WEBVTT - Rosanne Cash 0:00:08.360 --> 0:00:08.840 Pushkin. 0:00:12.160 --> 0:00:14.440 Just a quick note here. You can listen to all 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:17.280 of the music mentioned in this episode on our playlist, 0:00:17.320 --> 0:00:19.400 which you can find a link to in the show 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:23.160 notes for licensing reasons. Each time a song is referenced 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:28.400 in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect. All right, 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:30.720 enjoyed the episode? 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:34.120 Do you recognize who that is? That's one of the 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:39.839 most distinctive voices in modern music, Roseanne Cash Country Music Royalty. 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:44.800 She's been making extraordinary music for forty years and that's 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:47.680 the beginning of the title track to her latest album, 0:00:47.960 --> 0:00:51.839 She Remembers Everything you know. I recently looked back at 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:55.760 some country music charts. Thirty years ago, the average age 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:58.040 of the artist in the top ten was thirty five. 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:04.000 Today is twenty. Country music is losing interest in its elders, 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:08.400 which is a shame, because it's elders are better than ever. 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:14.440 I'm Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to broken Record This week. 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:17.600 My colleague Bruce Headlam sits down with Rose end Cash 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:21.240 and her husband and musical partner John Leventhal at the 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:25.919 Bridge Studio in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, to play some amazing music 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:27.720 and tell a few stories. 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:34.199 The name of the album is she remembers everything, which 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:40.800 it's an ambiguous, difficult song. The phrase on its own 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:43.160 seems to have taken a lot a lot of meaning. 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:47.320 Right now, how did you intend that to be received? 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:51.000 I intended it as both a threat and a common 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:56.240 And I wrote the lyrics to this song in Sam Phillips, 0:01:56.960 --> 0:02:00.320 who is just a beautiful woman in a beautiful song writer. 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:03.080 She wrote the music. It was the first time we 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:07.400 ever wrote a song together, and I was when I 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:12.160 wrote the lyrics. I was thinking about trauma, early trauma 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:18.240 and a woman's memory and how many things we lock up, 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:22.520 and that it there's some comfort in thinking that it 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:26.440 was a woman's memory is like a library. You may 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:29.240 not know right off the bat every book that's on 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:30.919 the shelf, but you could go in there and pull 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:36.560 it out. And there's also some rage in that song. 0:02:37.400 --> 0:02:40.360 In a way, it's prescient because this was before the 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:43.160 Me Too movement, before the Kavanaugh hearings, you know, when 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:48.919 every woman I know felt completely crushed and discounted, and 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:51.800 you know, we were told that we couldn't even trust 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:55.120 our own memories. And the song actually took on greater 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:56.919 residence for me after that. 0:02:57.440 --> 0:02:59.720 It's striking how it did, and we both really I 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:02.440 remember the day we both realized it, like we just 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:06.560 looked at each other and go, you have just entered 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:08.600 the zeitgeist at the exact right moment. 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:12.119 But it was personal and it's not like all those 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:14.680 things didn't exist before for millions. 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:17.959 Of women, you know, was that the kind of trauma 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:19.320 you were talking about? Assault? 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:28.919 Let's say I have my own stories, and I don't 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:32.280 feel the specifics are as important as the fact that 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:36.920 the story is believed and valued, just like every other 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:45.840 woman I know who has these stories. And the trauma, 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:52.520 I think childhood trauma, any trauma, it rearranges you in 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:56.560 a way that you start acting in the world differently. 0:03:57.400 --> 0:03:59.760 And I started thinking, how long does it take to 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:01.560 get out of that? How long does it take to 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:04.920 become yourself? You know, in your sixth decade, are you 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:07.760 still working on this? You're still crawling out from it? 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:12.320 Are you still walking through the world like a thief 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:16.080 trying to steal a little moment of joy or you know, 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:18.080 some attention for yourself? 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:22.200 Do you have an answer for that? No, because I'd 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:22.760 love to hear it. 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:26.720 I don't have the answer oh that, And in fact, 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:31.680 I like that songs don't provide answers, they just provoke questions. 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:38.680 Did the feeling you're talking about did that precede the 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:39.719 Kavanaugh hearings? 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:41.800 Oh yeah, definitely. 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:45.800 I mean, I mean the expression of that politically. Did 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:48.480 that go back to the election? Oh my god. 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:48.840 Yes. 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:52.719 I didn't stop crying for ten days after the election. 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:57.240 And I have four daughters and a son, and my 0:04:57.440 --> 0:04:59.880 daughters were devastated. And one of them said to me, 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:02.279 she called up crying the night of the election, and 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:05.920 she said, I feel like I don't matter, and that 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:09.760 pierced my heart. Whenever I think of that sentence, I 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:13.640 just it breaks my heart. And at the same or 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:17.480 at the same time, our son was writing his college 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:19.960 filling out his essay for college, and one of the 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:22.920 questions was what would you change in this world if 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:27.640 you could change one thing, and he wrote sexism. That 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:29.560 just came out of the blue. We didn't expect that, 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:33.120 he said, because I have a mom and four sisters 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:37.360 and I see how it hurts them. Well, those are 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:41.760 the people we hope rule the world. You know, young 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:43.600 men who were that sensitive. 0:05:44.120 --> 0:05:47.400 Or young women or young women. Of course, right growing up, 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:50.200 there were albums and I know, you like these artists 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:53.599 who looked at albums that way, like Joni Mitchell or 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:57.839 Linda Ronstad, but they've thought very much in terms of albums. 0:05:57.920 --> 0:05:59.920 Do you think still in terms of albums even in 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:00.800 this age? 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:06.039 Oh yeah, and the time and you know focus that 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:10.240 we've been on sequencing an album because it is an 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:13.680 album to us. You know, it's like, what is track three? 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:15.159 How are we going to start it? How are we 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:17.880 going to end it? And even if there's not a 0:06:17.880 --> 0:06:21.680 theme there, there is a melodic or a narrative arc 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:25.120 to it that makes sense. I'm actually not very good 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:28.040 at sequencing. John is much better. And Tucker Martin, who 0:06:28.080 --> 0:06:31.360 is the other producer on this album, half the album 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:34.919 was produced by him, half by John. He he's also 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:37.000 good at sequencing. So I kind of left that to 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:42.279 the gentleman. But you're right, Joni Mitchell, that Blue was 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:46.120 a really really important record to me up to that point. 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:48.839 I mean I was young, but up to that point 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:52.960 I kind of just thought men were songwriters. I didn't 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:57.599 realize that a woman could be a songwriter and that 0:06:57.760 --> 0:07:04.240 her inner life was legit raw material to create songs, 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:08.080 music art and put it out in a public forum. 0:07:08.680 --> 0:07:13.520 That was That was a startling and revelatory moment for me. 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:15.960 Then we'll get to the other songs in a minute. 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:19.120 But are all the songs confessional in that way? Are 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:20.000 they all parts of you? 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:22.880 I don't like that word confessional because it makes it 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:29.040 seem like a diary. And there is an an art 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:32.840 and a craft of songwriting and poetic license and a 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:35.440 rhyme scheme and a melody and a backbeat and all 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:37.640 of those things to have to work together to make 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:41.600 a song work at the same time. Yeah, there's nothing 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:44.880 outside of myself on this album. Not nothing. 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:49.000 It's also and I regret using the word. It's a 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:52.920 word that's used with women's music. 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:59.240 Absolutely, you don't hear about men's confessional albums. 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:01.680 That's because we nothing to say. 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:03.680 That's so not true. 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:08.360 Well with that one, don't we try another song? What's next? 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:14.280 Try being the operative word. We'll see how which one 0:08:14.280 --> 0:08:14.760 are we doing? 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:19.600 Let's do Uh, let's do Jerusalem. But I need just 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:22.720 hold hold the binary code in there for a second. 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:27.240 I got to retune more broken record. 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:37.040 After this, we're back with Roseanne Cash and John Leventhal. Uh. 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:41.680 You talked when you were a young writer I'm not 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:44.000 quite sure what you were doing about sitting down and 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:49.800 taking apart songs by your heroes Guy Clark, Town Van 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:56.080 Zand and I'm assuming Joni Mitchell and others. Is that 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:59.959 something you still do even all after all this time. 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:02.840 I guess what I'm asking is is songwriting like learning 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:04.839 the alphabet or riding a bike. Once you know it, 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:07.760 you know it? Or is it like playing a guitar 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:08.840 you got to do your scales. 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:12.839 Oh god, No, once you know it, you don't know it. 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:17.200 I mean, part of the beauty of songwriting is there's 0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:20.760 mystery involved. You know, the same with any other really 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:24.680 creative act. You start out not knowing what's going to happen, 0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:27.719 and then it starts to unfold, and then you can 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:29.920 see the end of it, and then you edit, and 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:34.320 then you just keep polishing, and you know, it's different 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:39.959 every time. As far as examining other songs, absolutely, when 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:43.199 I was really young and first starting out, I would 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:47.520 write the lyrics down a Bob Dylan's song, Joni Mitchell's song, 0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:50.880 Guy Clark song and try to figure out why it 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:55.240 worked and deconstruct the rhyme scheme. Where did they rhyme 0:09:55.440 --> 0:09:58.319 this one? And how did that work? And where did 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:01.160 the bridge come? And does the chorus work? You know, 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:03.960 and really try to dismantle it. I don't do that 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:06.720 so much anymore because I think some of that knowledge 0:10:06.880 --> 0:10:11.840 is just intuitively gone in after forty years of writing songs. 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:16.400 But I do pay attention and listen to how other 0:10:16.520 --> 0:10:22.880 writers create things and how they construct their songs, and 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:26.760 you know, like a song that has a really subtle 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:30.640 rhyme scheme and yet works and how did that happen? 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:36.079 And chord changes, you know, all of it. It still 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:40.440 is endlessly fascinating and wonderful and mysterious to me. 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:43.880 If you hit a roadblock in your own writing, is 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:45.920 that something you'll go back and listen to other things? 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:50.319 Just for sure? I mean even I listen to other 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:56.240 music and get inspired to you know, sometimes my competitive 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:58.960 spirit gets inspired, like I really want to write something 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:02.520 that good. I want to beat that Oh yeah, definitely yeah, 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:05.160 And then yeah, it kind of makes you mad. And 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:07.880 then other times it's just like, oh, I'm so moved. 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:09.880 I want to find that thing in me. 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:16.840 And then beat that person. That person is songwriting something 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:20.720 you do for both of you every day? Is it? 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:23.839 Is it you know what I the way I look 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:26.960 at it. I don't sit down and write every day, 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:30.520 but I am a songwriter every day. So I'm collating 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:36.080 information and keeping notes every day and seeing something form 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:38.800 just outside my peripheral vision every day. 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:41.320 I try to be aware of it every day. Yeah, 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:45.080 I mean, I'm a little weird, Like I am compelled 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:48.760 to write music in a way. I can't turn it off, 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:52.520 you know, which is great. So a few times where 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:54.880 I wish I could turn it off, I can't turn 0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:57.480 off that thing in my head that wants to create 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:00.600 or come up with something that I that I feel 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:03.600 is potentially interesting. It doesn't always turn out to be interesting. 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:07.120 But like you saw me here today, before we even started, 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:09.480 like I played something on the guitar that struck me 0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:12.400 as unusual and the first thing I thought of, like, oh, 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:13.839 I could write a song around that. 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:17.920 I keep old lyrics, you know. I have files and 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:20.360 files of old lyrics, and sometimes if I get stuck, 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:24.120 I go back to something I wrote ten years ago, 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:25.680 five years ago. 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:29.280 Sometimes she'll show me or I'll find a bit of 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:33.199 lyric that she hadn't really thought about as being either 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:35.840 worthwhile or a song, and I'll just look at it 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:37.360 and go, oh my god, let me, can I please 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.360 strit music to this? It's a there's I think the 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:41.040 song we're. 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:43.880 About to do is yeah, this song everyone but me. 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:48.520 I had written these lyrics that I didn't think were lyrics. 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:52.040 I just thought it was something I was writing for 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:57.280 myself because it was kind of an anguished piece, and 0:12:57.360 --> 0:12:59.679 I thought, I'm not gonna turn this into a song. 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:03.360 And then John and I were in the studio one 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:05.280 day and we were writing. I think we were working 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:10.720 on crossing to Jerusalem and he said what else you got, 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:13.679 and just impulsively. 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:15.880 And you said, well, I know who's crossing the Jerusalem first. 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:23.240 Well, that possibility always exists in the marriage. 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:26.440 Oh. I pulled these this raw thing out and I said, 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:28.880 I just don't really think these are lyrics, and he goes, 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:33.520 oh yeah, let me write music to this. And I 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:35.760 swear I think it was the first time we both 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:37.040 cried in the studio. 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:38.920 Oh geez, here we go. 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:44.040 No really, okay, Well, take me back, how did that happen? 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:48.520 He wrote the music to those raw kind of lyrics, 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:51.600 and we both had tears running down our face. It 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:54.559 was very moving. It was a great experience. 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:57.480 But I didn't. What's interesting is that, I mean, I 0:13:57.559 --> 0:14:00.440 really loved Roseanne's lyrics and I was I felt good 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:03.959 about the melody I wrote. Because I get older, I 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:06.760 feel like I've accomplished something if I've written something really 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:09.040 simple but has a kind of elegance to it that's 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:13.920 not beholden to any particular style of music. But I didn't. 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:17.360 I experienced Rosane's lyrics I think differently than she did. 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:20.640 So the song was saying something different to me than 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:23.840 I think what she quote unquote intended when she wrote it, 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:28.280 which to me is my favorite kind of song and writing. 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:32.320 Where Roseanne may have had some narrative or some idea 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:34.720 or thought about where she was going with this lyric, 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:37.600 but to me it represented something so much more universal 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:42.480 than what I think she was writing about, about a 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:45.520 general idea of loss and I don't want to get. 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:48.720 Online again, but again trauma coming out of Yeah. 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:51.480 See, I didn't hear it as trauma. I heard it 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:54.280 more as this kind of universal sense that at some 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:56.640 point you're going to lose something that you love. 0:14:56.880 --> 0:14:59.400 Well, it's unavoidable, hopefully it is universal, and. 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:01.160 How you navigate and how you express it and what 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:03.720 you feel about it and what you do with it 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:08.280 is universal, and particularly as you get older, it's like, you. 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:13.080 Know, mortality looms in some places on this album. 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:17.040 Well with that, let's hear it. 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:19.160 Okay, this is called everyone but Me. 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:24.360 I mean there's a lot that's a loaded song. There's 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:28.120 a lot in it. It does talk about parents. Yeah, 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:30.840 And one thing I wanted to ask you about is 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:35.920 people think, of course you were raised in Tennessee, that 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:39.920 you were raised in the South. They're surprised to find 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:42.560 you weren't. They might be surprised to find out you 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:43.480 were raised Catholic. 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:48.200 Yeah, my mother was Catholic, and you know, I was 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:51.960 born in Memphis. We moved to southern California when I 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:55.800 was three, and I was raised in southern California and 0:15:56.160 --> 0:16:00.440 my mom was a devout Catholic. In fact, my dad 0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:02.800 had to sign papers when they got married saying that 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:06.520 the children would be raised Catholic. And I went to 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:11.400 Cormat School for twelve years and grew up in California 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:13.040 listening to rock and roll. 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:17.120 But like all good Catholics, you left the church, left 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:21.800 the church. But your mother was now she from. 0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:24.320 She was from San Antonio. 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:27.880 San Antonio, but Southern Catholicism is a kind of a 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:29.520 whole different thing, isn't it. 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:36.920 Well, she her family was Italian, her father, I mean, 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:41.440 her father was only a second generation Italian or first generation. 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:46.280 They were Southern Italians, so yeah, it was Italian. 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:49.360 So I mean my mom had a uncle who was 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:52.480 a priest. It was pretty serious, right, Oh no. 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:56.640 It'S very serious. Yeah, it's almost like being a Catholic 0:16:56.640 --> 0:16:59.240 in England, which is yeah, yeah, this kind of your 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:00.320 real mind. 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:08.120 Yeah, that's true. I left the church at sixteen, broke 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:11.840 my mother's heart, but just you know, she thought I 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:15.840 was going to hell. I just found you had to 0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:19.120 be determined, yet to be determined TBD. I found it 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:26.920 immensely cruel and cynical that my mother, who was such 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:32.399 a devout Catholic, was for all intents and purposes, excommunicated 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:36.320 when she divorced my dad and not allowed to receive 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:39.240 communion anymore. And she still showed up and sat in 0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:41.840 the front row every mass, you know, and worked in 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:45.440 the church and everything. And I just thought, how could 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:49.680 they turn away somebody who was so devoted. I don't 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:50.560 want to be part of that. 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:58.359 Well, there is there is a kind of sense in 0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:03.120 a lot of your work. I would argue that you've 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:10.480 got that Catholic, particularly that kind of Catholic sense in 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:13.399 a lot of your songs, of this kind of fight 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:17.760 between the world we believe in and then there's the 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:21.359 world we live in, and you tend to look at it. 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:24.680 I would say, probably in terms of relationships. But it's 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:27.360 a very it's something you find particularly in a lot 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:29.720 it's Southern Catholic. That is your Flannery O'Connor is a 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:31.280 great example of that. 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:34.680 That is so interesting. I never thought about it that way, 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:39.520 and I think that's true. And I think on this 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:44.000 record it's less about that happening in relationships and more 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:49.399 about it happening inside myself. And you know, there's still 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:52.720 a good Catholic girl inside of me who wants people 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:54.960 to like her and wants to do the right thing 0:18:55.160 --> 0:19:00.679 and believes in good and evil and morality. 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:03.840 It's a it just seems to be a theme that 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:08.240 kind of runs through and particularly your views on marriage 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:11.520 and relationships. You know, some of these I think two 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:15.040 of the songs are are dedicated to your husband, but 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:16.800 they're not simple, easy songs. 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:19.360 No, Well, he's serving with an. 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:20.879 Easy going guy he seems to be. 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:26.520 Yeah, right, well, yeah, when to see, marriage is complicated, 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:30.320 it requires work, it's not it's not something you're given. 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:33.360 You have to work for it. And you know, we've. 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:36.400 Had work, work, work, We've had ups. 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:41.040 And downs like any couple. And you know, there's some 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:43.320 days I've wanted to get as far away from him 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:48.440 as possible. But mostly, I mean, we really like being together. 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:51.840 We've were together more than any couple we know, and 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:54.840 we're really good friends. And we work together, raise a 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:59.200 child together, live together, travel together. And it's not modern. 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:01.680 I mean, I think a lot of modern relationships the 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:04.280 people spend a lot of time apart. We don't, and 0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:05.440 we like it that way. 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:09.520 Oh, both your parents ended up having relationships like that, 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:10.080 didn't they. 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:13.960 Yeah, where they were very close to the and with 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:15.880 the other personal time. That's true, they did. 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:20.639 Oh your dad in June had ways of yeah. 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:28.639 Well, yeah, you're now at an age when when your 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:31.000 father was a performer, when he was around your age, 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:35.040 he was going through a lot of struggles commercially. 0:20:35.080 --> 0:20:37.000 I think at one point he was he dropped by 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:38.440 his label that was then your. 0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:41.520 Label or yeah, that was just a dark time. 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:44.800 Keep telling me how that happened. 0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:50.800 He was on Columbia, and really Colombia, that record label 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:55.320 was built on the backs of him and Bob Dylan. 0:20:56.240 --> 0:20:58.880 You know, it was that that record label owed him 0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:02.320 so much. So he called me at home one day 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:03.840 and he said, what's. 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:04.600 Your royalty rate? 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:07.239 Because I was on Columbia at the same time, And 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:14.560 I told him, and he kind of rumphed. And then 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:20.280 shortly thereafter the label dropped him, and I was furious, 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:24.440 and I hated them for doing that, and I felt 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:27.480 so bad for my dad, and I felt embarrassed about 0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:31.280 myself that I was still on the label. It seemed 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:35.199 somehow disrespectful, even though I didn't have anything to do 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:39.560 with it. You know, looking back at it, I thought, 0:21:39.880 --> 0:21:42.639 I think I should I should have left the label, 0:21:43.040 --> 0:21:46.919 should have just gotten off at that moment. But I didn't. 0:21:47.000 --> 0:21:49.359 And then Dad went to Mercury, and you know, then 0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:52.040 he had a real fallow period before he met Rick. 0:21:53.119 --> 0:22:00.679 And Rick came in like a spirit brother, and my 0:22:00.760 --> 0:22:04.560 whole family I think owes him a huge debt for 0:22:04.760 --> 0:22:09.040 what he did for Dad. I mean, he it was 0:22:09.080 --> 0:22:10.600 such a redemptive act. 0:22:11.359 --> 0:22:14.399 We should mention. You're talking about Rick Ruber It was 0:22:14.680 --> 0:22:19.040 one of the partners in this podcast and produced I 0:22:19.119 --> 0:22:21.440 think all your father's last five. 0:22:21.280 --> 0:22:22.960 Out the American recordings, yeah. 0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:25.879 Which are of course sort of landmarks. 0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:29.159 Yeah. I always thought of Dad like Matisse, you know, 0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:34.919 like Matis, starting with representational art and going into Impressionistic 0:22:35.000 --> 0:22:38.600 and then this burst of creativity at the end of 0:22:38.640 --> 0:22:41.080 his life. You know, when he did the Jazz Dancers. 0:22:41.320 --> 0:22:44.159 It's like he kept reinventing himself. And I think he 0:22:44.359 --> 0:22:46.760 that Fallo period on Mercury when he did all that 0:22:46.880 --> 0:22:54.360 kind of really some really shallow and pedestrian recordings. Then 0:22:54.400 --> 0:22:56.520 he just burst open when Rick came on. 0:22:56.440 --> 0:22:58.520 This, well, Rick gave him permission to be the artist 0:22:58.560 --> 0:23:03.840 he really was, and not sort of a musical artist 0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:08.119 plugged into some sort of song slash hit making Nashville machinery, 0:23:08.160 --> 0:23:11.560 which at that point was just a very bad fit 0:23:11.640 --> 0:23:12.399 for your father. 0:23:12.800 --> 0:23:13.080 Yeah. 0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:17.480 I mean he needed someone to say, Johnny Cash. 0:23:17.640 --> 0:23:20.719 Yeah, what are you doing. You're Johnny Cash, let go 0:23:20.760 --> 0:23:22.520 of all of this. Let's just sit you down with 0:23:22.560 --> 0:23:24.760 the guitar, just you and the guitar, and let's get 0:23:24.840 --> 0:23:25.840 back to the basics. 0:23:26.040 --> 0:23:29.200 Well, let me ask you then, now, at this point 0:23:29.280 --> 0:23:31.600 in your career. First of all, when you looked ahead 0:23:31.640 --> 0:23:34.080 twenty years ago, where did you think your career was 0:23:34.080 --> 0:23:34.520 going to be. 0:23:35.880 --> 0:23:38.919 I'm not good at that. I've never been good at 0:23:38.960 --> 0:23:42.479 five year plans or mapping out my future or anything 0:23:42.560 --> 0:23:47.040 like that. I'm really more of a what's next, what's 0:23:47.080 --> 0:23:52.760 the next step, what's the next step? Person? The overarching 0:23:53.240 --> 0:23:57.040 looking forward vision I've had for myself is just to 0:23:57.080 --> 0:23:59.159 be a better writer. I just wanted to be a 0:23:59.200 --> 0:24:01.720 better songwriter and I want to be a better singer. 0:24:01.960 --> 0:24:03.760