1 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: What do you do when life doesn't go according to plan? 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: That moment you lose a job, or a loved one, 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: or even a piece of yourself. I'm Brookshields and this 4 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: is now What, a podcast about pivotal moments as told 5 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 1: by people who lived them. Each week, I sit down 6 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: with a guest to talk about the times they were 7 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: knocked off course and what they did to move forward. 8 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: Some stories are funny, others are gut wrenching, but all 9 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: are unapologetically human and remind us that every success and 10 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: every setback is accompanied by a choice, and that choice 11 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 1: answers one question, now what? So you have a nine. 12 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 2: Year old I do, and a sixteen year old sick. 13 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 2: My daughter Willow is sixteen and Sam is twenty one. 14 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 2: We're going to see Taylor Swift tomorrow night, so excited. 15 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 2: And she got me a very spangly silver, sparkly blazer 16 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 2: that I'm to wear at the concert. 17 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 1: Are you a swifty? Now? You're a swifty? 18 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 2: Well? I can say that. I hear a lot of 19 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 2: tailors Swift in the car, and I think she's kind 20 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 2: of great. But I yeah, I'm by proxy, I gilt 21 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 2: by association. 22 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: My guest today is an old friend and a familiar 23 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: face to anyone who came of age in the eighties. 24 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 1: Andrew McCarthy is a writer, director, actor, and famously a 25 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: member of the Brat Pack. He became a household name 26 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: thanks to films like Pretty in Pink and Weekend at 27 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: Bernie's before pivoting to a successful career as a TV 28 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: and travel writer and director. We got to know each 29 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: other well when we co starred on the show Lipstick Jungle, 30 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 1: and time and again I was impressed by his versatility, 31 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: charm and quiet intelligence. His hustle and flexibility are something 32 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: to be admired, and I can't wait for all of 33 00:01:57,560 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: you to get to know him a little better and 34 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: take a fun trip down memory link. Here is Andrew McCarthy. 35 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of how long we've known each other. 36 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 1: We've known each other quite a while. 37 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:15,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know why. 38 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: But it's interesting because I feel like I really just 39 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: got to know you for real life when you directed 40 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: Lipstick Jungle. When you acted in it, obviously, but when 41 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: I really got to experience you as a human being, 42 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: it was being directed by you. 43 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 2: I wonder what the difference was being directed by me? 44 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 2: Is just acting with me. 45 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:39,079 Speaker 1: It was different, I think because I'm really I really 46 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: do take one hat off and put another one on. 47 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 1: And I think it's the first time I really had 48 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: been directed by an actor. When did you become a director? 49 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: When did you first direct? 50 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 2: Go on that show for real Life? No, you had 51 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 2: I directed a short film before that that I made myself. 52 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: And the episode you directed was very well. There were 53 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: so many moving pieces to it, like That's what was 54 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: so interesting to me was it was a big episode, 55 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: meaning like lots of people and lots of activity, and 56 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: I remember thinking, damn, like he's so multi talented. It 57 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: always amazes me how people I'm gonna say, like us, 58 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: because I'm gonna put myself in your category who sort 59 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:29,519 Speaker 1: of become very well known and sort of extremely famous early, 60 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: how little people expect we're capable of. 61 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 2: Well, I would certainly put myself into your category, not 62 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 2: you into mine. But that's really true. That's really true, 63 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 2: And I imagine more so even for a woman clearly 64 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 2: and a beautiful woman, because those are two things that 65 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 2: they immediately you know, you're immediately thought of as having 66 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 2: less intelligence, you know still, but yes, for me, it 67 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 2: was more I was perceived as like, well he didn't 68 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 2: even not going to care, Like it was a show 69 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 2: up and think people other people are going to do 70 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 2: the work. You know. But what you and I both 71 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 2: have and what we learned very young, and one of 72 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 2: the things I always most admire about you is you 73 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 2: know how to work and go to work and like 74 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 2: be prepared and show up and go to work. And 75 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 2: that's you know a lot of people don't. 76 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: Where was that stigma for you? Like I was blue 77 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,119 Speaker 1: Lagoon or pretty where you were brad Packed? 78 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, the minute I was, the minute the brad 79 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:30,720 Speaker 2: Pack label was leveled, that was it yould at a 80 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 2: certain level of movie. That's the kind of actor you were, 81 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 2: And that was that and I was, you know, dismissed 82 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 2: as that. You know what's weird is that, of course, 83 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:41,679 Speaker 2: the brad Pack label has grown to be this iconically 84 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 2: affectionate term for a moment in pop culture, and me 85 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 2: and other members of the brad Pack and you to 86 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 2: a lesser degree because you're so you're your own unique 87 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 2: kind of thing, but you know, we are the avatars 88 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 2: of a certain generation. So it's you're now seen with 89 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 2: great affection all but the brad Pack was a very 90 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 2: derogatory term when it was first leveled. 91 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:05,359 Speaker 1: Our affection took about forty years to kick in on 92 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:05,840 Speaker 1: that line. 93 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I think so. I think so into a 94 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 2: very real I think people have I had affection for 95 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 2: the brat pack more quickly than I did. Why Why 96 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 2: Because I it was cast in aspersion. It was cast 97 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 2: as its way of going your brats and you're in 98 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 2: this pack and who wants to be seen as a 99 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 2: pack when you're a young actor and all that, And 100 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 2: it was just a labeling and a branding and you know, 101 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 2: all any of us ever want is to be seen, 102 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 2: right see who I am? And you know, as my 103 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 2: career was starting, is that, you know, I was like 104 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 2: wondrous and wonderful and exciting and thrilling, and then sudden 105 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 2: we're in the brat pack and it was just like 106 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 2: a I lost control of the narrative of my career 107 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 2: and in many ways my life. Because forty odd years later, 108 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 2: thirty five years later, in any introduction of me, brad 109 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 2: pack will still be mentioned in the first sentence, you know, 110 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 2: But I have come. I'm speaking about it with some 111 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 2: spleen now because that's what it was like back then. 112 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 2: But I have come to see. You know, when people 113 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 2: look at me and they come up to me now 114 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 2: about Putty in Pink or whatever, they have such a 115 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 2: glassy eyed look of affection in their eyes, and you 116 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 2: know they're talking about themselves that in their youth, and 117 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 2: that I've come to represent that to them. Took me decades, 118 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 2: but to realize what a beautiful thing that is. 119 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: Doing the documentary about it help you reclaim it. 120 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 2: Writing the book about it helped me to understand it. 121 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 2: So I wrote a book a couple of years ago 122 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 2: about that time infe because I'd never looked at it, 123 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 2: and I'd run from it, you know, and I just 124 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 2: wanted to get on with my whatever, and I thought, 125 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 2: I shaid, it's not going anywhere. Maybe you should try 126 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 2: to look at this seminal moment in your life and 127 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 2: actually see what went on there. And so, as you know, 128 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 2: when you write something, and you said, it helps you 129 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 2: understand it, and then you have to be careful when 130 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 2: you write something because then it becomes what happened. And 131 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 2: so I took pains to kind of go, wait, what 132 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 2: actually happened, as opposed to just the story said I'm 133 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 2: going to tell, Because we tell these stories that happened. 134 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and you tell stories, you've told them for decades, 135 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 2: and yet you have what really happened. And so when 136 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 2: I kind of looked at it and realized, and you know, 137 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:15,679 Speaker 2: I'm much more than the sum of my parts because 138 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 2: I'm in the member of the brat packet. Actually what 139 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 2: a you know, a wondrous kind of thing it was, 140 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 2: And that was a wondrous. It was a seismic change 141 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 2: in popular culture and in movie culture at that time. 142 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 2: We forget now, but movies weren't about young people till 143 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 2: you did, like, you know, to Animal House and you 144 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 2: did Blue Lagoon, and that started movies to be about 145 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 2: young people, you know what I mean. And then suddenly 146 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 2: are little movies come on, and then the Brat pack 147 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 2: comes along with John Hughes, where they're taking young people seriously, 148 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 2: and Hollywood has realized, suddenly, oh my god, these kids 149 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 2: are going five, six, seven times. Grown ups only go once. 150 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 2: Screw that, Let's make movies for kids. And Hollywood has 151 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 2: never recovered from that. 152 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: Are you able to look back and be proud of it? 153 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 2: Oh? I think they're awesome. I think they're fantastic. I'd 154 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 2: have great affection for them. Now. I think some of 155 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 2: the movies are wouldn't be made today, certainly, like you're 156 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 2: never going to make Mannequin today. 157 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: You're not gonna make pretty Baby today, and. 158 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 2: Not gonna make pretty Bigy. You know, You're not going 159 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 2: to make most of the movies. You're not going to 160 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 2: make saying almost fired today, Emilio is a stalker and 161 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 2: you know, and all those kinds of suff So you're 162 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 2: not going to make any of those movies or a 163 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 2: lot of the John Hughes movies either, because they're you know, 164 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 2: I have they're exploitative in certain ways, but I have 165 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 2: great affection for them now because I do think that 166 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 2: they you know. 167 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: It's a shame that it takes us this long to 168 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: have affection. I don't have the same kind of affection 169 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:37,319 Speaker 1: because the thing that I never got to do was 170 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: grow as a talent. And I will say that what 171 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:44,959 Speaker 1: I when I look at your films and any of 172 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: the ones you just mentioned, I remember and I was 173 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: this was I was there at the time. I remember 174 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: watching those movies and thinking, God, those people got to 175 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: actually really act, and they got to grow and they 176 00:08:59,200 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: got to be directed. 177 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 2: Well, Brooke, I mean that's I was running around with 178 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 2: a mannequin and dragging a dead body around. I don't 179 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 2: know how much acting I was, but I think. 180 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: That's what It's harder to do that kind of comedy. 181 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: It's harder. I mean I was walking around hair on 182 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: my boobs, like with a squeaky voice, not not accessing 183 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: any emotion. 184 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 2: Like yeah, I mean, you know, one of the amazing 185 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 2: things about you is that you know you were wildly 186 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 2: exploited in this way, and yet you just sort of 187 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 2: have owned your life, and you know, so I thought 188 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 2: it was in such respect for that. But you know, 189 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 2: maybe you tell me this is a little pop psychologizing, 190 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 2: but you know that's your thing, that's your is you, 191 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 2: Like I didn't get a chance to go. I remember 192 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 2: when I were acting with you, when we were on 193 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 2: that show together, all you wanted to do was really 194 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 2: dig into the work and like be seen as as 195 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 2: an actor and like someone who really enjoyed the work 196 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,199 Speaker 2: and was interested in doing good work and stuff. And 197 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 2: whether that wasn't asked of you or we each have 198 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 2: our thing of what we have a lens through which 199 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 2: we look at the world, and like when I was younger, 200 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 2: I looked at the world I'm not smart, and so 201 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 2: that's how I perceived other people perceived me in a 202 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 2: certain way. 203 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: Why why did you say that? 204 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 2: Oh, because I was terrible at school. 205 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 1: Which which is analogous to you. I'm not smart. 206 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,079 Speaker 2: Yes, And when you're growing up and you're in school 207 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 2: schools for smart people, you don't do well in school, 208 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,199 Speaker 2: you're not smart. Obviously that's incorrect. 209 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: But that's why you're so much smarter than ninety nine 210 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 1: percent of the people like that. 211 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 2: Nobody, but like, I'm the same thing about you, Like 212 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 2: you do know how to work, and you do. But 213 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 2: because this is a perception we get early about ourselves 214 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 2: where it's you know, body dysmorphy or whatever the world is, 215 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 2: you know it? Or life? Yeah, you know what I mean. 216 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 2: And I think we get in a lot of trouble 217 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 2: when we put on those pair of glasses and apply 218 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,439 Speaker 2: them universally in our lives, because they don't really apply. 219 00:10:55,920 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: I've recently just done Pretty Baby, the documentary. Right, I 220 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: didn't produce it, I didn't direct it. I just was 221 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: in it. But what's been interesting to me is I 222 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 1: didn't know how people were going to respond to it, 223 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: but people have been coming away from it with a 224 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: broader understanding of actually who I am. Is there something 225 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,719 Speaker 1: that you wish people really heard and knew about you? 226 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 2: Well, maybe it's just because I've I turned sixty this year, 227 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:28,719 Speaker 2: and so that's really kind of threw me for a 228 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 2: loop for a while. I'd never blinked about my age, 229 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 2: you know, forty fifty and over blinked in six. I 230 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 2: was like, Wow, it's the beginning of being old, and 231 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 2: particularly someone like who's famous for being young. Now you're like, 232 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 2: what happened to the middle Anyway, I kind of found 233 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:44,959 Speaker 2: myself I don't really care. I don't really need you 234 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 2: want to know anything. I want to be successful only 235 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 2: in the sense that just for ego wise, because that 236 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,559 Speaker 2: feels good for eight minutes. But I don't really think 237 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:58,959 Speaker 2: of myself as even having a career in any way anymore. 238 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 2: I just wanted things to be successful so that the 239 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 2: next thing that I want to do i'm allowed to 240 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 2: do more easily. I've sort of given up on perception 241 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 2: and how I'm received. 242 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 1: Isn't that freedom, though? Like, isn't it? 243 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 2: Oh? It feels great, it feels I wish. 244 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: We didn't have to get to sixty to we didn't 245 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: have to but maybe that's the point of all of it. 246 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 2: Well, and suddenly much more spacious. It's a lot more spacious, 247 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:25,079 Speaker 2: for sure. And you know there's something about that drive 248 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 2: and ambition younger that can be useful. 249 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: But also you know you've you've done a thing that 250 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 1: I think I did by default. I don't know if 251 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: if you planned it, but the versatility of your talent. 252 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 1: Yes you're an actor, Yes you're a director, you're a writer, 253 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 1: but you keep adding to your list of fruition within 254 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 1: your talent. You went to NYU, Okay, you went to 255 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: study theater. You got kicked out. I don't know why. 256 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 1: Why'd you get kicked out? 257 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 2: Because I didn't go to my classes? 258 00:12:57,559 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: You know what that it's interesting that they didn't just 259 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: keep taking your tuition. 260 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 2: Well they would have. After I did my first movie. 261 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 2: They kicked me out, and I did my first movie, 262 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 2: and then they invited me back and I could if 263 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 2: I paid the tuition, I could use that for independent study. 264 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:11,959 Speaker 1: And I said, fuck they did they give you an honorary. 265 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 2: Degree, not yet. But like you though, Brooke, all of that, 266 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 2: all of that has come by necessity in a certain way, 267 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 2: because I stopped being successful as an actor, you know, 268 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 2: brat pack stuff sort of and then diminishing returns, and 269 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 2: I had personally, you know, I drank too much. It 270 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 2: took me a while to sort that problem out, and 271 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 2: when I could have came out of that fog, I 272 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 2: was then chasing like acting, and I realized, oh, this 273 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 2: is heartbreaking. I can't be doing this. So I stumbled 274 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 2: into travel writing. So I embraced that fully and it 275 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 2: was a real creative rebirth for me. And then that 276 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 2: led to books. And then when I realized, you know, 277 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 2: you can't really make enough money travel writing, so I 278 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 2: got to go back, Oh, well, I'll start directing. And 279 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 2: I stumbled into directing and realized I had an aptitude 280 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 2: for it. 281 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: So it's not a stumbling. And I want to kind 282 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: of just stop you there for a second, because if 283 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: you weren't highly intelligent, you might have gotten a job, 284 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: but you wouldn't have been able to get another one 285 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: and keep going with it. Right, So there's a humility 286 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: that we I'm going to say, we try to have 287 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: by saying, oh, it just we stumbled and we just reacted. 288 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 2: Well when I say stumbled, no, you're right. There was 289 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 2: absolute clear intent on both those things. I learned a 290 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 2: lot from the first time when I became. When I 291 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 2: was a young actor, I had no I just knew 292 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 2: I wanted to do that, and I didn't know anything, 293 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 2: and stuff happened, and it was like stuff happened to me, 294 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 2: and then the brack pack happened to me. And so 295 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 2: when I started writing and wanting to be a travel writer, 296 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 2: I was very careful how I curated it and how 297 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 2: I approached people, like no one knew I was the 298 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 2: broadpack actor being a travel writer, because you know, I 299 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 2: did it. Everything in that world is done by email, 300 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 2: so I would just email people. And when when I 301 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 2: was finally outed for being, oh, the actor, I think 302 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 2: he's a travel writer. By then I'd already written, you 303 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 2: use your name. Yeah, but I mean there's lots of whatever. 304 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 2: Nobody's thinking these kind of things. But by the time 305 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 2: I was out it, I'd already written for the New 306 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 2: York Times and National Geographic Travel and The Atlantic and so. 307 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 2: And I was very careful to curate to write for 308 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 2: those outlets so that when I am outed, they can't 309 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 2: easily dismiss me. 310 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: Do you like one more than the other? 311 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 2: Well? I had an act in about ten fifteen years 312 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 2: when I was just on a or ten years anyway, 313 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 2: on a show last season, and I really enjoyed acting. 314 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 2: It was really you know, it was like breathing to me. 315 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 2: We've been doing it since we're children, you know, So 316 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 2: I really located myself in that. But you know, I 317 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 2: do like sitting in a room alone. I have to say, 318 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 2: is something about that that I really enjoy as long 319 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 2: as I have something that's going on. 320 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 1: I don't think people know that about you when I 321 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: think of you, when someone says you to me, I'm like, 322 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: very intellectual and serious, very analytical, but in the most 323 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 1: beautiful way. 324 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 2: Well you see me, you know. But see, that's one 325 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 2: of the things, Brooke, because you were not seen. You're 326 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 2: very active in your desire to see other people. And 327 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 2: I think that's a great gift because that's all any 328 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 2: of us really want in the world is to be seen. 329 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 2: And you were clearly not seen for who you are, 330 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 2: and so you do that. 331 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: Why do you think you drank so much? 332 00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 2: Because I'm an alcoholic, you know. I mean, I don't 333 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 2: believe alcoholism is a reaction to anything else, but I 334 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 2: you know, I always say I drank better vodka because 335 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 2: I was in the movies, but the movie being successful 336 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 2: and the movies did not make me an alcoholic and 337 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 2: being too young for success and all that crap. 338 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: What did it do though? What did you like about it? 339 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 2: It relieved my fear for a while. 340 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: And what was the fear about? Fear of what? 341 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 2: I don't know. I was just sort of a fearful person. 342 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 2: I was afraid of. You know, what do you got? 343 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 2: Fear is also just sort of feeds on itself. So 344 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 2: fear just sort of is a a thing that sort 345 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 2: of sits right in front of something. So anything you 346 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 2: funnel through it, it comes out with fear on it 347 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 2: because it's sitting in front of you. You know. 348 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: Was that from when you were a little kid? 349 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 2: Yeahah? 350 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: Does it? Parents? Is it? I don't know. 351 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 2: As a parent, I don't know. I was I was 352 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 2: terrified of my father, But was it because of him? 353 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 2: I don't, you know, I don't know. 354 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: I'm always interested in, like again, nature nurture, but the 355 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: fear my Okay, I'll share something. My fear was obviously 356 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: never being good enough. But that's because I had an 357 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: in satiable mother and her what she was insatiable for 358 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: and about and whatever was love. So like with my father, 359 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 1: I know he loved me, but like I never felt 360 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: good enough for him, But not because of anything he did, 361 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 1: just because the image of who my father was to 362 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: me was so much larger than life, and I loved 363 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: him so much, but I just always felt something wasn't 364 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 1: right with right enough with me. But I'm not a guy, 365 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: and I'm curious about men and their relationships with their father. 366 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 2: Oh, I just think I was. I had a very 367 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 2: highly oversensitized temperament, and I always felt my dad didn't 368 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 2: like me. Actually I thought, well, I think if you 369 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 2: were to pop psychoanalyzed it in a way, it would 370 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 2: be my mother's showered affection on me, and my father 371 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 2: was jealous, and so he didn't like me, and so 372 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 2: I was then frightened of him, so fear just I 373 00:17:57,680 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 2: don't know. He was just in a company accompanied me 374 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 2: from very as long as I know, So I don't 375 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 2: where it came from. I don't know. It doesn't even matter, 376 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 2: you know why. I'm kind of relieved to see that 377 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 2: my kids don't seem to have it. I know how 378 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 2: that happen, and that's I'm glad for them. But although 379 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 2: I have to say having a lot of fear in life. 380 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 2: It's given me kind of it's my what if people 381 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 2: put my secret superpowers? The kids say, because I can 382 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 2: see it, because I'm so aware of it and myself. 383 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 2: I can see it in other people operating all the time, 384 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 2: and most of the time people are not even aware 385 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,199 Speaker 2: they're operating from a place of fear, and so I 386 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 2: can see that they're operating from fear, and I go, Okay, 387 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 2: I know something about them now that they don't might 388 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 2: not even know. And that really helps me navigate a 389 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 2: lot of situations. So in many ways, I'm very grateful 390 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:43,640 Speaker 2: for it. 391 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: Tell me a little about your new book, Walking with Sam. 392 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: I find it interesting in so many ways. It's so 393 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 1: layered and beautiful. Talk to me a little bit about 394 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:02,639 Speaker 1: the book. It's subject. 395 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 2: Why it's about us walking five hundred miles along the 396 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 2: Camino to Santiago, this old ancient pilgrimage route in Spain. 397 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 2: And I walked it twenty five years earlier alone or alone. Yeah, 398 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 2: it was after my early sort of success and all that, 399 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 2: and I guess I was kind of lost without really 400 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 2: even being aware that I was. And I heard about 401 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 2: the Camino, I read about it, and suddenly I just said, 402 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 2: I got to do that, and I went and I 403 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 2: did it, and I hated it until I had like 404 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 2: this breakdown in a field of wheak, and it was 405 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 2: I had one of these kind of white light experiences. 406 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 2: We're just talking about fear, and I became aware how 407 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 2: strong fear was in my life. And it was the 408 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 2: first time I was aware of its presence in my life. 409 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 2: Because it had been so ever present in my life, 410 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 2: I was afraid. I was relieved of it for this 411 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 2: moment and I felt like myself fully for the first time. 412 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 2: And that changed my life. And fear, of course, is 413 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 2: very cunning. It doesn't just go way once you identify it, 414 00:19:57,359 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 2: but at least it can never have the blind hold 415 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 2: it had on you before that. So that changed one. 416 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:03,479 Speaker 2: So I always wanted to go back to Spain and 417 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 2: do that walk again. And as my son was becoming 418 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:08,959 Speaker 2: a man, and I go back to go out into 419 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 2: the world. And I also should say when I we 420 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,400 Speaker 2: were talking about my dad, I left home at seventeen 421 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 2: and I never really had a relationship with him for 422 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 2: the rest of his life until we reconciled when he 423 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 2: was dying, which was a beautiful thing, but we didn't 424 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 2: have any relationship, and I didn't want that with my kids. 425 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: And this is your older son. 426 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 2: My oldest son. Yeah, so he was nineteen at the time. 427 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: Who is an actor? 428 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's on a Circle Dead to me on Netflix. 429 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 2: He's an actor, Yeah, and a lovely actor. 430 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: What was his reaction to both the book and the experience? 431 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 2: Well, day two he said, Dad, what's the point of 432 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 2: this fucking walk? 433 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: And I kindly agree with him, but now I got it. 434 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:48,880 Speaker 2: On the last day he said, Dad, that's the only 435 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 2: ten out of ten thing I've ever done in my life. 436 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 1: What did you say to him when he asked you 437 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: that question. 438 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:56,919 Speaker 2: I was smart enough not to say anything. You know, 439 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 2: I had the ultimate luxury your parent gets with an 440 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:00,919 Speaker 2: that old child, which was time. I didn't need to 441 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 2: be wise and have answers and be smart and be 442 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 2: full of advice. I could just walk and listen to him, 443 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 2: really create space for him. 444 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: Did you know you were going to write the book 445 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:12,160 Speaker 1: as you were walking. 446 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 2: Well, being a travel writer, you know you're always going 447 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 2: to write about pretty much everywhere you go at at 448 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 2: some point in some form. So I was keeping notes 449 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 2: of the sort, and then about halfway in the walk 450 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 2: goes for five hundred miles to the Santiago de Compostella, 451 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 2: which is fifty miles from the sea, and that's where 452 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 2: the pilgrimage ends. But a lot of people continue walking 453 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 2: those last fifty miles to the ocean. They just feel 454 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 2: compelled to make that walk. I did not, and I 455 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 2: had no desire to do that either time. And Sam said, 456 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 2: I'm the place is called finished theare. So Sam said 457 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 2: he was going to walk to finishtare. He just wanted 458 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 2: to keep going. It was like he was, you know, 459 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 2: just go beyond. So the notion of him going beyond 460 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 2: my accomplishments in the metaphor, the communal abound. Everything on 461 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,439 Speaker 2: the communal to Santiago's a metaphor. So the idea that 462 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 2: he was going to go beyond my accomplishments, which is 463 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 2: what is hardwired in every parent, is that our children 464 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 2: go beyond us, right, So, and he was going to 465 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 2: go beyond me. I just thought, oh my god, there's 466 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 2: a book in there. 467 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: Were you only trying because you said I didn't want 468 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,120 Speaker 1: to have the same relationship with my son my father? 469 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:25,640 Speaker 1: Was there anything else that you any other expectations you 470 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 1: possibly put onto doing no walk. 471 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 2: No, I just want I knew, having had experience with it, 472 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 2: having walked it and had a life changing experience. I 473 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 2: knew if you just keep them walking and keep walking 474 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,439 Speaker 2: beside him, what needs to happen will happen, you know. 475 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 2: So I did not have any expectations of wanting the 476 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 2: relationship to become this. All I wanted was for us 477 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 2: to see each other like we were talking about, as 478 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,640 Speaker 2: adults and as human beings, as opposed to parent child dynamic. 479 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 1: Where did this come in his career? 480 00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, he'd been I think he had done two seasons 481 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 2: of dead time me by that before the third one, 482 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 2: and I think it's solidified in him a desire to act. 483 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: Did you have reservations about that? 484 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 2: Were you him acting? Yeah? My daughter has also been 485 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 2: on Broadway number of times, So I like, the last 486 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 2: thing you ever want is your kids to become an 487 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 2: actor if you're an actor, right at all? 488 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 1: Or how about a model at all? I trumped you 489 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 1: with that one even worse? 490 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly so. But you know, acting saved my life 491 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,239 Speaker 2: when I was fifteen, So who am I to say? So? 492 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 2: You know, if you're a teenager, you have to find something. 493 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 1: Are you going to take a trip with any of 494 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 1: your other children. 495 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 2: Yeah. I just came back from Botswana with my nine 496 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 2: year old Rowan. I was doing a story for a 497 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 2: magazine and so we went on a safari type thing together. 498 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 2: So that was kind of great. Although we were looking 499 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,919 Speaker 2: at the lions one day, you know, you drive up 500 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:49,399 Speaker 2: in the jeep and you're looking at these lines and 501 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,679 Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my god, amazing and these and then 502 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,400 Speaker 2: he just leans on his dad, I got a poop, 503 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,639 Speaker 2: Like Okay, so I go, can we pull away from 504 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:00,199 Speaker 2: the lines a little bit? So we go and you know, 505 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 2: I go, or we got to dig a hole. You're 506 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 2: going to dig a hole? He said, what go? Yeah, 507 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 2: I got to dig a hole and poop the ground. 508 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,360 Speaker 2: And so any way we do, and like that night 509 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 2: we come back and he's facetiming his mom and she's like, 510 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,360 Speaker 2: how are the lions and the elephants? And he's like, mom, 511 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,879 Speaker 2: I pop around. You know, so this is this is 512 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:16,360 Speaker 2: the big deal. 513 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: Do you have a little bag with the paper? Like, 514 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: because you got to put the paper in a bag 515 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: unless it's biodegradable, which you've got to hope that. 516 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 2: We just went home and took a. We just went 517 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 2: home and took a shower. 518 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: I wanted to go deep on the poop. When I 519 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 1: pitched this show see where I hired, I called it 520 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: now What because I said, listen, every single person has 521 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 1: now what moments in their life where they're all of 522 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 1: a sudden, like, fuck, does anyone now what moments stick 523 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 1: out in your life? 524 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 2: She says? Every morning? 525 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: Now what do I do? I've just wait awakened. 526 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I mean I kind of you know that 527 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 2: I feel I've always I felt like that all the 528 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 2: time my whole life, you know what I mean. That's 529 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 2: one of the things that comes to being a freelancer too. 530 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,120 Speaker 2: You know, I've had You've had, you know, hundreds of jobs. 531 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,159 Speaker 2: They're like, okay, now what now? What do we do? 532 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 2: And although every now what I've ever had has always 533 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 2: spurred me to something more interesting, you know, it's always 534 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 2: a frightened because I'm so used to fear. I think 535 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 2: that now what is always filled with dread and fear, 536 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 2: and so I've just come to be so used to 537 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 2: that feeling that I don't mind it that much because 538 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 2: it's just this normal state, I mean, and it has 539 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 2: always led to like I say, oh, I can't do 540 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 2: that anymore. Okay, Now what what do I do now? Okay? 541 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 2: I became a traveler and okay that doesn't pay enough. Okay, 542 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:41,400 Speaker 2: now what Okay, So I guess I'll become direct Okay, 543 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 2: that's not happening now, Okay, I guess I'm going to 544 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,199 Speaker 2: make this documentary because okay, and you know, you just 545 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 2: sort of and all those obstacles and things that precede 546 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 2: and now what are you know, always seen as an 547 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,639 Speaker 2: oh shit, but then they you look back and go, oh, 548 00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 2: thank god exactly. 549 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:04,919 Speaker 1: I mean, you're such an inspiration on so many levels, 550 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 1: and I also feel akin to you just because that's 551 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: the way I've lived my life. You know that the 552 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 1: documentary is it finished? Is it? 553 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 2: You know? I'm in the process of sort of finishing it, 554 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 2: in the process of finishing it, so hopefully in the 555 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 2: fall it'll come out. 556 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,400 Speaker 1: Was there anything that surprised you about because you recently 557 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: just talked to me, By the way, I was supposed 558 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: to have lunch with her today and you fucked that 559 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: up because I can't. I can't. I can't be sitting 560 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: on a couch with Ali and de me, which is 561 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: where I was invited. Is there anything about those conversations that. 562 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 2: Would be much that would have been much better? 563 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 1: We should have done the podcast from Allie's couch? Are 564 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 1: you so? Where were you're talking? 565 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 2: All of I talked to most of them, and well, 566 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 2: I've talked to all of the most of them have 567 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 2: participated a couple as still being a little you know, 568 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 2: cagey about it. 569 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: But anything that surprised you. 570 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 2: It surprised me how much affection we all had for 571 00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 2: each other because we didn't back in the day. You know, 572 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,439 Speaker 2: we're young and scared and whatever was going on. But 573 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 2: I mean, just how much like I hadn't seen Robin 574 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 2: thirty thirty five years, same with Amelia, and just like 575 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,679 Speaker 2: how much affection I had for him and four more 576 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 2: then our youth and like to just sort of an 577 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 2: understanding that we have. I don't know them at all, 578 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,119 Speaker 2: and yet I know them deeply because we both we 579 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 2: all went through kind of a very similar thing. So yeah, 580 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 2: that was a really lovely feeling to sort of just 581 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 2: connect with it and then connect with them connected me 582 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:30,679 Speaker 2: to my own youth, and I had count we had 583 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 2: so much more affection for my youth, which led me 584 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 2: to then have more affection for myself at that time 585 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 2: in those movies and all that. So it's been very 586 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 2: lovely experience. 587 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 1: One last question, what is your proudest moment from the 588 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: walk with your son and something that you'll always remember. 589 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 2: Well, when he was marching to finish stare after at 590 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:54,640 Speaker 2: the end there, I took a taxi out to meet him. 591 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,360 Speaker 2: And it's a little it's a little daunting to realize 592 00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 2: you can take cover a half hour in a car 593 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 2: what it took you through days the walk. But I 594 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 2: went out to meet him and just as he came 595 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 2: marching up the hill with his shirt off, on his 596 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,399 Speaker 2: arms pumping and just sweat ford and the grin on 597 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 2: his face, to just stand there and receive him, you know, 598 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 2: and that he allowed me to receive him. And that 599 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 2: was a beautiful moment. 600 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 1: That was the brilliant Andrew McCarthy. If you want to 601 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: hear more about his incredible trip with a son, go 602 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 1: pick up a copy of his new memoir Walking with Sam. 603 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: That's it for us today, Talk to you next week. 604 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:37,720 Speaker 2: Now. 605 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: What with Burke Shields is a production of iHeartRadio. Our 606 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: lead producer and wonderful showrunner is Julia Weaver. Additional research 607 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: and editing by Darby Masters and Abu zafar Our. Executive 608 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: producer is Christina Everett. The show is mixed by Baheed Fraser.