Speaker 1: Unpacking the Toolbox is a production of Shondaland Audio in
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Speaker 2: The scans shown as it.
Speaker 3: Katie those, we have an incredible episode for you today.
Speaker 3: Not only will we be graced by the Danny Bukatinski
Speaker 3: or as I call him, Danny Buka as we break
Speaker 3: down this episode, but later on we get a little
Speaker 3: bit more info from Scott Foley about what it was
Speaker 3: like to be command or when he actually became command.
Speaker 3: In this episode, we have to talk about James from
Speaker 3: beginning middle end, we have to talk about the brilliant
Speaker 3: Danny Bukatin grace us with his presence today. We're so lucky.
Speaker 3: We have been waiting to have you on this podcast. Yes,
Speaker 3: I do waiting, cherishing, waiting. But then also everyone needs
Speaker 3: to know that Danny Buca and I share the same birthday.
Speaker 1: You guys do every year, No wonder, you're both nuts,
Speaker 1: it's every year.
Speaker 4: We're both nuts. We're both nuts, but we like connected
Speaker 4: over our birthday, like on day one and now every year,
Speaker 4: you know, we hang out.
Speaker 3: It's why we are perfect, glorious, special, smart, stunning inside
Speaker 3: and out, very sexually advanced.
Speaker 4: Now yeah, yeah, I get that a lot. I get
Speaker 4: that a lot.
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm bringing us in. Why how did you get James?
Speaker 3: Where were you in your life? How did you get
Speaker 3: it to Shaun Land? Also, you auditioned for huck.
Speaker 4: Well you just did? You just answer my question? No?
Speaker 3: But weren't you writing in Grays.
Speaker 4: No, I wasn't quite writing a graze yet. I had
Speaker 4: done episode of Grey's Anatomy a season earlier and Shonda
Speaker 4: wasn't around, and I didn't meet her for that, but
Speaker 4: I remember that Linda Lowie, the casting director, sent a
Speaker 4: scene I had done in Curby Your Enthusiasm to Shonda
Speaker 4: and she approved me to get the offer on Grey's Anatomy.
Speaker 4: Then I did Grey's Anatomy, and right around that time,
Speaker 4: my book came out. Does This Baby Make Me Look Straight?
Speaker 3: It's such a great book for anyone. It's brilliant. Does
Speaker 3: this Baby make Me Look straight? It's brilliant.
Speaker 1: No, it does not, is the answer.
Speaker 4: It does not make me look straight. I mean there's
Speaker 4: you know, that would be a stunt. There's a lot
Speaker 4: that would need to I mean, there's there'd be a
Speaker 4: lot more work than just the baby, and I've had
Speaker 4: two of them. But you know, The book chronicles my
Speaker 4: whole like journey into parenthood with my husband and adoption,
Speaker 4: and in the book, I this is going somewhere, I promise.
Speaker 4: In the book, I talk about the inspiration I got
Speaker 4: from Dan savage book The Kid, and Shonda's inspiration for
Speaker 4: her adoption of her kids was also Dan Savage as
Speaker 4: The Kid. So we wound up. I don't know how
Speaker 4: it happened, but one way or another, I wound up
Speaker 4: sending Shonda my book. She wound up blurbing on my
Speaker 4: book before it came out, and we sort of connected
Speaker 4: over the way we became parents. Around that time, I
Speaker 4: then came into I went into a casting session to
Speaker 4: read for Huck and the monologue I will never forget it.
Speaker 4: I don't know, Giermo if you remember it, but the
Speaker 4: audition monologue was so beautifully written. It was a perfect
Speaker 4: example of how quickly an actor could learn it. Yeah
Speaker 4: if if it's written well, Like how hard it is
Speaker 4: to learn lines when something is like I don't see
Speaker 4: how this connects to this, but this was like a
Speaker 4: beautiful piece of writing and one hundred percent not me.
Speaker 4: But I was like, I love this. I'm gonna I'm
Speaker 4: gonna read it anyway. So I went in there and
Speaker 4: I was like, guys, I get it. This is one
Speaker 4: hundred percent not me, but maybe it is me. Maybe
Speaker 4: it'll maybe maybe you'll change the way you think about Huck.
Speaker 4: But this is a beautiful piece of writing. So I
Speaker 4: did the monologue and they were like, you're right, it's
Speaker 4: not you. Who was in the room, Betsy, Shanda, Linda
Speaker 4: was in the room for somebody meeting with.
Speaker 3: Me too.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And then I came back to read for a
Speaker 4: recurring role as David Rosen.
Speaker 3: Oh wow, I bet you killed that.
Speaker 1: I could see you playing.
Speaker 4: I could have played, thank you. I could have played
Speaker 4: David Rosen. I mean we, Josh and I even look alike.
Speaker 4: You don't.
Speaker 3: You're so much hotter. And that was on purpose for
Speaker 3: you to hear that.
Speaker 5: Josh.
Speaker 4: Keep going, yeah, Josh, you've said it yourself, Josh, So
Speaker 4: we're not saying anything that you haven't said yourself. But
Speaker 4: I saw Josh, and I've known Josh for a very
Speaker 4: long time, and we saw each other at the audition,
Speaker 4: and I went in for that one, and I think
Speaker 4: even in the room, Shanda said, I'm going to write
Speaker 4: something else for you, And I left and I was like,
Speaker 4: you know, if I had a nickel, I didn't quite you.
Speaker 3: Know, it was very nice as you're so beating down.
Speaker 3: It's like until I'm on set right and even still
Speaker 3: and I see it.
Speaker 4: Even believe it.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Correct, You're on set and you're like, they're gonna fire.
Speaker 3: Me any and it's getting come.
Speaker 4: You shoot it and then they call saying like you're
Speaker 4: being recast in there reshooting. They don't care how much
Speaker 4: money it costs. They can't allow what you just did
Speaker 4: to appear on television.
Speaker 1: They cut. Sometimes they cut the scene and you're like,
Speaker 1: my whole family, I'm on a show and I'm cut.
Speaker 1: Is that?
Speaker 3: That was my first job ever that happened to me
Speaker 3: and I my whole town, including my ex boyfriend who
Speaker 3: hurt my heart and I and then I got through it.
Speaker 3: I was like, oh my god, I wasn't in it,
Speaker 3: and I've never been so mortified in my life and
Speaker 3: never learned.
Speaker 1: But sand Sean, so Shonda thought, I love this, homo.
Speaker 1: I'm going to write a big old gay roll for him.
Speaker 4: You know, I didn't hear that part of it, but
Speaker 4: clearly you speak Sean. That was going on that head
Speaker 4: easily I love this homo. He wrote this book about adoption.
Speaker 4: I mean, listen, not for nothing. To some degree the
Speaker 4: creation of who James was going to be and who
Speaker 4: he wound up as this writer who wants to adopt
Speaker 4: a baby, Like a lot of me, I think went
Speaker 4: into who James became. But I had no idea that
Speaker 4: that was coming down the pike. And in fact, I
Speaker 4: was at my office. You know, I had a production
Speaker 4: company with Lisa Kudron for fifteen years. We were like
Speaker 4: in this office, back and forth, and there was one
Speaker 4: day we were taking all these meetings and I get
Speaker 4: a text on my phone from Linda Lowe saying will
Speaker 4: you play my husband's husband? And I was like, and
Speaker 4: I was like, is that some kind of party game?
Speaker 4: Like what what does that even mean? Will you play
Speaker 4: my husband's husband? I knew I know Jeff, and I
Speaker 4: knew Linda and Don and I had been in Mexico
Speaker 4: with them when our daughter was a year old, Like
Speaker 4: we knew each other, but will you play my husband's husband?
Speaker 4: And I was like, I don't know what that means,
Speaker 4: but sure? And so I got offered this part of
Speaker 4: James and I did this episode that I found it
Speaker 4: was in season one, and I found it so and
Speaker 4: I talk about this all the time, talk about subversive
Speaker 4: television making What made Scandal so unbelievably innovative in the time.
Speaker 4: At the time that had happened was that Olivia Pope
Speaker 4: knocks on the front door of Cyrus Bean's house, which
Speaker 4: we've never seen before, and James opens the door and says, really,
Speaker 4: Olivia on a Sunday, you know, the like, like the
Speaker 4: audience has to catch up to the fact that existed
Speaker 4: way before they started watching this show, that this man
Speaker 4: lives with this man and they're a couple and they're married,
Speaker 4: and Olivia knows it, and.
Speaker 3: He is President's chief of staff and a Republican presidency
Speaker 3: and this guy is in no way shape form what
Speaker 3: you would have ever thought of, like, oh yeah.
Speaker 4: Jeff Perry, Harry gets offered that part and is never
Speaker 4: told that this is going to be a gay character.
Speaker 4: There's never told that you're going to have a husband.
Speaker 4: Le's he's just as shocked as all of us. But
Speaker 4: the fact that there was no coming out episode, the
Speaker 4: fact that it wasn't about telling Tony telling Fits one
Speaker 4: day that he is gay, like all of it is
Speaker 4: a fact, a matter of fact that the audience just
Speaker 4: has to catch up is the way it should be.
Speaker 4: And it was so exciting and so that was just
Speaker 4: a thrill, and I thought I would just do that
Speaker 4: one episode and it would be what it would be.
Speaker 3: And I wound up doing you have to Kiss Jeff
Speaker 3: in that episode. I'm trying to remember.
Speaker 4: No, no, I just said, baby, I want a baby,
Speaker 4: a fat one. That's why I said to him, I
Speaker 4: want a baby, a big, fat one. So knock it
Speaker 4: off with all the whatever you're doing.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, you know we have to talk about like, Okay,
Speaker 3: so you get it offered, but it's kind of like
Speaker 3: an offer that you've auditioned for so many times in
Speaker 3: a way, right, because you had read two other parts
Speaker 3: and she already knew you personally, she read your book, and.
Speaker 4: I was playing somebody not far from who I am, right.
Speaker 3: Okay, so that's your first episode. Now tell me about
Speaker 3: because we've almost had you on for this episode, but
Speaker 3: we were saving you for now. But you are a
Speaker 3: part of one of my favorite all time scandal scenes ever,
Speaker 3: which I think you must have been so shocked to
Speaker 3: know what James was going to turn into. But that
Speaker 3: one act play of you and Jeff Perry taking off
Speaker 3: both of your clothes and being ass naked to make
Speaker 3: sure that you're not miked when he admits to you,
Speaker 3: I stole the election because you know something's up. I
Speaker 3: mean that what I think it's one of the best.
Speaker 3: I think it's one of the best television scenes in
Speaker 3: his I mean it's like a fucking play.
Speaker 4: It's it was a mini in the app Yeah.
Speaker 3: And it's in season It was amazing.
Speaker 4: Is it in two? Oh?
Speaker 3: It's in season two?
Speaker 4: In season two?
Speaker 3: So when do you start to realize the role that
Speaker 3: James is becoming and the amount of like unbelievable gift
Speaker 3: of line scenes like when are you like pan? Are
Speaker 3: you excited? Are you making out with Jeff? Are you
Speaker 3: liking it? He's been your friend for twenty years?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 4: So, I had done season one and then I took
Speaker 4: my friends were running Gray's Anatomy, and they said, will
Speaker 4: you come and consult as a writer because I've been
Speaker 4: a writer for a long time, will you consult as
Speaker 4: a writer in the writer's room of Gray's Anatomy? And
Speaker 4: I took a meeting with Betsy and Shonda and my
Speaker 4: two friends Tony and Joan, who are still my best friends,
Speaker 4: and I was like, look, this would be an amazing opportunity.
Speaker 4: I'm really flattered and I would love to but I've
Speaker 4: really enjoyed the three episodes I got to do on Scandal,
Speaker 4: and if there's any I'm not suggesting that he's coming back,
Speaker 4: but if there's any chance that James would come back
Speaker 4: in season two, I wouldn't want the fact that I'm writer,
Speaker 4: I'm writing in the writer's room of Grays to stop
Speaker 4: me from being on Scandal. And they said, don't worry
Speaker 4: about it. Well, nowhere to find you nice. In other words,
Speaker 4: if you're at the writer's room at Grays, we can
Speaker 4: write you onto Scandal and you can just bounce back
Speaker 4: and forth, which is what I did for the next
Speaker 4: two years. In the next two seasons.
Speaker 3: Exhausting.
Speaker 4: It was. It was exhausting and made my head spin
Speaker 4: a little bit. But I say that only because in
Speaker 4: season two, pretty quickly James comes back and James starts
Speaker 4: to like get a writing gig again, and the adoption
Speaker 4: of the baby becomes a story for them, and I
Speaker 4: go visit my mom in New York. She lives in Brooklyn,
Speaker 4: and I realized and we all remember this. Season two
Speaker 4: is when the viewership of that show went berserk and
Speaker 4: suddenly I was like people on the street were recognizing
Speaker 4: me from having only done four episodes or five. In
Speaker 4: season two was when it felt like, oh, this, this
Speaker 4: is something that could be more or bigger or more
Speaker 4: layered and more. And the truth is, season two, I
Speaker 4: was so lucky to get to play a journalist, a
Speaker 4: dad wanting to adopt a baby, the love of Cyrus's life.
Speaker 1: You know, you spy as well on the show.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was the end of season two that James
Speaker 4: was poking the bear a little bit. Yeah, but for
Speaker 4: the first half of the season, it was all about parenthood.
Speaker 4: It was all about like, I don't know what you're
Speaker 4: doing at work, but I am happy to be a dad.
Speaker 4: And then he was like, I'm getting bored and I
Speaker 4: want to start writing again. And then there was a
Speaker 4: lot of interesting conflict to be played with Jeff when
Speaker 4: I was trying to throw my hat back in the
Speaker 4: ring into the world of journalism. And you know, it
Speaker 4: played out, our little piece of the show played out
Speaker 4: like a very realistic, oddly but crazy marriage and.
Speaker 3: It's just like you and Don right, just like you.
Speaker 4: Oh, I can talk about this more later, but there's
Speaker 4: so much that I found baffling about how much we
Speaker 4: connected to people as like the heart, like the place
Speaker 4: where the love and family and marriage existed in the show.
Speaker 3: Yeah you guys, they wrote, you have such a love
Speaker 3: even though he is a monster, and you just said it.
Speaker 4: You said it. But the key to this show, I'm
Speaker 4: telling you, Like I figured it out recently when I
Speaker 4: had to rewatch these episodes for today, I was like,
Speaker 4: this show is crazy. I had forgotten this is this show.
Speaker 1: Is it's crazy.
Speaker 4: It's so good. Writing is so good.
Speaker 2: You can't you couldn't.
Speaker 4: You know, people a say like, you can't write that shit,
Speaker 4: but they did. Like every character is so complicated, and
Speaker 4: you know what trumps all of the malice and evil
Speaker 4: and and backstabbing and politicking and all of the torture
Speaker 4: love any character that loved another character, Like it's unbelievable.
Speaker 4: The fact that Cyrus loved James as much as he
Speaker 4: did even though he's killed He tried to kill him
Speaker 4: in the end of season two, and then James is
Speaker 4: like that motherfucker, I am married to a monster and
Speaker 4: I'm gonna bring him down, and then I'm like, but
Speaker 4: I love him, right, but I love him. I'm gonna
Speaker 4: forgive him because I love him. We have a baby
Speaker 4: together and we have a family him. And he's like, Honey,
Speaker 4: I love you so much. I love you. I'm like,
Speaker 4: you love me so much, You're like going to I'm
Speaker 4: gonna wind him dead because you love me so much.
Speaker 4: But the love is unbelievable. There's a scene in the
Speaker 4: episode right before three thirteen where David Rosen winds up
Speaker 4: in the trunk of a car and he's calling Darby's character,
Speaker 4: what's her name?
Speaker 3: Abby?
Speaker 4: Abby? Abby? And he's like, Abby, I didn't say it before,
Speaker 4: but I'm now in the trunk of a car and
Speaker 4: I don't know what's going to happen to me, but
Speaker 4: I just want to tell you I love you. I
Speaker 4: just want to tell you I love you. I should
Speaker 4: have said it yesterday, but I'm going to just say
Speaker 4: it now. And the trunk opens and you and Abby
Speaker 4: are standing there too, write Gherma, were you there? Or
Speaker 4: was he? I think it's I don't remember, I don't
Speaker 4: remember you rescue him. I almost started crying. I literally
Speaker 4: I found it so touching. I found it so touching.
Speaker 4: I'm like, he's just been like almost abducted and there's
Speaker 4: abby to rescue him. And it's really the love that
Speaker 4: like it's crazy.
Speaker 3: It's a romantic show at the end of h it's
Speaker 3: so it's so you know, it's just like Liver Die
Speaker 3: Like it's either it's so tweeter where it's like you
Speaker 3: either want to fuck them or punch them right, It's like,
Speaker 3: honey pee they ride that line all the time. How
Speaker 3: is it working with Jeff, who you'd been friends with
Speaker 3: forever to try to like be I mean, do you
Speaker 3: think the love came out so well because you guys
Speaker 3: had such a long relationship or like, yeah, I just
Speaker 3: buy it, man, I bought it.
Speaker 4: I love Jeff, I love Jeff beforehand. I love Jeff.
Speaker 4: But I mean we had the opposite of a romantic relationship.
Speaker 4: I mean, he's a straight man for his entire life
Speaker 4: and I'm not. And we were friends and we had
Speaker 4: to do you know, we had to go there with
Speaker 4: each other in a way that was at first very awkward,
Speaker 4: and yet we both just gave ourselves over to it.
Speaker 4: And I trusted him with and still do to this day.
Speaker 4: I trust him with my life, and we love each
Speaker 4: other so much, Like I just saw him to nights
Speaker 4: ago and I was like, we just love each other.
Speaker 4: We love each other like we I can't explain it.
Speaker 4: We've been through something together now. That said, there was
Speaker 4: the sexual nature of our relationship and the ways that
Speaker 4: Shanda and those writers pushed the envelope on what you
Speaker 4: can show on ABC was not easy. It was not easy,
Speaker 4: I will say that, like having my head pushed data
Speaker 4: frame and and I remember having an argument with Tony Goldwin,
Speaker 4: who was directing an episode, and they were they wanted
Speaker 4: to simulate my going down on Jeff And I was like, Tony,
Speaker 4: why is it always me? Like why do I always
Speaker 4: this is so?
Speaker 1: Why the bottom?
Speaker 4: Why do I have to I don't remember an episode
Speaker 4: where he's blown me, so like why can we? And
Speaker 4: then and I said, it just feels and I have
Speaker 4: to be honest with you, like I had this total
Speaker 4: window into what women must have experienced in our business
Speaker 4: for like five decades. There was there was a little
Speaker 4: bit of like embarrassment and my own internalized homophobia around
Speaker 4: the crew about the ways in which I had to
Speaker 4: sort of play that role in his life because I
Speaker 4: was his younger, incredibly hot husband, and yes, and Tony said,
Speaker 4: and and Tony said, do you think that I haven't
Speaker 4: had to throw myself. I'm a married man with two
Speaker 4: with two daughters, and I had to throw myself on
Speaker 4: the on the desk of the Oval office with Kerry Washington.
Speaker 4: And I said, uh.
Speaker 1: Huh yeah, all right, motherfucker.
Speaker 4: I was like, yes, yes, you did. You did have
Speaker 4: to do that. And therefore, of course, I mean, it's
Speaker 4: all for the art, and of course I love Jeff
Speaker 4: and but I'm just saying, like, couldn't our relationship be
Speaker 4: depicted in a more equal way? And He's like, that's
Speaker 4: not the kind of relationship this is. Anyway, we had
Speaker 4: that out on set and I wound up doing what
Speaker 4: I had to do.
Speaker 3: And it and then you've been out of frame. I'm
Speaker 3: gonna I did.
Speaker 4: What was on the page because I my job as
Speaker 4: an actor is too is to do what's on the page.
Speaker 4: We'll be right back.
Speaker 3: Guys, when you did the naked scene, were you both
Speaker 3: in like banana hammocks. I'm sorry, I have to know.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, we were so anxious about that scene.
Speaker 4: We had eleven days. I begged at at the table read.
Speaker 4: I had a nervous breakdown when I read that in
Speaker 4: because you know, we only read what we were gonna
Speaker 4: do at the table reads. There was no prep and
Speaker 4: I begged them, I said, can we schedule this scene
Speaker 4: for the last day of the so I have eleven
Speaker 4: days to lose thirty pounds. I mean, oh my god,
Speaker 4: I need eleven days to do pushups and set ups
Speaker 4: so I can look like Brad Pitt by the time
Speaker 4: they take off my shirt. And I starved myself for
Speaker 4: eleven days, and then I realized at the end of
Speaker 4: eleven days that I don't look like Brad Pitt eleven days,
Speaker 4: twenty two days, or in three hundred and sixty five days,
Speaker 4: I looked very much like the version of myself. And
Speaker 4: Jeff's like, I'm not even gonna bother. Okay, so I'm
Speaker 4: having whatever I want. I'm not even going to bother.
Speaker 1: I remember Jeff working out, though I remember him going
Speaker 1: to the gym and working out during that time.
Speaker 4: They wanted to shoot very specifically. They wanted to make
Speaker 4: sure that the only thing that blocked our nudity were
Speaker 4: objects in the room lamp a lamp. So they said,
Speaker 4: they said to us, you can wear a dance belt
Speaker 4: or a jock strap, or a or a what do
Speaker 4: they call them a so so it's called a sock,
Speaker 4: a cock sock. And so we had all of them.
Speaker 4: We had all of them, and so we all of
Speaker 4: the time. Oh yeah, I wore a turtleneck. I tried.
Speaker 4: I tried to get away with I was like talking about,
Speaker 4: you know, how to get away with murder. I was
Speaker 4: trying to get away with wearing. I was wearing more
Speaker 4: clothes than I've ever worn in my life. And I
Speaker 4: would peel it off and peel it off, and peel
Speaker 4: it off and peel it off, and then we do
Speaker 4: a take. And then Verica came in and he was like,
Speaker 4: we see the edge of the dance spelt. And I
Speaker 4: was like, so I took.
Speaker 1: Off the dance belt and now something now dance dance spelt.
Speaker 4: So gay. I was like, by the way, the minute
Speaker 4: I was in a dance belt, I was like doing
Speaker 4: the opening number.
Speaker 3: Of dancing and choreography.
Speaker 4: Thank you. And then eventually we were wearing nothing but socks.
Speaker 4: And I will say in one of the takes, and
Speaker 4: we did it so many times. I had to dress
Speaker 4: and undress so many times and then they came off.
Speaker 4: They came off. They just came off, and there we were.
Speaker 3: You're just standing there acting with your dog out.
Speaker 4: I was a Jeff's came off and I just trained
Speaker 4: my brain.
Speaker 1: On his looking that.
Speaker 4: Yes, you would have that's why you're Hawk. And I'm
Speaker 4: listening to James.
Speaker 1: Here's the thing. I've had to wear a cocks out
Speaker 1: two on the show, and I had the whole hawk
Speaker 1: getting waterboarded thing, and then I'm naked, and but then
Speaker 1: after a while, like you said, it just falls off,
Speaker 1: so I remember. But it's so freaking annoying. It's just
Speaker 1: so freaking annoyed.
Speaker 3: Like just did you guys did you feel and g
Speaker 3: too as you as a gay man?
Speaker 4: Like what nothing? She's you mean?
Speaker 1: Don't buck around? Stop fucking around.
Speaker 3: You've played gay characters before, and Danny, I don't know
Speaker 3: before Scandal how many gay characters you had played on television,
Speaker 3: But did you feel like a responsibility as being a
Speaker 3: part of a show that was reaching millions of viewers?
Speaker 3: Like what kind of pressure did you feel, you know,
Speaker 3: in portraying a gay character? Had you done it before?
Speaker 3: Like how did that feel? Because I mean the show
Speaker 3: broke a lot of buges. I feel like we've talked
Speaker 3: with Carrie a lot on this show about, like, you know,
Speaker 3: her being the first black lead, you know, woman on
Speaker 3: a network drama in thirty seven years, and feeling like
Speaker 3: this has to succeed because if it doesn't, no one
Speaker 3: else will ever get a shot, you know. So what
Speaker 3: kind of pressure were you thinking like that? Or we're
Speaker 3: like nope, just do your lines, do your job, Like
Speaker 3: what was that?
Speaker 4: Like? I was I had played gay characters before, and
Speaker 4: I had done an HBO show that I helped produce
Speaker 4: called The Comeback, where I was playing Alisa Kudro's characters
Speaker 4: publicists and who was obviously gay, and she was like,
Speaker 4: I gotta get a gay Jimmy. And you know, I
Speaker 4: had played gay characters before, and I was very used
Speaker 4: to playing what I used to call igh insert gay here.
Speaker 4: You'd read a pilot and they'd be like the token
Speaker 4: gay character, and I'd read for those for a decade.
Speaker 4: I have to be honest. And then of course when
Speaker 4: I did Gray's Anatomy, I was playing the gay husband
Speaker 4: of somebody in a hospital bed. And because it was
Speaker 4: shondaland it was always handled with like complete matter of
Speaker 4: fact complete respect. So it wasn't as much on my
Speaker 4: mind as was the fact that something happened to me
Speaker 4: when I was doing when I was on Scandal, something
Speaker 4: that tied together everything that had happened in my life
Speaker 4: prior I think that I had been. When I first
Speaker 4: came to Hollywood, I was very closeted. I was twenty seven,
Speaker 4: and I was trying to get roles, and I was
Speaker 4: pretty tending to be a straight actor pretending to be
Speaker 4: the character I was reading for, So there was always
Speaker 4: layers in front of me of and so I wasn't
Speaker 4: really working in the way that I wanted to be,
Speaker 4: and no surprise, and by the time I was ten
Speaker 4: years into my marriage and having a baby and writing
Speaker 4: a book about it and like completely letting myself be
Speaker 4: one thousand percent honest in the world and then allowed
Speaker 4: to play that on television. Something came over me when
Speaker 4: I got to play those scenes with Jeff that felt
Speaker 4: like I can't even explain it to you. There were
Speaker 4: moments where things that had happened to me as an
Speaker 4: actor that had rarely happened to me before. I felt
Speaker 4: unbelievably honest and like whatever comes out of me is okay,
Speaker 4: and there's no self consciousness here, and I'm in a
Speaker 4: real marriage, and like, this is my husband, and I
Speaker 4: can be as vulnerable with him as anybody would be
Speaker 4: with their husband. And I found enormous liberation in that.
Speaker 4: And then the scene would come. I was so lucky
Speaker 4: because even if I was in like tiny scenes, and
Speaker 4: you know, I was a guest star for twenty nine episodes,
Speaker 4: so I guess did on all those scenes, but they
Speaker 4: always wrote me something that felt honest for who I was.
Speaker 4: So as time went on, I felt like, Oh, this
Speaker 4: is an unbelievable opportunity to just be one hundred percent
Speaker 4: this guy who happens to be gay but he's also
Speaker 4: a million other things. And I thought that was very
Speaker 4: modern for that day. We hadn't really seen that before
Speaker 4: on TV.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but think about also, like the millions of people
Speaker 1: that were watching the show who were you know, homophobic
Speaker 1: or in closet or whatever, and are seeing it portrayed
Speaker 1: in this beautiful, like matter of fact way, Like how
Speaker 1: freeing for those people, and how you know, how wonderful
Speaker 1: for them to see us just as a regular person,
Speaker 1: because unfortunately, you know, a lot of freaking dumbasses out
Speaker 1: there don't see it that way. But yeah, so that
Speaker 1: even the pilot, you guys remember the pilot, the lead
Speaker 1: guest star was a gay character. Oh. It was so
Speaker 1: beautiful and he comes out, you know sort of he's
Speaker 1: just you know, by the end of the episode, he's
Speaker 1: I'm a gay man, and it's just it was I
Speaker 1: remember reading that and just being like so moved and
Speaker 1: so happy that you know that that the show was
Speaker 1: going to be that type of show, that that's how
Speaker 1: you know they were going to portray gay characters.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was because on TV for a long time,
Speaker 4: the only description of a character who was gay was
Speaker 4: that they were gay. In other words, you know, write
Speaker 4: a scene and then describe the character by their age
Speaker 4: and the fact that they're gay, you know what the
Speaker 4: gays are like.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was going to say. The other thing about
Speaker 3: it is that like the they to see Cyrus and
Speaker 3: James Novak, like neither of them are like you know
Speaker 3: what I grew up with thinking, you know, in my town,
Speaker 3: like a gay guy's like a musical theater gig, right,
Speaker 3: like like you know, like we're going together to get
Speaker 3: our nails done and then we're singing rent or like whatever,
Speaker 3: which is like all also wonderful, but to just see
Speaker 3: like Cyrus being and James who's a guy, and then
Speaker 3: Cyrus who's mean and like really scary and like not
Speaker 3: femi at all, if that's even the terms. Just see
Speaker 3: like you know, not that type of gay eye, right.
Speaker 4: It can look like this. And I'll tell you something
Speaker 4: what started to happen that was blew my mind to
Speaker 4: this day. And Guermo, I mean, no, Hawk was not
Speaker 4: a gay character. But I'm telling you that what really
Speaker 4: blew my mind is that the audience for Scandal, you
Speaker 4: all know what I mean, is like it crossed so
Speaker 4: many demographics. The black audience that came to supported us
Speaker 4: in the millions, and the black women who for whatever
Speaker 4: reason related to James and my love for that baby Ella.
Speaker 4: I believe that something happened. Something happened because I there
Speaker 4: was suddenly a moment where in the public and the
Speaker 4: and the numbers of people, women and men. But but
Speaker 4: how many people from from that particular community that that
Speaker 4: had such an enormous love and understanding for James. And
Speaker 4: I was like, God, I wonder like this is I mean,
Speaker 4: some of them are are in Southern communities and are
Speaker 4: come from religious backgrounds to where and I think that
Speaker 4: it normalized what the love that a man can have
Speaker 4: for their baby, regardless of their gender, regardless of their sexuality,
Speaker 4: regardless of their race, that crossed all these boundaries, because
Speaker 4: I'm telling you, my particular fan base was like all
Speaker 4: of these women, tons and tons and tons of black women,
Speaker 4: And to this day, like I that's the number one
Speaker 4: demo that stops me in the street and we get
Speaker 4: into conversations and we talk about the show, and they're like,
Speaker 4: oh my god, you and that baby, and you know,
Speaker 4: like we have we had like a kinship and to
Speaker 4: be able to let parenthood and love and marriage be
Speaker 4: the things that connect us rather than our race or
Speaker 4: sexuality solely, I think it was a huge gift that
Speaker 4: I did not predict. I did not predict that, and
Speaker 4: and then I thought like, oh, I have a responsibility
Speaker 4: to just be like a loving parent who and by
Speaker 4: the way, at the end of the day, I think
Speaker 4: the only character up until season four who was not
Speaker 4: a murderer somewhere in their soul, which.
Speaker 3: James, yeah, you were like the only moral compass like
Speaker 3: literally on the never I mean.
Speaker 4: Willing to throw my husband under the bus one hundred
Speaker 4: percent because he was a criminal, but not willing to
Speaker 4: kill him. I wasn't. There was no scenes of James
Speaker 4: trying to kill Cyrus, although I should have.
Speaker 3: We will be back with more after the break. I
Speaker 3: want to talk to you guys. We're going to break
Speaker 3: down this episode really quickly, and then I want to
Speaker 3: talk about so what we're talking about Today's episode three thirteen,
Speaker 3: which was entitled No Sun on Their Horizon and aired
Speaker 3: on March thirteenth and twenty fourteen, and it.
Speaker 1: Was written by Matt Byrne and directed by Randy zisk And.
Speaker 3: It was guest starring John Tenny as Andrew Nichols, Brian
Speaker 3: Lesher as Tom Larson, paul Aiedelstein Is, Leo Bergen.
Speaker 1: Laurence Stamil as Carlos Steele, Jennifer Payo as Vanessa Chandler,
Speaker 1: and Juliet Cho as Shelby Moss.
Speaker 3: Do you have us in front of you? Dan?
Speaker 4: Do I have what?
Speaker 3: Do you have a synopsis?
Speaker 4: If you do have it in front of me?
Speaker 3: Do you want to try reading your best scandal thinks?
Speaker 3: Or am I throwing you under the bus right now?
Speaker 4: I'll give it a try.
Speaker 3: See if you can do it and don't worry. People
Speaker 3: do really bad, so don't don't worry, and.
Speaker 1: By people me and Katie gets terrible most of the time.
Speaker 4: Oh my god. Okay, ready. When Olivia learns the truth
Speaker 4: about David Douglas's death, it sends her, David Rosen, and
Speaker 4: Jake Ballard into a tailspin trying to figure out what
Speaker 4: you do and to make matters worse. Sally Langston finally
Speaker 4: realizes that she must confess the truth on national TV
Speaker 4: during the presidential debate. Everything comes to a head when
Speaker 4: Olivia barely convinces Fish to throw the debate in order
Speaker 4: to prevent Sally from being killed. But then the loose
Speaker 4: sands are tied up when Jake pulls a gun on
Speaker 4: James and David Rosen.
Speaker 6: Amazing, mom, so good, you are warmed.
Speaker 3: Up and ready to shoot my friends.
Speaker 6: So good.
Speaker 3: That was so good. Okay, crazily enough, Like I mean,
Speaker 3: this episode is insane, Like Dan and g Any favorite
Speaker 3: highlight moments of people's acting, What were your favorite school
Speaker 3: of Kerrie Washington, greatest actors in the world, who had there,
Speaker 3: who won the scenes?
Speaker 6: I mean, listen for me.
Speaker 1: That the one of the opening scenes with Sally Langston
Speaker 1: with that crazy speech of hers where she says yum yum,
Speaker 1: crispy piggy yum yum. I mean that was, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I mean that was out of this world so good,
Speaker 1: so unhinged.
Speaker 4: Kate Burton in this episode is so crazy good because
Speaker 4: she's I mean, her character was so crazy anyway, but
Speaker 4: she's in a presidential debate and she's this this unbelievably
Speaker 4: religious born again woman who by the way, has the letter.
Speaker 4: There's so many there's so many things going on.
Speaker 3: She's unbelievable. And in this scene she's like obviously been
Speaker 3: like touched by the devil or whatever because she murdered
Speaker 3: this guy and she's totally unhinged, and Leo Bergen paid
Speaker 3: to on a private jet put her pastor to try
Speaker 3: to like, you know, exercise the demons that have sort
Speaker 3: of taken her. And then she decides. The whole episode
Speaker 3: is like she's deciding, She's like, I have to confess
Speaker 3: the American people that I'm a murderer because I've stopped
Speaker 3: hearing him, I've stopped hearing God. And if I don't
Speaker 3: confess and we're able to, but guess what if she
Speaker 3: convinces then everyone will know that Cyrus being covered it
Speaker 3: up and he's responsible and blah blah blah.
Speaker 4: They have to stop her from doing that at all costs,
Speaker 4: including the moment in this episode where Jeff as Cyrus
Speaker 4: is like he is willing to He's gonna plug that
Speaker 4: hole no matter what. He's like, we got to kill
Speaker 4: someone's got to kill Sally Langson because she's she's gonna
Speaker 4: do this. But I'll tell you something. Carrie's acting when
Speaker 4: she comes into in the beginning of the episode, Carrie's
Speaker 4: acting when she finds out when she finds out the
Speaker 4: truth that her entire team has covered up the death
Speaker 4: of Daniel Douglas, and Carrie walks into that room with
Speaker 4: with with with with Cyrus, and she's like trying to
Speaker 4: see if he was if it's true, and within one
Speaker 4: line she knows it's true, and she starts laughing.
Speaker 3: She starts laughing, unhinged, crazy, maniacal.
Speaker 4: It's so good. She's like laughing, and then she's like,
Speaker 4: I can't, I can't. I just want to walk back
Speaker 4: into the light. What has happened we have all turned into.
Speaker 4: This is not what I set out to do. It's
Speaker 4: like there's this moment from her that's so honest. She's
Speaker 4: laughing and then she's crying. It's really.
Speaker 1: Carry's pregnant here, right, She's pregnant in this episode.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Jeff Perry has an amazing scene.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he has the monologue to Jake about how the
Speaker 3: American people can't find out about Daniel Douglas. Like he's
Speaker 3: making it like it doesn't even matter that I would
Speaker 3: go to jail for the Daniels and that the people
Speaker 3: of America can't know how fucked up the leadership is
Speaker 3: because they will lose their faith in America.
Speaker 2: Like it's a great speech, it's a it's a beautifully
Speaker 2: written speech where he's like he the American people, the
Speaker 2: fabric of our country, who believe in the leaders that
Speaker 2: they voted for, cannot be.
Speaker 4: Told that we all murders. We are murder And he
Speaker 4: says like that murder, he's a rook DERs.
Speaker 3: I'm like, Jeff Perry, you actor unbelievable.
Speaker 1: But Jake, Jake Ballard also has a monologue at the
Speaker 1: top of the show which is so great where he's
Speaker 1: talking about sort of well.
Speaker 6: It's just and it's shot so beautifully too.
Speaker 4: This is the thing about this show. They humanize the
Speaker 4: demons all the time. They humanize the torturers, every single
Speaker 4: one of us, from Huck to Quinn to Jake Ballard,
Speaker 4: They're all like underneath it, all these human beings that
Speaker 4: have somewhere inside them the ability to love and his
Speaker 4: longing for family, which he does not have. Is this
Speaker 4: opening monologue, He's like, so this becomes my family, and
Speaker 4: this this becomes my purpose. And it's like this is cuckoo.
Speaker 4: It's all cuckoo, but it's what makes me love all
Speaker 4: the characters.
Speaker 3: I mean I personally we always talk about how Quinn
Speaker 3: Huck did and if we loved or hated our acting.
Speaker 3: I think Quinn nailed this episode.
Speaker 4: She did.
Speaker 3: Anytime Quinn is a receptionist, I'm like, wow, why am
Speaker 3: I good at this? And so so many other things.
Speaker 3: But for some reason, when there's a headset and she's like, hi,
Speaker 3: acne paper unlimited, I'm like, I got you, Like I
Speaker 3: did a good job, and I kind of feel like
Speaker 3: I actually remember being really intimidated because Scott Foley had
Speaker 3: been added to the show this season, but I personally
Speaker 3: hadn't had any like one on one scenes with him,
Speaker 3: and when I watched this episode, I had like PTSD
Speaker 3: coming up because I was like, it was my first
Speaker 3: time ever getting like we're just me and Scott were
Speaker 3: on set and like me and Scott alone, our chairs
Speaker 3: were next to each other, and me and Scott had
Speaker 3: these couple handful of these actme limited scenes to do,
Speaker 3: and I got to act with him, and I remember
Speaker 3: being like a little nervous because, yeah, because he's so cute,
Speaker 3: and I watched every episode of City, so I was like,
Speaker 3: oh my god, I better act so good. So maybe
Speaker 3: that's why I wasn't total shit.
Speaker 4: And I really not in this episode, but in the
Speaker 4: one right after kiss Kiss, Bang Bang, Scott and.
Speaker 3: I we have to talk about that. Can we fuck
Speaker 3: the rest of this episode? Is there anything else in
Speaker 3: the episode we need to touch on?
Speaker 4: I will say I love the scene where James is
Speaker 4: at the house and Cyrus comes and he now knows
Speaker 4: that James was Publius and James is like, broke our family,
Speaker 4: broke our family, and he said I know, I know,
Speaker 4: and he goes, I just want to tell you something.
Speaker 4: I love you. I love you so much. I love
Speaker 4: you so much, and it's like all James needs to hear,
Speaker 4: and that's.
Speaker 3: For you guys, if you don't remember Cyrus. Leo Bergen
Speaker 3: walks into Cyrus's office and he's like, I can't wait
Speaker 3: till Sally wins, and this is good. Be my fucking office, bitch,
Speaker 3: and then Cyrus is like, and then Leo's like, first
Speaker 3: thing I'm gonna do is get rid of that buzzing sound.
Speaker 3: And Cyrus is like, what buzzing sound? And then we
Speaker 3: realize there is a buzzing sound. And Cyrus opens up
Speaker 3: the family picture frame of James and Ella on his
Speaker 3: desk and opens up the picture frame and there was
Speaker 3: a mic and he had been recorded, and he knew
Speaker 3: it was James that did it, and he goes home,
Speaker 3: tells him he knows he's Publius. James is crying, you
Speaker 3: broke us, you broke our family. And then Cyrus says,
Speaker 3: I just love you. I love you so much.
Speaker 4: I love you so much. And then James goes right
Speaker 4: to go meet David Rosen and says, listen, all bets
Speaker 4: are off. My husband told me he loved me. And
Speaker 4: as it turns out, that's all I really need. I go.
Speaker 4: I really I wrote down what I said. I said.
Speaker 4: I know I need to. I know I shouldn't forgive him.
Speaker 4: I have no business forgiving him, but I love him.
Speaker 4: So it's I'm sorry that you called. I'm sorry that
Speaker 4: you called this meeting, but I'm gonna have to just bail.
Speaker 4: And he's like, I didn't call this. Zoom zoom, zoom,
Speaker 4: And then there's this moment bang guns.
Speaker 3: And then it's too late, and then you both realize,
Speaker 3: oh my god, we both didn't call this meeting. Fucking
Speaker 3: Jake Ballard did And at the exact moment, two bullets
Speaker 3: go ripping past the two of you and murder the
Speaker 3: two reporters that you were meeting to sell the info to.
Speaker 3: And the episode ends with the gun on you, and
Speaker 3: we don't know.
Speaker 4: Who I know, yes, except that the gun no no
Speaker 4: is The episode ends over black with one last shot,
Speaker 4: so you do know that at least David or James
Speaker 4: has been shot. And when we read that in the
Speaker 4: table read, it was the most shocking thing anybody had
Speaker 4: ever I mean we were like, what and then and
Speaker 4: then Josh.
Speaker 3: And did you know at this point.
Speaker 4: No, no, I had no idea that was coming down
Speaker 4: the pike. I had no idea. And Josh starts screaming,
Speaker 4: you gotta kill James. He already won an Emmy and
Speaker 4: I and I'm like, that has nothing to do with it.
Speaker 4: Oh shit, Yeah, I'd already won, So which is you
Speaker 4: know you should? If I hadn't, I would still be
Speaker 4: hond Would you give me emmy back?
Speaker 6: If they would have kept you on the show for
Speaker 6: all eight seeds?
Speaker 4: Yes, I get asked all the time. I'll be honest
Speaker 4: with you. I'm not. I'm not ungrateful, by the way.
Speaker 4: I'm not ungrateful. I'm very happy to have been honored.
Speaker 4: But I got to tell you something. If if the
Speaker 4: exchange would have been to stay on for another three
Speaker 4: or four seasons and not have won, I would have
Speaker 4: happily done that. I would have happily done that. Ugh.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't act for trophies, you guys.
Speaker 3: I do, and I've never got anither.
Speaker 4: But when you get them when you're not expecting them,
Speaker 4: well you're not expecting one. I had a nervous breakdown
Speaker 4: that day. I mean, that was a crazy, crazy day
Speaker 4: at the table read where the gun goes off and
Speaker 4: we don't know whether it's Josh or me. The entire
Speaker 4: shooting of that episode which is three thirteen, the one
Speaker 4: we're talking about right now. While we were shooting three thirteen,
Speaker 4: I did not yet know which one of us in
Speaker 4: three fourteen was gonna was gonna die. And so I
Speaker 4: called Shanda and I was like, listen, I beg of
Speaker 4: you as soon as you know, will you please let
Speaker 4: us know? And they're like, yeah, we're just now listen.
Speaker 4: In hindsight, I can't imagine that that room did not
Speaker 4: know that this is where this was headed. But I
Speaker 4: remember getting a phone call in January of twenty fourteen.
Speaker 4: I'll never forget it. I pulled off the side of
Speaker 4: the road. I was in my car, so I get
Speaker 4: a phone call. You know, Dan, can you hold for Shonda?
Speaker 4: And I was like, oh my god. My hands started shaking.
Speaker 4: I pull off the side of the road and Shawonda's like, Danny,
Speaker 4: we couldn't think of any other way around it, but
Speaker 4: it's you. And I was like, oh my god, oh
Speaker 4: my god. I said listen, but Shanda, can I ask
Speaker 4: you a question?
Speaker 6: You already?
Speaker 4: I mean, they hadn't readen the episode yet. They I
Speaker 4: was pitching. I was pitching, I go, does do you
Speaker 4: have to see James's body? Actually in the episode, I go,
Speaker 4: I mean, if the gun goes off, is there any
Speaker 4: way that James just disappears into the night. And then
Speaker 4: you know, in season five he appears like a like
Speaker 4: living as a caveman somewhere in some log cabin in
Speaker 4: the woods, like that would happen in Scandal, like they
Speaker 4: could never find the body of James Novak. And then
Speaker 4: I'll have me back in season five and she's like, no,
Speaker 4: but we're gonna write an incredible episode and I will
Speaker 4: let you read it before the next table read, which
Speaker 4: they did, and I wept like a baby.
Speaker 3: And this is the episode that's the flashback of you
Speaker 3: and Cyrus falling.
Speaker 6: In love, and yes, so great.
Speaker 4: Yes, I couldn't have asked for a better To be
Speaker 4: honest with you, I could not have asked for a
Speaker 4: better send off. It was traumatic to act, because lying
Speaker 4: there and breathing your last breath with cameras rolling and
Speaker 4: Scott Foley there, that was really traumatic. But but all
Speaker 4: the little flashbacks that we got to act, which was
Speaker 4: like a play in and of itself, which was the
Speaker 4: whole history of the relationship of James and and and Cyrus,
Speaker 4: was beautifully written. It was it was just great.
Speaker 1: Love and courting each other two game and courting each
Speaker 1: other on it was freaking ABC on a national television show.
Speaker 6: How freaking amazing is that I know?
Speaker 4: And how awkward Cyrus was, and how unprepared Cyrus was,
Speaker 4: and how he was neck beard to the next beard
Speaker 4: on his neck. And let me tell you something, the
Speaker 4: acting that Jeff Perry does in episode three fourteen. If
Speaker 4: you think about the range that that man had to
Speaker 4: act in three fourteen, I just want you to wrap
Speaker 4: your brain around him, not only playing the beginning flirtations
Speaker 4: flashbacks with James within that episode, but then in denial
Speaker 4: about the fact that his husband is dead and on
Speaker 4: a work mode and completely maniacal, and then his absolute
Speaker 4: collapse in front of the press corps. It was, it
Speaker 4: was to me one of the best range. Like Jeff
Speaker 4: Perry is a god. For what he had to do
Speaker 4: in three fourteen, it's unbelievable. I'm in such awe of him.
Speaker 3: Now take us through the night of the death scene.
Speaker 3: We don't have to go in long because I know
Speaker 3: it's probably very triggering, no pun intended. What when you
Speaker 3: say it was so magical? We've had you know, Jeff,
Speaker 3: I know showed up. You had to go through this
Speaker 3: thing with Scott.
Speaker 5: Fully.
Speaker 3: The death was so long and drawn out and awful,
Speaker 3: like watching someone take their last breaths home saying I
Speaker 3: know it's painful, I know it's.
Speaker 6: Horrible, but I'm sorry.
Speaker 3: The only way it's going to look like yeah that yeah,
Speaker 3: what tell me?
Speaker 4: Tell me hor They kept putting. They had to continuously
Speaker 4: put these packs of fake blood into my mouth so
Speaker 4: that I would gurgle and gasp. It was not easy,
Speaker 4: and I remember when I uttered the words ella to him,
Speaker 4: I whispered the words la to him. I could not
Speaker 4: stop crying, and so there was so much liquid on
Speaker 4: my face. I was like I was I was teared up.
Speaker 4: And Scott, who by the way, was like, I mean
Speaker 4: he was traumatized by having to play that guy. I mean,
Speaker 4: if you think that he didn't want to do it, No,
Speaker 4: we were all from the table read on. It was
Speaker 4: like really dramatic that that was going to have to happen.
Speaker 4: And it was one o'clock in the morning in Hollywood
Speaker 4: on the sidewalk. It was starting to rain. It was late,
Speaker 4: and we were doing that scene over and over and
Speaker 4: over again, and I had to like get the and
Speaker 4: and Paul mccrane was the director and he had been
Speaker 4: on Er and I love Paul. He was he was
Speaker 4: a doll and he was really telling me medically how
Speaker 4: I was supposed to get through this final gasps of
Speaker 4: breath before I died, and so I had to play
Speaker 4: that out and I did, and then we wrapped and
Speaker 4: they wheeled out a huge cake for me. And I'm
Speaker 4: gluten free and Celia, so I couldn't add a little bit.
Speaker 6: But anyway, was it red velvet? Was it red velvet?
Speaker 4: I couldn't have any of it, but there's photographs of
Speaker 4: me covered in fake blood in front of a big cake,
Speaker 4: and Jeffy came and Linda came, and it was very
Speaker 4: respectful and lovely, and honestly, I could not have asked
Speaker 4: for a better send off. I will say that the
Speaker 4: next morning, I was due to be on Access Hollywood
Speaker 4: to promote an earlier episode, and I had so much
Speaker 4: blood in my fingernails that I sat in my interview
Speaker 4: chair talking to Kit and What's in Billy Bush with
Speaker 4: my fingers curled up in my hands.
Speaker 3: Like you can't get off and it's been all day.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, you have to like it's so bad. Dyes
Speaker 3: your skin. It like dies your skin.
Speaker 4: I had. I had red, like I put makeup on
Speaker 4: and I was covering my the bloody finger stumps. And
Speaker 4: then I had to do Ellen. And when I did
Speaker 4: Ellen again, we had already shot my death episode, but
Speaker 4: what had aired so far was just James poking air.
Speaker 4: And Ellen was like, I don't this doesn't smell good
Speaker 4: for James. That's all I can tell you. Is like,
Speaker 4: I don't know what you're doing, but I don't think
Speaker 4: it's going to end well for you. And I was like, well,
Speaker 4: I don't know. You never know. Oh god, it was
Speaker 4: awkward to It was awkward for three months to do
Speaker 4: press and and and I did a lot of it
Speaker 4: and I was, you know, I couldn't talk about what
Speaker 4: was coming, but it.
Speaker 3: Was very so proud, you know, like of the work
Speaker 3: you did and the character you created and the relationship
Speaker 3: you got to be part of on television and like
Speaker 3: it's so.
Speaker 5: It was.
Speaker 4: Forgound.
Speaker 6: Character's ever going to forget him.
Speaker 4: Right, Listen. It changed my career. I made friends with
Speaker 4: people that I will never not be friends with. And
Speaker 4: by the way, the two of you, like I could
Speaker 4: not love two people more in my life, and we've
Speaker 4: never we never had one scene so true behind episodes.
Speaker 4: There wasn't even a moment of even a fantasy episode
Speaker 4: that we were in together. It was crazy. I did
Speaker 4: scenes with Mellie, and I did scenes with Tony Goldwyn
Speaker 4: and everybody and David Rosen, but nobody in nobody did we.
Speaker 3: Were we the group that went to the White House
Speaker 3: Correspondent dinner together? Yes, yes we were the group because
Speaker 3: I have a real memory of us.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes you can have the memory of Dane.
Speaker 3: Our fancies, Ritz Georgetown Hotel suite. We're on a political show,
Speaker 3: which basically means you're a beatle.
Speaker 4: You know, we were there with Danny was.
Speaker 3: Getting a pedicure by someone else. We were with, I mean,
Speaker 3: we were like having I mean, it was just you
Speaker 3: were there for such like the highest of high years
Speaker 3: of scandal. I feel like, I mean, I just feel
Speaker 3: like we were all on this major ride together and
Speaker 3: I I mean, and.
Speaker 4: I couldn't it will never be like I mean, like everything,
Speaker 4: I mean, it was exactly what it was. It was spectacular,
Speaker 4: The work was the people were amazing, the experience was great,
Speaker 4: and and uh, you know, it was a game change
Speaker 4: up for me and I and I had I will
Speaker 4: never forget it. And I'm very proud of the character
Speaker 4: I got to play. I'm proud of pushing myself to
Speaker 4: do things I never thought I could do in television,
Speaker 4: and and the relationships I made. You know, it can't
Speaker 4: be repeated. So every time we all get other jobs,
Speaker 4: it's not the sandwich chase that it will be the same.
Speaker 3: Never had such a thing, my god.
Speaker 1: And I feel like we all walked away from the
Speaker 1: show with those same things, right, just discovering so many
Speaker 1: amazing things that we were able to do on the show.
Speaker 1: I never I've never done so many freaking crazy like
Speaker 1: they asked to do so many crazy things on a show,
Speaker 1: and and just met so many amazing people. It was just, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it was an experience that will never be able
Speaker 1: to recreate, right, No, I mean it's yeah.
Speaker 4: As a writer, I'll be honest, Like, at the moment,
Speaker 4: I was so sad, I was so sad, like like,
Speaker 4: it was so traumatic. It took a very long time
Speaker 4: for me to get over having to leave this family.
Speaker 4: That's really what was the most heart wrenching thing for me.
Speaker 4: But when I had some distance from it. It was like,
Speaker 4: what a smart move. It was so like it shocked
Speaker 4: the view. It was exactly the right thing to do.
Speaker 4: I mean, they almost killed James in season two and
Speaker 4: then and then in a way, I was sort of
Speaker 4: playing out a very similar narrative and the next unless
Speaker 4: James was gonna wind up with a story of his
Speaker 4: own and become a character with a separate storyline. I
Speaker 4: was no longer in service to Cyrus in a way
Speaker 4: that was that was fresh. So killing James was an
Speaker 4: incredibly smart, bold move for TV. And you know, I
Speaker 4: kind of respect it now. I hated it, but I
Speaker 4: respect it.
Speaker 3: It's such a bit now I feel like people do it.
Speaker 3: But at the time, yeah, we all felt like we
Speaker 3: were so safe. So it was like, oh shit, like
Speaker 3: anyone could go it at a time. Yeah, let's see
Speaker 3: what we do that some tweets of the time, which Danny,
Speaker 3: you joined Twitter at this time, and I wonder what
Speaker 3: the gladiators thought of this episode at VALIDESK ninety three
Speaker 3: on March fourteen, twenty fourteen, tweeted, I think I know
Speaker 3: hashtag who got shot. Maybe he says when he when
Speaker 3: he says I love you to him, that's when he
Speaker 3: does terrible things hashtag scandal that Valentina sort of sniffed
Speaker 3: it out.
Speaker 6: Yeah, this chick at.
Speaker 1: Katie Kompass tweeted, who else has to rewind Scott Foley's
Speaker 1: Scandal scenes because of his distractingly huge eyeballs. It's like
Speaker 1: two tennis balls aiming a gun.
Speaker 3: I can't, I cannot girls see talk tweeted, Olivia started
Speaker 3: to make me mad. I wanted her to pick Jake.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, because this episode, of course, we were in
Speaker 3: a love triangle as per usual.
Speaker 1: Let's see Nikki with a tick. Nike with a tick tweeted.
Speaker 1: If I had a pound for every time a member
Speaker 1: of B six thirteen mentioned B six thirteen, I could
Speaker 1: buy BE six thirteen. Only Eli denies its existence the
Speaker 1: rest amateurs okay, I mean.
Speaker 3: And then we've got, of course, a picture at Nancy
Speaker 3: Drew Gall tweeted, I think Olivia Pope needs this wine glass?
Speaker 3: What do you think? And it's a picture of an
Speaker 3: entire bottle because Olivia be drinking a lot of one.
Speaker 3: I mean, what your Twitter experience, Dan? Were people so upset?
Speaker 3: When you do you remember people being people being mean
Speaker 3: to you on Twitter? People loving you on Twitter, people
Speaker 3: being mad that you died. What was your Twitter fan
Speaker 3: base reaction?
Speaker 4: People were devastated that James was dead. Absolutely absolutely, and
Speaker 4: my I had a very positive for the most part
Speaker 4: Twitter experience. A couple of people made fun of me
Speaker 4: because James was always crying, and that, you know, the
Speaker 4: truth is I often, I often got choked up in
Speaker 4: these scenes with Jeff, even when it wasn't called for,
Speaker 4: and so my my chin quivers when I get emotional,
Speaker 4: and so I got I got a lot of shit
Speaker 4: for that. But people loved James and and he was
Speaker 4: beloved and on Twitter, I got a lot of love
Speaker 4: and people were devastated when he died, and uh yeah,
Speaker 4: it was uh it was. It was a thing. It
Speaker 4: was a thing, but I was very grateful for it.
Speaker 6: You're the best, and.
Speaker 3: We love you so much in our hearts.
Speaker 6: I love you, we love you man, Thank you so much.
Speaker 3: Danny Bugatinski, thanks so much. We love you, we love you,
Speaker 3: we love you. And now let's hear from Scott fully
Speaker 3: again before we wrap this thing up. In three thirteen,
Speaker 3: did Sean ever say to you, you're going to be command.
Speaker 3: This is going to be You're going to be running
Speaker 3: the country.
Speaker 5: No, No, I don't think Sean had told you anything
Speaker 5: before a table read. Now you learn everything in the
Speaker 5: table read unless you're getting killed off. That was it,
Speaker 5: and I didn't. I'm not sure even now that it
Speaker 5: was like, oh, it was a huge deal. It was
Speaker 5: just I don't know part of the storyline. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 3: Do you remember when you got that scripted? Do you
Speaker 3: remember you had that monologue and you were looking forward
Speaker 3: to all about history and hope?
Speaker 5: Yes, I had to deliver that. I had no idea,
Speaker 5: absolutely no idea.
Speaker 3: We knew nothing on this show.
Speaker 5: I mean insane you as What we do is I
Speaker 5: will sit down before I play any character and I
Speaker 5: will write out this is so basic. I will write
Speaker 5: out a list of questions, Right, who is he? What's
Speaker 5: his relationship with his parents, his relationship with God? What
Speaker 5: kind of cologne does he wear? Is he a front
Speaker 5: to back wiper or back to front? All the stupid shit.
Speaker 3: The shit you really need to know to play someone.
Speaker 5: None of what I had laid out. And you have
Speaker 5: to make those choices, right, you have to have that
Speaker 5: in your head. You can so you can play any characters,
Speaker 5: so you can make those choices. But no, nothing It
Speaker 5: almost never lines up. I don't think Oh, his parents
Speaker 5: were loving Muslims and they grew up on a sailboat
Speaker 5: like that never lines up with what the Ritters do
Speaker 5: because these are different people.
Speaker 1: It just doesn't happen, right, Yo, Do you remember was
Speaker 1: Carrie pregnant during that episode?
Speaker 3: I think she was.
Speaker 6: I think she was because she's wearing a big old
Speaker 6: coat and a lot of those scenes.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think she was pregnant. And not long after
Speaker 5: she and I have a pretty intense love scene.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it goes like this. She says, take advantage
Speaker 3: of me Jake, which is hot as fuck. I think
Speaker 3: in this episode three thirteen, you come in, she comes in,
Speaker 3: She's like, I just want to pretend we're normal. I
Speaker 3: don't want to talk about that we're killers and all.
Speaker 4: This kind of thing.
Speaker 3: You're like, right, yeah, I worked at Jake's apartment.
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, I worked.
Speaker 3: At ACME Limited. Today. I sold paper, I sold two reasons.
Speaker 6: And you will drink this whole bottle of wine by myself.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're just going to make pretend all day. And
Speaker 3: then you're like, no, I don't want you to get
Speaker 3: too drunk that I take advantage of you and then
Speaker 3: she like switches in her head and she says, take
Speaker 3: advantage of me.
Speaker 4: Jake.
Speaker 5: Well, she was. She was very pregnant when we did that,
Speaker 5: and the director was like, he was like, we were
Speaker 5: rehearsing it and he was like, no, you get on
Speaker 5: top her. I was like, you can't. I can't get
Speaker 5: She's eight months pregnant. I can't do that. So he
Speaker 5: was like, well and it was put a song on.
Speaker 4: It was like.
Speaker 5: Because I get on top of her, really and I
Speaker 5: was like, you know, sir, she's pregnant. I cannot lay
Speaker 5: on top of him.
Speaker 4: Push up.
Speaker 5: Then there's then we've got hold yourself off.
Speaker 3: It won't look real.
Speaker 5: So you want to be like spoon in other ways,
Speaker 5: it's very fun.
Speaker 6: He said, do a push up. Imagine you having to
Speaker 6: hold that push up for the whole scene.
Speaker 5: Like, but there's still she was pregnant. Man.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And then the other big thing that happens in
Speaker 3: three thirteen that I have to hear about, is you
Speaker 3: Jake Ballard kills.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: We don't know who he kills in that in this episode.
Speaker 1: You assume it's him, but they don't show it. But
Speaker 1: it ends up being of course, yeah, we can you.
Speaker 5: The way my worst day ever on Scandal, And it
Speaker 5: began with the table read for that episode where we
Speaker 5: all found out. We didn't find out who it was,
Speaker 5: but it could have been Josh, and it was when
Speaker 5: we actually had to shoot it. It was Dan didn't.
Speaker 5: He wanted to keep working. He loved we loved having him.
Speaker 5: He wanted to be a part of it. He's got
Speaker 5: a family. This is his way makes a living. But
Speaker 5: you're telling a story, and he was a.
Speaker 3: Great part, like as a game man with a big part.
Speaker 3: Was it horrible to shoot? Like you have to feel
Speaker 3: so bad or you're just like, I gotta get this done,
Speaker 3: Like we got to go home, Like I can't. We
Speaker 3: can't make this personal. I just have to like my job.
Speaker 5: I remember that night. I remember how it felt. I
Speaker 5: remember the street, I remember him laying there with the blood.
Speaker 5: I remember the gun. I remember Shanda had a screenshot
Speaker 5: on her work computer of me holding the gun. I
Speaker 5: remember it all.
Speaker 3: Why that on her computer was like opposing it morbid?
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, it was like her screensaver for a while.
Speaker 3: I remember it being so hard. It was the first
Speaker 3: person on the inside Scandal family who had done a
Speaker 3: shitload of episodes, and that's when we really realized, holy shit,
Speaker 3: nobody is safe here.
Speaker 5: I got emotional when we did it. I was really tough.
Speaker 5: You understand, it's not me.
Speaker 4: I didn't.
Speaker 5: I'm not the one who made the call.
Speaker 3: And Shawna said I remember her saying, I'm the protector
Speaker 3: of the story. It's my job to like, not fall
Speaker 3: in love with people, but to really look at the
Speaker 3: show and the story that we're telling and hold it
Speaker 3: above all else, hold it above my personal feelings and
Speaker 3: people's personal feelings, which must be so hard. When you're right,
Speaker 3: it's like my family, my bills, my all like. Also,
Speaker 3: he was playing a gay role.
Speaker 5: In Shanda and Dan had worked together. Dan was a
Speaker 5: writer on Gray's Anatomy. They had they have a hand street.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I can only imagine how difficult it was for her.
Speaker 5: It was very difficult for me. I know everybody involved,
Speaker 5: we all of us had a certain amount of guilt
Speaker 5: about survivor guilt.
Speaker 6: I guess you could get yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: And it wasn't just like you Jake shoots him and
Speaker 1: he falls over and dead in two seconds. It was
Speaker 1: a slow, agonizing death. You're talking him through the death.
Speaker 1: So I could see how that was.
Speaker 6: It's super difficult.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 5: Well, you're right, I forgot about that because I shoot
Speaker 5: him and then I go down and I talk to him.
Speaker 5: It's going to be okay. I'll make sure your daughter
Speaker 5: is okay. You know all that.
Speaker 6: And you're telling what he's going to feel as he's dying.
Speaker 6: Oh my god. Yeah, it's a lot.
Speaker 5: Wow.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Scotty Foley, Thank you, Danny Buga. We love
Speaker 3: you so much. In next up, we have episode three
Speaker 3: fourteen called Kiss, Kiss, Bang Bang, where we have to
Speaker 3: really struggle through this blood curdling, gurgling.
Speaker 1: Uh So, stay tuned, you guys. The next one is
Speaker 1: three fourteen and we have a special guest.
Speaker 4: Bye.
Speaker 3: We love you.
Speaker 6: Thank you bye everybody.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you guys for joining us on Unpacking
Speaker 1: the Toolbox. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, share
Speaker 1: with your friends, rate, or leave us a review.
Speaker 3: Unpacking the Toolbox was executive produced by Sandy Bailey, Alex Alcea,
Speaker 3: Lauren Homan, Tyler Klang, and Gabrielle Collins. Our producer and
Speaker 3: editor is Vince de Johnny, with music by Chad Fisher.
Speaker 1: Scandal is a production of ABC Signature and You can
Speaker 1: follow along by rewatching Scandal on Hulu.
Speaker 3: Unpacking the Toolbox is a production of Shondaland Audio in
Speaker 3: partnership with iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit
Speaker 3: the iHeartRadio app or anywhere you subscribe to your favorite shows.