1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: Hi, This is newt Twenty twenty is going to be 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: one of the most extraordinary election years of our lifetime. 3 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: I want to invite you to join my Inner Circle 4 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: as we discuss each twist and turn in the presidential race. 5 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: In my members only Inner Circle Club, you'll receive special 6 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: flash briefings, online events, and members only audio reports from 7 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: me and my team. Here is a special offer for 8 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: my podcast listeners. Join my Inner Circle today at Newtcentercircle 9 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: dot com slash podcast, and if you sign up for 10 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: a one or two year membership, you'll get ten percent 11 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: off your membership price and a VIP fast pass to 12 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: my live events. Join My Inner Circle today at Newtcenter 13 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: Circle dot com slash podcast use the Code podcast at checkout. 14 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:51,840 Speaker 1: Sign up today at Newtcenter Circle dot com slash podcast 15 00:00:51,880 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: and use the Code podcast Hurry this Offtway Spires February fourteenth. 16 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World. In June of nineteen 17 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: seventy nine, Pope John Paul the Second returned to his 18 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: homeland of Poland. This week marks the fortieth anniversary. Perhaps 19 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: at no other time the twentieth century has one man 20 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: so influenced the nation. His visit ignited the solidarity movement 21 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 1: in Poland that led to the liberation of millions. His 22 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: nine day pilgrimage would change the world. His close relationship 23 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 1: and shared mission with President Ronald Reagan would lead to 24 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: the one of the most extraordinary moments the twentieth century. 25 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: Mister Garbutschoff teared down this wall. Pope John Paul the 26 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 1: Second had a remarkable life. He was born in nineteen 27 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: twenty and so there was a sudden burst after World 28 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: War One. Poland once again is re established and exists 29 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: once again as a nation. And that's the world into 30 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: which Karl Joseph Chiwa is born. He's born in the 31 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 1: Polish town of Vadovichi, and he is the youngest of 32 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: three children born to Karovotiwa and to Emilia Kascharowska. His 33 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: mother died when he was nine. His father raised him. 34 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: He is very very close to his father, and his 35 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: father cared deeply about him and thought that Karovotiwa had 36 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: a great future, had a potential to be somebody. And 37 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: so in nineteen thirty eight, at the age of eighteen, 38 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: his father takes him. They leave Vadovichi and they move 39 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: to Krakaut and that's where Karovotiwa goes enrolling at the 40 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: Iglonian University, which was a great and very old historic 41 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: center of education in Poland. In nineteen thirty nine, there's 42 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: a Nazi Soviet pact. The Soviets get the eastern part 43 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 1: of Poland, the Nazis get the western part of Poland, 44 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: and the Nazi German occupation forces closed the university. Boutillo 45 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: himself actually ends up going out and working in a quarry, 46 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: is hurt at one point. He's doing physical labor. That 47 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: It's part of why, unlike a lot of popes, he 48 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: had a real sense for everyday working people. He was 49 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: from them, he had worked with them, he lived with them. 50 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: He had a real instinct for reaching out and communicating 51 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: with people who had earned their living through manual labor. 52 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: He also, in that period of his life joined a 53 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: theater group, which was illegal. The Nazis were trying to 54 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: destroy Polish culture, and so there was a death penalty 55 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: if they could prove that you belong to this particular 56 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: theater group that was dedicated to Polish plays and Polish 57 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: culture in literature. But he did that. Anyways, the first 58 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: really good example of a principle that it's at the 59 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: heart of who he was. He was so devoutly Catholic. 60 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: He believed in God so much that I don't know 61 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: that he was ever courageous. I think rather he never 62 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 1: felt fear, and he often said that he said have 63 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 1: no fear. He didn't say have courage. And the reason 64 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: he said have no fear is that he figured, look, 65 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: the worst that will happens, I'll die and I'll be 66 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: with God. So you're threatening to put me with God. 67 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,559 Speaker 1: I wouldn't mind being with God. And as a result, 68 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: he's a remarkably calm and a remarkably brave human being. First, 69 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: under the Nazis, he ends up going to seminary, which 70 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 1: was illegal. He is hidden while he's in seminary because 71 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: if the Nazis find him in the seminary, they're going 72 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: to kill him. And then he comes out of the seminary, 73 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 1: the country's liberated, and here's his great opportunity to live 74 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 1: in freedom. Accept the people doing the liberation, or the Soviets, 75 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 1: who are not only establishing a toutolitary state, but they're 76 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:03,799 Speaker 1: also anti Afflican, anti Christian. And all of his formative 77 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: years after his eighteen years of age are spent under 78 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:11,039 Speaker 1: either a Nazi tyranny or a Soviet tyranny. Now in 79 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: that period he learns a very calm and a very 80 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: deep belief. This is a man who believes deeply in prayer, 81 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: he believes deeply in salvation. He loves people. He's an intellectual. 82 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: He writes a great deal and very calmly is prepared 83 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: to stand up to the Soviets. And I think there 84 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: he is imbued in part by a sense of fatalism. 85 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: His father had died of a heart attack in nineteen 86 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 1: forty one, and as the Pope said some forty years 87 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 1: later and quote to twenty, I had already lost all 88 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:50,280 Speaker 1: the people I loved. Now think about that from him. 89 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: He's lost his mother, he's lost his father. He's in 90 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: a possession of living with Nazi occupiers then Soviet occupiers, 91 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: and so he has to find strength inside himself. He 92 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 1: calmly and steadily grows. He grows intellectually, he grows as 93 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 1: a leader. As a bishop. He takes on the Polish 94 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 1: Communist government and has a long struggle over establishing a 95 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: new church. They don't want any new churches, and he 96 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: just methodically leads the people of the community and rebuilding it. 97 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: They tear it down, He rebuilds it. Finally they give 98 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: up and say, okay, you get go ahead and have 99 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 1: the church. And then, of course, dedicating that church becomes 100 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: an enormous victory over the communist state. He is seen 101 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: more and more by people in Rome as a great talent. 102 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: He comes down plays a substantial role in Vatican too, 103 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: which is a multi year intellectual effort. And that's part 104 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: of where I think he suddenly stands out in a 105 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: way people might not have suspected John Paul a second. 106 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: While he's physically charismatic and physically an athlete, he's a 107 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 1: great intellectual, writes brilliantly, he argues brilliantly. He steadily emerges. 108 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: And when the pope dies, they have an election and 109 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: he comes in a distant second. But still it is 110 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: a little shocking everybody. Here's this guy from Krakau. I mean, 111 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: we had not had a non Italian pope in four 112 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: hundred years and comes in second. And then thirty one 113 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: days later, Pope John Paul dies and they have a 114 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: second conclic and he emerges as the natural leader. He 115 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: becomes pope. Now you had a Polish Catholic leader, and 116 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: that was being to change everything. The Russians instantly understand 117 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 1: they have a problem. And now let's listen to the 118 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: actual coverage of the announcement of John Paul the seconds election, 119 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: coming out into the balcony now led by the Cross 120 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 1: Cardinal Finici, who will announce to us about twenty two 121 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: minutes after we first saw the white smoke, who the 122 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: new Pope will be. And he looks down mining to 123 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: an enormous sea of faces here well in excess of 124 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty thousand people. He will be handed 125 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: the book and speak to the assembled crowd. Nuncia, bobby's Gow, 126 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: would you mind you? I bring you guiding the great joy. 127 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: I believe other rookie ababuspop I'm I mean indcimum indcimum dominum, 128 00:08:48,600 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: dominum carolub Sante Romane a glacier cardinal boy who had 129 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 1: taken the name of John poll her first non Italian 130 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: pope in four hundred and fifty five years, and pleased 131 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 1: to welcome my guest, John O'Sullivan, author of the President, 132 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: the Pope and the Prime Minister three who changed the world. 133 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: You played a real role in fighting communism in Central Europe. 134 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 1: Can you just take a minute or two and talk 135 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: about yourself as a journalist living and working mainly in 136 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: London and in England and America later until eighty nine, 137 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 1: I was very always, very strongly anti communist, always very 138 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: strongly sympathetic to the attempts of the people in Eastern 139 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: Europe to break three. I got to know circles of 140 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: anti communist emigrates. People would send me people who'd just 141 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: arrived back from there. As a result of that, I 142 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,839 Speaker 1: was probably much better informed about what was going on, 143 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: about the currents of opinion that were fermenting under the 144 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: surface of communist rule in those countries, so that when 145 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: Polish Pope was chosen, and when later on we saw 146 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: the eruptions of the Velvet revolutions and so on, I 147 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: was surprised, of course, and we all thought the Soviet 148 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: Union looked kind of implacable and might not might be 149 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: there all our lives. But at the same time I 150 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 1: wasn't totally surprised, because I knew the feelings, the passions, 151 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: and the sentiments that were bobbling away among the ordinary 152 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 1: people and among brave and political dissidents under the rule 153 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: of the Communist and it was very remarkably encouraging that 154 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: every one interesting thing nude, which I really learnt about 155 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,439 Speaker 1: only recently, but in the year before John Paul the 156 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: Second went to Poland, Billy Graham went to a Budapest 157 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:03,199 Speaker 1: and he gave a sermon outside the city in a 158 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: big park. And of course there was no mention of 159 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: this in the newspapers or the mass media, but a 160 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:14,199 Speaker 1: huge audience gathered to hear him, and they sort of 161 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,599 Speaker 1: made their way through this forest to where he was 162 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: going to be speaking, past other people who were just 163 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 1: enjoying a Sunday afternoon out, and he got a huge audience. 164 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: Now there was this untapped desire for God and religion 165 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: as well as for liberty and political independence in Eastern Europe, 166 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: in all of the countries. It was greater in Simon, 167 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: lesser than others, but it was there everywhere. And one 168 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: of the reasons I wanted you to help us better 169 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: understand this context is you end up writing a book 170 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: which weaves all three of them together. You weave Reagan 171 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:53,199 Speaker 1: and Thatcher and the Pope in a sense, I think 172 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: we would still have a Soviet Union without those three. 173 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: I mean, would you agree with that sentiment. I would, 174 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: and so I think would quite a lot of people 175 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 1: who were themselves surprised by the speed with which the 176 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 1: arrival of the Pope and Ronald Reagan and Maga Thatcher 177 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,439 Speaker 1: dissolved the empire. It took ten years. The speed was surprising, 178 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: but a lot of people, including in a conversation I 179 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 1: had with Henry kustingerm he said he could see the 180 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: end of the Soviet Empire, but he was thinking in 181 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: terms of decades, and he wasn't thinking in terms of 182 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,719 Speaker 1: one decade. Were less than one decade, so people were 183 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: already moving towards feeling free. And if you talk to 184 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:39,079 Speaker 1: people who lived through that time at the sharp end 185 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: of things, like for example, Richard Lagutco, the Polish philosopher 186 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:47,959 Speaker 1: and politicians now a member of the European parliaments, he 187 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: says that he really never felt quite so free as 188 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: he did in the last three or four years of communism. 189 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: They no longer had the confidence to enforce their rules, 190 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: and solidar and the Pope between them had given people 191 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: courage to say and write and argue what they thought. 192 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: That's why, in fact, the end of communism turned out 193 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: not to be an explosive end with bodies in the 194 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: streets and people storming barricades. It was a gradual, quiet 195 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: surrender by a communist They just essentially gave up and 196 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: let other people take over. And then when they saw 197 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: that the game was hopeless, the Communist essentiti sat down 198 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: and negotiated their way out of power. When we come back, 199 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: as the Solidarity movement takes hold, the Polish Communist regime 200 00:13:41,200 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: begins to crumble. When the Pope arrives forty years ago 201 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 1: and is standing there in what was then called Victory Square. 202 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: They're like three million people who come to this mass 203 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: and here they are. They're seeing a Polish pope. So 204 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: they have nationalism, they have personal pride, they have Catholicism, 205 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: which has always been one of the binding elements of 206 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: Polish society, despite all the various pain they've been through. 207 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: Of course, you see us Polish Christusa does not see 208 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: groups door Rosa. The Pope has a joint press appearance 209 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: with the head of the dictatorship, Arrezolski, and you can 210 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: see Yarrezowski's leg is shaking. He is so frightened and 211 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: so uncertain what to do with the Pope that he's 212 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: just totally rattled. Yes, I think that's true, and I 213 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: think it's it's estimated that approximately a third of the 214 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: Polish population attended masses at which the Pope spoke in 215 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: that nine days in Poland. A third. Now, what does 216 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: that mean. It means that if you go to that rally, 217 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: and if you go to a mass, if you listen 218 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: to that sermon, that you are declaring yourself a dissident 219 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: for God maybe or a dissident for freedom, a dissident 220 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: for Poland, but still a dissident. Now you turn to 221 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: your right, the person on your right, you know that 222 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: they're doing the same thing, They're experiencing the same emotions, 223 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: the same sense of liberation and the person. That's true 224 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: for the person on your left as well. So everybody 225 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: knows that that crowd, all of them, are doing things 226 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: which are in principle, according to a communist hostile to 227 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: that region, and that gives them that moment then, and 228 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: obviously from that point on a sense that no, they 229 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: don't have to follow those fellows rules, they don't have 230 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: to obey, they don't have to be frightened, and they 231 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: don't have to accept that some political party is going 232 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: to lay down what their future is going to be. 233 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: They can make their own future in conjunction with their 234 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: friends and family. That is the liberation sense that the 235 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: Pope's that visit game. Simply by going to that mass 236 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: you liberated yourself. And at one point where with Barklov Hovell, 237 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: who is not a Catholic and he's not particularly religious, 238 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: he's a very very famous writer and poet, playwright, and 239 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: he had been in exile and had only become head 240 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: of the Czech Republic. And so I said to him, 241 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: what was the decisive moment where things began to change? 242 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: And he said, oh, there's no question. He said it 243 00:16:56,280 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: was on the pope game to Pollen. He said that 244 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: sent shockwaves through every single country in Eastern Europe. We 245 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: were all used to quietly talking to each other. We 246 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,439 Speaker 1: would all go up into the mountains along the border 247 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: between the two countries and we'd all have cabins on 248 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: our side of the border. Then we'd walk and we'd 249 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 1: go across and see each other, because there wasn't a 250 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: difficult border inside the Arm Curtain. The big border was 251 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: between the Arn Curtain and the rest of the world. 252 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: And he said, you know, for me, that was the 253 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:32,120 Speaker 1: decisive moment in many ways, the Pope makes solidarity reel, 254 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,160 Speaker 1: while Reagan and Thatcher and the Pope really mattered. How 255 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: seminal do you think that that trip was in setting 256 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: the stage that people began to realize that there was 257 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 1: a potentially huge vulnerability in the Soviet Empire. I think 258 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: it's different in every country because of a different degrees 259 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: of the repression. To a considerable degree, the Church protected Poles, 260 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: including Poles who were not Catholic, from the Communist repression. 261 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: The Communists were frightened of the Church. They wanted to 262 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 1: subvert it. They wanted they were prepared to antagonize it, 263 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,679 Speaker 1: but they didn't want a constant, open conflict where they 264 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: could never predict the outcome. The checks were the worst, 265 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: were the most repressed. That they were repressed because of 266 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: sixty eight and the regime that came in then and 267 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 1: imposed what they called normalization. Was determined to in a sense, 268 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: to restore a sense that Communist life was a reasonable, 269 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:37,160 Speaker 1: normal kind of life, and they banished people who rebelled, 270 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 1: who dissented in the smallest ways, to humiliating jobs. The 271 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: Hungarian government, after a period of a tremendously tough crackdown 272 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 1: that people were executed and sent off to labor camps. 273 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: In fifty six, about some ten or twelve years later, 274 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: they started to liberalize, and they had set out to 275 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:00,400 Speaker 1: corrupt the Hungarian people to give them a little freedom here. 276 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,880 Speaker 1: And they're gradually increasing doses. Yes, you can send your 277 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 1: kids to university, you can travel abroad for a limited period, 278 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: maybe you can have a small dasher in the country, 279 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: these kinds of things. But the price of that is 280 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: we want you just to keep out of politics or 281 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: support the government one or the other. And of course 282 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:25,679 Speaker 1: cad Are the very clever, true leader of the communists 283 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: that he described his regime's viewers as he who is 284 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: not against us is with us. And so all of 285 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 1: these countries were different. They the governments were abusing them, 286 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 1: but abusing them in quite different ways, and they gradually 287 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: in all three cases opposition grew. But it grew most 288 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: I think most obviously in Poland because the Church itself 289 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: on the one hand, and the great personal achievements of 290 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 1: Lecoenza and the Solidarity movement on the other meant that 291 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:03,160 Speaker 1: they were prepared to step out to say things loudly 292 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: what other people said quietly and to transform a situation 293 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: in which the people in a sense lived alongside communism 294 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 1: and tried to get by to one in which they 295 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: defied it. The end of communism comes in stages. They 296 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 1: were preparing themselves for the moment when a greater freedom 297 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: would arise, and it began to arise the solidarity and 298 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: the Pope in Poland, and it gradually spread to the 299 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,639 Speaker 1: rest of the Eastern Bloc, until in the end the 300 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: communist government cuts a deal with the Austrians. They literally 301 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: they have a picnic on the border with Austria. They 302 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 1: cut the barrier, the steel barrier, and then the next 303 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: thing that happens is people from East Germany who are 304 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: vacationing flee through it, and all of a sudden the 305 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,399 Speaker 1: events begin that lead later that year to the Berlin 306 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 1: Wall collapsing. It's an extraordinary story. It's the end of 307 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 1: brutal revolutionary regime. People grabbed freedom first by degrees and 308 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: then much more massively. Part of what was happening, I think, 309 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: was that you had people who understood how to be 310 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: very dramatic. Thatcher was in some ways a natural teacher. 311 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 1: Reagan had been an actor, and in their first meeting 312 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: between Reagan and the Pope. They compare notes on the 313 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: two big parallels. That the Pope had wanted to be 314 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 1: an actor early in his life before he went into 315 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 1: the seminary, and had actually been part of a group 316 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: that met regularly in Krakow, even when it was a 317 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: death penalty to belong to that group, and the Nazis 318 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: were trying to stamp out Polish national identity, and of 319 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:45,919 Speaker 1: course Reagan had been a professional actor. So they actually 320 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: are comparing notes on their jobs and what are the 321 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 1: tools that brings to you, And you can see this. 322 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: I think the Pope, not just in Poland but around 323 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: the world, that he's playing the role of being a 324 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,640 Speaker 1: great crew satyr. He looks the part, he acts the part. 325 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: We tend to remember him now as a very old 326 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: man who was suffering from significant illness, but when he 327 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,919 Speaker 1: was younger, he was an astonishingly vigorous person, just as 328 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: Reagan and Thatcher were both vigorous. And there was some 329 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 1: weird contrast between the Soviet leaders, who, as Reagan once said, 330 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: they could never arrange a summit because they kept dying 331 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: faster than they could organize the summit. And I think 332 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: you have some of that kind of experience underway dealing 333 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 1: with these guys, and so you do have this sense 334 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 1: of mutual vigor in the West and an atrophying system 335 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: in the East. And I think that that was part 336 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: of the symbolism that really made a big difference. No, 337 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,119 Speaker 1: I agree with that. That first struck me actually in 338 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine, just after missus Sancho had been elected. 339 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 1: She had bound the energy. And this is part of 340 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: what the pope is playing off of on his trip. 341 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: He is representing vitality, he's also representing salvation. So in 342 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: a sense, you have this failing regime that can't meet 343 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: any of its goals, can't give people a decent living, 344 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: can't give them hope for a decent future, and you 345 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 1: have a pope who's basically in a very charismatic and 346 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: powerful way of offering you salvation. That's true. By the 347 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 1: mid eighties they were preparing their departure, certainly. I remember 348 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: meeting a communist, leading communist apparatic in London when he 349 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 1: was on a visit from Hungary, and he was very 350 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 1: candid in how he described to me the way in 351 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: which he thought the politics and Hungary was going to 352 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: go and he said, well, the hard liners at the 353 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: moment have still got enough power to stop us moving 354 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: towards multiparty elections, but that's going to break down. And 355 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: I would guess we'll have multiparty elections in eighty eight 356 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 1: or eighty nine. And I remember saying, well, aren't you 357 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: going to lose them? He said, oh, yes, we lose them. 358 00:23:57,920 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: The Communists will split in two. It will be a 359 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: half line factioned remaining Communists and others will become Social Democrats, 360 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: a new party something like that, and we will lose 361 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: the first election. That's inevitable. The situation in Hungary is 362 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 1: for any government is extremely tough. We've got lots of deaths. 363 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: Things aren't working out that well, so we'll probably win 364 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 1: the election after that. And the fact is that is 365 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 1: exactly what happened. And they were losing power, but they 366 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: still had a lot of craft and shrewdness and cunning. 367 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,120 Speaker 1: And that's why for the first ten of fifteen years 368 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: after nineteen eighty nine we had freedom, but the Communists 369 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: was still running quite a lot of things. It took 370 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 1: a long time before people in a sense adapted to freedom. 371 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 1: They had adapted out of communism in eighty nine, but 372 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: they had not in a sense adapted for freedom, and 373 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 1: it took some time before they succeeded in doing so. 374 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 1: That was a hard decade for the people of Eastern 375 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: Europe after yeah, and I think you could see that, 376 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 1: for example with East Germany, which when it collapsed and 377 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: they merged with West Germany. The cultural differences between being 378 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: in an entrepreneurial, free enterprise society where you're expected to 379 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: work every day and you're expected to be productive, and 380 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: having come out of a communist bureaucracy, whereas the famous 381 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: saying was that the Soviets pretend to pay us and 382 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:30,120 Speaker 1: we pretend to work, and that system simply wouldn't function 383 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 1: in the setting that was evolving. As you look at 384 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: that period, you see movement and you realize how big 385 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: the rallies are for the pope, the passion that people 386 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 1: brought to these meetings when the Pope would ride into 387 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: town in an open air vehicle, the crowds lining the streets, 388 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: and the excitement and for nine days, that's what he's doing. 389 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,400 Speaker 1: And so the whole country, as you said, a third 390 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: of the people physically saw him. Everybody saw him on 391 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: television to spite the efforts to sort of censor it 392 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: and minimize it, and you could sort of see. One 393 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: of my favorite scenes is there's an all night youth 394 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: movement and the Pope goes and sits with them, thousands 395 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 1: and thousands of young people. He sits with them for 396 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 1: oh three or four hours, and he sort of has 397 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 1: his hand on his chin, just watching them and thinking 398 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:28,160 Speaker 1: about them, and this whole sense of watching a new 399 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,639 Speaker 1: generation rally to freedom and rally to the church, and 400 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: you could feel his sense of satisfaction at that point. Yes, 401 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 1: that is absolutely true. On the other hand, we have 402 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 1: to remember that all of the other events that are 403 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 1: occurring about this time, which make the progress of mankind, 404 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: so to speak, towards greater freedom and liberty in Europe 405 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 1: and elsewhere more complicated than it now seems to us. Remember, 406 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: there were huge rallies in Western Europe at that time 407 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,719 Speaker 1: against the installation of the crews in Persian missiles by 408 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 1: the United States in Western Europe. Those missiles were in 409 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 1: a sense to be a counter to the missiles that 410 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 1: had been placed in Eastern Europe by the Soviets, and 411 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:21,360 Speaker 1: which directly threatened accurately Western cities. Now they attracted millions 412 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,880 Speaker 1: of people too, and they frightened governments. They were always 413 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 1: hoping to get the hope of the Catholic Church. They 414 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: did get the help of some bishops, just as the 415 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,119 Speaker 1: Catholic bishops in the United States were very critical of 416 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,159 Speaker 1: Reagan's arms build up, but they never got the support 417 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 1: of the Pope, and they got the strong opposition not 418 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 1: only of Reagan but also Missus Hatcher and other Western 419 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,119 Speaker 1: European leaguers whom she went around and was trying to 420 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:52,120 Speaker 1: stiffen their resolves. But until the missiles were planted there, 421 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: that was a major moment, because it was the end 422 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: of any hope of the Soviets winning the Cold War. 423 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 1: On their part, they knew it was over, and as 424 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 1: a result of that that Gorbuschov subsequently goes to Geneva 425 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: and Reikyevic and Washington, and of course there were demonstrations 426 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 1: against Reagan whenever he came. Of course, he was the 427 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: best possible representative of the United States when it came 428 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: to winning around opinion to the policy that is both 429 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: the extended hand of peace but at the same time 430 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 1: the willingness to defend one's self. This combination and the 431 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 1: actor's skill he brought to this was I think very important. 432 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: The European view of Reagan in nineteen eighty eight is 433 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: light years away from the European view of Reagan in 434 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: nineteen eighteen. The two different worlds. They regard him in 435 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,959 Speaker 1: a completely different way, not any longer as a trigger 436 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: happy cowboy, but as a shrewd, successful, fundamentally generous, minded 437 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: American statesman. And that's a big deal that change. The 438 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: Pope's impact was powerful everywhere. It was powerfully in Eastern Europe, 439 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 1: was powerful in Western Europe, it was powerful in Latin America. Next, 440 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 1: President Reagan employs US covert operations to keep the Pope 441 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 1: informed about Soviet plans. President Reagan kept sending a special 442 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: envoys with our satellite photography to brief the Pope and 443 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: exactly what the Soviets are doing. And the Pope stood 444 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 1: solidly with President Reagan, as did Thatcher against the effort 445 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: to pressure us into unilaterally disarming. And I think that 446 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: was one of the things that began to close the door, 447 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: that they couldn't find a way to get around us. 448 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: That the alliance as a whole was so big, and 449 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: particularly in some of its non military aspects, for example, 450 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 1: with the Church. It made a huge difference in the East, 451 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: and we cooperated with the Church, for example, in getting 452 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 1: printing presses to solidarity. So suddenly you have all sorts 453 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: of publications showing up, you have all sorts of capabilities 454 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: coming and it was really a remarkably effective campaign to 455 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: reassert freedom and to defy what had seemed twenty years earlier, 456 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: the imposingly powerful and almost inevitable Soviet Empire, which looked 457 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: weaker and weaker every single year of the nineteen eighties. Well, 458 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: that's true. There's no doubt the Vatican diplomacy until John 459 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: Paul the Second was essentially it had its own as polity. 460 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: It was essentially based on a belief that the Soviet 461 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: control of Eastern Europe, that the Communist by there was irremovable, 462 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 1: there will be there indefinitely, and we had to find 463 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 1: a way of persuading the Communists to live with us, 464 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: and live with the Church and treat the Church decently. That, 465 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 1: of course, turns out to have been a radical misjudgment, 466 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: but it was the misjudgment which held most of the 467 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 1: Vatican diplomatic bureaucracy in its grip, and they were very 468 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: nervous of John Paul the Second in on the visits 469 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy nine, there is nervousness on the part 470 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: of some of the Vatican people with him about the 471 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: fact that he's getting these huge crowds, particularly crowds of 472 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: young people, and they're saying, what's going to happen here? 473 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: There's going to be some kind of terrible disturbance. They're 474 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: very worried about that. The Judge in Poland, brave though 475 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 1: it was, was always somewhat after John Paul the Left, 476 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: I mean he had to sort of buttress its its 477 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 1: willingness to support their solidarity. They were nervous of solidarity, 478 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 1: not in any hostile way, but they just thought, who 479 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: knows where this is going to lead? I mean, they 480 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 1: didn't think it would lead to the end of communism peacefully. 481 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: So the Pope was extremely important because he realized that 482 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: Reagan was a genuine reformer, a genuine lover of peace. 483 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 1: This was a man who thought it would be morally 484 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 1: wrong to respond to a Soviet attack by killing millions 485 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 1: of Russians in return. What he wanted to do was 486 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 1: not to avenge American deaths but to prevent American deaths 487 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: with a missile defense system. That's a very big moral 488 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: point in Reagan's favor with the Pope, it seems to me. 489 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: I think also that they were deeply impacted in that 490 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 1: first visit by the fact that both of them had 491 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: been shot and had recovered. Both of them had a 492 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 1: very religious view of God having spared them to do something, 493 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 1: so that there was a common bond of experience. All 494 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: three of them Thatcher, Reagan in the Pope all were 495 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: intuitively part of a team, and they were intuitively committed 496 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: to a general vision of the future. And they didn't 497 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: necessarily have detailed plans, but they had a general direction, 498 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 1: and they sort of moved down the field together, each 499 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: helping reinforce the other in a way that I think 500 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,719 Speaker 1: was totally unpredictable. Four or five years earlier, you couldn't 501 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: have imagined that Soviet Empire was that vulnerable. You couldn't 502 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 1: have imagine getting a pope who was that aggressive and who, 503 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: by being Polish, was right at the heart of the 504 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 1: Eastern Bloc. And you couldn't quite imagine, prior to her 505 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 1: winning having a British Prime Minister as tough and as 506 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 1: intellectual as Thatture. And you couldn't imagine this movie star 507 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: who turned out just to know a great deal about 508 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 1: how the world works and how to get things done. 509 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: So it's one of the more remarkable trios. Yes, it 510 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 1: is one count help feeling of the kind of chill 511 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 1: on the spine that these sleepy will come to power 512 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 1: in their respective way, in their respective institutions at times 513 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,760 Speaker 1: of great crisis. For those institutions, against all the odds, 514 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: they begin to turn the crisis to good effect and 515 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 1: to solve it. And then just as they're beginning to 516 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 1: do so, each of them is struck down. In the 517 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: case of missus Thatcher, and she was not herself wounded 518 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 1: had she been in that and she was in a suite, 519 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: had she been in the bathroom where she had gone 520 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: after the speech writing session a moment longer. I think 521 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 1: she was at about two minutes when the bomb went 522 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 1: off that whole section at the hotel collapse, she would 523 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 1: have been killed, as five other people were. In each case, 524 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,239 Speaker 1: they are attacked by the forces of evil. In each 525 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: case they have a narrow escape physically narrow in the 526 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,279 Speaker 1: case of the Pope and Raging because the bullet just 527 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:58,800 Speaker 1: misses their most vital organs in her case, and escape 528 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 1: because in the vulnerable spot when the bomb went off, 529 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 1: they have escaped this. And there's no doubt that Reagan 530 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: and the popers you said had took the view that 531 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 1: God had spurred them. God had spurred them for some purpose, 532 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,399 Speaker 1: some great cause, and they did have that to share 533 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,879 Speaker 1: with each other. The pivotal figure here is Reagan. It's 534 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 1: he who has a really strong relationship with the Pope, 535 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 1: and he who has the really strong relationship with Missus Thatcher. 536 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: He's the man who links both of them in all 537 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 1: sorts of ways. But the Pope and Missus Thatcher did meet, 538 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 1: I know from conversations that he had mired her, but 539 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,280 Speaker 1: he didn't have in a sense the same close contact 540 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 1: or understanding. They came from somewhat different mental worlds as 541 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 1: well as physical world and he was never, in that 542 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 1: sense as close to her as both men were to 543 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: each other. I think it's really important to remember that 544 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:01,320 Speaker 1: in Poland, in Eastern Europe in general, they had suffered 545 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:06,360 Speaker 1: starting in nineteen thirty nine under the Nazis, and the 546 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:11,840 Speaker 1: Nazis were extraordinarily ruthless and very willing to kill people, 547 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 1: and then they get sort of liberated, but deliberated by 548 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 1: the Soviets, and the Soviets are anti religious and anti Christian, 549 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: and so if you're somebody like John Paul the Second, 550 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,800 Speaker 1: you've literally spent your entire adult life in the shadow 551 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,759 Speaker 1: of too consecutive to tolitary and dictatorships, both of which 552 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:34,920 Speaker 1: were willing to use force, both of which willing to 553 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,840 Speaker 1: use torture. And I think that's part of why you 554 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: have this almost numb sense of the limitations of what 555 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,920 Speaker 1: they can get away with, and where John Paul the 556 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 1: Second begins to make a real difference, even back when 557 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 1: he's a bishop and an ultimately cardinal, and that he 558 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:57,279 Speaker 1: is willing to calmly stand up to the government, but 559 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 1: in very careful ways. I mean, he's very aware that 560 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 1: if he pushes them too far, that they do have 561 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: the sheer power just to kill him. And at one 562 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 1: point they do kill a reforming priest whose body shows 563 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 1: up having been beaten to death. There's a real balance 564 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:17,239 Speaker 1: of courage and at the same time realistic appreciation that 565 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,719 Speaker 1: they will kill you if you go too far at 566 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,440 Speaker 1: any one time, and I think when he was arranging 567 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,360 Speaker 1: to go back, which is really quite funny. He wanted 568 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,360 Speaker 1: to go back for the feast of Saint Stanislav, who's 569 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: the patron saint of Poland, and he'd ask, I think 570 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 1: to go back for three or four days. And they 571 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 1: were desperate to not having there because they thought it 572 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: was such a national symbol that they said, I'll tell it, 573 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 1: why don't we give you nine days in June instead 574 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 1: of three or four days in May. And I think 575 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,160 Speaker 1: John Paul, being a relatively smart look that said, let 576 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,080 Speaker 1: me get the straight you're afraid of my impact on 577 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 1: the country, so you're doubling the number of days I'm 578 00:37:55,920 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 1: going to come. Sure, I'll do it. Deal. So he 579 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,400 Speaker 1: shows up and it just turns out they had been 580 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:08,399 Speaker 1: warned by Breshniov not to do this, and Breshniuv said, 581 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:13,920 Speaker 1: you're playing with fire. This guy could ignite the popular 582 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 1: will of the whole country and I wouldn't do it. 583 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 1: And Yarrazalski, who was the Polish leader at that point, 584 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: said to him, I can't turn down a Polish pope. 585 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 1: The country would explode. He said, I have to invite him. 586 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,719 Speaker 1: But the Pope played it perfectly, got a lot more 587 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,279 Speaker 1: time than anybody thought he would. Reagan was still doing 588 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,320 Speaker 1: his radio show, and Regan wrote several times about the 589 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,839 Speaker 1: impact of this new Pope and how important he thought 590 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:45,280 Speaker 1: the new Pope was, And all of the Reagan radio 591 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:49,440 Speaker 1: shows about John Paul the Second are very flattering and 592 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,319 Speaker 1: very positive. And I suspect that the Pope was well 593 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 1: aware that Reagan personally had in a sense embraced his 594 00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,120 Speaker 1: papacy and had embraced his trip to Poland in a 595 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:04,720 Speaker 1: way that was really quite powerful. Reagan makes his famous 596 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 1: mister Garbatow tear down this wall speech in Berlin, and 597 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 1: on the very same day in Poland, the Pope is 598 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,239 Speaker 1: talking about tearing down the wall, and so there were 599 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,200 Speaker 1: sort of echo chambers back and forth between the two 600 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,760 Speaker 1: of them. Part of that came about because President Reagan 601 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 1: for the first time recognized officially the Vatican, and his 602 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 1: very close personal friend Bill Wilson from southern California became 603 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 1: the first ambassador. This is actually the thirty fifth anniversary 604 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:40,320 Speaker 1: of establishing formal relations, and my wife, as the ambassador 605 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 1: right now, is spending most of the year celebrating it 606 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 1: in a variety of ways, because it was an important 607 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,359 Speaker 1: moment up until then. We had never had a full 608 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:54,520 Speaker 1: time embassy or official formal diplomatic recognition, and Reagan and 609 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,360 Speaker 1: the Pope thought that it was essential that they create 610 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 1: a positive, ongoing relation ship. So there's a papal nuncio 611 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 1: in Washington, and we have an ambassador in the Vatican, 612 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 1: and that is a direct result of the partnership between 613 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 1: Reagan and John Paul Second. The fortieth anniversary is a 614 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 1: good time to look back and realize that people can 615 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:31,800 Speaker 1: change history, People can make an enormous difference, that moral 616 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:35,560 Speaker 1: courage matters, that a willingness to stand up for what 617 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:38,960 Speaker 1: you believe can be the fulcrum on which the entire 618 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:43,120 Speaker 1: world changes, And that there was a magic time when 619 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,880 Speaker 1: it looked like the Soviet Union was gigantic, would never change, 620 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 1: that the tyranny would remain for millions. And in that 621 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:56,160 Speaker 1: magic time, a few people, Pope John Paul, the Second President, 622 00:40:56,280 --> 00:41:00,160 Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan, Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher found a way to 623 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:05,160 Speaker 1: work together despite everything, and in that process created a 624 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 1: movement and excitement and enthusiasm, and within a decade the 625 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,320 Speaker 1: Soviet Empire had collapsed. It was a remarkable moment, and 626 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,759 Speaker 1: I think one of the key starting points was the 627 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 1: nine days that John Paul the Second went back to Poland, 628 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,120 Speaker 1: the nine days that changed the world. And I think 629 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 1: that it's well worth looking at and recognizing what he 630 00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,600 Speaker 1: was saying, the moral courage with which he said it, 631 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,560 Speaker 1: and the summation of a lifetime which had been led 632 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:39,040 Speaker 1: unto Nazi tyranny, Soviet tyranny, and in the end grew 633 00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:42,840 Speaker 1: to love God despite all that, and then grew to 634 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:52,719 Speaker 1: lead the entire human race to a better future. Thank 635 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,759 Speaker 1: you to my guest. To John O'Sullivan. You can read 636 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,719 Speaker 1: an excerpt from his book, The President, the Pope and 637 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,279 Speaker 1: the Prime Minister Three Who Change the World, and hear 638 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,239 Speaker 1: more about John Paul the Second's visit to Poland on 639 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:09,760 Speaker 1: our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newtsworld is produced 640 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,920 Speaker 1: by Westwood One. Our executive producer is Debbie Myers and 641 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 1: our producer is Garnsey Slump. Our editor is Robert Boroski, 642 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 1: and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. Our guest booker is 643 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 1: Grace Davis. The artwork for the show was created by 644 00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:30,360 Speaker 1: Steve Penley and music was composed by Joey Selvin. Special 645 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,400 Speaker 1: thanks to the team at Kingridge three sixty and Westwood 646 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:38,000 Speaker 1: Ones John Wurdock, Tim Sabien, and Robert Mothers. Please email 647 00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,839 Speaker 1: me with your comments at newt at newtsworld dot com. 648 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,800 Speaker 1: If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to 649 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,640 Speaker 1: Apple Podcast and both rate us with five stars and 650 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,319 Speaker 1: give us a review so others can learn what it's 651 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:59,600 Speaker 1: all about. On the next episode of Newtsworld, I am 652 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,400 Speaker 1: joined by one of the nation's leading scholars of American 653 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:06,719 Speaker 1: history and winner of the Policer Prize, author Joseph Jois. 654 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,520 Speaker 1: For Father's Day, we're celebrating with the discussion about our 655 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:14,200 Speaker 1: nation's founding fathers. What distinguishes him is he makes up 656 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:18,560 Speaker 1: his mind early on and never turns back. He's coexisting 657 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:22,480 Speaker 1: in a world until the summer of seventy six is 658 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:32,560 Speaker 1: fundamentally undecided. I'm new Gangwig. This is News World, the 659 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:34,360 Speaker 1: Westwood one podcast Network.