1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Remember remember the fifth of November. It's a thing that 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:08,480 Speaker 1: we reference pretty often in this classic episode which is 3 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: about Guy Fox, but maybe not in the way you think. 4 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 2: Was it the Gunpowder treason and plot? Was that? The 5 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 2: next line I always associated with V for Vendetta. Oh wonderful, 6 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 2: Alan Moore, there is If you guys are you're missing 7 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 2: your Game of Thrones, well your luck because House of 8 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 2: the Dragon just came back on and it's also a 9 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 2: pretty strong start. I kind of forgot what a good 10 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 2: cliffhanger that first season ended up. It kind of won 11 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:38,480 Speaker 2: me over in the end. But Kit Harrington, who played 12 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:42,840 Speaker 2: John Snow in the original Game of Thrones series, now 13 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 2: is starting in a series on Apple TV I believe 14 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 2: called Gunpowder that is the story of the Gunpowder plot, 15 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 2: of which Guy Fox was a participants. Yes. 16 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, and there has been such tremendous interest in Guy 17 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: Fox because of as you mentioned, V for Vendetta, also 18 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: because the decentralized hacking group Anonymous use the Guy Fowx mask. Yeah, 19 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: and there is still a bit of a conspiracy of 20 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: foot depending on which historian you ask. 21 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 2: I don't haven't seen the series yet, but I have 22 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 2: a feeling that some of this stuff is addressed in 23 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 2: Gunpowder because I thought that Guy Fox was like the 24 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 2: main guy. Uh no, pun intended. But when I was 25 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 2: looking up to see, like, oh, is this is this 26 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 2: series actually about this? There is another person who is 27 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 2: the leader of the ring leader, you know, in a 28 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 2: big way. Guy Fox is kind of just one of 29 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 2: the underlings in a way. And so you're right through 30 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 2: that marketing historical revision. Guy Fox kind of became this centerpiece, 31 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:55,559 Speaker 2: became this symbol. But was it something of a false 32 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 2: flag situation? Did he do what he was purported to 33 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 2: have done? What's the real truth behind Guy Fox? 34 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: And also would we have wanted him to succeed? 35 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,359 Speaker 2: Right here we go. 36 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Okay, so check 37 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: this out. In the course of our research for today's episode, 38 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: I discovered one of the longest sentences I have read 39 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: in a cartoonishly long amount of time. 40 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:55,119 Speaker 2: Do we have time for this? We do? We do? 41 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: I just want you to I just want you to 42 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: check out how long the sentences. Keep in mind it 43 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: is all one sentence. 44 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 2: Give it to my Lord. 45 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: Out of the love I bear to some of your friends. 46 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: I have a care for your preservation. Therefore, I would 47 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: advise you, as you tender your life, to devise some 48 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: excuse to shift your attendance at this parliament. For God 49 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,519 Speaker 1: and Man have concurred to punish the wickedness of this time. 50 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: And think not slightly of this advertisement. But retire yourself 51 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: into your country, where you may expect the event in safety. 52 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: For though there may be no appearance of any stir 53 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: yet I say they shall receive a terrible blow this parliament, 54 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: and yet they shall not see who hurts them. This 55 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: counsel is not to be condemned, because it may do 56 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: you good and can do you no harm. For the 57 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: danger is pasted as soon as you have burnt the letter, 58 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: and I hope God will give you the grace to 59 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: make good use of it, to whose holy protection I 60 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: commend you. Holy smokes. My name's Ben, my name is Nolan. 61 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: That is the way my mom sends text messages. There 62 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: are twelve commas in this paragraph masquerading as a sentence. 63 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 2: Okay, my mom doesn't even bother using commas, did I say? 64 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 2: I'm noll I'm distracted by by the length of that 65 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 2: sentence enough, I'm mulling it over. What does it mean, Ben, 66 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 2: what does it mean? 67 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: This is a letter that was sent to the Lord 68 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 1: mont Eagle to warn him of a terrorist plot. A 69 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: terrorist plot, you say, yes, yes, one involving gunpowder. I 70 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,919 Speaker 1: think you mean the infamous gunpowder plot of November of 71 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 1: sixteen oh five. Remember remember the fifth of November with 72 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: gunpowder treason and plot. I see no reason why the 73 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: gunpowder treason should ever be forgot right, Yes, yes, the 74 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: very same nol And that is why you and I, 75 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: along with our super producer Casey Pegram, are delving into 76 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:58,919 Speaker 1: some British history, something that has encountered a resurrection in 77 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: terms of popularity in the United States ever since the 78 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: two thousand and six release of the film V for Vendetta, 79 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 1: an adaptation of an earlier graphic novel. 80 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 2: Right by Alan Moore, and it tells the story of 81 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 2: an anarchist who plots to overthrow sort of a dystopian 82 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 2: future government and uses this mask of the face of 83 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 2: Guy Fox as kind of a symbol of rising up 84 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 2: against the oppressors. 85 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 1: Right, and for many people who learned the broad strokes 86 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: of this event in school, Guy Fox is often portrayed 87 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: as the primary character, the protagonist or antagonist depending upon 88 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: your perspective, it's. 89 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:47,479 Speaker 2: True, but as it turns out, he was really more of, 90 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 2: I don't know, not a patsy. He knew what he 91 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 2: was getting into, but he certainly wasn't the brains behind 92 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,679 Speaker 2: the operation. He was just the poor sap what got caught. 93 00:05:56,120 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, And let's set the stage here for 94 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:04,719 Speaker 1: what exactly happened. Let's start with the facts right before 95 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 1: we get into some of the ridiculousness. 96 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 2: Let's do it. 97 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: So, Henry Eighth, this guy ruled England, he had six wives, 98 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: and at the time the country was Catholic. 99 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 2: I mean that rotund fellow with the chicken leg at 100 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 2: the Renaissance Fair. 101 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 1: Very same. I think that might be an actor. 102 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure our nemesis, the quizter Jonathan Strickland, knows 103 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 2: Henry the Eighth, or at least the actor that portrays 104 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 2: him at the Renaissance Fair Peak behind the Curtain, Strickland 105 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 2: spends many of his hours when he's not podcasting and 106 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 2: tormenting us as a Renaissance Fair actor. 107 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and he's been doing it for quite a while. 108 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 1: I bet you're correct. I bet he's plugged into the 109 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: Renaissance festival scene. 110 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 2: Well, if he pops up at some point, we'll have 111 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 2: to ask him about that. 112 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 1: Yes, perhaps we can also ask him to sing a 113 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: snatch of the famous oldie I'm Henry the Eighth. 114 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 2: Yes, And speaking of Henry the Eighth, I am Henry 115 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 2: the Eighth. I am What role did he play in 116 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 2: kind of setting the stage for this treasonous plot? 117 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: Yes, excellent question. You see, at the time that he 118 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: ruled England, the country was Catholic, at least at first, 119 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: because his wife at the time, Catherine of Aragon, could 120 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: not bear him a male heir. And because of this, 121 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: Henry the Eighth said, well, why are we even married? 122 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: What's the point of this matrimony? 123 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 2: Well, what's a big deal. I mean, if you're trying 124 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 2: to preserve your legacy as the patriarch of an entire nation, 125 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 2: you need yourself. A boy, A prince, A princess just 126 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 2: won't do the trick. These were very misogynistic times, and 127 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 2: if he felt this marriage was fruitless and not bearing 128 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 2: him the desired offspring, then he was going to have 129 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 2: to do something about it. But unfortunately, under the laws 130 00:07:55,880 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 2: of Catholicism and the pope, divorce just was not thing. 131 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 2: You couldn't You couldn't do it. Even the king couldn't do. 132 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: It, even the king and so so Henry said, you 133 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: know what, I'm done with the Church, and he finally 134 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: got the divorce he wanted. But this created intense interreligious 135 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: confusion because his three children retained Catholic religious beliefs, but 136 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: they became politically opposed to the Church's doctrine, and this 137 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: led to persecution of Catholics in England. 138 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:33,599 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and a lot of historians conjecture that Henry himself, 139 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 2: behind closed doors pretty much remained Catholic. He was a 140 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 2: Protestant in name only a Pino. Yes, So Henry died 141 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 2: as people tend to do. 142 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: I think of gout of rich living right. He had 143 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: a very fatty liver, and his son Edward took the throne. 144 00:08:56,160 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: Edward was followed by Mary, and Mary led a Catholic reign, 145 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 1: but when Elizabeth took the throne in fifteen fifty eight, 146 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:08,839 Speaker 1: England switched from a Catholic to a Protestant nation. 147 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:11,839 Speaker 2: Isn't it interesting how he finally got that heir in Edward. 148 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:13,439 Speaker 2: And I think he was kind of a weedy, little 149 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 2: sickly fellow hemophilia and then just did not fit the bill. 150 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 2: And then, of course we have a legacy, despite Henry's 151 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 2: best efforts and throwing his country into religious turmoil, a 152 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 2: succession of very powerful, badass women. 153 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:33,199 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, oh what Webb's history weaves. You never quite 154 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: know the ending of a tale, right, And Catholics had 155 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: discriminatory policies placed against them. They couldn't hold mass, for instance. 156 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 2: That's right. Many Catholic priests were imprisoned and even put 157 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:54,199 Speaker 2: to death, and Catholics who refused to attend Protestant services 158 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:59,319 Speaker 2: would be fined, and those fines increased exponentially over the 159 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 2: years as the throne switched hands. 160 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: Absolutely, and this is why Catholics who lived in England 161 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: under this discriminatory system had high hopes when James of 162 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 1: Scotland became the king, because you know, his mother Mary 163 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: was Catholic. Wouldn't he be a little less uncool at least? 164 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: And initially he actually waived those fines, which really got 165 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: people's hopes up, Catholics specifically thinking okay, we've got a 166 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: friend in James, you know, But he pulled the bait 167 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: and switch of the century and ended up being even 168 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: harsher to Catholics than his predecessor had been. And that's 169 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:43,239 Speaker 1: when people had just had enough and some of these Catholics, 170 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 1: various groups got together and hatched several well known plots 171 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: to assassinate James in the hopes of switching the tide 172 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 1: of history and the religious leanings of the country. 173 00:10:58,000 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 2: Right. 174 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, And we think of this period of time usually 175 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: in terms of the Gunpowder Plot. But Noel, you raise 176 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 1: an excellent point. It was one of several plots. There 177 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: was the by plot spelled like bye bye in sixteenh three, 178 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 1: and their aim was to kidnap James. And then there 179 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: was the main plot, of which the Bye plot was 180 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: a part, which involved replacing James with his cousin Arabella 181 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: Stewart or Arbella Stewart. 182 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 2: And the thing that's interesting about these is like you 183 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 2: have to wonder what were they thinking because it was 184 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 2: largely a Protestant country at this point. I think way 185 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 2: more people were practicing Protestantism than Catholicism. So if they 186 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:49,559 Speaker 2: did succeed, short of recruiting some other country, it will 187 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 2: get into this. With the Gunpowder plot, there were attempts 188 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 2: to attract Spain to aid in the Catholic cause in England. 189 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 2: But what did they expect to happen that all of 190 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 2: a sudden, like all of these Protestants that were the majority, 191 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 2: we're just gonna like decide to be on board and 192 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:10,079 Speaker 2: not see them as utter zealots and terrorists. 193 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, because what we have seen typically is that 194 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: across the span of history, extremism does not make for 195 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 1: a welcoming argument, especially to your opponents. Right, So, if 196 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 1: these plots had succeeded, right, and the ruling powers of 197 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: the day became Catholic, it's pretty unlikely that all of 198 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: the Protestant population would just shrug and say, ah, good game. 199 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 1: That probably wasn't going to happen. But that was not 200 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: a consideration in the minds of these conspirators. And these 201 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 1: were actual conspiracies, and all of this because of the 202 00:12:54,760 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 1: whims of a fat man. Well, you know, no king 203 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: is perfect. The plot the gun does it thicken? Yes, 204 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 1: the plot does thicken. The gunpowder plot especially. There's a 205 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: great article on how Stuff Works by our friend Candice 206 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 1: Gibson that looks at the germination of the gunpowder plot, 207 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: and one way that she describes it, which I love, 208 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: is she says, if you can imagine the cast of 209 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 1: the Ocean's Eleven trilogy in breeches and broad callers, you've 210 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: got an inklean of the crew assembled to take down 211 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,079 Speaker 1: James and leaders of Parliament in the Gunpowder plot. 212 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 2: And that crew was led sort of the brad Pitt 213 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 2: character in this story was a man by the name 214 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 2: of Robert Katsby, and he was a nobleman who had 215 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 2: participated in a previous rebellion known as Essex's Rebellion, which 216 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 2: was another unsuccessful rebellion where the second Earl of Essex 217 00:13:54,640 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 2: led a charge to depose Elizabeth I of England or 218 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 2: at least kind of splinter her inner circle and influence policy. 219 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,079 Speaker 2: And that didn't work. So this guy's already coming into 220 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 2: this with an axe to grind and that rebellious kind 221 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 2: of attitude of not accepting the status quo, and you know, 222 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 2: come hell or high water, he's gonna get his way. 223 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. He is, in the parlance of our time, a 224 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: veteran terrorist. The plan was kill the king, killed James, 225 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: and then when his daughter ascends to the throne, marry 226 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 1: her off to a Catholic, thereby redefining England's religious identity. 227 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: You can already see here that this master plan is 228 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: assuming that the daughter will be a puppet royal right 229 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: and has no agency of her own. And I like 230 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: your comparison of Katsby as the brad Pitt. Here's the 231 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: crew he recruited. He got a guy named John Wright, 232 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: a fellow named Thomas Winter, another Thomas, this one Thomas Percy, 233 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: and of course Guy Fox. And I think a lot 234 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: of people perhaps erroneously assume that Guy Fox was playing 235 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: the role that was actually played by Robert Katsby. Guy 236 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: Fox came in the mix. He was not the brad Pitt. No, 237 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: he was really kind of a heavy. He had a 238 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: lot of experience in combat fighting Protestant rebels in the 239 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: Spanish Netherlands, and he had kind of gotten at least 240 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: maybe not buddy buddy, but close enough to the King 241 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: of Spain that he actually asked him for help in 242 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: starting an English uprising against James, who was just the enemy. 243 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 2: Of Catholics far and wide. And he even changed his 244 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 2: name or started referring to himself as Guido instead of 245 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 2: Guy in sixteen oh five because it gave him more 246 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 2: of a connection to the papacy in Rome. And sort 247 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 2: of more of a cosmopolitan identity that was tied more 248 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 2: to Catholicism than to being an Englishman. 249 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 1: And we cantice paid the question here did he refer 250 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: to himself in third person? We can only hope that 251 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: he was one of those people. But what we do 252 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: know for sure is that due to his military experience, 253 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: he was acquainted with using and more importantly, gaining access 254 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: to gunpowder. They spent more than a year, more than 255 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: seventeen months or so organizing this plot, and ultimately they 256 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: got thirty six barrels of gunpowder, and they rented a 257 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: building close to Parliament with the aim of tunneling underground 258 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: to place the barrels of gunpowder in the cellars of 259 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: the Parliament building. 260 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 2: So, just to just to clarify for me, ben I 261 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 2: kind of got a little little turned around here when 262 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 2: I was reading this. Their goal was to tunnel into 263 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 2: Parliament from this rented basement because it was directly under 264 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 2: the House of Lords. But the idea was that they 265 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 2: would dig tunnels from that basement into the House of Lords. 266 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 2: But I think their plan was foiled by the flooding 267 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 2: of the Thames, which predictably totally jack things up. 268 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, and thwarted their efforts. So they said, not 269 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: to be discouraged. Let's go to our backup plan, Plan 270 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: B for backup. And while they were working on this plan, 271 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 1: Thomas Winter's boss, a fellow named Lord mont Eagle, who 272 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier in the episode, he tipped off, according 273 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: to the story, a fellow named Robert Cecil, who was 274 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: the Earl of Salisbury at the time. 275 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 2: Salisbury. Yes, like the state, like the steak. 276 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,679 Speaker 1: I love how both of us immediately went to that association. 277 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 2: Well, that's that was the good lunch day in school 278 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 2: for me. It was Salisbury's state day. 279 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: You were a rectangle pizza guy. 280 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 2: I did like rectangle pizza too. 281 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 1: I thought like rectangle pizza was solid. 282 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 2: A slight interjection here, Ben, This guy Cecil was also 283 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 2: a hugely important figure and Elizabeth their court and one 284 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 2: of the targets of that revolt we mentioned earlier Essex's 285 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 2: revolt that our boy cats be helped orchestrate. So they 286 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 2: had beef previous to this, and they knew of each other, 287 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 2: and that's going to come into play in a really cool, 288 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 2: interesting way. 289 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: And now we enter into the realm of full on conspiracy. 290 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: We can go a couple of different directions with this. 291 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 2: Let's go all of the directions. 292 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: Let's go all of the directions at once, like a Wonkavator, 293 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: right exactly, So, someone in the know, someone with advanced 294 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: knowledge of the gunpowder plot, sent the letter with that 295 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 1: cartoonishly long sentence we read at the top of the 296 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: show to Lord mont Eagle, advising him, as you could hear, 297 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 1: to avoid the ceremony in the House of the Lords 298 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 1: that day. 299 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 2: And that's because he was a Catholic, and it was 300 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,880 Speaker 2: somebody involved in the plot that wanted to protect him 301 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 2: from being to hell. And there are historical perspective that 302 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 2: say several of the conspirators sent letters to various other 303 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 2: Catholics that would have been present, potentially to warn them 304 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:14,160 Speaker 2: not to go right. 305 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: And there's an excellent article on BBC. There's actually a 306 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: lot of research into this idea, but there's an excellent 307 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 1: article in BBC by Adam Donald called was guy Fox 308 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 1: a wait for it, no fall guy? 309 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 2: Huh? All right, Well I liked it. Wait, I don't 310 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 2: think I get it A. 311 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 1: Guy Fox of fall Guys? 312 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:37,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, I got it, I got it. More like a 313 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 2: fall Guido. There we go. Yes, there we go. 314 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: So the official course of events is that mont Eagle 315 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: sends the letter to Cecil the Earl of Salisbury, and 316 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: Salisbury is the one who makes the call to search 317 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:55,959 Speaker 1: the Palace of Westminster, wherein guy Fox is discovered alone 318 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: in the cellars, surrounded by barrels of gunpowder. Talk about 319 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: being red handed. 320 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 2: And not only that, he had a slow burning fuse 321 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 2: on him. You know, picture any traditional fuse that you 322 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 2: would attach to dynamie that you can light and so 323 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 2: it burns slow enough for you to get the hell 324 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 2: out of there. He had one of those on him. 325 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 2: He also had a clock on him, a pocket watch 326 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 2: that Catsbury had given him so that they could synchronize 327 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 2: the timeline of it all, so that he could set 328 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 2: the fuse ablaze at just the right moment. 329 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: Right, because just like the joker in the Christopher Nolan 330 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 1: Batman thing, it's about sending a message, right, It's true. 331 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 1: And so Fox is caught, he is tortured, and he 332 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: stands up pretty well under this horrific torture, and torture 333 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,400 Speaker 1: was actually illegal in the United Kingdom at the time, 334 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 1: but James made a special concession. It's to me, you know, 335 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 1: that sort of calls into question the idea of legality 336 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: if you can just like make an exception for this one, right, 337 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 1: you know, this one guy that really. 338 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 2: Really has it coming. So he signs a confession ultimately 339 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 2: after giving up his co conspirators, and you can find 340 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 2: this confession online and it's like you can tell that 341 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 2: whoever signed it did not have full use of their hand, 342 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 2: so he probably either had fingers removed or smashed with 343 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 2: you know, who knows what horrible things they would have done. 344 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it may indeed have been so traumatized that he 345 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: didn't understand the full text of what he was signing. 346 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 1: But he did sign it, Guido. But he did sign 347 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: it Guido. The other conspirators fled or perished in a 348 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 1: skirmish with the Crown. Those that were remaining, and most 349 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: famously Guy or Guido Fox, were sentenced to being hanged, 350 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: drawn and quartered. But here is where the historical narrative 351 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: begins to come into some conflict points, because you see 352 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: friends and neighbors that there are stories that will tell 353 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: you that the official narrative was a little more sanitized 354 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: than the actual events. And there are some that will 355 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 1: go so far as to say that Cecil was planning 356 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 1: a false flag attack. 357 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, that he actually blackmailed Catsby to set this whole 358 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:18,439 Speaker 2: operation in motion, all the while monitoring everything. He even, 359 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,919 Speaker 2: you know, supposedly, according to some versions of the story, 360 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 2: set kind of a honey trap in this space that 361 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 2: they were able to lease that just happened to be 362 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 2: right underneath the House of Lords. That he was responsible 363 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 2: for that, and that it was all in the name 364 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 2: of this like false flag campaign to further demonize Catholics 365 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 2: and make them out to be these utter looney tune 366 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 2: zealot extremists. 367 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, the idea being that he was his day 368 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: and age's version of a marketing genius, because it would 369 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: have more impact. The argument goes on the Protestant public 370 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 1: and on the government if the Catholic extremists were not 371 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: just caught talking in a tavern about doing this, but 372 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: if they were caught red handed at virtually the moment 373 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: before disaster struck. So the idea here is that we 374 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: the espionage apparatus that Cecil has constructed, the idea being 375 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 1: that we would wait and let things play out and 376 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: let the conspirators believe that they're working in secrecy. Allowing 377 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 1: them to plot until the last minute, so that the 378 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: people of England would understand just how very very very 379 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 1: very close they came to losing the king. Except that 380 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: probably isn't true either. 381 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 2: Cecil's biographer, a woman named Pauline Croft, had this to 382 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 2: say about the likelihood of that particular version of events 383 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 2: in the inflamed atmosphere after November sixteen oh five, with 384 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 2: wild accusations and counter accusations being traded by religious polemicists, 385 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 2: there were allegations that Cecil himself had devised the gunpowder 386 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 2: plot to elevate his own importance in the eyes of 387 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,879 Speaker 2: the king and to facilitate a further attack on the Jesuits. 388 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 2: Numerous subsequent efforts to substantiate these conspiracy theories have all 389 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 2: failed abysmally. But there is no doubt that Cecil again, 390 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 2: he'd been in this since Elizabeth. He had been very 391 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 2: close member of her court and continued to wield significant power. 392 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 2: I mean, he's the one who, after all called for 393 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 2: the Parliament to be searched. You know, whether that was 394 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 2: just a clever subterfuge or but you know, he definitely 395 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 2: wielded control. He had goons that he could deploy right. 396 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,199 Speaker 2: But what ended up happening with Guy Fox? He was 397 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 2: sentenced to being drawn and quartered. But yeah, which means 398 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 2: having your guts pulled out in front of you, after 399 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 2: being hanged almost to death. They take you down, they 400 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 2: pull out your guts, and they cut off your testicles, 401 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 2: this pretty grizzly stuff, and they drag you. 402 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:57,879 Speaker 1: They don't walk you to the gallows. They drag you 403 00:24:57,920 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: to the gallows via horse. 404 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 2: And then they split your carcass into four pieces and 405 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 2: send them to the four corners of the kingdom as 406 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 2: a warning to all those who would dare you defy 407 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 2: the order of the crown. 408 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 1: And Guy Fox knew this was a possibility. He knew, 409 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: and so he went out on his own terms. 410 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 2: What do you do know? He took a dive, man, 411 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 2: He took a swan dive from the gallows and broke 412 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 2: his own neck. 413 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 1: He broke his own neck. Rather than submitting to the 414 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 1: lengthy degradations of being drawn and quartered, he went for 415 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: a quicker death, arguably a cleaner one, I would say. 416 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 1: And I like the point about Cecil's biographer, because even 417 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: today you will see historians disagreeing about this or arguing 418 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: different perspectives. For instance, in the book The Gunpowder Plot, 419 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 1: Terror and Faith in sixteen oh five, author Antonia Frasier 420 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: argues that there's not just evidence that the whole thing 421 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 1: was some kind of deeper conspiracy than the history books say, 422 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 1: but she also argues that the letter itself, the famous 423 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: warning letter, was fake, and that both mont Eagle and 424 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: Cecil knew it was fake. She also says that mont 425 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 1: Eagle may have even written the letter himself. In her opinion, 426 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: this is a quote nothing else makes sense of Salisbury's 427 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: extraordinary urbanity. One might even call it complacency. In the 428 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 1: day's following. There was certainly no sense of the impending 429 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 1: danger in his conduct, such as might have been expected 430 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: if the letter had presented him with a genuine mystery. 431 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 1: So this this is strange. But as a counterpoint to this, again, 432 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: this was not the Earl's first rodeo, absolutely not, and 433 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,360 Speaker 1: just a quick aside. Lord mont Eagle was the friend 434 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,880 Speaker 1: and brother in law of conspirator Francis Tresham, and he 435 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: was worried that you know, his pal and you know 436 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: brother in law would be blown up in this attempt, 437 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 1: and so he supposedly sent him that letter but I 438 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,160 Speaker 1: see what you're saying, Ben. I mean, there's a lot 439 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: of a lot of loose ends in this story to 440 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: this day. And you know, the strange thing is when 441 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: the rubber hits the road at the bottom line. Whatever 442 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,919 Speaker 1: the aims of the gunpowder plot, as it would be 443 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 1: perceived by the public, it did end up making things 444 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: worse for Catholics in England absolutely. 445 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 2: I mean, Guy Fox became this symbol of treason, and 446 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 2: they declared a national holiday, I guess Guy Fox Day 447 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 2: or Guy fowx Night or Bonfire Night where children would 448 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,479 Speaker 2: sell these little effigies of Guy Fox. They'd say a penny, 449 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 2: what is it? A penny for the guy, penny for 450 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 2: the guy. That's it. They'd have these little wheelbarrows and 451 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 2: go around and then people would set them on fire. 452 00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 2: So this guy bore the brunt historically for this whole thing. 453 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 2: It turns out he was a bit more of a 454 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 2: side guy just happened to be the one caught with 455 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 2: his pants down his match out. 456 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:09,880 Speaker 1: There are other lines of thought you will hear from 457 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:15,199 Speaker 1: people arguing both for this conspiracy and for this conspiracy 458 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: theory rather and against it. One of the common arguments 459 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 1: for the involvement of the crown was that only the 460 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,880 Speaker 1: state possessed gunpowder, but according to scholars, that is a 461 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: myth and nonsense, with the argument the rebuttal being that 462 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,119 Speaker 1: almost every gentleman in the early seventeenth century in that 463 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: part of the world would have had a stock of gunpowder. 464 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 2: We probably should have talked about this upfront, and we 465 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 2: mentioned guy's backstory, but he actually was a Protestant by 466 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 2: birth and didn't convert to Catholicism until he was a teen. 467 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 2: And I think it's so interesting how, you know, you 468 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 2: think of Catholicism as like sort of the first form 469 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 2: of Christianity in a lot of ways, but how over time, 470 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 2: because of the decisions and the sort of whim of 471 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 2: Henry the Eighth, it created this huge divide and had 472 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 2: you know, people at each other's throats simply because of 473 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 2: the religion that they practiced. And obviously as tale as 474 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 2: old as time and. 475 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 1: Right, when we think of Catholicism in Europe at the time, 476 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: if not in England, it's functioning as a state power. 477 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: You know, it's an inarguable authority in many parts of 478 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 1: the region. Fox was not just anti Protestantism. There there's 479 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 1: also a component of anti Scottish sentiment because, as it 480 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 1: turned out, he was fiercely anti Scottish. He believed that 481 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 1: there was a natural hostility between the English and the 482 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: Scots that would make it impossible to reconcile the two 483 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: nations for any sustainable length of time. That comes from 484 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: the Gunpowder plot in History Today by an author named 485 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: Pauline croft Man. 486 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 2: It turns out that Fox was kind of a tough 487 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 2: bastard too. I mean, he went two days, i think, 488 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 2: being the only person in custody tied to this plot, 489 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 2: and you know, went through the tortures of the damned 490 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 2: to quote clockwork orange, and he said the reason he 491 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 2: participated in this plan and the whole purpose was to 492 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 2: quote blow you Scotch beggars back to your native mountains. 493 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 2: So there's definitely some anti Scottish sentiment there. But King 494 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 2: James the First reportedly kind of liked the cut of 495 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 2: his jib in a way because he, you know, he 496 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 2: said he had a quote Roman resolution, and so despite 497 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 2: you know, sending him to the most horrible Hellish and 498 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 2: you could possibly imagine he respected the guy a little bit. 499 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, grudgingly, and that that Roman resolution was was quite 500 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: possibly a Catholic name drop or reference point. 501 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 2: Ben. 502 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: So now we are in a situation where you can 503 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 1: still hear historians, biographers and other scholars argue about the 504 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 1: nature of essentially a deep state, right or the existence 505 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,720 Speaker 1: rather of a deep state in England at the time. 506 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: Regardless of where you fall in this conversation, one thing 507 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 1: is for sure for actual facts. Sure a phrase we 508 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 1: stole from our fellow Pyecaster Louren Voclbam, and that fact 509 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: is this guy Fox was not the leader. Guy Fox 510 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 1: was the fellow who got caught with the gunpowder. He 511 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: was the man who endured torture for two days without 512 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: rolling over on his co conspirators. But he was not 513 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: the mastermind that he is so often portrayed as being 514 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: in modern recounts of the story. 515 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, but he does have a place in history as 516 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 2: this symbol of revolution, and that is the role that 517 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 2: that mask en v for Vendetta plays. That is the 518 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 2: role that that mask plays in the occupy movement, and 519 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 2: anonymous in any use of that image is very much 520 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 2: tied to some form of fighting back against something perceived 521 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 2: as being fascist or a regime that does not value 522 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 2: individual liberties, and that is trying to crush you under 523 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 2: their you know, giant thumb or boot right. 524 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: This symbolic legacy or dynasty continues on today and this 525 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 1: might be interesting to you as well. Guy Fox. The 526 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 1: name guy enters the English lexicon as the noun guy, 527 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 1: like I saw a guy or this guy, or you 528 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: know you're in you're in a seven to eleven somewhere 529 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: and you say, ah my guy, let me get a slushy. 530 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: I think that's cool because I love calling people guy. 531 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. Guy. And after all this went down and Guy 532 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 2: Fox Day or Guy Fox Nighter, Bonfire Night became a 533 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 2: thing in England. It was a sort of a celebration 534 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 2: of the physical demo eyes of this human and the 535 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 2: foiling of that gunpowder plot and like you said, furthered 536 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 2: anti Catholic sentiment. But today it's still a thing, but 537 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 2: it's almost more like kind of a mini Halloween where 538 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 2: the kids go around doing the penny for a guy, 539 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 2: and it's almost like a form of trick or treating, 540 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 2: and instead of burning effigies of Guy Fox, they'll burn 541 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 2: effigies of like celebrities or politicians. So it's almost taken 542 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 2: a spin where it was originally kind of this celebration 543 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 2: of the state. Now he's sort of become this icon 544 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 2: of standing up to the state. 545 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: Absolutely, there's been some transformation over the centuries since, and 546 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: there's some sympathy nowadays for Guy Fox in Britain. There's 547 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 1: a fantastic quote we found from Lady Antonia. She's repeating 548 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 1: this joke about the British attitude toward Guy Fox. Guy Fox, 549 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: they say, is the only man and who got into 550 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 1: Parliament with the right intentions, which I think. 551 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 2: Is pretty harsh. I get it. I like it. It's chuckleworthy. 552 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:08,439 Speaker 2: That's good. 553 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: So this is our look at the strange transformation of 554 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:20,280 Speaker 1: the Gunpowder plot and it's associated symbolic meaning across history, 555 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 1: as well as our examination of the controversy that rages 556 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 1: like a conflagration or a bonfire even today. We hope 557 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: you enjoyed this. Man, we got so close. Well, at 558 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 1: least we have a chance to reduce ourselves. It's time, gentlemen, 559 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickly the Quist, you've broken again. 560 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 2: You've broken my spirit. 561 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 3: I I you know, I feel good about that because 562 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 3: the last time you kind of broke me, and I 563 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 3: think turned about fair play. 564 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 2: I think that's true, and you know what, I hope, 565 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 2: I hope we can turn about this whole thing where 566 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,879 Speaker 2: we can finally get back on top of your brutal games. Yes. 567 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:08,880 Speaker 3: Well, of course, for those who do not know, let 568 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,720 Speaker 3: us explain why I'm here. 569 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: Yes, as the only emotionally unbroken person on the show 570 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 1: right now, it falls to me to explain. 571 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 2: We're tough as nails, man, we are. I'll just drink 572 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 2: my theraflu. 573 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 1: This is the part your evil theraflu. Don't think we forgot. Oh, 574 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,799 Speaker 1: come on, this is as we were saying, the part 575 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,720 Speaker 1: where this is as we were saying, the part where 576 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:39,360 Speaker 1: you the quizter, come to NOL and I and present 577 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:43,839 Speaker 1: to us a scenario which we must deem either true or. 578 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,839 Speaker 2: False, all the while employing your supervillain powers of low 579 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 2: grade irritation. 580 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, it's it's not exactly world shattering, but it 581 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 3: certainly can. 582 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:59,720 Speaker 1: Ruin your day, and we have we will upon hearing 583 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:04,160 Speaker 1: the scenario. Yes, have three minutes on this gigantic Grandfather clock, 584 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 1: which we. 585 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 3: Moved in from one sterio into the new. 586 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: Studio a lot less cramped now, and you also go 587 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 1: into Knowl's earlier point about low grade powers of annoyance. Yes, 588 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: impose an arbitrary rule on both. 589 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 2: Of us for the duration of the quiz. 590 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 3: This is true, all right. I think we've I think 591 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,759 Speaker 3: we've all caught up now, if I'm not mistaken. You 592 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:31,280 Speaker 3: were previously talking about an attempted regicide with a mister 593 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 3: Guy FOWX correct. 594 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:33,800 Speaker 2: Correct, Yes, that's correct. 595 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:40,280 Speaker 3: Well, today's scenario we'll take on a different attempted regicide. 596 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 3: In fact, it was one that happened on May fifteenth, 597 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 3: eighteen hundred, and we'll have the club start after I 598 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 3: give you the full scenario. It's a long one again. 599 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 3: That's that's what I do, all right. A would be 600 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:58,479 Speaker 3: assassin named James Hadfield on May fifteenth, eighteen hundred, took 601 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 3: aim and fired a pistol at King George the Third 602 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,319 Speaker 3: as he attended a theatrical presentation of She Would and 603 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 3: She Would Not. This happened before the play was to begin, 604 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 3: and the orchestra was fittingly playing God Save the King. 605 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 3: Hadfields shot entirely missed. 606 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 2: He was seized. 607 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 1: He was charged with treason. 608 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,360 Speaker 3: He pled not guilty by reason of insanity. His lawyer 609 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:30,720 Speaker 3: was so good that the judge stopped the trial because 610 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 3: he was worried he'd have to actually a quit Hadfield, 611 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 3: and the English government hastily wrote new laws regarding how 612 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 3: the criminally insane were to be handled. Oh and by 613 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 3: the way, on May fifteen, eighteen hundred, this was actually 614 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:47,800 Speaker 3: the second failed assassination attempt on King George the Third. 615 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,799 Speaker 3: On that very day someone had earlier taken a shot 616 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 3: at him as he was reviewing soldiers in Hyde Park. Now, 617 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 3: before you begin the clock, if you wish to ask 618 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:02,360 Speaker 3: a question me, you must first by saying, quister, God 619 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:03,360 Speaker 3: Save the King? 620 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 2: Begin Now, I know, God Save the Queen? Is there 621 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 2: also a God Save the King? Are they interchangeable? Quistor 622 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:15,879 Speaker 2: God Save the King? Yes? What's your question? God Save 623 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 2: the Queen and God Save the King? And are they 624 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 2: two different pieces of music? 625 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,239 Speaker 3: No, it's the same music. I was what I said. 626 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,239 Speaker 3: They're not interchangeable. It's well, I depended upon whether it's 627 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:25,879 Speaker 3: a king or queen on the throne, but they are 628 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 3: the same piece of use. 629 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 1: Okay, quist God Saved the King? Yes, Master Bolin, could 630 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 1: you give us a much briefer summary of the scenario. 631 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 2: We do this every time. 632 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 3: May fifteenth, eighteen hundred, King George the third, recently surviving 633 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 3: a failed assassination attempt, as in within hours in Hyde 634 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:47,720 Speaker 3: Park goes to at tend to Play, where a person 635 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 3: named James Hadfield fires a shot from a pistol. It misses. 636 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,240 Speaker 3: The King. Hadfield is seized. He has put on trial 637 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 3: for treason, and because his lawyer is so darn good, 638 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,840 Speaker 3: he almost is a wit for reasons of insanity, except 639 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,359 Speaker 3: the judge stops the trial early so that they can 640 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,640 Speaker 3: figure out how the heck can we not allow someone 641 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:09,120 Speaker 3: who just tried to kill the king? 642 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,760 Speaker 1: Go? Oh, I I flying blind. 643 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 2: I'm really flying blind. And my psyche is so broken 644 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,680 Speaker 2: from these repeated you know, humiliations, that degradation. I just 645 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 2: don't know which way is up anymore. I'm starting to like. 646 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:24,400 Speaker 2: The only thing I can do is think, would he 647 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 2: really give us another false one right after the Hedgehog one? 648 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 2: You know that? 649 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 1: But he studied methodology of test giving. He means nothing 650 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:36,560 Speaker 1: if not clever. 651 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,239 Speaker 3: You wonder if the iokane powder is in my cup 652 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,160 Speaker 3: or your cup? Did I put them in both cups? 653 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 2: All right? Ted Cruz? 654 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:50,360 Speaker 1: So, so I would say that some of the circumstances, 655 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:55,760 Speaker 1: the fact that or the perceived fact that two assassinations 656 00:39:56,040 --> 00:40:00,359 Speaker 1: occurred on the same day. Is meant to be If 657 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 1: it is false, it is meant to be a thing 658 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,800 Speaker 1: that sounds so unreasonable. It must be true, right right, 659 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 1: But if it is indeed a true thing, then it's 660 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:14,799 Speaker 1: easy to call it false. One thing that's getting me, 661 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,919 Speaker 1: know is the idea of a quitting attempted regicide. 662 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't think that would happen. I mean, you 663 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:25,760 Speaker 2: know they drew and quartered our boy guy Fox quiz 664 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:27,719 Speaker 2: to I'm sorry, God save the king. What year did 665 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 2: this happen again? Eighteen eighteen hundred? I think this is false. 666 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:36,439 Speaker 1: I am tempted to go with false. Two. Let's let's 667 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 1: agree to sol draw on though. If we get this wrong, 668 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:41,440 Speaker 1: we're down to twenty seconds. You want to lock it in. 669 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:42,840 Speaker 1: I think we got to lock it in a false? 670 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:49,400 Speaker 1: All right, we're locking it in false, you poor poor fools. 671 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 1: I win again. 672 00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:54,879 Speaker 2: First, we're cutting this segment. This is absolutely true. 673 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,279 Speaker 1: I could tell by the way you were smirking, by 674 00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:58,919 Speaker 1: the way. So how is so good? 675 00:40:58,960 --> 00:40:59,080 Speaker 2: So? 676 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,440 Speaker 1: How insane did Hadfield have to be? 677 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:03,359 Speaker 3: This is an excellent question. Would you like to have 678 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,800 Speaker 3: some more details about this? Because it really is fascinating. 679 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:06,719 Speaker 2: No, it is fascinating. 680 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 1: So in a few years. 681 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,480 Speaker 3: Prior to this, in the seventeen nineties, Hadfield served in 682 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,840 Speaker 3: the British Army and he went to war against France. 683 00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:18,680 Speaker 3: Not just Hadfield, there was a lot of guys with him. 684 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 3: But while he was in a battle, he was struck 685 00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 3: in the head repeatedly by a saber, at least eight times. 686 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 3: People suggest that this is perhaps what caused him to 687 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 3: go a little as the experts say, cuckoo for cocoa puffs. 688 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:33,440 Speaker 1: I knew you were going to say, How did I 689 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:34,400 Speaker 1: know you was going to say that. 690 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:38,879 Speaker 3: He returned to England and met another fellow named this 691 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:43,400 Speaker 3: is a real name, Banister Truelock love It, who was 692 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 3: also absolutely bonkers and believed that the Second Coming of 693 00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 3: Christ would come through Banister true Lock through his mouth. 694 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,640 Speaker 3: Actually he would spring forth from his mouth like a 695 00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:55,400 Speaker 3: Greek god. 696 00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,400 Speaker 2: So the lawyer was able to blame his insanity on 697 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:00,520 Speaker 2: his service. In the first places are. 698 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:05,880 Speaker 3: Less so it gets even more complicated. Truelock convinced Hadfield 699 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,520 Speaker 3: that killing King George the Third would bring about peace 700 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,280 Speaker 3: on earth in the second Coming of Christ. Hadfield agrees 701 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:15,560 Speaker 3: to do this he received as his barrister a fellow 702 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:21,560 Speaker 3: named Thomas Erskine, who was the most famous and decorated 703 00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,760 Speaker 3: lawyer in all of England at that time, the Darrow 704 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:28,200 Speaker 3: of his day exactly, and he was able to argue 705 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,840 Speaker 3: very persuasively that Hadfield was in fact insane, and that 706 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,719 Speaker 3: the definitions that the British court had been using to 707 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,759 Speaker 3: define insanity up to that point were not adequate, and 708 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:43,560 Speaker 3: the judge, fearing that this argument was so sound, stop 709 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:49,319 Speaker 3: the trial. Early Parliament passed the Criminal Lunatics Act in response, 710 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,480 Speaker 3: because what had happened was was that they realized if 711 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:58,560 Speaker 3: they released him, he would be released into the general populary, 712 00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:00,640 Speaker 3: into his family. His family would take care of him, 713 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:02,680 Speaker 3: which means that he could go and do whatever else. 714 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,520 Speaker 3: And so instead the Criminal Lunatics Act of eighteen hundred 715 00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:10,800 Speaker 3: said that the government could hold the criminally insane indefinitely. 716 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,520 Speaker 3: They could commit them indefinitely to an institution. He went 717 00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:17,200 Speaker 3: to Bedlam. He did escape, briefly, made it all the 718 00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:19,960 Speaker 3: way to Dover in an attempt to escape back to France, 719 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:22,680 Speaker 3: where he was caught and returned to Bedlam. He died 720 00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,719 Speaker 3: in eighteen forty one of tuberculosis, and in fact, King 721 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:31,240 Speaker 3: George the Third had survived a previous failed assassination attempt 722 00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,040 Speaker 3: where someone shot at him they hit a person standing 723 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:36,400 Speaker 3: next to him. He decided to go ahead and go 724 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:40,680 Speaker 3: to the theater anyway, and even better, demanded that the 725 00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:44,280 Speaker 3: play continue after the failed assassination attempts. 726 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:46,720 Speaker 2: See what screwed me up? Was like, the most famous 727 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:50,880 Speaker 2: assassination attempt in the theater, to my mind, is Lincoln. 728 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,640 Speaker 2: So I thought you were capitalizing on that that maybe 729 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:55,840 Speaker 2: we would think. I don't know. 730 00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:57,799 Speaker 1: Quiztir God, save the king. 731 00:43:57,880 --> 00:43:58,440 Speaker 2: It's over, man. 732 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:00,720 Speaker 1: You don't have to say anything. I'm digging it. Actually, 733 00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:06,040 Speaker 1: that's the first one I've been actually digging. Two questions. First, 734 00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:11,040 Speaker 1: have the laws not changed since then? And? If so? 735 00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,600 Speaker 1: My second question, how have you evaded capture for so long? 736 00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:16,920 Speaker 2: Excellent question? 737 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:21,040 Speaker 3: Both accounts the laws have somewhat changed since eighteen hundred, Well, 738 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,919 Speaker 3: I would hope. Secondly, I'm not a citizen of the UK, 739 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,560 Speaker 3: nor do I reside there so they can chase me 740 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:27,040 Speaker 3: all they like. 741 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:29,440 Speaker 2: That. Was it a saber that led to your madness? 742 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:30,560 Speaker 2: Or was it maybe a hammer? 743 00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,840 Speaker 3: Was it a Phineas Gauge situation? Actually a lightsaber. It 744 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,920 Speaker 3: was not a Disney thing. And there's a small child 745 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:41,560 Speaker 3: with a red Kylo Wrinn saber. 746 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:42,520 Speaker 2: It was vicious. 747 00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,120 Speaker 1: All right, Well you know what, I see him in 748 00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:49,720 Speaker 1: my nightmares. Well played, Quizster once again, Well played. Once again, 749 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:54,200 Speaker 1: Nol and Casey and I are off to contact Interpool 750 00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:56,480 Speaker 1: about you, just to see what's what. 751 00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,720 Speaker 3: Is that like a like a an organization that allows 752 00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:01,720 Speaker 3: you to go from one pool to another pool? 753 00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:04,919 Speaker 1: Interpool, you know what, keep it up and here's hoping 754 00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:11,279 Speaker 1: you find out. Well, Pardyon my please, Well, friends and neighbors, 755 00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 1: thank you so much for tuning into today's episode. We 756 00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:20,040 Speaker 1: hope you enjoyed it. And I've gotta say, Nol, I 757 00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:24,920 Speaker 1: actually really enjoyed learning about that quist segment at the end. 758 00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:27,640 Speaker 2: It sort of took the staying out of the humiliating defeat. 759 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:29,000 Speaker 2: So thank you for that. 760 00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:33,200 Speaker 1: Four to two all right, yeah, we know the score, buddy. 761 00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,880 Speaker 2: Well, hey, listen, you guys can write us your fan 762 00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,640 Speaker 2: and or hate mail regarding the Quistor segment to Ridiculous 763 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:42,400 Speaker 2: at HowStuffWorks dot com. You can also send us a 764 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,000 Speaker 2: note on Facebook, where we are Ridiculous History, or on 765 00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:49,359 Speaker 2: Instagram Ridiculous History and Twitter, and please join us next 766 00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:51,719 Speaker 2: time where we're going to talk about a subject that 767 00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,799 Speaker 2: I'm hoping to employ with our pal the quister here, 768 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:59,040 Speaker 2: which is arsenic, the dream poison of assassins. 769 00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:02,960 Speaker 1: The inheritance powder, yes, my favorite nickname. 770 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:03,520 Speaker 2: For it so far. 771 00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,080 Speaker 1: And of course, where would we be without our super producer, 772 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:11,120 Speaker 1: Casey Pegrim, who true story Folks, has to this day 773 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,759 Speaker 1: not been convicted of regicide. We'd also like to thank 774 00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:18,960 Speaker 1: Candice Gibson who wrote the excellent article available on HowStuffWorks 775 00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:22,959 Speaker 1: dot com regarding Guy Fox and the gunpowder plot. 776 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,160 Speaker 2: And most importantly, we'd like to thank you for hanging 777 00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:26,960 Speaker 2: out with us and we hope you'll join us next 778 00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,000 Speaker 2: time where we can talk about poisoning our loved ones. 779 00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:43,440 Speaker 2: See you then. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the 780 00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,680 Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 781 00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:47,480 Speaker 2: favorite shows.