Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's
Speaker 2: chalk and Jerry's here too, and this is stuff you
Speaker 2: should know, everybody.
Speaker 1: That's right, we're talking about one of the two things
Speaker 1: switzerm One is known for.
Speaker 2: What it's not cheese Okay, then chocolate, that's true. Three
Speaker 2: things okay, cuckoo clocks, four things, beautiful mountains, five things.
Speaker 1: Beautiful people, roasty, six things, seven things. All right, let's
Speaker 1: just cut to the chase. Then there's a lot to Switzerland, everybody.
Speaker 1: And this is just one of myriad things we could
Speaker 1: talk about, and that is Swiss neutrality. And I think
Speaker 1: this came to mind because of the recent talks between
Speaker 1: the United States and Iran and a new Switzerland had
Speaker 1: a role to play there, and I'm.
Speaker 3: Like, what the heck is up with that country?
Speaker 2: Did you say that out loud?
Speaker 3: I think I did, And Ruby was like, what country did?
Speaker 2: It's a good idea, Chuck. I had no idea about this,
Speaker 2: and I'm not sure if I ever would have thought
Speaker 2: of doing one on this, but it's actually pretty interesting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and thanks to Olivia. But I now understand it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we should say that. Right before we started recording,
Speaker 2: Jerry announced that she is the Switzerland of stuff. You
Speaker 2: should know.
Speaker 3: Jerry likes to think she is.
Speaker 2: Well, then who would be the Switzerland?
Speaker 3: We have no Switzerland.
Speaker 2: Okay, who are you?
Speaker 3: Uh? I don't know.
Speaker 2: I'm a mix of Turkmenistan and Denmark. Okay, all right, great,
Speaker 2: And that's just where we're going to leave this, because
Speaker 2: let's get back to talking about Switzerland, which is, like
Speaker 2: you said, known for many things, and this neutrality thing
Speaker 2: I had no idea, but it is in stark contrast
Speaker 2: to how Switzerland used to be during the Middle Ages
Speaker 2: or medieval times, if you're one of those people who
Speaker 2: goes to medieval times.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know we should point out too, Switzerland's
Speaker 1: not the only neutral country. I think Livia found twenty
Speaker 1: to twenty five basically neutral countries around the world. But
Speaker 1: Switzerland it's a real like when you think of neutral countries,
Speaker 1: I think most people would say Switzerland because they've taken
Speaker 1: not just neutrality as a stance, but like a really
Speaker 1: active neutrality and like, hey, come and settle your warring
Speaker 1: disputes here in our friendly confines, or your financial disputes
Speaker 1: and our friendly confines.
Speaker 2: Yeah. As a matter of fact, Switzerland is the only
Speaker 2: country that comes to mind when I think of neutrality.
Speaker 2: I had honestly no idea that other countries were officially neutral. Yeah,
Speaker 2: like Ireland is Did you know that?
Speaker 3: No, but I believe it.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, at any rate, Yes, they are the standard,
Speaker 2: the gold standard, the Nazi gold state of neutral countries. So,
Speaker 2: like I said, the whole thing kind of, I think
Speaker 2: it was officially neutral as of like the eighteen teens.
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, and then eighteen fifty one, I think when
Speaker 1: they formerly became a country. But right, but yeah, but
Speaker 1: you promised talk to the Middle Ages. And it is
Speaker 1: interesting that we can go back to the thirteenth century
Speaker 1: to kind of see the beginnings of this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, apparently this is where William Tell comes from too.
Speaker 2: Did you know that? No? I know shamefully little about
Speaker 2: William Tell's I was reading I think it's swiss info
Speaker 2: ch They're like the English speaking outlet for Switzerland, and
Speaker 2: this article this guy was writing. He's like, we all
Speaker 2: know the story of William Tell, blah blah blah, And
Speaker 2: I was like, actually, I don't know anything that you
Speaker 2: just mentioned.
Speaker 1: Yeah, agreed. He has a heck of an overture, that's
Speaker 1: all I know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, apparently so I here in the United States, everybody,
Speaker 2: we're that William Tell shot the apple off of his
Speaker 2: kid's head to show off like his skills. Apparently he
Speaker 2: was forced to do that by some evil, evil Austrian
Speaker 2: like overlords who had taken over Switzerland. And William Tell's
Speaker 2: actually a resistance fighter who helped Switzerland overthrow those Austrian overlords. Fantastic,
Speaker 2: but he comes out of this time, right. So, Switzerland,
Speaker 2: like you said, until the eighteen fifties or sixties, was
Speaker 2: a confederation. It's still known as the Swiss Confederation of Cantons,
Speaker 2: which would be like states, provinces, maybe counties, but they're independent,
Speaker 2: little municipalities that all together form Switzerland or the Swiss Confederation.
Speaker 2: And that's where the whole thing starts. Back in twelve
Speaker 2: ninety one, there was an alliance between three of these cantons.
Speaker 2: Now there's like twenty five Uri, Schwitz, Schweits maybe and
Speaker 2: untor Walden Valden Walden, yeah, yeah, and they formed the
Speaker 2: valds Thought Alliance.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Stett Stett Voldstetta Alliance.
Speaker 1: I would say, I think I don't know if the
Speaker 1: East pronounce well, I know that that gives you a
Speaker 1: certain thrill, but I think the umlaut would make it
Speaker 1: a stett stett.
Speaker 2: Say it again, say the whole thing.
Speaker 1: The Woldschtez Alliance. These were basically free peasants at the time,
Speaker 1: and they you know, partially the reason this all goes
Speaker 1: down is because of their location in the Alps, kind
Speaker 1: of isolated from a lot of Europe. And so they
Speaker 1: were isolated, these free peasants from a lot of the.
Speaker 3: Feudal hierarchies all over Europe.
Speaker 1: And they were like in a good like geographic position
Speaker 1: because they were there in those mountain passes with Italy
Speaker 1: to the south and you know German speaking people's to
Speaker 1: the north, and so they were there as like hey,
Speaker 1: we're kind of here in the middle. So that kind
Speaker 1: of started the whole thing of like, hey, everyone wants
Speaker 1: to get along with them because they needed them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they've they've from time to time served as a
Speaker 2: very useful buffer which has helped other outside nations support
Speaker 2: their bid for neutrality right and just to be left alone. Yeah,
Speaker 2: at the same time, that isolation, like you said, from
Speaker 2: time to time some of their neighbors would break it
Speaker 2: and try to basically take over Switzerland and in wood
Speaker 2: to varying successes from time to time. Like I said,
Speaker 2: but the isolation and the fact that they were mostly
Speaker 2: independent made Switzerland or still to this day, that gave
Speaker 2: them this fiercely independent streak as a nation that they
Speaker 2: see themselves as like it's a different thing. They're separate thing.
Speaker 2: They're nothing like a typical nation whatsoever. They're their own thing.
Speaker 2: And one of the big things, you can almost call
Speaker 2: it a brand, is their neutrality.
Speaker 3: That's right.
Speaker 1: And when they formed that Bulstead Alliance, it wasn't the
Speaker 1: biggest deal because that that had always kind of been
Speaker 1: the deal with them, So it was really just renewing
Speaker 1: these ties that had already been around for a long time.
Speaker 1: But everyone later on would say, oh, actually, that's kind
Speaker 1: of when Switzerland started coming together as what would later
Speaker 1: be a country. Yeah, And then more cantons came aboard,
Speaker 1: the alliance got a little bigger and started getting referred
Speaker 1: to as the old Swiss Confederation the new one that
Speaker 1: we have now, and that's when they started becoming like
Speaker 1: a real kind of piece of the military puzzle that
Speaker 1: was going on all around them.
Speaker 2: I'm very I'm certain when back in the thirteenth century
Speaker 2: they were confused when people called it the Old Swiss
Speaker 2: Confederation because it was present to them.
Speaker 3: They're like, what are you talking about.
Speaker 2: So it was around this time that the Swiss actually
Speaker 2: became militarily mighty. The Swiss actually were known for their
Speaker 2: warlike tendencies and their excellent fighting skills, so much so
Speaker 2: that as they kind of grew and started to take
Speaker 2: part in European wars during the medieval era. In the
Speaker 2: very very early modern era, apparently Niccolomachiavelli referred to them
Speaker 2: as the new Romans, this conquering group of incredibly well
Speaker 2: trained fighters that were willing to take on the world. Essentially,
Speaker 2: that's that was the image of Switzerland. It's like the
Speaker 2: total opposite of how we viewed Switzerland.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: And you know, they had some pretty decent military upsets
Speaker 1: leading up to the beginning of the sixteenth century, and
Speaker 1: that's when they started to kind of move away from
Speaker 1: that idea because there were some really big countries and
Speaker 1: countries getting together and like forming larger alliances around them,
Speaker 1: and they were, you know, they were still even though
Speaker 1: they had some military might, they realized they were probably
Speaker 1: smallish compared to other places that were popping up around them, sure,
Speaker 1: notably the Holy Roman Empire. Of course, France, Spain and
Speaker 1: Italy kind of all over the place over there trying
Speaker 1: to get at least control in the sixteenth century of
Speaker 1: the Duchy of Milan, and that's when the Swiss came
Speaker 1: out and they're like, hey, you know, the different cantons
Speaker 1: had different ideas on who they should support, which would
Speaker 1: kind of become a recurring theme of like who they
Speaker 1: should have allegiance to and not necessarily agreeing. So maybe
Speaker 1: remaining neutral was the best path of least resistance, I guess.
Speaker 1: But in this case, at the time, they started out
Speaker 1: backing France, then switched to the Italians, and then at
Speaker 1: the Battle of Mariniano in fifteen fifteen, the French kind
Speaker 1: of kicked their butts, the French and Venetians, and they
Speaker 1: were like, all right, we lost ten thousand infantry people,
Speaker 1: so like, maybe we need to really rethink putting our
Speaker 1: eggs in baskets of other countries.
Speaker 2: Yeah, ten thousand was half of the entire Swiss military
Speaker 2: force was killed at this one battle. So yeah, It
Speaker 2: was a really big deal, so much so that they
Speaker 2: were like, yeah, this whole warlike thing is not really
Speaker 2: working out all of a sudden, let's explore the idea
Speaker 2: of being neutral. And it wasn't just that, but from
Speaker 2: everything I've seen, that battle was a decisive turning point
Speaker 2: for the mentality among the Swiss about, you know, taking
Speaker 2: part in European wars. But there were other things that
Speaker 2: kind of contributed to that decision. One was the Protestant Reformation,
Speaker 2: because different cantons in different parts of the country supported
Speaker 2: or were Protestant or were Catholic, right, Yeah, And that's
Speaker 2: a very sticky situation when you're trying to keep these
Speaker 2: cantons part of a confederation. Right, there's no central government
Speaker 2: that's telling the cantons, no, you can't do this, No
Speaker 2: you can't do that. They're a confederation essentially, so they're
Speaker 2: all still quite independent, but they're all still also Swiss.
Speaker 2: So that in and of itself meant like, how can
Speaker 2: you participate in European wars when half of your cantons
Speaker 2: want to go to war with one another?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: You know, in the wars out and the rest of
Speaker 2: Europe are about are between Protestants and Catholics like, you
Speaker 2: just can't do that. So the Swiss said, you know what,
Speaker 2: let's just stay neutral. And this is a good example
Speaker 2: of how being neutral has literally kept the country together
Speaker 2: many times over the years, Like where they're like, our differences,
Speaker 2: as our differences of opinion are too great right now
Speaker 2: among the Cans, so we're just going to not have
Speaker 2: an opinion officially as a country.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1: Another thing that helped was they got a pretty sweet
Speaker 1: financial deal out of the end of the conflict with
Speaker 1: France in fifteen sixteen. That peace treaty gave them access
Speaker 1: to French markets. They had I think internally they were like,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if they noticed, but we can do
Speaker 1: business with France now, and we could already do business
Speaker 1: business with other people, So let's just keep flying under
Speaker 1: the radar here financially speaking, because they've got the best
Speaker 1: of both worlds. So they had no one to like
Speaker 1: financial incidentive to bust up. Almost said bust that move,
Speaker 1: but that would be the right term.
Speaker 2: Ial think bus a move on French markets. Yeah, sure, okay, yeah,
Speaker 2: so yes, this is where their business image also started
Speaker 2: to Yeah, this is where the three piece suit was
Speaker 2: invented in the peace treaty between France and Europe in
Speaker 2: fifteen sixteen.
Speaker 3: And let's see, here's a great example. I have no
Speaker 3: idea whether to believe you or not. At this point
Speaker 3: in my life.
Speaker 2: I don't know whether to believe me or not.
Speaker 3: Even at least were aligned.
Speaker 2: So this is a I don't know if you're picking
Speaker 2: up on this, chuck. This is a time of frequent
Speaker 2: wars across Europe. And that's the problem. When you put
Speaker 2: authoritarian despots in charge with limitless riches. They the elites
Speaker 2: wanted to compete among themselves because they want to have
Speaker 2: the biggest castle, or I want to have the most
Speaker 2: people at my command. Yeah, I want to torture the
Speaker 2: most people, right, And they start competing with each other
Speaker 2: and they send their own people off to war with
Speaker 2: one another. It's a great lesson today. It was something
Speaker 2: to learn from, and it happened a lot during this era.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there were a lot of threats to
Speaker 1: kind of break up this neutrality. The Thirty Years War
Speaker 1: was a big one in sixteen eighteen because again they
Speaker 1: were divided sympathies I guess within those cantons, because what
Speaker 1: you talked about, but religion for the most part, and
Speaker 1: if you got involved in that war as Switzerland, that
Speaker 1: would have kind of torn apart this confederation that they
Speaker 1: had worked so hard to keep together. And so again
Speaker 1: they were like, hey, let's we got to keep a
Speaker 1: good thing going here. Let's remain neutral. And in sixteen
Speaker 1: forty six the Swedes were sort of threatening them, and
Speaker 1: so they're like, well, we need to at least have
Speaker 1: an army though for national defense. We can be neutral,
Speaker 1: but we can't be we can't be rubesure. So each
Speaker 1: canton had like quotas for troops that they had to supply,
Speaker 1: and that's when they were like kind of formed that
Speaker 1: army of for defense purposes, which still exist today.
Speaker 2: So yeah, they created an army in sixteen forty six,
Speaker 2: and then two years later really big thing happened. It's
Speaker 2: just enormous. I'm really impressed. There is this guy named
Speaker 2: Johann Rudolph vechtein Yeah, sounds great. He was the mayor
Speaker 2: of Basil, right, and the Thirty Years War came to
Speaker 2: an end in sixteen forty eight through the piece of Westphalia,
Speaker 2: and vechtein Stein showed up to the piece of West
Speaker 2: Fallia Treaty negotiations. He said, I'm glad you guys are
Speaker 2: doing this. This is fantastic. Keep up the good work. Also,
Speaker 2: I want to talk to everybody about something, even though
Speaker 2: I'm just the mayor of Bosel. I want to make
Speaker 2: sure that Switzerland is represented here because we're just neutral
Speaker 2: and we think that we should no longer be under
Speaker 2: the thumb of the Holy Roman Empire. We think that
Speaker 2: we should have recognition as an dependent nation and also
Speaker 2: we want to be neutral too, And he got it
Speaker 2: passed through, like he gained recognition from these major powers
Speaker 2: of Europe that Switzerland was now its own country. Holy
Speaker 2: Roman Empire, Sorry, you just lost Switzerland.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that was I'm not sure how he
Speaker 1: pulled that off actually at the time, you know.
Speaker 2: With a lottery chocolate I'll tell you.
Speaker 3: That, yeah, and cuckoo clocks.
Speaker 1: So about one hundred years after that, there was another
Speaker 1: threat to their neutrality. This was seventeen nineties, late seventeen
Speaker 1: nineties when the French Revolutionary Republic and Austria and Russia
Speaker 1: were going at it and they kind of eat that
Speaker 1: battle into Switzerland some and I think after that victory
Speaker 1: that was like seventeen ninety eight, close to eighteen hundred,
Speaker 1: the French government created the Helvetic Republic assistern Nation, and
Speaker 1: that covered a lot of Switzerland.
Speaker 2: Yeah. They basically, he said, oh, we just happened to
Speaker 2: create this country that just is within the borders of Switzerland.
Speaker 3: Sorry, Switzerland, see some overlap there, guys. Yeah.
Speaker 2: They basically turned it into a territory. And this is
Speaker 2: pretty much par for the course for Napoleon. He really
Speaker 2: kind of sealed the deal when he sent an army
Speaker 2: to occupy Switzerland, I guess to protect his new made
Speaker 2: up country of Helvetic. I want to say Helvetica is
Speaker 2: so bad. But he essentially plundered Switzerland for the next
Speaker 2: decade in resources and humans. And actually, when he invaded
Speaker 2: Russia in eighteen twelve, he brought some Swiss troops with
Speaker 2: him and they did not do very well there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they sent nine thousand troops in seven hundred only
Speaker 1: seven hundred came home. Yeah, you know, the tide finally
Speaker 1: turned against Napoleon, and so they were like, all right, thank.
Speaker 3: God, we got rid of this guy. Yeah. And so
Speaker 3: after the Battle of.
Speaker 1: Leipzig in I believe eighteen thirteen, they were like all right,
Speaker 1: we're back to being neutral again. We do have our
Speaker 1: military force, but we're not gonna fight anymore. And in fact,
Speaker 1: in December of eighteen thirteen, when the Austrian Imperial Army
Speaker 1: was like, all right, we want to march through your
Speaker 1: country to go to France, They're like, fine, go right ahead,
Speaker 1: we'll just let you do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they just turned their backs and whistled. So one
Speaker 2: other thing happened. There was another another guy named Charles
Speaker 2: Pictet de Rochemont, and also in eighteen thirteen, during the
Speaker 2: peace treaty that ended well Napoleon's reign, I guess essentially
Speaker 2: he showed up and he said, also, we want to
Speaker 2: make sure that we're still getting recognized. We're now the
Speaker 2: Swiss Confederation. And everyone said, you mean the old Swiss
Speaker 2: Confederation and de Rochemont said, no, no, this is brand new.
Speaker 2: It's a new Swiss Confederation. You guys are gonna love it.
Speaker 2: And he was first just the mayor of Geneva, which
Speaker 2: was actually a city state, independenceay state, part of a
Speaker 2: canton now and I guess he did such a good
Speaker 2: job that he ended up representing Switzerland as a whole.
Speaker 2: And this is where their perpetual neutrality was established at
Speaker 2: the eighteen fourteen Congress of Vienna.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right, and that was it.
Speaker 1: I mean people generally look back to eighteen fifteen as
Speaker 1: like that's when everything really officially kind of started. When
Speaker 1: they became a unified federal state in eighteen forty eight,
Speaker 1: was when the final stamp was stamped.
Speaker 2: Right, So now we've reached the point where modern Switzerland
Speaker 2: is born and it is officially neutral. It's a sovereign nation,
Speaker 2: but it's still a confederation. Don't forget that.
Speaker 1: That's right, and that is where we're going to take
Speaker 1: a break and we'll be right back with more Swiss
Speaker 1: neutrality right after this.
Speaker 2: So, Chuck, we're in Switzerland now. It's a nice established
Speaker 2: country and part of it is very lovely. Part of
Speaker 2: what you said it needs and should have is a
Speaker 2: military for defense, and still today it has a military.
Speaker 2: In fact, I believe this month the military assembled like
Speaker 2: four thousand troops along the border to basically just keep
Speaker 2: any of the ne'er do wells at the G seventh
Speaker 2: summit spilling over, because the G seventh summits in France
Speaker 2: right now, that's right, But there I guess military presence
Speaker 2: states back I mean much further obviously, but the modern
Speaker 2: version of it is from like the nineteenth century, I think.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, they have to abide by certain
Speaker 1: rules that have happened since then, like the the Hague
Speaker 1: Convention nineteen oh seven. If you're a neutral country, which
Speaker 1: I guess there's like twenty three or so now that
Speaker 1: we've learned that, they can't fight in a war. They
Speaker 1: can't support any other countries warring parties. They can't send
Speaker 1: them weapons like most other countries do. They can't send
Speaker 1: money to help out in a war. They can't say hey,
Speaker 1: we'll host a base here, or your foreign troops can
Speaker 1: stay here for a little while. So, you know, they
Speaker 1: have to remain truly neutral under the Hague Convention, which
Speaker 1: they were. I'm sure they were quite delighted to make
Speaker 1: it official. But they again they've maintained that army because
Speaker 1: they have to have their own defense. And also we
Speaker 1: should point out that the Swiss army knife kind of
Speaker 1: came around in the nineteenth century, the eighteen eighties. It's
Speaker 1: like a literal, you know, if you didn't think the
Speaker 1: Swiss had an army, they had a knife named after them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, of course they had an army.
Speaker 2: For sure, and I mean it really is this army knife.
Speaker 2: They just call it the army knife. I'm guessing in Switzerland,
Speaker 2: but everywhere army knife, Swiss army knife. Yeah. Like the
Speaker 2: cake roll.
Speaker 3: God, I forgot about the cake roll that's another thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I don't know that they know that Little
Speaker 2: Debbie is putting their name on its cake rolls, because
Speaker 2: I think they would have a problem with that. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: look it up, Switzerland, You're not going to be happy.
Speaker 2: So World War One was a threat. Obviously all of
Speaker 2: Europe was fighting, but I don't believe Switzerland was drawn
Speaker 2: into it much. World War Two was a much greater threat.
Speaker 2: They had to work much harder to stay neutral and
Speaker 2: to keep the other countries out. And when Germany occupied France,
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, Switzerland was surrounded by the Axis
Speaker 2: and it was a very nervous time. And they managed
Speaker 2: to to amass an army of I think four hundred
Speaker 2: thousand troops in the Alps, and they let everybody know
Speaker 2: we're staying neutral, but if you come here, we're going
Speaker 2: to beat you badly. And it generally worked. I saw
Speaker 2: that they were accidentally bombed several times that other powers
Speaker 2: basically said, oh, we didn't mean to bomb you, sorry,
Speaker 2: but you know, we killed a bunch of your people.
Speaker 2: But for the most part, you know, it worked in
Speaker 2: that they were never invaded by anyone.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1: You know, just because your neutral doesn't mean that you
Speaker 1: have like you're not taking part in anything to do
Speaker 1: with the war. So they've as you'll see, you know,
Speaker 1: we'll talk about a little later. They have a long
Speaker 1: tradition of receiving refugees like war refugees, but kind of
Speaker 1: shamefully like the US and a lot of other places
Speaker 1: during in the aftermath or during World War Two, they
Speaker 1: they prevented a lot of Jewish people from from the
Speaker 1: Holocaust from finding refuge there. So that's that's one of
Speaker 1: the sort of dark spots.
Speaker 2: Sure. And then still today, if you are a man
Speaker 2: between ages eighteen and thirty four, you have to enlist
Speaker 2: in the military, or if you're a conscientious objector and
Speaker 2: say I'm not carrying a gun around, you can also
Speaker 2: there's some civilian services you can enlist in. And then
Speaker 2: if you're a woman you can also do it, but
Speaker 2: it's voluntary, you're not required to and I think today
Speaker 2: they have one hundred and fifty thousand active and reserved troops,
Speaker 2: and just like back in the day, each canton has
Speaker 2: to fulfill a quota and they have their own civilian
Speaker 2: defense forces.
Speaker 1: That's right, which is you know, it would be foolish
Speaker 1: not too at this point in world history for sure.
Speaker 2: So yeah, there's still a military despite the fact that
Speaker 2: they're neutral. I feel like we've managed to drive that
Speaker 2: point home.
Speaker 3: That's the stuff you should know. Ay, So.
Speaker 1: This whole idea that we mentioned kind of early on,
Speaker 1: as as Switzerland taking an active role in neutrality and
Speaker 1: not just being like, hey, just leave us alone, sure,
Speaker 1: where they're like, we will host your your dealings with
Speaker 1: one another, and we've become a center of arbitration for
Speaker 1: the world. Basically that started out basically in like the
Speaker 1: mid nineteenth century. The Geneva and Basil Chambers of Commerce
Speaker 1: said hey, let's get a system together and let's make
Speaker 1: this like, let's get serious about this and put some
Speaker 1: structure around what we want to do. And they got
Speaker 1: their first stab at that, I guess in eighteen seventy two,
Speaker 1: when it was around the Civil War, when negotiators from
Speaker 1: the United States and Great Britain went to Geneva and
Speaker 1: worked out what we're called the Alabama Claims, which were
Speaker 1: about losses caused by these British built Confederate ships, one
Speaker 1: of which was the Alabama during the Civil War. Britain
Speaker 1: ended up having to pay damages there and that started
Speaker 1: the whole system of like saying, hey, Geneva's pretty nice,
Speaker 1: you guys, we're pretty chill, and why don't you just
Speaker 1: come here to settle your disputes in our courtroom, the
Speaker 1: people's court, right, and then the bongo jobs started.
Speaker 2: I did not see Alabama coming up in an episode
Speaker 2: on Swiss New Neutrality, did you.
Speaker 3: I did not either.
Speaker 2: So since then, like you said, they literally wrote the
Speaker 2: rules on arbitration, and since then, like they have had
Speaker 2: some pretty high profile arbitration meetings, so much so that
Speaker 2: they eventually worked what are called the good Offices, which
Speaker 2: are everything from like a meeting place to mediation services
Speaker 2: for arbitration. It's worked into the Swiss Federal constitution, so
Speaker 2: they like that's a huge part of Switzerland maintaining its neutrality,
Speaker 2: as saying like, come take advantage of our neutral territory,
Speaker 2: like this is a place where you can meet and
Speaker 2: work out your differences. Let's all just work out our differences.
Speaker 2: Guy and I saw chook. One other thing that they do,
Speaker 2: which is really surprising. They represent the interests of country
Speaker 2: who are not speaking to each other. So I think
Speaker 2: that they represent Iran in Canada. So let's take Iran's like,
Speaker 2: we're not even talking to you Canada anymore. We're gonna
Speaker 2: get Switzerland to meet with you. We're not even going
Speaker 2: to be in the same room with you. They do
Speaker 2: that for several different countries.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's uh, they provide a service. I
Speaker 1: wonder what kind of like do they charge a fee
Speaker 1: for this?
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm sure that there's fees involved.
Speaker 1: Sure, even if it's just like you know, the hotels
Speaker 1: in Geneva are very overprised.
Speaker 2: Dude, I'll bet you their like, like coffee service at
Speaker 2: these meetings.
Speaker 3: And comences are amazing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean because they got they got to get
Speaker 1: something out of it besides neutrality.
Speaker 2: Sure. So, I you know, I knew like the Swiss
Speaker 2: were known for being very business like. I did not
Speaker 2: realize the extent that that is true. I believe that
Speaker 2: the Swiss mentality is generally like, yes, it's business. We
Speaker 2: conduct our business appropriately fairly, like we are really good
Speaker 2: at it. We have good contracts, like we are really
Speaker 2: business like, and that that is like, yes, that they
Speaker 2: are probably getting something for all of the services they're providing,
Speaker 2: because that's business.
Speaker 3: Yeah for sure. Yeah, I bet you're absolutely right.
Speaker 1: They're also known for their real push toward humanitarian aid
Speaker 1: all around the world, especially during times of conflict. Yeah,
Speaker 1: no less than the Red Cross, still based in Geneva,
Speaker 1: and if you look at their symbol, it's the inverse
Speaker 1: of the Swiss flag and that's no accident. But that
Speaker 1: all started out because of a Genevan businessman named Henry
Speaker 1: Jannant Saint Henry, Yeah for real. In eighteen fifty nine,
Speaker 1: he was in Sulfarino, a town in the north of
Speaker 1: Italy who's there for work, and he saw the aftermath
Speaker 1: of a battle between French and Austria and saw like
Speaker 1: forty thousand you know, dead and wounded soldiers all about him,
Speaker 1: and it really really moved him and put a dent
Speaker 1: in a psyche. I think because he got like personally involved,
Speaker 1: started helping out locals, started providing medical assistance, dressing wounds,
Speaker 1: like you know, literally himself doing this and spoke to
Speaker 1: French officials. It was like, hey, you got a bunch
Speaker 1: of Austrian surgeons who are POW's, like, let them out
Speaker 1: and let them help their own people, and let them
Speaker 1: help your people. And it moved him to the point
Speaker 1: where he kind of dedicated his life to it. He
Speaker 1: wrote a book called A Memory of Sulfurino and talked
Speaker 1: about these experiences in the creation of these committees that
Speaker 1: would train volunteers, and that's the stuff that would become
Speaker 1: the first national Red Cross Society.
Speaker 2: Yeah you feel like, okay, that's pretty impressive. Well prepare
Speaker 2: for this one too. You've heard of the Geneva Convention
Speaker 2: of the Treatment of Prisoners of War.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, well.
Speaker 2: That was his work. He started arguing and lobbying for
Speaker 2: some sort of international agreements on how to treat the
Speaker 2: sick and the wounded in the prisoners of war and
Speaker 2: that became the first Geneva Convention in eighteen sixty four.
Speaker 3: Pretty great.
Speaker 1: And the YMCA that you know in love he didn't
Speaker 1: create the YMCA, but do not really made it a
Speaker 1: global global movement and the World Alliance of the YMCA
Speaker 1: is also still in Geneva.
Speaker 2: So two things when I hear YMCA, obviously think village people.
Speaker 2: But I also think of this great moment from a
Speaker 2: Simpsons episode where Lionel Hutts is staying there at the
Speaker 2: YMCA and he's asleep, sitting down with his backup against
Speaker 2: the wall and his knees pulled up to his chest
Speaker 2: and his elbows on his knees and his head down,
Speaker 2: so you can imagine, and I think Bart and Lisa
Speaker 2: walk up and wake him up, and he suddenly comes
Speaker 2: awake and he has it. He brandishes a knife and
Speaker 2: he says, don't touch my stuff. Like that's he was
Speaker 2: staying at the YA. That was his experience there.
Speaker 3: That's pretty good. I love it, oh man, Lionel huts
Speaker 3: was the best.
Speaker 2: Yes he was, so if you're like, okay, still Dunant's impressive.
Speaker 2: But he was probably also just some crazy billionaire who
Speaker 2: just wanted to make a good name for himself wrong.
Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, all of this humanitarian work
Speaker 2: that he focused on led to him becoming bankrupt. He
Speaker 2: wasn't paying enough attention to his business, and so he
Speaker 2: lost his business, became bankrupt and essentially unknown for a
Speaker 2: couple of decades until eighteen ninety five. There was a
Speaker 2: journalist who's like, oh my god, this guy. I know
Speaker 2: this guy, and he's living like obscurely in poverty. I
Speaker 2: need to let everybody know about him. And he was
Speaker 2: one of the co recipients of the first Nobel Peace
Speaker 2: Prize in nineteen oh one. Quite rightfully so. But this
Speaker 2: guy was seriously, legitimately a good person.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we've seen this kind of one of my favorite things.
Speaker 1: It happen quite a bit in history where someone has
Speaker 1: done great things, but we're sort of lost to history,
Speaker 1: and then some journalists or somebody in or historian dug
Speaker 1: them up, well not literally, but you know, dug up
Speaker 1: their legacy and brushed it off and said, hey, how
Speaker 1: about this awesome person that we kind of forgot about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's nice when they're still alive too, so they
Speaker 2: can get the recognition. And maybe you're like, Okay, I'll
Speaker 2: bet he owned slaves or something like that. Nope, he
Speaker 2: was agitating for the abolition of slavery, or he was
Speaker 2: a gun nut. Nope, agitating for disarmament like he was.
Speaker 2: He was a humanitarian, if there was ever a humanitarian.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, I say we take another break.
Speaker 2: Is that good? Yeah? I think we're at a good break.
Speaker 2: Let's all just think about how great Henry Don is.
Speaker 3: All right, Let's spend a few moments doing that, and
Speaker 3: we'll be right back. All right. I dwelled on the.
Speaker 1: Life of Henry do not, and I feel even better
Speaker 1: than I did a few minutes ago.
Speaker 2: Same.
Speaker 1: But we're gonna move on and talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about some of the you know, it's not all I
Speaker 1: talked about, you know, one sort of darkness and that
Speaker 1: they didn't allow Jewish refugees en mass during World War Two.
Speaker 1: There's some other stuff that they have on their record
Speaker 1: that's not the greatest in the world. I guess we
Speaker 1: should talk about Nazi gold a little bit. But in
Speaker 1: order to talk about that, we should probably talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about just there. You know, you talked about
Speaker 1: them being, you know, brilliant business people and a center
Speaker 1: for business around the world. That happened because after they
Speaker 1: became formerly neutral in eighteen fifteen, they said, you know what,
Speaker 1: this is probably a good place for people to put
Speaker 1: their mind because we're neutral.
Speaker 3: It's safe.
Speaker 1: Anytime there's a lot of chaos around the world, like
Speaker 1: with World Wars, everyone knows that they can come here
Speaker 1: and do some banking. We may not be like, you know,
Speaker 1: like a world banking center with like by the likes
Speaker 1: of London or Berlin, but we can become pretty quietly
Speaker 1: powerful in our own way, especially if we tell everyone
Speaker 1: that all their business will be super private, if you
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they put an emphasis on that kind of thing,
Speaker 2: where like, if you open an account in Switzerland for
Speaker 2: decades and most of the twentieth century in fact, if
Speaker 2: not longer, you could have a secret bank account where
Speaker 2: like nobody could really figure it out. And that's it's
Speaker 2: not fully true. Like I think if say the US
Speaker 2: government came with a subpoena to find out who the
Speaker 2: owner was of a specific account, this was we'd cooperate
Speaker 2: with them. But for the most part, this was secret stuff, right,
Speaker 2: and that was how they made their name as an
Speaker 2: international banking center. But also because like again they are
Speaker 2: really really good at business, so you knew that this
Speaker 2: was like your money was safe not just because Switzerland
Speaker 2: was stable, but because their banking system was incredibly stable.
Speaker 2: So a lot of people took advantage of that. Dictators,
Speaker 2: money launders, eventually, drug dealers, terrorists, basically anyone Jackie Chanen,
Speaker 2: anyone you can think of who wanted to evade taxes,
Speaker 2: launder money, or just wanted to have their money stashed away,
Speaker 2: you know, quietly, and weren't really breaking any laws. You
Speaker 2: went to Switzerland. Like it's almost a trope. I think
Speaker 2: it is a true the secret Swiss bank account that
Speaker 2: you would have money transferred to.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that officially became official with the Federal Banking
Speaker 1: Act of nineteen thirty four, to the utter delight of
Speaker 1: screenwriters everywhere then and to come. But that unfortunately dried
Speaker 1: up in the nineteen nineties when they were like, all right,
Speaker 1: no more secret accounts. I guess we got to get
Speaker 1: rid of that provision. But yeah, it worked this way
Speaker 1: into a lot of movies over the years, just like
Speaker 1: you know, a numbered Swiss bank account that's growing up with,
Speaker 1: especially like Cold War movies and stuff like that, spy thrillers.
Speaker 1: It was always like a secret Swiss bank account. I
Speaker 1: feel like at play.
Speaker 2: They ended up removing that ability from the Swiss banking
Speaker 2: system because it started to come out just how many
Speaker 2: bad guys, right, we're using it where in Switzerland was
Speaker 2: allowing it to happen, So their banking system took a hit,
Speaker 2: you know, it's image, and they're like, we can't afford
Speaker 2: to do that. We're not making enough money off of
Speaker 2: drug dealers and terrorists. We need to you know, brush
Speaker 2: our image back up. So that's when they got rid
Speaker 2: of that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and their image probably needed a little brushing up
Speaker 1: because you know, I think I mentioned something about Nazi gold,
Speaker 1: or if I didn't, I'm mentioning it for the first
Speaker 1: time now. But they because of World War Two, they
Speaker 1: the Swiss National Bank ended up buying about four hundred
Speaker 1: and forty million dollars in Nazi gold, which was basically,
Speaker 1: you know, laundering that gold that was plundered that we've
Speaker 1: talked about a lot of times, like the plundering of
Speaker 1: World War two of the Germans from you know, different countries,
Speaker 1: brutally from Holocaust victims. I know, we've mentioned stuff like
Speaker 1: gold dental fillings and stuff. Yeah that was real, Yeah,
Speaker 1: from Jewish concentration camp victims. And so it's not a
Speaker 1: good look for the Swiss National Bank to be holding
Speaker 1: onto this stuff. So later, with the Washington Agreement of
Speaker 1: nineteen forty six, they were made to return, well at
Speaker 1: least some of that Nazi gold not much of it,
Speaker 1: only about twelve percent of it supposedly to its rightful owners,
Speaker 1: and that's you know. They ended up using it for
Speaker 1: other stuff too, though. They used to sometimes is funds
Speaker 1: to repay citizens of Switzerland who had seized property by
Speaker 1: communist regimes in Europe. So they were like, hey, maybe
Speaker 1: we'll use some of this Nazi gold to repay our
Speaker 1: own coffers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you said that, they, you know, basically laundered it.
Speaker 2: They one hundred percent laundered this. So they the Nazis
Speaker 2: showed up with literally tons and tons of gold, hundreds
Speaker 2: of tons of gold that was stolen from other countries,
Speaker 2: gave it to Switzerland. Switzerland gave the Nazi regime money,
Speaker 2: lots and lots of money in return, and then Switzerland
Speaker 2: turned around and took that gold and sold it to
Speaker 2: Spain and Portugal. So they fenced stolen gold for the
Speaker 2: Nazis and gave the Nazis money in return. It's as
Speaker 2: simple as that. People then know this until the nineteen nineties,
Speaker 2: when Switzerland was sued by a few organizations, including the
Speaker 2: World Jewish Congress. That was bad enough. So this is
Speaker 2: coming out at the same time that the secret account
Speaker 2: stuff is coming out too, So Switzerland's taking like one,
Speaker 2: two punches, haymakers, ropidopes even left and right. And then
Speaker 2: on top of that, even worse, you said that they
Speaker 2: were returning twelve percent of the Nazi gold to its
Speaker 2: rightful owners as part of the Washington Agreement of nineteen
Speaker 2: forty six. Well, a lot of people who were fleeing
Speaker 2: Germany or fleeing the Nazi regime, or fleeing the Holocaust
Speaker 2: but wanted to kind of keep their valuables in a
Speaker 2: safe place went to Switzerland to put money in bank accounts,
Speaker 2: to put valuable items in safe deposit boxes. And after
Speaker 2: the war ended, their heirs would show up and say,
Speaker 2: you know, my grandpa or my dad or somebody put this,
Speaker 2: you know, this family heirloom, this hope diamond in a
Speaker 2: safe deposit box in your bank, and I'm here to
Speaker 2: claim it. Here's all the documentation that i'm their rightful heir.
Speaker 2: And they would say, all of your papers look like
Speaker 2: they're in order, but I don't see a death certificate.
Speaker 2: And the air would say, well, my father or grandpa
Speaker 2: or whatever died in a concentration camp. The Nazis didn't
Speaker 2: issue death certific kids for that they kind of wanted
Speaker 2: to keep it secret, and this Swiss would say, sorry,
Speaker 2: can't help you, and they did that across the board.
Speaker 2: So they basically kept hundreds of millions of dollars is
Speaker 2: the accusation of legitimate deposits from legitimate errors of victims
Speaker 2: of the Holocaust.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and well a lot of times they didn't even
Speaker 1: have documentation at all, you know, much less death certificates
Speaker 1: because that stuff was destroyed in the war. Finally, in
Speaker 1: nineteen forty six they promised to say, all right, we're
Speaker 1: gonna find these assets of Holocaust victims from people who
Speaker 1: have no like, identifiable errors, and we're going to at
Speaker 1: least transfer them to a Jewish reconstruction organization. And decades
Speaker 1: later they basically concluded that that didn't really happen. And
Speaker 1: then nineteen ninety I think was when you said, finally,
Speaker 1: like fully like was exposed and there was a sus
Speaker 1: from the World Jewish Congress that got a one point
Speaker 1: two to five billion dollar settlement.
Speaker 3: Finally in nineteen ninety eight.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and again since then, the Swiss have been doing
Speaker 2: everything they can to kind of rehabilitate their image, but
Speaker 2: at the same time, they have also shown like they're
Speaker 2: not ones to just immediately bow to international pressure. The
Speaker 2: way that you get them is to hit them in
Speaker 2: their pocketbooks, like threaten their business or their entire banking industry.
Speaker 2: That's kind of what the pressure from the outside world
Speaker 2: was doing. Yeah, so sure they seem to have rebounded largely.
Speaker 2: There are some other things that make Switzerland peculiar too
Speaker 2: that are much less evil or dark. One is that
Speaker 2: they really are in a kind of a weird position
Speaker 2: as far as international groups go. Like in some ways,
Speaker 2: like it makes a lot of sense that they're the
Speaker 2: host of the International Red Cross headquarters Geneva, is right,
Speaker 2: But what about the UN? Should they be members of
Speaker 2: the UN? The UN? Does they have like peacekeeping troops
Speaker 2: with guns and stuff like that? Is what are the
Speaker 2: ramifications of Switzerland joining the UN? And they debated that
Speaker 2: for decades.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they finally, I mean it wasn't until two thousand
Speaker 1: and two that they even joined the UN. And like
Speaker 1: you said, it took a long time to kind of
Speaker 1: work out internally whether or not that's something they wanted
Speaker 1: to do or that would kind of ruin all those
Speaker 1: decades and decades of neutrality that they had become known for.
Speaker 1: There was a referendum that they eventually voted on whether
Speaker 1: or not to become a member, and advocates said, you
Speaker 1: know what, if we get involved with them, we can
Speaker 1: get involved and still like be committed to mediation and
Speaker 1: humanitarian aid, like that will be our role within the UN.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: And it was a pretty close vote.
Speaker 1: It was fifty four point six in favor and twelve yeah,
Speaker 1: almost like right at half. Twelve out of the twenty
Speaker 1: three cantons voted yes. And then finally in twenty twenty
Speaker 1: three it became a non permanent member of the UN Security.
Speaker 3: Council, that's those peacekeeping troops.
Speaker 1: That's right, And that was another you know, it wasn't
Speaker 1: It was pretty evenly split as well, so like even
Speaker 1: within the country they've always sort of hedged like whether
Speaker 1: or not they wanted to support joining up with these
Speaker 1: world groups, you know.
Speaker 2: Right exactly, and for good reason too. I mean it's
Speaker 2: tricky stuff. One of the places or one of the
Speaker 2: groups that they are just roundly rejecting, so much so
Speaker 2: that they basically told the EU like we're not we're
Speaker 2: not negotiating anymore, We're not joining the European Union, and
Speaker 2: the reason why they actually have pretty legitimate reasons why,
Speaker 2: especially if you come at life from a business like attitude.
Speaker 2: But one is that they would immediately be a net contributor.
Speaker 2: They would be paying out way more than they were
Speaker 2: benefiting from being a member of the EU. And the
Speaker 2: reason why is because they basically have cherry treaties with
Speaker 2: all of the European countries to do business with them,
Speaker 2: which is like the attractive thing for a rich country
Speaker 2: to join the EU. So they have that without being
Speaker 2: part of the EU, without having to pay into the
Speaker 2: EU right now, So they have the best of both
Speaker 2: worlds and really negative incentive, a number of negative incentives
Speaker 2: to join the EU.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Another is they just they really love taking care of
Speaker 1: their own business what they would call direct democracy and
Speaker 1: deciding for them what's best for them. And if you're
Speaker 1: part of the EU, then obviously you're part of a
Speaker 1: larger collective and you don't like just individual citizens' ability
Speaker 1: to decide things for themselves and hold those referendums that
Speaker 1: would go away, and so they're not into that. And
Speaker 1: also just you know, they built up this neutral brand
Speaker 1: over the years and it's not like branding, branding but
Speaker 1: it kind of is, and that they don't want to
Speaker 1: just throw that all away. After again, you know, more
Speaker 1: than one hundred years more than that actually of like
Speaker 1: being known. Like you know, when you think neutral and
Speaker 1: you think chocolate and you think cuckoo clocks and army knives,
Speaker 1: you think of Switzerland, and they don't want that to
Speaker 1: go away.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when you think thirst, you think sprite. When you
Speaker 2: think neutral, you think of Switzerland.
Speaker 3: That's right.
Speaker 2: There's another thing too that being a member of the
Speaker 2: EU means that any member nation or the residents of
Speaker 2: any member nation or the EU can move to your
Speaker 2: place unrestricted as far as I know. So immigration is
Speaker 2: free throughout the European Union, and Switzerland's like, we actually
Speaker 2: are pretty strict on immigration, and we're worried that if
Speaker 2: we get a lot of people migrating to Switzerland, the
Speaker 2: wages in Switzerland are going to start to be decompressed
Speaker 2: because a lot of people migrating here are willing to
Speaker 2: accept far less than what the average Swiss person is paid.
Speaker 2: So yeah, essentially, every they have all these incentives, you know,
Speaker 2: morally upstanding or not to not join the EU, and
Speaker 2: it does not look like they are ever going to
Speaker 2: join the EU.
Speaker 1: Yeah, or NATO obviously, that's a warring organization for sure,
Speaker 1: or not a warring organization, but a military alliance for sure.
Speaker 2: And for all of its blemishes and rough spots and
Speaker 2: all that, I hope Switzerland stays Switzerland.
Speaker 3: You know, it would be I think everyone does.
Speaker 2: I think the world would kind of lose something if
Speaker 2: if Switzerland just became like any other country. You know, agreed, Well,
Speaker 2: that's Switzerland, Chuck, Swiss neutrality, I should say, that's right.
Speaker 2: If you want to know more about Swiss neutrality, travel
Speaker 2: of Switzerland, or watch a documentary on Switzerland. And in
Speaker 2: the meantime, it's time for listener mail.
Speaker 1: There's another Mash follow up. Hey guys, huge Mash fan.
Speaker 1: I'm a bit older than Chuck and still only twelve
Speaker 1: when it debuted. It was a perfect blend of comedy
Speaker 1: and poignant drama showing the horrors of war. I always
Speaker 1: thought the writing was brilliant and did take characters on
Speaker 1: a great growth art being a closeted gay kid now
Speaker 1: openly and very happy gay man.
Speaker 3: It was one of the first times.
Speaker 1: That a TV show dealt with the subject of homosexuality
Speaker 1: in a sympathetic way, even if only on one episode.
Speaker 1: I was such a fan that I'd developed a mash
Speaker 1: trivia game similar to Trivial Pursuit, and a number of
Speaker 1: details you mentioned in your episode were part of the game,
Speaker 1: like Toledo and Tony Pacos.
Speaker 3: So great job, guys.
Speaker 1: You always do a great job and are so pleasant
Speaker 1: to listen to on my daily walks and whenever you
Speaker 1: guys touch on LGTVQ plus topics.
Speaker 3: You do an amazing jobs to straight guys. So thank
Speaker 3: you for that.
Speaker 1: And that is from Dave in Vancouver. And Dave, I
Speaker 1: hope you're coming to see our live.
Speaker 3: Show in Vancouver. Yeah, we can't wait.
Speaker 1: There's still tickets available for all of the Well, I
Speaker 1: guess the first LUG will be over by this time,
Speaker 1: but that second leg in July I believe is probably
Speaker 1: somewhere around this time.
Speaker 3: We'd love to see everyone.
Speaker 2: Coming up quick, Dave, So yeah, we'd love to see
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