1 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 2: Just a quick note here. You can listen to all 3 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 2: of the music mentioned in this episode on our playlist, 4 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 2: which you can find a link to in the show 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 2: notes for licensing reasons. Each time a song is referenced 6 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 2: in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect. All right, 7 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 2: enjoyed the episode? 8 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 3: Do you recognize who that is? That's one of the 9 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 3: most distinctive voices in modern music, Roseanne Cash Country Music Royalty. 10 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 3: She's been making extraordinary music for forty years and that's 11 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 3: the beginning of the title track to her latest album, 12 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 3: She Remembers Everything you know. I recently looked back at 13 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 3: some country music charts. Thirty years ago, the average age 14 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 3: of the artist in the top ten was thirty five. 15 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 3: Today is twenty. Country music is losing interest in its elders, 16 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 3: which is a shame, because it's elders are better than ever. 17 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 3: I'm Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to broken Record This week. 18 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 3: My colleague Bruce Headlam sits down with Rose end Cash 19 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 3: and her husband and musical partner John Leventhal at the 20 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:25,919 Speaker 3: Bridge Studio in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, to play some amazing music 21 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 3: and tell a few stories. 22 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:34,199 Speaker 1: The name of the album is she remembers everything, which 23 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: it's an ambiguous, difficult song. The phrase on its own 24 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: seems to have taken a lot a lot of meaning. 25 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:47,320 Speaker 1: Right now, how did you intend that to be received? 26 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 4: I intended it as both a threat and a common 27 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 4: And I wrote the lyrics to this song in Sam Phillips, 28 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 4: who is just a beautiful woman in a beautiful song writer. 29 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 4: She wrote the music. It was the first time we 30 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 4: ever wrote a song together, and I was when I 31 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 4: wrote the lyrics. I was thinking about trauma, early trauma 32 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 4: and a woman's memory and how many things we lock up, 33 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 4: and that it there's some comfort in thinking that it 34 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 4: was a woman's memory is like a library. You may 35 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 4: not know right off the bat every book that's on 36 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 4: the shelf, but you could go in there and pull 37 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 4: it out. And there's also some rage in that song. 38 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 4: In a way, it's prescient because this was before the 39 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 4: Me Too movement, before the Kavanaugh hearings, you know, when 40 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:48,919 Speaker 4: every woman I know felt completely crushed and discounted, and 41 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 4: you know, we were told that we couldn't even trust 42 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 4: our own memories. And the song actually took on greater 43 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:56,919 Speaker 4: residence for me after that. 44 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 5: It's striking how it did, and we both really I 45 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 5: remember the day we both realized it, like we just 46 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 5: looked at each other and go, you have just entered 47 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 5: the zeitgeist at the exact right moment. 48 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,119 Speaker 4: But it was personal and it's not like all those 49 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 4: things didn't exist before for millions. 50 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 1: Of women, you know, was that the kind of trauma 51 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: you were talking about? Assault? 52 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,919 Speaker 4: Let's say I have my own stories, and I don't 53 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 4: feel the specifics are as important as the fact that 54 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 4: the story is believed and valued, just like every other 55 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 4: woman I know who has these stories. And the trauma, 56 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 4: I think childhood trauma, any trauma, it rearranges you in 57 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 4: a way that you start acting in the world differently. 58 00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 4: And I started thinking, how long does it take to 59 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 4: get out of that? How long does it take to 60 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 4: become yourself? You know, in your sixth decade, are you 61 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 4: still working on this? You're still crawling out from it? 62 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 4: Are you still walking through the world like a thief 63 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 4: trying to steal a little moment of joy or you know, 64 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 4: some attention for yourself? 65 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: Do you have an answer for that? No, because I'd 66 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: love to hear it. 67 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 4: I don't have the answer oh that, And in fact, 68 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 4: I like that songs don't provide answers, they just provoke questions. 69 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: Did the feeling you're talking about did that precede the 70 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:39,719 Speaker 1: Kavanaugh hearings? 71 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, definitely. 72 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean the expression of that politically. Did 73 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 1: that go back to the election? Oh my god. 74 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 2: Yes. 75 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 4: I didn't stop crying for ten days after the election. 76 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 4: And I have four daughters and a son, and my 77 00:04:57,440 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 4: daughters were devastated. And one of them said to me, 78 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 4: she called up crying the night of the election, and 79 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 4: she said, I feel like I don't matter, and that 80 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 4: pierced my heart. Whenever I think of that sentence, I 81 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 4: just it breaks my heart. And at the same or 82 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 4: at the same time, our son was writing his college 83 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 4: filling out his essay for college, and one of the 84 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 4: questions was what would you change in this world if 85 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 4: you could change one thing, and he wrote sexism. That 86 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 4: just came out of the blue. We didn't expect that, 87 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 4: he said, because I have a mom and four sisters 88 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 4: and I see how it hurts them. Well, those are 89 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 4: the people we hope rule the world. You know, young 90 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 4: men who were that sensitive. 91 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: Or young women or young women. Of course, right growing up, 92 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: there were albums and I know, you like these artists 93 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 1: who looked at albums that way, like Joni Mitchell or 94 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 1: Linda Ronstad, but they've thought very much in terms of albums. 95 00:05:57,920 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: Do you think still in terms of albums even in 96 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: this age? 97 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, and the time and you know focus that 98 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 4: we've been on sequencing an album because it is an 99 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 4: album to us. You know, it's like, what is track three? 100 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 4: How are we going to start it? How are we 101 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 4: going to end it? And even if there's not a 102 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 4: theme there, there is a melodic or a narrative arc 103 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 4: to it that makes sense. I'm actually not very good 104 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 4: at sequencing. John is much better. And Tucker Martin, who 105 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 4: is the other producer on this album, half the album 106 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,919 Speaker 4: was produced by him, half by John. He he's also 107 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 4: good at sequencing. So I kind of left that to 108 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 4: the gentleman. But you're right, Joni Mitchell, that Blue was 109 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 4: a really really important record to me up to that point. 110 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 4: I mean I was young, but up to that point 111 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 4: I kind of just thought men were songwriters. I didn't 112 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:57,599 Speaker 4: realize that a woman could be a songwriter and that 113 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 4: her inner life was legit raw material to create songs, 114 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 4: music art and put it out in a public forum. 115 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 4: That was That was a startling and revelatory moment for me. 116 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: Then we'll get to the other songs in a minute. 117 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: But are all the songs confessional in that way? Are 118 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: they all parts of you? 119 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 4: I don't like that word confessional because it makes it 120 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 4: seem like a diary. And there is an an art 121 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 4: and a craft of songwriting and poetic license and a 122 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 4: rhyme scheme and a melody and a backbeat and all 123 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 4: of those things to have to work together to make 124 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 4: a song work at the same time. Yeah, there's nothing 125 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 4: outside of myself on this album. Not nothing. 126 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: It's also and I regret using the word. It's a 127 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: word that's used with women's music. 128 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 4: Absolutely, you don't hear about men's confessional albums. 129 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: That's because we nothing to say. 130 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 4: That's so not true. 131 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: Well with that one, don't we try another song? What's next? 132 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 4: Try being the operative word. We'll see how which one 133 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 4: are we doing? 134 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 5: Let's do Uh, let's do Jerusalem. But I need just 135 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 5: hold hold the binary code in there for a second. 136 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 6: I got to retune more broken record. 137 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: After this, we're back with Roseanne Cash and John Leventhal. Uh. 138 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 1: You talked when you were a young writer I'm not 139 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: quite sure what you were doing about sitting down and 140 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: taking apart songs by your heroes Guy Clark, Town Van 141 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 1: Zand and I'm assuming Joni Mitchell and others. Is that 142 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 1: something you still do even all after all this time. 143 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: I guess what I'm asking is is songwriting like learning 144 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:04,839 Speaker 1: the alphabet or riding a bike. Once you know it, 145 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: you know it? Or is it like playing a guitar 146 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 1: you got to do your scales. 147 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:12,839 Speaker 4: Oh god, No, once you know it, you don't know it. 148 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 4: I mean, part of the beauty of songwriting is there's 149 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 4: mystery involved. You know, the same with any other really 150 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 4: creative act. You start out not knowing what's going to happen, 151 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,719 Speaker 4: and then it starts to unfold, and then you can 152 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 4: see the end of it, and then you edit, and 153 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 4: then you just keep polishing, and you know, it's different 154 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:39,959 Speaker 4: every time. As far as examining other songs, absolutely, when 155 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,199 Speaker 4: I was really young and first starting out, I would 156 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 4: write the lyrics down a Bob Dylan's song, Joni Mitchell's song, 157 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 4: Guy Clark song and try to figure out why it 158 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 4: worked and deconstruct the rhyme scheme. Where did they rhyme 159 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:58,319 Speaker 4: this one? And how did that work? And where did 160 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 4: the bridge come? And does the chorus work? You know, 161 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 4: and really try to dismantle it. I don't do that 162 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 4: so much anymore because I think some of that knowledge 163 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 4: is just intuitively gone in after forty years of writing songs. 164 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 4: But I do pay attention and listen to how other 165 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 4: writers create things and how they construct their songs, and 166 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 4: you know, like a song that has a really subtle 167 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 4: rhyme scheme and yet works and how did that happen? 168 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:36,079 Speaker 4: And chord changes, you know, all of it. It still 169 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 4: is endlessly fascinating and wonderful and mysterious to me. 170 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: If you hit a roadblock in your own writing, is 171 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: that something you'll go back and listen to other things? 172 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,319 Speaker 4: Just for sure? I mean even I listen to other 173 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 4: music and get inspired to you know, sometimes my competitive 174 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 4: spirit gets inspired, like I really want to write something 175 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 4: that good. I want to beat that Oh yeah, definitely yeah, 176 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 4: And then yeah, it kind of makes you mad. And 177 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 4: then other times it's just like, oh, I'm so moved. 178 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 4: I want to find that thing in me. 179 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 1: And then beat that person. That person is songwriting something 180 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: you do for both of you every day? Is it? 181 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,839 Speaker 4: Is it you know what I the way I look 182 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 4: at it. I don't sit down and write every day, 183 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 4: but I am a songwriter every day. So I'm collating 184 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 4: information and keeping notes every day and seeing something form 185 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 4: just outside my peripheral vision every day. 186 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 5: I try to be aware of it every day. Yeah, 187 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 5: I mean, I'm a little weird, Like I am compelled 188 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 5: to write music in a way. I can't turn it off, 189 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 5: you know, which is great. So a few times where 190 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 5: I wish I could turn it off, I can't turn 191 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 5: off that thing in my head that wants to create 192 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 5: or come up with something that I that I feel 193 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 5: is potentially interesting. It doesn't always turn out to be interesting. 194 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 5: But like you saw me here today, before we even started, 195 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 5: like I played something on the guitar that struck me 196 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 5: as unusual and the first thing I thought of, like, oh, 197 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:13,839 Speaker 5: I could write a song around that. 198 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 4: I keep old lyrics, you know. I have files and 199 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 4: files of old lyrics, and sometimes if I get stuck, 200 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 4: I go back to something I wrote ten years ago, 201 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 4: five years ago. 202 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 5: Sometimes she'll show me or I'll find a bit of 203 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:33,199 Speaker 5: lyric that she hadn't really thought about as being either 204 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 5: worthwhile or a song, and I'll just look at it 205 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 5: and go, oh my god, let me, can I please 206 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 5: strit music to this? It's a there's I think the 207 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 5: song we're. 208 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 4: About to do is yeah, this song everyone but me. 209 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 4: I had written these lyrics that I didn't think were lyrics. 210 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 4: I just thought it was something I was writing for 211 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 4: myself because it was kind of an anguished piece, and 212 00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 4: I thought, I'm not gonna turn this into a song. 213 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 4: And then John and I were in the studio one 214 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 4: day and we were writing. I think we were working 215 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 4: on crossing to Jerusalem and he said what else you got, 216 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 4: and just impulsively. 217 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: And you said, well, I know who's crossing the Jerusalem first. 218 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 5: Well, that possibility always exists in the marriage. 219 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 4: Oh. I pulled these this raw thing out and I said, 220 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 4: I just don't really think these are lyrics, and he goes, 221 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 4: oh yeah, let me write music to this. And I 222 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 4: swear I think it was the first time we both 223 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 4: cried in the studio. 224 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 5: Oh geez, here we go. 225 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: No really, okay, Well, take me back, how did that happen? 226 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 4: He wrote the music to those raw kind of lyrics, 227 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 4: and we both had tears running down our face. It 228 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:54,559 Speaker 4: was very moving. It was a great experience. 229 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 5: But I didn't. What's interesting is that, I mean, I 230 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 5: really loved Roseanne's lyrics and I was I felt good 231 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,959 Speaker 5: about the melody I wrote. Because I get older, I 232 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 5: feel like I've accomplished something if I've written something really 233 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 5: simple but has a kind of elegance to it that's 234 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 5: not beholden to any particular style of music. But I didn't. 235 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 5: I experienced Rosane's lyrics I think differently than she did. 236 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 5: So the song was saying something different to me than 237 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 5: I think what she quote unquote intended when she wrote it, 238 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 5: which to me is my favorite kind of song and writing. 239 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 5: Where Roseanne may have had some narrative or some idea 240 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 5: or thought about where she was going with this lyric, 241 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 5: but to me it represented something so much more universal 242 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 5: than what I think she was writing about, about a 243 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 5: general idea of loss and I don't want to get. 244 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 4: Online again, but again trauma coming out of Yeah. 245 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 5: See, I didn't hear it as trauma. I heard it 246 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 5: more as this kind of universal sense that at some 247 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 5: point you're going to lose something that you love. 248 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: Well, it's unavoidable, hopefully it is universal, and. 249 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 5: How you navigate and how you express it and what 250 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 5: you feel about it and what you do with it 251 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 5: is universal, and particularly as you get older, it's like, you. 252 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 4: Know, mortality looms in some places on this album. 253 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: Well with that, let's hear it. 254 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 4: Okay, this is called everyone but Me. 255 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: I mean there's a lot that's a loaded song. There's 256 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: a lot in it. It does talk about parents. Yeah, 257 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: And one thing I wanted to ask you about is 258 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: people think, of course you were raised in Tennessee, that 259 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: you were raised in the South. They're surprised to find 260 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: you weren't. They might be surprised to find out you 261 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: were raised Catholic. 262 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, my mother was Catholic, and you know, I was 263 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 4: born in Memphis. We moved to southern California when I 264 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 4: was three, and I was raised in southern California and 265 00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 4: my mom was a devout Catholic. In fact, my dad 266 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 4: had to sign papers when they got married saying that 267 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 4: the children would be raised Catholic. And I went to 268 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 4: Cormat School for twelve years and grew up in California 269 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 4: listening to rock and roll. 270 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: But like all good Catholics, you left the church, left 271 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: the church. But your mother was now she from. 272 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 4: She was from San Antonio. 273 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: San Antonio, but Southern Catholicism is a kind of a 274 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: whole different thing, isn't it. 275 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 4: Well, she her family was Italian, her father, I mean, 276 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 4: her father was only a second generation Italian or first generation. 277 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 5: They were Southern Italians, so yeah, it was Italian. 278 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 4: So I mean my mom had a uncle who was 279 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 4: a priest. It was pretty serious, right, Oh no. 280 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 1: It'S very serious. Yeah, it's almost like being a Catholic 281 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: in England, which is yeah, yeah, this kind of your 282 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: real mind. 283 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:08,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's true. I left the church at sixteen, broke 284 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 4: my mother's heart, but just you know, she thought I 285 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 4: was going to hell. I just found you had to 286 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,120 Speaker 4: be determined, yet to be determined TBD. I found it 287 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 4: immensely cruel and cynical that my mother, who was such 288 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 4: a devout Catholic, was for all intents and purposes, excommunicated 289 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 4: when she divorced my dad and not allowed to receive 290 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 4: communion anymore. And she still showed up and sat in 291 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 4: the front row every mass, you know, and worked in 292 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 4: the church and everything. And I just thought, how could 293 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 4: they turn away somebody who was so devoted. I don't 294 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 4: want to be part of that. 295 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 1: Well, there is there is a kind of sense in 296 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 1: a lot of your work. I would argue that you've 297 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: got that Catholic, particularly that kind of Catholic sense in 298 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 1: a lot of your songs, of this kind of fight 299 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: between the world we believe in and then there's the 300 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: world we live in, and you tend to look at it. 301 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 1: I would say, probably in terms of relationships. But it's 302 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,360 Speaker 1: a very it's something you find particularly in a lot 303 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: it's Southern Catholic. That is your Flannery O'Connor is a 304 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: great example of that. 305 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 4: That is so interesting. I never thought about it that way, 306 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 4: and I think that's true. And I think on this 307 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 4: record it's less about that happening in relationships and more 308 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 4: about it happening inside myself. And you know, there's still 309 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 4: a good Catholic girl inside of me who wants people 310 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 4: to like her and wants to do the right thing 311 00:18:55,160 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 4: and believes in good and evil and morality. 312 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: It's a it just seems to be a theme that 313 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: kind of runs through and particularly your views on marriage 314 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: and relationships. You know, some of these I think two 315 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: of the songs are are dedicated to your husband, but 316 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: they're not simple, easy songs. 317 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:19,360 Speaker 4: No, Well, he's serving with an. 318 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 1: Easy going guy he seems to be. 319 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, right, well, yeah, when to see, marriage is complicated, 320 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 4: it requires work, it's not it's not something you're given. 321 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,360 Speaker 4: You have to work for it. And you know, we've. 322 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,400 Speaker 5: Had work, work, work, We've had ups. 323 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 4: And downs like any couple. And you know, there's some 324 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 4: days I've wanted to get as far away from him 325 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 4: as possible. But mostly, I mean, we really like being together. 326 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 4: We've were together more than any couple we know, and 327 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 4: we're really good friends. And we work together, raise a 328 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 4: child together, live together, travel together. And it's not modern. 329 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 4: I mean, I think a lot of modern relationships the 330 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 4: people spend a lot of time apart. We don't, and 331 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:05,440 Speaker 4: we like it that way. 332 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: Oh, both your parents ended up having relationships like that, 333 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: didn't they. 334 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, where they were very close to the and with 335 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:15,880 Speaker 4: the other personal time. That's true, they did. 336 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 5: Oh your dad in June had ways of yeah. 337 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 6: Well, yeah, you're now at an age when when your 338 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 6: father was a performer, when he was around your age, 339 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 6: he was going through a lot of struggles commercially. 340 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: I think at one point he was he dropped by 341 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 1: his label that was then your. 342 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 4: Label or yeah, that was just a dark time. 343 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: Keep telling me how that happened. 344 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 4: He was on Columbia, and really Colombia, that record label 345 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 4: was built on the backs of him and Bob Dylan. 346 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,880 Speaker 4: You know, it was that that record label owed him 347 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 4: so much. So he called me at home one day 348 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 4: and he said, what's. 349 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 1: Your royalty rate? 350 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,239 Speaker 4: Because I was on Columbia at the same time, And 351 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 4: I told him, and he kind of rumphed. And then 352 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 4: shortly thereafter the label dropped him, and I was furious, 353 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 4: and I hated them for doing that, and I felt 354 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 4: so bad for my dad, and I felt embarrassed about 355 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 4: myself that I was still on the label. It seemed 356 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:35,199 Speaker 4: somehow disrespectful, even though I didn't have anything to do 357 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 4: with it. You know, looking back at it, I thought, 358 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,639 Speaker 4: I think I should I should have left the label, 359 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:46,919 Speaker 4: should have just gotten off at that moment. But I didn't. 360 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 4: And then Dad went to Mercury, and you know, then 361 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 4: he had a real fallow period before he met Rick. 362 00:21:53,119 --> 00:22:00,679 Speaker 4: And Rick came in like a spirit brother, and my 363 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 4: whole family I think owes him a huge debt for 364 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 4: what he did for Dad. I mean, he it was 365 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 4: such a redemptive act. 366 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 1: We should mention. You're talking about Rick Ruber It was 367 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: one of the partners in this podcast and produced I 368 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 1: think all your father's last five. 369 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 4: Out the American recordings, yeah. 370 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 1: Which are of course sort of landmarks. 371 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,159 Speaker 4: Yeah. I always thought of Dad like Matisse, you know, 372 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 4: like Matis, starting with representational art and going into Impressionistic 373 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 4: and then this burst of creativity at the end of 374 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 4: his life. You know, when he did the Jazz Dancers. 375 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 4: It's like he kept reinventing himself. And I think he 376 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 4: that Fallo period on Mercury when he did all that 377 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:54,360 Speaker 4: kind of really some really shallow and pedestrian recordings. Then 378 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 4: he just burst open when Rick came on. 379 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 5: This, well, Rick gave him permission to be the artist 380 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 5: he really was, and not sort of a musical artist 381 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 5: plugged into some sort of song slash hit making Nashville machinery, 382 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 5: which at that point was just a very bad fit 383 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 5: for your father. 384 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 4: Yeah. 385 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 1: I mean he needed someone to say, Johnny Cash. 386 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,719 Speaker 4: Yeah, what are you doing. You're Johnny Cash, let go 387 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 4: of all of this. Let's just sit you down with 388 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 4: the guitar, just you and the guitar, and let's get 389 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 4: back to the basics. 390 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you then, now, at this point 391 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: in your career. First of all, when you looked ahead 392 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: twenty years ago, where did you think your career was 393 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: going to be. 394 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,919 Speaker 4: I'm not good at that. I've never been good at 395 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,479 Speaker 4: five year plans or mapping out my future or anything 396 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 4: like that. I'm really more of a what's next, what's 397 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 4: the next step, what's the next step? Person? The overarching 398 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 4: looking forward vision I've had for myself is just to 399 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,159 Speaker 4: be a better writer. I just wanted to be a 400 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 4: better songwriter and I want to be a better singer. 401 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 5: I don't think either of us have ever thought about 402 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 5: our career. Yeah, we just don't think like that. 403 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,880 Speaker 4: I mean, I've had to learn to think about some 404 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 4: of that, you know, as the business has changed, you know, 405 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 4: trying to adapt to that. But mostly I just want 406 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 4: to write songs and be a better singer and be 407 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 4: a better song and do good work, and do good 408 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 4: work the work for the work sake. Absolutely, And the 409 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 4: fact that I'm not burnt out at my age when 410 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 4: I know so many people who are, I just feel 411 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 4: so lucky and i feel like I'm still learning and 412 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 4: getting better and what more could you want? 413 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 1: Well, you actually are getting better. And I'm not just 414 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: saying that because you're standing for feet from me. The 415 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 1: people I know who've heard the record has said, Wow, 416 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 1: she's actually getting better. And that's that's difficult for any artist. 417 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: It's difficult for songwriters. Not many songwriters keep getting better? 418 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 4: Is there Leonard Cohen did? 419 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: Leonard Cohen did? Yeah? Is there is there a magic 420 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 1: a musical fountain of Well, I shouldn't even call it 421 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 1: a fountain of youths because that's not what it is. 422 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: You know what of age? 423 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 4: You know what? There's for me? To avoid getting bitter 424 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 4: is huge because you know, bad things happen to you suffering. 425 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 4: We all suffer, we all have losses, we all have 426 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 4: missed opportunities. And I know people who've allowed themselves to 427 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 4: become bitter, and it really shuts you down. It shuts 428 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 4: down your access points to art and creativity in my mind, 429 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 4: from what I understand. And the other thing is to 430 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 4: stay curious. I'm really still very curious. I feel like 431 00:25:53,800 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 4: a beginner and maybe that's just part of my DNA. 432 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 4: My dad was always like that. He was always curious 433 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 4: about what the nineteen year olds were doing. 434 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:11,880 Speaker 1: He used to have them on a show. I remember, Yeah, 435 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:13,880 Speaker 1: well I think. 436 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,120 Speaker 4: I did to get that from him, I got a good, 437 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 4: strong work ethic and the ability to be curious for 438 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,400 Speaker 4: your whole life. 439 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's go back and do some of that history, 440 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: because you're gonna do a couple of covers. 441 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 4: Yeah, this song was on the list my album, on 442 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,479 Speaker 4: the list and on the original list my dad gave me, 443 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 4: and it's you know, it's just at the center of 444 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:43,120 Speaker 4: American roots music in my mind. Okay, this is Long Black. 445 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:48,919 Speaker 1: Fail more with Roseanne Cash and John Leventhal. After this, 446 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 1: we're back with Roseanne Cash and John Leventhal. That's Long 447 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 1: Black Fail. Of course, many versions. Your father's Lefty Frizelle 448 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: the band did a wonderful version. 449 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 5: I think wonderful. 450 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 1: Danko, you've been the singer on that. 451 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 5: Just unbelievable. 452 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 1: There are some songs that when you flip the sexes, 453 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,199 Speaker 1: when a woman sings a song that's traditionally the narrator 454 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 1: is a man, it can work. You can't flip this one. 455 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 4: No, you can't flip it, And therein lies the beauty, 456 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,919 Speaker 4: you know. I love that old folk tradition of women 457 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 4: singing about other women, women being narrators in a song 458 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,159 Speaker 4: and not changing the gender. You know, the Carter family 459 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 4: did that quite a lot, and they're Gene Richie. There 460 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,880 Speaker 4: are plenty of other old folk songs where women didn't 461 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 4: switch the gender. 462 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:43,679 Speaker 1: And is there a certain quality you think when a 463 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,680 Speaker 1: woman sings a what's a man's part? 464 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 4: Yeah? I mean I think it. 465 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: Sure. 466 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 4: It provides a different kind of angle or prism to 467 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,439 Speaker 4: look at it through. I mean, I guess that people 468 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 4: will hear it as a narrator rather than me talking 469 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 4: about you know, it's almost like I come to I'm 470 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,399 Speaker 4: Rod Sterling or something and come to the front of 471 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 4: the screen and present this story. 472 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 5: I like the gender switch on that song a lot. 473 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 5: It adds to the song in some ways to me. 474 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:21,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was co written by a woman. 475 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:26,239 Speaker 5: Yeah, John Wilkins, Yeah, just an unbelievably great song. I 476 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 5: mean I call this song the Humbler. It's like, Okay, 477 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 5: your songwriter, show me you can do something like this, 478 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 5: and we should go on to farewell. 479 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: Angelina. Can you tell me a little why you chose 480 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: that song? 481 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I just love that song. I love 482 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 4: the tradition he borrowed from to write this song. I 483 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 4: love how obtuse the lyrics are. 484 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 5: Talk about mystery. 485 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, talk about mysteries, right. 486 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 5: And melodies and incredible. 487 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 4: and then it's like all of this weird stuff going 488 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 4: on in the verses, and then every time it comes 489 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 4: back to farewell and Angelina. I mean, Angelina is such 490 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 4: a beautiful name. Saying farewell, you know, in some very 491 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 4: old world sense of saying goodbye, it just works perfectly. 492 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 4: And I don't know many writers who can get away 493 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 4: with lyrics this obtuse. 494 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 5: He borrowed it from a Scottish song called Farewell Tarwathi, 495 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 5: which was a Sailors song, but he just took it 496 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 5: as Bob did in the previous first four or five years, 497 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,719 Speaker 5: and just recurploded it. 498 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 2: Yea. 499 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: It is one of those songs when I was listening 500 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: to you. It is full of these very sort of 501 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: two difficult metaphors, I suppose, but some of them seem 502 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 1: to be It's also a song that there are times 503 00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: they seem very real. The fiends nailed bombs. 504 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, time bombs to the hands of the you know. 505 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 1: what's happening with the sky. It just it seems to 506 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 1: be a song that the kind of more outlandish images 507 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: almost become concrete. Yeah, as time goes on. 508 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree. And also it's very dream like, like 509 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 4: you could, you know, the fifty two gypsies filing past 510 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 4: the guards or something. It's like a film, you know, 511 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 4: an abstract realism kind of film. You know. I did 512 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 4: skip one verse, by the way. I hope Bob doesn't 513 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 4: hear this. I know that I skipped the verse about 514 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 4: the pirates. 515 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 1: Have you written a song? Have you had this song 516 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: in your mind when you've written another song, or have 517 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: you ever tried to create the kind of effect he 518 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 1: creates here? 519 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 4: Well, my use of when I'm writing melodies, my use 520 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 4: of minor chords just tends to this exactly. In fact, 521 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 4: I would say overuse of that particular. 522 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: Never heard a minor you don't love? 523 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 5: Yeah, he was never an a minor to f that 524 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 5: she does. 525 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 4: That's exactly right. 526 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 5: I mean, I argue about it. 527 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 4: John cautions me again, said, and I do love it 528 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 4: so much, And he said, yes, all of humanity loves it, 529 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 4: you know, but just back off a bit. 530 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 5: That's that's a podcast, Yeah, all on harmony and chord changes. Yeah, 531 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 5: and sort of the diminution thereof last thirty. 532 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 4: Okay, well, not to get too serious about it, but 533 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 4: this folk tradition of this use of minor chords is 534 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 4: very compelling to me and I write me talk, Yeah. 535 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 5: I love Bob's early chord changes and melodies and how 536 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 5: he appropriated Scottish hymns and you know folk balance and 537 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 5: just would have a twist on them both harmonically and melodically. 538 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 5: I just thought was just exceptional. 539 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 1: Is that a particular gift to be able to hear 540 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 1: a melody? Because you know, I hear a lot of 541 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 1: those old songs. I can't hear what other people are hearing. 542 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: I can't hear what's modern and what would translate to 543 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 1: something else? Do you know what I mean? 544 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 5: Much? 545 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 4: Sure? 546 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: You know some people can take an old melody and 547 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: say if you turn it around. 548 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 5: And do this, and I'm like, oh oh. 549 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 1: To me, the trappings of the song, the original kind 550 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: of arrangement, everything about overwhelms my sense of what I 551 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: could pull out. 552 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 6: Of the song. 553 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 4: Well, that does take a particular gift to reappropriate something 554 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 4: that's old, and I mean the Carter family did it too, 555 00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 4: you know, ap Carter find those old songs that were 556 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 4: kind of part of an oral tradition that came from 557 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 4: Scotland and Ireland and reinterpret them into Appellation Ballad. 558 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: I do want to ask you. You joked earlier about 559 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: writing for True Detective that they wanted something dark and 560 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 1: depressing that was right down your alley, But you do 561 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: on this album, having listened to it a couple of times. 562 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: It is about age, It's frequently about dying and seemingly 563 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 1: impenetrable spaces between people. But there is a kind of 564 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 1: spirit of optimism. 565 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 4: I'm an optimist. I always have been as dark as 566 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 4: I can go. I'm still an optimist walking into a nightmare. 567 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 4: I'm still an optimist. I just don't go to despair. 568 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 5: Your heart's too big. 569 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 4: Oh that's very sweet. 570 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: This is going to sound like an odd question. Does 571 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: it make it easier to write about the tough things 572 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 1: in relationships and the tough things about growing older when 573 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: you're ultimately optimistic? 574 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess so. I mean I have a thick 575 00:33:53,520 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 4: skin and an open heart, and I try myself to 576 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 4: go to some dark places and come back. And one 577 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 4: reason I trust myself to come back is because of 578 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 4: John Leventhal, because he's been a tremendous grounding force in 579 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,399 Speaker 4: my life. I think I probably would not have come 580 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 4: back had I not met him. And because of our children. 581 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,359 Speaker 4: You know, it's too selfish to stay in that place. 582 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 4: When you have kids, you have to come back. 583 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: You mentioned some political things have made you cry for 584 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 1: extended periods, But do you believe ultimately, I guess in 585 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:38,879 Speaker 1: the personal relationships and political ones, you believe the long 586 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: arc of history Ben Steward's Justice. 587 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 4: I have to say I felt incredibly discouraged in the 588 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 4: last two years, and I do have optimism. I just 589 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:54,799 Speaker 4: don't know if it's going to happen in my lifetime, 590 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 4: which makes me really sad. 591 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess it is a long arc, the long arc. 592 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: So tell me now about feel me thing worth fighting for. 593 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 4: I wrote the lyrics and t Bone Burnett and Lyra 594 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,279 Speaker 4: Lynn wrote the music. T Bone and I have been 595 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 4: friends for thirty years and he was music supervisor on 596 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 4: True Detective and he just called and said, would you 597 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 4: write some lyrics for True Detective for this new season 598 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 4: coming up? And I said, yeah, like what kind of songs? 599 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,320 Speaker 4: And he said, well, you know, songs that are about 600 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 4: destruction and really dark and maybe a woman who has 601 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 4: a lover who turns into a bird, and you know, 602 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 4: he kept going on and on. I went, Okay, that's 603 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,240 Speaker 4: my wheelhouse. Sure yeah, And I sent him these lyrics 604 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 4: and they wrote the music. But even these, there are 605 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,360 Speaker 4: two songs on the album I wrote for True Detective, 606 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:53,839 Speaker 4: and even those were not like commissioned pieces. They were 607 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 4: not about characters. They were still me. 608 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: Broken Record is produced by Justin Richmond and Jason Gambrel, 609 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:08,800 Speaker 1: with help from Miia Lobel, Jaquita Pascal, Jacob Smith, Julia Barton, 610 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,840 Speaker 1: Jacob Weisberg, and of course Malcolm Gladwell and Rick Rubin. 611 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,800 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Amon Drum and John Leeman of Bridge 612 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 1: Studios in Brooklyn. To hear the songs featured in today's episode, 613 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:24,880 Speaker 1: check out Broken Record podcast dot com. This show is 614 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 1: brought to you by Pushkin Industries. I'm Bruce Headlock.