WEBVTT - Andrew McCarthy on redefining a bad reputation 0:00:04.120 --> 0:00:06.400 What do you do when life doesn't go according to plan? 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:09.760 That moment you lose a job, or a loved one, 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:14.080 or even a piece of yourself. I'm Brookshields and this 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:18.759 is now What, a podcast about pivotal moments as told 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:21.600 by people who lived them. Each week, I sit down 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:23.840 with a guest to talk about the times they were 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:26.920 knocked off course and what they did to move forward. 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:33.080 Some stories are funny, others are gut wrenching, but all 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:38.320 are unapologetically human and remind us that every success and 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:42.800 every setback is accompanied by a choice, and that choice 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:50.879 answers one question, now what? So you have a nine. 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:53.360 Year old I do, and a sixteen year old sick. 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:56.640 My daughter Willow is sixteen and Sam is twenty one. 0:00:57.280 --> 0:01:00.560 We're going to see Taylor Swift tomorrow night, so excited. 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:04.320 And she got me a very spangly silver, sparkly blazer 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:05.679 that I'm to wear at the concert. 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:08.400 Are you a swifty? Now? You're a swifty? 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:10.240 Well? I can say that. I hear a lot of 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:12.319 tailors Swift in the car, and I think she's kind 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:16.640 of great. But I yeah, I'm by proxy, I gilt 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:17.360 by association. 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:22.880 My guest today is an old friend and a familiar 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:25.240 face to anyone who came of age in the eighties. 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:28.960 Andrew McCarthy is a writer, director, actor, and famously a 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:32.319 member of the Brat Pack. He became a household name 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:35.440 thanks to films like Pretty in Pink and Weekend at 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:39.160 Bernie's before pivoting to a successful career as a TV 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:43.240 and travel writer and director. We got to know each 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:45.880 other well when we co starred on the show Lipstick Jungle, 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:49.520 and time and again I was impressed by his versatility, 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:54.720 charm and quiet intelligence. His hustle and flexibility are something 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:57.520 to be admired, and I can't wait for all of 0:01:57.560 --> 0:01:59.600 you to get to know him a little better and 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:04.640 take a fun trip down memory link. Here is Andrew McCarthy. 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:11.520 I'm trying to think of how long we've known each other. 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:14.120 We've known each other quite a while. 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:15.519 Yeah, I don't know why. 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:18.000 But it's interesting because I feel like I really just 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:21.600 got to know you for real life when you directed 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:25.000 Lipstick Jungle. When you acted in it, obviously, but when 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:27.960 I really got to experience you as a human being, 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:30.200 it was being directed by you. 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:32.960 I wonder what the difference was being directed by me? 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:33.960 Is just acting with me. 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:39.079 It was different, I think because I'm really I really 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:41.400 do take one hat off and put another one on. 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:44.520 And I think it's the first time I really had 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:47.960 been directed by an actor. When did you become a director? 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:49.040 When did you first direct? 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:52.880 Go on that show for real Life? No, you had 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:57.000 I directed a short film before that that I made myself. 0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:01.200 And the episode you directed was very well. There were 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:03.880 so many moving pieces to it, like That's what was 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:07.160 so interesting to me was it was a big episode, 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:10.440 meaning like lots of people and lots of activity, and 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:17.040 I remember thinking, damn, like he's so multi talented. It 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:22.040 always amazes me how people I'm gonna say, like us, 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:25.480 because I'm gonna put myself in your category who sort 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:29.519 of become very well known and sort of extremely famous early, 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:35.080 how little people expect we're capable of. 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:38.880 Well, I would certainly put myself into your category, not 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:43.840 you into mine. But that's really true. That's really true, 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:47.120 And I imagine more so even for a woman clearly 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:49.800 and a beautiful woman, because those are two things that 0:03:49.920 --> 0:03:52.160 they immediately you know, you're immediately thought of as having 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:58.000 less intelligence, you know still, but yes, for me, it 0:03:58.080 --> 0:04:00.400 was more I was perceived as like, well he didn't 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:03.080 even not going to care, Like it was a show 0:04:03.160 --> 0:04:04.560 up and think people other people are going to do 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:06.640 the work. You know. But what you and I both 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:09.560 have and what we learned very young, and one of 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:11.440 the things I always most admire about you is you 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:14.840 know how to work and go to work and like 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:17.680 be prepared and show up and go to work. And 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:19.839 that's you know a lot of people don't. 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:23.000 Where was that stigma for you? Like I was blue 0:04:23.080 --> 0:04:26.119 Lagoon or pretty where you were brad Packed? 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:28.120 Yeah? Yeah, the minute I was, the minute the brad 0:04:28.120 --> 0:04:30.720 Pack label was leveled, that was it yould at a 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:33.360 certain level of movie. That's the kind of actor you were, 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:36.800 And that was that and I was, you know, dismissed 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:39.479 as that. You know what's weird is that, of course, 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:41.679 the brad Pack label has grown to be this iconically 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:45.960 affectionate term for a moment in pop culture, and me 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:48.039 and other members of the brad Pack and you to 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:50.880 a lesser degree because you're so you're your own unique 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:54.440 kind of thing, but you know, we are the avatars 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:57.080 of a certain generation. So it's you're now seen with 0:04:57.120 --> 0:04:59.440 great affection all but the brad Pack was a very 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:01.400 derogatory term when it was first leveled. 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:05.359 Our affection took about forty years to kick in on 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:05.840 that line. 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:08.200 Yeah, no, I think so. I think so into a 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:10.200 very real I think people have I had affection for 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:15.680 the brat pack more quickly than I did. Why Why 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:18.800 Because I it was cast in aspersion. It was cast 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:22.080 as its way of going your brats and you're in 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:23.719 this pack and who wants to be seen as a 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:25.680 pack when you're a young actor and all that, And 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:28.159 it was just a labeling and a branding and you know, 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:30.000 all any of us ever want is to be seen, 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:33.880 right see who I am? And you know, as my 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:36.279 career was starting, is that, you know, I was like 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:39.800 wondrous and wonderful and exciting and thrilling, and then sudden 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:41.120 we're in the brat pack and it was just like 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:44.880 a I lost control of the narrative of my career 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:49.640 and in many ways my life. Because forty odd years later, 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:52.520 thirty five years later, in any introduction of me, brad 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:54.400 pack will still be mentioned in the first sentence, you know, 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:57.120 But I have come. I'm speaking about it with some 0:05:57.200 --> 0:05:59.200 spleen now because that's what it was like back then. 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:01.440 But I have come to see. You know, when people 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:03.840 look at me and they come up to me now 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:07.120 about Putty in Pink or whatever, they have such a 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:10.200 glassy eyed look of affection in their eyes, and you 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:13.640 know they're talking about themselves that in their youth, and 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:16.839 that I've come to represent that to them. Took me decades, 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:18.880 but to realize what a beautiful thing that is. 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:25.200 Doing the documentary about it help you reclaim it. 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:28.200 Writing the book about it helped me to understand it. 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:30.400 So I wrote a book a couple of years ago 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:33.080 about that time infe because I'd never looked at it, 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:35.719 and I'd run from it, you know, and I just 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:37.560 wanted to get on with my whatever, and I thought, 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:40.480 I shaid, it's not going anywhere. Maybe you should try 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:43.600 to look at this seminal moment in your life and 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:47.479 actually see what went on there. And so, as you know, 0:06:47.760 --> 0:06:49.520 when you write something, and you said, it helps you 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:52.400 understand it, and then you have to be careful when 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:55.440 you write something because then it becomes what happened. And 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:57.760 so I took pains to kind of go, wait, what 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:00.280 actually happened, as opposed to just the story said I'm 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:01.919 going to tell, Because we tell these stories that happened. 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:04.360 Oh yeah, and you tell stories, you've told them for decades, 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:07.760 and yet you have what really happened. And so when 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:13.440 I kind of looked at it and realized, and you know, 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:15.679 I'm much more than the sum of my parts because 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:17.800 I'm in the member of the brat packet. Actually what 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:20.520 a you know, a wondrous kind of thing it was, 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:23.040 And that was a wondrous. It was a seismic change 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:25.600 in popular culture and in movie culture at that time. 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:29.040 We forget now, but movies weren't about young people till 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:31.840 you did, like, you know, to Animal House and you 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:34.280 did Blue Lagoon, and that started movies to be about 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:36.640 young people, you know what I mean. And then suddenly 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:38.440 are little movies come on, and then the Brat pack 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:42.360 comes along with John Hughes, where they're taking young people seriously, 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:45.840 and Hollywood has realized, suddenly, oh my god, these kids 0:07:45.880 --> 0:07:48.800 are going five, six, seven times. Grown ups only go once. 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:52.000 Screw that, Let's make movies for kids. And Hollywood has 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:53.320 never recovered from that. 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:56.440 Are you able to look back and be proud of it? 0:07:57.000 --> 0:07:59.480 Oh? I think they're awesome. I think they're fantastic. I'd 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:02.320 have great affection for them. Now. I think some of 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:05.280 the movies are wouldn't be made today, certainly, like you're 0:08:05.280 --> 0:08:06.760 never going to make Mannequin today. 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:09.080 You're not gonna make pretty Baby today, and. 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:11.240 Not gonna make pretty Bigy. You know, You're not going 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:13.360 to make most of the movies. You're not going to 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:16.120 make saying almost fired today, Emilio is a stalker and 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:18.440 you know, and all those kinds of suff So you're 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:20.040 not going to make any of those movies or a 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:22.320 lot of the John Hughes movies either, because they're you know, 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:24.880 I have they're exploitative in certain ways, but I have 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:27.160 great affection for them now because I do think that 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:27.800 they you know. 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:30.240 It's a shame that it takes us this long to 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:33.240 have affection. I don't have the same kind of affection 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:37.319 because the thing that I never got to do was 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:40.520 grow as a talent. And I will say that what 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:44.959 I when I look at your films and any of 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:48.600 the ones you just mentioned, I remember and I was 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:52.600 this was I was there at the time. I remember 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:56.120 watching those movies and thinking, God, those people got to 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:59.160 actually really act, and they got to grow and they 0:08:59.200 --> 0:08:59.960 got to be directed. 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:04.080 Well, Brooke, I mean that's I was running around with 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:06.520 a mannequin and dragging a dead body around. I don't 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:09.240 know how much acting I was, but I think. 0:09:09.080 --> 0:09:12.240 That's what It's harder to do that kind of comedy. 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:16.200 It's harder. I mean I was walking around hair on 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:20.400 my boobs, like with a squeaky voice, not not accessing 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:21.040 any emotion. 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:25.120 Like yeah, I mean, you know, one of the amazing 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:28.240 things about you is that you know you were wildly 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:30.360 exploited in this way, and yet you just sort of 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:32.200 have owned your life, and you know, so I thought 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:34.040 it was in such respect for that. But you know, 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:37.880 maybe you tell me this is a little pop psychologizing, 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:41.000 but you know that's your thing, that's your is you, 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:43.320 Like I didn't get a chance to go. I remember 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:44.920 when I were acting with you, when we were on 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:46.960 that show together, all you wanted to do was really 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:50.600 dig into the work and like be seen as as 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:52.720 an actor and like someone who really enjoyed the work 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:55.199 and was interested in doing good work and stuff. And 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:58.800 whether that wasn't asked of you or we each have 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:01.560 our thing of what we have a lens through which 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:03.880 we look at the world, and like when I was younger, 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:06.080 I looked at the world I'm not smart, and so 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:08.720 that's how I perceived other people perceived me in a 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:09.240 certain way. 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:11.120 Why why did you say that? 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:13.040 Oh, because I was terrible at school. 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:15.320 Which which is analogous to you. I'm not smart. 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:17.079 Yes, And when you're growing up and you're in school 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:18.720 schools for smart people, you don't do well in school, 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:21.199 you're not smart. Obviously that's incorrect. 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:25.280 But that's why you're so much smarter than ninety nine 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:26.240 percent of the people like that. 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:28.200 Nobody, but like, I'm the same thing about you, Like 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:29.800 you do know how to work, and you do. But 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:32.800 because this is a perception we get early about ourselves 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:36.840 where it's you know, body dysmorphy or whatever the world is, 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:40.440 you know it? Or life? Yeah, you know what I mean. 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:41.840 And I think we get in a lot of trouble 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:44.360 when we put on those pair of glasses and apply 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:47.439 them universally in our lives, because they don't really apply. 0:10:55.920 --> 0:11:00.160 I've recently just done Pretty Baby, the documentary. Right, I 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:02.360 didn't produce it, I didn't direct it. I just was 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:06.080 in it. But what's been interesting to me is I 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:08.200 didn't know how people were going to respond to it, 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:11.240 but people have been coming away from it with a 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:18.160 broader understanding of actually who I am. Is there something 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:21.719 that you wish people really heard and knew about you? 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:26.360 Well, maybe it's just because I've I turned sixty this year, 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:28.719 and so that's really kind of threw me for a 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:30.720 loop for a while. I'd never blinked about my age, 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:32.440 you know, forty fifty and over blinked in six. I 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:34.880 was like, Wow, it's the beginning of being old, and 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:39.280 particularly someone like who's famous for being young. Now you're like, 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:42.400 what happened to the middle Anyway, I kind of found 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:44.959 myself I don't really care. I don't really need you 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:50.320 want to know anything. I want to be successful only 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:53.160 in the sense that just for ego wise, because that 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:56.559 feels good for eight minutes. But I don't really think 0:11:56.600 --> 0:11:58.959 of myself as even having a career in any way anymore. 0:11:59.000 --> 0:12:01.440 I just wanted things to be successful so that the 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:03.880 next thing that I want to do i'm allowed to 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:07.240 do more easily. I've sort of given up on perception 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:08.400 and how I'm received. 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:10.840 Isn't that freedom, though? Like, isn't it? 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:13.160 Oh? It feels great, it feels I wish. 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:15.760 We didn't have to get to sixty to we didn't 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:18.920 have to but maybe that's the point of all of it. 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:22.520 Well, and suddenly much more spacious. It's a lot more spacious, 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:25.079 for sure. And you know there's something about that drive 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:27.360 and ambition younger that can be useful. 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:30.240 But also you know you've you've done a thing that 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:33.280 I think I did by default. I don't know if 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:37.440 if you planned it, but the versatility of your talent. 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:41.679 Yes you're an actor, Yes you're a director, you're a writer, 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:47.240 but you keep adding to your list of fruition within 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:50.080 your talent. You went to NYU, Okay, you went to 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:53.640 study theater. You got kicked out. I don't know why. 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:54.679 Why'd you get kicked out? 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:56.520 Because I didn't go to my classes? 0:12:57.559 --> 0:12:59.760 You know what that it's interesting that they didn't just 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:01.040 keep taking your tuition. 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:03.400 Well they would have. After I did my first movie. 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:04.840 They kicked me out, and I did my first movie, 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:06.480 and then they invited me back and I could if 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:08.800 I paid the tuition, I could use that for independent study. 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:11.959 And I said, fuck they did they give you an honorary. 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:15.400 Degree, not yet. But like you though, Brooke, all of that, 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:18.280 all of that has come by necessity in a certain way, 0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:22.640 because I stopped being successful as an actor, you know, 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:25.320 brat pack stuff sort of and then diminishing returns, and 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:27.200 I had personally, you know, I drank too much. It 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:29.240 took me a while to sort that problem out, and 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:31.679 when I could have came out of that fog, I 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:34.880 was then chasing like acting, and I realized, oh, this 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:37.400 is heartbreaking. I can't be doing this. So I stumbled 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:40.160 into travel writing. So I embraced that fully and it 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:42.400 was a real creative rebirth for me. And then that 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:44.160 led to books. And then when I realized, you know, 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:45.800 you can't really make enough money travel writing, so I 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:47.560 got to go back, Oh, well, I'll start directing. And 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:50.120 I stumbled into directing and realized I had an aptitude 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:50.440 for it. 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:52.400 So it's not a stumbling. And I want to kind 0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:55.480 of just stop you there for a second, because if 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:59.480 you weren't highly intelligent, you might have gotten a job, 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:01.160 but you wouldn't have been able to get another one 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:04.160 and keep going with it. Right, So there's a humility 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:06.640 that we I'm going to say, we try to have 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:10.400 by saying, oh, it just we stumbled and we just reacted. 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:12.160 Well when I say stumbled, no, you're right. There was 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:15.160 absolute clear intent on both those things. I learned a 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:17.160 lot from the first time when I became. When I 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:19.040 was a young actor, I had no I just knew 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:20.560 I wanted to do that, and I didn't know anything, 0:14:20.600 --> 0:14:22.960 and stuff happened, and it was like stuff happened to me, 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:25.200 and then the brack pack happened to me. And so 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:28.120 when I started writing and wanting to be a travel writer, 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:30.600 I was very careful how I curated it and how 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:32.480 I approached people, like no one knew I was the 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:34.920 broadpack actor being a travel writer, because you know, I 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:36.840 did it. Everything in that world is done by email, 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:39.120 so I would just email people. And when when I 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:42.760 was finally outed for being, oh, the actor, I think 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:44.880 he's a travel writer. By then I'd already written, you 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:47.000 use your name. Yeah, but I mean there's lots of whatever. 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:50.080 Nobody's thinking these kind of things. But by the time 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:51.560 I was out it, I'd already written for the New 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:54.480 York Times and National Geographic Travel and The Atlantic and so. 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:56.520 And I was very careful to curate to write for 0:14:56.640 --> 0:14:59.160 those outlets so that when I am outed, they can't 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:00.080 easily dismiss me. 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:01.880 Do you like one more than the other? 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:04.800 Well? I had an act in about ten fifteen years 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:07.360 when I was just on a or ten years anyway, 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:10.240 on a show last season, and I really enjoyed acting. 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:12.720 It was really you know, it was like breathing to me. 0:15:12.800 --> 0:15:14.520 We've been doing it since we're children, you know, So 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:17.800 I really located myself in that. But you know, I 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:19.600 do like sitting in a room alone. I have to say, 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:21.640 is something about that that I really enjoy as long 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:23.160 as I have something that's going on. 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:26.480 I don't think people know that about you when I 0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:30.400 think of you, when someone says you to me, I'm like, 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:35.640 very intellectual and serious, very analytical, but in the most 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:36.240 beautiful way. 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:38.120 Well you see me, you know. But see, that's one 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:41.360 of the things, Brooke, because you were not seen. You're 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:45.720 very active in your desire to see other people. And 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:47.280 I think that's a great gift because that's all any 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:49.320 of us really want in the world is to be seen. 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:51.800 And you were clearly not seen for who you are, 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:54.000 and so you do that. 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:57.240 Why do you think you drank so much? 0:15:57.480 --> 0:15:59.960 Because I'm an alcoholic, you know. I mean, I don't 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:03.960 believe alcoholism is a reaction to anything else, but I 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:06.880 you know, I always say I drank better vodka because 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:08.960 I was in the movies, but the movie being successful 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:10.600 and the movies did not make me an alcoholic and 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:12.480 being too young for success and all that crap. 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:15.160 What did it do though? What did you like about it? 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:17.320 It relieved my fear for a while. 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:19.120 And what was the fear about? Fear of what? 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:21.400 I don't know. I was just sort of a fearful person. 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:24.520 I was afraid of. You know, what do you got? 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:27.360 Fear is also just sort of feeds on itself. So 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:30.360 fear just sort of is a a thing that sort 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:33.360 of sits right in front of something. So anything you 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:35.480 funnel through it, it comes out with fear on it 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:37.200 because it's sitting in front of you. You know. 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:38.920 Was that from when you were a little kid? 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:39.360 Yeahah? 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:41.640 Does it? Parents? Is it? I don't know. 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:43.440 As a parent, I don't know. I was I was 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:45.600 terrified of my father, But was it because of him? 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:46.880 I don't, you know, I don't know. 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:51.200 I'm always interested in, like again, nature nurture, but the 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:56.960 fear my Okay, I'll share something. My fear was obviously 0:16:57.000 --> 0:16:59.760 never being good enough. But that's because I had an 0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:05.040 in satiable mother and her what she was insatiable for 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:10.040 and about and whatever was love. So like with my father, 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:14.440 I know he loved me, but like I never felt 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:17.800 good enough for him, But not because of anything he did, 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:20.720 just because the image of who my father was to 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:25.480 me was so much larger than life, and I loved 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:28.840 him so much, but I just always felt something wasn't 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:32.880 right with right enough with me. But I'm not a guy, 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:36.320 and I'm curious about men and their relationships with their father. 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:39.760 Oh, I just think I was. I had a very 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:45.920 highly oversensitized temperament, and I always felt my dad didn't 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:48.200 like me. Actually I thought, well, I think if you 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:50.920 were to pop psychoanalyzed it in a way, it would 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:53.160 be my mother's showered affection on me, and my father 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:54.840 was jealous, and so he didn't like me, and so 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:57.680 I was then frightened of him, so fear just I 0:17:57.680 --> 0:17:59.919 don't know. He was just in a company accompanied me 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.080 from very as long as I know, So I don't 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:05.760 where it came from. I don't know. It doesn't even matter, 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:07.480 you know why. I'm kind of relieved to see that 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:10.600 my kids don't seem to have it. I know how 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:13.600 that happen, and that's I'm glad for them. But although 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:15.840 I have to say having a lot of fear in life. 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:19.200 It's given me kind of it's my what if people 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:24.120 put my secret superpowers? The kids say, because I can 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:26.320 see it, because I'm so aware of it and myself. 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:29.080 I can see it in other people operating all the time, 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:31.000 and most of the time people are not even aware 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:33.199 they're operating from a place of fear, and so I 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:36.480 can see that they're operating from fear, and I go, Okay, 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:38.760 I know something about them now that they don't might 0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:41.000 not even know. And that really helps me navigate a 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:43.240 lot of situations. So in many ways, I'm very grateful 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:43.640 for it. 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:53.600 Tell me a little about your new book, Walking with Sam. 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:57.720 I find it interesting in so many ways. It's so 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:00.640 layered and beautiful. Talk to me a little bit about 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:02.639 the book. It's subject. 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:06.040 Why it's about us walking five hundred miles along the 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:09.119 Camino to Santiago, this old ancient pilgrimage route in Spain. 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:15.119 And I walked it twenty five years earlier alone or alone. Yeah, 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:17.280 it was after my early sort of success and all that, 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:19.960 and I guess I was kind of lost without really 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:22.440 even being aware that I was. And I heard about 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:24.320