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 3: if one is connected to the other when you know 325 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 3: so very little about your victim. This was a problem 326 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 3: for the McDonald County Sheriff's Office and its ability to 327 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 3: begin building a profile of Shawna's killer if they have 328 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 3: no idea about Shawna's movements near the time of her death, 329 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 3: it becomes almost impossible to nail down not only those 330 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,479 Speaker 3: who might have known her, but the events leading up 331 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 3: to her death. Hair Sheriff Rob Evenson. 332 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 10: Remember, you're going back to nineteen eighty nine, nineteen ninety 333 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 10: and there's not We have not been able to find 334 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 10: those electronic those records of that. So when after she 335 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 10: ages out of the foster system at age eighteen, there's 336 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 10: not a whole lot that we've been able to find. 337 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:20,880 Speaker 10: She didn't have a lot of presence that left any 338 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 10: kind of tangible record that we've been able to find. 339 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:28,400 Speaker 10: Like friends, correct, yes, friends, We were able to identify 340 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 10: a former boyfriend, but the best information we have is 341 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 10: that those two had broken up quite some time before 342 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 10: she would have ended up here in McDonald County. 343 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 6: Was there any indication that she was into drugs or 344 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 6: that scene or anything like that. 345 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 10: We believe so, But if you ask us how certain 346 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 10: we are, I couldn't tell you that we were one 347 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 10: hundred percent, But yes, the likelihood is there. 348 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 6: Yet, did you begin to maybe think that her case 349 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 6: was connected to some of the other cases in the 350 00:21:57,880 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 6: area at all, because. 351 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 3: There certainly was a lot of cases during that time. 352 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 10: Yes, I mean, anytime you have an unsolved homiside, you 353 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 10: always look for other connections to other similar cases. So 354 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 10: of course that was one of the things. There were 355 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 10: so many leads that were run down and followed. So yes, 356 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 10: I mean, there are other unsolved cases in this area, 357 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 10: so that is something that we always would look into. 358 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 10: But I don't know that we had any direct evidence 359 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 10: that would connect her to anybody else or any other case. 360 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 3: I asked Detective Lorie Howard about a cause of death 361 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 3: if they were ever able to find out. The speculation 362 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 3: is strangulation based on all the bindings and cords and 363 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 3: ropes found. Now you may wonder how law enforcement could 364 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 3: possibly prove a skeletonized murder victim was strangled to death. 365 00:22:55,680 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 3: After all, a pathologist cannot inspect bruising around the neck area, 366 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 3: other soft tissue, or look for signs of particual hemorrhage, 367 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 3: burst blood vessels in the eyes. But there's a delicate 368 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 3: bone called the hyoid in our throats that, when compressed 369 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 3: during strangulation, usually snaps. So was Shawna's hyoid bone actually broken? 370 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 4: No? 371 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 5: The answer to that is no, we believe very strongly 372 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 5: that she was strangled, just because she was badly decomposed. 373 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 5: Her body was strewn across the lawn from animals and 374 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 5: the natural process of decomposition. But we believe that she 375 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 5: wasn't stabbed because normally and that type of thing, if 376 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 5: you hit a bone, you might have a chip, and 377 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 5: that wasn't necessarily there. The skeleton was intact, so you're 378 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 5: not looking at blunt force trauma. We didn't see anything 379 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 5: like that. Really, there was nothing to tell us that 380 00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:00,919 Speaker 5: there was any sort of trauma to person eletal remains. 381 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 5: So we believe she was more than likely strangled, and 382 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 5: I think that the bindings would support that. 383 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 6: So the how she's found is very important. 384 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 5: Right, it is, absolutely It tells you a great deal. 385 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 10: Tell me about that. 386 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 5: The crime scene essentially is your first picture of what happened, 387 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 5: and so you can determine a lot obviously from that. 388 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 5: Was there, what first trauma, how was she left, was 389 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 5: she clothed, what clothing was missing? How long has she 390 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 5: been there? And because she was bound in the manner 391 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 5: that she was bound and how was she bound, she 392 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 5: was essentially what we call hoptide, which is your hands, 393 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,239 Speaker 5: your wrists are bound behind your back and that then 394 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 5: is bound to your feet, and in her case it 395 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 5: was bound to a shoelace and only one shoelace, so 396 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 5: she had massive amounts of bindings. 397 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 3: What about the towel wrapped around Shawna's head with kowak cable, 398 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 3: what did it mean? 399 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 5: Normally that would tell you that he wants to cover 400 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 5: He either one didn't want to see the look on 401 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 5: his victim if she was alive at the time, and 402 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,719 Speaker 5: or he wants to cover something up. And so it's 403 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 5: it's almost exactly what you would think it is. They 404 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,479 Speaker 5: and I've heard this from more than one serial killer actually, 405 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,119 Speaker 5: and I'm not suggesting that's the case with Shauna, but 406 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 5: we don't know, but they do tend to not want 407 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 5: to see the look on their victims those. 408 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 10: Yeah, strangulation is very personal, it is. 409 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 5: It is, indeed, if you're that close to someone, as 410 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 5: opposed to just saying having shot someone from a distance. 411 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,439 Speaker 5: So it tells you a lot about the relationship. Generally powered, 412 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:48,640 Speaker 5: it tells you a lot about power. 413 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 3: Still, three letters, yes, letters loomed large in my mind. 414 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,159 Speaker 4: B t K. 415 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 3: At this stage my search for answers, I needed to 416 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 3: either include or exclude Dennis Raider from Shawna's murder. If 417 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 3: Jack Lenny was to be viewed as a potential suspect 418 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 3: in Dana's and Shawna's cases, bt K had to be 419 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 3: taken out of the equation. And there was only one 420 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 3: person I knew of who could speak as the authority 421 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 3: about Dennis Raider and his possible involvement in both cases. 422 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 2: Well, that was part of my I guess, my witch 423 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 2: Calt fantasy. These people were selected. A strangled missus o'toll, 424 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 2: then she went out or passed out. I thought she 425 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 2: was dead. She passed out. Then I strangled Josephine. 426 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 1: She passed out or I thought she was dead, and 427 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 1: then I went over and put a bag on Junior's head. 428 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 3: That, right there is who BTK is. The affect says 429 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 3: it all cold, stark, stoic, but very real. He is 430 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 3: talking there about murdering a family. But the takeaway from me, 431 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 3: I think, is that BTK is a serial killer, unafraid 432 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:29,119 Speaker 3: to talk about who he has killed. In September twenty 433 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:34,640 Speaker 3: twenty three, o Sage County, Oklahoma Sheriff Eddie Verdon announced 434 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 3: the formation of a BTK Task Force. This was in 435 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 3: relation to two specific victims. The sheriff was looking to 436 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,959 Speaker 3: bring Dennis Rader into a grand jury on murder charges 437 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 3: for Cynthia Kinney, a nineteen seventy six unsolved Thomis Side, 438 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 3: and SHAWNA. Garber. The local Oklahoma district attorney, Mike Fisher, 439 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 3: felt differently. Fact the guy came out swinging, saying there 440 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,120 Speaker 3: was not enough evidence to prove Verdin's theorem or press 441 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 3: charges against BTK. Verdon persisted, releasing a sketch Raider had 442 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 3: recently made of a woman bound hogtide and sitting on 443 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 3: a chair leaning up against a barn. Barnes played a 444 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 3: profound role in raiders murder fantasies. Some in law enforcement 445 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 3: believe the barn close to where Shauna Garber was found 446 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 3: had to be somehow connected to her murder. I reached 447 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 3: out to the one person who knows BTK, in my opinion, 448 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 3: better than anyone, but had also studied SHAWNA. Garber's case. 449 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 4: I'm doctor Catherine Ramsland. I'm a professor of forensic psychology, 450 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,479 Speaker 4: and i am a writer. I've written about seventy plus books, 451 00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 4: many of them on extreme offenders. 452 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 3: In twenty sixteen, doctor Ramsland published the book Confessions of 453 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 3: a serial killer, the untold story of Dennis Rader, the 454 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 3: BTK killer. So how and when did you come across 455 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 3: Seanna Garber's case? 456 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 4: Maybe a couple of years ago someone had mentioned it 457 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 4: and talked about is there these were cold cases in 458 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 4: this area, like the whole state, and she was on 459 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 4: a list, and somebody mentioned maybe there was some kind 460 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 4: of association with Dennis Rader. So that of course got 461 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 4: me interested. 462 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 3: That interest in what is a longer story of a 463 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 3: woman doctor Ramsland met and how her book was born 464 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 3: turned into prison visits, telephone calls and letters between her 465 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 3: and BTK. The book she produced with Rader is a 466 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 3: kind of BTK confession manifesto. 467 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 4: It was a very intense journey, and I always wondered 468 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 4: if there might be are the victims. So when the 469 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 4: grays Doe case came up, I wanted to see if 470 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 4: there were any potential. 471 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 3: Links to the dismay of many involved. Raider was suddenly 472 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 3: thrust into the number one slot for Shawna's case. As 473 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 3: of late twenty twenty three, I had it on solid 474 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 3: law enforcement authority that Raider had no connection to Shawna's murder. 475 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 3: I also uncovered information about a suspect other than Jack 476 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 3: Lenny for Shawna's case, which I will delve into more 477 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 3: deeply in the next few episodes. Here's how doctor Ramslin 478 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 3: describes Raider's very distinctive m a invaluable insight into one 479 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 3: of the darkest minds of the past half century. 480 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 4: Well, first, he chose his own moniker behind them, torture them, 481 00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 4: kill them BTK, So that signals right off the bat 482 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 4: he's after is he wants that binding thing that was 483 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 4: highly erotic to him. He's actually compelled serial killer. The 484 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 4: torture probably not so much, even though that would sort 485 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 4: of what he wanted to achieve was to terrorize Wichita, 486 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 4: his hometown. He murdered ten people between nineteen seventy four 487 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 4: and nineteen ninety one, always with some kind of bondage 488 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 4: aspect to it, because that would satisfy him. So if 489 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 4: there's mo to be had, it's really the idea that 490 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 4: he used some kind of bindings in each of his cases. 491 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 4: But he started by going into houses, picking out houses. 492 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 4: Usually they had a number three or some kind of 493 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 4: number that three would be divided into like a six 494 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 4: or nine, because three was a big deal to him. 495 00:31:57,920 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 4: It's a magical number. 496 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 3: As doctor Ramsland points out, Raider was meticulous and methodical. 497 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 3: His murders very much fantasy driven, but also torture could 498 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 3: have been involved. 499 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 4: So he'd check out houses. He'd enter a lot of 500 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 4: them where people weren't home, just to prove I guess 501 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 4: that he could. And he was a voyeur. He stalked people. 502 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 4: He found out about his victims typically, so usually had 503 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 4: plenty of time to check out how safe it was, 504 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 4: I mean, he was married, her job on the side, 505 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 4: I guess, and so it was he had to do 506 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 4: this when he had opportunities, so that if that's mo, 507 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 4: I mean, he went in. But then later he took 508 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 4: two of his victims out of the house, one of 509 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 4: which he posed in a church for pictures and various 510 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 4: items of lingerie he had stolen from other women, and 511 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 4: the other one he had meant to take to a barn, 512 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 4: an abandoned barn, which is instrumental in what we're talking about, 513 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 4: because that had always been a fantasy of his, is 514 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 4: to murder somebody in an old barn, And he had 515 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 4: already picked out some abandoned farmsteads around Wichita. But he 516 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 4: lost his way that night because it was snow, he 517 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 4: had boggy, so he dumped her under like a culvert 518 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 4: kind of bridge instead. But that and so that really 519 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 4: breaks his mo. 520 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 3: If you noticed, the term mo or modus operandi is 521 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 3: not something doctor Ramsln sounds all that excited about linking 522 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 3: to BTK or any serial killer for that matter. And 523 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 3: I'd have to agree serial killers can and will change 524 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 3: their mo from murder to murder. I believe there is 525 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 3: no typical serial killer, as much as the public wants 526 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 3: to believe there is. Base done the very small sample 527 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 3: we see routinely on television. 528 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 4: He didn't enter her home, but he entered her home 529 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,239 Speaker 4: very differently than he had and this is number ten. 530 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 4: He entered her home very differently than he had any 531 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 4: of the others he broke in. He lifted a cinder 532 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 4: block and just through it through a sliding door, breaking 533 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:26,319 Speaker 4: the glass, which he'd never done before. But he used 534 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 4: his typical ruse, I'm just here on a fugitive blah 535 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 4: blah blah, don't worry, because he always believed if you 536 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,839 Speaker 4: put them at ease that they would survive. That would 537 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:39,719 Speaker 4: make them obviously more vulnerable and easier to manage. And 538 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 4: then he put her in her car. He always had 539 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 4: this thing with the people's cars, and that's always part 540 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 4: of his MO as well. So it's hard to say MO. 541 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,279 Speaker 4: He certainly didn't have the same MO, but he had 542 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,879 Speaker 4: there were similarities from one thing to another, even when 543 00:34:58,000 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 4: the MOO changed. 544 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 3: He didn't rape any of his victims, right, He did 545 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,400 Speaker 3: not rape any of his victims. And what was his 546 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 3: thought process behind that? If the crimes were sexual to him? 547 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:12,279 Speaker 3: What was going on with him? 548 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 4: Well, you can have a sexual crime without necessarily having 549 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 4: any kind of sexual penetration. It can like, for example, 550 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:26,320 Speaker 4: he hanged an eleven year old girl in the Otaro 551 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 4: case and masturbated onto her. Okay, so that's not rape physically, 552 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 4: but it's certainly, you know, a veryous sexual crime. He 553 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 4: masturbated in a couple of others using their lingerie. But 554 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 4: in many ways the binding was really about himself. He 555 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 4: would bind himself in a lot of auto erotic kinds 556 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 4: of incidents, So he'd take the items that he had 557 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 4: removed from the victims and fantasize about them while he 558 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,800 Speaker 4: was having an auto erotic event. 559 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:06,480 Speaker 3: BTK dehumanized and degraded his victims. It was a very 560 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 3: important part of the psychology, however, twisted driving his murders. 561 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,719 Speaker 4: So for him it was really reliving it. He had 562 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 4: these motel parties where he take dolls and pictures and 563 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 4: drawings he had made of the victims to relive it. 564 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,960 Speaker 4: And so he had this odd notion that if he 565 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 4: raped his victims it was somehow unfaithful to his wife. Wow, 566 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:37,240 Speaker 4: and yeah, it's an odd kind of mindset that certain 567 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 4: things and he's not going to cross the line, but 568 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 4: other things more extreme he will. Like when he first 569 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 4: started working with me, one of the earliest things he 570 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 4: said was we're going to start playing chess by mail, 571 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 4: and he said, don't cheat. I thought, well, what what there? 572 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 4: You a serial killer moralized to me? Yes, but that's 573 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:06,800 Speaker 4: you'll see that in a number of these killers, or 574 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,880 Speaker 4: they have these these kind of odd compartments where they 575 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 4: certain things are okay and other things are not okay. 576 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 3: And did he use the same type of bindings in 577 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,360 Speaker 3: each of his murders. 578 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:27,479 Speaker 4: He liked to experiment sometimes because he was reading either 579 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,760 Speaker 4: a novel about a serial killer or some true crime case, 580 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 4: and he sometimes would like to experiment. For example, getting 581 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 4: back to m he strangled each of the Otaro's, but 582 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,880 Speaker 4: the next victim he stabbed, and he found that he 583 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:46,480 Speaker 4: didn't like stabbing, so he then went back to strangulation. 584 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 4: And sometimes he'd use the cord, but he always bound them. 585 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 4: Sometimes he used that duct tape. He had some thick rope. 586 00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 4: He had some like Venetian cord, a parachute cord, had 587 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,920 Speaker 4: tape of all kinds, twine. He liked twine, So he 588 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 4: did have different kinds of bindings because ever since he 589 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 4: was a kid, he would collect all different kinds of 590 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 4: rope and string. 591 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,800 Speaker 3: And was he ever known to be trolling around like 592 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 3: Anderson or Pineville, Missouri the Ozarks at all during the 593 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 3: nineties early nineties. 594 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,959 Speaker 4: So for me, when I saw that this one case 595 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,560 Speaker 4: was in the area of Missouri that was pretty close 596 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 4: to an area where Dennis grew up and would sometimes 597 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:38,239 Speaker 4: take his kids spend summers, I thought, you know, that 598 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 4: made it a viable potential case. 599 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 3: And if Sean of Garber was hitchhiking, which a lot 600 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,920 Speaker 3: of law enforcement I've spoken to think she might have been, 601 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,080 Speaker 3: would he be the type of serial killer to pick 602 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:54,400 Speaker 3: her up. 603 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,719 Speaker 4: I've never heard Denis Raiders say he picked up a hitchhiker. 604 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 3: I had sent doctor Ramslin photos of the actual bindings 605 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,439 Speaker 3: used on Shauna and asked if those that Raider used 606 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:11,279 Speaker 3: were similar the same photos. I should point out that 607 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:15,120 Speaker 3: Detective Laurie Howard had shown Raider when she interviewed him, 608 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,680 Speaker 3: and Raider was shocked by how messy and how many 609 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:19,879 Speaker 3: of them there were. 610 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,440 Speaker 4: Some of the bindings on Shauna are very similar to 611 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 4: the ropes found and confiscated by police when Dennis was 612 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,600 Speaker 4: arrested in two thousand and five. Even he has commented 613 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 4: to me, because he's now seen the photos too, He's commented, Wow, 614 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 4: those are like some of the ropes they use, but 615 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:45,239 Speaker 4: not all of them. And I can't think of the 616 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:47,320 Speaker 4: time he used coaxial cables. 617 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 3: Raider had by now also denied killing Shauna Garber. So, 618 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 3: Shauna Garber was found with a towel wrapped around her 619 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:02,279 Speaker 3: face and the coaxle wrapped around that. You know, in 620 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,760 Speaker 3: your professional opinion, what does that say about her killer? 621 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 4: A lot of people like to think a covered base 622 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,800 Speaker 4: means it was personal, they knew her. That's a formula. 623 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 4: I personally don't like formulas because they tend to give 624 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 4: us tunnel vision. This looked more like part of whatever 625 00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 4: this person was doing to her, And especially with the 626 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 4: cable wrapped around it, that looks to me more like 627 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 4: a suffocation mechanism. If you put your hand of her 628 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,439 Speaker 4: mouth with a towel, she can't bite. 629 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,960 Speaker 3: It sounds like he adapted to the situations he needed 630 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:39,279 Speaker 3: he did. 631 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,319 Speaker 4: Yeah, but I think you can say that about any 632 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 4: serial killer because you're always going to have circumstances, the 633 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:51,320 Speaker 4: variables are there. Their fantasy never actually matches right, it happens. 634 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:55,400 Speaker 3: Thoughts in general about Shawna's case, I mean, what are 635 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:56,920 Speaker 3: you thinking about that case? 636 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 4: I think the Shawna one of the things that we 637 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:09,080 Speaker 4: see on her is the multiple bindings on her legs. 638 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:16,360 Speaker 4: That is interesting and that suggests captivity potentially that somebody 639 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,359 Speaker 4: held her and bound her, because why would they why 640 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 4: would they take her to a Now I know there's 641 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 4: there's theories that there were screams heard on Halloween night 642 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 4: in that gentle area, But who is binding her all 643 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 4: that much there on the farm that night? That doesn't 644 00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:38,400 Speaker 4: make any sense to me. That's a lot of bindings, 645 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:43,960 Speaker 4: which that suggests it's not about keeping her captive so 646 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:48,840 Speaker 4: much as the binding itself. But that's that's not something 647 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 4: that Rader would do. He wouldn't overbind like even he's 648 00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,719 Speaker 4: said that with that, that's a lot of bindings, and 649 00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:00,359 Speaker 4: he would have bound her in other ways. A lot 650 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 4: of it was focused on the legs and ankles, So 651 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:11,760 Speaker 4: that suggests somebody who perhaps overties things in other ways 652 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,360 Speaker 4: or overdoes things in other ways. There's an obsessive quality 653 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:15,719 Speaker 4: to it. 654 00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 3: Shawna's murder, what little is known about it, was anything 655 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:25,880 Speaker 3: but meticulous. I saw anger, haste, and retaliation in Shawna's murder. 656 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:32,040 Speaker 3: Those are not the trademarks of BTK. He planned, he fantasized, 657 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,160 Speaker 3: he took his time, he wanted his bindings to be 658 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:39,440 Speaker 3: just so. When I mentioned BTK had been shown photos 659 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:43,279 Speaker 3: of this crime scene, the distaste verging on disgust he 660 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:49,000 Speaker 3: emanated was palpable. Furthermore, the signatures he left behind at 661 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:54,880 Speaker 3: his crime scenes weren't found at Shawna's crime scene. Torture 662 00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:58,800 Speaker 3: was likely involved, but we'll cover that in an upcoming episode. 663 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,359 Speaker 3: That's why I just don't buy BTK being behind Shawna's murder. 664 00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,400 Speaker 3: And when I put it to law enforcement, they echoed 665 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:12,200 Speaker 3: my sentiments, specifically that Raider had no connection to Shawna's murder. 666 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,880 Speaker 3: I was convinced, after looking at all of the available 667 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,480 Speaker 3: evidence and conferring with law enforcement, that Dennis Btk Raider 668 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:24,040 Speaker 3: should be moved far down on a list of potential 669 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,480 Speaker 3: suspects in Shauna Garber's murder, if he even deserves a 670 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,400 Speaker 3: place on the list at all. And Raider, remember, was 671 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,759 Speaker 3: not even close to being on the radar in the 672 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:39,280 Speaker 3: Danas Stidham homicide, which brings me back to Jack Lenny. 673 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,920 Speaker 3: The goal with that first interview the BCSO conducted with 674 00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,960 Speaker 3: Lenny the tape you heard at the top of the episode, 675 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:53,880 Speaker 3: was to stir him up a bit, let him know 676 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,239 Speaker 3: they were focused on him, and see how he responded. 677 00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,759 Speaker 3: As it were, Lenny had told investors the Gators he 678 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,600 Speaker 3: was out of town at a family reunion on July 679 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:07,240 Speaker 3: twenty fifth, nineteen eighty nine, the day Dana went missing. 680 00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:12,720 Speaker 3: That was a lie. He had clocked eighty seven hours 681 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,319 Speaker 3: that week at a construction company he worked for in town, 682 00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:20,560 Speaker 3: a job, remember, which put him on the road, driving 683 00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:25,800 Speaker 3: around Bella Vista and bordering towns, including those close to 684 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:30,320 Speaker 3: the Missouri state line. In fact, the more they found 685 00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,719 Speaker 3: out about Lenny, the more he fit into the profile 686 00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,080 Speaker 3: of Dana and Shawna's killer. 687 00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,600 Speaker 8: And you know, from my perspective, there was some pretty 688 00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:46,840 Speaker 8: incriminating evidence in that basement of that house. 689 00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:52,000 Speaker 3: The BCSO secured those search warrants for Jacquelinese home and 690 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:56,560 Speaker 3: vehicles after they interviewed him a second time and after 691 00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:00,600 Speaker 3: finding a lot of blood and female hair in one 692 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,920 Speaker 3: of his vehicles. As they entered the basement of his house, 693 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 3: what they found pointed in the direction of what I 694 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,320 Speaker 3: could say is a serial killer. 695 00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,720 Speaker 11: My recollection is that there was probably like seventeen different 696 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:17,600 Speaker 11: types of twine that were used. 697 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:23,040 Speaker 8: To encase cocoon this young lady after she had been murdered. 698 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:29,759 Speaker 8: I just remember being in the basement of this individual's 699 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:33,880 Speaker 8: house and there had to been like over one hundred 700 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,960 Speaker 8: spools of different chords. I mean, I don't know who 701 00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:37,760 Speaker 8: keeps cords. 702 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,840 Speaker 11: I don't keep cords, but it just was pretty ominous. 703 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,480 Speaker 3: With all of the new information I had developed on him, 704 00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:49,680 Speaker 3: including all of that blood found in his vehicle, I 705 00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:53,920 Speaker 3: decided it was time to confront Jack Lenny, to knock 706 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,680 Speaker 3: on his door and see what this guy had to 707 00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:06,920 Speaker 3: say for himself. If you're enjoying Paper Ghosts. Check out 708 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:10,640 Speaker 3: my other podcasts, Crossing the Line with m William Phelps 709 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:15,680 Speaker 3: and White Eagle wherever you get your favorite shows coming 710 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:18,000 Speaker 3: up next time Paper Ghosts. 711 00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:22,080 Speaker 11: They were wanting to pin him down, very surprised that 712 00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:25,520 Speaker 11: he wanted to come in. You know, my initial reaction is, 713 00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:28,200 Speaker 11: you know this guy's coming in. Surely he's not the guy, right, 714 00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:31,800 Speaker 11: I mean, who does that? Something is going on with 715 00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:33,960 Speaker 11: this guy. I don't know what it is. I'm not 716 00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:36,000 Speaker 11: a doctor, I'm not a psychologist. I'm just trying to 717 00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:38,520 Speaker 11: get a read. But there was just something that was 718 00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:40,160 Speaker 11: clinically off. 719 00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:42,279 Speaker 2: He probably destroyed her life. 720 00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:46,840 Speaker 1: He just basically abused her emotionally, probably physically, and she 721 00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,280 Speaker 1: did kill herself shortly after. 722 00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:51,560 Speaker 2: BCSO Detectives spoke with her. 723 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:53,640 Speaker 4: I think probably she was at a praising point. 724 00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,880 Speaker 2: Because you better listen, that's my goddamn life, you and 725 00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:01,880 Speaker 2: they'll never find you. 726 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:07,759 Speaker 3: Paper Ghosts Season four is written and executive produced by 727 00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:12,560 Speaker 3: me and William Phelps. Script consulting by Rose Bachi, sound 728 00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:17,040 Speaker 3: design by Matt Russell, executive production by Catherine Law, and 729 00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:21,680 Speaker 3: audio editing and mixing by Brandon Dicker. The Takaboom Productions. 730 00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,280 Speaker 3: The series theme number four four to two is written 731 00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,640 Speaker 3: and performed by Thomas Phelps and Tom Moon.