1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Body dines with Joseph's Gotten More. I got a confession 2 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: to make, probably to my wife Kimmy's great chagrin many times. 3 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 1: Probably my favorite folk slash acoustic artist of the nineteen 4 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: seventies is Gordon Lightfoot. I can't help myself. I could 5 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 1: listen to him for hours and hours, and she can 6 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: tolerate it for a while, but she she gets weary. 7 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: I understand. But there's something about the music that he creates. 8 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: And I had kind of an interesting intersection with Gordon 9 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: Lightfoot's music and my travels. I was out in Arizona 10 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: many years ago. I was at an educational conference and 11 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: we had to get out of town in the middle 12 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: of July. We were in Phoenix and it was broiling hot, 13 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 1: and we decided to take a trip to Sedona, where 14 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: it's about forty degrees cooler. And along the way, I 15 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: looked up and I saw a sign that said care 16 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: Free Highway, and suddenly it came to me that this 17 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 1: was the stretch of road that Gordon or Gordo as 18 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: he's known, wrote the lyrics to the song his hit 19 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 1: from the seventies, care Free Highway, and that song means 20 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: a lot to me. It's so peaceful. But I'm going 21 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: to talk about a case today that is so utterly 22 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: bizarre from what we know at this point, and it 23 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: happens not too far away from that stretch of highway 24 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: care Free Highway, but the circumstances around this case are 25 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: anything but free, and to this moment, there's a killer 26 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: among them out there. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this 27 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 1: is body Bags. Dave. Please tell me, Please tell me 28 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: that you like Gordon Lightfoot. 29 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 2: You know, if you really want to go down that 30 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,079 Speaker 2: I'll throw out Kathy Evelyn Smith if you really want 31 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 2: to I knew it. I knew it. I knew you 32 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 2: were going to go there. 33 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: Er of men. 34 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 2: And she actually is the one who gave John Belushi 35 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 2: the speedball that killed him and then sold her story 36 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 2: to the National Inquirer and that reopened the investigation. Thomas 37 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 2: Deci got involved and they locked her up. There you go. So, yes, 38 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 2: I am a Gordon Lightfoot fan, but hey, I did 39 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 2: not know the story about Carefree Highway. I did not 40 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 2: know that about Arizona. But I do know this. When 41 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 2: you live out there in the in the Southwest, Yeah, 42 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 2: it is a different landscape than other parts of the 43 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 2: country because more than just Latin Dester, you know, it's 44 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 2: just I encourage everyone to spend some time in New 45 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 2: Mexico and Arizona. There are plenty of things to see historical, 46 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 2: there's stuff that get dates back, you know, Native American 47 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 2: stuff that goes back way a long time ago, just 48 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 2: an amazing time. But today's case, Joe, we're talking about 49 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 2: it because it happened in a Maricopa County, Arizona, which 50 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 2: is a big county. You know, Phoenix is in a 51 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 2: Maricopa County. But the area we're talking about is a 52 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 2: very small area, not densely populated, where there's a man 53 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 2: who had served in Vietnam and he came back home 54 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 2: and after his tour in Vietnam, he became a religious 55 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 2: man and studied and became a pastor, and for the 56 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 2: last twenty five years he has pastored this small area church. 57 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 2: He is one of those people that is called a 58 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 2: beloved pastor, a beloved member of the community. He's assault 59 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 2: of the earth kind of guy who liked to rebuild trucks. Joe. 60 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 2: If you actually look at pictures of his property, there's 61 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 2: parts of vehicles all over the place. That he's using 62 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 2: to put others back together. That's what he and his 63 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 2: son do. It's a passion project they have, but his 64 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 2: passion of being a pastor for many, many years, twenty 65 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 2: five years. His wife passed away a couple of years 66 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 2: ago in twenty twenty two. He's now seventy six years old. 67 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 2: William Showman is the man's name. Pastor William Showman was 68 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 2: found dead on April twenty eighth. It was a nine 69 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 2: to one one called Joe, and I need your help 70 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 2: on this because I've been trying to figure out who 71 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 2: the finder was and I can't see it. I don't 72 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 2: find that, but I do know this. The Mericaup County 73 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 2: Sheriff's Office being quiet. They have locked their lips on 74 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 2: this case. All we know is that it appeared that 75 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 2: this pastor of twenty five years was staged like a 76 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 2: crucifixion in his own bed. And it was a nine 77 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 2: one one call that came in from somebody, and that's 78 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 2: but they that's how they found them. We'll get more 79 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 2: in details, but that's that is the setup that boggles 80 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 2: the mind in an area where the people all said, 81 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 2: we don't lock our doors at night, No, we all 82 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:11,279 Speaker 2: know one another. 83 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and it's off of it's actually off of 84 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 1: I think it's I seventeen, if I'm not mistaken. It's 85 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: a major interstate highway that runs north. It heads to Sedona, which, 86 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 1: by the way, going back to Arizona arguably is one 87 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: of the most beautiful places I've been out west. I 88 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: spent time in Arizona in the Army at Fourchuka down 89 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 1: on the Mexican border. Not beautiful. 90 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 2: I was going to ask you about that. I didn't 91 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 2: realize you were stationed there. Yeah. 92 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, well I went through at there in the and 93 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: did training at the Intel School and but and that 94 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: was many moons ago. There were so very hot, not 95 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: as hot as Phoenix, though, you know, it's I've never 96 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: experienced heat like Phoenix, even compared to Vegas. He it. 97 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: Phoenix is down in a bowl and it is. It's 98 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: just it's not sultry because they would say there's no humidity, 99 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: but it is. You bake, you absolutely bake. And it 100 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: takes special kind of person to be there outdoors in 101 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: the summertime. But this case in particular is north of Phoenix, 102 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: and it's really interesting because as you're going northbound out 103 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: of Phoenix, you can actually appreciate the road beginning to rise, Dave, 104 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: because Phoenix sits down in a bowl, so it begins 105 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: to you can feel. It's one of those weird situations 106 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: when you're on a highway. Generally you can't detect elevation changes, 107 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:39,159 Speaker 1: but all the way from Phoenix to Sedona, you could 108 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: actually appreciate the elevation change. And then when we hit 109 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 1: Sedona it was I think like sixty eight and we 110 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: had left Phoenix that was like one hundred and eighteen. 111 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: And you can feel it as it and even the 112 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 1: car temperature reader, the digital thing in there progressively going 113 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 1: down as you go down the road. But it is 114 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: a Sedona is one of the most beautiful places I've 115 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: been to you you actually, it's a very kind of 116 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: you feel. I don't know how to say it. It's 117 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: almost like an outdoor cathedral. When you get there, you 118 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: feel close to God. Yeah, I don't know about that, 119 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: but I know that I felt a lot of peace there, 120 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: and if I was an alien, I would want to 121 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: visit Sedona. 122 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 2: So I enjoyed it. 123 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: I love it, and got a lot of friends out 124 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: in Arizona. But this case in particular, because it is, 125 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: even though it's in Maricopa County and it's you know, 126 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: just north of arguably one of the largest cities in 127 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: the United States. I think for a while Phoenix was 128 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: right up there at like number five or six. I'm 129 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: sure I've got listeners that are out there. They'll say, no, 130 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: we're not at that position, but that's that's roughly kind 131 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: of where the population stood. But when you get out 132 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: of that area, all of a sudden, dude, you're you're 133 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: away from everything else that's developed really really quickly. I've 134 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: never seen it change like that. That's unique to that area, 135 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: I think. And the as you head north, you get 136 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: away from the artificial light of Phoenix and you're out 137 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: there in that desert and it's like the stars at night, 138 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: they just feel so much more illuminated. You feel closer 139 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: to the heavens almost, you can see more. It's absolutely breathtaking. 140 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: I think a lot of it has to do with 141 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: lack of humidity, you know, whereas down here in the South, 142 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: you know, it's yeah, we've got beautiful views at night, 143 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: but it's nothing. And I know you lived in New Mexico, 144 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: there's nothing that really compares to like a western sky, 145 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: and thinking about that, I believe that whoever did this, 146 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: because this would have taken time, would have had to 147 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: been very, very familiar with this poor pastor's house, his 148 00:08:56,559 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 1: comings and goings. They would have needed to have a 149 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 1: lot of privacy. Uh. Maybe they did it in the 150 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: cover of night, because I've been in the desert at 151 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: night and have no need for a flashlight whatsoever. Particularly 152 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 1: in like the more sandy areas, the light seems to 153 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,559 Speaker 1: reflect up off of it. It's a it's a unique world. 154 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: It's almost surreal when you get out there. But I 155 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: was I was thinking about this when you begin to 156 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: think about pastors and their their deaths, particularly as are 157 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: related to something that is so I don't know, it 158 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: has o posed feeling to it. There's there's a real 159 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: creepy element. You know, every every pastor that I have 160 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: ever worked as a death investigator, there was some kind 161 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: of weird spiritual attachment that would occur. I'm not saying 162 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 1: this happened in this man's case, but for instance, I've 163 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: had I had a suicide where a guy was like 164 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: the head deacon in a church and he had taken 165 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: talcum powder and poured it out on the floor and 166 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: created a pentagram and ended his life in the middle 167 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: of the thing because he felt like that he was 168 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,959 Speaker 1: he had committed these unforgivable sins. I've had people that 169 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: were pastors that were killed specifically because of people that 170 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: were parishioners in their local church that didn't agree with 171 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: them or hated them, there was some kind of conflict 172 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 1: with them. And then of course I've had those that were, 173 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 1: you know, had essentially, I think, on one level, abandoned 174 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: God and had created elicit were involved in elicited behaviors 175 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 1: with individuals, many times taking their own lives. But Dave, 176 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: that's that's not what this sounds like to me, at 177 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: least on the surface of it. It sounds as though 178 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: that somebody had an end for him, because we do 179 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: know this, and we're going to have a session here 180 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:02,079 Speaker 1: pretty soon in an episode of body Bags that's really 181 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 1: going to correct language that the press and that the 182 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: authorities use many times they have ruled and I've seen 183 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:16,679 Speaker 1: multiple articles that have said that William Schauman died of homicide. 184 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: He did not die of homicide. His death is a homicide. 185 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,959 Speaker 1: It's just that at this point they haven't told us 186 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 1: specifically what the modality was. I think probably the most 187 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: beautiful cross I've ever seen in my life is in 188 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: South Carolina at a place I used to attend WYMCA 189 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: Camp when I was a little boy. It used to 190 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: be called Camp Greenville YMCAA. It's owned by a private company. 191 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: Now people put up pictures of it all the time. 192 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,079 Speaker 1: It's a play. It's called Pretty Place. And there is 193 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: a gigantic cross on a rock outcropping that they've turned 194 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 1: into an outdoor chapel, and it overlooks like Caesar's Head 195 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: and these weird rock formations that are up there. Beautiful 196 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: beautiful cross that's there at the you know, essentially where 197 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: the altar would be. Views are just fantastic. I cannot 198 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: begin to imagine what it would be like to walk 199 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: into a scene where this beloved man, and I have 200 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: to assume that some of the people that were out there, 201 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:41,199 Speaker 1: even the authorities Dave, would have known him and have 202 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: entered into his residence and have seen him in this condition. 203 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,559 Speaker 1: It baffles to mind, and I think that it really 204 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: says a lot about the person. And I don't mean 205 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: in a good way. I mean there's some kind of 206 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: relational thing that's going on here actually very very chilling, Dave. 207 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 2: You know, the one thing that has consistently come into 208 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 2: reporting is how it is described. And I'm going to 209 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 2: share one thing with you because this is something that 210 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 2: has been shared on a number of different sites, and 211 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 2: this is the exact wording. The preacher was lying dead 212 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 2: on his bed. His arms were spread out and his 213 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 2: hands were pinned to the wall in a faux crucifixion 214 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 2: that sickened even veteran homicide detectives. That's the opening line 215 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 2: because the staging of this body, and you've taught me 216 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,559 Speaker 2: about posing bodies and things and how they are staged 217 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 2: for dramatic effect, to truly impact those who find the body. 218 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 2: What we don't know about this case are the details. 219 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 2: All we have been told is that what you just heard, 220 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 2: That information was given out right away, but they immediately 221 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 2: said the community is not at risk. 222 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: Right I think that that's yeah, Yeah, that's fascinating because 223 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: that's a huge conclusion to draw because I got to 224 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 1: tell you, I don't care if I'm living five miles 225 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: away from this guy. I'm worried. If I've got a family, 226 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: I'm worried. But you're telling me not to worry, because 227 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: they're saying that the public is not in danger, there's 228 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: nothing to fear, and so by saying that, the fact though, 229 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: what you're implying as a public safety official is that 230 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: this is something that was at the hand of either 231 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: somebody that is known to them or there was some 232 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: kind of indication that was left at the scene that 233 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: this was not related to anybody else in the community, 234 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: and that this individual has I don't know, flown the 235 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: coop if you will. They're no longer there posing a danger. 236 00:14:54,520 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 1: Because dude, I'm not saying i'd sleep with a firearm 237 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: underneath my pillow, however, uh it would. 238 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 2: It would be. 239 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: One of my first inclinations, I think, because if I've 240 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: got this this guy as you as you stated, in 241 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: a rural area where they don't lock their doors, what 242 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: type of perpetrator would be able to come into an 243 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: environment like this and feel comfortable enough to quote unquote 244 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: pin the hands to the wall. And this is another 245 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: another little point of order here, Dave. When I say, 246 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: when I say the term pinning, okay, just extrapolate from that. 247 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: I'd love to hear it hear it from you. What 248 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: what does that imply to you. 249 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 2: Well, that's actually in my notes to ask you, because 250 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 2: when I first heard about this and it said pinned, 251 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 2: I'm thinking of how you put pressure on the hands 252 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 2: and push against something, whether it's the floor and you're 253 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 2: you're going to give me your brother this bit treatment, 254 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 2: or is it against the wall to hold something there 255 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 2: that to me is pinned? There is something holding the 256 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,359 Speaker 2: hand to the wall. And if the arms are outstretched 257 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 2: and this is in some type of a crucifixion nod. 258 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 2: Did they actually pin it with nails? 259 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: Yeah? 260 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 2: Did they? They're not saying that. I'm just saying I 261 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 2: don't know what pinned actually means. 262 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: You start, yeah, I mean, you start throwing around image. 263 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: I mean you start vocalizing imagery, like in the form 264 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: of a crucifixion, and you start using the term pin 265 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: with hands Automatically, I'm thinking, well, is there some what 266 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: type of I mean, Okay, let's just say this. I 267 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 1: guess you could take someone that is dead and put 268 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: super clue on the back of their hands and glue 269 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: their hands to the wall or a POxy if you 270 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: were so inclined, maybe you could tie them in some 271 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: weird way. I don't know. Maybe he had hooks on 272 00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: his wall, and they were tied to the wall. But 273 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: that's that's not but that's not what that means to 274 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 1: me because pinning, I mean, it's just let's think about 275 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: a common term that's used in our vernacular. You're in 276 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: a meeting and somebody says, I tell you what, let's 277 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 1: put a pin in that for right now. Well, when 278 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:16,360 Speaker 1: you put a pin in something, that means that you're 279 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:20,199 Speaker 1: taking a metal object, generally sharp, and you stick it 280 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 1: to hold it in place. Now, maybe I'm going to 281 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: turn out to be way off base here, but all 282 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: of the imagery that this is kind of conjuring up here, Dave, 283 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:32,919 Speaker 1: it certainly gives us pause, doesn't it to think about it. 284 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: You know, who would want to do this? And I 285 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: think one of the big questions I'm going to have 286 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: to ask Dave, and you know I'm going to go 287 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 1: here this pinning. Is the pinning anti mortem or is 288 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: it post mortem? Because if it's anti mortem, how are 289 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 1: you going to get this guy? And granted, how old 290 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: did you say William was? 291 00:17:58,119 --> 00:17:59,360 Speaker 2: He's seventy six years old. 292 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: Okay, he's seventy he's in his mid seventies. He's Vietnam vet. 293 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 1: We know that he works outside with his hands. It's 294 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: not like he's couch potato. This guy wrestles around engine parts, 295 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 1: all right, So he's no, I don't know he's aelion. No, 296 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: he's not a dandelion. You're absolutely right. He's out there 297 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 1: working in the hot sun doing what he loves. If 298 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 1: you put your hands on him, then you're going to 299 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 1: have a problem. Now, Listen, the problem might not last 300 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: a long time, but dude's going to resist. I can 301 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 1: tell you that. So if he is being pinned in 302 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: some manner that they're referring to, then was this done 303 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 1: before he died? If it's done before he died, Dave, 304 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: then we're we've opened up a completely different can of 305 00:18:54,240 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 1: worms here, because being being pinned in life with an 306 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: object you're approaching or maybe your smack dab in the 307 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: middle of what I would say is torture. If there's 308 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: torture involved, I have to say that there is an 309 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: inordinate amount of anger involved, and maybe we begin to 310 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: paint a picture of who's involved in this as far 311 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: as a perpetrator or perpetrators. Now we can't just simply 312 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: say that it's one person that did this, all right, 313 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 1: because I got to tell you, if hands are pinned 314 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: and you're doing it to somebody that is alive, like 315 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: christ was, you're going to have to hold their arm 316 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 1: down while somebody else pins them to this surface. Now, 317 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 1: if it's post mortem, that means if it happened after death, 318 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 1: then what do we make of that. Well, I've had 319 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 1: serial killings where bodies have meant. You mentioned this before, 320 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: where bodies have been posed many times is for the 321 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 1: shock value, as crazy as it is. I think back 322 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: to that movie back in the nineties with Brad Pitt Morgan, 323 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,959 Speaker 1: Freeman seven, and for those of you that are familiar 324 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 1: with that movie, each one of those well, first off, 325 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: each one of those deaths represented one of the seven 326 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,360 Speaker 1: Deadly sins, and every one of those bodies in some 327 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 1: way was kind of posed and it was meant to 328 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 1: be a shocking event. Most serialized events that use posing. 329 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 1: First off, the individual is in a fantasy world that 330 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: does it, or they are attempting to shock the finder, 331 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: whoever that might be. Well, we have to look at 332 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: a list and say, well, who could have been the 333 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: finder in this case? Who would have intimate enough contact 334 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: with him? And I don't mean that in a disrespectful way. 335 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: I'm saying, who has access and opportunity to him at 336 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:02,160 Speaker 1: any moment time you'd mentioned that you know his son 337 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 1: worked with him, Well, did his son find his daddy? 338 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 1: Like this is his son the one that walked into 339 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:10,919 Speaker 1: the house. Say again, you think. 340 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 2: We would be told that though, that he was found 341 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,160 Speaker 2: by his son, because we're not getting mad. I spent 342 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 2: a lot of time trying to find the finder because 343 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 2: it had a nine one well call. One call comes 344 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 2: in around seven thirty at night on the twenty eighth 345 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 2: of April, and that nine to one one call was 346 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:32,880 Speaker 2: about finding him dad. But we don't know who made 347 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 2: the call or why the call was made. So I 348 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 2: was looking to see if this was another one of 349 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 2: our making a welfare check call, you know, because the 350 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,159 Speaker 2: guy I'm going to assume, and this is always the 351 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,479 Speaker 2: wrong thing to do. I just haven't seen anything different 352 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 2: to imply that he has that somebody's living with him. 353 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 2: That's how I found. His wife passed in twenty twenty two, 354 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 2: so for the last couple of years it's just been 355 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 2: him and he was found. But here's the other part, Joe, 356 00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 2: is that besides the body being posed sides the hands 357 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 2: being pinned to the wall. We also are being told 358 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 2: that his body had other significant injuries, and in some 359 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:16,679 Speaker 2: of the reports they've gone so far to say his 360 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 2: body was mutilated. So we've got not I mean, what 361 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 2: killed him, we don't know. They don't say he was 362 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 2: shot in the head and then posed. They don't tell 363 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 2: us how he died. He could have been alive. Maybe 364 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,400 Speaker 2: it was a stage crucifixion and they let him bleed out. 365 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 2: We don't know. We don't know anything other than that 366 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 2: a man who was generally loved by the community, a 367 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 2: community of seventeen thousand people about, you know, fifty five 368 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 2: miles outside of Phoenix, a man that everybody respected, knew 369 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 2: and cared for, a pastor nonetheless the last twenty five years. 370 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 2: And he's done this way in such a disrespectful post. 371 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 2: And then the Maericapa County Sheriff's office tell us don't 372 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 2: worry about it, it's a one off. I mean, they 373 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 2: have to know something right to say that. I don't 374 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 2: need to lock my doors. I don't need to get worried, 375 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 2: because I'm be honest, Joe, if it happens across the 376 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 2: street in my neighborhood, I'm moving a shotgun to the 377 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 2: front door. 378 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:17,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to you have to think that, uh, 379 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: that every every lead has been exhausted at this point 380 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,199 Speaker 1: in time. And I find it it was It was 381 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: kind of interesting. William's son, uh uh, he actually went 382 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: by Bill. Bill's son, Randy had stated that they've been 383 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: getting a lot of support and that people are are 384 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 1: reaching out to try to help them, because you know, 385 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 1: Bill was the type of guy that helped people, obviously 386 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: in his congregation. I think that, you know, I don't 387 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: think it's too far to say that they had become 388 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 1: a de facto family for him, particularly in the wake 389 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: of a loss of a wife like this, this was 390 00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: his life. Who in the world would want to do 391 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:06,919 Speaker 1: this level of harm to this poor man that, in 392 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: my opinion, involves restraint, possibly torture, and ultimately murder. There's 393 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: been some controversy over the years about the crucifixion of 394 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,679 Speaker 1: Christ about where the injuries were, specifically on his body. 395 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 1: Some people have held that he was perhaps nailed through 396 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,679 Speaker 1: his wrist because the bones of the hand cannot support 397 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: a body. And then, you know, I think that we 398 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 1: have scriptured. Dave, you can chime in on this that 399 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 1: says that, And I think it was Thomas, you know 400 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: that came to great you know, and he said, because 401 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 1: he wasn't present when Christ appeared. He said, until I 402 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: touch or is it placed my finger into the nails, 403 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 1: carred hands, or touch his side, I'm not going to believe. 404 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:14,199 Speaker 1: And so this opens up in an interesting kind of 405 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 1: valve in this whole thing. Logistically, how you're going to 406 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:19,199 Speaker 1: work the scene as an investigator? 407 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 2: Was I right? 408 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 1: Scripturally by the way, I mean? 409 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 2: Yeah? And the boy we're going to be playing with. 410 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 2: You know, people love to debate things, to worry about 411 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 2: the Bible, and I'm just going to tell you this, 412 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 2: the Bible wasn't written in English. Jesus didn't speak English. Yeah, 413 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 2: and although the red letters are beautiful and those are 414 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 2: the words he said, they weren't said in English. Just 415 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 2: saying now to get to this, I'm wondering, Joe. I'm 416 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,120 Speaker 2: in my head, I'm picturing the scene and I'm trying 417 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 2: to figure out how do you go about beginning to 418 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 2: investigate what took place when you've got a body that's 419 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 2: staged and you know you're going to destroy evidence the 420 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,439 Speaker 2: first time you move. Yes, because yes, you are body 421 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 2: being staged is evidence in and of itself. Yeah, you are. 422 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 1: And here's a little aside for you here, my friend. 423 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,400 Speaker 1: You never know, I think as an investigator what kind 424 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,679 Speaker 1: of tools you're going to need when you show up 425 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 1: at a scene, because people have a way when they die, 426 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: either at their own hand or at the hand of another, 427 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: of putting themselves in these odd positions where it's something 428 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: that scientifically you're not calculating that when you go out 429 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 1: to a scene and you walk in. I had a 430 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: guy that was stuck down into a grease trap one 431 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: time trying to break into a building and got stuck 432 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: over a stove and he actually cooked to death over 433 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,880 Speaker 1: a stove at a Jamaican restaurant. He had second third 434 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 1: degree burns on his lower body. Well myself and the 435 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: fire department had to try to come up with a 436 00:26:55,240 --> 00:27:01,679 Speaker 1: way to dislodge him, if you will, from this trap. 437 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: So you never know from the grease trap, you never 438 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: know what you're going to encounter and what kind of 439 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: tools you're going to need. And I'm thinking about this case, 440 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,679 Speaker 1: and again we don't know this for a fact, but 441 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,199 Speaker 1: if let's just look at it from the perspective of 442 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: talking about destroying evidence if we have to unpin him, 443 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,199 Speaker 1: which we would have to because the body is going 444 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 1: to go to the americ Coopa County Medical Examiner's Office, 445 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: by the way, one of the finest medical examiner's offices 446 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: in the nation bar none. I mean, they have for 447 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 1: years had this stellar reputation there of doing fantastic work. 448 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: Because if you're going to transport him back, what are 449 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,159 Speaker 1: you going to do cut the wall out over the 450 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 1: bed and leave him pinned in this position. You can't 451 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: do that. Now. We have had to do certain things 452 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 1: where we cut walls out to recover projectiles. Let me 453 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: see what else have we done in in the past. 454 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: We've left bodies inside of burned cars and transported those bodies. 455 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:10,719 Speaker 1: I've had pipes sticking out of bodies where I had 456 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 1: to transport the body with the pipe still in place. 457 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: I've had tree branches where people have been impelled on 458 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 1: and just took a chainsaw and cut so that I 459 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: left like a foot on each side of the body 460 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: and transported the body in with that in place, so 461 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 1: that we could X ray it and just have an 462 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,160 Speaker 1: understanding what organ systems had passed or before we ever 463 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: put the cold steel to the body. This is different though, 464 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: You've got a body that is anchored. I like that 465 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 1: term maybe a little bit better than penned that's anchored 466 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: to the wall. I don't know what kind of anchoring 467 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: mechanism they were using. Okay, and let's just think about Okay, 468 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: we'll go back to the example of Christ. Okay, we 469 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: think about traditionally the spikes that had been used. Now, 470 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: those are are very bold, you know when you think 471 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 1: about it, and it require something other than say a 472 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: finishing hammer that a carpenter would have to use. You're 473 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:11,239 Speaker 1: talking about using something that would approximate a handheld a 474 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: sledge hammer or a ball pen hammer or something like that. 475 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: Or was it simply that they took roofing nails or 476 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 1: they used I don't know, you name it concrete nails 477 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 1: or whatever the case might be. And there are a 478 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: variety of different sizes of nails. Well, how am I 479 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: going to dislodge his hand from that anchor point? You 480 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: know what I'm going to do first, I Am probably 481 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: not going to pull the nail out of the hand. 482 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: I'm going to try to get his hand with the 483 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: nail in place, dislodged from the wall. And the purpose 484 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: in doing that is that I want to be able 485 00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: to in a controlled environment extra take X rays of 486 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: the hands. Okay, first off, we're documenting it, right, we 487 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: can appreciate the wound track with the object in place. Secondly, 488 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: i'm documenting it. Can you imagine how powerful that is 489 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: in court? You're not going to show. You don't have 490 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: to show a bloody a bloody photograph at autopsy. All 491 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: you have to do is take that radiograph and put 492 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: it up on the board. Defense can't argue about that 493 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: because the prosecution would say, uh, yeah, you know, doctor Smith, 494 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: what are you seeing here? What is this object? It's 495 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 1: a nail and they'll give the specific type of nail 496 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: and how is it in there? Well, sir, I got 497 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: to tell you it appears that it was hammered through 498 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 1: the victim's hand and into the wall where it was pinned. 499 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: So based upon this, what's your assessment? Well, the doctor 500 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: will say one or two things, Brother Dave. He's either 501 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: going to say that there is a wound track with 502 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: hemorrhage associated with it, or there's no hemorrhage in there. 503 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 1: And so we'll be able to understand contextually, was he 504 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: alive or was he dead when this happened? And if 505 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,959 Speaker 1: he has all of these other injuries that you have 506 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: referred to that they keep mentioning, we don't precisely know 507 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: what those injuries are, but let me just run down 508 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: a list of what could happen if you've got injuries 509 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 1: that have been inflicted on a body of an individual 510 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: that is restrained, even if they're restrained with nails. It 511 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: could be beating, it could be cutting, it could be stomping, 512 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: it could be pushing, I mean, punching. There's a number 513 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: of things that would manifest themselves on the body because 514 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: I can't imagine whilst you would want to pin this 515 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 1: individual to a wall. So what are the nature of 516 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 1: those injuries as well? And each one of those injuries 517 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 1: will be assessed and another piece to this that's going 518 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 1: to be hugely important day. We know that he's laying 519 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: on a bed. This is not like he's laying in 520 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 1: the dirt or even hung on a Christian cross. Okay, 521 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: He's laying on a bed on a mattress. Guess what 522 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: a mattress is like. It's like a plowed garden where 523 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,719 Speaker 1: seed has been put out. If you imagine the surface 524 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: of the mattress as a plowed garden with furrows in 525 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: it and seeds or bits of evidence, and it holds 526 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 1: onto it, it gets into the dirt, into the strata 527 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 1: of the mattress. That mattress is going to be invaluable 528 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: because when you think about all of the activities, someone 529 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 1: would probably have had to have gotten onto that mattress 530 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,239 Speaker 1: in order to facilitate the positioning of the hands. If 531 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 1: it's more than one person, you're going to have one 532 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: person holding while the other person is putting the pins 533 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: quote unquote in place, or even tying whatever the nature 534 00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: of this is. So the mattress is really going to 535 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: come in place. You're going to have a lot of 536 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: blood evidence. I would imagine you're probably going to have 537 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: tissue and hair that comes from this victim's body. In 538 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 1: addition to that, whatever else these perpetrator, the perpetrator perpetrators 539 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: had on them is going to transfer. And let me 540 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 1: tell you one more thing, going back to the cart's principle, 541 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 1: whatever they did to build in that bed will have 542 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 1: transferred to them as well. So if they're out there 543 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: and they I don't know, they're still wearing the same 544 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 1: clothes because this person sounds like a mad man or 545 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: mad people. Maybe they've retained the clothing. If not, maybe 546 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: they've disposed of it. But if that clothing can be found, 547 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: you would have to explain why bills. Biological evidence is 548 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 1: on there, and I'm talking everything from hair, blood, skin, 549 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 1: and of course everybody's favorite DNA. This is going to 550 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:58,680 Speaker 1: be an evidence rich environment. I'm going to be very interested, 551 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 1: I think, first off, to see who may have visited 552 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: Bill's church. There was a reference that was made to 553 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,479 Speaker 1: a sermon that he had preached, and we don't really 554 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,359 Speaker 1: know what the context of the sermon was, or what 555 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 1: the topic was, or even what the scripture reading was, 556 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,799 Speaker 1: but we know that he had given his last sermon. Well, Dave, 557 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 1: this is not too far away from an interstate highway. 558 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: What if somebody had said, you know what, I think, 559 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 1: I'm going to go into this little town. I'm going 560 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: to roll up to this church. I'm going to go 561 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: in and listen to what they have to say, and 562 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,320 Speaker 1: maybe something clicked with that individual. Maybe it was something 563 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,719 Speaker 1: that really angered them and they said, Okay, I'm going 564 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:42,319 Speaker 1: to come back and I'm going to get this guy. 565 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 1: It could be that simple or that complex, so you 566 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 1: have all of these things that kind of run through 567 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,359 Speaker 1: your mind. A church has progressively over the last few 568 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:58,839 Speaker 1: years become a very dangerous place. We've had pastors, priests, shot, stabbed, 569 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 1: beaten to death, all these sorts of things. You never 570 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 1: know who's lurking outside and who is going to be inside. 571 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: You think of it as a place of peace, a refuge, 572 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: a cleft in the rock, if you will, to get 573 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:17,280 Speaker 1: away from the storms of life. But unfortunately, in this case, 574 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 1: in this place that Bill had called home for all 575 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,479 Speaker 1: of these years, where he had lived, a life where 576 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: he had assembled old cars, even worked on planes, a 577 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: place of peace he had found after the war in Vietnam, 578 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 1: a place where his wife had passed away. There's a 579 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 1: pervasive evil that has been visited upon this man of God. 580 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybags.