WEBVTT - Superwolves: Bonnie "Prince" Billy and Matt Sweeney 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:24.436 Pushkin. In two thousand and five, single Will Oldham and 0:00:24.516 --> 0:00:28.836 guitarist Matt Sweeney released the Superwolf album, which has developed 0:00:28.876 --> 0:00:32.756 a cult following that includes Rick Rubin, who absolutely fell 0:00:32.876 --> 0:00:36.756 in love with the project. Now sixteen years later, they're 0:00:36.796 --> 0:00:41.476 back with the follow up, Superwolves. Other folks will make 0:00:41.716 --> 0:00:47.236 mistakes and leave you with the mass. Other folks have 0:00:47.516 --> 0:00:53.236 ways of fucking past, but you know best they're lost. 0:00:53.276 --> 0:00:56.476 To begin with, This new album was five years in 0:00:56.476 --> 0:01:00.196 the making, a leisurely pace that allowed Oldham and Sweeney 0:01:00.276 --> 0:01:04.916 to be incredibly intentional with their creative choices. Oldham, who's 0:01:04.956 --> 0:01:07.476 recorded under a number of different monikers in the past, 0:01:07.676 --> 0:01:11.356 including Bonnie Prince Billy, wrote all the lyrics before sending 0:01:11.356 --> 0:01:14.316 them over to Sweeney to write his guitar parts. The 0:01:14.436 --> 0:01:17.596 duo also added a new flavor, tapping the West African 0:01:17.676 --> 0:01:20.716 musician m Dumaktar to play guitar on a few tracks. 0:01:22.076 --> 0:01:25.156 On today's episode, Rick Rubin talks to Oldham and Sweeney 0:01:25.196 --> 0:01:28.076 about their work together, which Rick considers some of his 0:01:28.196 --> 0:01:31.796 favorite contemporary music, and it's also why he's used Sweeney 0:01:31.796 --> 0:01:34.476 on a lot of the sessions he's produced, including the 0:01:34.516 --> 0:01:38.516 Dixie Chicks, Cat Stevens and Adele. Will Oldham talks about 0:01:38.556 --> 0:01:41.476 his philosophy on connecting with his audience and how if 0:01:41.476 --> 0:01:44.636 this pandemic were to take us all, super Wolves would 0:01:44.636 --> 0:01:52.916 be a great album to go out on. This is 0:01:52.956 --> 0:01:56.516 broken record liner notes for the digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. 0:02:01.676 --> 0:02:05.276 Here's Rick Rubin with will Oldham and Matt Sweeney. How 0:02:05.276 --> 0:02:08.756 are we being graced with a new super Wolf project 0:02:09.796 --> 0:02:13.716 all this time since the last one. Matt and I 0:02:13.756 --> 0:02:15.396 thought it could be a good idea. We didn't think 0:02:15.396 --> 0:02:17.036 about it till till too late, but it could be 0:02:17.076 --> 0:02:19.196 a good idea to get up to speed with your 0:02:19.236 --> 0:02:24.516 conversational style in this forum. So I was listening a 0:02:24.516 --> 0:02:27.276 little bit earlier today to a conversation that you were 0:02:27.316 --> 0:02:30.436 having with Adam Cohen. You were saying that there's you 0:02:30.476 --> 0:02:33.836 just can't control it. You can't control He says specifically 0:02:33.836 --> 0:02:35.996 that a record isn't a Fay dot COMPI And he 0:02:36.036 --> 0:02:38.516 has a beautiful little French Canadian accent when he says it, 0:02:38.996 --> 0:02:40.716 and he you know, and he goes on to say, 0:02:40.796 --> 0:02:43.036 even with the right songs and the right producer and 0:02:43.076 --> 0:02:45.356 the right blah blah blah, you know, you can't guarantee 0:02:45.836 --> 0:02:49.636 and you say, yeah, you can't, there's no And I 0:02:49.716 --> 0:02:53.596 feel like if you just do something like take your time, 0:02:54.436 --> 0:02:57.476 you can kind of get close to guaranteeing it. So 0:02:57.676 --> 0:02:59.836 to answer your question, we just took a little bit 0:02:59.836 --> 0:03:03.636 of time. We wanted to make a good record. As 0:03:03.676 --> 0:03:07.036 you've probably experienced most records that you probably feel strongly about, 0:03:07.036 --> 0:03:11.196 whether you participated in them or not, something did just happen, 0:03:11.236 --> 0:03:15.236 of course that made them specifically rise above the other records. 0:03:15.676 --> 0:03:17.236 But having been aware of that, if you have the 0:03:17.676 --> 0:03:21.676 leisure because you're doing other things, to build something slowly 0:03:21.716 --> 0:03:25.756 and just be sure that you only act when the 0:03:25.876 --> 0:03:29.556 charge is there, absolutely, would you say, in the writing process, 0:03:29.756 --> 0:03:33.116 do you consider the audience or not at all? Yeah, No, 0:03:33.196 --> 0:03:36.836 it's it's all about the audience, like entirely. Yeah, the 0:03:36.836 --> 0:03:40.236 whole reason to sit down and write is for the audience. Interesting, 0:03:40.876 --> 0:03:43.956 it's probably less than fifty fifty that that would be 0:03:43.996 --> 0:03:47.116 the answer to people who write songs. Yeah, you never 0:03:47.196 --> 0:03:49.676 hear people say that. I feel like Chuck Berry is 0:03:49.676 --> 0:03:51.116 the kind of person who would say it. He would, 0:03:51.996 --> 0:03:53.676 he would be a little colder in the way that 0:03:53.716 --> 0:03:56.236 he phrased it. But but if you read about him 0:03:56.236 --> 0:04:00.836 talking earlier in his career. He's less less harsh. But yeah, 0:04:00.836 --> 0:04:04.316 people don't say that. I had a revelation recently that 0:04:04.396 --> 0:04:07.396 I'll share with you, which is I've always worked towards 0:04:07.436 --> 0:04:09.716 this idea of greatness and they didn't know what greatness was, 0:04:09.796 --> 0:04:11.556 but but that was the feeling. It's like, it's not 0:04:11.876 --> 0:04:14.276 it's not about selling a lot, it's not about making 0:04:14.316 --> 0:04:16.956 anybody else like it. It's about it has to be great. 0:04:16.996 --> 0:04:18.396 It has to be great in a way where it 0:04:18.436 --> 0:04:20.516 stands up to the test of time and it's forever, 0:04:21.196 --> 0:04:25.556 and it's like the the bar was higher. And recently 0:04:26.596 --> 0:04:29.756 I've come to realize that actually we're making art as 0:04:29.756 --> 0:04:33.716 an offering to God. And if you're making art for God, 0:04:34.036 --> 0:04:36.276 there are no shortcuts to take, there are no low 0:04:36.396 --> 0:04:41.876 vibration energies involved in the process. It's like, that's the 0:04:42.836 --> 0:04:46.036 that's what we're really aiming for. Is this um a 0:04:46.156 --> 0:04:50.156 sharing on a different plane? Really, I like to think 0:04:50.236 --> 0:04:54.476 that in what we do, or at least what I do, 0:04:54.676 --> 0:04:58.116 the offering is not the work. The offering is the 0:04:58.156 --> 0:05:01.236 connection made between the work and the audience. You know, 0:05:01.676 --> 0:05:04.276 my mother was a visual artist. Nobody ever saw her 0:05:04.556 --> 0:05:08.116 visual art. It's it's great, but she I would maybe 0:05:08.156 --> 0:05:10.676 say that those could be considered offerings to God because 0:05:10.676 --> 0:05:12.876 they weren't shared with anybody, so in and of themselves, 0:05:12.876 --> 0:05:16.516 that's what they were. But because our labor goes to 0:05:17.556 --> 0:05:20.876 making a connection, you know, you're you're asking for an audience. 0:05:21.676 --> 0:05:24.356 For to have any degree of success, whether it's financial 0:05:24.436 --> 0:05:27.716 or spiritual or artistic, there does need to be some 0:05:27.756 --> 0:05:31.596 sort of a connection to a recipient. And so that 0:05:31.356 --> 0:05:36.636 that the connection itself, building a connection that you that 0:05:36.716 --> 0:05:40.516 you feel that that is sturdy or beautiful or complex, 0:05:40.516 --> 0:05:43.916 that that that's the offering that you're rather than the 0:05:43.916 --> 0:05:46.196 peace itself, or rather yeah, rather than the piece itself. 0:05:46.756 --> 0:05:50.476 I've noticed, at least in the context of Superwolf, particularly 0:05:50.476 --> 0:05:54.236 the first album, there are lyrics that I find they 0:05:54.356 --> 0:05:58.916 pull me in emotionally and then they'll be I'll call 0:05:58.956 --> 0:06:04.756 them surprises, certain land mines lyrically that you might not 0:06:04.836 --> 0:06:12.516 be expected in a song that sounds like these sound intentional, unintentional, 0:06:13.356 --> 0:06:17.236 definitely intentional. I wish I could pull examples from from 0:06:17.236 --> 0:06:21.036 my brain. I can think of songwriters like John Prine 0:06:21.236 --> 0:06:23.596 or Bob McDill, who wrote a lot of songs that 0:06:23.676 --> 0:06:28.116 Don Williams ended up playing. Where do you know Don 0:06:28.156 --> 0:06:30.836 Williams music at all? You know, you know, good old 0:06:30.836 --> 0:06:33.796 boys like me. That song where he says, you know, uh, 0:06:34.356 --> 0:06:36.676 you know something I ran with the kids down a 0:06:36.756 --> 0:06:39.716 kid down the street who you know, got himself something 0:06:39.716 --> 0:06:42.116 like burned up on bourbon and speed. And of course 0:06:42.276 --> 0:06:44.436 in the chorus when he says those Williams boys and 0:06:44.436 --> 0:06:47.436 he says, Hank in Tennessee. And it still is always 0:06:47.476 --> 0:06:49.876 like something to marvel at. It's still a surprise, and 0:06:49.956 --> 0:06:54.156 it keeps me coming back. You know that song sounds 0:06:54.156 --> 0:06:56.236 like something You turn it on and it sounds exactly 0:06:56.276 --> 0:06:59.196 like what it sounds like. And then lyrically he keeps 0:07:00.436 --> 0:07:03.756 confounding the sound of the song. I don't know, I 0:07:03.796 --> 0:07:06.156 feel all of a sudden, I know I'm at home here. 0:07:06.236 --> 0:07:07.876 It's not you know, this is where I belong. I 0:07:07.956 --> 0:07:11.516 belong in this thing that's a little more convoluted or 0:07:11.556 --> 0:07:14.876 a labyrinthine then, But it's very friendly too, It's very 0:07:14.876 --> 0:07:17.476 open and loving because it sounds like something that you 0:07:17.556 --> 0:07:20.916 love right away. But if it only was something simple 0:07:20.996 --> 0:07:23.756 like that, like a fair faucet poster or something, you know, 0:07:23.756 --> 0:07:26.636 you would lose interest after a little while. Instead, it 0:07:26.676 --> 0:07:29.036 has a little bit of creepiness or a little bit 0:07:29.036 --> 0:07:31.876 of gore in there that keeps you on your toes 0:07:31.956 --> 0:07:35.836 and remembering that when the song starts again, you have 0:07:35.876 --> 0:07:39.276 a sense memory of This sounds pretty good, but it's 0:07:39.276 --> 0:07:42.236 actually even better than it sounds, because the lyrics are 0:07:42.236 --> 0:07:47.156 going to take me someplace that the music is belying great. 0:07:48.116 --> 0:07:52.996 Do you do songs typically start with a concept or 0:07:53.036 --> 0:07:58.076 a lyric. What's your way in? Typically? I like these days, 0:07:58.076 --> 0:08:02.756 I like triggers. For the past few years, my wife 0:08:02.796 --> 0:08:05.236 has done something for me which I need to get 0:08:05.236 --> 0:08:08.476 her to do again. Is I put a piece of 0:08:08.516 --> 0:08:11.676 paper on the wall and every day I just asked 0:08:11.676 --> 0:08:15.116 her to write a song title on that piece of paper. 0:08:15.716 --> 0:08:18.436 And then that just gives me something to sit down 0:08:18.436 --> 0:08:21.036 and stay in shape with. And every once in a while, 0:08:21.516 --> 0:08:26.636 something like I think the song my Blue Suit that 0:08:26.756 --> 0:08:30.436 it's on this new record, it was a Elsa title 0:08:30.476 --> 0:08:33.516 song where she just wrote my Blue Suit. But then 0:08:33.636 --> 0:08:36.196 then there's also there's three songs on this record where 0:08:36.236 --> 0:08:38.676 I think, up at the end of the street there 0:08:38.716 --> 0:08:41.716 was a bookstore and the guy who the guy would 0:08:41.716 --> 0:08:44.516 be able to buy overstock. There was a buyer who 0:08:44.516 --> 0:08:47.556 bought overstock and he curated his overstock you know, super 0:08:47.716 --> 0:08:54.556 discount new book selection amazingly and he put on the 0:08:54.556 --> 0:08:57.636 table one day this book called Falkland Road, which is 0:08:57.636 --> 0:09:02.796 about Mumbai red light district, and it's just kind of 0:09:02.836 --> 0:09:07.676 one picture per two pages and then a little maybe 0:09:07.676 --> 0:09:10.396 a sentence or two sentences are three sentences that could 0:09:10.396 --> 0:09:12.636 be a quote from an interview with one of the 0:09:12.636 --> 0:09:15.116 people who's in the photograph. And there's three songs from 0:09:15.116 --> 0:09:17.876 this record that that came like. And I was just 0:09:18.236 --> 0:09:20.796 sharing those with because I hadn't shown them to Matt 0:09:20.916 --> 0:09:23.476 until just like yesterday, right, man, Well, you hadn't shown 0:09:23.516 --> 0:09:26.476 them like that. I'd seen that photo, the first photo, 0:09:26.476 --> 0:09:28.196 the good to my Girls photo, I know, I'd seen 0:09:28.196 --> 0:09:30.436 that tools. Yeah, I'd seen that just at your house, 0:09:30.476 --> 0:09:33.836 I guess, sitting around or something, is that I mean, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, 0:09:33.876 --> 0:09:36.636 and Rick, I almost sent you these pictures as pre production, 0:09:36.676 --> 0:09:39.196 but then I said, fuck preproduction. But I thought that 0:09:39.196 --> 0:09:40.956 that was a really fascinating way in and kind of 0:09:40.996 --> 0:09:44.356 an insight into how will write words, which is, you know, 0:09:44.756 --> 0:09:47.996 like you look at a photograph, for example, do you 0:09:47.996 --> 0:09:49.716 mind if we listened to a song. Can we listen 0:09:49.756 --> 0:09:51.756 to Good to My Girls? Yeah? Good to my girls? 0:09:51.836 --> 0:10:09.236 Yeah we have way too naked scene. We are are 0:10:09.316 --> 0:10:19.796 not hard or bad, and I chop down trees and 0:10:20.276 --> 0:10:30.516 spitting faces and laugh when you are sad. Your happiness 0:10:30.716 --> 0:10:37.636 means almost less. That all that's in the world my 0:10:39.636 --> 0:10:47.276 existence his Oh, can't I guess? Because I'm good to 0:10:47.596 --> 0:10:56.436 my girls. I take them to the movies. I put 0:10:56.596 --> 0:11:02.076 food in their bellies, I sow the hose in their life, 0:11:02.236 --> 0:11:07.636 shut and temper any hoping. What else can I say? 0:11:08.316 --> 0:11:16.876 I didn't ask. I'm good to them and thereby my 0:11:17.116 --> 0:11:26.396 share of life. Day they make beautiful song. Thanks Rick, 0:11:26.636 --> 0:11:29.516 so so so. The line that the that the woman 0:11:29.556 --> 0:11:31.316 says is I'm good to my girls. I take them 0:11:31.316 --> 0:11:33.796 to the movies once a month. Business is bad now, 0:11:33.916 --> 0:11:36.596 but I still buy good food. I spent seven hundred 0:11:36.596 --> 0:11:40.276 and fifty rupees for clothes for Christmas. When I heard 0:11:40.316 --> 0:11:45.916 the song, I thought for sure it was an autobiographical song. 0:11:46.316 --> 0:11:48.516 Well it is, that's the thing I thought it would. 0:11:49.196 --> 0:11:51.476 But I thought it was I thought it was you 0:11:52.276 --> 0:11:55.316 talking about your wife. I assumed you had either a 0:11:55.436 --> 0:11:57.916 daughter or more than one. And you were talking about 0:11:57.956 --> 0:12:00.436 being good to you girls, and then you get to 0:12:00.556 --> 0:12:06.476 the hard part, and that's more like um self reflection. 0:12:06.796 --> 0:12:09.356 Concerns you have about yourself might not even be true, 0:12:09.476 --> 0:12:13.476 more like obsessive thoughts of not being good enough. It's 0:12:13.516 --> 0:12:15.916 just interesting like that. That's what I heard, is like, oh, 0:12:15.996 --> 0:12:18.396 it's this is this one's really about him? Well, I 0:12:18.476 --> 0:12:21.276 mean there's no other source from which to truly draw 0:12:21.396 --> 0:12:24.876 to get a you know, a multidimensional lyric, so that 0:12:24.916 --> 0:12:26.596 it comes from you know, that's the that's the ideas 0:12:26.636 --> 0:12:30.076 that it comes and triangulating. I can triangulate, you triangulate 0:12:30.116 --> 0:12:33.196 with this, madam, in order to make something that I 0:12:33.276 --> 0:12:35.836 can sing hopefully again and again and again and again 0:12:35.876 --> 0:12:38.316 and again and again and still engage. And then also 0:12:38.356 --> 0:12:41.236 an audience member can hear it again and again and again. 0:12:41.676 --> 0:12:45.356 And it comes from, you know, documenting a shared experience 0:12:45.476 --> 0:12:49.596 rather than a unique experience. What would be other lyrical 0:12:49.756 --> 0:12:55.796 influences for you? Historically? Danzig, Danzig, We've talked about this Rick, 0:12:55.836 --> 0:12:58.956 but Danzig, Yeah, I mean Danzig huge. I mean he's huge, 0:12:59.116 --> 0:13:02.196 and still like I understand that he was, you know, 0:13:02.476 --> 0:13:04.956 virtually a child when he wrote a lot of the 0:13:05.156 --> 0:13:08.276 you know, the lyrics that he wrote in the eighties, 0:13:08.436 --> 0:13:11.436 and yet I get so excited by the potential energy 0:13:11.516 --> 0:13:15.916 that's wound up in his lyrics. They're just so incredible 0:13:15.916 --> 0:13:17.996 and so beautiful that I always think, well, that's something 0:13:18.556 --> 0:13:20.836 to continue to aspire to, because if it, you know, 0:13:21.956 --> 0:13:25.076 too many writers write better as children than they do 0:13:25.236 --> 0:13:28.356 as adults, which is I think it's an absolute sin 0:13:29.076 --> 0:13:31.716 that it's allowed to happen, you know, that the songwriters 0:13:31.756 --> 0:13:34.876 themselves allowed to happen, and that people in the world 0:13:34.916 --> 0:13:37.476 allow it to happen as well, that we don't ask 0:13:37.676 --> 0:13:42.196 more of our senior lyricists or senior singers, expect more 0:13:42.276 --> 0:13:44.156 from them rather than oh this is as good, you know, 0:13:44.356 --> 0:13:47.356 or comparing them to the past. Yeah, talking, we're talking 0:13:47.356 --> 0:13:50.356 about all this stuff. Can can you devote like thirty 0:13:50.396 --> 0:13:54.436 five to forty seconds around the phenomenon of of Glenn 0:13:54.476 --> 0:14:01.116 Danzig writing the song for Roy Orbison? Sure had an 0:14:01.156 --> 0:14:04.956 opportunity to do a song with Roy Orbison, and I 0:14:05.076 --> 0:14:09.356 could find you know, I could cast any writer. And 0:14:09.516 --> 0:14:13.436 I knew that Glenn loved Roy, and I knew that 0:14:13.596 --> 0:14:15.836 he wrote great songs, and I knew that he would 0:14:15.876 --> 0:14:18.836 write a different song than anyone else who might write 0:14:18.836 --> 0:14:21.156 a song for Roy Orbison would write and I wanted 0:14:21.196 --> 0:14:25.476 to hear what that was. And he wrote, he wrote 0:14:25.756 --> 0:14:27.956 the song. He wrote, and we went and we played 0:14:27.996 --> 0:14:30.476 it for Roy, Me, Glenn and Roy. I remember we 0:14:30.556 --> 0:14:33.916 went to Roy's house in Malibu and Glenn played him 0:14:33.956 --> 0:14:36.476 the song and he loved Glenn just play it live 0:14:36.556 --> 0:14:39.236 for him, like played, So I think he did. Yeah. 0:14:39.356 --> 0:14:42.596 I can't really remember, but I think he did yeah. 0:14:42.676 --> 0:14:46.876 And then and he's like, Okay, I'm in let's do it. Yeah. 0:14:47.396 --> 0:14:49.716 But then takes a lot of I mean, that's a nice, beautiful, 0:14:49.956 --> 0:14:54.436 complicated relationship to voice and melody and connecting to artists 0:14:54.476 --> 0:14:57.956 who are makes so much sense. And and also Glenn's 0:14:58.156 --> 0:15:00.756 song on the first American record is That's I think 0:15:00.756 --> 0:15:04.156 it's my favorite song on the because he's so good, 0:15:04.236 --> 0:15:07.556 he's so brilliant at But but knowing, I mean, you 0:15:07.676 --> 0:15:11.956 have to understand, you have to have a pretty deep 0:15:12.116 --> 0:15:15.916 understanding of what a lyric is rick to risk, to 0:15:16.036 --> 0:15:18.036 take that risk, to know that it's a it's a 0:15:18.156 --> 0:15:20.796 risk that's going to pay off, because most people would 0:15:20.836 --> 0:15:23.556 would laugh at you. You know, I wouldn't let you 0:15:23.596 --> 0:15:24.876 know when we were when we were kids and we 0:15:24.996 --> 0:15:27.796 heard this legend that that Glenn had just you know 0:15:27.996 --> 0:15:29.676 it was working with Roy Orbison. We you know, it 0:15:29.756 --> 0:15:33.676 took us a year before we realized it was the truth. 0:15:33.716 --> 0:15:38.356 It sounded so ridiculously far fetched and perfect, but you 0:15:38.516 --> 0:15:41.356 had to have an understanding of like, oh, well, this 0:15:41.556 --> 0:15:44.916 guy understands how to build a song lyrically as well 0:15:44.956 --> 0:15:48.836 as melodically, and he probably studied under these masters, and 0:15:48.916 --> 0:15:50.316 so I can put him in the same room with 0:15:50.396 --> 0:15:52.916 these guys and everything's going to be just fine. It's 0:15:52.956 --> 0:15:55.476 also interesting this leads back to something we were talking 0:15:55.476 --> 0:15:58.436 about earlier about people doing great work when they're young. 0:16:00.236 --> 0:16:03.596 That we had. We had the elder statesman and Roy 0:16:04.556 --> 0:16:07.676 who could still do what Roy does, and we had 0:16:07.836 --> 0:16:11.476 the the performative performatively, and we had the young energy 0:16:12.516 --> 0:16:20.076 of Glenn Danzig like prime songwriting and it and I 0:16:20.156 --> 0:16:22.356 guess you could say the same things true for Trent 0:16:22.516 --> 0:16:26.556 Resiner and Hurt with Johnny. It's like, even though when 0:16:26.636 --> 0:16:28.636 Johnny sings it, it sounds like he wrote it, it 0:16:28.676 --> 0:16:32.236 sounds like he's telling his story, but the fact that 0:16:32.276 --> 0:16:33.956 it's written by, you know, a twenty two year old 0:16:34.036 --> 0:16:37.156 kid in his bedroom. It's just fascinating. It's fascinating how 0:16:37.236 --> 0:16:42.036 that works. Yeah, or I see a darkness in Johnny Cash. 0:16:42.796 --> 0:16:45.836 Same deal, Same deal. I wanted to I wanted now 0:16:45.876 --> 0:16:47.956 that I've always wanted to see the two of you 0:16:48.036 --> 0:16:53.636 guys together and ask about that that scenario which was Rick, 0:16:53.716 --> 0:16:56.196 I saw you at a party. I just gotten back 0:16:56.276 --> 0:16:58.756 from a European tour with Will, and we had a 0:16:58.836 --> 0:17:00.796 bonus show in New York. And I knew that you 0:17:00.796 --> 0:17:03.676 would you had been in contact with you would ask 0:17:03.716 --> 0:17:06.116 for some Will records because you were working with Johnny Cash. 0:17:06.596 --> 0:17:09.916 You were interested in in him checking Will's music. I 0:17:10.636 --> 0:17:13.156 had that intel, soho I went up to you, invited 0:17:13.196 --> 0:17:15.596 you to the show, and you were enthusiastic, and you 0:17:15.636 --> 0:17:18.556 went to the show, and then you guys could take 0:17:18.596 --> 0:17:20.596 over from there. Just about how it came to pass 0:17:20.676 --> 0:17:23.556 that Johnny Cash ended up doing one of Will's songs. Well, 0:17:23.596 --> 0:17:27.556 I didn't remember what you just I didn't remember meeting 0:17:27.596 --> 0:17:29.476 you at a party. Yeah, I didn't remember coming to 0:17:29.556 --> 0:17:32.196 the show, although I did remember seeing you in New York, 0:17:33.156 --> 0:17:38.356 Will at where was it Awry Ballroom? Yeah? And it was. 0:17:38.556 --> 0:17:42.156 It was a mesmerizing show. It was a mesmerizing show. 0:17:42.276 --> 0:17:44.556 It was a mind blowing show. And that's where and 0:17:44.596 --> 0:17:46.276 then I think that's where. I think that's where you. Yeah, 0:17:46.316 --> 0:17:50.156 you said that you all had cut the song and 0:17:50.436 --> 0:17:55.116 we're you know, and you said if I wanted to 0:17:55.236 --> 0:17:57.236 come out and or come to a session and play 0:17:57.316 --> 0:18:00.036 the piano part on it, that that that was something 0:18:00.116 --> 0:18:02.956 that was needed for the song. And I agreed, and 0:18:03.076 --> 0:18:06.116 we exchanged numbers, and then a couple of days later 0:18:06.356 --> 0:18:08.236 I called you and left a message admitting that I 0:18:08.556 --> 0:18:11.236 didn't know how to play the piano and asking if 0:18:11.236 --> 0:18:13.836 I could. I think I said just that I had 0:18:13.876 --> 0:18:16.396 no expectations, but the only if there was any way 0:18:16.796 --> 0:18:20.156 that I could be around John and June for for 0:18:20.236 --> 0:18:24.716 any moments, because they were, you know, together end separately heroes, 0:18:24.836 --> 0:18:27.756 and it's so rare, you know, because of so many 0:18:27.996 --> 0:18:31.476 bizarre communication and other logistical walls. It's so rare for 0:18:32.916 --> 0:18:36.636 younger musicians to have access to their heroes. And so 0:18:36.876 --> 0:18:39.276 here's this little crack, and I was just like, if 0:18:39.276 --> 0:18:41.796 I could, you know, yeah, you I had your ear, 0:18:41.836 --> 0:18:43.116 and if I could, if I could just sit and 0:18:43.236 --> 0:18:47.036 watch them do something working, and you were kind enough 0:18:47.076 --> 0:18:50.036 to say, yeah, Okay, we'll be right back with more 0:18:50.156 --> 0:18:56.676 from will all Them and Matt Sweeney. We're back with 0:18:56.836 --> 0:19:00.236 Rick Rubin, will all Them and Matt Sweeney. How did 0:19:00.276 --> 0:19:05.516 you guys meet on the street by our friend Britt Walford, 0:19:05.516 --> 0:19:08.076 the drummer from Slint and Britain Britain I grew up 0:19:08.076 --> 0:19:10.156 with together. Yeah, it was. It was. It was when 0:19:10.276 --> 0:19:13.996 like the I See a Darkness record, We my brother 0:19:14.116 --> 0:19:16.916 and some other musicians and I had started a small 0:19:16.996 --> 0:19:20.036 a smaller record label than Drag City UM to put 0:19:20.076 --> 0:19:22.956 out a few records, including I See a Darkness. And 0:19:23.276 --> 0:19:25.516 since we were, in many ways starting from scratch, I 0:19:25.876 --> 0:19:28.956 moved to the big city to uh, you know, get 0:19:29.036 --> 0:19:31.836 a to hire hire a publicist, and just to be 0:19:32.036 --> 0:19:36.996 more present for the delivery of this record than because 0:19:36.996 --> 0:19:39.276 I just knew I needed to be, just to figure out, well, 0:19:39.316 --> 0:19:41.716 how do you put a record out? And and so 0:19:41.756 --> 0:19:43.676 I was in New York and that's when we started 0:19:43.716 --> 0:19:48.436 to become friends. Tell me about the choice of recording 0:19:48.556 --> 0:19:53.116 under different names. For a long time, I thought, you know, records, 0:19:55.396 --> 0:19:57.476 why not file them under the title of the record 0:19:58.636 --> 0:20:01.996 because they are such, you know, oftentimes such different and 0:20:02.076 --> 0:20:05.556 distinct entities. UM and that, you know, it can be 0:20:05.716 --> 0:20:07.756 completely like it could be the same artist, but there's 0:20:07.836 --> 0:20:10.116 nobody else except for the artist, the art you know, 0:20:10.196 --> 0:20:13.596 quote unquote artist that's the same from another record. So 0:20:13.756 --> 0:20:15.916 why not just say it's a record, it's this record. 0:20:16.516 --> 0:20:19.156 And so for just a few years in the nineties 0:20:19.196 --> 0:20:21.076 and when I was trying to figure out what it 0:20:21.236 --> 0:20:23.716 was to make music and write songs and make records, 0:20:24.076 --> 0:20:28.556 just thought, ah, well, I don't you know, for me, 0:20:28.676 --> 0:20:30.116 I just want to make records. I don't want to 0:20:30.356 --> 0:20:33.316 create an artist persona or an artist name or a 0:20:33.356 --> 0:20:34.916 band or anything like that. I just want to make 0:20:34.956 --> 0:20:37.876 a record, you know, keep making records. And thought, well, 0:20:37.916 --> 0:20:39.716 if I modify the name a little bit, just to 0:20:39.796 --> 0:20:42.156 reflect that you should be focusing on the record and 0:20:42.236 --> 0:20:46.076 not on anything else. It turned out, you know, I 0:20:46.196 --> 0:20:48.556 learned in a few years just the model was too 0:20:49.276 --> 0:20:54.276 foreign to how things work. And people started to, you know, say, well, 0:20:54.316 --> 0:20:56.196 what's up with the names, and it's like, no, no, 0:20:56.836 --> 0:21:00.916 that's the opposite, you know, it's you know, so I realized, like, oh, well, 0:21:00.956 --> 0:21:02.916 just come up with a name and then forget about it. 0:21:03.116 --> 0:21:04.676 So it just came up with the name Bonding Prince 0:21:04.756 --> 0:21:07.436 Billy and just it doesn't mean anything. It's just a 0:21:07.516 --> 0:21:11.596 way for distributors and you know, streaming services to you know, 0:21:12.036 --> 0:21:15.956 organize things. From the outside, it seemed like you were 0:21:16.556 --> 0:21:19.556 doing whatever you could to have people not find your work. 0:21:19.716 --> 0:21:22.716 That's what it seemed like. I never just like like, wow, 0:21:22.916 --> 0:21:24.596 I guess he doesn't want us to hear it, because 0:21:24.636 --> 0:21:26.596 we want to want people to find it, not based 0:21:26.676 --> 0:21:30.516 on a name, you know, based on you know, way 0:21:30.556 --> 0:21:33.196 based on do you hearing it on the radio, or 0:21:33.556 --> 0:21:35.516 a friend saying I like this song. Do you like 0:21:35.676 --> 0:21:38.236 this song? Yes, I like this song, and not like, oh, 0:21:38.276 --> 0:21:40.876 I'm so into fucking you know whatever the birthday party 0:21:40.916 --> 0:21:45.076 and it's like, okay, that's cool. That's that said, I'm 0:21:45.156 --> 0:21:49.076 so into and just be like okay, well, you know, 0:21:49.276 --> 0:21:52.236 yeah Bridges to Babylon insane record, dude, but you know, yeah, 0:21:52.316 --> 0:21:53.836 so so just you know, have it be as much 0:21:53.836 --> 0:21:55.596 about the music as possible. That was That was it, 0:21:55.716 --> 0:21:57.636 And just have it not be as you know, as 0:21:57.676 --> 0:22:00.036 little bullshit as possible, so that when you go to 0:22:00.156 --> 0:22:01.796 play shows, you know, you don't have a bunch of 0:22:02.036 --> 0:22:04.316 you know, people who don't care where they are. They 0:22:04.396 --> 0:22:05.956 care where they are they you know, you have a 0:22:06.036 --> 0:22:10.556 room full of good It's a wild choice, you know. Rick, 0:22:11.516 --> 0:22:13.836 So when I met when I met Will, So we 0:22:13.876 --> 0:22:15.796 had a friendship through our friend Brick. But then in 0:22:15.876 --> 0:22:18.356 the office I asked him the same question because he 0:22:18.436 --> 0:22:20.676 had just made this record Colossia Darkness, and he's called 0:22:20.716 --> 0:22:23.436 himself Bonnie Prince Billy, and so I remember it like 0:22:23.516 --> 0:22:25.636 I was actually sitting behind a desk and I was like, dude, 0:22:25.676 --> 0:22:28.196 why are you calling it Bonnie Prince Billy? And I remember, 0:22:28.236 --> 0:22:30.396 WILLI you go, I'm trying to alienate my fan base. 0:22:33.116 --> 0:22:36.476 It worked, Yeah, No, it didn't work because that was kids. 0:22:37.516 --> 0:22:39.436 The opposite happened. I mean, if the idea is just 0:22:39.596 --> 0:22:42.196 like that, now I can still we can you know, 0:22:42.356 --> 0:22:44.156 we can go play shows and I can I can 0:22:44.236 --> 0:22:49.156 look forward to meeting people, which I do because because 0:22:49.236 --> 0:22:52.516 there was a consistency, because people are there not because 0:22:52.636 --> 0:22:55.756 of you know, whatever they're they're there because they they're 0:22:56.636 --> 0:22:59.916 anticipating that they may witness some music that's gonna do 0:23:00.076 --> 0:23:03.116 something for them. Do you remember when you each heard 0:23:03.236 --> 0:23:05.956 the other one for the first time? Yeah, I had. 0:23:06.036 --> 0:23:08.996 I knew Will's recorded music, and I'd seen him play live, 0:23:09.156 --> 0:23:11.876 but yeah, the first I mean again, it happened really quickly, 0:23:11.956 --> 0:23:14.156 like Will came over to where me and Britt were saying, 0:23:14.196 --> 0:23:16.636 and I had a guitar and I was dicking around 0:23:16.676 --> 0:23:18.116 on it, and Will said, oh, that sounds really good, 0:23:19.076 --> 0:23:22.876 and then we were recording a few days later, recording 0:23:22.916 --> 0:23:25.916 a few days later for what There's a French film 0:23:25.956 --> 0:23:28.756