Speaker 1: Pushkin. In two thousand and five, single Will Oldham and
Speaker 1: guitarist Matt Sweeney released the Superwolf album, which has developed
Speaker 1: a cult following that includes Rick Rubin, who absolutely fell
Speaker 1: in love with the project. Now sixteen years later, they're
Speaker 1: back with the follow up, Superwolves. Other folks will make
Speaker 1: mistakes and leave you with the mass. Other folks have
Speaker 1: ways of fucking past, but you know best they're lost.
Speaker 1: To begin with, This new album was five years in
Speaker 1: the making, a leisurely pace that allowed Oldham and Sweeney
Speaker 1: to be incredibly intentional with their creative choices. Oldham, who's
Speaker 1: recorded under a number of different monikers in the past,
Speaker 1: including Bonnie Prince Billy, wrote all the lyrics before sending
Speaker 1: them over to Sweeney to write his guitar parts. The
Speaker 1: duo also added a new flavor, tapping the West African
Speaker 1: musician m Dumaktar to play guitar on a few tracks.
Speaker 1: On today's episode, Rick Rubin talks to Oldham and Sweeney
Speaker 1: about their work together, which Rick considers some of his
Speaker 1: favorite contemporary music, and it's also why he's used Sweeney
Speaker 1: on a lot of the sessions he's produced, including the
Speaker 1: Dixie Chicks, Cat Stevens and Adele. Will Oldham talks about
Speaker 1: his philosophy on connecting with his audience and how if
Speaker 1: this pandemic were to take us all, super Wolves would
Speaker 1: be a great album to go out on. This is
Speaker 1: broken record liner notes for the digital Age. I'm justin Richmond.
Speaker 1: Here's Rick Rubin with will Oldham and Matt Sweeney. How
Speaker 1: are we being graced with a new super Wolf project
Speaker 1: all this time since the last one. Matt and I
Speaker 1: thought it could be a good idea. We didn't think
Speaker 1: about it till till too late, but it could be
Speaker 1: a good idea to get up to speed with your
Speaker 1: conversational style in this forum. So I was listening a
Speaker 1: little bit earlier today to a conversation that you were
Speaker 1: having with Adam Cohen. You were saying that there's you
Speaker 1: just can't control it. You can't control He says specifically
Speaker 1: that a record isn't a Fay dot COMPI And he
Speaker 1: has a beautiful little French Canadian accent when he says it,
Speaker 1: and he you know, and he goes on to say,
Speaker 1: even with the right songs and the right producer and
Speaker 1: the right blah blah blah, you know, you can't guarantee
Speaker 1: and you say, yeah, you can't, there's no And I
Speaker 1: feel like if you just do something like take your time,
Speaker 1: you can kind of get close to guaranteeing it. So
Speaker 1: to answer your question, we just took a little bit
Speaker 1: of time. We wanted to make a good record. As
Speaker 1: you've probably experienced most records that you probably feel strongly about,
Speaker 1: whether you participated in them or not, something did just happen,
Speaker 1: of course that made them specifically rise above the other records.
Speaker 1: But having been aware of that, if you have the
Speaker 1: leisure because you're doing other things, to build something slowly
Speaker 1: and just be sure that you only act when the
Speaker 1: charge is there, absolutely, would you say, in the writing process,
Speaker 1: do you consider the audience or not at all? Yeah, No,
Speaker 1: it's it's all about the audience, like entirely. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: whole reason to sit down and write is for the audience. Interesting,
Speaker 1: it's probably less than fifty fifty that that would be
Speaker 1: the answer to people who write songs. Yeah, you never
Speaker 1: hear people say that. I feel like Chuck Berry is
Speaker 1: the kind of person who would say it. He would,
Speaker 1: he would be a little colder in the way that
Speaker 1: he phrased it. But but if you read about him
Speaker 1: talking earlier in his career. He's less less harsh. But yeah,
Speaker 1: people don't say that. I had a revelation recently that
Speaker 1: I'll share with you, which is I've always worked towards
Speaker 1: this idea of greatness and they didn't know what greatness was,
Speaker 1: but but that was the feeling. It's like, it's not
Speaker 1: it's not about selling a lot, it's not about making
Speaker 1: anybody else like it. It's about it has to be great.
Speaker 1: It has to be great in a way where it
Speaker 1: stands up to the test of time and it's forever,
Speaker 1: and it's like the the bar was higher. And recently
Speaker 1: I've come to realize that actually we're making art as
Speaker 1: an offering to God. And if you're making art for God,
Speaker 1: there are no shortcuts to take, there are no low
Speaker 1: vibration energies involved in the process. It's like, that's the
Speaker 1: that's what we're really aiming for. Is this um a
Speaker 1: sharing on a different plane? Really, I like to think
Speaker 1: that in what we do, or at least what I do,
Speaker 1: the offering is not the work. The offering is the
Speaker 1: connection made between the work and the audience. You know,
Speaker 1: my mother was a visual artist. Nobody ever saw her
Speaker 1: visual art. It's it's great, but she I would maybe
Speaker 1: say that those could be considered offerings to God because
Speaker 1: they weren't shared with anybody, so in and of themselves,
Speaker 1: that's what they were. But because our labor goes to
Speaker 1: making a connection, you know, you're you're asking for an audience.
Speaker 1: For to have any degree of success, whether it's financial
Speaker 1: or spiritual or artistic, there does need to be some
Speaker 1: sort of a connection to a recipient. And so that
Speaker 1: that the connection itself, building a connection that you that
Speaker 1: you feel that that is sturdy or beautiful or complex,
Speaker 1: that that that's the offering that you're rather than the
Speaker 1: peace itself, or rather yeah, rather than the piece itself.
Speaker 1: I've noticed, at least in the context of Superwolf, particularly
Speaker 1: the first album, there are lyrics that I find they
Speaker 1: pull me in emotionally and then they'll be I'll call
Speaker 1: them surprises, certain land mines lyrically that you might not
Speaker 1: be expected in a song that sounds like these sound intentional, unintentional,
Speaker 1: definitely intentional. I wish I could pull examples from from
Speaker 1: my brain. I can think of songwriters like John Prine
Speaker 1: or Bob McDill, who wrote a lot of songs that
Speaker 1: Don Williams ended up playing. Where do you know Don
Speaker 1: Williams music at all? You know, you know, good old
Speaker 1: boys like me. That song where he says, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: you know something I ran with the kids down a
Speaker 1: kid down the street who you know, got himself something
Speaker 1: like burned up on bourbon and speed. And of course
Speaker 1: in the chorus when he says those Williams boys and
Speaker 1: he says, Hank in Tennessee. And it still is always
Speaker 1: like something to marvel at. It's still a surprise, and
Speaker 1: it keeps me coming back. You know that song sounds
Speaker 1: like something You turn it on and it sounds exactly
Speaker 1: like what it sounds like. And then lyrically he keeps
Speaker 1: confounding the sound of the song. I don't know, I
Speaker 1: feel all of a sudden, I know I'm at home here.
Speaker 1: It's not you know, this is where I belong. I
Speaker 1: belong in this thing that's a little more convoluted or
Speaker 1: a labyrinthine then, But it's very friendly too, It's very
Speaker 1: open and loving because it sounds like something that you
Speaker 1: love right away. But if it only was something simple
Speaker 1: like that, like a fair faucet poster or something, you know,
Speaker 1: you would lose interest after a little while. Instead, it
Speaker 1: has a little bit of creepiness or a little bit
Speaker 1: of gore in there that keeps you on your toes
Speaker 1: and remembering that when the song starts again, you have
Speaker 1: a sense memory of This sounds pretty good, but it's
Speaker 1: actually even better than it sounds, because the lyrics are
Speaker 1: going to take me someplace that the music is belying great.
Speaker 1: Do you do songs typically start with a concept or
Speaker 1: a lyric. What's your way in? Typically? I like these days,
Speaker 1: I like triggers. For the past few years, my wife
Speaker 1: has done something for me which I need to get
Speaker 1: her to do again. Is I put a piece of
Speaker 1: paper on the wall and every day I just asked
Speaker 1: her to write a song title on that piece of paper.
Speaker 1: And then that just gives me something to sit down
Speaker 1: and stay in shape with. And every once in a while,
Speaker 1: something like I think the song my Blue Suit that
Speaker 1: it's on this new record, it was a Elsa title
Speaker 1: song where she just wrote my Blue Suit. But then
Speaker 1: then there's also there's three songs on this record where
Speaker 1: I think, up at the end of the street there
Speaker 1: was a bookstore and the guy who the guy would
Speaker 1: be able to buy overstock. There was a buyer who
Speaker 1: bought overstock and he curated his overstock you know, super
Speaker 1: discount new book selection amazingly and he put on the
Speaker 1: table one day this book called Falkland Road, which is
Speaker 1: about Mumbai red light district, and it's just kind of
Speaker 1: one picture per two pages and then a little maybe
Speaker 1: a sentence or two sentences are three sentences that could
Speaker 1: be a quote from an interview with one of the
Speaker 1: people who's in the photograph. And there's three songs from
Speaker 1: this record that that came like. And I was just
Speaker 1: sharing those with because I hadn't shown them to Matt
Speaker 1: until just like yesterday, right, man, Well, you hadn't shown
Speaker 1: them like that. I'd seen that photo, the first photo,
Speaker 1: the good to my Girls photo, I know, I'd seen
Speaker 1: that tools. Yeah, I'd seen that just at your house,
Speaker 1: I guess, sitting around or something, is that I mean, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: and Rick, I almost sent you these pictures as pre production,
Speaker 1: but then I said, fuck preproduction. But I thought that
Speaker 1: that was a really fascinating way in and kind of
Speaker 1: an insight into how will write words, which is, you know,
Speaker 1: like you look at a photograph, for example, do you
Speaker 1: mind if we listened to a song. Can we listen
Speaker 1: to Good to My Girls? Yeah? Good to my girls?
Speaker 1: Yeah we have way too naked scene. We are are
Speaker 1: not hard or bad, and I chop down trees and
Speaker 1: spitting faces and laugh when you are sad. Your happiness
Speaker 1: means almost less. That all that's in the world my
Speaker 1: existence his Oh, can't I guess? Because I'm good to
Speaker 1: my girls. I take them to the movies. I put
Speaker 1: food in their bellies, I sow the hose in their life,
Speaker 1: shut and temper any hoping. What else can I say?
Speaker 1: I didn't ask. I'm good to them and thereby my
Speaker 1: share of life. Day they make beautiful song. Thanks Rick,
Speaker 1: so so so. The line that the that the woman
Speaker 1: says is I'm good to my girls. I take them
Speaker 1: to the movies once a month. Business is bad now,
Speaker 1: but I still buy good food. I spent seven hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty rupees for clothes for Christmas. When I heard
Speaker 1: the song, I thought for sure it was an autobiographical song.
Speaker 1: Well it is, that's the thing I thought it would.
Speaker 1: But I thought it was I thought it was you
Speaker 1: talking about your wife. I assumed you had either a
Speaker 1: daughter or more than one. And you were talking about
Speaker 1: being good to you girls, and then you get to
Speaker 1: the hard part, and that's more like um self reflection.
Speaker 1: Concerns you have about yourself might not even be true,
Speaker 1: more like obsessive thoughts of not being good enough. It's
Speaker 1: just interesting like that. That's what I heard, is like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's this is this one's really about him? Well, I
Speaker 1: mean there's no other source from which to truly draw
Speaker 1: to get a you know, a multidimensional lyric, so that
Speaker 1: it comes from you know, that's the that's the ideas
Speaker 1: that it comes and triangulating. I can triangulate, you triangulate
Speaker 1: with this, madam, in order to make something that I
Speaker 1: can sing hopefully again and again and again and again
Speaker 1: and again and again and still engage. And then also
Speaker 1: an audience member can hear it again and again and again.
Speaker 1: And it comes from, you know, documenting a shared experience
Speaker 1: rather than a unique experience. What would be other lyrical
Speaker 1: influences for you? Historically? Danzig, Danzig, We've talked about this Rick,
Speaker 1: but Danzig, Yeah, I mean Danzig huge. I mean he's huge,
Speaker 1: and still like I understand that he was, you know,
Speaker 1: virtually a child when he wrote a lot of the
Speaker 1: you know, the lyrics that he wrote in the eighties,
Speaker 1: and yet I get so excited by the potential energy
Speaker 1: that's wound up in his lyrics. They're just so incredible
Speaker 1: and so beautiful that I always think, well, that's something
Speaker 1: to continue to aspire to, because if it, you know,
Speaker 1: too many writers write better as children than they do
Speaker 1: as adults, which is I think it's an absolute sin
Speaker 1: that it's allowed to happen, you know, that the songwriters
Speaker 1: themselves allowed to happen, and that people in the world
Speaker 1: allow it to happen as well, that we don't ask
Speaker 1: more of our senior lyricists or senior singers, expect more
Speaker 1: from them rather than oh this is as good, you know,
Speaker 1: or comparing them to the past. Yeah, talking, we're talking
Speaker 1: about all this stuff. Can can you devote like thirty
Speaker 1: five to forty seconds around the phenomenon of of Glenn
Speaker 1: Danzig writing the song for Roy Orbison? Sure had an
Speaker 1: opportunity to do a song with Roy Orbison, and I
Speaker 1: could find you know, I could cast any writer. And
Speaker 1: I knew that Glenn loved Roy, and I knew that
Speaker 1: he wrote great songs, and I knew that he would
Speaker 1: write a different song than anyone else who might write
Speaker 1: a song for Roy Orbison would write and I wanted
Speaker 1: to hear what that was. And he wrote, he wrote
Speaker 1: the song. He wrote, and we went and we played
Speaker 1: it for Roy, Me, Glenn and Roy. I remember we
Speaker 1: went to Roy's house in Malibu and Glenn played him
Speaker 1: the song and he loved Glenn just play it live
Speaker 1: for him, like played, So I think he did. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I can't really remember, but I think he did yeah.
Speaker 1: And then and he's like, Okay, I'm in let's do it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But then takes a lot of I mean, that's a nice, beautiful,
Speaker 1: complicated relationship to voice and melody and connecting to artists
Speaker 1: who are makes so much sense. And and also Glenn's
Speaker 1: song on the first American record is That's I think
Speaker 1: it's my favorite song on the because he's so good,
Speaker 1: he's so brilliant at But but knowing, I mean, you
Speaker 1: have to understand, you have to have a pretty deep
Speaker 1: understanding of what a lyric is rick to risk, to
Speaker 1: take that risk, to know that it's a it's a
Speaker 1: risk that's going to pay off, because most people would
Speaker 1: would laugh at you. You know, I wouldn't let you
Speaker 1: know when we were when we were kids and we
Speaker 1: heard this legend that that Glenn had just you know
Speaker 1: it was working with Roy Orbison. We you know, it
Speaker 1: took us a year before we realized it was the truth.
Speaker 1: It sounded so ridiculously far fetched and perfect, but you
Speaker 1: had to have an understanding of like, oh, well, this
Speaker 1: guy understands how to build a song lyrically as well
Speaker 1: as melodically, and he probably studied under these masters, and
Speaker 1: so I can put him in the same room with
Speaker 1: these guys and everything's going to be just fine. It's
Speaker 1: also interesting this leads back to something we were talking
Speaker 1: about earlier about people doing great work when they're young.
Speaker 1: That we had. We had the elder statesman and Roy
Speaker 1: who could still do what Roy does, and we had
Speaker 1: the the performative performatively, and we had the young energy
Speaker 1: of Glenn Danzig like prime songwriting and it and I
Speaker 1: guess you could say the same things true for Trent
Speaker 1: Resiner and Hurt with Johnny. It's like, even though when
Speaker 1: Johnny sings it, it sounds like he wrote it, it
Speaker 1: sounds like he's telling his story, but the fact that
Speaker 1: it's written by, you know, a twenty two year old
Speaker 1: kid in his bedroom. It's just fascinating. It's fascinating how
Speaker 1: that works. Yeah, or I see a darkness in Johnny Cash.
Speaker 1: Same deal, Same deal. I wanted to I wanted now
Speaker 1: that I've always wanted to see the two of you
Speaker 1: guys together and ask about that that scenario which was Rick,
Speaker 1: I saw you at a party. I just gotten back
Speaker 1: from a European tour with Will, and we had a
Speaker 1: bonus show in New York. And I knew that you
Speaker 1: would you had been in contact with you would ask
Speaker 1: for some Will records because you were working with Johnny Cash.
Speaker 1: You were interested in in him checking Will's music. I
Speaker 1: had that intel, soho I went up to you, invited
Speaker 1: you to the show, and you were enthusiastic, and you
Speaker 1: went to the show, and then you guys could take
Speaker 1: over from there. Just about how it came to pass
Speaker 1: that Johnny Cash ended up doing one of Will's songs. Well,
Speaker 1: I didn't remember what you just I didn't remember meeting
Speaker 1: you at a party. Yeah, I didn't remember coming to
Speaker 1: the show, although I did remember seeing you in New York,
Speaker 1: Will at where was it Awry Ballroom? Yeah? And it was.
Speaker 1: It was a mesmerizing show. It was a mesmerizing show.
Speaker 1: It was a mind blowing show. And that's where and
Speaker 1: then I think that's where. I think that's where you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you said that you all had cut the song and
Speaker 1: we're you know, and you said if I wanted to
Speaker 1: come out and or come to a session and play
Speaker 1: the piano part on it, that that that was something
Speaker 1: that was needed for the song. And I agreed, and
Speaker 1: we exchanged numbers, and then a couple of days later
Speaker 1: I called you and left a message admitting that I
Speaker 1: didn't know how to play the piano and asking if
Speaker 1: I could. I think I said just that I had
Speaker 1: no expectations, but the only if there was any way
Speaker 1: that I could be around John and June for for
Speaker 1: any moments, because they were, you know, together end separately heroes,
Speaker 1: and it's so rare, you know, because of so many
Speaker 1: bizarre communication and other logistical walls. It's so rare for
Speaker 1: younger musicians to have access to their heroes. And so
Speaker 1: here's this little crack, and I was just like, if
Speaker 1: I could, you know, yeah, you I had your ear,
Speaker 1: and if I could, if I could just sit and
Speaker 1: watch them do something working, and you were kind enough
Speaker 1: to say, yeah, Okay, we'll be right back with more
Speaker 1: from will all Them and Matt Sweeney. We're back with
Speaker 1: Rick Rubin, will all Them and Matt Sweeney. How did
Speaker 1: you guys meet on the street by our friend Britt Walford,
Speaker 1: the drummer from Slint and Britain Britain I grew up
Speaker 1: with together. Yeah, it was. It was. It was when
Speaker 1: like the I See a Darkness record, We my brother
Speaker 1: and some other musicians and I had started a small
Speaker 1: a smaller record label than Drag City UM to put
Speaker 1: out a few records, including I See a Darkness. And
Speaker 1: since we were, in many ways starting from scratch, I
Speaker 1: moved to the big city to uh, you know, get
Speaker 1: a to hire hire a publicist, and just to be
Speaker 1: more present for the delivery of this record than because
Speaker 1: I just knew I needed to be, just to figure out, well,
Speaker 1: how do you put a record out? And and so
Speaker 1: I was in New York and that's when we started
Speaker 1: to become friends. Tell me about the choice of recording
Speaker 1: under different names. For a long time, I thought, you know, records,
Speaker 1: why not file them under the title of the record
Speaker 1: because they are such, you know, oftentimes such different and
Speaker 1: distinct entities. UM and that, you know, it can be
Speaker 1: completely like it could be the same artist, but there's
Speaker 1: nobody else except for the artist, the art you know,
Speaker 1: quote unquote artist that's the same from another record. So
Speaker 1: why not just say it's a record, it's this record.
Speaker 1: And so for just a few years in the nineties
Speaker 1: and when I was trying to figure out what it
Speaker 1: was to make music and write songs and make records,
Speaker 1: just thought, ah, well, I don't you know, for me,
Speaker 1: I just want to make records. I don't want to
Speaker 1: create an artist persona or an artist name or a
Speaker 1: band or anything like that. I just want to make
Speaker 1: a record, you know, keep making records. And thought, well,
Speaker 1: if I modify the name a little bit, just to
Speaker 1: reflect that you should be focusing on the record and
Speaker 1: not on anything else. It turned out, you know, I
Speaker 1: learned in a few years just the model was too
Speaker 1: foreign to how things work. And people started to, you know, say, well,
Speaker 1: what's up with the names, and it's like, no, no,
Speaker 1: that's the opposite, you know, it's you know, so I realized, like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: just come up with a name and then forget about it.
Speaker 1: So it just came up with the name Bonding Prince
Speaker 1: Billy and just it doesn't mean anything. It's just a
Speaker 1: way for distributors and you know, streaming services to you know,
Speaker 1: organize things. From the outside, it seemed like you were
Speaker 1: doing whatever you could to have people not find your work.
Speaker 1: That's what it seemed like. I never just like like, wow,
Speaker 1: I guess he doesn't want us to hear it, because
Speaker 1: we want to want people to find it, not based
Speaker 1: on a name, you know, based on you know, way
Speaker 1: based on do you hearing it on the radio, or
Speaker 1: a friend saying I like this song. Do you like
Speaker 1: this song? Yes, I like this song, and not like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm so into fucking you know whatever the birthday party
Speaker 1: and it's like, okay, that's cool. That's that said, I'm
Speaker 1: so into and just be like okay, well, you know,
Speaker 1: yeah Bridges to Babylon insane record, dude, but you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: so so just you know, have it be as much
Speaker 1: about the music as possible. That was That was it,
Speaker 1: And just have it not be as you know, as
Speaker 1: little bullshit as possible, so that when you go to
Speaker 1: play shows, you know, you don't have a bunch of
Speaker 1: you know, people who don't care where they are. They
Speaker 1: care where they are they you know, you have a
Speaker 1: room full of good It's a wild choice, you know. Rick,
Speaker 1: So when I met when I met Will, So we
Speaker 1: had a friendship through our friend Brick. But then in
Speaker 1: the office I asked him the same question because he
Speaker 1: had just made this record Colossia Darkness, and he's called
Speaker 1: himself Bonnie Prince Billy, and so I remember it like
Speaker 1: I was actually sitting behind a desk and I was like, dude,
Speaker 1: why are you calling it Bonnie Prince Billy? And I remember,
Speaker 1: WILLI you go, I'm trying to alienate my fan base.
Speaker 1: It worked, Yeah, No, it didn't work because that was kids.
Speaker 1: The opposite happened. I mean, if the idea is just
Speaker 1: like that, now I can still we can you know,
Speaker 1: we can go play shows and I can I can
Speaker 1: look forward to meeting people, which I do because because
Speaker 1: there was a consistency, because people are there not because
Speaker 1: of you know, whatever they're they're there because they they're
Speaker 1: anticipating that they may witness some music that's gonna do
Speaker 1: something for them. Do you remember when you each heard
Speaker 1: the other one for the first time? Yeah, I had.
Speaker 1: I knew Will's recorded music, and I'd seen him play live,
Speaker 1: but yeah, the first I mean again, it happened really quickly,
Speaker 1: like Will came over to where me and Britt were saying,
Speaker 1: and I had a guitar and I was dicking around
Speaker 1: on it, and Will said, oh, that sounds really good,
Speaker 1: and then we were recording a few days later, recording
Speaker 1: a few days later for what There's a French film
Speaker 1: director named Bertrand Bonello and he had made a he
Speaker 1: was weight making a movie called Kilcus Show's Door Ganique
Speaker 1: and he wanted to h I think he wanted to
Speaker 1: license the song that I had recorded, and I said,
Speaker 1: I don't like to license songs, but if you would
Speaker 1: consider commissioning a song, I'd like to, you know, I'd
Speaker 1: love to write a song, you know, and if you
Speaker 1: have the time to do that, and he bit so
Speaker 1: he you know, I told me the story and gave
Speaker 1: me give us a time frame. And that's right when
Speaker 1: Matt picked up his guitar and I was working on
Speaker 1: this song and just said, I'm supposed to record this
Speaker 1: song sometime in the next couple of weeks. Are you down?
Speaker 1: And it was interesting, It was it was kind of
Speaker 1: around the time that I had I feel like turned
Speaker 1: into corner on guitar, and I a sort of confidently fingerpick,
Speaker 1: and I had kind of made a leap in playing guitar.
Speaker 1: Come to think of it, actually, what like like I
Speaker 1: had sort of gotten finger picking down right when I
Speaker 1: met you, Will. Yeah, it felt it felt new too,
Speaker 1: like you were really writing it. Yeah, it was really exciting, Matt.
Speaker 1: What had you done already in music at this point
Speaker 1: when you met Will? I had done I had When
Speaker 1: I met Will, I had already done Chavez, which was
Speaker 1: my nineties rock band, which still maybe we'll play again,
Speaker 1: but yeah, so I had done that, and it had
Speaker 1: been slowing down. The other band members were moving on
Speaker 1: with their lives and stuff, so so I was. I
Speaker 1: actually had some time and was sort of in a
Speaker 1: space of uh, not having my regular band to play with,
Speaker 1: and I sang for that band, and that band was
Speaker 1: very much of a collaborative kind of thing, and then
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, I kind of didn't have as
Speaker 1: much to do, and I've been finger picking and stuff.
Speaker 1: It was it was fortuitous that I met like a
Speaker 1: good singer who was who shared a lot of the
Speaker 1: same tastes in music that I did, and whose songs
Speaker 1: I liked, which is Will and you played and sang me, yeah,
Speaker 1: I didn't know that you sang come on, dude, had
Speaker 1: no idea. You didn't really had no idea. I had
Speaker 1: a really exciting moment, Rick. I was opening on a
Speaker 1: tour for New York and there was a couple of
Speaker 1: days off and I wanted to see and we were
Speaker 1: in the New York area, so I went out to
Speaker 1: mont Talk because I wanted to see it. I've never
Speaker 1: been there. And you know, got a motel room and
Speaker 1: I went to the gas station. They had DVDs for rent,
Speaker 1: and I rented a DVD to watch a movie in
Speaker 1: my little motel room. And it's it's a movie about
Speaker 1: it's a sort of a comedy, a meth comedy, you know,
Speaker 1: a crystal meth comedy called Spun. And I just put
Speaker 1: it on and this, you know, the opening song comes on.
Speaker 1: It's really cool sounding. It sounds fucking great, and just
Speaker 1: the music sounds great, and then uh, and it's guitars
Speaker 1: and then this voice comes on and I'm like, ah,
Speaker 1: I know this voice. I know that it's this song's
Speaker 1: so cool, it's so good, it's so effective. I know
Speaker 1: this voice, but I couldn't figure out what it was,
Speaker 1: and I had to wait till the end credits, and
Speaker 1: it turns out it was Sweeney singing a cover of
Speaker 1: Iron Maiden's Number of the Beasts with the sort of
Speaker 1: acoustic version of the Zuan band that he was a
Speaker 1: part of back in the early two thousands. Amazing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: was it just the two of you? It was just
Speaker 1: Meat guitar and Corrigan kind of looking yeah. Yeah. It's
Speaker 1: really a sweet, sweet sounding song and the and the
Speaker 1: vocals are awesome. So as soon as that that, you know, discontinued,
Speaker 1: the first thing that I think either of us did
Speaker 1: musically when Zuan ended was get together and make the
Speaker 1: Superwolf record. Wow. Yeah, Yeah. What had happened was, yeah,
Speaker 1: the Juan stop playing. Kind of in the middle of
Speaker 1: a tour, all of a sudden, I was back in
Speaker 1: New York and Will wrote and said, Hey, I have
Speaker 1: a show. I have a solo show booked at a
Speaker 1: big venue in London. Would you want to maybe come
Speaker 1: and you know, I'll come over there and you can
Speaker 1: play a couple of songs and stuff. And there was
Speaker 1: a tacit understanding that I was kind of screwed. They
Speaker 1: got Unwill's part, so it was it was a nice
Speaker 1: offer for just for something for me to ev and
Speaker 1: do and then and I said yes, And then he
Speaker 1: wrote and the email it wrote an email and said challenge.
Speaker 1: And he said, hey, how about I send you some
Speaker 1: lyrics and you write some songs and we play them
Speaker 1: at that show. So I said okay, And so then
Speaker 1: he sent the lyrics to what are you Beast for THEE?
Speaker 1: And bed is for Sleeping? Yeah, and so so so
Speaker 1: that was the beginning of Super Bowl. So I have
Speaker 1: these lyrics, you know, and and I have to write
Speaker 1: a song to play in front of like three thousand
Speaker 1: people in London in like a month or something like that.
Speaker 1: Unbelievable and it's a challenge. When somebody says that, it's
Speaker 1: it's kind of terrifying, you know what I mean. But
Speaker 1: then at the same time it made me respond, you know,
Speaker 1: and getting these incredible lyrics and then being like, holy shit,
Speaker 1: I had this guy thinks I'm good enough to do this,
Speaker 1: And then that made me do good work. Do you guys?
Speaker 1: If we listen to the beast in me a Beast
Speaker 1: for THEE? I'm sorry wrong song, Let's do it. Why
Speaker 1: aren't you come to me? You could so easily take
Speaker 1: me in your arms and see they donkey a beast
Speaker 1: for thee. If you had half a mind, eve worldly
Speaker 1: things behind, devote to be kind you too, me beast
Speaker 1: for thee. Love in some way choose God's plan. Can
Speaker 1: easy boos one bone and blood mass we fuges, and
Speaker 1: I can be beast for thee. So hearing that, it
Speaker 1: just makes me wonder, why do you guys ever make
Speaker 1: musical part? You need to make that. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: the joy of collaboration is comes from accessing somebody else's world,
Speaker 1: and if if if you're already fully full time accessing
Speaker 1: that person's world, you know, it's the joy is Yeah,
Speaker 1: going out and doing things and then coming back together.
Speaker 1: And this is what I got. Oh yeah, well this
Speaker 1: is what I got. Oh no, you also have this
Speaker 1: amazing yeah for sure. Like I was thinking when I
Speaker 1: was listening to that, I was like, it really is
Speaker 1: cool how this music sounds. The record that that that's
Speaker 1: coming out sounds like this record that's sixteen years old,
Speaker 1: Like it's just it's all one thing. But I was
Speaker 1: thinking that the reason that this record, that the new
Speaker 1: record is good, has a lot to do with experiences
Speaker 1: that I had with you, Rick, just as far as
Speaker 1: like being thrown so many Kerner balls in high pressure situations,
Speaker 1: you know, Like, I mean, dude, I had no idea
Speaker 1: what I was doing. I told it the first time
Speaker 1: that I met you were I was like, I was like, thanks,
Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm what do I do? I
Speaker 1: don't know what I'm doing? And you had you had
Speaker 1: this really empowering line, you know. I was like, so
Speaker 1: this is we were recording Johnny Cash songs. We were
Speaker 1: recording you just to a click track and Johnny Cash's voice,
Speaker 1: and it's Tom Petty's band, and I'm the new guy
Speaker 1: and it's Tom Petty's band, plus Smoky Hormel. He's like
Speaker 1: the world's greatest guitar player. And then it's me and
Speaker 1: I's and Rickett invited me into this, into this group,
Speaker 1: and and and you know, I was like, like, do
Speaker 1: I like just make up stuff like what I would
Speaker 1: do normally, Like just kind of make up stuff like
Speaker 1: what if that's not appropriate? And you go, Rick says,
Speaker 1: you're isolated. We could just hit a race. Yes, But
Speaker 1: what was so great? It was a great thing because
Speaker 1: I was like, it totally me. Yeah, it made me
Speaker 1: feel really really free. And also I think you I
Speaker 1: think you said, you know, I think you said, you know,
Speaker 1: you do you like do what you want to do.
Speaker 1: You're isolated. We could always say to race and then
Speaker 1: you kind of gave a devilish smile. Um, But like
Speaker 1: that was a really big deal, you know, just even
Speaker 1: that was like all right, you know, like I definitely
Speaker 1: felt like going back in with Will was like, okay,
Speaker 1: I could, I could get to where we need to
Speaker 1: go quicker, and I feel way more sure footed and stuff.
Speaker 1: And also I'm really grateful that I had the time
Speaker 1: to be to stumble around the dark and be terrified
Speaker 1: and have all these experiences that led like I can't
Speaker 1: sound the way that I sound that I sound now
Speaker 1: without having all this crazy you know, face plants and
Speaker 1: successes and just general high wire terror that that that
Speaker 1: you provided me with. Thanks, Well, the reason you were
Speaker 1: there was to do what you do. That's the only
Speaker 1: like if it was just to have someone play guitar.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of people who play guitar, but I
Speaker 1: wanted Matt Sweeney to play guitar. And the only reason
Speaker 1: you want Matt Sweeney to play guitars because he plays
Speaker 1: like Matt Sweeney. Yeah, it's so cool how Matt Sweeney
Speaker 1: play like Matt Sweeney, just like it's it's amazing. It's ridiculous,
Speaker 1: sciting to be in the recording studio and to hear
Speaker 1: you know, and to hear it, you know, going down
Speaker 1: on tape or what passes for tape right now is
Speaker 1: just to hear it and just think, well, there it is,
Speaker 1: it's right there. It's really funny that you're you had
Speaker 1: that moment renting a DVD and hearing a voice and
Speaker 1: wondering who it was, and it being Matt and me
Speaker 1: listening to the Superwolf album and hearing that guitar and
Speaker 1: going who is that? And both of us came to
Speaker 1: Matt and and it's interesting that, like, for you, the
Speaker 1: vocal was the spark from me the guitar with the spark,
Speaker 1: But it definitely came from not knowing what we were
Speaker 1: listening to. To like, whoa this and to hear something
Speaker 1: that you don't know what it is and to care
Speaker 1: enough about finding what it is is a really big deal.
Speaker 1: That doesn't happen again, It doesn't happen so often, especially
Speaker 1: in the pre Shazam days. It was really uh yeah,
Speaker 1: a job to make that happen. Now. I was I
Speaker 1: was talking to someone about the first time I heard
Speaker 1: the Sean Marshall cat Power and it was on the
Speaker 1: radio and Virginia somewhere, and it was a woman singing
Speaker 1: this exploded, deconstructed version of Hank Williams. I can't help
Speaker 1: it if I'm still in love with you. And it
Speaker 1: took me months months of asking people, do you know
Speaker 1: I heard this song? You didn't know. I don't know
Speaker 1: what you're talking about, and they would give me these
Speaker 1: stupid ideas of who it could have been. No, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: you don't know what I'm saying. This crazy thing, it's
Speaker 1: you know. And months yeah, yeah, and now it is
Speaker 1: a little easier. We'll be back after a quick break
Speaker 1: with Will Oldham and Matt Sweeney. We're back with the
Speaker 1: rest of Rick Rubin's conversation with will Oldham and Matt Sweeney.
Speaker 1: But before we jump back in, let's hear some of
Speaker 1: their new song, My Popsicle. We crawled towards a warmth
Speaker 1: less night, towards a wild and endless night. My pop
Speaker 1: my pops circles, My pups circles, My pops circles made
Speaker 1: by your mind and me. Time Square Once wears dark
Speaker 1: and wild and frightening to a guileless child. My Pop,
Speaker 1: my pops, sacles, maybe you and Wow. The music you
Speaker 1: guys make is I could literally listen to it forever.
Speaker 1: It's unbelievable. It's like it I might like listening to
Speaker 1: your music more than any other music. So it really
Speaker 1: is ridiculous. How it. I feel like I'm the audience
Speaker 1: you're making it for me. It's it is ridiculous. It's
Speaker 1: I mean, it's ridiculous. But I think I think that
Speaker 1: some of that is you know, when we were when
Speaker 1: we had this sequenced and then mastered, my brother Paul
Speaker 1: mastered it, and my wife and I, you know, one evening,
Speaker 1: we're ready to listen to the master and listen to
Speaker 1: it all the way through and throughout the record. I
Speaker 1: was listening to it. I was crying sometimes, and I
Speaker 1: was laughing a whole lot, and you know, my wife asked,
Speaker 1: you know, She's like, why are you laughing? And it's
Speaker 1: hard to fully explain, but part of it is gratitude
Speaker 1: for the way that it came together, Because it ended
Speaker 1: up coming together in such way that it is a
Speaker 1: the things that records have done for me is not
Speaker 1: something that's easy to find. I just it felt good
Speaker 1: to yeah, to have participated in making a record that
Speaker 1: has this kind of content, musical and lyrical content, and
Speaker 1: that it's worth sitting with it song after song, and
Speaker 1: I think I kept laughing because I would remember where
Speaker 1: I was in the record and think, oh, this part
Speaker 1: still hasn't happened, and I feel like this, and this
Speaker 1: part is still going to happen, and I feel like this.
Speaker 1: It's been a long time since I've been carried away
Speaker 1: by a new record. I guess it's funny in this year,
Speaker 1: this crazy year where everyone's perception is so so so different,
Speaker 1: but but just feeling like, wow, it's not a bad
Speaker 1: record to you know, if if the plague takes us,
Speaker 1: you know, I feel okay about this being the record
Speaker 1: that we ended things with. It's really a beauty. It's
Speaker 1: a beauty that correct anything different in the process between
Speaker 1: making this album and the first album sixteen years ago. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we had a Ti Egg band. I'm the super Bowl record.
Speaker 1: The only outside musician is Pete right, Yeah, Pete talent
Speaker 1: and the drummer, you know, So it was that it
Speaker 1: was insular and then with this one, which is pretty
Speaker 1: interesting that the way that this record got kick started
Speaker 1: was when I had done a recording session with m
Speaker 1: du Moktar, who rick if you checked him out yet?
Speaker 1: Oh mind, Yeah, you're going to lose your mind. Okay.
Speaker 1: So Mr Martar is a try I got like, like
Speaker 1: to New Orleans. He's from Yeah, he's from Hierias, from
Speaker 1: the desert, and he's an explosive, mind blowing musician. And
Speaker 1: we got a chance to use him and his band
Speaker 1: on a song that Will and I had already written.
Speaker 1: And the song was actually had a lot of parts,
Speaker 1: a lot of this and that to it, and these
Speaker 1: dogs nailed it, which is pretty wild because they're not
Speaker 1: like trained musicians they and they play a very specific style.
Speaker 1: But because we had such an incredible connection with these guys,
Speaker 1: and particularly like that they seem to actually bob, I mean,
Speaker 1: they clearly vibed with how Will sang and how I
Speaker 1: played guitar, like we meshed and that was exciting and
Speaker 1: definitely exciting enough for because Will and I have had
Speaker 1: already been exchanged writing songs with the idea of recording,
Speaker 1: but this was enough for Will to be like, well,
Speaker 1: I guess we should probably use them as a band,
Speaker 1: you know, you know, try writing like maybe that should be.
Speaker 1: That was the way we started the Super Bowl procort,
Speaker 1: just like, use this mind blowing band and see what happens.
Speaker 1: And so we did. Yeah, we had, we had, we had.
Speaker 1: We had a fantastic recording session with them on another
Speaker 1: unrelated song, and or everybody, everybody at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, you know, it's one of those days in
Speaker 1: the recording studio where everybody's glowing at the end of
Speaker 1: the day and you just think, we'd like to do
Speaker 1: this again. Sometimes Oh yeah, we would too, Let's do
Speaker 1: it again, you know. So it was just up to
Speaker 1: when when they were going to come back to the
Speaker 1: United States of America, and when they did, you know,
Speaker 1: we said, well, if you've got a few extra days
Speaker 1: in New York, can we book a session and we'll
Speaker 1: go back in and do more. And then so we
Speaker 1: knew we had to get We knew I had to
Speaker 1: get our act together by then. Yeah. Yeah. And the
Speaker 1: song that we recorded in that session one was a
Speaker 1: competition that came together with all of us in a room,
Speaker 1: which is also like very very very different than everything else, um,
Speaker 1: which is everything. Yeah, every so, yeah, every every Like
Speaker 1: the night before the session, you know, the afternoon before
Speaker 1: the session, the song didn't exist in any way, shape
Speaker 1: or form. And then that that night we all got
Speaker 1: together in an apartment and everything, all of the music,
Speaker 1: all the lyrics, all the melodies, everything came together that night.
Speaker 1: And then we attracted them. And as far as like
Speaker 1: the power of like music connecting. Uh just they where
Speaker 1: the town that they live in is a twenty eight
Speaker 1: hour bus ride to the nearest airport, okay, like so
Speaker 1: like these guys are from a different place, you know,
Speaker 1: so so you know the connection it felt good, you know,
Speaker 1: and and uh so we came over the song together.
Speaker 1: And then we also got to use them on songs
Speaker 1: that we'd written before. Um and and we were pretty
Speaker 1: conscrientious about what we were what what the other songs were,
Speaker 1: you know, like sort of taking advantage of using these musicians.
Speaker 1: For example, the song I'm a Youth, which is an
Speaker 1: Irish traditional traditional Irish song. Well again addressing the differences
Speaker 1: between the yeah, MD's on that the first record we
Speaker 1: did it, you know, we spent probably up to a
Speaker 1: year putting the songs together. Then we went in and
Speaker 1: for a week tracked and mixed in Shelbyville, Kentucky. One
Speaker 1: session the two of us, my brother Paul engineering, our
Speaker 1: friend Pete playing drums. This time. You know, we wrote
Speaker 1: over the course of five years and did it in
Speaker 1: two sessions, one in New York and then the other
Speaker 1: in Nashville with ferg and then the mdu Maktar ensemble
Speaker 1: playing on the New York thing. So those are the
Speaker 1: significant differences in how the record itself was the two
Speaker 1: records were made. So check out Holiday. I mean as
Speaker 1: far as like, just as an example, this is what
Speaker 1: happened when we got together with these gentlemen from from
Speaker 1: a very different place. Yeah, tip and then drive you
Speaker 1: Go and gry y'all, drill muss even a death again,
Speaker 1: all of death. You know. We put this song out
Speaker 1: as a single couple few weeks ago, right and and
Speaker 1: people have talked about it, and there's been a positive
Speaker 1: response to it, right um, there has been. As far
Speaker 1: as anything that I've heard from anybody, I haven't heard
Speaker 1: word one mentioning the fact that there are lyrics to
Speaker 1: the song, much less what the lyrics are. You know,
Speaker 1: in general, it's interesting that people don't really listen to lyrics.
Speaker 1: You know, most people will say, I don't even listen
Speaker 1: to the lyrics, you know. That's that's what streaming, the
Speaker 1: streaming model is built around, is the people not listening
Speaker 1: to lyrics. Like when we made the song in the
Speaker 1: recording studio, we made the song which we tracked it
Speaker 1: all live except for the lead guitar, and that was
Speaker 1: that's him Do's guitar. And for some reason, I can't
Speaker 1: remember if he was I think he maybe he had
Speaker 1: he had a friend of his like died in an
Speaker 1: automobile accident in Africas. He was on the phone and
Speaker 1: you know, he was so overwhelmed with grief he couldn't
Speaker 1: play with us. So we played. And then I think
Speaker 1: two days later we like, you know, would you play
Speaker 1: on this song? And and he's sitting there to go
Speaker 1: into play, and uh, we're all sitting there. I'm sitting
Speaker 1: on the floor at his feet, and Matt says, well,
Speaker 1: you know, to help him him do why don't you
Speaker 1: will want you explain you know, what the song is about.
Speaker 1: And I'm taken aback because you know, I didn't have this.
Speaker 1: I wrote the lyrics on three days before and so
Speaker 1: I didn't filter anything, you know, and and it's essentially
Speaker 1: just about the horror and desperation of years of having
Speaker 1: of my mom living in you know, being in communicado
Speaker 1: because of Alzheimer's disease and living in a nursing home
Speaker 1: and what it's like to go to her, you know,
Speaker 1: on on an extremely regular basis. And so okay, I'll
Speaker 1: fucking explain these lyrics. I'm not sure if it's going
Speaker 1: to help his guitar playing or not. We'll see, you know,
Speaker 1: with this song, because in the past, Steam will like
Speaker 1: be like, hey, the song, so go like that, you know,
Speaker 1: like like I've seen I've seen you given that direction
Speaker 1: or I had seen to go to that direction before.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm thinking. And also I'm kind
Speaker 1: of curious because all I know, I think I knew
Speaker 1: I don't know if I really heard could hear any
Speaker 1: of the things, any of the actual words. I could
Speaker 1: hear the melody that he was singing, but everything was
Speaker 1: why we we we recorded the song live. The vocal
Speaker 1: is live in a really loud room, you know, so
Speaker 1: so I did not know what the words were, so
Speaker 1: I figured, you know, and you know, how how is
Speaker 1: m do gonna know what the words are anyway. So
Speaker 1: then Will says what the words are about, and it's shocking,
Speaker 1: you know, And and it spurs a conversation then because
Speaker 1: MD begins to go into a tirade about how shitty
Speaker 1: Americans are to their elders. And you know, I have
Speaker 1: a similar sense, you know, like the horror of visiting
Speaker 1: my mom. You know, a huge part of the horror
Speaker 1: of visiting my mom in this place is thinking, like,
Speaker 1: what brought circumstances, you know, what what brought this circumstance
Speaker 1: to happen that my mother that I am a responsible
Speaker 1: human being, a functioning, fucking responsible human being, and and
Speaker 1: I don't have it, you know, I can't live a
Speaker 1: life and also take care of take care of her,
Speaker 1: and there's not a support system to take care of
Speaker 1: her so that she can stay at home, you know.
Speaker 1: But but he's you know, basically like hammering everything that
Speaker 1: I felt shitty about in my life for the past
Speaker 1: five years and just saying you, you know, you suck,
Speaker 1: you fucking suck, because this is who you are. You know,
Speaker 1: That's what I'm hearing, you know, yeah, you know. And
Speaker 1: then and then I eventually like have to leave. I'm
Speaker 1: so upset I have to leave, and and this the
Speaker 1: session kind of falls apart that week, I don't sleep
Speaker 1: for days. Anyway. I hear it as like one of
Speaker 1: the strengths I think of my working with with Matt
Speaker 1: is that he allows for a greater amount of vulnerability
Speaker 1: in the in the lyric and then also in the
Speaker 1: in the in the singing, and I hear nothing but
Speaker 1: this horrific vulnerable vulnerability in that song. And so and
Speaker 1: it's also, you know, I hear the electricity of the
Speaker 1: excitement of our collaboration with the ensemble from niger Um.
Speaker 1: But it it sits for me beautifully in the record
Speaker 1: because I have, you know, because it's it's you know,
Speaker 1: people people say like, oh, it's this propulsive rock song
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, and I'm like, Okay, to me, it's this,
Speaker 1: you know, really hard song about how we what do
Speaker 1: you do about the fact that you know the you
Speaker 1: are of the guilty mistreating children in these death institutions,
Speaker 1: you know, these institutions that are built around, you know,
Speaker 1: allowing people to die ignored. Hey Jam, Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: hey Jam. Anything else, you guys feel like we should
Speaker 1: talk about anything that would be helpful or interesting. We
Speaker 1: do good. You're really good at this, Rick, Thank you
Speaker 1: so much for doing this, Thanks for having it. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Thanks to Matt Sweeney and Will Oldam for talking about
Speaker 1: their creative collaboration with rad To hear super Wolves along
Speaker 1: with our favorite Bonnie Prince Billy songs, head to Broken
Speaker 1: Record podcast dot com. Be sure to subscribe to our
Speaker 1: YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast,
Speaker 1: where we can find new and old episodes. You can
Speaker 1: follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is
Speaker 1: producer of help from Leo Rose, Jason Gambrel, Martin Gonzalez,
Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, and Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering help from Nick Chafee.
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Meal of the Broken Record is
Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries and if you'd like to
Speaker 1: show please remember to share, rate, and review us on
Speaker 1: your podcast. Act of the music. Expect any beats. I'm
Speaker 1: justin Richmond bass