Speaker 1: Look man, oh I see you. Why oh? And look
Speaker 1: over there? How is that culture? Yes, goodness, I can
Speaker 1: tell you will have emotions. You've she's got you feeling
Speaker 1: about She's got me feeling emotions. In fact, I have
Speaker 1: to just do this right now because it's such a
Speaker 1: happy occasion. Oh my god, Oh my god, it got
Speaker 1: all But that's actually okay, because this is such a
Speaker 1: I popped a little bottle of champagne everyone at home,
Speaker 1: and it just got all over me because we are
Speaker 1: celebrating today New York Times bestseller, the New York Times
Speaker 1: bestseller that is now my favorite book is. It's more
Speaker 1: than just a book to me. It's a piece of
Speaker 1: living history. It's a historical document the meaning of Mariah Carry.
Speaker 1: And today we're going to do the meeting of Mariah
Speaker 1: Carry Book Club. I can't wait for this. I was
Speaker 1: looking forward to this all week. The only person I
Speaker 1: would finish a book for on a week like this,
Speaker 1: For two people, You and Maria go back like babies
Speaker 1: are passive fire fires. We have to talk about what
Speaker 1: a genius. First of all, can we just say a
Speaker 1: genius for wanting to include ODB in that track and
Speaker 1: directing the music video. This whole thing warrants its own conversation,
Speaker 1: So I think, what, let's let's get let's wait, let's wait.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to ask you because I kind of
Speaker 1: threw this out there last week, um, and I wasn't
Speaker 1: sure if you'd want to do it, because I know
Speaker 1: that you don't have the most time because you guys
Speaker 1: are hashtag in season at SNL, and I know that
Speaker 1: you're not historically as big of Mariah fan or a
Speaker 1: lamb as I am. But I'm not and I wasn't
Speaker 1: in the Lamily. I feel like I have a profound
Speaker 1: understanding and appreciation and admiration for Mariah Carey. Now, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's truly I feel a little bit transformed. Should we
Speaker 1: just get into it? What? What? What do you think?
Speaker 1: I would love to hear from you, what your broad
Speaker 1: impressions were. I want to hear everything that you experienced
Speaker 1: while reading the book. I want to know what you felt.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm. We have not spoken about it at all.
Speaker 1: I only saw your twit twit, your tweet earlier today
Speaker 1: saying that you loved it, so so please tell me everything. Well,
Speaker 1: I like you. I saw your twit and you had
Speaker 1: said that you were an actual real tears finishing the book,
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh god, I bet she just
Speaker 1: really dazzles you with the ending, and boy did she
Speaker 1: got really fucking emotional because I, um just this was
Speaker 1: the week that I needed to hear all of that.
Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna say something crazy and truly I
Speaker 1: will allow people to like come from my head to
Speaker 1: when I say this. Especially the beginning, it read like
Speaker 1: a modern day Tony Morrison book. It read like something
Speaker 1: so like to borrow phrase from Asia Ohara, like eht
Speaker 1: in sorrow? Do you know what I'm saying her name was?
Speaker 1: And now it's flashing flashing lights. Really, you see Michael
Speaker 1: Angela Davis's name on the cover and you're you're like, Okay,
Speaker 1: she's being area up front about having a ghostwriter. Good
Speaker 1: for her. But like from the beginning you read that,
Speaker 1: you read this book and you're like, Okay, there's so
Speaker 1: much raw detail here, in specific detail here that it
Speaker 1: could only have come from her. And she's an artist
Speaker 1: and she's a writer. She's she she's good with words.
Speaker 1: It's like, I'm willing to say that she probably wrote
Speaker 1: a majority of this book and probably like and she's
Speaker 1: friends with miss Davis, and it's just like, okay, like
Speaker 1: why don't you get this credit? But like so much
Speaker 1: of it can only could only have come from her,
Speaker 1: That's my thought. Yeah, I think it's always interesting whenever
Speaker 1: people want to have the conversation about how much of
Speaker 1: it was quote unquote actually written by the person at
Speaker 1: the center, because for me, it's like there's no doubt
Speaker 1: in my mind, being the life long and I mean
Speaker 1: life long fan that I am of Mariah, that this
Speaker 1: sounds like her is completely in her voice. And the
Speaker 1: thing about her is the fans know that she really
Speaker 1: does right all of her music, and so are the vast,
Speaker 1: vast majority of music and lyrically, this sounds like her,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like in terms of the
Speaker 1: prose of it all. You know, maybe it wasn't all
Speaker 1: totally authentically coming from only her, but this is her voice,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Like this and this this
Speaker 1: book impressed me so much because it got across um.
Speaker 1: It was such a beautiful writing, but yet it also
Speaker 1: did sound like her the whole way through. For me,
Speaker 1: reading this was very it actually was very emotional for me,
Speaker 1: of course, of course, and I was thinking of you
Speaker 1: the whole time, and before you keep going, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: I just I think it's worth pointing out that you
Speaker 1: and I are as old as her career and not
Speaker 1: as old. But it's like she's it's it's it's MC thirty,
Speaker 1: Like we're thirty years old. It's like like Vision of
Speaker 1: Love came out when we were the year we were born.
Speaker 1: Like I feel like that has some I don't know,
Speaker 1: like coincidental meaning, but it's like that's that's important. I think. Yeah.
Speaker 1: To me, like weirdly, numerically, Mariah always seems to line
Speaker 1: up with me, like and I'll say I said it
Speaker 1: on the podcast last week, but I will say definitively,
Speaker 1: I have so gone back and forth on this question
Speaker 1: over the years doing this podcast and when we pose
Speaker 1: this question to other guests, it's always in the back
Speaker 1: of my mind. But for me, the culture that made
Speaker 1: me say culture was for me is and was Maria
Speaker 1: And so this was really like extremely up and down
Speaker 1: experience for me to read this because she really has,
Speaker 1: like her music really has been there for me, like
Speaker 1: through my entire life. And I mean I could get
Speaker 1: into specifics as we as we go through it, but
Speaker 1: you know, hearing that she struggled as much as she did,
Speaker 1: and she came from the place that she came from,
Speaker 1: and it was you know, her passion and talent and
Speaker 1: love for what she was doing that was really the
Speaker 1: only thing that saved her and got her to where
Speaker 1: she is, which is one of the greatest of all time. Um.
Speaker 1: It was just extremely inspiring. And while I was so
Speaker 1: devastated for her in the in the dark parts of
Speaker 1: this book, I obviously recommended to everyone because this is
Speaker 1: a book not only about like triumph over struggle, it's
Speaker 1: it's so reveals and explores so many themes in her
Speaker 1: life that are so specific to her and yet can
Speaker 1: feel so universal, while also being a total celebration of
Speaker 1: her music end of music in general. That any music
Speaker 1: fan would love this book, and anyone with an understanding,
Speaker 1: which is with an even a vague understanding of who
Speaker 1: Maria carry is I think would be enriched in reading
Speaker 1: it because it's like truly like a human triumph. I
Speaker 1: can't say enough about what this book means to me
Speaker 1: and what she means to me, and what her all
Speaker 1: of her music means to me and always has. I
Speaker 1: love that, And I will say as someone who is
Speaker 1: only really getting the media packaged version of her narrative
Speaker 1: from the sidelines, just being like, okay, she got married
Speaker 1: to that sony guy. My sort of downloading of Maria
Speaker 1: Carrey has only been secondhand, and that I did not
Speaker 1: put in the work myself to be like, okay, what
Speaker 1: is what is she about? Like what is informing this behavior?
Speaker 1: Because some of the behavior is like fun and silly
Speaker 1: and juicy and like, oh my god, isn't she being
Speaker 1: such a diva? But like all of it, and I
Speaker 1: mean all of it makes sense to me now, all
Speaker 1: of it down to down to the I don't know
Speaker 1: her of it all like that fully tracks in my
Speaker 1: in my sort of thinking now, and it's like, oh, yes,
Speaker 1: of course this is how you would sort of approach this.
Speaker 1: And of course you were traumatized by the way that
Speaker 1: your career was sabotaged at the hands of your ex husband,
Speaker 1: who then went behind your back and then like gave
Speaker 1: swiped you twice in order to give this other artist,
Speaker 1: like you know, like a moment, a thing whatever. And
Speaker 1: I'm just like, Okay, this all makes sense to me now,
Speaker 1: and even if, like even if anyone out there I
Speaker 1: haven't really read this. I feel like it is pretty
Speaker 1: universally being acclaimed, this book. But even for someone who's
Speaker 1: just like, well, it's probably a really strategic sort of
Speaker 1: pr thing and blah blah blah. But I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: like this is something. This is like a fully conto
Speaker 1: word illustration of her life. I think, Oh, it's passionately
Speaker 1: written and written with care and detail and research into
Speaker 1: her own family history. I mean, this is this is
Speaker 1: a labor of love. You can tell. And I will
Speaker 1: say she has I listened to the audio book, so
Speaker 1: did you. She hasn't yet again changed the game in
Speaker 1: a in a new medium, because the audio books are
Speaker 1: not going to be the same now after this because
Speaker 1: a jester again, And I also say Jess because she's
Speaker 1: so funny and I love when she cracks herself up,
Speaker 1: and there's just moments in the book where she starts singing.
Speaker 1: There's a particular refrain that is like really important to Lambs,
Speaker 1: which is the opening of closed my eyes, which is
Speaker 1: and like when when that jumped out in that moment
Speaker 1: where she's in the bath, not out when that jumped out,
Speaker 1: and then when where she's in the bath after her concert,
Speaker 1: the first concert she had where she she was taping
Speaker 1: a special and she realized she had a lot of fans.
Speaker 1: Shemus right, And she gets home and gets in the
Speaker 1: bath for her relaxing moment, and that just sort of
Speaker 1: comes to her the way the tears sprung to my
Speaker 1: eyes because because I associate that obviously with the Butterfly album,
Speaker 1: and I have said it many times on this podcast
Speaker 1: that the Butterfly album is my favorite album of all
Speaker 1: time because I associated with the point in my childhood
Speaker 1: where it was the first time I ever truly really
Speaker 1: connected to lyrics. Because I'll just I'll just say this
Speaker 1: flat out right now. So when I was seven eight
Speaker 1: years old is when the music of Butterfly started coming out.
Speaker 1: That was when Honey came out as a single that
Speaker 1: and then it was followed by My All and the
Speaker 1: whole Butterfly album that I just sat and drenched myself in.
Speaker 1: It was the first time I felt like an artist
Speaker 1: that I was listening to purposely was like really meaning
Speaker 1: what they were saying, and lyrically and musically they were
Speaker 1: alive in what they were doing. And then I went
Speaker 1: back and listened to everything she had ever done. My
Speaker 1: dad was actually a fan of hers, and we had
Speaker 1: the music box CD just in the house, so um,
Speaker 1: I ended up listening to that and from there on, like,
Speaker 1: I think it was around that time that I started
Speaker 1: realizing that I was different. I didn't I don't think
Speaker 1: I had the words for day. I don't think I
Speaker 1: had the words for queer or whatever. But the themes
Speaker 1: that she explores throughout Butterfly of liberating yourself and um,
Speaker 1: you know, not for nothing, but discovering your sexuality, because
Speaker 1: that was very much what was happening on that album.
Speaker 1: She talks a lot about yes exactly once and during
Speaker 1: the divorce, and as she exited the divorce, that was
Speaker 1: when there was a real commitment to hip hop in
Speaker 1: her music and a real sort of embracing of real
Speaker 1: sensuality in her lyrics. Whereas she discusses a lot how
Speaker 1: her early pop songs were like dream Lover and fantasy
Speaker 1: adult contemporary, and I'm talking lyrically the object of her
Speaker 1: songs being fake people, whereas people that she wasn't writing
Speaker 1: towards she was, they were just abstractions. Yeah, yes, and
Speaker 1: so deep in that music that I just felt it
Speaker 1: in my bones, Like I remember, I felt the song
Speaker 1: of the Roof in my bones, I was I had
Speaker 1: no concept of what it felt like to be stifled
Speaker 1: and then be able to like have a sexual moment
Speaker 1: with someone or a romantic moment with someone on a
Speaker 1: roof falls but with DJ and I just want to say, like, y'all,
Speaker 1: this is actually the other night Patrick and Joel were
Speaker 1: over at the house and I made them listen to
Speaker 1: the Roof because it's beautiful, beautiful, such a genius song,
Speaker 1: you guys, And like, I made a playlist, and I
Speaker 1: actually made a beginner's playlist of Mariah for those who
Speaker 1: aren't really lambs who want to entry point, and I
Speaker 1: made a more intermediate playlist for those that kind of
Speaker 1: want to delve into her more deep cut stuff. And
Speaker 1: the Roof is the first track on my other on
Speaker 1: my second playlist. But this is down to even the
Speaker 1: rain hitting her skin and like the physicalization of that
Speaker 1: when you really match that up with what she's going through,
Speaker 1: which is a deep discovery of her own sexuality and sensuality,
Speaker 1: which as we know, is such a huge part of
Speaker 1: Mariah Carey. That was such a moment and I will
Speaker 1: never forget discovering that with the door closed when I
Speaker 1: was eight years old, just like you know whatever, but um,
Speaker 1: it means something so much to me, Like the song
Speaker 1: my All means so much to me, The song Butterfly
Speaker 1: I means so much to me. Like so to have
Speaker 1: her delve into the creation of that album in such
Speaker 1: rich detail was a dream for me, Like it was.
Speaker 1: It was euphoric for me, like to have her, to
Speaker 1: have her explain just how these lyrics came to her
Speaker 1: and those feelings and those emotions, and she so vividly
Speaker 1: portrayed that night with dark Jeter. She devotes the whole
Speaker 1: chapter in the book to that night. Yes, and so
Speaker 1: and then and then that was sort of the source
Speaker 1: material of the song. And this this, I mean, I
Speaker 1: love hearing you talk about this and hearing you talk
Speaker 1: about the door being closed. Are you saying that you
Speaker 1: touched yourself to that song? No, that was a couple
Speaker 1: of years before I started jacking off. In fact, the
Speaker 1: first time I ever jacked off. Do you want to
Speaker 1: know what song was playing? Was it Honey, a song
Speaker 1: about Come? No, it was another song that had come
Speaker 1: in it. It was come, Come Come. It was Butterfly
Speaker 1: by crazy Town, crazy Town, and which that was a
Speaker 1: hot music video that that that music video was hot. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I was like, that's when I actually discovered myself,
Speaker 1: like a couple of years later, and I didn't even
Speaker 1: know I was like gay yet. It was just like whatever.
Speaker 1: But what I guess when I'm saying about them the
Speaker 1: Butterfly album, it was the first time I ever like
Speaker 1: let myself seep into something that felt like a little
Speaker 1: bit more adult than I was used to. And I
Speaker 1: felt like there is like a weird thing where I
Speaker 1: associate her self discovery and that album with my own
Speaker 1: beginning of self identification as being different and like, you know,
Speaker 1: not for nothing, but at the same time, like this
Speaker 1: is probably something I haven't really talked about on the
Speaker 1: podcast to really, I don't ever talk about too much.
Speaker 1: But when I was very young, like I don't know
Speaker 1: how it was for you moving around so much and
Speaker 1: you know, not speaking the language and you know, obviously
Speaker 1: visually appearing to being a different race than the other kids,
Speaker 1: Like I was, became so aware of my like an
Speaker 1: abstract sense. I was aware of my queerness, just knew
Speaker 1: I was different, and I developed like a real social
Speaker 1: anxiety like I did. It was very hard for me
Speaker 1: to make new friends, like I was not good at
Speaker 1: making new friends, and her music was such a comfort
Speaker 1: to me at that time. Like I remember like I
Speaker 1: was having like a panic what I can now realize
Speaker 1: was panic attacks, like when the bus would around the
Speaker 1: corner to pick me up, Like a couple of times
Speaker 1: I threw up at my bus stop because I was
Speaker 1: so afraid of not being able to sit with someone.
Speaker 1: Or like a couple of times when I the buses
Speaker 1: like raised and I would sort of I thought it
Speaker 1: would be cool to like get up on the bus
Speaker 1: bass and would fall and like just like really stupid ship.
Speaker 1: But like you were just choreographing. You just had such
Speaker 1: anxiety around I had such anxiety around everything, around every
Speaker 1: social interaction. And so her music at that time was
Speaker 1: like such a big part of my life that like
Speaker 1: I associated with comfort in that way. And I'll always
Speaker 1: feel like safe and warm when I'm listening to that album,
Speaker 1: and even like the Honey Imagery, like the warmth of
Speaker 1: that song and like the way it feels like I'll
Speaker 1: just and there's so much about you know, being a
Speaker 1: kid that doesn't fit in And because this is really
Speaker 1: when she starts to tackle her own um childhood in
Speaker 1: a way like maybe I grew up a little too soon,
Speaker 1: as the lyric and the um and close my eyes
Speaker 1: and she dripped herself as a wayward child and stuff
Speaker 1: like that, like obviously I can't compare what I was
Speaker 1: going through in my childhood to the horrors that she experienced,
Speaker 1: which now you know why she identified with the scripts
Speaker 1: like preshious. But it's I just it's a is going
Speaker 1: to be so important to me always. I mean that
Speaker 1: album was her sort of opening the little little bit
Speaker 1: I know. It's like she makes the whole point of
Speaker 1: not just abandoning numerals, not really tracking her age. She
Speaker 1: doesn't mention her her age once she like like, well
Speaker 1: she she mentioned she mentioned her age, and like these
Speaker 1: important developmental moments, but she's not like I'm fifty now
Speaker 1: or you know, like she she she doesn't speak in
Speaker 1: those terms. But it's like from the moment she you know,
Speaker 1: moved like in Earnest was working in music, I was
Speaker 1: trying to make it to that's connected the show where
Speaker 1: she's like, oh my god, I'm famous what and then
Speaker 1: that's like a benchmark, but it was still but then
Speaker 1: even even from that point to her divorcing from Tommy Matola.
Speaker 1: It's like there is this there. She was sort of
Speaker 1: being held in some like panopticon, or she was being
Speaker 1: held captive in some way up through her family or
Speaker 1: through her husband, or through her labels, UM, her label
Speaker 1: I should say, through Sony specifically UM and then virgin.
Speaker 1: But it's like, honey, you could see, you could tell
Speaker 1: is like the sort of first crack in the like
Speaker 1: emancipation that would come later, you know, right, you know
Speaker 1: even in the music video, like she talks she discussion escapes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she's um doing this James Bond sort of thing. She's
Speaker 1: h and M and um. So she is, uh, she
Speaker 1: escapes from this mansion that she's being held in and
Speaker 1: sheds the little black dress that she always had to wear.
Speaker 1: And you know she sort of in that moment like
Speaker 1: literally sheds that skin in the pool when she jumps
Speaker 1: into it and becomes Mariah Carey like that she would
Speaker 1: be forever, you know what I mean. And also at
Speaker 1: that time, it was so interesting because another thing I've
Speaker 1: been doing is I've been watching a lot of media
Speaker 1: that she has done throughout the years, and I remember
Speaker 1: there was two things I heard about Mariah Carry in
Speaker 1: the very beginning when because I was like a big
Speaker 1: Selein Beyond fan, like it was just because the Titanic
Speaker 1: thing was she was everywhere as you know, especially from
Speaker 1: where from like your perspective, like the French, French Canadian
Speaker 1: ness of it all. Um. But she was huge obviously,
Speaker 1: and I was like, I've always been like a protective
Speaker 1: stam like even back then, like my mom was like
Speaker 1: of Selena of anybody like like but yes, but my
Speaker 1: mother said to me at the time, she was like,
Speaker 1: you know, if you like Selean Beyond so much, you
Speaker 1: might like Mariah Carry. Mariah Carry is one of my favorites.
Speaker 1: And I was like, who is that? And she was like, well,
Speaker 1: she's an amazing singer. And I remember my mother said
Speaker 1: to me at the time she does she does dress
Speaker 1: a little, you know, but but but she that was
Speaker 1: like that was like you know what I mean, Like
Speaker 1: that was like the narrative around her was like all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, she was dressing like quote unquote like
Speaker 1: slutty um. And she was she she was like stily
Speaker 1: clad all the time. Yeah, But I think it was
Speaker 1: just because, as she details in the book, like through
Speaker 1: the first like six seven years of her career, she
Speaker 1: was maybe allowed to show a little bit of cleavage
Speaker 1: in a little bit of like naval and that was it.
Speaker 1: And this is someone who is deeply in her bones
Speaker 1: a sexual, sensual person and was never allowed to be
Speaker 1: that to the point where it was physically manifesting in herself.
Speaker 1: How uncomfortable she was all the time. I mean that
Speaker 1: passage where she's with her acting coach, that was crazy.
Speaker 1: But I remember those were the things I had heard
Speaker 1: about her were like, you know, she is uh, a
Speaker 1: little bit you know, on the edgy side in terms
Speaker 1: of how she dresses, and she's got an amazing voice.
Speaker 1: And then I got into her and I just connected
Speaker 1: with her. But this is but your mom was saying
Speaker 1: this before. That was the reputation before Butterfly. Even this
Speaker 1: was when Honey, when Honey had come out, and then
Speaker 1: like a Butterfly was happening, That's when that's when I
Speaker 1: first like became conscious of who she really was. And um,
Speaker 1: then it was like all broke open from me and
Speaker 1: there was no one who stood who stood anywhere near
Speaker 1: her in terms of my own devotion at that's shore.
Speaker 1: And by the time Rainbow came in, it was like,
Speaker 1: Oh wow, like she's fully leaning into this like sex
Speaker 1: pot Like there's just a oh God. There's a song
Speaker 1: that still holds up um in like any sort of
Speaker 1: makeout or sex playlist um off of Rainbow that I
Speaker 1: that I still use, which is Bliss, which is like
Speaker 1: six minutes long, and it's just her going, yeah, that's
Speaker 1: all the song is, and it's so good and it's
Speaker 1: still it's just timeless. It's timeless. She this is the thing,
Speaker 1: and she always talks she talks about Marrilyn Monroe being
Speaker 1: this inspiration for her. But the reason why, I think
Speaker 1: and what sort of drives her and motivates her subconsciously
Speaker 1: in her art is she wants to create things that
Speaker 1: are timeless, timeless. Yes, she's driven by that in every sense.
Speaker 1: And like, I feel like I think this book itself
Speaker 1: is timeless. I think I think it's sort of reshaping
Speaker 1: the celebrity memoir in a certain way. I mean, I
Speaker 1: mean it certainly raises a bar. It raises the bar
Speaker 1: for that for her ilk do you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: It's definitely it's like you know, if if let's say
Speaker 1: Selene were to write a book like it would have
Speaker 1: to be so it would have to get so fucking
Speaker 1: real about the fact that Renee and Julielle came onto
Speaker 1: her when she was fourteen years old. You know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying. It's like, yeah, and I guess that's the
Speaker 1: thing too, is it's like, I question whether or not
Speaker 1: Selene would or could get that right. And for me,
Speaker 1: that's that's what connects me to Mariah Carey is there's
Speaker 1: a deep honesty to her that has really always been
Speaker 1: there if you look at her lyrics, and because she
Speaker 1: has been telling a story for years, and she's even
Speaker 1: said a lot of this stuff before, but she's able
Speaker 1: to spell it out in such explicit detail here that
Speaker 1: you're right, does raise the bar for stuff like this
Speaker 1: because it's so beautifully bloored. But you know, and you've
Speaker 1: you've you've talked about this like sort of like whatever
Speaker 1: off off the air, off off the record, off the pod.
Speaker 1: But you're just like, oh no, she's like she's changed
Speaker 1: in the last two years since um, and she's been
Speaker 1: writing this book for two or three years. UM. But
Speaker 1: because I was going to bring up the fact that
Speaker 1: four or five years ago, the Mariah Carey of the
Speaker 1: mid Offs or no know, the mid teens, whatever you
Speaker 1: wanna call them, was still pretty kg about stuff in general.
Speaker 1: Was was very like reactionary to things that would happen
Speaker 1: to her in the media, was very not in control
Speaker 1: of the narrative, still sort of at the mercy of
Speaker 1: like the publicist industrial complex, like the publicity industrial comm
Speaker 1: whatever you wanna call it. Something has happened maybe since
Speaker 1: she like came out with that whole like I'm bipolar thing,
Speaker 1: not to not to reduce it, but like she's since
Speaker 1: she came out as bipolar I'm a few years ago.
Speaker 1: Since that, there's there's been some shift where she is
Speaker 1: being i think, very radically transparent about I think she
Speaker 1: might be genuinely happy. I think that she's very happy
Speaker 1: with Tanaka. I'm not exactly sure what the nature of
Speaker 1: their relationship is now, even after reading the book, she
Speaker 1: just kind of describes him as a beautiful person in
Speaker 1: her life. And I'm so happy that she has that
Speaker 1: and that that was not just some weird thing that
Speaker 1: was a stunt thing for the docuseries slash reality show
Speaker 1: that it became the Mariah's World moment when she was
Speaker 1: That's why I'm talking about She's being badly managed by
Speaker 1: by ms Stella. So she's she's she's the definition of
Speaker 1: and I don't think so, honey, a villain in her life.
Speaker 1: And I'm so happy that she's gone, but I think
Speaker 1: that that might have something to do with it. Also,
Speaker 1: the fact of the matter is, you know, Mariah is
Speaker 1: very honest in this book. She's not perfect, and how
Speaker 1: could you be. She's been through so fucking much. And
Speaker 1: she's also and she discussed is this a lot in
Speaker 1: the book, a real victim of that paparazzi culture, and
Speaker 1: she really and and the fact that she was able
Speaker 1: to survive that glitter moment when the entire world did
Speaker 1: did want to see her tear torn down because she
Speaker 1: was there was no one bigger and how juicy is
Speaker 1: it for someone to fail so spectacularly? And that was
Speaker 1: at that time when there was no awareness about like
Speaker 1: what bullying was in that kind of context. It was
Speaker 1: just like, ha, ha, look at her, looks stupid. Now
Speaker 1: is our chance, um that we're all guilty of participating in?
Speaker 1: But I think that's someone that's been through something like
Speaker 1: that doesn't just automatically know how to respond in this way.
Speaker 1: And what I really liked. The passage in this book
Speaker 1: that I really liked was when she discusses seeing princess
Speaker 1: die at an event. I was gonna bring that up.
Speaker 1: And they have that moment of looking each other in
Speaker 1: the eyes and they really saw each other, They kind
Speaker 1: of saw they were both victims of this thing that
Speaker 1: was paparazzi and me ea and this this narrative of um,
Speaker 1: the bigger they are, the harder they must fall. UM.
Speaker 1: And I think there was a real recognition there, and
Speaker 1: she says, you know, she wishes that Princess Diana had
Speaker 1: lived to get an Instagram or a Twitter, or to
Speaker 1: be able to have her own voice and to watch
Speaker 1: what I thought was a really beautiful way of saying it,
Speaker 1: the people become the press, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Like she maybe would have stood more of a chance
Speaker 1: if she would have seen that there was an end date.
Speaker 1: There was an expiration on that culture that even Mariah
Speaker 1: says killed her and and would have killed Mariah had
Speaker 1: she not, um, you know, had had gotten lucky to
Speaker 1: be honest. Sure, I mean I did get a chill
Speaker 1: when I um when I read that part where she
Speaker 1: was like social media for you know, for all its
Speaker 1: false or whatever has at least rendered tabloids completely meaningless.
Speaker 1: There's no power in them anymore. And and of course,
Speaker 1: like we've always known them to be ridiculous and terrible,
Speaker 1: but it's like, oh no, they but there is no
Speaker 1: like when are you ever going to pick up um
Speaker 1: sweekly anymore? Exactly? That's this done. It's like who fucking cares?
Speaker 1: And they're all toxic, horrible, septic tank fucking rags anyway.
Speaker 1: But um, but I mean I did I understand what
Speaker 1: she's saying about the Diana the Diana thing, um, and
Speaker 1: I do believe her when she felt a moment of
Speaker 1: connection and it's like, what a profound moment, and like absolutely,
Speaker 1: like please say that you have something in common saying
Speaker 1: it because you're one of the only people who like
Speaker 1: at that time could maybe make that claim. But the
Speaker 1: way the way the way she worded it, which was
Speaker 1: I wish Princess Diana had lived long enough to get funny. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it was kind of funny, like to say
Speaker 1: to have an Instagram or Instagram. I think I think
Speaker 1: that she probably read that back and was like, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna run a risk of people saying me for the sentence.
Speaker 1: But but I genuinely no, I genuinely believe that it's
Speaker 1: it's a funny line. But I do think she believes
Speaker 1: it because I think that ultimately, like she just wishes
Speaker 1: that someone like that could have had a voice of
Speaker 1: her own, of course, but let's just kind of I
Speaker 1: don't know, for context, I guess if it if it
Speaker 1: matters like that's still happening with Megan Markle, still happening
Speaker 1: in some way where she's being fucking destroyed by the
Speaker 1: British tablet media. Yeah, well they're so vicious. I mean,
Speaker 1: they're terrible. If if you think that they're bad in
Speaker 1: America or have been bad in America, they are out
Speaker 1: for blood in the UK. I mean it is it
Speaker 1: is relentless, and they are not happy until someone like
Speaker 1: really crashes and burns. And it's really really fucking dark,
Speaker 1: and it's also incredibly racist. So um, that is also
Speaker 1: at the heart of so many of the attacks that
Speaker 1: she has faced over the years. Mariah Carey and I
Speaker 1: also thought, I'm so curious to hear what you thought of,
Speaker 1: you know, just how huge apart her biracial nous played
Speaker 1: in everything, Like just hearing about how she didn't feel
Speaker 1: like she belonged with literally anyone throughout her childhood. I
Speaker 1: believe it. I believe it, and I honestly in the
Speaker 1: sense strange maybe, but looking at the photos that are
Speaker 1: in the end, that are in the book if you
Speaker 1: buy the hard copy, I look at this photos and
Speaker 1: I'm like, that's a sad kid. Do you know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying, Yes, that's a sad fucking kid. And I
Speaker 1: know that sounds like scared kid. It's a scared kid.
Speaker 1: And I believe I. I believe it when and even
Speaker 1: when she was a teenager, because because you think, if
Speaker 1: you if you want to go backwards and try to
Speaker 1: entrapolate and think of Mariah Carry as she was before
Speaker 1: she was famous, and you you you're also you're picturing
Speaker 1: maybe some model of like the glamorous version of Maria
Speaker 1: Carry that we all know now, because if you even
Speaker 1: see these photos of her as a teen and she's
Speaker 1: still like she still seems like a little in her
Speaker 1: shell and a little sheltered and just like and she
Speaker 1: went to beauty school and then she kind of like
Speaker 1: had fun with her look, but it's still like she
Speaker 1: was she was holding these terrible heavy things in her
Speaker 1: with coming from a broken family, just being by Rachiel,
Speaker 1: having these siblings who were, um, you know, sort of
Speaker 1: broken in their ways. It was just really heavy, just
Speaker 1: really heavy. And and of course, and and the moment
Speaker 1: that a lot of people have talked about, especially interviews
Speaker 1: with her over this um book releases, UM, you know
Speaker 1: that moment when she goes to sleepover in the Hampton's
Speaker 1: and these girls lock her in the room and just
Speaker 1: chant the end word at her. She basically thought she
Speaker 1: was going to hang out with friends. She thought she
Speaker 1: maybe finally was going to fit in with this group
Speaker 1: of white girls that she went to school with. And Um,
Speaker 1: they didn't. They weren't explicitly privy to the fact that
Speaker 1: she her father was black, because Maria, I wi should
Speaker 1: just say she has a black father, she hasn't Irish mother, um,
Speaker 1: which presents a lot of very interesting and sort of
Speaker 1: tragic consequences later, um, when Mariah's mother weaponizes her privilege
Speaker 1: against her family and many many very crazy ways. UM.
Speaker 1: But I think there was something goes on where, um,
Speaker 1: the girls that she's hanging out with find out that
Speaker 1: she's part black, and they essentially bum rush her, like
Speaker 1: by hounding her like a corner and her in a
Speaker 1: closet and screaming like the N word, and her traumatizing
Speaker 1: her for years, and she says she blocked it out
Speaker 1: until she was writing the book. Yeah, yeah, and this
Speaker 1: is I was watching the beginnings of her UM the
Speaker 1: Oprah Conversation on Apple TV plus Fabulous Interview. I haven't
Speaker 1: finished it, but Oprah, Star of Deer, We Love Dear,
Speaker 1: Star of Dear Oprah, Oprah and UM Like, I think
Speaker 1: like one of the first things they talk about is
Speaker 1: how Mariah Well Oprah is like, you know, you talk,
Speaker 1: you kind of like air out a lot of the
Speaker 1: conflicts you've had in your life. And then Maria goes, well,
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm just writing two things where the
Speaker 1: where someone else drew first blood. And I'm like, yes,
Speaker 1: that is actually completely correct. And I don't think it's
Speaker 1: one of those things where it's like, oh, she's framing
Speaker 1: it like she's being revision revisionist in whatever way to
Speaker 1: make it seem like she's been victimized her whole life now.
Speaker 1: But it's this thing where her family was exploiting her,
Speaker 1: the industry was exploiting her, I mean, the press, whatever.
Speaker 1: But it's like but then but down to like these
Speaker 1: like core things where she was she was experiencing racism, poverty,
Speaker 1: you know, divorce in all of these like different dynamics.
Speaker 1: I don't know, that's just that that that just has
Speaker 1: to be considered anytime you think about Maria carry I
Speaker 1: think that, Yeah. And you know another thing that's in
Speaker 1: the book and couldn't possibly have been planned for this moment,
Speaker 1: but couldn't feel more oppression in this moment is her
Speaker 1: families unfortunately repeated experiences is where police would come to
Speaker 1: their host house because her black father would get into
Speaker 1: physical altercations with her darker skin but still bi racial brother.
Speaker 1: And she says in the book that the calling of
Speaker 1: the police, which often was her mother um doing that
Speaker 1: would almost always heighten the violence and almost always aggravate
Speaker 1: the situation because another reason reason I sort of I
Speaker 1: feel like I understand her on a deeper level too,
Speaker 1: is she is from Long Island. And I can tell
Speaker 1: you Long Island is extremely segregated. And I can't express
Speaker 1: this enough, Like people that live there don't really understand
Speaker 1: that that's what it is because they think the word
Speaker 1: segregation and they think people people. The people that live
Speaker 1: there don't understand what you're saying. I don't think they do.
Speaker 1: I don't think a lot of people that live there
Speaker 1: and haven't left, I don't think they would use the
Speaker 1: words segregated to explain how Long Island is made up.
Speaker 1: I really don't. But that's exactly what it is. Is.
Speaker 1: I mean, like, wealthier people live in some areas and
Speaker 1: they're white, and like, then there are the quote unquote
Speaker 1: bad areas of of Long Island, and this is the
Speaker 1: way it's said to you as a white kid, and
Speaker 1: those are the oftentimes it's the inner part of the island.
Speaker 1: It's the like parts that are not by the water,
Speaker 1: and those are the places where it's mostly black people
Speaker 1: or people of color. And I don't think that people
Speaker 1: really understand that live there, just how much there of
Speaker 1: racial division that there is. And so in reading this,
Speaker 1: I was thinking to myself, like Jesus, like what that
Speaker 1: must have been like to live in a predominantly, extremely
Speaker 1: predominantly white place and be the one like mixed race family.
Speaker 1: It's just and then the police get called and you've
Speaker 1: got violent people in the house, and the one police officer,
Speaker 1: she says, said to the other one, it'll be a
Speaker 1: miracle if this kid survives, and it kind of is
Speaker 1: it'll be a miracle if this kid makes it. I
Speaker 1: think I remember thinking like, oh, like, that's such an
Speaker 1: interesting like way of that's such a whatever like linguistic
Speaker 1: I don't know if you wanna call it that thing
Speaker 1: where it's like, oh, she makes that, she survives, she
Speaker 1: makes it, she like succeeds as an artist. I think
Speaker 1: that this this actually this was the moment where her
Speaker 1: brother pushes her mother as hard mother and the wall
Speaker 1: and her mother just laid there in a slump and
Speaker 1: there had been a loud crack, and he leaves the house,
Speaker 1: and she gets on the phone and calls a family friend,
Speaker 1: and she describes it as being in a sort of
Speaker 1: paralysis and she just mustered enough emotional energy to call
Speaker 1: the police. And this is just like this is where
Speaker 1: I say, like, you know, of course she was gravitated
Speaker 1: to a script like Precious and was so good in
Speaker 1: a film like that, because I don't think anyone really
Speaker 1: understood the specifics of what her life was. No, like
Speaker 1: I the witnessing of extreme violence like that in your
Speaker 1: own family and your own home, the lack of a
Speaker 1: safe space, anywhere has to damage you on a level
Speaker 1: that is unimaginable. Um. Yeah, I mean I grew up
Speaker 1: with a lot of fights amongst my parents and that
Speaker 1: they got violent, physical, and I mean that's that still stays.
Speaker 1: And it was nothing, it was nothing quite like what
Speaker 1: she experienced. Um, but it's still something that like it
Speaker 1: just it just like exceeds your own body and physical
Speaker 1: space in the way that like the scar tissue is
Speaker 1: just there. I cannot imagine. It's true, it etches into you,
Speaker 1: and for that to be repeated has to be like
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I I have the passage pulled up. Um.
Speaker 1: One of the cops looking down at me, but speaking
Speaker 1: to another cop asides and said, if this kid makes it,
Speaker 1: it'll be a miracle. And that night I became less
Speaker 1: of a kid and more of a miracle. Wow. I
Speaker 1: mean mean, yeah, if this kid makes it. I was
Speaker 1: just like, that's so interesting. But well, because the thing is, like,
Speaker 1: you can't talk about this book without talking about where
Speaker 1: she came from. And I was saying, like how on
Speaker 1: Long Islands we were talking about her biracial identity, and
Speaker 1: like how that can have been a comfortable place to
Speaker 1: be like in the early seventies on Long Island. We're
Speaker 1: being a We're being a biracial kid probably was so
Speaker 1: so such an anomaly, rare as fuck. Also, her mother
Speaker 1: being the song on Island for for wanting to be
Speaker 1: with a black man, like all of that, all this
Speaker 1: sort of shame that was hoisted upon probably every member
Speaker 1: of the family. Also, you know, Mariah being the closest
Speaker 1: child of the three to quote unquote passing as they say,
Speaker 1: the resentment that came from her toxic older siblings, and
Speaker 1: then you know, the brothers just a piece of fucking ship.
Speaker 1: And he ended up becoming a manipulative, toxic person who
Speaker 1: I couldn't believe was in her life for a song,
Speaker 1: as was the sister Allison. That is a whole fucking
Speaker 1: can of worms. That's tough. That's tough because she I mean,
Speaker 1: everyone in this story is sympathetic to some level, even
Speaker 1: even if there as despicable as Pat Allison and Morrigan.
Speaker 1: I feel like I feel like I'm sympathetic towards Allison.
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm sympathetic towards Morrigan. I feel like
Speaker 1: I'm sympathetic towards Maria's mother. I feel like these are
Speaker 1: these are like it's like I said, like there's some
Speaker 1: Morrison s quality, or there's just some tragic race trauma
Speaker 1: in all of this in her family. His I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, it's not as like sort
Speaker 1: of grandiose maybe in the way that Tony Morrison novels
Speaker 1: are and sort of sweeping and sort of biblical seeming almost.
Speaker 1: But it's like, but she she does have Maria does
Speaker 1: Pepper and scripture throughout the memoir does. Yeah, there's just
Speaker 1: something I don't feel like all of it is just
Speaker 1: so cinematic though, like, oh, it's gonna I I would
Speaker 1: see this becoming a mini series. Oh at some point absolutely,
Speaker 1: or maybe even like a television series to be honest
Speaker 1: with you, like, because there's so much in here, I
Speaker 1: don't think it could be just a movie. But um
Speaker 1: but um, I mean yes, I would agree. I Mean
Speaker 1: the thing is, they were all they were all living
Speaker 1: in that house. They were all having different experiences with
Speaker 1: that pain and that trauma, and they were all living
Speaker 1: identities or they all had identities that were outside the
Speaker 1: norm of the time, and not one of them had
Speaker 1: a safe space or a connection or someone to talk
Speaker 1: to or someone to understand them because there's so much
Speaker 1: difference in the five of them living in that family,
Speaker 1: there was no attempt to understand each other. Really, I
Speaker 1: think that unfortunately obviously, like the what goes unspoken in
Speaker 1: the book, and Mariah is upfront about not being able
Speaker 1: to speak for it, but is whatever happened to Allison
Speaker 1: when she went away with the first guy that she married.
Speaker 1: Um she comes back and is a completely different person,
Speaker 1: and that's when she starts exposing Maria to her friends
Speaker 1: that are drug dealers, exposing Maria to drugs, giving Mariah drugs,
Speaker 1: I mean, she gives her a valium at one point
Speaker 1: and she passes out at twelve years old and sinks
Speaker 1: into a couch. She tries to give her cocaine. She
Speaker 1: leaves her with someone that tries to coerce her into
Speaker 1: sex work, yes, and she she Maria as a young girl,
Speaker 1: is alone in a car with a much older man
Speaker 1: who kiss who tries to molest her, does molest her,
Speaker 1: and a man sees it. And at that point she
Speaker 1: is like aware of the fact that this was not normal,
Speaker 1: you know, but like true tragedy, like the stuff that
Speaker 1: she's going through in the beginning of this book, and
Speaker 1: you know, only with years of hindsight can you even
Speaker 1: begin to understand and unearthed that stuff. And you know,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm I'm happy for her that she's been able
Speaker 1: to do that, but Jesus Christ, it must have been
Speaker 1: hard to relive and write this. I mean, maybe like
Speaker 1: through this process she's really kind of like solidified her
Speaker 1: core or something. Because I because it's funny that she
Speaker 1: mentions in the book that Caution is her most critically
Speaker 1: acclaimed album, and I kind of am like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: that is interesting, and like we like the general consensus
Speaker 1: around Caution was that it was like one of like
Speaker 1: a real one of the best albums, but a solid
Speaker 1: Mariah Carey album. And even though it didn't have like
Speaker 1: exactly these these big like moments that these big sort
Speaker 1: of like you know, promotional moments on it, it was
Speaker 1: such a competent body of work just contained little like
Speaker 1: ten songs, ten songs just like her having fun with
Speaker 1: R and B, with hip hop, her collaborating with like
Speaker 1: Blood Orange or Deaf Hines and scrill X and like
Speaker 1: all these artists. Um, there's just there's just a competence.
Speaker 1: There's a serenity to her now and I think you're right,
Speaker 1: like she with what you were saying earlier, and she
Speaker 1: closes the book on her being happy. It's like she
Speaker 1: is at peace now, and I and that like that
Speaker 1: that's what gets me emotional, and that's what me emotional
Speaker 1: when I finish this. But even as someone who like
Speaker 1: I mean, Mariah has been a soundtrack to my life
Speaker 1: in the way that she's been the soundtrack to everyone's
Speaker 1: lives in Western culture. But I'm just like, oh, thank god,
Speaker 1: she's happy, you know. Well, That's That's something that I
Speaker 1: love about her now in the past ten years, is
Speaker 1: she is so funny in her music now, like GTFO
Speaker 1: being the first song on Caution, like in her kind
Speaker 1: of putting that out there is like a weird like
Speaker 1: faux first single and being like, yeah, why not, Like
Speaker 1: it's like really a funny song, and she's she's so
Speaker 1: funny in the song Obsessed from Memoirs. So funny she's
Speaker 1: she ever since Emancipation on you can tell like that
Speaker 1: Emancipation also involved like her finally being like I don't
Speaker 1: have to just write like longing songs, sad songs about whatever.
Speaker 1: She is so funny in a music video, right and
Speaker 1: dexterous like she and like obsessed. I love that the
Speaker 1: chorus is so long, like she can't stop going in
Speaker 1: on eminem on that song, like it's she was doing dag.
Speaker 1: She was doing very good Dragon of music videos Eminem.
Speaker 1: She also has a great reaction when the bus hits eminem.
Speaker 1: It's all it's all that that that music, that song
Speaker 1: is all mean girls. Oh it's the best. It's so funny.
Speaker 1: I love that she's just like that's the thing too,
Speaker 1: is like and when you were saying before about like
Speaker 1: stuff we've said on this podcast about like whatever sort
Speaker 1: of uh, speculating about what her actual personal life is,
Speaker 1: like like what's the deal going on with that billionaire
Speaker 1: she was marrying, Like what the funk happened on New
Speaker 1: Year's Eve? ETCETERA part of loving Mariah is having the
Speaker 1: sense of humor that you think she would have. So
Speaker 1: it's like you're not ever really laughing at her, but
Speaker 1: it's laughing with her because that's what sort of you know,
Speaker 1: gets her through stuff like this. And so I never
Speaker 1: feel bad about like, quote unquote having fun at the
Speaker 1: expense of things that happened to her, like because you
Speaker 1: have to be able to laugh and joke about it
Speaker 1: because ultimately, like Glitter was one of the toughest times
Speaker 1: of her life and that was so depressing for fans
Speaker 1: of hers that were hardcore fans of hers to watch happen.
Speaker 1: And now it's like we can truly laugh about it
Speaker 1: now because the lammley has so reclaimed that album. It's
Speaker 1: now on Spotify. It did go to number one on
Speaker 1: the charts, like a couple of years ago when they
Speaker 1: said justice for Glitter, like now we get to hear
Speaker 1: specifically about like the way that went down. It's just
Speaker 1: such an easy story to understand, Like something that a
Speaker 1: project that starts with substance, it gets noted to death
Speaker 1: by people who don't care about the project, will only
Speaker 1: care about making money, people who want her to funk up.
Speaker 1: Tommy Motola, I'm talking to you, like screwing up that
Speaker 1: project that maybe could have actually been good and isn't
Speaker 1: necessarily bad. It's not necessarily bad. I I just love
Speaker 1: that she has the full hindsight, closure whatever on Glitter,
Speaker 1: especially when she writes about it in this book where
Speaker 1: she was like and look and the fact now this
Speaker 1: is what I'm obsessed with, the fact that she still
Speaker 1: stands by the songs on the soundtrack. It's it's a
Speaker 1: great album, but she's like the rest of the world
Speaker 1: is not gonna win by like making fun of this
Speaker 1: movie and blah blah blah ha ha isn' it's such
Speaker 1: a train wreck this. I stand by the work. And
Speaker 1: the work for me was acting, which I'm very passionate about,
Speaker 1: and I like meticulously worked on to improve that. And
Speaker 1: I stand by the songwriting, which you know, almost twenty
Speaker 1: years later. What, however, many years later, was finally like
Speaker 1: finally achieved some recognition because of my fans coming together
Speaker 1: and and like and and achieving a common goal. And
Speaker 1: I think she makes the case throughout the entire book
Speaker 1: for some like class consciousness socialist ideal where the middle
Speaker 1: manager Fox, the capitalist class Fox, who are like the
Speaker 1: agents that Tommy Mttol's the world the record label exects
Speaker 1: who are like trying to like make money without lifting
Speaker 1: a fucking finger off of her are like trash and
Speaker 1: she's actually out there like being the laborer and do
Speaker 1: and actually like the way we talk about class conscious
Speaker 1: is like an airline pilot who makes like you know,
Speaker 1: a year, is more likely to support the unionizing efforts
Speaker 1: of like a working class person who makes forty because
Speaker 1: that airline pilot is also technically in the working class
Speaker 1: because he's he answers to some middle management, to some
Speaker 1: to some capitalist overlord who's just like, you do this,
Speaker 1: but I don't have to work. But you're the one
Speaker 1: who's doing the actual legwork. Mariah is like throughout the
Speaker 1: entire book, focusing on the work, laboring, laboring and finding
Speaker 1: fulfillment out of it, enjoy and also speaking to this
Speaker 1: collectivist thing where amazing things can happen if people just
Speaker 1: come together. The reason why all of them for Christmas,
Speaker 1: all I went for Christmas is you went to number
Speaker 1: one on the Billboard chart is because my fans came
Speaker 1: together and did that. It wasn't some promotional thing, it
Speaker 1: wasn't some like choreographed media thing. It was because a
Speaker 1: bunch of people were like, lamb did it again, she
Speaker 1: says again. And that's the thing too, is like um,
Speaker 1: when it comes to glitter and everything, like it really
Speaker 1: has stood the test of time because her fans are
Speaker 1: always going to watch a glitter like I'm always gonna
Speaker 1: watch like and the fact of the matter is like
Speaker 1: it sort of disappeared from the public consciousness. I don't
Speaker 1: know why. Obviously it was a huge flop, but I
Speaker 1: love when she says in the book like it wasn't
Speaker 1: that bad, and she's right, And also I thought it
Speaker 1: was so interesting. And here you go that she really
Speaker 1: wanted Terence Howard to be the lead in it, and
Speaker 1: they were like, no, we don't see how that would work,
Speaker 1: which is basically them saying like, we don't want a
Speaker 1: black lead. We don't want you up against up there
Speaker 1: with a black man like to be the romantic interest.
Speaker 1: And then she also says, by the way I envisioned
Speaker 1: him in this role before, yes, like she was so
Speaker 1: ahead of and she is, I believe, like so ahead
Speaker 1: of the curve. And it's always always like people being like,
Speaker 1: I don't know what are you talking about? This is
Speaker 1: this is this is a good segue into the O,
Speaker 1: D B of it all. So this is I think
Speaker 1: one of one of her best talents. She's obviously an
Speaker 1: incredible singer, she's an amazing composer, she's an amazing lyricist.
Speaker 1: Something that is a talent is understanding the pulse of
Speaker 1: pop culture better than anyone else. She said in the
Speaker 1: early nineties. By the way, anyone who will listen, the
Speaker 1: way that mainstream music is going, hip hop is going
Speaker 1: to be huge, I'm telling you, she says. She said
Speaker 1: at the time Vatola, he dismissed her. What are you
Speaker 1: talking about? He didn't understand it, so it couldn't possibly
Speaker 1: be true. He liked standards, he liked the ballance that
Speaker 1: she was doing. He understood that type of thing. Then
Speaker 1: she talks about being at that dinner with a bunch
Speaker 1: of their associates, and he asked her, what do you
Speaker 1: think of puff Daddy of Bad Boy Records, of this
Speaker 1: new movement that was p Diddy at the time, he
Speaker 1: was just kind of emerging as the superproducer. And she's
Speaker 1: very honest understanding that. In saying her honest opinion, she's
Speaker 1: sort of defying her husband, who's this extremely powerful man
Speaker 1: who's gonna who runs her career and her life at home.
Speaker 1: And she says, this is definitely the way that mainstream
Speaker 1: music is going, and what he's doing is very exciting
Speaker 1: and we should all be paying attention to it. Tany
Speaker 1: Motola gets up, makes a huge public scene at the restaurant,
Speaker 1: and thanks canceled. Thanksgiving is canceled. I just want to
Speaker 1: say Thanksgiving is canceled, which is so funny and stupid.
Speaker 1: But this is what I'm saying is it's like it
Speaker 1: stayed this way throughout the career and remains to this day.
Speaker 1: She still understands even as a fifty year old woman.
Speaker 1: Sorry to age her because she she's eternally twelve, but
Speaker 1: she still is making contemporary music that works. Caution, caution,
Speaker 1: excuse me. I just by the way, we cut out
Speaker 1: the part where I was choking on wine earlier. Guys,
Speaker 1: Really it was it was a whole moment if I
Speaker 1: won't get into it, but it just came back up
Speaker 1: and then it got caught. It went down the wrong pipe,
Speaker 1: you know. Relatable queen. Relatable queen we're talking about. We
Speaker 1: shouldn't cut it out because I'll tell you something. It's
Speaker 1: very well know. I'm being honest about it. And now
Speaker 1: I get to control the narrative. I don't want people
Speaker 1: to hear me fucking coughing up this orange wine. Honey. Okay,
Speaker 1: the first part of it can be cut. The second
Speaker 1: part I like, and I like it. I like it.
Speaker 1: But then, um, but what you were saying about the
Speaker 1: O D b of it all. That was one of
Speaker 1: my favorite chapters, one of my favorite chapters. And so
Speaker 1: like such a I love that she like blew up
Speaker 1: Tommy's spot with like once she got the O D
Speaker 1: B verse, she's flipping out. She's so excited, so excited
Speaker 1: and like one of the most like V definitive iconic
Speaker 1: like like rap verse featured raps on like that kind
Speaker 1: you know whatever. So and for it to be Mariah
Speaker 1: carry and O D B that no one would have
Speaker 1: ever thought that until that moment. But she was like
Speaker 1: she was like, I I love Wu Tang, Like, let's
Speaker 1: do it. But but for Tommy Mattold to be like
Speaker 1: I could, What the funk is this? I can do this.
Speaker 1: It's like you're a fucking idiot and you can, like
Speaker 1: you can swim in your stupid sea of Like no, no,
Speaker 1: they can't take that away from me, not to like
Speaker 1: shoot on standards, but it's like who cares? Who cares?
Speaker 1: And like and then and then for her, oh we
Speaker 1: gotta obsessed with her talking about at the time that
Speaker 1: Tupac said hi to her at the Grammys and the
Speaker 1: time that Biggie was Biggie was about to come in
Speaker 1: for the Honey remix. So she she she she got
Speaker 1: she was she she got admiration from both pasts. What
Speaker 1: a fucking I there you go. She And also you know,
Speaker 1: just like that. I loved the writing of the part
Speaker 1: where she finally hears the and in the audiobook, it's
Speaker 1: great because you actually can hear od be on it
Speaker 1: and you really understand, like I think someone someone who
Speaker 1: grew up with that song, like just that's one of
Speaker 1: those things you just kind of assumed was always there.
Speaker 1: No me and Mariah go back, like maybe it was
Speaker 1: a passing that that whole thing, even though New York
Speaker 1: in the house, etcetera, like all that like that is
Speaker 1: so and just that whole fantasy remix that is a
Speaker 1: moment in contemporary musical time, like truly stars aligning to
Speaker 1: make a classic. And she had to be flipping out
Speaker 1: as someone who wanted that's so badly to her thing
Speaker 1: and then you hear that think about being there and
Speaker 1: then unfortunately she didn't have a fucking husband and musical
Speaker 1: partner who could appreciate that. That's when she had to
Speaker 1: know it was over totally. I mean, I love in
Speaker 1: the book she's like, it's so random that ODB just went, um,
Speaker 1: I'm a little bit country and then maybe like baby
Speaker 1: maybe it's just so and it just leads so perfectly
Speaker 1: right into the Mariah vocal. It's like, what a perfect
Speaker 1: what a visionary to like try us that that would
Speaker 1: work to be to push for that and be like no,
Speaker 1: I'm picking O d B. And I'm and it's gonna
Speaker 1: be like us at like you know, the Carnival or whatever,
Speaker 1: like the music videos like them at the Carnival. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: they're right, Playland, Yes, that's right there, theme Park. And
Speaker 1: so I just admired that vision, maybe not above all
Speaker 1: else in her artistry, but it's like it's such an
Speaker 1: important element to like Mariah Carey the artists that it's
Speaker 1: just like, oh, like that's that's priceless, like that that
Speaker 1: comes along like once in a generation maybe I don't know.
Speaker 1: And she'd replicate it so many times. I mean, like
Speaker 1: that's another thing about when you look with Kanye and
Speaker 1: with like with Kanye, with jay Z and Heartbreaker, with
Speaker 1: all these things you know, like etcetera, etcetera. She's just
Speaker 1: done it so many times. Like and also one of
Speaker 1: my favorite songs on Caution is the Distance, which she
Speaker 1: has ty Dolla sign on, and like that song is
Speaker 1: fucking great and I would recommend that people revisit. And also, um,
Speaker 1: I mean literally another part about this whole last week
Speaker 1: and a half, as I've been reading this and listening
Speaker 1: to the audiobook, it's only been Maria music for me,
Speaker 1: and it's been so nice because I love it so much,
Speaker 1: because it is timeless and even her more recent albums
Speaker 1: that do have the more um more like sort of
Speaker 1: frivolous quote unquote content, like you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Like she's being funny, she's not. It's not super taking
Speaker 1: itself super seriously. It's still when you listen to it
Speaker 1: is like top Deer. It really is like even like me,
Speaker 1: I am Maria the Elusive shantus like it's got a
Speaker 1: goofy fucking title, very good off that track. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: there there's like so much good stuff on there. And
Speaker 1: I think that it was named something so crazy that
Speaker 1: people sort of wrote it off and maybe it doesn't
Speaker 1: need another name if I'm too criticized, but but um,
Speaker 1: but really it's so good that's underrated equals MC square.
Speaker 1: It is fucking great. And emancipation of Mimi Emancipation of
Speaker 1: MEMI like that is. It's one of the best albums ever.
Speaker 1: Every song is class, every song was classic. I love
Speaker 1: I Gassed when she was like kind of like going
Speaker 1: through all the tracks. But then she goes, your Girl
Speaker 1: should have been a single, and I was like, yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: because I thought this for years and I had just
Speaker 1: like I listened to Emancipation the other week and you
Speaker 1: and I connectually. We were like, oh my god, literally,
Speaker 1: sister life hashtag hashtag sister life. I was listening to
Speaker 1: your Girl. I put it on my stories and you're like, literally, sister,
Speaker 1: I forgot how good that song is. Your Girl is
Speaker 1: not a joke. And then she she does say she's
Speaker 1: so good, and then like she says, like people don't
Speaker 1: really know how much I love that song. I should
Speaker 1: have been a single. One I did. I almost crashed
Speaker 1: my car when I was driving. I was like, yes,
Speaker 1: but but the thing is about that album is that
Speaker 1: album was made of hits like stay the Night. That
Speaker 1: song was epic, say something I actually think was released
Speaker 1: as a single, but like a later one, it didn't
Speaker 1: really hit. But so much stuff on that album, and
Speaker 1: then obviously all the hit she did have and she
Speaker 1: of course did the rerelease with Don't Forget About It,
Speaker 1: which is so good just that album is, and that
Speaker 1: album also means a ton to me because that album
Speaker 1: came out of two thousand five, and I remember that
Speaker 1: that was like yeah, so basically I think it was
Speaker 1: freshman freshman year. The summer of freshman year. I was
Speaker 1: listening to it a lot because I was at a
Speaker 1: cross country camp and like I said, it was hard
Speaker 1: for me to make new friends because I was so anxious,
Speaker 1: and I just would put my walkman on on the
Speaker 1: buses to like, uh practices and stuff like that, and
Speaker 1: I would just listen to Emancipation the whole way through,
Speaker 1: like shake it Off was slapping so hard at that time,
Speaker 1: Oh my god, just like so good and so fun.
Speaker 1: It's like that, like I feel like it's like an
Speaker 1: up tempo sort of like club moment, but it really
Speaker 1: is the like, um, the melody of it is so creative,
Speaker 1: we blown together. I mean, it's such a classic. I
Speaker 1: think that is track for track my favorite album album.
Speaker 1: It's so good. It's so good. But also this sounds weird,
Speaker 1: but Caution has a very special place in my heart.
Speaker 1: Like so good as an album that works that just
Speaker 1: I don't know, and I this sounds weird, but like
Speaker 1: as an album that is such a clean, confident like
Speaker 1: way of like lifting Mariah from two or yeah, lifting
Speaker 1: Maria from two five and then like dropping her and
Speaker 1: it's sort of still retaining that DNA. I'm just like, Oh,
Speaker 1: that's like really fucking impressive that you still made this
Speaker 1: work like whatever, like thirteen years later. You know, it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: you're this is timeless. This is timeless. This is like
Speaker 1: what I'm getting at. It's like, this is this is
Speaker 1: a timeless, all time great artist, all timer The fact
Speaker 1: that that album was so roundly ignored by the Grammys,
Speaker 1: like caution, yeah, You're right, it's so pathetic. It's so pathetic.
Speaker 1: And the fact that she's only one five go I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: go back and listen to you're gonna give out Pop
Speaker 1: Vocal Grammys and you're gonna and Fantasy is not rewarded.
Speaker 1: You're gonna give out pop vocal Grammys, and Heartbreaker is
Speaker 1: not going to be rewarded. Even though the entire end
Speaker 1: are those three that that that like laid over those
Speaker 1: three vocal tracks which are made of her song. Her
Speaker 1: voice is unbelievable. The fact that she can just decide
Speaker 1: what VERSU melody she's gonna do and it works. At
Speaker 1: any time you're gonna give out vocal Grammys and only
Speaker 1: have Mariah have a couple, fuck you actually up the ass.
Speaker 1: It's so ridiculous, it's crazy disrespectful, and the Grammys are canceled.
Speaker 1: And this is my thing is it's like, if Billie
Speaker 1: Eilish can win in No Shade, and if she can
Speaker 1: win in one year what Mariah has in her entire
Speaker 1: career years, get the funk out of here. I want
Speaker 1: to talk about lover Boy. I want to talk about
Speaker 1: the j lo of it all for just yeah, let's chat.
Speaker 1: I mean, let's do it. You wait, was this do
Speaker 1: we did? We get this on the on the record,
Speaker 1: you are on you you have a hot take on this,
Speaker 1: my hot no this. So before we started, Bone was saying,
Speaker 1: you know, because we're listening to the rarities as well,
Speaker 1: which is fantastic. I love that she's sang out here
Speaker 1: on my own. I love that song on such a
Speaker 1: classic old Irenekara song from the Fame soundtrack, which is
Speaker 1: recorded in two thousand. She because she's saying it when
Speaker 1: she was young. At a talent show, we were saying
Speaker 1: Bone was talking about the lover Boy original mix that
Speaker 1: she was gonna do and put on the it was
Speaker 1: gonna be liter the song and Glitter, and then Tommy
Speaker 1: Motola because they had been divorced at this point, he
Speaker 1: was working with Jennifer Lopez and well after Mariah had
Speaker 1: done all of this work on Loverboy with the sample
Speaker 1: that she wanted, he took it and gave it to
Speaker 1: j LO, who was also on the label, and he
Speaker 1: basically was just like you went behind Maria's back and
Speaker 1: sucked her up creatively full context. Glitter was was distributed
Speaker 1: by Sony. Mantola was still working at Sony was able
Speaker 1: to see the dailies and was able to see I
Speaker 1: guess maybe not the dailies, but like the tracks. So
Speaker 1: like Tommy Amatola got got his hands on lover Boy,
Speaker 1: which has this yellow light orchestra sample. It's so good,
Speaker 1: so good, and like Mariah picked hand picked it out herself. Um,
Speaker 1: I think with Jermaine Deprade maybe, um, probably so. Then
Speaker 1: first so Tommy Motola fuctor over twice in this first
Speaker 1: gives the sample to JLS like here record this song UM,
Speaker 1: and then it turns out to be I'm Reel. It
Speaker 1: uses that UM sample, but it's not the jaw Rule remix.
Speaker 1: It's I'm Real but it's like really sort of upbeat
Speaker 1: and peppie and has this disco sample. And then when
Speaker 1: um Mariah is is laying down vocals with draw Rule
Speaker 1: and this duet for the Glitter soundtrack, Tommy Motola gets
Speaker 1: wind of that then tells Jlo's people, Hey, got put
Speaker 1: jaw Rule on this. Let's just remix I'm Real with
Speaker 1: that sample, with it, with this, with that song that
Speaker 1: has that old, that old sample that I told you
Speaker 1: guys abou So if I was Mariah Carrey and my
Speaker 1: art had been violated like that and just so nakedly
Speaker 1: sabotaged in that way, I would I would have ended
Speaker 1: up in a facility like the way I would. I
Speaker 1: would have been yeah, institutionalized. Yeah, I would have ended
Speaker 1: up the same place she would have been, like you know,
Speaker 1: like one. And the thing is to also know that
Speaker 1: she is responsible for and labors over, as you said,
Speaker 1: that music, and to give it to an artist like
Speaker 1: Jlo who no shade, but it's just not she's not
Speaker 1: artistically involved musically in that way, it's just not what
Speaker 1: she does. She does something different and she does it
Speaker 1: really well, but it's it's it's the lowest blow, especially
Speaker 1: because he wanted to funk her up because he wanted
Speaker 1: to in any way stop the success of an acting
Speaker 1: project that she had, because he was always forbidding her
Speaker 1: to act, take acting lessons, etcetera. God. So, so then
Speaker 1: we were talking before we started, and you were you
Speaker 1: were kind of saying that you that do you that
Speaker 1: you like this lover boy that that's on the rarities.
Speaker 1: I love this lover boy on the rareas I never
Speaker 1: really like. I mean, the lover boy on the Glitter
Speaker 1: soundtrack is fun, but you could you could tell it
Speaker 1: was just like a little too like Frankenstein out of
Speaker 1: like other beats and stuff, and there's like three different
Speaker 1: features on it. I was just like, it just felt
Speaker 1: like it's just like a very chaotic Mariah song to me.
Speaker 1: Um and and it alway always stayed out to me
Speaker 1: that way. I was like, Okay, this is not I
Speaker 1: was like, this is not what the original intended work was,
Speaker 1: do you know what I'm saying. I always had that
Speaker 1: suspicion for me I'm gonna go ahead and agree with
Speaker 1: Maria that the that the cameo version of lover Boy
Speaker 1: is better, Like I do. I actually think that that
Speaker 1: every the stars aligned here and we ended up with
Speaker 1: a better lover boy, I mean, a lover and well
Speaker 1: much like a daddy. She does that, yeah, but she does,
Speaker 1: but like it works with this, Like don't don't like
Speaker 1: the calic cameo thing, Like I just love it. I
Speaker 1: just think it's so fun and eighties and yes it
Speaker 1: is chaotic, but that to me makes it like more
Speaker 1: the genre and more the vibe. Like I just don't
Speaker 1: see I guess, like I hear that Loverboy cameo version
Speaker 1: that we all know, and I feel like this sounds
Speaker 1: like a hit song in the movie, like the movie
Speaker 1: needed it to be like or whatever, and like had
Speaker 1: it been the other song, it's like a little bit
Speaker 1: more like down tempo, It's like a little bit more.
Speaker 1: It just doesn't feel as much like it's suiting the
Speaker 1: purpose that the lover Boy with cameo needed to. I
Speaker 1: still like it, But so the Loverboy love Both cameo
Speaker 1: version is why did you do that? Like it had
Speaker 1: to be a successful song in the world of the
Speaker 1: movie and the lover Boy original Firecracker mix is um
Speaker 1: like the Cure where it's like it doesn't really make
Speaker 1: sense in the film. Okay that that I will say.
Speaker 1: My hot take is I do love I'm real withdraw
Speaker 1: roule by j Loo. And this is the thing. I
Speaker 1: think it's important to say that it's not Jia is
Speaker 1: Mariah and it's but like Mariah has every right to
Speaker 1: like not know j loever. Um, but I feel like
Speaker 1: it's a thing where again it's this, it's some capitalist
Speaker 1: class motherfucker who's pitting these who's pitting these and created
Speaker 1: conflict intention whether there didn't need to be, undermining solidarity
Speaker 1: between artists and is being like fully neoliberal Margaret Thatcher asked, motherfucker,
Speaker 1: and is like pitting these people against each other. The
Speaker 1: thing about Mariah is she can't help herself. She can't.
Speaker 1: She has been asked about j Lo many times over
Speaker 1: the past twenty years or whatever, and she's always shady
Speaker 1: and borderline. She even has got she even has said
Speaker 1: things like she's not a singer, etcetera. Whatever. But the
Speaker 1: fact of the matter is that's another reason why we
Speaker 1: love Mariah. She cannot help herself. When she thinks of
Speaker 1: a funny, smart thing, she's gonna say it, and yone,
Speaker 1: it's like yeah, and you can't touch her ultimately at
Speaker 1: the end of the day. So it's like for me,
Speaker 1: I forgive her for anything she's done. That's like super
Speaker 1: sady and I I will say this. She she again
Speaker 1: could not help herself when she said at the end
Speaker 1: of that chapter and at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: lover Boy was the best selling single of the year.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm real, I know. I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I mean, but this is the thing. Though I didn't
Speaker 1: know about all this. I really did like the research
Speaker 1: after I read that that chapter because I did not
Speaker 1: know that that was that, that was all happening. That
Speaker 1: was the catalyst. Yeah, honestly. And I even went back
Speaker 1: and watched, like, you know, the dumb YouTube videos are
Speaker 1: like Shadius Maria moments. I said out loud, it all
Speaker 1: makes sense, all makes sense now, and we loved, we
Speaker 1: loved j Lo on this spot, of course. But it's
Speaker 1: also I see, I see why Maria feels this way. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, for me, it's just like it's
Speaker 1: so weird that they're so constantly in conflict like in
Speaker 1: the media, because they're so different, they have nothing in common.
Speaker 1: Like there, I guess they're the same sorry generation generated action.
Speaker 1: Like I guess they've been successful through the same periods
Speaker 1: of time. And I think, honestly, what binds them the
Speaker 1: most is that people keep sucking needing them to be
Speaker 1: in the same conversation. Let's stop. That's the thing. I
Speaker 1: don't think so honey, doing the Maria Versjlo of at all,
Speaker 1: because ultimately there's no competition because one of them is
Speaker 1: extremely talented in one way, one of them is extremely
Speaker 1: talented in another. You know, Jlo is a dancer and
Speaker 1: performer and actress. Mariah is a composer and singer and
Speaker 1: and musical actress and actress. And let's talk about the
Speaker 1: acting a little bit, because one thing I loved was
Speaker 1: the chapter where she talks about when Tommy Matola finally
Speaker 1: allowed her to take an acting class and she meets
Speaker 1: with this very like very well characterized in the book,
Speaker 1: kind of cookie acting teacher. It's like draped in fabrics
Speaker 1: and smells like essential oils or whatever and tells your
Speaker 1: lay on the ground and like relax and go to
Speaker 1: her safe place and she can't find a safe place,
Speaker 1: and she has a she has like a real physical
Speaker 1: breakdown because she's realizing she doesn't know even how to
Speaker 1: pretend to feel relaxed and safe. This to me was like,
Speaker 1: this is someone who has been psychologically tortured. And that's
Speaker 1: something that I think is like pretty explicitly stated without
Speaker 1: being without being explicitly stated in the book, is like,
Speaker 1: she was psychologically abused for years by Tommy Mottola years
Speaker 1: her her whole life, her whole fucking life. She did
Speaker 1: not have a memory of a safe place to go to.
Speaker 1: I think that was even one of the drilled down
Speaker 1: layers was the acting teacher was like, Okay, but what
Speaker 1: about in your past? And she was like I still
Speaker 1: like she was, She's like, I still don't have that
Speaker 1: place that I have no memory of feeling safe. How
Speaker 1: sad is that? You know? Which makes which makes the
Speaker 1: end of the book when she says she can finally
Speaker 1: sit down and she has the kids and she's had
Speaker 1: a nice Christmas, because that's another part of the book
Speaker 1: is her fascination with Christmas is sort of explored and
Speaker 1: explained because she never had a real family Christmas. She
Speaker 1: always wanted to have the family have a nice Christmas together,
Speaker 1: but always interrupted in violence or arguing or whatever the fuck.
Speaker 1: And she in her adult life because she has clung
Speaker 1: to the inner child, which is I think another reason
Speaker 1: why I love her so is she refuses to lose that,
Speaker 1: and I think it's something that everyone could learn from.
Speaker 1: In some elements, she says her fascination with Christmas and
Speaker 1: the need to be joyful around Christmas and celebrate is
Speaker 1: because she never had that. And so at the end
Speaker 1: of the book, when she's at peace after the concert,
Speaker 1: like I think it was a New Year's concert or something,
Speaker 1: and she's looking out at every all of her fans
Speaker 1: that had been there and the people that have worked
Speaker 1: with her that have been there and stuff, and she's
Speaker 1: finally sitting there and everyone's retired to their rooms, and
Speaker 1: the kids are safe and happy, and um, they've had
Speaker 1: like a festive moment, if you will. Um, she's able
Speaker 1: to sit there and she's able to have a quiet
Speaker 1: moment with herself, and she says, I am peaceful, I
Speaker 1: am complete, and that like just gave me. I was
Speaker 1: just so moved by this because it was really it
Speaker 1: was really hard one because the whole book leads up
Speaker 1: to that because the whole book you're sort of held
Speaker 1: at the point of like you're held at the question
Speaker 1: of is she has she ever felt happiness? Like you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know. That sounds like a little extreme undermatic. Well,
Speaker 1: she describes that as like being a difficult thing for
Speaker 1: her because she also talks a lot about how she
Speaker 1: genuinely believed when she married Tommy Motola this was a
Speaker 1: price she had to pay for success, that you could
Speaker 1: not both have success and happiness. It didn't exist like
Speaker 1: like almost the universe was saying to her, we'll give
Speaker 1: you success, you'll never have happiness, Like it didn't seem
Speaker 1: like a possibility to her realistically with the way that
Speaker 1: her her life was panning out, and she genuinely did
Speaker 1: believe that she'd be married to Tommy Metola forever because
Speaker 1: she thought, this is what it is, like, I'll be
Speaker 1: taken care of. This guy does get me musically, and
Speaker 1: we do have that connection. It's just that I would
Speaker 1: be romantically happy. And also it's there an element of
Speaker 1: that is her not actually understanding what it is to
Speaker 1: be romantically fulfilled, sexually fulfilled, you know, emotionally fulfilled, never
Speaker 1: so it's not like she knew she was missing something,
Speaker 1: you know, she just thought this must be the way
Speaker 1: life is. She understood that trade off, or thought she
Speaker 1: understood it right right where. She thought that was the
Speaker 1: implicit thing. I think that her obsession with Christmas is
Speaker 1: so is like I mean, thank God for that. You know.
Speaker 1: It's like it's so like we've only reaped the benefits
Speaker 1: of her obsession with Christmas. I feel, oh absolutely. I mean,
Speaker 1: when you hear the song all I Want from Christmas
Speaker 1: is you you feel like Christmas, you know what I mean, Like,
Speaker 1: I think it's the best Christmas song of all time.
Speaker 1: I would say, I would say it's it's got the
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's so funny because she did write
Speaker 1: it so quickly. She says like it was like an
Speaker 1: hour and a half or so that she wrote it in.
Speaker 1: But to me, it's just like that's so like of course,
Speaker 1: because it is so pure, you know, it's upbeat, it's happy,
Speaker 1: it's expressing um a need for connection during Christmas. It's
Speaker 1: it's not about material things. In fact, it's like um
Speaker 1: issuing commercial like pursuits into material things. It's just about
Speaker 1: all I want for Christmas, is you that person that
Speaker 1: makes me happy? And that's what I That's what I
Speaker 1: really want, truly deep down in my heart. And you
Speaker 1: can anyone can sing it, even if you're not someone
Speaker 1: that really celebrates Christmas like I feel like, it does
Speaker 1: have a spirit to it. It's spirited, it's happy, it's jubilant.
Speaker 1: It is that feeling of Christmas, and it's to me.
Speaker 1: I would I would, I would say it is the
Speaker 1: best Christmas song. Wow. And there are some fun things
Speaker 1: to expect from Matt Rogers and his Christmas music were
Speaker 1: more No, because it won't be this year, but anyway, yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I mean things are happening, but maybe maybe that this year.
Speaker 1: Definitely not this year, but anyway, we're visiting that later. Um.
Speaker 1: But yes, so what what if you had to say
Speaker 1: your favorite thing about as we sort of we're an
Speaker 1: hour an hour sixty. I could talk about this forever.
Speaker 1: And that's another thing about the book is when it ended,
Speaker 1: I was so depressed. All I want to do is
Speaker 1: to talk. But you know, it was so funny when
Speaker 1: she does, she very briefly touches on the New Year's
Speaker 1: Eve debacle. And I say debacle because she says not
Speaker 1: all tobaccos are created equal. Darling in the book, which
Speaker 1: I loved, but I loved when she said it's gonna
Speaker 1: be hard for me to find right now. But basically
Speaker 1: what she says is like she likens it too when
Speaker 1: you're a little kid and you get your eye, you
Speaker 1: get sand in your eye on the sandbox, and then
Speaker 1: you leave, go on, do your life, become a doctor,
Speaker 1: like be really successful. Um we we we can into this.
Speaker 1: I found I found the passage. Say the passage, yet
Speaker 1: you can say, you're obviously going to read it better
Speaker 1: than I can remember it well. She's talking about like
Speaker 1: the risks of singing the cold, and she's talking about
Speaker 1: Luther Andrews was the first startist to warm me the
Speaker 1: risk of singing the cold. There's a certain performance of
Speaker 1: mine in the Bitter Cold wearing a sheer bedazzle leotard
Speaker 1: and eight in Glubaton's at the World's Busiest Intersection, etcetera, etcetera.
Speaker 1: To me, it's as if I was a child playing
Speaker 1: in the sandbox and I got stand in my eye,
Speaker 1: wept theatrically and caused a scene, and then arrived twenty
Speaker 1: years later at my class room, and after I had,
Speaker 1: after having gotten a PhD and become a celebrated scholar,
Speaker 1: only have my classmates asked, oh, but how's your eye?
Speaker 1: I was a lot of things in that fleeting moment
Speaker 1: in the cold, but I knew one thing certainly, I
Speaker 1: was not I was not broken, not even close. I
Speaker 1: had been through so much worse. All debacles are not
Speaker 1: created equal dotted. So she reads that in the audiobook,
Speaker 1: and after she says that, but how's your eye, she
Speaker 1: cracks up and they have to cut the take and
Speaker 1: she starts again. It's just so funny and so real,
Speaker 1: and you can tell it really doesn't matter to her,
Speaker 1: but I remember it mattered so fucking much to the
Speaker 1: whole world. Like no one could stop talking about that
Speaker 1: for like a week, and I was just like shut up,
Speaker 1: Like and you know what, I don't even know what
Speaker 1: we said on this podcast at that time. I'm sure
Speaker 1: we touched on it, but it's like I was saying before,
Speaker 1: It's like part of loving Mariah is is being able
Speaker 1: to make jokes about it all, you know, And we've
Speaker 1: even joked about Bianca as if it's like she like
Speaker 1: very she very seriously took on this like ultra ego.
Speaker 1: But it's like, no, she was. She realized how dumber.
Speaker 1: She's a goof. She's a goof. She's fun. The fact
Speaker 1: that she even wrote music like alternative rock music sung
Speaker 1: through Bianca, it's like, what a dedication to your craft
Speaker 1: tree to like create this fictional character and then like
Speaker 1: fill her creative life out with her own songs that
Speaker 1: that are that are differentiated from your own. Like, that's amazing,
Speaker 1: that's great. Did you see what I texted you, um
Speaker 1: about the emancipation of it all? She says, um Um,
Speaker 1: emancipation was an amazing time, and it was amazing time
Speaker 1: for my fans. They need to see me succeed, They
Speaker 1: needed to see me come back like that. I agree,
Speaker 1: that was an amazing moment in that culture. That's one
Speaker 1: of the best that culture moments in history. And honestly,
Speaker 1: I'll never forget how triumphant it felt because because here's
Speaker 1: the thing, like through the glitter of it all. I
Speaker 1: think I told this on the podcast, but the day
Speaker 1: the album came out was nine eleven, and she actually
Speaker 1: talks very vividly about how when she saw the towers fall,
Speaker 1: she was in that detox rehab center that her brother
Speaker 1: basically fooled her into going too because she thought it
Speaker 1: was a spot. She really didn't need a detox freehab center.
Speaker 1: She was just exhausted from sleeping two hours and six
Speaker 1: days during the glitter promotion cycle. Psycho Um, but she
Speaker 1: says that's where she watched the towers fall down, and
Speaker 1: I actually, I mean this is true the day of
Speaker 1: nine eleven, and it was scary to live in the
Speaker 1: Tri State area on nine eleven, like that was that
Speaker 1: was really a very dark day. But I had been
Speaker 1: living for that. I remember it was Tuesday, September eleven.
Speaker 1: This is a music came out on Tuesdays. I said, Mom,
Speaker 1: today after school, we're gonna go get Mariah's glitter. You
Speaker 1: told me that we could, and she was like, yes,
Speaker 1: of course. And then not an hour and a half later,
Speaker 1: I'm getting picked up from school early, Like it's really weird.
Speaker 1: Like I just got there and my mother was like,
Speaker 1: we gotta go home. There's something happening, etcetera. And that's when, um,
Speaker 1: you know, an eleven year old me was sort of
Speaker 1: realizing what was happening, but I still was like my
Speaker 1: security blanket at that time was gonna be that album,
Speaker 1: regardless of any national tragedy. I was like, you know
Speaker 1: you will take me to the to the CD store
Speaker 1: to get this album. I was hit in hysteric and
Speaker 1: you did buy it. She was like they're gonna be closed.
Speaker 1: I was like, we have to go. So we get there,
Speaker 1: they're closing and the people they're like teens that were
Speaker 1: working at the store were like, um, we're closing because
Speaker 1: of nine eleven. Like as it was happening, my mother
Speaker 1: was like police, like he won't. I knew they needed.
Speaker 1: They knew to call at nine eleven on the day. No,
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, like obviously, but it was so they
Speaker 1: were like, we can't do this right now, and I
Speaker 1: was just I think they saw in my eyes that
Speaker 1: I was such a gay kid that my mother, my
Speaker 1: poor mother would not gay kids. They knew my mother
Speaker 1: couldn't deal with nine eleven and me that day if
Speaker 1: I didn't have Maria. So they said, they said, let's
Speaker 1: get this little kid. I almost said a little fact,
Speaker 1: and I am going to say a little fact. I
Speaker 1: was the album so that he cannot make his mother's
Speaker 1: life more of a living hell than it already is
Speaker 1: going to be with all the uncertainty in the w
Speaker 1: R L L D. I have a question, did they
Speaker 1: have um, miss padlock A Silk songs on that album
Speaker 1: or no, Silk does not appear on the album. But
Speaker 1: I mean, it's so funny. Pod is good in the movie.
Speaker 1: She goes such a bad singer on the track, like
Speaker 1: it's but on purpose, but she's so perfect in that
Speaker 1: she's so good. And then there's a moment where like
Speaker 1: they put Maria on the track instead of Silk, and
Speaker 1: Terence how it looks at podn like nods and she
Speaker 1: nods back like, Yeah, we're gonna get this bitch to
Speaker 1: sing for me. And it's just so funny. Poo is
Speaker 1: a star. But we knew that we love her. We
Speaker 1: love her. Dearly, come back, Podma, it's time for you
Speaker 1: to come back. We weren't able to. We we couldn't
Speaker 1: we We were supposed to get Papa back on the
Speaker 1: show and then schedule gliding. Yeah for Taste the Nache.
Speaker 1: But um, we'll get her back soon. But anyway, I
Speaker 1: wanted to ask you what your favorite if we haven't
Speaker 1: talked about and you talked about one thing, that's your
Speaker 1: favorite thing about the book, what's your favorite thing. Oh um,
Speaker 1: my favorite thing about the book is honestly, her talking
Speaker 1: about process. I know this sounds it's like when she
Speaker 1: she there. There's a part in the book where she
Speaker 1: lays it out pretty clearly. She's like, this is the
Speaker 1: way I like to work. Is I like to um
Speaker 1: laid down like a scratch vocal where the lyrics aren't
Speaker 1: even that complete, but it's just like syllable syllable syllables.
Speaker 1: Then I'll do a lyrics pass after those are down,
Speaker 1: then I'll go back and do another vocal track that
Speaker 1: has the finalized lyrics, and then I'll do background vocals.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my god, we're getting a peek into
Speaker 1: her her creative like fill like principle. You know, it's
Speaker 1: like that was very special manage, Like, oh, that's very
Speaker 1: that's that's worth the price of the book alone. Yeah.
Speaker 1: To me, it was also really fun for her to
Speaker 1: hear her say like, I like it to be just
Speaker 1: me and my engineer. If I could do my own
Speaker 1: thing by myself, I would creating the vocals as like
Speaker 1: a very like almost like she describes it as like
Speaker 1: almost a sacred process for her, and that is so
Speaker 1: evident when you're such a fan of hers for so
Speaker 1: long because her choices are unparalleled, like the fact that
Speaker 1: like the fact that the way she sings his mainstream
Speaker 1: is like like just like her choices and her like riffs,
Speaker 1: and like when she's singing in full voice and head voice,
Speaker 1: and the way she can transition between them, and her
Speaker 1: use of whistletone, and how over the years she's employed
Speaker 1: the whistletone in such a different way, like how she
Speaker 1: layers it into two tracks, like when she's deciding to
Speaker 1: do it and not do it like that to me
Speaker 1: was so amazing to hear, and and I I would say,
Speaker 1: for me, there's two. I have another one too, but
Speaker 1: you go, you go first, Well, my my, my, sorry.
Speaker 1: My second one is the epilogue where she's like, if
Speaker 1: I have one thing to share with the world, it's
Speaker 1: and the sounds that corny as hell, I know, but
Speaker 1: it's something that I needed to hear this week. Um.
Speaker 1: It was like, if there's one thing I can tell
Speaker 1: the world, that's to never give up on your dreams.
Speaker 1: And no mother, no mother, father, sister, brother, you know,
Speaker 1: like manager, person, cousin, friend, fake friend, chicking with the phone, chick, chicken,
Speaker 1: and then she ends on Chicken with a Keyboard. Chicken
Speaker 1: with a Keyboard, can can like, can like take ever
Speaker 1: take that away from you, from from things that you've
Speaker 1: like built yourself. And I was like, fuck yes, because
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, I am off the fucking wagon
Speaker 1: with like my discipline around like not looking at you know,
Speaker 1: the comments and whatever. I'm like fully back because there's
Speaker 1: nothing else to do now, and I'm just scrolling and
Speaker 1: I'm like kind of letting it hit me. And I'm
Speaker 1: talking about in therapy, will work through it, but I'm
Speaker 1: just like, oh, fuck, like this is something I have
Speaker 1: to like fix pretty soon. But we're saying that was
Speaker 1: helpful to me. So I love the epilogue the girls
Speaker 1: where I have been pretty fucking mean to me over
Speaker 1: the past two weeks too. I don't I don't know
Speaker 1: what's in the water, but I got the we got
Speaker 1: the I got the nastiest review on the podcast app.
Speaker 1: It was so it was so baseless and fucked up
Speaker 1: and aggressive, and I was just like, it really nailed me,
Speaker 1: and we're actually really ruined my mood. When we were
Speaker 1: right before we got on the episode last week and
Speaker 1: and we talked about this off off the record after
Speaker 1: we finished recording I and I know, reader, it sounds
Speaker 1: kind of, you know, frivolous and we're on our little
Speaker 1: perch when we sort of complain about this ship. But
Speaker 1: like it's my feelings, it's it will it. It fucking
Speaker 1: like rocks her soul in a way, and and um,
Speaker 1: it's a matter of scale in some cases in Matt,
Speaker 1: like after Hot Dog came out, Matt and I were
Speaker 1: drunkenly face timing and we were like confiding to each
Speaker 1: other about this. But it's like there's I don't know,
Speaker 1: there's there there's like a there's a certain like unnecessarily
Speaker 1: toxic thing to all this, and like we were still
Speaker 1: we're still at that place in the culture where we're
Speaker 1: figuring out how to move past it. And I think
Speaker 1: there is progress and there is some empathy that we're
Speaker 1: all practicing towards each other with with with this, and
Speaker 1: and no matter what your station is in life, we're
Speaker 1: all sort of trying to understand each other better. But
Speaker 1: this is something that like I am working through on
Speaker 1: a very deeply personal level. It's like the one thing
Speaker 1: that is truly ruining my life right now. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: really and I feel bad because like I constantly think
Speaker 1: like and this is another element of it that I hate,
Speaker 1: but like just so just to say this, like when
Speaker 1: I when I think about the way that I'm dealing
Speaker 1: with the way I'm getting it, and most people are
Speaker 1: so sweet and so nice, but yes, then they'll be
Speaker 1: like that one little comment about like the funk this
Speaker 1: like this host is like too much or whatever, and
Speaker 1: like like there's so much meaner than that, like it's
Speaker 1: so crazy, and then like they'll and I think about
Speaker 1: what you must get and on the scale you must
Speaker 1: get it, and then I feel stupid for feeling bad.
Speaker 1: But then I'm like no, actually no, And then but
Speaker 1: that's also an element of this, is like please stop
Speaker 1: comparing Bowen and like if you'll just say what are you?
Speaker 1: If you if you love Bowen, I agree with you.
Speaker 1: I do too. But he he would hate it if
Speaker 1: he heard you talk about the way if you talk
Speaker 1: about me the way that you do he this way,
Speaker 1: it would not endear you to him at all to
Speaker 1: say that I am bad. And if you think that
Speaker 1: you're impressing me by saying anything negative about Bowen Yang,
Speaker 1: you couldn't be. You could not be more wrong that
Speaker 1: like when I take any attack on Bowen is attack
Speaker 1: on me, Like that's personal to me. I was going
Speaker 1: to say an attack on you as an attack on me.
Speaker 1: I mean, if our readers don't know by now, if
Speaker 1: you listen to this podcast and don't know that I
Speaker 1: and I tell Matt this on too regular of a
Speaker 1: basis that I think he is the smartest, funniest, this
Speaker 1: is my person. I'm like Matt, Matt checks off so
Speaker 1: many superlatives for me, and I love him so so deeply,
Speaker 1: like a sister, like a brother, a sibling. If you
Speaker 1: just don't, don't even bring that, don't present that to
Speaker 1: me like a fucking offering. Okay, And likewise, for me,
Speaker 1: it's just like any any anything against Bowen Yang is
Speaker 1: you getting smacked. And like I'm serious, I the only
Speaker 1: way I get Dynasty smack a bit. I will smack you.
Speaker 1: I will smack you in the face if you come
Speaker 1: from Bowen, I really will. I'll hit you. And that's
Speaker 1: that's me. That's a threat. That's that's not a threat,
Speaker 1: it's a fact. Step off. And also, don't listen to
Speaker 1: the podcast if you don't like one of the hosts
Speaker 1: were it you put sucking dukes up, I will fucking it.
Speaker 1: Will take such a look, and I will throw hand
Speaker 1: to destroy you. We will throw hands, will throw hand
Speaker 1: me the hands. See me with their hands, Come see
Speaker 1: me with them hands hands. Anyway, back to the positivity
Speaker 1: around this book. Okay, what was your What were your
Speaker 1: favorite moments of the book. I have so many. So
Speaker 1: basically there's the Diva's chapter where she there's like a
Speaker 1: solid six pages, so I'm gonna get to that in
Speaker 1: my own things. So um, there's like a solid six
Speaker 1: pages of this book that is all just adulation for
Speaker 1: um Aretha Franklin, which is so deserved. And also we
Speaker 1: should say Mariah's impression of Arethas and Diana Ross Maria
Speaker 1: they're playing games and then when she's like, why are
Speaker 1: they playing games? But then they turned the fucking air
Speaker 1: off and she's like gets so animated and then she goes,
Speaker 1: I was dying. She's just so good. So I love
Speaker 1: the whole Deva section. I loved hearing about her time
Speaker 1: with Whitney. I I just I loved it so much
Speaker 1: because again that was like the machine around them being like, whoop,
Speaker 1: they're not gonna like each other. They're not gonna like
Speaker 1: each other. Let's like, you know, prepare them for this,
Speaker 1: but all so fan the fires and then for them
Speaker 1: to connect and compliment each other in such a way.
Speaker 1: And she said, you know, Brittany was the princess of
Speaker 1: all vocalists. You know, she was born into almost royalty
Speaker 1: in terms of singing. Mariah is a craftsman and her
Speaker 1: laborer in terms of like composition, and she's they're both
Speaker 1: incredible singers, etcetera. But they're so different. And how they
Speaker 1: complimented each other and the laughs that they had at
Speaker 1: the time they shipped together, you could tell it meant
Speaker 1: so much to Mariah, and there's so much love in
Speaker 1: that and um, ultimately, and I also just give an
Speaker 1: honorable mention to she says a few good words about
Speaker 1: a few good men, and there's like beautiful little tributes
Speaker 1: to Stevie Wonder and Prince and Nelson Mandela and um,
Speaker 1: you know those all those gentlemen. But I think my
Speaker 1: favorite thing um in the book is one that's something
Speaker 1: that's been talked about so much, which is the Derek
Speaker 1: Teter of it all. I mean, I think that they're
Speaker 1: their their connection over there, shared I shared identity, and
Speaker 1: they're the way that they first flirted and talked to
Speaker 1: each other like they were the only people in the room.
Speaker 1: But she kind of woke up in that moment and
Speaker 1: the way that translated into her music. I almost like
Speaker 1: feel thankful that that meeting happened because it created the
Speaker 1: whole first half at least of Butterfly. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: track one through five or six, you could pretty much
Speaker 1: argue was all about that relationship that, however brief, but um,
Speaker 1: you know, I I was also a huge fan of
Speaker 1: his at the time because I was I was really
Speaker 1: into it, and so the fact that they were dating
Speaker 1: and now I get to like hear about the specifics
Speaker 1: of it. Then meeting at this like private Armani Runway
Speaker 1: show and then like how cool it was and how
Speaker 1: galvanized she was by the conversation, the people her age,
Speaker 1: smart people, her age, of all different races, talking about
Speaker 1: race for the first time, seeing a family, seeing a
Speaker 1: family like his, loving and that was very emotional. She
Speaker 1: realized that it wasn't her, her her biracial identity that
Speaker 1: was creating problems. It was the people in her family
Speaker 1: that were creating problems. And to see a possibility of
Speaker 1: a loving family that looked like her really changed things
Speaker 1: for her. And I think that that relationship obviously is
Speaker 1: so crucial in her development as a human being. And
Speaker 1: I just everything about it, like the way she felt
Speaker 1: awake sexually for the first time. I just love that
Speaker 1: she really went there with that chapter and it created
Speaker 1: my favorite music of hers. It's just such a vividly painted,
Speaker 1: illustrated like thing and like it's one of those like honestly,
Speaker 1: like it's one of those things where it's like that's love,
Speaker 1: that is love, like those like the conversations with the
Speaker 1: people who do make you feel like there's no one
Speaker 1: else in the room. Like that is huge, and I'm
Speaker 1: horny name for it it. I mean, it was such
Speaker 1: a horny moment in the book. And also the way
Speaker 1: that they were like sneaking her into that like pizza parlor.
Speaker 1: She went out the back and like whatever, like and
Speaker 1: like just that sneaky in this like it was so tense,
Speaker 1: you know, Like that part of the book was so
Speaker 1: like it was. And then she gets home and she's
Speaker 1: like drenched, and she was so thankful that Tommy wasn't
Speaker 1: there to see her was so wet, because she would
Speaker 1: have had to explain why she was wet, Like the
Speaker 1: whole fact of the matter that that she had like um,
Speaker 1: surveillance in every room in her house except the bathroom,
Speaker 1: and the only place she could find solace was the bathtub,
Speaker 1: Like come on, like that, the fact that she was
Speaker 1: living like that. And then when she talks about UM, God,
Speaker 1: I can talk about this forever, just like getting fries
Speaker 1: with to brat that like and that to burger King. Yes,
Speaker 1: when you go to Burger King next time, reader, you
Speaker 1: better appreciate the freedom you have to go to Burger
Speaker 1: King Mariah Fries. But but and then the last the
Speaker 1: other thing was um, I was really moved by um.
Speaker 1: And the song is sort of like um, it's so
Speaker 1: uh not a basic song, but it's just like it's
Speaker 1: so for the masses. Yes, it's so commercial and for
Speaker 1: the masses that I don't think gets credit, but it
Speaker 1: really means something to so many people. It's a beautiful song. UM.
Speaker 1: But I loved hearing about the creation of Hero, how
Speaker 1: it just kind of came to her in the hallway,
Speaker 1: and how it was originally for Gloria Stefan, and then
Speaker 1: she performed it live at that concert and schenected me
Speaker 1: for the very first time, and she felt that she
Speaker 1: really connected with her fans, who she realized she had
Speaker 1: in that moment, and that whole section I thought was
Speaker 1: was really terrific. Yeah. I think she's one of those artists. Listen,
Speaker 1: we're talking about thirty years. She's had number ones for
Speaker 1: four decades in a row. Um, obviously in a row.
Speaker 1: But it's this thing where it's like, I feel like
Speaker 1: she has these seasons in her career that like are
Speaker 1: so distinct and are marked by struggle. Yes, but it's
Speaker 1: like she it's the book is a triumph The book
Speaker 1: like sort of like tenses you up as you read it,
Speaker 1: but like it's like it's like by the time you
Speaker 1: get to that last chapter, it's it's triumphant. It's like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, thank god, she's happy. Yeah. I'm actually
Speaker 1: deciding in this moment that I don't want to go
Speaker 1: negative on this one part, because I do think it
Speaker 1: was a cultural thing that Celendion didn't know that she wasn't.
Speaker 1: I think Selena's just goof aloof, and she just didn't
Speaker 1: know that she doesn't supposed to challenge read the Franklin
Speaker 1: in that moment and from Mariah carry someone who idolized
Speaker 1: her and you know, is a black woman like she
Speaker 1: she had to look at that happen and be like,
Speaker 1: I'm mortified this is happening, and then Patty Labell afterwards
Speaker 1: being like I would have smacked you upside the head
Speaker 1: had you done what that child did, like you like
Speaker 1: that was wrong, but but like I can't be reading
Speaker 1: I can't be reading about it. She didn't know any better.
Speaker 1: I don't think no, no, no, but I'm gonna do
Speaker 1: something else. I have a good I have another good.
Speaker 1: I don't think okay good, but if you watch back.
Speaker 1: I went back and watched it, and I feel like
Speaker 1: a wreath. It was just having fun. Yeah, it didn't
Speaker 1: seem like a wreath. It was like that ghastly like
Speaker 1: what was that like? Mortified or no? I think it
Speaker 1: was more just everyone around her, who of course I
Speaker 1: was visibly uncomfortable. Well, and Mariah has the reverence she
Speaker 1: talks about how you know, when she first met her,
Speaker 1: she got down on her knee and said like, I
Speaker 1: want to thank you for everything you've done. My name
Speaker 1: is Mariah, etcetera. And then Mariatha said, later, Maria, you
Speaker 1: have good manners. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that which was
Speaker 1: a part I really liked. And she's like, that's what
Speaker 1: the other girls don't have matters, And I think that
Speaker 1: informed the way she looked at that moment was she
Speaker 1: knew that it was important, the decorum of it all
Speaker 1: was important to Aretha, and for Seline to challenge her
Speaker 1: that was just against Mariah's moral code. It wasn't respectable.
Speaker 1: I get it, um, I do want What I thought
Speaker 1: was missing in the book was the moment where Donna
Speaker 1: Summer backed out the night of for this like for
Speaker 1: this other Diva's show that was supposed to have Diana
Speaker 1: and was it in another Divas show? But I don't
Speaker 1: know what it was, but it's in the book that
Speaker 1: it was supposed to be a trio between Donna Summer,
Speaker 1: Diana Ross and Mariah and then Donna Summer came to
Speaker 1: rehearsal and then was like, all of a sudden not
Speaker 1: doing it anymore. No one knows why. I don't know
Speaker 1: about that Donna Summer. I mean, we love her music,
Speaker 1: but she was very homophobic. In the end, we that
Speaker 1: we just have to we just have to put that
Speaker 1: out there. But we love on the radio, we love
Speaker 1: Last Dance, We love um, you know all the bops,
Speaker 1: So it might be time. It might be time for
Speaker 1: I don't think so, honey. And we are doing Mariah centric,
Speaker 1: I don't think so honey, this being a Mariah centric episode,
Speaker 1: an episode I have so enjoyed as I enjoyed this
Speaker 1: book and I loved just like going back and listening
Speaker 1: to all her music. I can't recommend enough. I'll repost
Speaker 1: those playlists too. I'm gonna make it more because I
Speaker 1: really enjoy doing it. But I have one. Okay, this
Speaker 1: is Matt Rogers. I don't think so many. As time
Speaker 1: starts now, I don't think so honey. Anyone's sleeping on
Speaker 1: the album Charm Bracelet. Okay, you don't have to understand.
Speaker 1: Even though this was the album that was after Litter
Speaker 1: and before I'm Ancipatient, this album has bops. Okay, boy,
Speaker 1: I need you with Cameron. This is a bop through
Speaker 1: the Rain the way that Maria sinks that if you
Speaker 1: don't respect that, I don't think so honey. If you're
Speaker 1: not off on that song as a gay person, as
Speaker 1: a queer person, I don't think so honey. On this
Speaker 1: hashtag national coming out that you need to come out
Speaker 1: as a stand of charm Bracelet. I know it was
Speaker 1: a few days ago recording on the day. Let me
Speaker 1: just say some songs that are on here that are
Speaker 1: fucking slays yours. Okay. The song Clown, which was her
Speaker 1: first time as she came for Eminem Clown is an
Speaker 1: unbelievable song. You all need to listen to Clown, and
Speaker 1: if you don't, I don't think so, honey. Also, the
Speaker 1: cover of Bringing On the Heartbreak? Is it? The songs
Speaker 1: subtle invitation? Is it? The one of the last songs
Speaker 1: is the last actually a Sunflowers for Alfred Roy, which
Speaker 1: is a gorgeous tribute to her father who passed. Five
Speaker 1: seconds beautiful, please stand charmed, braceted, listen to charm boted.
Speaker 1: If you don't, I don't think so, honey. You're not
Speaker 1: a lamb and that's one minute. Don't be calling yourself
Speaker 1: a lamb and not be not be including charm bracelet
Speaker 1: into the conversation. Beautiful. Now do you think Mariah's art
Speaker 1: pop is charm Bracelet or Memoirs of an Imperfect Angel?
Speaker 1: I think probably her chart her art pop is probably me.
Speaker 1: I am Maria, the elusive Shan too, but I feel
Speaker 1: like if it's her art pop, it's the underappreciated album
Speaker 1: has has has has like has like um, you know,
Speaker 1: like sort of a hindsight value. Then I think it's
Speaker 1: tied between me, I am Maria, the Alusa Shantus and
Speaker 1: charm Bracelet because I think Memoirs Memoirs has respect like
Speaker 1: Memoirs spawned a hit song. Obsessed was a huge. Obsessed
Speaker 1: was huge, but that was but that was kind of
Speaker 1: it though, right, and there was up at my Face
Speaker 1: was well And by the way, I watched that Up
Speaker 1: on my Face video again, Like you said last week,
Speaker 1: it's crazy how much fun they're having together having so
Speaker 1: I told that's why I said last week. It's like
Speaker 1: they're genuinely they're not faking it. They're enjoying each other's company.
Speaker 1: You would never be able to tell me that that
Speaker 1: would become the feud that it did. And also noticed
Speaker 1: that's not in the book at all. She doesn't even
Speaker 1: mention that. She's not even the words American. I don't
Speaker 1: even uttered because who cares. Yeah, I don't want to know.
Speaker 1: I was thinking like, oh, there are intentional things that
Speaker 1: aren't mentioned, Like I guess I mean the entire time
Speaker 1: is like when she's gonna talk about Nick Cannon, then
Speaker 1: I feel like she she devotes like read paragraphs to
Speaker 1: it or something, and I'm like, well, she she goes
Speaker 1: into the Nick Kinna stuff and you get that she's
Speaker 1: got like a that was like a real love. And
Speaker 1: I always questioned I was like each other's lives still,
Speaker 1: Like yeah, I was always like Mariah and Nick Kennon.
Speaker 1: I wonder what that really is. And I think that
Speaker 1: she says it as plainly as she can, Like she
Speaker 1: was really unaware of who he was because she didn't
Speaker 1: watch TV, she didn't know all of his nineties relevance.
Speaker 1: And then she met him and he was fun. He
Speaker 1: was hot and fun, and he wanted to have kids
Speaker 1: with her, and he was obsessed with there. So you
Speaker 1: meet someone hot, fun who's obsessed with you and wants
Speaker 1: the future, you'd be hard pressed not to marry Nick Cannon.
Speaker 1: If Nick Cannon wanted to wanted to marry me, I
Speaker 1: would be like, yes, absolutely. Also, I thought it was
Speaker 1: interesting that she was like, originally Nick Canna was going
Speaker 1: to be in the Touch My Body video and we
Speaker 1: thought a nerd. I was like, I think he would
Speaker 1: have been a great nerd. He would have been a
Speaker 1: great nerd. He was like, he's a sketch performer, he
Speaker 1: can do it. Yeah, hot nerd culture is culture. Hot
Speaker 1: nerd culture. His culture equals MC squared. Also was terrific. Um,
Speaker 1: I mean, emancipation is a fucking moment. Then you got,
Speaker 1: I mean glitter might be Mariah's art pop. Sure, Oh
Speaker 1: that's yeah, that's that's fair. That's fair. You're right, you're right,
Speaker 1: And then the other ones are just all kind of
Speaker 1: critically acclaimed masterpieces. All right. So the thing is, after
Speaker 1: I do my I don't think so, honey. What what
Speaker 1: happened is Bowen will do his. I don't think so, honey.
Speaker 1: And if he's ready, I can set the clock. Yeah
Speaker 1: I think I'm ready. Okay, Well that means I will
Speaker 1: start the clock Bowen Yang's I don't think so, honey.
Speaker 1: Time starts now. I don't think so, honey. Marshall Mathers
Speaker 1: m stupid clown, bit clown, dumb ass, toxic horror. You
Speaker 1: are eminem and there's a reason why why you so
Speaker 1: obsessed with her? Boy. I want to know you have
Speaker 1: been harassing this poor woman ever since you wanted. You
Speaker 1: decided to get in your dumb little ideation machine that
Speaker 1: you call your brain that you wanted to fuck her,
Speaker 1: and she was like, no, stop it. You have other
Speaker 1: options out there, Marshal. You don't have to funk Mariah Carey.
Speaker 1: You don't have to show up at the oscars in
Speaker 1: out of nowhere and perform and and do lose yourself.
Speaker 1: It's a great song, It's maybe one good cultural contribution. Stan,
Speaker 1: I don't care for I don't even uh see, I
Speaker 1: don't even know. I'm I'm gonna get into this after that.
Speaker 1: My minutes up. But first of all, I don't think
Speaker 1: so many Eminem. Okay, my minutes up. That's what minute?
Speaker 1: Do we care about Eminem's contribution to hip hop? Let's
Speaker 1: just say to hip hop, look me in the eyes.
Speaker 1: As as as lovers of hip hop, you and I.
Speaker 1: I don't fucking care for Marshall Mathers at all. It's
Speaker 1: I just think he came along at the exact right
Speaker 1: time where we would have even allowed someone like, yeah, well,
Speaker 1: you know what, of those people are very ill and
Speaker 1: they need a lot of help, and I'm willing to
Speaker 1: pay to help them get the help that they need. Actually,
Speaker 1: I'll do us. I'll do a scholarship every year at
Speaker 1: my high school. Find the person that still likes Eminem
Speaker 1: and give them six hundred dollars. I'll pay that for
Speaker 1: the rest of my life. I'm willing to do a
Speaker 1: scholarship to help young kids that think that would I
Speaker 1: would start this scholarship with you. We should start the scholarship.
Speaker 1: Can can you do? Can we each do? Let's just
Speaker 1: each to five hundred for each of our high schools.
Speaker 1: Does that work? So so it's like we each we
Speaker 1: each pay a thousand total? Yeah, okay, So basically, it's
Speaker 1: like a teacher that we trust at the school, find
Speaker 1: the kid that looks like they might like Eminem and
Speaker 1: give them the money to get the help that they
Speaker 1: need to get the help that they need, which is,
Speaker 1: if you like Eminem, you need to get the help
Speaker 1: you need. Is actually real culture number one hundred and four.
Speaker 1: If you like he needs to get to help to
Speaker 1: help you need waiting scholarship, then it has to be
Speaker 1: that we that that goes towards their schooling. Literally, I
Speaker 1: don't think so, honey, Eminem, you need an education if
Speaker 1: you like him, rancid, I don't know why we even
Speaker 1: I feel like Eminem is like a squatter in our brain. Well,
Speaker 1: first of all, I'll tell you why we even give
Speaker 1: a fuck is because he came along. Well, no, it was,
Speaker 1: it was, It was fucking before that. Basically, like homophobia
Speaker 1: was engineer Doug. Since i'll lie for the five dollars,
Speaker 1: it's a thousand Doug. It's a thousand Doug now. So basically,
Speaker 1: like homophobia was cool, and so he came along and
Speaker 1: made his whole thing homophobia and misogyny, and like the
Speaker 1: culture couldn't have been more toxic at that point because
Speaker 1: it was post like the Clinton and Clinton impeachment. Everyone
Speaker 1: hated women. Hillary was the biggest punching bag just at
Speaker 1: that time, Like it was just so fucking cool to
Speaker 1: hate women. And the fact that he took misogyny and
Speaker 1: violence against women and homophobia so fucking far and made
Speaker 1: made such a huge fortune on it, he should be
Speaker 1: sucking ashamed for the rest of his life. And if
Speaker 1: you think that there aren't legions of men who hit
Speaker 1: their girlfriends because they thought it was cool because they
Speaker 1: heard Eminem did it, you've got another fucking thing coming.
Speaker 1: And it's disgusting. And he's the worst thing that's come
Speaker 1: out of American culture, oh pop culture. And now he's
Speaker 1: sucking with Mariah Carrie. He's not fit to shine her shoes.
Speaker 1: I'm so happy you did that. Hashtag hashtag literally literally
Speaker 1: sister life hashtag after fuck him? And I used to
Speaker 1: think he would. I used to think he was hot too,
Speaker 1: which is so tough. He's got a fucking fat ass.
Speaker 1: You'd be a superstar bottom if he put his mind
Speaker 1: to it. He really would. Why don't you tell that
Speaker 1: to Chuck Schumer Nancy Pelosi? There we go, Yeah, why
Speaker 1: don't we tell to chor him out the window? Chuck
Speaker 1: and Nancy, Let's let's let's get a little dirty here.
Speaker 1: Why not let's play dirty? Um? Okay, So, so a
Speaker 1: few things before we close out. I just want to
Speaker 1: say I loved this episode so much. What a treat.
Speaker 1: I love a book hub. I know it's Matt and
Speaker 1: I don't want this to be part of the narrative
Speaker 1: that you don't read too many books. I don't like
Speaker 1: this anymore. It's such a bad bit. It's such a
Speaker 1: bad bit. I don't like the bit anymore, like because
Speaker 1: it's because it's not true. Be we lean into it
Speaker 1: because it helps with the dichotomy with you and I.
Speaker 1: But now I have people like actually in my DNM
Speaker 1: d n M as I try to make. I have
Speaker 1: people in my d MS now treating me like I'm
Speaker 1: dumb and like trying to do a bit to me,
Speaker 1: like I'm stupid. First of all, you don't know me
Speaker 1: like that, get out of my d M. Second of all,
Speaker 1: like I'm so, it's not I'm I'm I don't not read.
Speaker 1: So I just love a book club. I think we
Speaker 1: can do this, um with a book that sort of
Speaker 1: strikes our interest in the future, I would love that.
Speaker 1: Let's do that. It's gonna get us away from this
Speaker 1: narrative has to come organically. I think another thing we
Speaker 1: should talk about is we're gonna go a few a
Speaker 1: few more episodes than normal that are just me and
Speaker 1: Matt for a bit, and then we'll every now and
Speaker 1: then we'll bring in again us. But this is sort
Speaker 1: of the dynamic for now in the short term, just
Speaker 1: because our schedules are kind of crazy now, um, it's
Speaker 1: harder for us to find times that work for just
Speaker 1: between me and Matt in the first place, but then
Speaker 1: to figure out I guess schedule into that is also
Speaker 1: a little bit of, um, an outside factor. So it's
Speaker 1: actually what is exciting for us right now, Like you know,
Speaker 1: Boone and I feel like we can be Bone and
Speaker 1: I sometimes when it's just the two of us, not
Speaker 1: that we haven't ever been like ourselves and having a
Speaker 1: blast when we have any guests. It's just we want
Speaker 1: to do this for a little while. And we've been
Speaker 1: hearing you guys, and you guys seem to like these
Speaker 1: episodes with just bo and I, so we're down for it.
Speaker 1: So yes, but we'll still bring in guests every now
Speaker 1: and then. Yeah, and it'll be great. Um. But yeah,
Speaker 1: So we're excited about that, and we're excited about this
Speaker 1: app and we're excited about each other. And uh that's
Speaker 1: really number one. Um wow, I love this And you've
Speaker 1: got to read the meaning of Mariah Carey I mean,
Speaker 1: and also shout out to Andy Cohen Books that that
Speaker 1: published this. Oh yeah, did you know that she thanks
Speaker 1: him in the acknowledgements. Well, she was on Watch What
Speaker 1: Happens Live on the same week as you want an Honor?
Speaker 1: When an honor to share the same error segment as
Speaker 1: her in one week? Please better yet, even listen to
Speaker 1: the audio book, I feel like it's really one of
Speaker 1: those experiences that is enriched by the sort of sound
Speaker 1: that the sounds of her reading. She has changed the
Speaker 1: game for audiobooks for sure. I agree. I agree. She
Speaker 1: better want a Grammy for that, I would imagine. All right,
Speaker 1: so this has been last culture and we are, of
Speaker 1: course gonna take it out with a song why sex.
Speaker 1: When everybody boo, it's clear and when they get impressed, Man,
Speaker 1: wouldn't get this good delusion. You're losing your mind. It's confused,
Speaker 1: and you'll you're confused. You know why you're wasting your time?
Speaker 1: Mariah said, Let's say see you right, do you like
Speaker 1: your bathe in a Windex? Oh? Oh, Windex in the chorus,
Speaker 1: the way that Windex is a lyric in hurt, The
Speaker 1: way that Windex figured in as the prominent lyric in
Speaker 1: the chorus. I can't. She just watched my big Back
Speaker 1: Grief wedding, and it's like I'm reading Windex into this song,
Speaker 1: she said. Windex writes, Windex writes, Okay bye,