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Speaker 1: Ah beat Force. If it doesn't work, you're just not

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Speaker 1: using enough. You're listening to software a Gradio special operations,

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Speaker 1: military news and straight talk with the guys and the community.

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Speaker 1: Yea software Radio on Time on Target. We have Andrew J.

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Speaker 1: Polski or I know it's say Andy Polsky in studio,

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Speaker 1: author of Elusive Victories, The American Presidency at War. Although

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Speaker 1: you're not really out of the book tour promoting this

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Speaker 1: because it came out, but it's a book that's extremely

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Speaker 1: relevant today. Um Andy earned his PhD from Princeton University,

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Speaker 1: political science professor at Hunter College and Cooney's Graduate Center.

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Speaker 1: Also authored The Rise of the Therapeutic State. And this

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Speaker 1: book although as I said, from very relevant today. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: then in some ways that's unfortunate because it just means

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Speaker 1: that the wars I was writing about in are still

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Speaker 1: going on. Yeah. I mean it's incredibly important, and I

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Speaker 1: think maybe that's where we should focus on today, is

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Speaker 1: the global War on terror. Because you chose a number

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Speaker 1: of president American presidents who were serving during times of war,

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Speaker 1: going back to Abraham Lincoln, but you also profiled George W.

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Speaker 1: Bush and Barack Obama's administration. But then the book came

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Speaker 1: out before the Donald Trump administration, So if you're willing

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Speaker 1: we talk a little bit about that as well, that's

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Speaker 1: as good a place to start as any. Sure. Um,

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Speaker 1: So I mean, do you want to tell us first off,

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Speaker 1: you know what the thrust of of your book, Elusive

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Speaker 1: Victories is. Sure? Well, the book the book emerged after

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Speaker 1: the American invasion of Iraq in two thousand three. Um,

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Speaker 1: I'm a political scientist. I've been teaching about the presidency

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Speaker 1: and political parties. It turned out people in political science

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Speaker 1: hadn't We're not writing about wartime presidents, and there we

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Speaker 1: were thrust into the middle of a war. So I

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Speaker 1: began to do research and writing on it. And I

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Speaker 1: came at it originally from what I would call a

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Speaker 1: traditional liberal skepticism about presidents and war powers, which is

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Speaker 1: that going back to Vietnam. Um, there have been people

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Speaker 1: who wrote then and this was the general view that

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Speaker 1: presidents had too many war powers, that they could get

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Speaker 1: America into conflicts and then make it impossible for Congress

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Speaker 1: to get us out of conflicts. Um. This was Arthur's

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Speaker 1: Sassenger Jr's thesis and the Imperial presidency, and he traced

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Speaker 1: all of the ways in which the powers of presidents

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Speaker 1: have increased over time to get the country into military conflicts. Okay, um,

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Speaker 1: But then as I looked more closely at it, I

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Speaker 1: came to see how actually how little power presidents have

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Speaker 1: to determine the outcomes of conflicts. And in fact, the

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Speaker 1: more powerful we make them in terms of having a

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Speaker 1: large standing military that they can deploy anywhere in the world,

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Speaker 1: and have in modern times done that, the worst the

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Speaker 1: results have been in military conflicts at Vieta in Vietnam

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Speaker 1: as an example, um Iraq was an example emerging as

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Speaker 1: an example at the time. So something was going on.

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Speaker 1: There were these supposedly all powerful presidents found themselves um

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Speaker 1: I would use it, and they weren't muscular, They became

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Speaker 1: muscle bound. They were actually not able to accomplish what

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Speaker 1: they wanted to accomplish. And that was really the start

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Speaker 1: of where the where where I was when I took

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Speaker 1: when I took on the book project to try and

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Speaker 1: figure out some of these puzzles about the relationship between

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Speaker 1: power and accomplishment a lack of accomplishment. Listening to your skepticism,

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Speaker 1: it sounds a little bit like the writings of John

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Speaker 1: Muir Scheimer or Stephen Walt, who expressed a lot of

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Speaker 1: skepticism about what the US government can realistically accomplish in

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Speaker 1: these overseas conflicts. I think that the Iraq or is

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Speaker 1: a really good example. George W. Bush essentially decides he

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Speaker 1: can take American military power anywhere he wants to. There's

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Speaker 1: no competing superpower in the early two thousand's, there's no

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Speaker 1: real restraint on what he can do. And the nine

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Speaker 1: eleven attack created this very these very permissive circumstances where

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Speaker 1: arguing that the war on terror would take us anywhere

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Speaker 1: that there were terrorists meant that he could pretty much

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Speaker 1: go with the U. S military where he wanted to.

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Speaker 1: And if it was Afghanistan, fine, But Afghanistan wasn't a

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Speaker 1: good setting to make a demonstration of what American power

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Speaker 1: could accomplish. Even if you rebuilt Afghanistan, it was in

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Speaker 1: an out of the way place. Iraq middle in the

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Speaker 1: center of the Middle East, a strategically vital area. My goodness.

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Speaker 1: If you can turn Iraq into a functioning liberal democracy,

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Speaker 1: the consequences across the Middle East would be enormous. That's

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Speaker 1: a very bold ambition to have at the start of

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Speaker 1: a conflict, very unrealistic in fact, But that was where

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Speaker 1: George Bush envisioned us going in two thousand three. Um.

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Speaker 1: So there's the lack of constraint um and the belief

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Speaker 1: that you could take us um and do with American

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Speaker 1: power just about anything you wanted to was a characteristic

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Speaker 1: of the Bush administration in its early phase. We've come

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Speaker 1: a long way since then. I think, even though we're

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Speaker 1: still embroiled in these conflicts, over time, the goals of

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Speaker 1: what we hope to accomplish, whether it was Afghanistan, Iraq,

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Speaker 1: or any place else, have become much more modest um

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Speaker 1: in reaction to our failure to achieve many of the

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Speaker 1: things we thought we might achieve in two thousand three.

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Speaker 1: Do you think the UH I want to ask you

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Speaker 1: about the a U m F, the Authorization for the

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Speaker 1: Use of Military force that came around after nine eleven.

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Speaker 1: Do you see that as a just a massive abuse

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Speaker 1: or potential abuse of presidential power or something that's inherently dangerous.

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Speaker 1: It's we've had open ended congressional resolutions that have pitched

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Speaker 1: us into that have allowed our empowered presidents to go

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Speaker 1: into conflicts. Presidents don't actually necessarily need them. I mean,

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Speaker 1: Harry Truman didn't get a declaration when he went into Korea.

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Speaker 1: He invoked the United Nations police powers and said that

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Speaker 1: was sufficient. But what Harry Truman taught presidents was it's

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Speaker 1: foolish to go into a military conflict without Congress being

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Speaker 1: behind you, because if things don't go well, you're out

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Speaker 1: on your own, all right. They don't own the war.

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Speaker 1: You own the war. So no one wants to make

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Speaker 1: the Truman mistake. Lyndon John and used the Tong Can

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Speaker 1: Golf Resolution again, and that's an open ended invitation for

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Speaker 1: to expand American military operations in Vietnam um. And he

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Speaker 1: used that so when and Congress in two thousand two,

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Speaker 1: when the resolution authorizing force was adopted by Congress, was

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Speaker 1: in a terrible position to say, no, you have nine

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Speaker 1: eleven still just a year behind you. It's in everybody's memory.

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Speaker 1: And then you have Democrats in two thousand two running

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Speaker 1: for reelection afraid of being soft on terrorism. Any of

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Speaker 1: them who were contemplating running for the presidency in two

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Speaker 1: thousand four wanted to be on record as being strong

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Speaker 1: on terrorism. So you have the John Kerry's and the

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Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton's of the world in the Senate voting for

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Speaker 1: this resolution, they soon feel that the war is going

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Speaker 1: badly and wanted to take an opposition position. But then

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Speaker 1: they are subject to the to the criticism that they're

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Speaker 1: changing their minds just because things are a little bit tough. UM.

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Speaker 1: I don't fault George. I think what George Bush did,

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Speaker 1: George W. Bush did in two thousand two was shrewd.

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Speaker 1: I think he wanted to get the country behind him.

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Speaker 1: His father had done so in the Gulf War, but

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Speaker 1: via much via very narrow margin. His His resolution to

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Speaker 1: authority to support the use of force in Congress passed

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Speaker 1: by just a few votes that many many people in Congress,

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Speaker 1: many Democrats in particular, wanted to give sanctions more time.

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Speaker 1: Push forty three wanted a wider mandate, and and he

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Speaker 1: took advantage of the timing to do that. Congress is

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Speaker 1: not an effective restraint on presidents when they are about

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Speaker 1: to send the United States into a military conflict. It

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Speaker 1: isn't um and that's that's not going to work very

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Speaker 1: well in the future. UM. I think when Obama talked

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Speaker 1: about getting a resolution to go into Syria, UM, what

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Speaker 1: he was really hoping was that the lack of congressional

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Speaker 1: enthusiasm would give him an excuse not to go into

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Speaker 1: a conflict. He didn't want that. You can try to

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Speaker 1: outsource it to the Brits at first, didn't they where

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Speaker 1: they were trying to see if the House of Parliament

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Speaker 1: would would authorize some sort of all the specifics. You

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Speaker 1: may be right about that, yeah, uh. And then I

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Speaker 1: think it failed there, and then I think partially as

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Speaker 1: a result, it failed here. Um. But yeah, Obama of

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Speaker 1: course came in and he campaigned on this idea that

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Speaker 1: Iraq was the bad war, in Afghanistan was the good war,

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Speaker 1: and he was going to get us out of Iraq,

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Speaker 1: which he did. Um. You talk a little bit about that,

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Speaker 1: and I think, of course we have hindsight now. And

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Speaker 1: and I was deployed to Iraq in two thousand nine

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Speaker 1: with special forces. When we were the mandate was to

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Speaker 1: wind things down to transition authority over to the Iraqis.

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Speaker 1: And you know, people like me could look around and

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Speaker 1: quite easily see like that they're not ready like this, this,

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Speaker 1: the institutions of government aren't there. The corruption is endemic.

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Speaker 1: It's it's going to be horrendous. Um. But there's a

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Speaker 1: tremendous amount of pressure on the junior officers to say

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Speaker 1: end up false reports, making things seem much more rosier

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Speaker 1: than they were echoes of Vietnam, when the body counts

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Speaker 1: got inflated as they went up the chain of command.

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Speaker 1: So by the time information got to Westmoreland, it really

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Speaker 1: did seem to mean that the Communists are being killed

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Speaker 1: more quickly than they were being and then they could

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Speaker 1: be replaced. Um. And that was a very corrupt, a

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Speaker 1: remarkably corrupt system. UM. But this is a fact of

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Speaker 1: organization life. I think if the people above you say

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Speaker 1: they want they want want to a kind of result,

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Speaker 1: you want to give them what they want. Um. So

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Speaker 1: Obama comes in, and I think any Democrat coming into

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Speaker 1: the White House in two thousand nine is going to

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Speaker 1: find a way to extricate the United States from the

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Speaker 1: Iraq War. It is deeply unpopular, It cost George bush

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Speaker 1: Um public support, so that by two thousand six, the

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Speaker 1: Democrats have control of Congress. By two thousand nine, aided

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Speaker 1: by the eight by the fiscal collapse in two thousand eight,

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Speaker 1: they win the White House. But if it's if it's

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Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton, she finds a way out. If it's Obama.

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Speaker 1: He finds a way out. Now. His particular way of campaigning,

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Speaker 1: as you point out Iraq is he calls at the

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Speaker 1: war of choice Afghanistan the war of necessity. Afghanistan is

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Speaker 1: where nine eleven attacks were planned and launched. The Taliban

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Speaker 1: is coming back in Afghanistan. We can't afford to have

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Speaker 1: the Taliban come back because that that's an invitation for

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Speaker 1: al Qaeda to come back in Afghanistan. Um, the war

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Speaker 1: in Afghanistan has gone badly for the past two or

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Speaker 1: three years. The government has control has weakened. So Obama

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Speaker 1: depicts that as a war of necessity. That gives him

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Speaker 1: um and his victory gives him the status to extricate

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Speaker 1: the United States from the war in a in Iran Iraq. Sorry,

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Speaker 1: but it also commits him he's got to figure out

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Speaker 1: a way to win in Afghanistan or to you know,

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Speaker 1: to fight that war of necessity. So he's unlike someone

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Speaker 1: like Richard Nixon in nine who gets elected promising peace

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Speaker 1: with honor, which communal most anything, right. The only thing

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Speaker 1: you can't do with when you promise peace with with honor,

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Speaker 1: you cannot withdraw unilaterally, and you cannot escalate substantially, but

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Speaker 1: pretty much anything else is on the table, which is

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Speaker 1: the way Richard Nixon wanted. With Obama, his hands are tied.

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Speaker 1: He's got to prevail in some way in Afghanistan. He

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Speaker 1: quickly realizes that's not practical UM the United States. He's

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Speaker 1: not prepared to make a ten year commitment to counterinsurgency UM,

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Speaker 1: but he can allow the government to collapse. He starts

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Speaker 1: slipping into decisions that push him in a particular way.

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Speaker 1: Nation building is very unpopular. It's an unpopular idea, right,

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Speaker 1: but the but he needs to buy time. There's an

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Speaker 1: election in Afghanistan in two thousand nine. It's six months

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Speaker 1: after his he comes into the White House. He's worn

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Speaker 1: by the military. The government in Afghanistan is on the

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Speaker 1: verge of collapse. The elections that are supposed to be

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Speaker 1: held may not come off if the United States doesn't

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Speaker 1: um provide greater stability. So he initially agrees to a

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Speaker 1: very modest troop increase in Afghanistan. Then he's doing a

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Speaker 1: strategic review, and strategic reviews by presidents in wars that

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Speaker 1: aren't going well almost always take There's a kind of

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Speaker 1: form that they take, which is the military gives president

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Speaker 1: three options. UM. One option is to withdraw, de escalate,

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Speaker 1: wind down the war. UM. The other one is to

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Speaker 1: escalate dramatically, and the third one in the middle is

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Speaker 1: to do more of what you're doing, maybe with a

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Speaker 1: few more troops. It's superficially always the one that seems

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Speaker 1: the most reasonable. So one thing I would say to

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Speaker 1: a president, be aware of the three option approach when

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Speaker 1: when you're talking to your advisors, because it almost always

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Speaker 1: will turn out to be the case that only the

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Speaker 1: one in the middle seems to make sense. Now, in

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Speaker 1: the case of Afghanistan, UM, Obama, to his credit, encourage

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Speaker 1: Joe Biden, then vice Vice president, who favored a counter

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Speaker 1: terrorism approach, to argue strongly for that approach UM, even

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Speaker 1: though other advisors didn't agree with Biden, he wanted to

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Speaker 1: make sure that was on the table. The historical parallel

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Speaker 1: that was an Obama's mind was Lyndon Johnson coming into

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Speaker 1: the Vietnam situation in sixty four and nineteen sixty five

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Speaker 1: considering whether to involve the United States more deeply, and

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Speaker 1: Obama knew from his readings that UM Johnson hadn't had

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Speaker 1: a broad spectrum reviews UM and that nobody with sufficient

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Speaker 1: stature who was opposed escalation was really in the room.

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Speaker 1: There was George Ball, who was an under Secretary of State,

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Speaker 1: who argued that Vietnam was a road to nowhere for

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Speaker 1: the United States, that it couldn't prevail. It was the

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Speaker 1: wrong war to fight in the wrong place. And and

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Speaker 1: Johnson went through a kind of ritual argument with George

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Speaker 1: Ball every time they talked about sending a few more

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Speaker 1: troops or increasing the bombing campaign. George Ball would say,

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Speaker 1: this is a mistake, and Lyndon Johnson would would say,

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Speaker 1: you make some good points. And then somebody else in

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Speaker 1: the room MC George Bundy or somebody else would say,

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Speaker 1: but we can't allow the communists to win here. This

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Speaker 1: is a critical part of our international strategy. If they

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Speaker 1: win here, they'll they'll go on from here to explace

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Speaker 1: in white Place. Um, we can't. We can't afford to lose.

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Speaker 1: And Johnson would eventually say, I don't like this war,

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Speaker 1: but you're right, I really have no choice but to

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Speaker 1: fight it. Uh and and Obama didn't want to have

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Speaker 1: that kind of debate, so he wanted to have a

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Speaker 1: serious argument about it. Now. He Obama was wrong about

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Speaker 1: one thing. Um in two thousand nine, when Obama becomes president.

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Speaker 1: It's not in any way analogous to Lyndon Johnson in

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four. That's the start of the escalation. Obama's

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Speaker 1: coming in at the end of the war. It's going

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Speaker 1: to have to be the end of the war in

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Speaker 1: a sense. It's been going on too long, and major

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Speaker 1: escalation is not on the table. Nobody wants it. American

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Speaker 1: interest don't require it. So he's thinking nineteen sixty four,

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Speaker 1: probably he should have been thinking seventy three. You know,

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Speaker 1: how do you get out of this without it all

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Speaker 1: going south? Obama decides on a surge like the surge

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Speaker 1: in Iraq, except it's different in the sense that um,

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Speaker 1: it's he he says right away, it's not gonna last

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Speaker 1: as long. We're gonna get that. We're not going to

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Speaker 1: put as many troops in, but we're going to get

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Speaker 1: them in there quicker, and then we're going to get

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Speaker 1: them out. Oh and by the way, as he said

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Speaker 1: when he announced the policy in two thousand nine, we're

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Speaker 1: not really trying to win this war anymore. All we're

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Speaker 1: trying to do is degrade the Taliban. UM. So if

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Speaker 1: you want to go back to the Vietnam analogy. It's

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Speaker 1: three or seventy two or seventy three, when the United

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Speaker 1: States is trying to get out, and we don't want

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Speaker 1: the government to collapse right after we leave, because that

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Speaker 1: would be embarrassing to us. As a Kissinger and Nixon

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Speaker 1: said at the time, we just want a decent interval.

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Speaker 1: We know that the psyche and government is going to collapse,

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Speaker 1: we just don't want it to happen while we're still

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Speaker 1: in the watch. Pretty much so, but now Obama hoped

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Speaker 1: for a little better than that. But this point rings

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Speaker 1: true even today, which is, as soon as you make

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Speaker 1: it clear you are leaving, the external power makes clear

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Speaker 1: that it's leaving, the local actors know it, and you

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Speaker 1: lose all leverage. This was Trump's fatal this akee if

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Speaker 1: you will, when he announced to withdrawal from both Syria

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Speaker 1: and Afghanistan. Okay, we're leaving now, so why would any

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Speaker 1: of the other players pay attention to us. We've just

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Speaker 1: we've just given a we've just said we're on our

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Speaker 1: way out. You don't need to. And I think what

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Speaker 1: people around Trump have said now in talking about Afghanistan,

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Speaker 1: for example, is um we can't afford to pull out precipitously,

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Speaker 1: precisely because we will lose any leverage we have in

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Speaker 1: determining what happens politically and militarily after we go. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there seems something so vain about the notion of we

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Speaker 1: have to stay at war because otherwise our president will

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Speaker 1: be embarrassed. I mean, I understand there's national prestige on

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Speaker 1: the line, but that sounds like a horrible everything. I

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Speaker 1: think Obama said about launching an attack on Syria because

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Speaker 1: they think tanks would tell him, it's about credibility. You

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Speaker 1: have to you have to stand by your red wine.

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Speaker 1: And he said something like bombing a country for credibility

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Speaker 1: is like the dumbest reason to bomb people. Um, given

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Speaker 1: that a BOMBA had put his credibility on the line. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: when he when he essentially drew that line and said,

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Speaker 1: chemical gas is the chemical warfare is the thing that

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Speaker 1: I won't allow. You don't draw lines in the sand

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Speaker 1: unless you're really prepared to to live up to them,

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Speaker 1: and and boxing yourself in is is something that's going

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Speaker 1: to happen in wartime anyway. Don't don't enable it, don't

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Speaker 1: don't make it happen faster um the one so. The

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Speaker 1: one thing I would point out in the book that

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Speaker 1: that I stress in looking at some of the debates

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Speaker 1: about presidential war powers and how presidents ought to lead countries,

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Speaker 1: is that any president is going to lose his freedom

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Speaker 1: of action over the course of a war. The smartest

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Speaker 1: thing he can do, or she can do, assuming it's

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Speaker 1: a woman in the White House, is to try and

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Speaker 1: preserve that freedom of action for as long as possible,

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Speaker 1: so that you can change course in certain ways when

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Speaker 1: you need to, and are in generally speaking, the best

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Speaker 1: wartime president. I'll go back to Abraham Lincoln. Of the

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Speaker 1: presidents I looked at, the most effective ones are the

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Speaker 1: ones who managed to some extent to safeguard their freedom

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Speaker 1: of action for the longest possible time. It can't be

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Speaker 1: sustained indefinitely. The choices you make are gonna hamper A

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Speaker 1: hamper will hamper you, and even terrific I mean, very

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Speaker 1: capable wartime presidents like Franklin Roosevelt made lots of mistakes

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Speaker 1: that compromised their freedom of action as they went along.

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Speaker 1: I'm also interested in how I think it happened with

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Speaker 1: Obama and also with George W. Bush that they got stung.

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Speaker 1: And I believe it was in Cheney maybe Chinese memoir

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Speaker 1: where he talks about how he was pushing for military

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Speaker 1: action in Syria during the George W. Bush administration, and UM,

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Speaker 1: everyone's like, no, no, this is after Iraq. They're like, no, no,

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Speaker 1: We're not doing that again. And then UM, and what

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Speaker 1: we talked about with Obama being very resistant about Syria

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Speaker 1: and um shrewd we not escalating the situation and Ukraine. UM,

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Speaker 1: it seems like they maybe both of them, both of

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Speaker 1: these presidents got stung early on and they began to

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Speaker 1: express some of that skepticism we had talked about. I

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Speaker 1: think they both they both definitely got got stung. I

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Speaker 1: think some of them, some were were slower to come

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Speaker 1: to skepticism than others. Um. If I look at look

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Speaker 1: at Obama and Syria even now, and what what have

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Speaker 1: you learned from this this episode? There are no good choices?

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Speaker 1: What was Obama? What could Obama have done in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and thirteen that would have been the right choice

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Speaker 1: when the serious falling apart, the government is waging war

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Speaker 1: on its people. Um, the Soviets are beginning to poke

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Speaker 1: their nose. The Russians are beginning to poke their noses

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Speaker 1: in um. I guess I called him the Soviets because

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Speaker 1: they're back to being so much like the Soviets and

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Speaker 1: their behavior all habits die hard. The Russians are are interfering.

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Speaker 1: He's apparently used chemical weapons on his own people. So

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Speaker 1: what's the good choice here? Well, if you intervene, you're

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Speaker 1: in another war that is as unpromising as as Iraq was. Um.

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Speaker 1: You you have um isis on the ground, they're expanding

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Speaker 1: its its territory. You can you take them on as

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Speaker 1: another military challenge. But you've already committed US forces in

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Speaker 1: Afghanistan pretty much indefinitely hoping to get out of that.

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Speaker 1: You just got the United States out of Iraq. You

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Speaker 1: have a domestic agenda that you want to pursue. And

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Speaker 1: here's the Syrian conflict that's presenting itself with essentially no

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Speaker 1: allies or partners on the ground. Um. You know, the

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Speaker 1: feeble attempts by the CIA and others to create a

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Speaker 1: pro Western military was kind of it didn't work. It

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Speaker 1: hasn't worked, all right, it didn't work. Then no allies

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Speaker 1: on the ground. Um, So going in with no clear target, No,

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Speaker 1: no strategy. Essentially, you're gonna you're gonna replace um, the

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Speaker 1: Syrian regime with what. So there's no there's no good

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Speaker 1: choice there, but you stay out and what happens isis

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Speaker 1: expands UM, It sets up it's caliphate, the government alive

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Speaker 1: and serialize itself closely with Russia, Russian influences, influence grows.

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Speaker 1: Frankly in some situations, there are only bad choices from

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Speaker 1: American presidents. You try and figure out the least bad one.

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Speaker 1: I'm not convinced that Obama picked didn't pick the least

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Speaker 1: bad one. It may have been because we don't know

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Speaker 1: what would have happened. May have been the best one,

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Speaker 1: the best option, but the best of just a poor

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Speaker 1: set of choices, and that's sometimes what presidents deal with.

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Speaker 1: And in the end, I mean, we ended up going

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Speaker 1: with covert action, special operations and air strikes, which interestingly,

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Speaker 1: the American public seems very comfortable with. Yeah, almost no casualties. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it seems like it doesn't really bother Like, we don't

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Speaker 1: really regard that as war. Now there seems to be

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Speaker 1: there's very little out cry over the bombing in Yemen

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Speaker 1: right now, which is done with has been done with

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Speaker 1: American support. UM. There's no outcry over drone strikes. UM.

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Speaker 1: If light, the light footprint of of special forces of

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Speaker 1: various kinds, coupled with air strikes, coupled with training missions

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Speaker 1: of certain kinds UM seemed to be the the level

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Speaker 1: of imperial expansionist practice that the American public is perfectly happy,

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Speaker 1: too happy to live with. You know, when the British

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Speaker 1: Empire was at its peak, British units would be centered

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Speaker 1: all around the world and they fight various wars against

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Speaker 1: Afghans or Zulus or others, and the British public was

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Speaker 1: perfectly acceptable because it was a professional military. They were volunteers,

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Speaker 1: long service volunteers UM, no conscription UM. The soldiers were

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Speaker 1: considered to be on the fringe of British society. Nobody worried.

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Speaker 1: The only thing if people worried if there was an

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Speaker 1: embarrassing defeat, which the British had their share of, But

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Speaker 1: otherwise it didn't seem to particularly concern the public. UM.

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Speaker 1: And we've never had an imperial mindset like that, But

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Speaker 1: we've now come to something which I think is closer

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Speaker 1: to that than we've had in the past. The professional

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Speaker 1: soldiers who are willing to go out and be deployed

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Speaker 1: um in relatively small units with few casualties. This is

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Speaker 1: something that the American people seem prepared to live with.

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Speaker 1: It's getting very little discussion now in the political campaign

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Speaker 1: that we're about to start, is getting very little discussion,

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Speaker 1: UM in general, in public. And the only time you

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Speaker 1: get a discussion is if the president abruptly decides enough

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Speaker 1: of this and talks about leaving, and then people tell

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Speaker 1: him why you can't do that? Exactly That are once

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Speaker 1: in a while when um, you know, four soldiers get

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Speaker 1: killed by a suicide bomber in Syria, or you know,

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Speaker 1: four soldiers get killed in an ambush, suddenly everyone's like, whoa, whoa,

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Speaker 1: why do why do we have people that what's going

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Speaker 1: on here? You can't do that? You know? But that

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Speaker 1: the only time when things go really bad. But I mean,

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Speaker 1: seguing from that, I wanted to, of course, ask about

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00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 1: what's happened since you wrote this book with President Trump,

431
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,400
Speaker 1: because he ran on you know, his campaign was, as

432
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 1: we were talking about before we got started, we're gonna

433
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 1: be doing so much winning, We're gonna be sick of winning.

434
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 1: We're we're gonna get out of Syria. We're gonna get

435
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 1: out of all these protracted conflicts in the Middle East.

436
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:28,719
Speaker 1: And um, even somebody is bombastic as President Trump, who

437
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 1: doesn't really seem to care much what the political establishment

438
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,400
Speaker 1: thinks of him, has been unable to extricate us from

439
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 1: the global war on terror, even during the debates. Blaming

440
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 1: Jeb Bush his brother for nine eleven, it was pretty

441
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 1: outrage Just remember that there were a number of things

442
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,200
Speaker 1: to stand out in the cas we could, We could

443
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 1: spend a long time making a list he made. He

444
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,159
Speaker 1: came into that campaign and he knew who his public was.

445
00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 1: His and his public um generally UM, the populoust piece

446
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 1: of the public where people Midwestern rust belt, working class Americans,

447
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 1: predominantly white, UM dismissed by both party, having getting having

448
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 1: little voice in either party. And he understood that that's

449
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,639
Speaker 1: actually UM, the part of the an important part of

450
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: the population that sent its sons and daughters off to

451
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 1: these wars. The irony of it, as you've said before,

452
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 1: Jack too, is like, that's completely not who he is.

453
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 1: He is a New York elitist, of course, yeah, that

454
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,199
Speaker 1: but that mean a lot of there are a lot

455
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 1: of faux populists out there, So I'm not. The fact

456
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 1: is he had a he had a public, and that

457
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 1: public was frustrated, had many frustrations, and one of the

458
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 1: frustrations was an endless war that nobody could figure out

459
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 1: how to win. Um. So what do you say to

460
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 1: that public? Say, first, we're gonna win, You're gonna get

461
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,360
Speaker 1: tired of winning. Um, that's not actually a policy statement,

462
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 1: it says, it's actually an echo of frustration. That's all

463
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: it is. It's a frustration statement. Um. So it it

464
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,400
Speaker 1: It hit accord with the public. But then he also said,

465
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 1: we've been involved in this these long, pointless wars, trying

466
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: to do nation building in parts of the world where

467
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 1: nation building would be difficult or impossible. Enough of that, right,

468
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,159
Speaker 1: we're not We're doing He wasn't necessarily wrong on no, No,

469
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 1: he was right, and to his credit, because he hasn't

470
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:27,959
Speaker 1: delivered on a lot of his promises, this is one

471
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 1: he's kept so far. Okay, he has not put the

472
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 1: United States in the business of nation building. Um. He

473
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 1: has engaged in counter terrorism, and then he has and

474
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: so what he has been looking to do is to

475
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 1: find a way to eventually extricate the United states from

476
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,439
Speaker 1: these wars without a lot of good options. So if

477
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,160
Speaker 1: you think about what do you do when you're trying

478
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:55,880
Speaker 1: to get out of Syria or Iraq or Afghanistan. Um,

479
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 1: on the one hand, you've got people whispering in your ear,

480
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 1: we can't leave. Okay, that it would it would be

481
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 1: devastating to the region if we left, American credibility would

482
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,159
Speaker 1: be on the line. But as I pointed out, you

483
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: also you lose your leverage. Essentially, once the locals know

484
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,439
Speaker 1: you're leaving, they'll they're gonna they're gonna worry about their

485
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: own interests and and pay very little attention to you.

486
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 1: So you and so if you don't want to pull

487
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 1: out precipitously, what are you gonna do? Um? Well, if

488
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,640
Speaker 1: you you stay in, I mean, you continue to keep

489
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 1: this this loaf, this limited footprint UM with few casualties,

490
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 1: a policy that can be sustained largely indefinitely. And it

491
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: has one advantage that I can see, which it does

492
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: give you leverage when it comes to peace talks in

493
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,479
Speaker 1: the region. All Right, you're you're basically signaling we're here

494
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: to stay. We can we can keep doing this for

495
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 1: as long as we want to. We've got plenty of

496
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: money to do it. It doesn't cost us that much. Um.

497
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: The American public doesn't care about it, So it won't

498
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 1: do any good to try to target the American public.

499
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 1: If you're opposed to this. They're not paying attention. They've check,

500
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 1: they've checked out essentially, um, which from many, which in

501
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: some circumstances is a real is a real problem, but

502
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 1: in others it can be an advantage. So we can

503
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: keep doing this forever more or less. Um. So Trump

504
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: doesn't know how to get out, and and then at

505
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 1: the same time he's probably got people whispering in his ears.

506
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Venezuela, what do you make of the sort

507
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 1: of like pump fake that he did in regards to

508
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 1: Syria and making this unilateral decision. We're pulling out, we're

509
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 1: getting out and then within what was it, like three

510
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: or four weeks, and we're gonna stay And then and

511
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,719
Speaker 1: then that CBS interview, we're gonna stay in Iraq. We're

512
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: gonna stay in Syria to watch iran um. That's an

513
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 1: interesting twist about how you're gonna watch iran um. But

514
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: leave that be that as it may. So presidents have

515
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: processes or they don't actually. Um, Most presidents have processes,

516
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 1: and the processes had their good side, which is that

517
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 1: they if they work well, they give you a pretty

518
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: thorough opportunity to look at the advantages and the cost

519
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: of any course of action. Um. You know what, if

520
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 1: you have a serious debate about escalating in Vietnam and

521
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: your Joint chiefs of Staff tell you you should do

522
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 1: it this way and you should call up the reserves,

523
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 1: at least you know what the military thinks about this,

524
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 1: and your political people are telling you another thing, and

525
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 1: you consorted all out. There's a process there. Barack Obama

526
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: and considering his options in Afghanistan has a very good

527
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: process as these things go. For debating the alternatives. Do

528
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: you really want to send in eighty thousand troops? Do

529
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: you want to send in thirty or forty? Do you

530
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: want Joe Biden's counter terrorism? The arguments are hashed out

531
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: and they're considered seriously by people with backgrounds in the field. Um,

532
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: you may get a lot of conventional wisdom, but you

533
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 1: probably get some different conventional wisdom, and at least you've

534
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 1: given it some thought. Um. And I think tipically the

535
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: result I'm not saying the rules are necessarily good, but

536
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: at least you've heard from all of the players. So

537
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: far as I can tell, Trump has no process. I

538
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,959
Speaker 1: don't know what I mean. People have have have implied

539
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 1: that Putin suggested to him that he get out of Syria.

540
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: I have no idea whether that's true, but there was

541
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 1: everyone seems to have been caught by surprise. When everybody's

542
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: caught by surprise, you know, there's no process. He just

543
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: wakes up in the morning. It's like, you know what,

544
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: pretty much, and so then the process comes in after

545
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 1: the fact. Okay, now I've said we're leaving, and now

546
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: everybody's going to tell me why we can't do that,

547
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: and I'm going to have to find a way to

548
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 1: back down from what I said. Uh, and maybe it's

549
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: going to be that I'll say, we're staying in Syria

550
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: because that's how we're going to keep Iran on its toes.

551
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 1: And I'll stay in Afghanistan because I know now there

552
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,719
Speaker 1: are some negotiations that are going on between the government

553
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: and the Taliban and other parties, and we don't want

554
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 1: to alter. We don't want to make a statement there

555
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: with leaving because we can't be sure that we'll be

556
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: able to protect um Afghanistan from having the Taliban come

557
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 1: back into power and it becoming a haven for terrorists. Again,

558
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 1: kind of the basic things you would you would think

559
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 1: a president would realize before he makes the announcement, But

560
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: better that he better that he stepped back and reconsider

561
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: his position than out of some stubbornness or rigidity say no,

562
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 1: I've said my position and we're going to stick to it. Well,

563
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: some Trump supporters would make the point that or they

564
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 1: would feel that these sorts of things that he says

565
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: are strategic gambits, that it's a sort of strategem that

566
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: he's throwing out this bold move and then from their

567
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: negotiating somewhere down to a middle position. I suppose eventually

568
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 1: we'll have some evidence from inside the administration about what

569
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: thought went on. But I don't see any of that.

570
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: I think I don't see in Trump's general actions. I

571
00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: don't see a grand strategic vision that he's pursuing it

572
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 1: and certainly not following it through systematically down to the

573
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 1: level of a decision in Afghanistan. Then, I think the

574
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: next thing I wanted to ask you about that we

575
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: mentioned briefly in you had said that one thing Trump

576
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: has followed through on is not getting us involved in

577
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 1: more conflicts than we're already in. Um. But something I've

578
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 1: been looking at recently is Iran, And of course he's

579
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: been making some pretty uh holacious statements about Iran sometimes

580
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: on social media. Is this uh more bluff and bluster

581
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: or is it is there something is he signaling something

582
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: we should be taking more seriously? Well, let's take let's

583
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 1: go back in history to a to a thinker um

584
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 1: whose words still resonate today, and that's Machiavelli and Machiavelli's

585
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 1: comment in The Prince to the effect that leaders don't change.

586
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: They don't change because they feel that would put them

587
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 1: in the position that they're in of leadership. What worked

588
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 1: to get to that point will continue to work. Right.

589
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 1: So if we look at Donald Trump, UM, we might say, well,

590
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 1: look at North Korea. His initial reaction, his initial post

591
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 1: to North Korea was a threatening one. UM. You know,

592
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,720
Speaker 1: he fire and fury like the world has never seen,

593
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 1: and you know, pushing us towards the brink of war

594
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,760
Speaker 1: with North Korea to the point that it became quite scary,

595
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,839
Speaker 1: before he backed down to some extent and he had

596
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: his conversation with the head of North Korea, the first

597
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: conversation in which he announced that like Neville Chamberla and

598
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 1: he had a chief piece for our time, complete denuclearization.

599
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 1: Well that didn't happen. Um, so we're but we're But

600
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 1: basically this notion of the possibility exists that he sees

601
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 1: the bluster and the threat as a prelude to negotiation

602
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 1: and softens up the other side because the other side

603
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: becomes intimidated to some exento, fearful that this guy is

604
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 1: just crazy enough to do it. Um. You may remember

605
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 1: there was a crazy Nixon theory in Vietnam that the

606
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 1: crazy Nixon idea was that Nixon would be threatening to

607
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,359
Speaker 1: unleash such violence on the North Vietnamese that they would

608
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 1: be drawn back to the negotiating table. Um. And there

609
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 1: are a couple of episodes in the Vietnam period that

610
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 1: suggests that may that may have been the way Nixon

611
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:25,760
Speaker 1: was thinking. Um. The bombing, the secret bombing of Cambodia,

612
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 1: for example, he knew he couldn't bomb North Vietnam, but

613
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,359
Speaker 1: he wanted to show him meant business, so he had

614
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,919
Speaker 1: be fifty twos dropping bombs on the jungles of Cambodia. Um.

615
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 1: Why why he thought that that that would work better

616
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: than the bombing of North Vietnam had worked under Johnson

617
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 1: was never really clear. But sometimes presidents you think that

618
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,839
Speaker 1: gestures like that matter. So Trump may have a kind

619
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 1: of you know, the crazy Trump thesis would be that

620
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 1: I'll act date reckless, I'll bring us to the precipice,

621
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: and then I'll back down, and the other side, having

622
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 1: seen that, I'm I mean business, will be serious of

623
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 1: negotiating with me. Um. It hasn't worked with North Korea

624
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 1: particularly well so far. I mean there's a real danger

625
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 1: there too, especially when you're playing with words, exchanging barbs

626
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: with another nuclear power. Oh, absolutely, or with any power.

627
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: I think there's is a real danger because signaling in

628
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,800
Speaker 1: wartime and more potential war situations is always a difficult

629
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: and dangerous activity to get to get in. You are

630
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: trying to send a message. You know what message you

631
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: are trying to send, but you don't know what the

632
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 1: other side is receiving. And especially in the case of dictatorships,

633
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 1: UM information passes badly. UM up and down the chain.

634
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,359
Speaker 1: It doesn't, it doesn't necessarily pass up and down very well.

635
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 1: In our society we're relatively open, but in dictatorships it

636
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 1: it really doesn't move up and down well. And so

637
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,839
Speaker 1: whether the other side, whether you understand what the other

638
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 1: side is thinking, it's very much open to question, and

639
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: it's a very risky proposition, very risky to assume that

640
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: the other side will respond the way you think they

641
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 1: will respond. UM. And this was there's been a problem,

642
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,879
Speaker 1: was a problem for example, in Vietnam during the Vietnam War,

643
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,280
Speaker 1: when we were bombing North Vietnam in n and sixty

644
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: six and sixty seven, there would be these bombing pauses UM.

645
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 1: And the bombing pauses were generally intended by the United

646
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,799
Speaker 1: States as an overture in the North Vietnamese to come

647
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,319
Speaker 1: to the peace table, to take you know, to think

648
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 1: again about their position and our position. UM. But there

649
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 1: was no direct communications, so the messages were going through intermediaries,

650
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,800
Speaker 1: and they often were garbled, and sometimes they traveled very slowly.

651
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 1: So there would be bombing halts and the United States

652
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,399
Speaker 1: would try to send a message and then it would

653
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 1: resume bombing before the North Vietnamese haid have ever had

654
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,839
Speaker 1: a chance to receive the message, much less respond, So

655
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 1: they would think well, they're acting in bad faith. They

656
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 1: know they talk about a bombing hope with their bombing us. Again,

657
00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: all these signaling activities are have risks with them. And

658
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 1: if you think you're communicating something to terran by threatening them,

659
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 1: um or to Maduro in Venezuela by threatening him, you

660
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 1: better you can't know that they are hearing the message

661
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 1: the same way you think they should be hearing that message.

662
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,359
Speaker 1: Saddam Hussein is a fascinating case. If you look at

663
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,359
Speaker 1: the lead up to the wars, he didn't believe we

664
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 1: were coming. Well, you remember there was all the discussion

665
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 1: of weapons of mass destruction, right, and we wanted to

666
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 1: have proof there were no weapons of mass destruction, that

667
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 1: he had destroyed all of his w m D s

668
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 1: um and we thought there's no way he would dare

669
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:39,839
Speaker 1: not to give us the right to do these inspections

670
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,399
Speaker 1: because we're his most dangerous enemy. Well it turns out

671
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: that in Saddam Hussein's eyes, we weren't the most dangerous enemy.

672
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 1: His own people, his own generals, were the most dangerous enemy,

673
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 1: and his one trump card against them was their fear

674
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 1: that he still had weapons of mass destruction. So he

675
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 1: actually wanted them to be. He wanted to create the

676
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 1: uncertainty for his own people or for the Iranians next

677
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 1: door that he still had chemical and biological weapons, so

678
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 1: that they wouldn't. He knew his his conventional military had

679
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 1: been drastically weakened and they couldn't really and and was

680
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 1: incapable of defending him against the serious adversary. But if

681
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 1: there were chemical weapons, that was a whole different story.

682
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 1: So his understanding of who his enemies were was completely

683
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 1: different from what the Bush administration thought. Um this, the

684
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 1: lack of communication, the misunderstandings, had a lot to do

685
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 1: with the games that were played up to the beginning

686
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 1: of that of the of the war in iraq Um

687
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: and we have to be wary of this happening in

688
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 1: any other potential conflict situation. There's a tremendous possibility of

689
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 1: miscommunication and misunderstanding. Another one of President Trump's campaign promises,

690
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 1: which you know he followed through on, was pulling us

691
00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: out of their irandeal, which seems counterintuitive. You know, that

692
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 1: was a deal that curtailed Iran's progress towards a nuclear weapon.

693
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 1: And we can argue the effectiveness of it, but surely

694
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 1: it's better to have something in place than have nothing

695
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: in place, nothing constraining them. Why do you think Trump

696
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 1: went through with this and what do you think he

697
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:21,360
Speaker 1: was trying to signal with it? I'm not sure. I

698
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 1: like you, I read the press. Um. I think Trump

699
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,320
Speaker 1: fancies himself and we all know this, as the world's

700
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 1: greatest deal maker. Um, he can make a better deal

701
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 1: than anyone else can. Whether it's true or not, it's

702
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 1: not the question. He thinks of himself that way. He

703
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 1: attacked Obama's Iran deal. He thought it was a terrible deal. Um.

704
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: He if you look at the kinds of deal, he

705
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 1: doesn't like halfway measures, Okay. He he wants big solutions.

706
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 1: So his big solution he wants to assure that Iran

707
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 1: cannot ever get a nuclear weapon. He wants to completely

708
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 1: denuclearize North Korea. He wants, he wants the big thing.

709
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 1: If it's not the big deal, it's not the whole enchilada,

710
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 1: it's not worth it. In his eyes. He thinks or

711
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 1: he thinks he can get a better deal, and so

712
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 1: he's prepared to rip up the paper in the pursuit

713
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,319
Speaker 1: of a better deal. Whether he can get one or not,

714
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,399
Speaker 1: time would tell, But in general, as you point out,

715
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 1: there's a risk you've you've thrown away the deal that

716
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: you had um and that you had made in good faith.

717
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,880
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter whether Congress signs the treaty or not

718
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 1: as far as another country is concerned. If a president

719
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 1: of the United States puts his name on the dotted line,

720
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 1: that's the United States speaking. So the Iranians expect the

721
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: deal to be honored, the Europeans expect the deal to

722
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,760
Speaker 1: be honored. And now we're in a weaker position because

723
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 1: the Europeans have lifted many of their sanctions. Other countries

724
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 1: are prepared to deal with Iran, so our leverage is

725
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:55,319
Speaker 1: largely gone from that. But from what I can see

726
00:41:55,320 --> 00:42:00,479
Speaker 1: so far, I don't see Donald Trump inclined to bring

727
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:05,359
Speaker 1: the United States into a military conflict. Um It's it's

728
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:09,320
Speaker 1: not his area of expertise. He has seen the results

729
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 1: go bad. Whatever Donald Trump is, he is not a

730
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 1: stupid man um And he is, although he's not a

731
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 1: deep student of history to say the least, he knows

732
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 1: what the public reaction was to the Iraq War, and

733
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 1: he doesn't want his legacy to be another war like

734
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: the Iraq War, which utterly destroyed the Bush forty three presidency.

735
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 1: He's not he's not interested in that. So for him,

736
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 1: it's about the bluster, the talk, the grand bargain at

737
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 1: the end that that seals his place in history and

738
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 1: wins him the Nobel Prize UM, and that's what he

739
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 1: hopes to come away from these situations with. I think,

740
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:55,320
Speaker 1: at least based on the North Korea model, is there

741
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 1: a real problem with um? Because you studied these presidencies,

742
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 1: you know, in depth, it strikes me that there must

743
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 1: be a problem that we work in these four year

744
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 1: political cycles maybe eight years, you know. Um, we make deals,

745
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,320
Speaker 1: we pull out of them, we top all these regimes,

746
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 1: and then the next president comes in and almost wants

747
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,360
Speaker 1: to act like none of that happened. Um. You know,

748
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 1: why would a why would a regime de nuclear rise

749
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 1: when we've been in the business of regime change. I

750
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 1: mean that is like the one hedge, like, you know,

751
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 1: the United States probably isn't gonna, you know, invade your

752
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 1: country if you have nuclear weapons. This the lesson that

753
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 1: the North Koreans took from Libya. Libya was exactly that

754
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 1: if if Kadafi had had nuclear weapons, he'd still be

755
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:47,879
Speaker 1: in power. There's no way we're going to allow ourselves

756
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 1: to be to be put in the position where external

757
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 1: country can come in join with our own people who

758
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 1: we don't trust, UH and bomb us and destroy our

759
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 1: own military. Um and I and you know, and we

760
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 1: end up as the leaders of this country being dragged

761
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 1: by the people and they did, and being beaten to death.

762
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 1: That's not what the North Koreans want. UM. What Trump

763
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 1: tried to do in the most recent negotiation in Hanoi,

764
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 1: which was an interesting location. Um, yeah, he did. He

765
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,840
Speaker 1: did just walk out of that. That is correct, um.

766
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 1: And it'll be a while before we fully understand why

767
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 1: that is said literally today's headline. But what he tried

768
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 1: to do was to suggest that Vietnam was an alternative

769
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 1: model for the North Koreans. UM. And here's the argument

770
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 1: the United States. You know, a generation to call for

771
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:43,239
Speaker 1: the war in Korea, A little another generation entered for

772
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: the war in Vietnam. We were adversaries. Um. In each case,

773
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: fifty Americans give their lives in the end. Um, the

774
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 1: United States turns out to be able to be a friend,

775
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,879
Speaker 1: a warm friend of the Vietnamese, open up strong relate

776
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 1: ships with Vietnam. Becomes Vietnam's main export recipient. UH, and

777
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 1: our relations are so strong with the Vietnamese that they

778
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 1: now regard us as one of the as an ally

779
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 1: against Chinese domination. UM. So there's that path um that

780
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 1: that we might suggest for the North Koreans, or there's

781
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: the one of continuing belligerents, poverty, etcetera. Can you persuade

782
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 1: the North Koreans that there is a Vietnam like path

783
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 1: toation too well, to reunification, yes, but also to economic development,

784
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 1: prosperity and peace. And it's not clear that that that

785
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 1: that you can. But I think it was an interesting

786
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 1: gambit on Trump's part. I don't know whether. I don't

787
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:50,879
Speaker 1: know how much background there was to this. I don't

788
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,320
Speaker 1: how much build up there was. And that's one of

789
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 1: the things about trumping Trump's diplomacy that's peculiar, is it.

790
00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 1: Usually you have summit meetings after the agreement has been made.

791
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 1: The experts write the agreements, they read the fine print,

792
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,799
Speaker 1: they hassle about the details, and then the leaders get

793
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 1: together and celebrate when when the deed is done. Trump's

794
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:15,320
Speaker 1: having has a different model of how to negotiate UM.

795
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 1: It initially showed promise in his first meeting with the

796
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 1: North Koreans, and now it seems to be turning out

797
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 1: the case that the North Koreans came away with a

798
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 1: very different understanding of that meeting. I have no intention

799
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,839
Speaker 1: of actually denuclearizing the way Trump wants them to. And

800
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 1: do you think that the more we antagonize the Iranians

801
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 1: the way we have, does that incentivize them to pursue

802
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:41,280
Speaker 1: weapons of mass destruction as their their hedge against potential

803
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 1: American aggression. I mean, I know right now they're not.

804
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: It appears that's what Gina haspell and uh Dan coates

805
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 1: the d N I testified to just what last month. UM,

806
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 1: the Iranians would like to have peaceful relationships relations with

807
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 1: the United States. UM. They'd like to be recognized as

808
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 1: an influential player in the regional player and respected as that. UM.

809
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 1: There are lots of things that they want from the

810
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 1: United States that they think that they can get from

811
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 1: the United States. And they were willing to sign the

812
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 1: deal in the first place because it was in their

813
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 1: interest to do so. UM. They're still respecting it by

814
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 1: all appearances, because they hope that the United States in

815
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 1: a sense comes around. UM. In, you know, to a

816
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 1: more sensible position there. And maybe they could be countries.

817
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 1: Countries you mentioned the four year cycle. Other countries weighed

818
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,759
Speaker 1: out our election cycle. China wait a hundred years. They

819
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 1: don't care. They can wait for another president. Um, they

820
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: waited for I mean the in the Vietnam War. The

821
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 1: Saigon government decided to outweit Lyndon Johnson when his term

822
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:52,799
Speaker 1: was ending, expecting that Richard Nixon would give them a

823
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:56,279
Speaker 1: better deal. And that's one of the reasons. And and

824
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 1: and that's what Henry Kissinger essentially signal to them. They

825
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:02,839
Speaker 1: get a better deal. So they scuttled a peace deal

826
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 1: that was on the table in two Then it turned

827
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 1: out they shortly they learned soon thereafter that Nixon also

828
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 1: had every intention of withdrawing from Vietnam. Um. So they gained.

829
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 1: They didn't gain very much except a little time by

830
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 1: doing that. So the Iranians could be waiting for another president. Um.

831
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 1: You know, the North Koreans may decide to wait for

832
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:25,280
Speaker 1: another president. Yes, everybody can. Our electoral cycle is regular,

833
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 1: and you hope for the hope for the best. Um.

834
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:32,359
Speaker 1: I will say that if you let's take the first

835
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 1: case in the book, Abraham Lincoln um the Confederacy in

836
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 1: eighteen sixty four. Its strategy was playing for time so

837
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 1: the northern public would get frustrated and elect a Democrat,

838
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 1: George McClellan, who announced he would make peace with the

839
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 1: South essentially as quickly as possible, recognizing the Confederacy. So

840
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 1: if you're the South in eighteen sixty four and you're

841
00:48:54,960 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 1: looking at Lincoln's reelection, you know that delivering um defeats

842
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 1: to the Union Army and essentially at least making making

843
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:05,840
Speaker 1: it seem to the Northern public that no progress was

844
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 1: being made in the war after three plus years of

845
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: fighting and the heaviest casualties of any American war in history.

846
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 1: That would lead the Northern public to decide they wanted

847
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 1: a peace candidate. And that's what the South was playing

848
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,800
Speaker 1: for in eighteen sixty four. So with with rare exception

849
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 1: um World War Two, it wouldn't make a difference. In

850
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 1: nineteen forty four, the Allies were committed to unconditional surrender

851
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:31,400
Speaker 1: of the war was going to play out that way.

852
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 1: But in other cases, in nineteen seventy two of Vietnam

853
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:38,879
Speaker 1: um the American public is fair game when it comes

854
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: to other countries looking at how to fight their wars.

855
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:45,719
Speaker 1: Um I mentioned that there was a a book was

856
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 1: written about fifteen years ago, maybe not quite that long ago,

857
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 1: by Rupert Smith, the British general, called War among the

858
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 1: People Bore Amongst the People, and he argues this is

859
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 1: about insurgencies and how basically towards today are not fought

860
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 1: by recognized armies, but rather by irregular forces asymmetrical conflicts.

861
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 1: See these irregular forces hiding among the people. They're hard

862
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:11,239
Speaker 1: to find, they're hard to separate. When you attack them,

863
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 1: you cause large, large civilian casualties. Um. When they suffered defeats,

864
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 1: they simply blend back into It. Was this the book

865
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:20,920
Speaker 1: that said when a strong power fights a weaker power,

866
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: they end up becoming weaker themselves. A number of books

867
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:26,360
Speaker 1: have said that point. Smith's point is that the character

868
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 1: of war changes. But we should also recognize when we

869
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 1: talk about war among the people, that the people include

870
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:34,760
Speaker 1: the people of the United States. Although they're not directly

871
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:37,759
Speaker 1: in the line of fire, they're very much a political

872
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:42,720
Speaker 1: target UM that the enemy understands and tries to influence.

873
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:47,439
Speaker 1: The North Vietnamese did this um intentionally during the Vietnamal views. Yeah,

874
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 1: but well even before that, they they recognize that the

875
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 1: American people could be made, could become war weary in

876
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 1: short order. Um, this is not why they launched the

877
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:01,320
Speaker 1: Tet offensive for them. Actually a side benefit of the

878
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 1: Tet Offensive. They lose militarily, they gained politically. But they

879
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:08,799
Speaker 1: realize that the American public can be made, can get

880
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 1: war weary, and if they dragged the conflict out, eventually

881
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 1: the American public will turn its back on the war.

882
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 1: And it turned out that that Vietnamization, the process of

883
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 1: turning the war over to the South Vietnamese and bringing

884
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:26,360
Speaker 1: American troops home, had the unintended effect of encouraging the

885
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 1: American people to check out on the war so that

886
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 1: it no longer mattered to them. You end the draft,

887
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 1: you bring the troops home. It's not unlike the conflicts

888
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 1: you describe. Now, we're still there training the Vietnamese, We're

889
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 1: still their bonds. No price for the public. The casualties

890
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:43,279
Speaker 1: are going down. The public is losing interest. But as

891
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 1: its public loses interest, it also stops caring about the outcome.

892
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 1: So the fact that ultimately the South Vietnamese government will

893
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:52,759
Speaker 1: collapse means nothing to the American people, they've they've checked out.

894
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:56,400
Speaker 1: And so it is in Iraq. You know, a generation

895
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:58,840
Speaker 1: later in two by two thousand and eight, the American

896
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 1: people have checked out on the Iraq War. Do they

897
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 1: care what happens in Iraq afterwards? No, they really don't.

898
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 1: Get the troops home, the casualties go down. It's probably

899
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 1: largely true in Afghanistan today. The American public doesn't care

900
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:16,279
Speaker 1: after a certain point that. In the case of Afghanistan,

901
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 1: there's an advantage in that because the administration can continue

902
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 1: doing what it's doing without much public reaction to it.

903
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:24,719
Speaker 1: But in other cases, when the American public checks out,

904
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:27,799
Speaker 1: the president is left with no good argument to make

905
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:30,160
Speaker 1: about why this matters to the United States. What's the

906
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:33,799
Speaker 1: American interest here? Um, Like pulling us out of the

907
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 1: Trans Pacific Partnership and things like this. I feel like

908
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:40,440
Speaker 1: the American public just doesn't necessarily engage wholesale, and so

909
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 1: certainly not was something like the Trans Pacific Partnership, because

910
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 1: very few people know what it is or what it

911
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:47,439
Speaker 1: would do. Um. The war, at least at one point

912
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: was was graphic, um and important, and presidents what they

913
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 1: also find is that their their words matter less as

914
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 1: time goes on, they've inflated the significance of the conflict

915
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 1: um in part because they have to justify going to war.

916
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:06,839
Speaker 1: But once they inflate the significance of the conflict, it's

917
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:09,279
Speaker 1: hard for them to back down. And usually it's it

918
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 1: takes another president to get us out of that conflict.

919
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:14,280
Speaker 1: George W. Bush wasn't going to get us out of Iraq.

920
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 1: His successor would. George W. Bush wasn't gonna get us

921
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 1: out of Afghanistan. Obama didn get us out of the Afghanistan.

922
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:25,319
Speaker 1: His successor may um. So in these conflicts, these long

923
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:28,319
Speaker 1: conflicts that go on, Lyndon Johnson didn't get us out

924
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 1: of Vietnam. Richard Nixon did. The first the president who

925
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:33,800
Speaker 1: launches the war and inflates its importance at the beginning

926
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 1: into something like an existential conflict. The survival of the

927
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:41,320
Speaker 1: United States is at stake here, by whatever tenuous logic

928
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 1: it is. Okay, it's it's easy in the case of

929
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 1: World War Two, and relatively easy in the case of

930
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 1: the Civil War to say the survival of the United

931
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 1: States is at stake. What do you do when it isn't? Though, Raddy,

932
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 1: I mean the survival of the United States is not

933
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 1: at stake when Woodrow Wilson gets us into World War One. Um,

934
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 1: which makes it really hard for it Woodrow Wilson to

935
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:03,919
Speaker 1: make the case to get the United States into World

936
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 1: War one. The survival of the United States is not

937
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:10,800
Speaker 1: at stake. In Vietnam, you have these long, attenuated arguments

938
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 1: about the dominoes right about you know how you know,

939
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:16,399
Speaker 1: then the next week they're in Australia and the week

940
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 1: after that in San Francisco or you know, um, it's silly,

941
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:23,480
Speaker 1: you know, images the imagery still stays with us. And

942
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 1: George W. Bush I remember Tony Blair going on television

943
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:28,840
Speaker 1: and talking about how our RAQ was going to launch

944
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:31,400
Speaker 1: like a chemical weapons attack on London. What could happen

945
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:34,920
Speaker 1: in hours? Like what well and and Condoleeza Rice. Right,

946
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 1: we don't want the you know, the yellow cake to

947
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 1: become a mushroom cloud, you know, the inflated you know,

948
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 1: threat of the nuclear weapons. But to make the case

949
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:49,600
Speaker 1: for the sacrifice of going to war, you something you

950
00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:51,920
Speaker 1: do inflate it, right, You've got to mobilize those like

951
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:57,800
Speaker 1: jingoistic nationalistic sentiments and then the letdown when you're unsuccessful

952
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 1: and the dawn and gradual realization that you know, well,

953
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:05,440
Speaker 1: you get right down to it, there weren't any w

954
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:07,920
Speaker 1: m d s in a in a rock. They went

955
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:12,239
Speaker 1: looking for them, and they couldn't find them. Although curiously,

956
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,359
Speaker 1: public opinion polls showed about two years after the war

957
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:18,279
Speaker 1: that there was a partisan split over whether or not

958
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:20,000
Speaker 1: there had been w m d s. I think there

959
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 1: still are that that could very well be. I haven't

960
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:25,800
Speaker 1: looked in any recent surveys, but Republicans became more convinced

961
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:27,879
Speaker 1: that there had been w m d s and Democrats

962
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:30,960
Speaker 1: became less convinced, which probably says more about the way

963
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 1: our partisan mind have its work than anything else. We

964
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:36,760
Speaker 1: have taken up almost an hour of your time already,

965
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 1: But I guess maybe the way to wrap this up

966
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:41,520
Speaker 1: unless you have any you know, concluding remarks or anything

967
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:43,800
Speaker 1: else about the book you wanted to talk about, I

968
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:47,279
Speaker 1: did want to ask you, do you see um a

969
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:51,240
Speaker 1: potential roadmap or a potential way forward that the United

970
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 1: States could begin to extricate itself from these many many

971
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:57,839
Speaker 1: different conflicts were in Is it even possible or if

972
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:00,279
Speaker 1: we just created this war machine, the the you know,

973
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:03,760
Speaker 1: so called military industrial complex, we can't even back away

974
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 1: from it because our our culture is predicated upon it.

975
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 1: You have to rely essentially on the good judgment and

976
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:15,400
Speaker 1: self restraint of the President of the United So we're

977
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:23,040
Speaker 1: in trouble especially currently, well are we? Yes, yes and no.

978
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:27,800
Speaker 1: I mean when I say that is because the more power,

979
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:32,600
Speaker 1: the military capacity is at every president's disposal. And that's

980
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:36,440
Speaker 1: the big change between the pre modern ear before World

981
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 1: War Two and the present time. Because before World War Two,

982
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 1: you didn't have a military basically you could deploy immediately

983
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:46,480
Speaker 1: there was any significance. You have to create armies when

984
00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:49,799
Speaker 1: wars were about to happen. Um. Lincoln had to build

985
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 1: an army from nothing in the Civil War. It changes

986
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:56,360
Speaker 1: in the late nineteenth century, beginning with the creation of

987
00:56:56,360 --> 00:56:59,360
Speaker 1: a modern United States Navy, which projects us as a

988
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 1: world power, and that means we're going to be more

989
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:03,239
Speaker 1: entangled in different parts of the world. We start to

990
00:57:03,239 --> 00:57:05,879
Speaker 1: getting involved in colonialism and things. And then after World

991
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 1: War two. Sorry, after World War Two, the United States

992
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:13,280
Speaker 1: doesn't fully demobilize. Um. We maintain a large standing military

993
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 1: on a on a permanent basis. Um. We we do

994
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:19,800
Speaker 1: some demobilization after World War Two, but UM, it's limited

995
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:22,120
Speaker 1: and very little after the Korean War. And so now

996
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 1: we have a military that spends somewhere around of all

997
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:31,919
Speaker 1: the world's total expenditures on military forces. UM. So it's there,

998
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:35,280
Speaker 1: it's not it's not going where anywhere where a superpower

999
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:38,280
Speaker 1: we may. We're not quite the hegemonic power we were

1000
00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 1: after the Soviet Union collapsed. Um. But a unit and

1001
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:45,320
Speaker 1: essentially a superpower, but that has that kind of hegemony

1002
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 1: and wants to preserve it. Sees any disruption in the

1003
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:54,920
Speaker 1: global order as a threat, no matter how far away

1004
00:57:54,960 --> 00:58:00,600
Speaker 1: it is, whether it's Venezuela or it's Afghanistan, you name it.

1005
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:03,480
Speaker 1: Any potential, any war could potentially threaten that. So we

1006
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:06,919
Speaker 1: are on our on our guard all the time, all

1007
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:11,880
Speaker 1: the time with the military force, with the sense that

1008
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:15,720
Speaker 1: our interests are at stake in any conflict around the world.

1009
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:20,000
Speaker 1: Potentially leads us to the situation where we would consider

1010
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:23,800
Speaker 1: using force nowadays in time in ways that we never

1011
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 1: would have before World War Two. So what stops you

1012
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:31,760
Speaker 1: it is the president's essentially restraint, whether he's advised that

1013
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:35,800
Speaker 1: way or whether he's inherently skeptical of military involvement, which

1014
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 1: is what Obama was you're not going to Only those

1015
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:44,280
Speaker 1: presidents who are aware of the risks will be will

1016
00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:47,200
Speaker 1: will be careful. I think about getting us into into

1017
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:50,600
Speaker 1: military conflicts, and I don't think in the in the

1018
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 1: wars we've been fighting, there has been nearly enough attention

1019
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:57,960
Speaker 1: to the risks that we take when we go into war. Um,

1020
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:00,640
Speaker 1: we know that we can win the conventional phase. We

1021
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:02,600
Speaker 1: know there aren't gonna and that's not going to take

1022
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 1: very long because no conventional force that we're potentially confronting

1023
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 1: can compete with the conventional force of the United States.

1024
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:15,720
Speaker 1: So the early victory is right there. Um. Donald Rumsfeld

1025
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:19,840
Speaker 1: was in one sense that UM smart about this because

1026
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:25,520
Speaker 1: his view was we do kinetic Warfarewell, okay, that's what

1027
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:29,320
Speaker 1: we should be doing. The rest we should outsource nation building,

1028
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:34,360
Speaker 1: leave it to the French or the Brits, but we

1029
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 1: should not do nation But now, of course, there's no

1030
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:39,440
Speaker 1: way you can put that into practice and national style.

1031
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:43,520
Speaker 1: And Rumsfeld was a terrible Secretary of Defense because he

1032
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:46,800
Speaker 1: does win the kinetic phase of the war in Iraq

1033
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:49,840
Speaker 1: and has no clue what to do afterward. He want afterwards,

1034
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:51,560
Speaker 1: he wants to control it, but he doesn't know what

1035
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:55,480
Speaker 1: to do with it, So the temptation to use force

1036
00:59:56,000 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 1: will be there because we do have overwhelming force. Getting

1037
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:02,920
Speaker 1: in is easy. Presidents have lots of things they can

1038
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:05,000
Speaker 1: do to get us into war and lots of ways

1039
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:06,960
Speaker 1: they can fight those choose to fight those wars in

1040
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:11,000
Speaker 1: the early stage. That's not the problem. Okay, it's getting

1041
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:15,240
Speaker 1: out and actually accomplishing what you want. That's that's the key.

1042
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:17,800
Speaker 1: That's the key question, and you've got to be realistic

1043
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:20,800
Speaker 1: about it. I and others have written about this. Essentially,

1044
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:23,240
Speaker 1: before you go into a war, you ought to be

1045
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:26,680
Speaker 1: thinking about what the political accomplished goal is, what's the

1046
01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:29,440
Speaker 1: what's the peace building part of it? What do you

1047
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:31,080
Speaker 1: want to accomplish at the end, And then you have

1048
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:34,360
Speaker 1: to work your way backwards from that to the point

1049
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 1: where you're going to get into the war, and and

1050
01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:38,880
Speaker 1: think about each step as you work your way backwards

1051
01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:42,360
Speaker 1: in planning the kind of military, kind of military operation

1052
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:44,360
Speaker 1: you want to have, or whether it's smart to do

1053
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:47,160
Speaker 1: it at all. And that's something that we have done

1054
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:51,560
Speaker 1: really poorly, and presidents have done poorly. They're very they're

1055
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:54,720
Speaker 1: capable of thinking about the first step, they're capable of

1056
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:57,920
Speaker 1: imagining a big long term goal in part to justify

1057
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:01,480
Speaker 1: going to war. But they're not capable connecting the two ends.

1058
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:03,960
Speaker 1: None of them has been very good at connecting the

1059
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:08,280
Speaker 1: two ends UM. And until the President does that, there's

1060
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:10,919
Speaker 1: a real risk of getting into a conflict that leads

1061
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:15,280
Speaker 1: to nowhere UM and put and leaves us worse off

1062
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:19,360
Speaker 1: than when we went in. I mean, I remember when

1063
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:22,920
Speaker 1: we interviewed uh Mark Boyatt, who's a Special Forces colonel,

1064
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:25,640
Speaker 1: and he who's I was asking him about how unpopular

1065
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:29,240
Speaker 1: then the notion of nation building is with many Americans,

1066
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:30,960
Speaker 1: and he's like, well, okay, then we're going to be

1067
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:33,440
Speaker 1: there forever. Like you just have to understand, like if

1068
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:34,920
Speaker 1: we're not going to nation build, then what are we

1069
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:37,560
Speaker 1: just going to have troops in Iraq or Syria or

1070
01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:40,360
Speaker 1: wherever they're going to stay there forever. You know, as

1071
01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:43,520
Speaker 1: you said that, we haven't connected the two ends. Did

1072
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:48,960
Speaker 1: he have a suggestion? UM? I think he would suggest UM.

1073
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:50,960
Speaker 1: Didn't he have a specific thing? It was like two

1074
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:54,520
Speaker 1: and a half generation he did. He did, UM. But

1075
01:01:54,560 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 1: I think what he was talking about was we need

1076
01:01:57,560 --> 01:02:00,440
Speaker 1: to have in Afghanistan a fifty year plan, and we

1077
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:02,200
Speaker 1: need to have an understanding that when you deploy to

1078
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:04,680
Speaker 1: Afghanistan for a year, you're not there to win the

1079
01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:07,120
Speaker 1: war in the year, You're there to just advance the

1080
01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 1: plan a little bit. And yeah, it takes several generations,

1081
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:13,920
Speaker 1: but that that seems like something that's unrealistic. For as

1082
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:16,800
Speaker 1: much as I love Mark, Um, it seems like the

1083
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:21,800
Speaker 1: American public doesn't have the patience or the stamina for

1084
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:24,920
Speaker 1: a long term campaign like that. So I have one

1085
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:27,600
Speaker 1: comment on that, which is that I think there's a

1086
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:32,720
Speaker 1: particular moment or and sometimes a short interval in a conflict,

1087
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:36,720
Speaker 1: where you could persuade Congress to make a long term

1088
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:39,240
Speaker 1: commitment to the security of another country or what I

1089
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:42,000
Speaker 1: sometimes what I would call the Korea solution. Right, we're

1090
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:45,080
Speaker 1: still in Korea. Um, it's not cheap to be there.

1091
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:49,280
Speaker 1: There hasn't been armed conflict since nineteen fifty three, so

1092
01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:51,760
Speaker 1: we are basically we are two and a half generational

1093
01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:55,360
Speaker 1: numbers of troops. Right. Um. The threat is still there

1094
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:58,440
Speaker 1: to some extent, and that remains a concern. But but

1095
01:02:58,520 --> 01:03:02,640
Speaker 1: we certainly did nay building economy building very successfully in Korea.

1096
01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:07,160
Speaker 1: In Vietnam, Um, I make the argument in the book

1097
01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:10,080
Speaker 1: that there was a window of opportunity when Richard Nixon

1098
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:13,400
Speaker 1: might have gotten Congress to sign on to a long

1099
01:03:13,480 --> 01:03:15,840
Speaker 1: term commitment to the South Vietnamese government that would have

1100
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:21,520
Speaker 1: kept American advisers there, American UM planes there to bomb

1101
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:24,800
Speaker 1: if the North Vietnamese attacked. Then the North Vietnamese at

1102
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:27,720
Speaker 1: that point had been crippled by losses in tet and

1103
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:30,760
Speaker 1: the year after tet Um, the American anti war movement

1104
01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:34,680
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty nine have been set back by Nixon's

1105
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:39,720
Speaker 1: success Um, and so it's for probably six months between

1106
01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:43,160
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty nine and nineteen fall sixty nine early nineteen

1107
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:46,960
Speaker 1: seventy Nixon probably could have pushed through Congress at the

1108
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 1: peak of his popularity, legislation that would have committed the

1109
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:53,840
Speaker 1: United States to a long term relationship with the Saigon government.

1110
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 1: He blew it because he invaded Cambodia and Um, you know,

1111
01:03:58,040 --> 01:04:00,720
Speaker 1: revived the anti war movement and the Democrat ats, So

1112
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:03,440
Speaker 1: the window passed. I think there was a window in

1113
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:07,440
Speaker 1: Afghanistan um for a long term security commitment. Probably when

1114
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:10,280
Speaker 1: Obama first came into office, he could have a he

1115
01:04:10,320 --> 01:04:13,000
Speaker 1: could have negotiated and with Congress and had a long

1116
01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:16,360
Speaker 1: term commitment that would have kept the American American presence

1117
01:04:16,360 --> 01:04:19,600
Speaker 1: there in American Aid going UM. But at this point

1118
01:04:19,680 --> 01:04:21,960
Speaker 1: it's probably too late to do that. I think the

1119
01:04:22,000 --> 01:04:25,480
Speaker 1: American people don't feel strongly enough to make a significant commitment.

1120
01:04:26,280 --> 01:04:29,400
Speaker 1: So if you're going, if you think you need to

1121
01:04:29,440 --> 01:04:31,560
Speaker 1: be there for a long time, and you want to

1122
01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:34,400
Speaker 1: signal that to an adversary too, you have to know

1123
01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:36,640
Speaker 1: when the window is that you can get Congress to

1124
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:39,600
Speaker 1: buy into it. It's and if you do that, I

1125
01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:42,200
Speaker 1: think you can get a career type solution in some

1126
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:44,760
Speaker 1: of these conflicts is that one of the things where

1127
01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:47,480
Speaker 1: it would be a trade off, like UM, some of

1128
01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:49,680
Speaker 1: the troops caps that we've had in Syria and then

1129
01:04:49,720 --> 01:04:52,120
Speaker 1: in the past we had in like Hunduras and places

1130
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:55,040
Speaker 1: like that, where it's like you can deploy a hundred

1131
01:04:55,040 --> 01:04:58,040
Speaker 1: troops or five hundred troops or whatever, and that's the

1132
01:04:58,080 --> 01:05:00,720
Speaker 1: tradeoff you make with Congress. It could take a variety

1133
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:03,280
Speaker 1: of different forms UM. I think with the point. The

1134
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:06,240
Speaker 1: point is you want at some point Congress to buy

1135
01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:09,800
Speaker 1: into the idea that we we have a long term

1136
01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:13,000
Speaker 1: commitment to this government UM and to this and to

1137
01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:16,400
Speaker 1: its survival, and it's important to American national security interest,

1138
01:05:17,040 --> 01:05:18,800
Speaker 1: and you have to do that while people still care

1139
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:21,760
Speaker 1: enough about the conflict, while you have enough political support

1140
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:24,960
Speaker 1: as president to do that, while we're anti war. Opposition

1141
01:05:25,080 --> 01:05:29,160
Speaker 1: is not firmly against that, or isn't strong enough to

1142
01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:30,960
Speaker 1: stop you from doing that. There are a number of

1143
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:35,560
Speaker 1: combinations here, um, but presidents recognizing a window of opportunity

1144
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:38,840
Speaker 1: is an important part of their leadership skill. Andy, this

1145
01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:42,200
Speaker 1: has been an awesome conversation, So glad you can come

1146
01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:45,800
Speaker 1: in today because that we interview a lot of veterans,

1147
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:48,240
Speaker 1: a lot of people with military expertise, but we typically

1148
01:05:48,240 --> 01:05:51,320
Speaker 1: talk more on the tactical level. And UM, I think

1149
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:53,720
Speaker 1: it's rare that we get into this sort of high

1150
01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:58,480
Speaker 1: level strategic thought that goes in into the decisions that

1151
01:05:58,520 --> 01:06:01,400
Speaker 1: are made to get us into war and get us out.

1152
01:06:01,760 --> 01:06:06,840
Speaker 1: Their expression of amateurs talk tactics, professional talks, professionals talk logistics,

1153
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:11,120
Speaker 1: and academics talk politics. The problem is that they don't

1154
01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:14,560
Speaker 1: understand each other. That's always the problem. Yeah, that and

1155
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:18,640
Speaker 1: that that that can be And UM, one of the

1156
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:21,160
Speaker 1: things I'm proud of about the book is that, um,

1157
01:06:21,240 --> 01:06:23,960
Speaker 1: the people who read it and reviewed it have not

1158
01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:27,720
Speaker 1: not found flaws with the military analysis that's in the book.

1159
01:06:27,920 --> 01:06:32,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I take very seriously the need to be

1160
01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:35,120
Speaker 1: accurate in all of what I say. Um and I've

1161
01:06:35,120 --> 01:06:38,280
Speaker 1: certainly read a lot of books by academics who get

1162
01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:42,000
Speaker 1: the tactics part wrong, so I paid attention to that too. Yeah,

1163
01:06:42,160 --> 01:06:46,360
Speaker 1: when war is all about details. The website is Andrew

1164
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:49,480
Speaker 1: Polski dot com. The book, once again, although it's not

1165
01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:52,360
Speaker 1: a new book, but hopefully our audience picks it up,

1166
01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:56,400
Speaker 1: is Elusive Victories the American Presidency at War, covering everything

1167
01:06:56,560 --> 01:06:59,720
Speaker 1: from the early presidencies all the way up to George W. Bush.

1168
01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:03,280
Speaker 1: And I should ask you as well. In the nineties

1169
01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:05,800
Speaker 1: you authored a book called The Rise of the Therapeutic State.

1170
01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:07,320
Speaker 1: If people want to check that out, you want to

1171
01:07:07,320 --> 01:07:10,880
Speaker 1: give us a brief synopsis. It's not it's an academic book.

1172
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:13,479
Speaker 1: It's not written for a general audience. This I won't

1173
01:07:13,520 --> 01:07:16,120
Speaker 1: say this book is an easy or quick read, but

1174
01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:19,080
Speaker 1: by comparison with that one, this one is the one

1175
01:07:19,120 --> 01:07:21,400
Speaker 1: I would direct people to. What what is the Rise

1176
01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:25,280
Speaker 1: of the Therapeutic State. It's about social welfare programs and

1177
01:07:25,760 --> 01:07:28,960
Speaker 1: about the intrusiveness of social welfare programs and how they

1178
01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:31,480
Speaker 1: developed over time. Interesting how do you how do you

1179
01:07:31,480 --> 01:07:34,520
Speaker 1: like being a professor? Though at Hunter UM I liked

1180
01:07:34,560 --> 01:07:37,040
Speaker 1: it very much at the moment I moved over into

1181
01:07:37,080 --> 01:07:40,920
Speaker 1: academic administration. But this book wouldn't I don't know that

1182
01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:43,520
Speaker 1: this book would exist. The Elusive Victories might not have

1183
01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:46,200
Speaker 1: been written if it weren't for my students at Hunter College.

1184
01:07:46,680 --> 01:07:49,920
Speaker 1: UM in the students at Hunter College asking questions, well,

1185
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:53,160
Speaker 1: if they they started after the war began in Iraq,

1186
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:56,280
Speaker 1: we had to teach in at Hunter and the students

1187
01:07:56,400 --> 01:07:59,200
Speaker 1: organized it and asked faculty and political science to talk

1188
01:07:59,240 --> 01:08:02,240
Speaker 1: about senance at war, we'll talk about what we'll talk

1189
01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:06,040
Speaker 1: about the war. I talked about wartime presidential powers there,

1190
01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:09,640
Speaker 1: and then I began to include it in courses that

1191
01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:12,920
Speaker 1: I taught, and I taught even specifically courses on wartime

1192
01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:15,880
Speaker 1: presidential leadership. I had students, some of whom I name

1193
01:08:15,960 --> 01:08:18,080
Speaker 1: in the book and my acknowledgements, who worked with me

1194
01:08:18,160 --> 01:08:23,080
Speaker 1: on research UM so their curiosity about it inspired me

1195
01:08:23,200 --> 01:08:27,759
Speaker 1: to get deeply into this subject UM as an outgrowth

1196
01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:30,519
Speaker 1: of earlier work that I had done on the presidency UM.

1197
01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:34,479
Speaker 1: I think Hunter College is an amazing public university with

1198
01:08:34,520 --> 01:08:36,840
Speaker 1: a remarkable set of students and I'm proud to have

1199
01:08:36,880 --> 01:08:40,920
Speaker 1: spent my career there associated with them. Excellent. Well, this

1200
01:08:40,920 --> 01:08:42,760
Speaker 1: this has been great. As Jack said, it kind of

1201
01:08:42,800 --> 01:08:45,400
Speaker 1: switches it up from what we normally do, which we

1202
01:08:45,400 --> 01:08:48,440
Speaker 1: we enjoy doing now and again it's kind of conversation

1203
01:08:48,520 --> 01:08:51,519
Speaker 1: I think is important to understand many of the other

1204
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:54,479
Speaker 1: podcasts we've done with you know, we did one with

1205
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:58,200
Speaker 1: Mike Lampy the other day, who was um one of

1206
01:08:58,240 --> 01:09:01,559
Speaker 1: the really the fathers of or four special operations, and

1207
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:03,120
Speaker 1: he was one of the guys on the ground at

1208
01:09:03,160 --> 01:09:07,759
Speaker 1: Desert one in Iran. In we start to understand those

1209
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:09,880
Speaker 1: things and how they happen and why they happened. I

1210
01:09:09,880 --> 01:09:12,320
Speaker 1: mean that was the Carter administration. Did you look at

1211
01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:15,479
Speaker 1: Operation Eagle Claw at all? No? No, But I will

1212
01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:18,760
Speaker 1: say also another factor that entered into my writing the

1213
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:21,479
Speaker 1: book was that my son, as I mentioned before we

1214
01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:23,920
Speaker 1: went out of my son was going into the military.

1215
01:09:24,439 --> 01:09:27,920
Speaker 1: UM did r OTC going into the army, into the infantry.

1216
01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:33,960
Speaker 1: About the time I was writing the book and talking

1217
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:37,880
Speaker 1: to him, talking to other r OTC cadets, his friends,

1218
01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:43,160
Speaker 1: UM I got I became more interested, more aware of

1219
01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:45,920
Speaker 1: the seriousness of what they were prepared to do with

1220
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:50,400
Speaker 1: their lives and more mindful even then of the heavy

1221
01:09:50,439 --> 01:09:55,479
Speaker 1: burden that a president should feel before committing troops to

1222
01:09:55,560 --> 01:09:59,680
Speaker 1: the war. UM. At one point, right about the time

1223
01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:03,719
Speaker 1: the book was published, I also was invited um by

1224
01:10:05,080 --> 01:10:07,720
Speaker 1: Colonel Ike Wilson to come up to West Point and

1225
01:10:07,760 --> 01:10:11,920
Speaker 1: talk to them two cadets there about it um and

1226
01:10:12,479 --> 01:10:14,679
Speaker 1: at and at another time when I was talking about

1227
01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:17,479
Speaker 1: the book, I was. I gave lectures based on the

1228
01:10:17,479 --> 01:10:20,920
Speaker 1: book a couple of times in Vietnam. Yeah, and uh

1229
01:10:21,920 --> 01:10:24,880
Speaker 1: talking about the talking about the American War as they

1230
01:10:24,880 --> 01:10:29,599
Speaker 1: called talking about the American War UM on the Mekong

1231
01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:32,720
Speaker 1: River or at the U. S Consulate and Hochi Minh

1232
01:10:32,760 --> 01:10:37,160
Speaker 1: City is a very different experience from talking about the

1233
01:10:37,160 --> 01:10:40,640
Speaker 1: war here in the United States. And interestingly I was

1234
01:10:40,680 --> 01:10:43,240
Speaker 1: told there when I met some of the people in

1235
01:10:43,240 --> 01:10:47,479
Speaker 1: intellectuals and ho Chi Minh City when I was there

1236
01:10:49,040 --> 01:10:52,519
Speaker 1: the the American War. Courses on the American War are

1237
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:56,360
Speaker 1: not taught by history departments in Vietnam, taught by political department.

1238
01:10:56,400 --> 01:10:59,840
Speaker 1: They are taught by the Department of Marxism Leninism. So

1239
01:11:00,200 --> 01:11:05,040
Speaker 1: it apparently is is still considered too sensitive a subject

1240
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:11,120
Speaker 1: um to trust to history alone. Wow, very interesting as

1241
01:11:11,160 --> 01:11:15,200
Speaker 1: scar as we leave. Yeah, well, wrapping things up here.

1242
01:11:15,720 --> 01:11:17,559
Speaker 1: As I always let you guys know, we have some

1243
01:11:17,720 --> 01:11:20,599
Speaker 1: very interesting stuff going on here in Hurricane Group. Um,

1244
01:11:20,720 --> 01:11:23,280
Speaker 1: if you go to Hurricane dot Media you can see

1245
01:11:23,280 --> 01:11:25,519
Speaker 1: all of it. I'm gonna tell you some things on

1246
01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:27,840
Speaker 1: the horizon right now, though, be sure to check out

1247
01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:30,840
Speaker 1: Create Club. We have different tiers of membership depending on

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Speaker 1: that all out of Create Club dot Us. Once again,

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Speaker 1: that's Great Club dot Us. Also, as a reminder for

1256
01:11:56,240 --> 01:11:58,640
Speaker 1: those listening, now is the time to sign up for

1257
01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:02,400
Speaker 1: the spec Ops Channel. That's our channel that offers the

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Speaker 1: most exclusive shows, documentaries and interviews covering the most exciting

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Speaker 1: let you guys know about that we're really pushing very hard.

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Speaker 1: Here is the news Rep Financial Report. This is exclusive

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Speaker 1: national defense industry. By subscribing now, you'll get exclusive access

1278
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Speaker 1: to our industry expertise, the news Rep Financial Newsletter Advantage,

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01:13:21,280 --> 01:13:25,680
Speaker 1: which is our team that offers unmatched defense industry familiarity

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01:13:25,720 --> 01:13:30,680
Speaker 1: and expertise, unbiased knowledge of geopolitical trends. Full access to

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01:13:30,760 --> 01:13:35,679
Speaker 1: news Reps Foreign Policy, security and financial intelligence platform, access

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01:13:35,720 --> 01:13:38,640
Speaker 1: to our team of experts and analysts. Just go to

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01:13:38,680 --> 01:13:40,519
Speaker 1: the finn Rep tab that's right at the top of

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01:13:40,560 --> 01:13:42,439
Speaker 1: the news rep dot com. Go to the news rep

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01:13:42,479 --> 01:13:45,599
Speaker 1: dot com, click on the fin Rep tab at the top.

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01:13:46,120 --> 01:13:48,760
Speaker 1: If you're a member, you actually don't have access to this.

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01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:51,400
Speaker 1: So this is a separate thing that we're doing and

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01:13:51,840 --> 01:13:53,960
Speaker 1: people are loving it. So it's right there on the

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01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:56,759
Speaker 1: news rep dot com the fin Rep tab at the top.

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01:13:57,200 --> 01:14:00,400
Speaker 1: Sign up for that as well. And uh aaking of

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01:14:00,520 --> 01:14:03,519
Speaker 1: like switching things up. Next episode, we're gonna have a

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01:14:03,520 --> 01:14:07,000
Speaker 1: guy on that is from a really interesting background, really,

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01:14:07,280 --> 01:14:10,280
Speaker 1: you know, outside of the media world. Although he self

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01:14:10,280 --> 01:14:14,360
Speaker 1: published this book and that's Captain Edward Black, who wrote

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Speaker 1: True Stories of a small town Cop. We know we

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Speaker 1: have a lot of people in the law enforcement community

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Speaker 1: who listen, and uh, I think it's good to get

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01:14:21,720 --> 01:14:25,160
Speaker 1: that perspective sometimes I and and maybe you make some

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01:14:25,240 --> 01:14:27,479
Speaker 1: statements out of ignorance of you know, we don't have

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01:14:27,479 --> 01:14:31,519
Speaker 1: that background. So I'm fascinated by that because the big

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01:14:31,560 --> 01:14:36,120
Speaker 1: town cops, uh, they're covered quite well by big town newspapers,

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01:14:36,479 --> 01:14:40,240
Speaker 1: but rural America is it's like a black hole a

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Speaker 1: lot of times as far as the media is concerned,

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Speaker 1: so I'm I'm excited to hear what he has to say. Yeah,

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01:14:46,080 --> 01:14:48,120
Speaker 1: And and then on the horizon we have some other

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01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:50,960
Speaker 1: great guests. Mike Schlitz is gonna come back on with us.

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01:14:50,960 --> 01:14:52,960
Speaker 1: It's it's been a very long time since we've had

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01:14:53,040 --> 01:14:56,679
Speaker 1: Mike on. UM. Before I leave for Florida, i'd i'd

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01:14:56,680 --> 01:14:59,560
Speaker 1: actually like to do possibly a show of just Q

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01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:01,680
Speaker 1: and an A. Uh So, if you guys want to

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01:15:01,680 --> 01:15:04,559
Speaker 1: send some emails to soft Rep dot radio at soft

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01:15:04,600 --> 01:15:07,080
Speaker 1: rep dot com. I'll try to get to all those.

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01:15:07,320 --> 01:15:10,560
Speaker 1: Maybe do that show. It's just an idea I have. Um,

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01:15:10,600 --> 01:15:13,080
Speaker 1: I've gotten a lot of recent emails though that are

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01:15:13,320 --> 01:15:16,960
Speaker 1: extremely long. Keep it, keep it concise to like one

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01:15:17,040 --> 01:15:19,560
Speaker 1: or two questions. This guy sent me like nine questions.

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01:15:19,800 --> 01:15:21,240
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna get to that. So yeah, if it

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01:15:21,680 --> 01:15:24,920
Speaker 1: if it's uh sorry, yeah, and uh Andy is laughing

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01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:27,040
Speaker 1: at that, but yeah, if it's just you know, concise,

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01:15:27,200 --> 01:15:28,920
Speaker 1: we like to answer that stuff. So send it to

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01:15:28,960 --> 01:15:31,760
Speaker 1: soft Rep dot Radio at soft rep dot com. And

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01:15:31,800 --> 01:15:34,840
Speaker 1: then before we did this interview, I was in here

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01:15:34,880 --> 01:15:37,479
Speaker 1: early and I interviewed Kristen Beck, who has been on

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01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:40,479
Speaker 1: the show plenty of times, but who I've never met.

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01:15:40,880 --> 01:15:43,000
Speaker 1: We talked about a whole lot of stuff. We went

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Speaker 1: ninety minutes and I'm gonna have that for when I leave.

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Speaker 1: Uh So it's not the best st of so be

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01:15:49,600 --> 01:15:53,240
Speaker 1: prepared to hear that one. In March, Kristen Beck and

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Speaker 1: myself we went over a whole lot of things because

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Speaker 1: Christen happened to be in New York and was here

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Speaker 1: with her dog Lily, and people outside we're loving seeing

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01:16:03,640 --> 01:16:06,479
Speaker 1: you know, big service dog gear. But we got into

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Speaker 1: some we we talked about drones, we talked about women

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Speaker 1: in combat, um and and just Christian's career with several

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Speaker 1: you know, seal teams and records that that Kristen broke.

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Speaker 1: Sorry I missed that one, I dare you. Yeah, I've

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Speaker 1: asked people about about her in the past times in

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Speaker 1: the in the seal teams, and everyone's like, no, when

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01:16:28,080 --> 01:16:32,640
Speaker 1: back when she was he uh good seal good. Well,

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01:16:32,680 --> 01:16:36,439
Speaker 1: if you listen to this episode, you know, it gets

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Speaker 1: into records that she broke on the shooting range and

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Speaker 1: things like that, and you know it's pretty cool. Um

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01:16:42,040 --> 01:16:44,360
Speaker 1: so maybe you'll want to listen back to that one.

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01:16:44,800 --> 01:16:48,000
Speaker 1: But it was, um it was interesting to finally meet

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01:16:48,040 --> 01:16:52,840
Speaker 1: the person in person. Um, once again, it's uh, Andrew

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Speaker 1: Polsky dot com. Check out Elusive Victories, anything else that

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01:16:57,280 --> 01:16:59,320
Speaker 1: you want to get to before we wrap this up.

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01:16:59,680 --> 01:17:02,519
Speaker 1: It probably doesn't serve my interest to say this, but um,

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of used copies available on Amazon

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01:17:07,240 --> 01:17:09,439
Speaker 1: for very for a very low price. As author, I

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01:17:09,479 --> 01:17:11,880
Speaker 1: don't get any royalties but as author right now, but

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Speaker 1: I'd really like to have as people read the book.

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01:17:14,320 --> 01:17:16,920
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's pretty cool. That means you really

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Speaker 1: stand behind you know the importance of what you're writing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: any uh, I think I asked this before it came in,

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Speaker 1: But any further books on the horizon on the distance horizon,

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01:17:26,840 --> 01:17:29,040
Speaker 1: But we'll have to wait. Okay, maybe we'll have you

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01:17:29,080 --> 01:17:31,800
Speaker 1: back in if it's in our wheelhouse. I thought this

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Speaker 1: is a great one. Thanks, thanks for coming in. We

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Speaker 1: will love having people in studio and hopefully this audience

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01:17:38,160 --> 01:17:40,839
Speaker 1: enjoys it because, like we said, it's it's something very different,

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Speaker 1: but as you said, ties into other episodes that we've done. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: If you want to understand why the decisions were made

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01:17:48,000 --> 01:17:51,160
Speaker 1: to launch military operations that we talk about every day,

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01:17:51,200 --> 01:17:53,719
Speaker 1: I think you have to read about the strategic thought

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01:17:53,720 --> 01:17:57,800
Speaker 1: that goes into it. Well. Seven cool. Thank you, Thank

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Speaker 1: you so much. Been listening to self Rep Radio. New

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Speaker 1: episodes up every Wednesday and Friday. Follow the show on

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Speaker 1: Instagram and Twitter at self Rep Radio