WEBVTT - My Oldest, Dearest Friend 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:24.196 Pushkin, Hey, everybody, it's Jake. When we're making these shows, 0:00:24.476 --> 0:00:27.276 we talk to a lot of people, but we can't 0:00:27.316 --> 0:00:32.116 always include everyone's voices or everything they said. So what 0:00:32.156 --> 0:00:34.636 you're about to hear is a conversation that did not 0:00:34.916 --> 0:00:38.236 make our regular season, but which really gave me a 0:00:38.276 --> 0:00:41.996 lot of insight into Keith Giamanco, both as a man 0:00:42.396 --> 0:00:45.996 and as the boy he once was. Because this is 0:00:46.036 --> 0:00:49.916 a conversation with one of Keith's childhood buddies. In fact, 0:00:50.076 --> 0:00:54.516 Keith introduced him to me as my oldest dearest friend, 0:00:55.316 --> 0:00:58.996 a man named Mike Walton. Mike and Keith grew up 0:00:58.996 --> 0:01:02.556 together in Florescent, Missouri. They ran around with the other 0:01:02.596 --> 0:01:07.436 neighborhood kids, getting into various shenanigans. Later on, as adults, 0:01:07.516 --> 0:01:10.596 they ended up living very close to one another. Mike 0:01:10.676 --> 0:01:13.596 lived just as stone's throw away from the house that 0:01:13.676 --> 0:01:18.156 the police raided the night that Keith was arrested. Keith's 0:01:18.196 --> 0:01:22.436 arrest floored Mike in some ways. He's still scratching his 0:01:22.516 --> 0:01:25.876 head with questions. But when he looks back on that 0:01:26.076 --> 0:01:29.436 time when Keith was on his crime spree, there are 0:01:29.516 --> 0:01:33.556 a few moments that stick out. Small moments the kind 0:01:33.596 --> 0:01:37.916 that didn't seem important then, but now, looking back, feel 0:01:37.956 --> 0:01:41.676 like clues or perhaps even omens of what was to come. 0:01:42.916 --> 0:01:45.676 When I spoke with Mike, he told me about one 0:01:45.716 --> 0:01:48.876 such moment. It occurred during the year leading up to 0:01:48.956 --> 0:01:52.516 Keith's arrest. At the time, Mike was working as a 0:01:52.556 --> 0:01:56.316 salesman at an auto dealership. One day he got a 0:01:56.316 --> 0:01:57.516 call from Keith. 0:01:57.836 --> 0:02:00.076 And he's like, hey, Mike. He goes, I was in 0:02:00.316 --> 0:02:03.076 Philadelphia somewhere with his girlfriend over a week and he goes, 0:02:03.076 --> 0:02:04.516 I left my wall, and he goes, you think I 0:02:04.516 --> 0:02:07.676 can borrow a hundred bucks? And I worked at the dealership. 0:02:07.716 --> 0:02:10.036 I was making really good money. I said, sure, Keith, 0:02:10.076 --> 0:02:12.916 come on up, came up, gave him one hundred dollars, 0:02:12.916 --> 0:02:15.076 and he says, I'll call you when I got your money. 0:02:15.916 --> 0:02:17.636 You know. About a week later he called me and 0:02:17.836 --> 0:02:20.676 paid me my money back. Then he asked me again, 0:02:20.876 --> 0:02:23.516 you know, to borrow some money. A couple of weeks later. 0:02:24.116 --> 0:02:27.916 So again Mike loans Keith a hundred bucks, and again 0:02:28.156 --> 0:02:31.956 Keith gets the money to pay him back. At that time, 0:02:32.236 --> 0:02:35.156 Keith was living in the little shoe box house, the 0:02:35.156 --> 0:02:38.996 one he moved into after the foreclosure Keith was sleeping 0:02:38.996 --> 0:02:41.236 on the couch so his daughters could each have their 0:02:41.276 --> 0:02:46.116 own room. Mike didn't know much about Keith's financial troubles. 0:02:46.796 --> 0:02:50.196 Keith tended to keep problems tucked away out of sight, 0:02:50.836 --> 0:02:55.356 even from old friends. Anyway, Mike swings by Keith's house 0:02:55.476 --> 0:02:58.996 to pick up the money he's owed, and Mike still 0:02:59.036 --> 0:03:01.476 remembers the scene when. 0:03:01.276 --> 0:03:03.956 I went over there and there was a table sitting there, 0:03:04.076 --> 0:03:07.196 a coffee table, a couch and stuff, and he had 0:03:07.196 --> 0:03:09.956 a stack of hundreds on the man all there and 0:03:09.956 --> 0:03:12.876 he's like, here, you know, grab your hundred, and he 0:03:12.956 --> 0:03:15.876 handed me one. I was like, cool, man, I said, 0:03:15.916 --> 0:03:18.036 no problem. I asked him, you know, what are you 0:03:18.076 --> 0:03:20.876 doing on I'm day trading, and I thought he was 0:03:20.916 --> 0:03:25.076 doing good on day trade, you know, And apparently he 0:03:25.156 --> 0:03:27.756 wasn't doing good on day trade, and he was doing 0:03:27.796 --> 0:03:29.276 good on bankrupt. 0:03:35.516 --> 0:03:39.476 Mike never suspected what was really going on at the time, 0:03:39.716 --> 0:03:42.676 Like so many people around Saint Louis, he and his 0:03:42.716 --> 0:03:45.836 wife were following the story of the boony Hat bandit, 0:03:46.436 --> 0:03:49.916 but it never occurred to him, not even for a second, 0:03:50.316 --> 0:03:54.156 that the man behind those robberies was his friend Keith. 0:03:55.316 --> 0:03:58.316 Why hadn't Keith opened up to Mike about the trouble 0:03:58.356 --> 0:04:01.796 he was in before he robbed those banks? I mean, 0:04:02.116 --> 0:04:05.676 a figure, If Keith needed help, wouldn't he turn to 0:04:05.756 --> 0:04:12.556 his oldest dearest friend. Is a curious thing, especially male friendship, 0:04:12.636 --> 0:04:17.556 where often much goes unseid. Being a guy myself, I 0:04:17.596 --> 0:04:21.076 have some sense of this. So what does it say 0:04:21.116 --> 0:04:25.876 about us as men that sometimes we prize loyalty and 0:04:26.036 --> 0:04:30.796 pride over intimacy? And why do we sometimes not see 0:04:30.916 --> 0:04:39.396 the things that are right in front of us? I'm 0:04:39.476 --> 0:04:43.476 Jay Calpern, and this is deep cover the Family Man 0:04:44.116 --> 0:04:57.716 today's episode. My oldest dearest friend. Mike and Keith grew 0:04:57.796 --> 0:05:01.596 up together. They knew each other's families. In fact, listening 0:05:01.596 --> 0:05:04.956 to Mike's memories of their childhood, it almost sounded like 0:05:05.076 --> 0:05:05.996 they were family. 0:05:06.916 --> 0:05:09.476 Keith really liked my dad because my da, you know, 0:05:09.556 --> 0:05:11.476 did what he could for him because he knew he 0:05:11.516 --> 0:05:14.756 didn't have one here. And I ain't saying he doesn't 0:05:14.796 --> 0:05:16.716 have a daddy. He had a dad, but we never 0:05:16.756 --> 0:05:19.756 heard from him, We never seen him. I never met him. 0:05:21.556 --> 0:05:25.156 What was his mom like? She was a cook at 0:05:25.756 --> 0:05:31.916 Snooks the grocery store, and she was great Marge was 0:05:31.956 --> 0:05:35.836 her name, and I loved her just like my mom. 0:05:36.996 --> 0:05:40.436 She was a very very pleasant lady to be around, 0:05:40.516 --> 0:05:43.756 let's say, you know. But she was a single mom, 0:05:44.436 --> 0:05:47.796 you know, so didn't really get to see her much. 0:05:47.836 --> 0:05:50.276 I was always over there with Keith and we'd stay 0:05:50.276 --> 0:05:50.996 out of her hair. 0:05:52.676 --> 0:05:56.676 Mike and Keith's friendship has that easy quality that says 0:05:57.036 --> 0:06:00.036 you were there for it all the good, the bad, 0:06:00.436 --> 0:06:01.916 and the mischievous. 0:06:02.316 --> 0:06:03.916 You know. Come on, we were growing up in this 0:06:03.996 --> 0:06:07.236 neighborhood and we broke into one house down at the 0:06:07.316 --> 0:06:09.276 end of the street. We were all a little kids, 0:06:09.356 --> 0:06:11.836 you know. They were on vacation, and we knew they 0:06:11.876 --> 0:06:15.196 were on vacation, and we got some biscuits out of 0:06:15.236 --> 0:06:18.196 the ice box. We weren't in there stealing money or nothing. 0:06:18.236 --> 0:06:22.556 We were just in there being kids and taking the 0:06:22.676 --> 0:06:25.556 little kids across the street with us. You know. There 0:06:25.636 --> 0:06:27.236 was like four or five of us went in his 0:06:27.316 --> 0:06:31.556 house and just tore it up. That we didn't steal nothing, No, 0:06:31.756 --> 0:06:35.316 but I guess we did steal some biscuit though that 0:06:35.476 --> 0:06:37.716 was about it. That was not as much of a 0:06:37.756 --> 0:06:42.916 life of crime as you'd seen. Keith participated. Absolutely, that 0:06:43.036 --> 0:06:46.556 was the only prime I've seen him participate with me, 0:06:46.676 --> 0:06:49.516 and you know, if he did stuff with other people 0:06:49.556 --> 0:06:51.276 after that, I never knew about it. 0:06:52.156 --> 0:06:54.796 So they got into a little trouble as kids, stealing 0:06:54.836 --> 0:06:58.836 biscuit dough from the neighbor's house. Good clean, Midwestern fun, 0:06:59.396 --> 0:07:03.716 think the little rascals. As they grew up, they remained friends. 0:07:04.316 --> 0:07:07.916 Keith's wife, Becky, even watched Mike's children for a period 0:07:07.956 --> 0:07:11.756 of time, but they weren't as close as they once were, 0:07:12.196 --> 0:07:15.676 and Mike never knew about Keith's financial problems. 0:07:15.996 --> 0:07:18.516 I knew him and Becky had split up, that she 0:07:18.676 --> 0:07:21.316 wasn't living with him no more and it was just 0:07:21.396 --> 0:07:24.756 him and the daughters, But I had no inclination that 0:07:24.836 --> 0:07:28.476 they weren't making it. You know, he had a nice 0:07:28.516 --> 0:07:31.516 house and I go over there and wasn't like they're 0:07:31.556 --> 0:07:36.036 wasting food and stuff. So you had no idea really 0:07:36.076 --> 0:07:39.796 that he was in financial trouble. No, he didn't put 0:07:39.796 --> 0:07:42.876 that out at all to me. You know, he told 0:07:42.916 --> 0:07:45.956 me he was a day trader and what I thought 0:07:45.996 --> 0:07:46.796 he was doing good. 0:07:47.356 --> 0:07:49.836 Why do you think, Mike, I mean, like you obviously 0:07:49.876 --> 0:07:52.236 are someone that he that he trusts, and he knows 0:07:52.276 --> 0:07:55.396 you have long old friendship, what's your what's your best 0:07:55.396 --> 0:07:56.116 bet for why? 0:07:56.796 --> 0:07:56.996 Why? 0:07:57.156 --> 0:07:58.796 I mean you? Of all people, it seems there could 0:07:58.836 --> 0:08:00.396 be someone that he could tell, but he was having 0:08:00.396 --> 0:08:00.956 a hard time. 0:08:01.476 --> 0:08:03.916 I mean, I don't know if he thought I wouldn't 0:08:04.276 --> 0:08:07.476 help him out. You know, I was in a position 0:08:07.596 --> 0:08:09.796 at that time. You know, if he needed a little help, 0:08:09.836 --> 0:08:12.716 I could have helped him. Maybe he was too proud 0:08:12.796 --> 0:08:17.316 to ask, So I don't know. I just don't think 0:08:17.356 --> 0:08:19.076 he would have ever came and said, hey, Mike, you 0:08:19.076 --> 0:08:22.156 know I need a thousand dollars. Hey, Mike, I need 0:08:22.196 --> 0:08:24.756 a hundred's one thing, but you know I need a 0:08:24.836 --> 0:08:28.916 thousands another thing. Then I would have started prying. You know, hey, 0:08:28.996 --> 0:08:31.916 what's going on? What are you doing? 0:08:32.796 --> 0:08:36.276 That makes perfect sense to me. Keith probably understood that 0:08:36.636 --> 0:08:39.876 a hundred dollars ask could fly under the radar, but 0:08:40.236 --> 0:08:45.076 a thousand dollars ask not so much. Mike says that 0:08:45.236 --> 0:08:48.396 he was well positioned to help his friend financially because 0:08:48.716 --> 0:08:50.836 he was making good money as a car salesman. 0:08:51.836 --> 0:08:55.116 I worked at a local Chevy dealer, started as a 0:08:55.156 --> 0:08:58.996 porter for five years and worked my way into sales 0:08:59.076 --> 0:09:02.836 and I ended up being their top truck salesman for 0:09:02.876 --> 0:09:06.156 a bunch of years. That's why I said, you know, 0:09:06.236 --> 0:09:09.316 I was making great money. I could have helped if 0:09:09.356 --> 0:09:11.676 he you know, if he really came to me and said, hey, Mike, 0:09:11.916 --> 0:09:14.596 you know this is the deal. I haven't gave him 0:09:14.636 --> 0:09:18.756 the money here, pay me back when you can. I 0:09:18.796 --> 0:09:20.756 would have kept him from robbing a bank if I 0:09:20.756 --> 0:09:23.276 could have helped him. So you were good at your job. 0:09:23.316 --> 0:09:25.156 You were at the top top truck salesman. 0:09:26.156 --> 0:09:30.236 Oh yeah, for a few few years doing that line 0:09:30.276 --> 0:09:30.676 of work. 0:09:30.796 --> 0:09:33.316 I think you would probably have to be pretty good 0:09:33.316 --> 0:09:34.116 at reading people. 0:09:34.156 --> 0:09:37.636 Am I right about that? Oh yeah, I'm a great 0:09:37.996 --> 0:09:41.596 guess one thing in car sales, you got thirty seconds 0:09:42.036 --> 0:09:44.876 to read somebody. I could tell you in thirty seconds 0:09:44.876 --> 0:09:46.276 if I was going to sell a car or not, 0:09:47.316 --> 0:09:52.436 and I couldn't read Keith. It's still to this day 0:09:52.556 --> 0:09:55.396 it makes me think, you know, how good was that? 0:09:56.556 --> 0:09:59.876 Because yeah, I mean I thirty seconds I knew if 0:09:59.916 --> 0:10:03.276 I was selling a car or not. How many years 0:10:03.316 --> 0:10:06.636 did I know Keith before? I you know, I couldn't 0:10:06.676 --> 0:10:10.236 read him to be robbing a bank, you know, So 0:10:10.276 --> 0:10:14.436 he was good at not expressing. 0:10:20.876 --> 0:10:23.676 We've talked in this series about how parents hide things 0:10:23.676 --> 0:10:27.116 from their kids to protect them from hard truths about 0:10:27.116 --> 0:10:30.636 the world, and sometimes to protect the parents from hard 0:10:30.676 --> 0:10:35.476 truths about themselves. But it's telling that Keith was doing 0:10:35.516 --> 0:10:38.596 that with Mike too. I mean, this is the man 0:10:38.636 --> 0:10:43.396 whom Keith described as his oldest, dearest friend, whose dad 0:10:43.476 --> 0:10:46.636 was like a stand in for Keith's dad. Their history 0:10:47.196 --> 0:10:50.636 it went deep. I think that if there was anyone 0:10:50.756 --> 0:10:54.356 Keith could level with and reach out to, it'd be Mike. 0:10:55.756 --> 0:10:59.676 But I also get their silence. I grew up in Buffalo, 0:11:00.036 --> 0:11:04.796 and I knew guys like Mike and Keith. I knew teachers, coaches, 0:11:04.996 --> 0:11:08.276 and other dads who sounded a lot like them. When 0:11:08.276 --> 0:11:11.876 they hung out, they had this ease with one another. 0:11:12.356 --> 0:11:16.276 You could feel the history between them. Sure, sometimes they 0:11:16.276 --> 0:11:19.556 were awkward, the way guys can be, but you could 0:11:19.596 --> 0:11:24.076 also sense among them a kind of stoic, gruff kindness, 0:11:24.716 --> 0:11:28.996 a brotherhood that came with shoveling each other's walkways and 0:11:29.156 --> 0:11:32.636 showing up at funerals and driving each other's kids to school. 0:11:33.956 --> 0:11:36.796 Growing up, I admired a lot of men like this, 0:11:37.756 --> 0:11:40.396 but I didn't often see them set down their bottle 0:11:40.476 --> 0:11:43.836 of the Bat's Blue after a Bill's game and just 0:11:44.156 --> 0:11:49.236 talk about their deepest fears or their shortcomings. I mention 0:11:49.356 --> 0:11:51.956 all this not because I think there was any kind 0:11:51.996 --> 0:11:55.516 of failure here in Mike and Keith's friendship. I bring 0:11:55.556 --> 0:11:59.396 it up because the context of their friendship feels both 0:11:59.436 --> 0:12:03.716 familiar and illuminating to me. It helps me understand Keith's 0:12:03.756 --> 0:12:07.516 mindset leading up to the crime spree. It helps me 0:12:07.676 --> 0:12:11.116 put myself in his shoes, even if just for a 0:12:11.116 --> 0:12:16.716 little bit, I imagine feeling squeezed and scared and so 0:12:16.836 --> 0:12:20.236 alone that even with my closest friend, I had to 0:12:20.236 --> 0:12:24.396 put on a show of being happy and trouble free. 0:12:24.516 --> 0:12:29.036 And I'm reminded of that Henry David Thureaux quote, the 0:12:29.076 --> 0:12:39.356 mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. We'll be 0:12:39.436 --> 0:13:01.556 right back one day. Back in September two thousand and eight, 0:13:02.316 --> 0:13:06.476 Mike learned the truth that his longtime friend Keith had 0:13:06.476 --> 0:13:08.036 been living a double life. 0:13:08.956 --> 0:13:12.876 At work at this local dealership. And I got a 0:13:12.876 --> 0:13:15.516 call from my sister and she's like, turn on the news. 0:13:15.556 --> 0:13:19.476 They're interviewing Dad right now. Keith got arrested for Robin Banks. 0:13:19.476 --> 0:13:24.076 He's the boony Hat bandit. So I was selling a car, 0:13:24.156 --> 0:13:26.316 and I told these people, I said, here, give me 0:13:26.356 --> 0:13:28.636 a minute. I went downstairs where I was working to 0:13:28.676 --> 0:13:33.036 turn the TV on, and they're interviewing my sister and 0:13:33.156 --> 0:13:37.076 my dad and stuff, you know, and I was like, wow, 0:13:37.956 --> 0:13:39.796 how do you wrap your head around that? When she 0:13:39.876 --> 0:13:46.996 says that it was tough, you know, I couldn't believe 0:13:47.036 --> 0:13:48.676 it at first, That's what I said. Me and my 0:13:48.756 --> 0:13:50.996 wife had to go back and really look at these 0:13:51.036 --> 0:13:54.796 pictures they were putting on TV. And you know, back 0:13:54.836 --> 0:13:57.596 in eight the cameras, I guess wasn't that great, but 0:13:57.956 --> 0:14:00.756 they had their blurry pictures of them and stuff, and 0:14:00.796 --> 0:14:02.876 me and my wife we were looking at the TV 0:14:03.036 --> 0:14:05.716 after he got caught, and it's like, man, I can 0:14:05.796 --> 0:14:06.836 see the resemblance. 0:14:08.556 --> 0:14:11.276 Would you have if someone at the time asked you, like, 0:14:11.316 --> 0:14:13.236 who do you think the boony Hat band it is? 0:14:13.316 --> 0:14:15.036 I mean, who would you have thought it would have been? 0:14:15.476 --> 0:14:17.516 I would have had to look at the pictures better, 0:14:17.556 --> 0:14:20.476 you know, because I wouldn't have one thing. I did 0:14:20.716 --> 0:14:24.316 never think that it was a friend of mine. Not 0:14:24.596 --> 0:14:26.796 one time did I think the Boonie Hat band it 0:14:26.876 --> 0:14:30.356 was somebody I would have known. It was a shock 0:14:30.436 --> 0:14:32.156 to me to say the least. 0:14:33.436 --> 0:14:36.916 Suddenly Mike is looking at all his memories of Keith 0:14:37.276 --> 0:14:41.716 through an entirely different lens. That borrowed money, the stack 0:14:41.756 --> 0:14:46.036 of hundreds, this weird set of facts that kind of 0:14:46.076 --> 0:14:48.436 added up, but not really. 0:14:49.836 --> 0:14:51.916 I mean, when I walked in that house, there was 0:14:51.996 --> 0:14:55.636 no nothing that would make me think, oh man, this 0:14:55.716 --> 0:14:57.596 guy must have just robbed a bank. Look at all 0:14:57.596 --> 0:15:00.316 these hundreds. That wasn't what I thought. I mean, the 0:15:00.316 --> 0:15:03.476 way he talked about day trading, he didn't tell me 0:15:03.476 --> 0:15:07.196 he wasn't doing good in it. Obviously he wasn't going 0:15:07.276 --> 0:15:08.836 to tell me that or else then I would have 0:15:08.836 --> 0:15:12.516 probably we questioned, hey, where'd you get these hundreds? But 0:15:12.956 --> 0:15:15.316 the two times he borrowed that money from me, I 0:15:15.356 --> 0:15:20.196 got two Chris one hundred dollars bills back. So it 0:15:20.276 --> 0:15:22.796 was like right after he borrowed it from me and 0:15:22.796 --> 0:15:24.716 then had to rob a bank to pay me back. 0:15:25.436 --> 0:15:29.036 Yeah, I mean, like, how'd he explain the fact that, like, 0:15:29.276 --> 0:15:32.676 one week he's asking you to borrow a hundred bucks 0:15:32.676 --> 0:15:34.676 and then when you go to repaan he's got a 0:15:34.676 --> 0:15:35.956 stack on hundreds. 0:15:36.796 --> 0:15:39.156 Well, like I said, the first time his girlfriend he 0:15:39.196 --> 0:15:42.196 said his girlfriend was in Philadelphia, or something, and he 0:15:42.276 --> 0:15:44.476 came back and he forgot his wallet. That was the 0:15:44.516 --> 0:15:47.356 first time, and the second time. I just gave him 0:15:47.356 --> 0:15:52.396 the money. You know. I didn't cry, let's see, And 0:15:52.436 --> 0:15:54.516 I kind of wish I would have, but I guess 0:15:54.636 --> 0:15:56.596 it wouldn't have mattered if I did, because he had 0:15:56.596 --> 0:15:58.316 already started robbing the banks. 0:15:58.476 --> 0:16:00.996 WHOA did he seem nervous at all? 0:16:02.156 --> 0:16:07.396 No, not at all, not whatsoever, you know. And shit, 0:16:07.436 --> 0:16:09.396 if I hadn't known he was robbing banks as hell, 0:16:09.396 --> 0:16:11.716 I wouldn't have went to his house thinking, man, I 0:16:11.796 --> 0:16:15.476 might get over there and then they're gonna raid him. 0:16:15.596 --> 0:16:17.716 You know, I would have never went over there. 0:16:19.036 --> 0:16:21.196 So he was just like calm as could be when 0:16:21.196 --> 0:16:21.876 he went over there. 0:16:22.596 --> 0:16:24.716 Yeah, he was on his computer doing his thing. 0:16:26.436 --> 0:16:28.396 Do you think that like he had some like off 0:16:28.436 --> 0:16:31.476 switch in his brain where he could like compartmentalize it 0:16:31.596 --> 0:16:34.756 or something, because like, honestly, Mike, if I had just 0:16:34.836 --> 0:16:37.156 robbed the bank and I had, I think I'd be 0:16:37.196 --> 0:16:40.716 a hot mess. I'd be nervous about getting taught and everything. 0:16:41.276 --> 0:16:44.756 I'd be up walking the windows and all that stuff. No, 0:16:45.356 --> 0:16:49.276 he was just Keith sitting at the computer. You know. Here, 0:16:49.436 --> 0:16:53.476 here's your money. You know, what are you doing now, Keith? 0:16:53.516 --> 0:16:55.996 I'm day trade and I don't know a whole lot 0:16:56.036 --> 0:16:59.276 about that day trade and stuff. So I just thought 0:16:59.316 --> 0:17:03.276 he was, you know, doing his job. And when I 0:17:03.596 --> 0:17:05.996 went over there, I mean, he's on the computer doing 0:17:06.036 --> 0:17:09.556 something I didn't look to see, you know, maybe another 0:17:09.636 --> 0:17:11.676 map up of the next bank he was gonna get 0:17:11.796 --> 0:17:12.756 or something. I don't know. 0:17:13.756 --> 0:17:16.116 Do you think that his brain works differently than yours, 0:17:16.116 --> 0:17:17.796 that he would be able to be that calm like. 0:17:17.796 --> 0:17:22.196 That and must have you know, I mean, he wasn't, 0:17:22.756 --> 0:17:25.396 never took off nervous to me, even when he was 0:17:25.556 --> 0:17:28.516 borrowing one hundred dollars from me. I didn't think nothing 0:17:28.556 --> 0:17:32.236 about it. Nothing. It was Keith. You know Keith I've 0:17:32.276 --> 0:17:36.316 known since I was three years old. Here you go, buddy, 0:17:37.156 --> 0:17:41.276 pay me back when you get it. And there was 0:17:41.476 --> 0:17:44.836 no He was calm, cool and collective. 0:17:47.636 --> 0:17:49.476 Did it make you feel like he might not really 0:17:49.516 --> 0:17:51.036 know this guy as well as he thought you. 0:17:50.996 --> 0:17:57.036 Did at that time? You know, that's obviously at that time. 0:17:58.276 --> 0:18:00.236 You know, I knew Keith, but I didn't know him 0:18:00.236 --> 0:18:03.316 that good to where I would have thought he would 0:18:03.516 --> 0:18:04.276 rob a bank. 0:18:08.356 --> 0:18:13.596 There's this Icelandic saying, roughly translated, it goes keen is 0:18:13.636 --> 0:18:17.996 the eye of the guest, the idea being that sometimes 0:18:18.036 --> 0:18:22.196 being a stranger means you see things more clearly, because 0:18:22.516 --> 0:18:26.196 being overly familiar with a person or a place, well, 0:18:26.836 --> 0:18:28.916 it can kind of put you to sleep so that 0:18:29.156 --> 0:18:33.876 you miss things. So often we believe that intimacy means 0:18:34.076 --> 0:18:37.956 knowing someone well, but in some ways the opposite is true. 0:18:38.436 --> 0:18:43.036 Intimacy means not knowing someone or seeing important aspects of 0:18:43.116 --> 0:18:47.076 who they are or who they have become, because after 0:18:47.116 --> 0:18:50.636 a while, we just stop looking, just like we stop 0:18:50.716 --> 0:18:52.996 looking at the artwork that hangs in our living room 0:18:53.396 --> 0:18:57.396 or the crack on our bedroom wall. Basically, we stop 0:18:57.436 --> 0:19:01.236 paying attention to the details in our lives, especially if 0:19:01.236 --> 0:19:10.716 those details and their implications might invite unpleasant questions. But 0:19:10.796 --> 0:19:14.956 after Keith's arrest, Mike was being forced to see, and 0:19:15.276 --> 0:19:18.596 just like Marissa and Elise, the media was now hounding 0:19:18.676 --> 0:19:19.596 him to speak. 0:19:21.236 --> 0:19:23.676 They kept calling me wanting me to do an interview 0:19:23.676 --> 0:19:26.436 with him on the news and stuff, and I told him, 0:19:26.476 --> 0:19:28.756 I said, no, I'm not going to do it. You know, 0:19:28.836 --> 0:19:30.716 I said, I'm not going to sit and talk bad 0:19:30.756 --> 0:19:33.516 about a friend of mine that had an issue. You know, 0:19:33.636 --> 0:19:37.996 everybody has issues, and I knew it would come out, 0:19:38.116 --> 0:19:42.796 you know, what was going on and why. And obviously 0:19:42.796 --> 0:19:45.356 I didn't get to speak with Keith after he got arrested. 0:19:46.276 --> 0:19:49.116 But now I wasn't going to I don't care what 0:19:49.156 --> 0:19:51.316 he did. I wasn't going to say bad stuff about him, 0:19:51.316 --> 0:19:52.996 you know, And that's all they wanted. They didn't want 0:19:52.996 --> 0:19:55.156 to hear none of the good stuff. They blew my 0:19:55.236 --> 0:19:57.916 phone up. I mean blew it up. I had to 0:19:57.916 --> 0:19:59.716 block so many numbers. It was a joke. 0:20:00.916 --> 0:20:04.116 I think Mike did feel protective of his friend, but 0:20:04.476 --> 0:20:06.676 I also wonder if part of the reason he didn't 0:20:06.716 --> 0:20:09.636 speak to the media was that he himself he was 0:20:09.636 --> 0:20:13.756 struggling to make sense of Keith's actions. What could he say? 0:20:15.076 --> 0:20:18.556 Even now, all these years later, he says he still 0:20:18.596 --> 0:20:19.876 can't fully understand it. 0:20:20.796 --> 0:20:23.316 I can't figure out what made him go that way 0:20:23.396 --> 0:20:29.156 because I got three kids and I couldn't have fathom 0:20:29.596 --> 0:20:34.196 doing what he did. But I wasn't in the position 0:20:34.356 --> 0:20:38.236 he was in at the time. You know, I can't 0:20:38.356 --> 0:20:41.676 justify what he did in any means, but I know this. 0:20:42.076 --> 0:20:44.396 You know, you do the crime, you pay your time, 0:20:44.516 --> 0:20:47.316 and as far as I'm concerned, you know, he did 0:20:47.356 --> 0:20:52.596 his time over his time, probably, I think they might 0:20:52.676 --> 0:20:55.116 have run him into the ground a little bit on 0:20:55.156 --> 0:20:59.676 the sensing because there's people out here killing people getting 0:20:59.716 --> 0:21:03.356 out of jail quicker than he did, which I think 0:21:03.436 --> 0:21:06.116 isn't right. You know, he didn't kill anybody, but I 0:21:06.156 --> 0:21:09.596 know he terrorized a lot of people. When you rob 0:21:09.636 --> 0:21:13.316 eleven banks to get caught on the twelfth one, there's 0:21:13.436 --> 0:21:16.516 you know, at least twelve people that you traumatized that 0:21:16.596 --> 0:21:19.996 I know of, And I mean, I don't know where 0:21:19.996 --> 0:21:20.796 to go from that. 0:21:20.916 --> 0:21:24.276 You know, did you feel when you found out that 0:21:24.556 --> 0:21:27.916 he had been kind of living this double life? Did 0:21:27.956 --> 0:21:28.996 it unsettle you? 0:21:28.996 --> 0:21:33.196 Would? All? It bothered me that he was capable of 0:21:33.196 --> 0:21:36.556 doing something so stupid, You know, That's the way I 0:21:36.596 --> 0:21:42.716 look at it. I mean, I got three kids, and 0:21:42.796 --> 0:21:44.996 I couldn't have done nothing like that, knowing that if 0:21:45.036 --> 0:21:47.996 I got caught, I was going to prison. There's no 0:21:48.076 --> 0:21:50.916 way I would have done anything like that. You know, 0:21:50.956 --> 0:21:54.156 I ain't saying I was the best person in town. 0:21:54.236 --> 0:21:56.676 I mean I had my bibbles and dabbles too, you know, 0:21:56.716 --> 0:22:00.396 don't get me wrong, But when it came down to 0:22:00.476 --> 0:22:04.396 my kids. You know, they were my kids. I would 0:22:04.436 --> 0:22:06.476 have had to do anything I could for him. And 0:22:06.516 --> 0:22:09.876 that's the way I felt. Keith must have felt when 0:22:09.876 --> 0:22:13.476 he was robbing these banks that that was his best resort. 0:22:13.596 --> 0:22:16.356 But it wasn't. I know, he didn't think it was 0:22:16.396 --> 0:22:19.356 the right thing to do, but I can't believe he 0:22:19.436 --> 0:22:22.356 thought that was the way he needed to handle things. 0:22:22.796 --> 0:22:25.036 It didn't make me think less of him, It just 0:22:25.756 --> 0:22:29.636 it made me think, you know, why would you go 0:22:29.756 --> 0:22:32.956 to do something that you're going to try to help 0:22:32.996 --> 0:22:35.676 your daughters with, knowing if you get caught you're not 0:22:35.716 --> 0:22:37.636 going to have your daughters. You ain't gonna get to 0:22:37.676 --> 0:22:40.836 raise them no more. That's the only thing that really 0:22:41.476 --> 0:22:43.996 gets me is, you know, how did you not think that? 0:22:44.956 --> 0:22:47.636 Why would you not think you weren't thinking about your 0:22:47.716 --> 0:22:50.156 daughters trying to keep them in school, That's the way 0:22:50.156 --> 0:22:53.076 I feel about it. You were thinking about something different 0:22:53.156 --> 0:22:56.436 because what he was doing was going to take him 0:22:56.436 --> 0:22:58.596 away from his daughters, and you know, he didn't get 0:22:58.596 --> 0:23:01.556 to see him graduate, he didn't get to go to 0:23:01.596 --> 0:23:03.516 his mom's funeral, he didn't get to do a lot 0:23:03.516 --> 0:23:07.116 of things because of his decision. What do you think 0:23:07.156 --> 0:23:11.436 he was thinking a guy, if not his daughter's I 0:23:11.476 --> 0:23:15.196 wish I knew. I really don't. I don't know. He 0:23:15.276 --> 0:23:18.316 wasn't thinking as far as I'm concerned. You know, how 0:23:18.316 --> 0:23:19.476 can you say you were thinking. 0:23:21.356 --> 0:23:25.636 Have you talked to Keith since he got out about 0:23:26.276 --> 0:23:28.676 why he did what he did or what his thinking was? 0:23:30.276 --> 0:23:33.716 No, No, we haven't really sat down now. I'm not 0:23:33.836 --> 0:23:38.476 one to pry. You know, I don't live in the past. 0:23:38.796 --> 0:23:40.996 That's one thing I won't do. You know, living in 0:23:40.996 --> 0:23:44.316 the past is not good. I'll visit there, but that's 0:23:44.316 --> 0:23:44.916