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Speaker 1: Hello, Hello, Raymond, This is m William Phelps, Matthew.

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Speaker 2: Uh, okay, yes, met you.

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Speaker 1: Okay, how you doing pretty good?

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Speaker 3: Are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm back in the back cleaning the goat.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, let me see it.

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Speaker 2: Let me let me go put this up and I'll

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Speaker 2: just I'll go ahead and talk to you.

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Speaker 4: Go ahead, okay, Well yeah, yeah, Well the real man

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Speaker 4: I'm here going about forty five.

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Speaker 1: Vincent t Jerina Junior's uncle, Raymond Tajerina, is eighty years old. Raymond, well,

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Speaker 1: yet he can recall the moment he learned his nephew

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Speaker 1: had been murdered with the vivid acuity of a man

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Speaker 1: half his age.

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Speaker 3: I used to run all the time, and competition runs

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Speaker 3: all over the state, and me and my son had

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Speaker 3: gone to run in Steaveville, which is fifty miles from here,

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Speaker 3: fifty three miles from here. We heard it on the

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Speaker 3: news that morning. After we're finished, stupid cops called it

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Speaker 3: a murdered suicide, even though they didn't find a weapon

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Speaker 3: or a stupid you know, stupid people just really get

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Speaker 3: to you, because, I mean, you know, how the hell

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Speaker 3: can I murder suicide? When you know we don't find

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Speaker 3: a weapon or nothing.

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Speaker 2: Like that. You know they were both shocked in the head.

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Speaker 1: An unsolved murder has a tendency to affect victims' families

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Speaker 1: in any number of ways. One is to force them

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Speaker 1: to think about what happened or imagine what might have happened,

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Speaker 1: over and over again. It becomes like walking out of

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Speaker 1: a film before the final scene, or running from the

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Speaker 1: altar on your wedding day. Your mind is forever trying

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Speaker 1: to finish the script and rewrite the ending. When Raymond

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Speaker 1: and his fifteen year old son were driving home and

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Speaker 1: heard the report of a murder suicide in Weatherford on

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Speaker 1: the radio, they looked at each other. Something about the

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Speaker 1: report rattled them.

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Speaker 2: We heard about it, and you know, they didn't have

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Speaker 2: any details and everything.

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Speaker 3: And I told my son, I said, let's go to Wellford.

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Speaker 3: I said, le'supp see about this stuff and stuff like that,

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Speaker 3: because they kept saying that one of them Hispanic, and

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Speaker 3: we had no idea that they didn't announce any names.

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Speaker 2: Right when I got here, I called my sister.

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Speaker 3: She had phones, so I called her and said, well

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Speaker 3: and he'd probably come up here, said Vincent sned I

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Speaker 3: wanted to talk to you about So we took off

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Speaker 3: from here and when I took to see him.

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Speaker 1: And after that call with his sister, Raymond drove straight

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Speaker 1: to Weatherford and eventually showed up at the crime scene.

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Speaker 3: It was to me it was premeditated murderer.

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Speaker 2: It was planned.

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Speaker 3: First I thought it was that they weren't the wrong

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Speaker 3: place at the wrong time, because they did a lot

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Speaker 3: of drug dealing right there in the spot. But that

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Speaker 3: wasn't so, because it couldn't have been because the reason

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Speaker 3: that it was it was ringing that night. Wynn was

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Speaker 3: born about thirty five or fifty mile an hours so

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Speaker 3: that night had been and weather for it had been

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Speaker 3: a real tremendous thunder and light and all this stuff,

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Speaker 3: so he couldn't have been in the wrong place at

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Speaker 3: the wrong time.

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Speaker 1: Raymond had actually studied criminal investigation long ago. He never

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Speaker 1: followed through, but fashioned himself as someone with investigative intuition,

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Speaker 1: and his observations on that morning, I'll say, certainly prove

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Speaker 1: as much. What was most unusual, though Raymond believes he

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Speaker 1: knows why, is that he and others were allowed to

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Speaker 1: walk into the crime scene and even look inside the

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Speaker 1: car where the kids had been found. First thing that

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Speaker 1: struck him when he studied the interior of the vehicle

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Speaker 1: were the shell cases.

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Speaker 3: He was murdered with a twenty two small colibers twenty two,

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Speaker 3: but there were hollow points and when they went in,

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Speaker 3: they went in and they'll be older and came out. Well,

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Speaker 3: they didn't come out. It was just pattered all inside

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Speaker 3: his head. It was shot twice and here was shot first.

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Speaker 3: I want to say my theory, my investigator, and Sue

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Speaker 3: was shot as Sue was trying to get away. He

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Speaker 3: was shut in the back of her head. The guy

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Speaker 3: was sitting in the back seat. He had a gun

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Speaker 3: and probably made him open the door and all this

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Speaker 3: stuff with a gun. There was a bootprint in the

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Speaker 3: back seat, real visible stuff almost major and everything now

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Speaker 3: and so I looked at it.

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Speaker 2: There was shell shell.

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Speaker 3: Cases in the car and hardly anything else. There was

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Speaker 3: a little trash, but not trashy trashy like this normal.

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Speaker 2: It was real clean. The car was real clean.

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Speaker 1: Was there blood spatter?

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Speaker 3: There was blood spatter on the driver's window. It didn't

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Speaker 3: blow the window uttering plant at it. On the window.

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Speaker 3: There was blood splatter from him on my nephew. And

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Speaker 3: then the other side had blood was not splattered it

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Speaker 3: was hit was some on the door, but mainly on.

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Speaker 2: The bottom part of the door.

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Speaker 3: She fell out when she opened the door, and they

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Speaker 3: shot her right there, and she felt allowed and hit

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Speaker 3: the i want to say, hit her head and on

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Speaker 3: the not the armrest, but further.

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Speaker 2: Down and went and hit her.

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Speaker 3: Head real hard because it'd imprint real good her head

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Speaker 3: on the mud.

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Speaker 2: Of course, a lot of blood.

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Speaker 1: Was it was described for me what you saw in

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Speaker 1: the mud.

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Speaker 3: Okay, an imprint like some uh not like a fist,

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Speaker 3: but it was a you know, you take a basketball

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Speaker 3: and just imprint the heck out of it almost like that.

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Speaker 1: It looked like a human's face.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, look it wasn't a face. It was the head,

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Speaker 3: top of the head. She felled it down into the mud.

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Speaker 1: And was there blood there too.

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Speaker 2: Yes, there was a lot of blood.

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Speaker 3: Because whoever was kidding them with, whoever was was helping

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Speaker 3: him or whatever. I'm sure he had help because they

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Speaker 3: took her back in the card and put her on

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Speaker 3: her seat, on the front seat, and then they put

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Speaker 3: him right next to her, and they put their armser

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Speaker 3: on on stuff like that. Mike, I don't know, Mike,

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Speaker 3: it look like they were therefore Mike Lovin or whatever.

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Speaker 3: You know, how can you say stuff like that that's.

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Speaker 2: What they were doing.

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Speaker 1: There are so many different versions of the moment the

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Speaker 1: kids were discovered and what happened before law enforcement arrived.

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Speaker 1: I think what we can say at this point without

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Speaker 1: question is that Vincent Senior moved the kids' bodies while

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Speaker 1: staging the scene, and in doing so, contaminated potential evidence.

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Speaker 1: The question you'd have to ask is why would he

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Speaker 1: move the bodies? Was it a moral decision which has

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Speaker 1: been suggested to me that he didn't want word to

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Speaker 1: get out that the kids were found in a compromising position,

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Speaker 1: or was he trying to hide something? And what did

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Speaker 1: Vincent Senior tell you, your brother about what he saw

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Speaker 1: when he got there?

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Speaker 3: Well, he saw, you know, next to each other and

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Speaker 3: uh arm around He had his arm around her, and

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Speaker 3: there were their heads were together, they were both the

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Speaker 3: head and he you know, he just went freaking, you know,

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Speaker 3: freaked out. And he loved to sign a lot, you know,

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Speaker 3: and his son, he had that cursain that every time

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Speaker 3: he was gonna go out and use my brother's car,

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Speaker 3: he had to be home by midnight.

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Speaker 2: And when that passed, I mean, you know, he said.

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Speaker 3: My brother said, I felt something real bad in me,

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Speaker 3: so I went to look for him.

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Speaker 1: I wondered exactly what time Vincent discovered the car. He

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Speaker 1: was out all night, driving up and down to the

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Speaker 1: top road and throughout town. By most accounts, he had

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Speaker 1: not seen the vehicle until sun up. Was the car

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Speaker 1: there throughout the night or had he just not seen

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Speaker 1: it because it was dark, Or was the car driven

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Speaker 1: up there early that morning and left out in the

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Speaker 1: open so it could be found. I've heard both theories

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Speaker 1: so far.

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Speaker 3: Really not suns hadn't come up, but there's enough daylight

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Speaker 3: so he could see the car.

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Speaker 4: He searched for.

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Speaker 3: Him all night, and when he was coming back home

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Speaker 3: there he couldn't find him.

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Speaker 2: He went to look for some help. You know, my

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Speaker 2: brother in law.

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Speaker 3: When he was coming home back, I said, he was

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Speaker 3: he saw the car like there. I mean, it was

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Speaker 3: right on the road this part on the side of

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Speaker 3: the road. There was a little bit there's a little

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Speaker 3: heel and you could see the car, or you can

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Speaker 3: see the little hill somewhere, you know, the road.

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Speaker 2: So he saw him.

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Speaker 3: He did not see him, which it was at night,

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Speaker 3: so he couldn't see the car when he when looking

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Speaker 3: for him, or he would have found him that night.

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Speaker 3: But he did, said when he was coming back, he

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Speaker 3: just went out for the car to see it was his, and.

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Speaker 1: He thought they had been dead for a while.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, they had been dead for a good while

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Speaker 3: in the hours.

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Speaker 1: Raymond makes a good point contradicting one of my original

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Speaker 1: thoughts that the car wasn't there throughout the night when

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Speaker 1: Vincent Senior was looking for them. Raymond believes Vincent Senior

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Speaker 1: would not have seen the car from the road in

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Speaker 1: the dark. Also his theory about the kids being shot

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Speaker 1: outside the vehicle, One source, if you recall, said she

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Speaker 1: saw blood on the telephone pole when she was up

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Speaker 1: there that morning. The only reason there would be blood

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Speaker 1: outside the car is if one or both had been

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Speaker 1: attacked or shot while standing or even running away. Next,

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Speaker 1: Raymond explained how Vincent Senior told him that as he

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Speaker 1: drove around, he suddenly got this strange feeling about the kids,

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Speaker 1: that something horrible had happened. He felt real bad.

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Speaker 2: Something hit him, like right in your chance or something

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Speaker 2: like that. Something hit him. And sometimes we.

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Speaker 3: Get that way, you know, we're hispanic field something like that.

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Speaker 3: You know, when something terrible like that happens, and I

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Speaker 3: don't know some kind of since tell you, I don't

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Speaker 3: know what it is, but we'll do a few things

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Speaker 3: like that.

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Speaker 2: So he felt something like that. That's when he went

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Speaker 2: to looking for him.

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Speaker 1: When Raymond first arrived at the scene, stepping out of

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Speaker 1: his vehicle, he couldn't believe what was going on within

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Speaker 1: the immediate crime scene area itself, people milling about, touching

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Speaker 1: the car, picking up what could be trace evidence off

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Speaker 1: the ground. Yet he feels he knows why.

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Speaker 3: I mean, when they they come out there, I mean

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Speaker 3: they came like dozens.

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Speaker 2: I think they were poorly mishandled. Everything was mishandled.

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Speaker 1: And the name Raymond mentions next, I've bleeped out. But

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Speaker 1: damn it all, it seems every time I turn around

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Speaker 1: and speak to someone new, the same name pops up.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if they were trying to cover up,

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Speaker 2: but what they.

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Speaker 3: Already knew what had happened, and big here police, the

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Speaker 3: city of Weatherford police were covering up for who everybody

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Speaker 3: blames because somebody said that they had seen some cop

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Speaker 3: cars there during that night. I'm going to say that

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Speaker 3: came and helped him clean.

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Speaker 2: Up the message.

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Speaker 1: Previously on Paper Ghosts.

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Speaker 5: The blood on the ground on her side. I didn't

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Speaker 5: see anything on handside when they were both shot the head.

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Speaker 5: He was shot for the second tad and I courtant mention.

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Speaker 5: Sad Out later said he drifted if.

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Speaker 6: He had that he got here all the side, but

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Speaker 6: with the amount of time that he had leased, you

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Speaker 6: almost experienced a similar thing there, right, Because their com

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Speaker 6: scene wasn't handled in nineteen eighty three the way it

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Speaker 6: would be handled today, or or even in nineteen ninety

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Speaker 6: three for that matter.

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Speaker 2: It's just just a different world. Yeah.

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Speaker 7: According to Vincent's family, he was show on the right

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Speaker 7: hand side too, because they all remember his left side

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Speaker 7: being just really messed up, the eye kind of hanging out,

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Speaker 7: so it would have been on the right temple as

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Speaker 7: well for Vincent.

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Speaker 1: My name is em William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist

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Speaker 1: in the New York Times, best selling off of dozens

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Speaker 1: of true crime books. This is season five of Paper Ghosts.

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Speaker 1: The Texas teen Murders, a recurring theme which came up

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Speaker 1: time and again as I dug deeper into this case

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Speaker 1: became the drug trade, not that the kids were doping

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Speaker 1: or were friendly with dopers, but how widespread the production

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Speaker 1: and use of methamphetamine was in Parker County at this time,

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Speaker 1: and how it could have been the genesis of the

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Speaker 1: murders during those days. Immediately after Vincent and Shelley's bodies

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Speaker 1: were discovered, Weatherford police seemed to think the same thing,

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Speaker 1: because the focus quickly went to the meth trade as

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Speaker 1: a potential motive. It's possible this is a legitimate question

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Speaker 1: law enforcement posed in their search for an explanation. What

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Speaker 1: is also possible is that throwing that drug trade element

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Speaker 1: out into the public early on would keep people from

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Speaker 1: being overly concerned about the double murder of two teens

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Speaker 1: happening in their backyard. I don't think it's any secret

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Speaker 1: that the general public feels safer when a murder is

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Speaker 1: written off as drug related, which can feel confined to

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Speaker 1: a space like another world which the average suburban family

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Speaker 1: is not a part of. It also brings race and

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Speaker 1: social status into it all, perhaps even convincing people to

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Speaker 1: care less about solving it.

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Speaker 8: I kind of like my name to stay back, you know,

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Speaker 8: still alive. I'm going to start off by telling you

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Speaker 8: that Arker County isn't Maybury.

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Speaker 9: I was born and raised there.

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Speaker 8: I wouldn't want to go to town today at sixty

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Speaker 8: three and even get pulled over in that town.

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Speaker 1: This name you just heard bleeped out, just like you

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Speaker 1: heard censored previously, has been mentioned as being connected to

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Speaker 1: the murders by at least a dozen people I have interviewed.

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Speaker 1: Many still fear accusing this man of having played a

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Speaker 1: role in the murders. Yet I have seen zero material

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Speaker 1: evidence connecting him to the murders and have to wonder

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Speaker 1: if it is a mere rumor exacerbated by the power

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Speaker 1: of social media and time, and it's vitally important to

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Speaker 1: me not to docs someone based on suggestion or the

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Speaker 1: rumor mill alone. I am going to call her Christine,

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Speaker 1: a source I connected with. She was deeply embedded in

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Speaker 1: the drug culture of Weatherford and Parker County back in

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty three. Knew most of the players and also cooked,

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Speaker 1: used and sold meth. Although I myself have been sober

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Speaker 1: from alcohol now thirty years, I understand this world and

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Speaker 1: knew many of the same types of people Christine will describe,

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Speaker 1: So I am no stranger to this crowd and how

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Speaker 1: they rip and run. With that in mind, I got

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Speaker 1: right into it with her. Did they see something they

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Speaker 1: shouldn't have seen? I mean, because they were executed, So.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, I'm gonna say that's probably what happened exactly.

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Speaker 9: I think a lot of the cops were in on it.

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Speaker 8: And you still got one comp that's there in town

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Speaker 8: that he was in on all this stuff too. Some

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Speaker 8: of the main players that I recalled that was always.

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Speaker 9: Badgering, oh there they are, or they would follow you.

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Speaker 9: Well we would, you know, we'd end up following them,

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Speaker 9: so we'd chase them.

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Speaker 10: You know.

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Speaker 9: It was sort of a can't mouse, but they wanted

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Speaker 9: to come at you.

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Speaker 1: Christine goes on to tell me that everybody believed most

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Speaker 1: law enforcement were on the take, and some even controlled

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Speaker 1: the drug trade. Then she drops a woman's name she

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Speaker 1: knew personally, whom others have also mentioned to me. This

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Speaker 1: person was always in trouble and frequently arrested for drugs.

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Speaker 1: Though it seems once she hooked up with a cop,

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Speaker 1: her life you could say, well it got a hell

302
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Speaker 1: of a lot easier.

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Speaker 8: And now I'm going to go on to tell you

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Speaker 8: some more story that whenever I would get.

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Speaker 9: Turn in jail, and that was always in there.

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Speaker 11: Well, she would screw through the balls, which was I'm

307
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Speaker 11: not sure it was title, but he was at to

308
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Speaker 11: SHARE's office then too, with screw through the bars.

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Speaker 9: I sit there and watch them. And she's been to

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Speaker 9: prison a whole bunch.

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Speaker 12: I've never been to prison. Thank God, I got some

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00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,840
Speaker 12: sense about myself. She was at my cousin's house when

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Speaker 12: my cousin died. I think she overdosed her. So I

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Speaker 12: would never say never to that one.

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Speaker 9: She was weird. She was bizarre.

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Speaker 8: I'm not saying that I wasn't, but she was the

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Speaker 8: one that maybe couldn't handle it.

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Speaker 9: Maybe she needed to quit that stuff, but she was

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Speaker 9: weird as hell.

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to get what you're saying. You're saying that

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Speaker 1: maybe she could have done something to the kids.

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Speaker 9: I think she fits in there somewhere. I've always thought that,

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Speaker 9: and that's my thought. I thought. I don't think it's

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Speaker 9: a rumor around town. That's a deal that me and

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Speaker 9: you are talking about.

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Speaker 2: It is.

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Speaker 1: Indeed, one of the many rumors I have heard. Was

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Speaker 1: it shocking around town that the two kids had been

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Speaker 1: ordered executed shot?

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Speaker 9: I don't think I was surprised, how come?

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Speaker 8: Just knowing the tyrants around town, knowing that they probably

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Speaker 8: fell into the wrong place at the wrong town.

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Speaker 9: It was a dark town. And boy, if you ever,

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Speaker 9: if you ever knew a little.

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Speaker 8: Bit, it's just a scary town. It is a lot

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Speaker 8: of us kids were hound drugs.

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Speaker 9: I think there was more. Eve Honey was cut up

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Speaker 9: and has parted out around Parker County.

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Speaker 8: I don't know if it was had anything to do

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Speaker 8: with some of the big people around there with.

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Speaker 9: Job or what.

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Speaker 1: When I hear stories like this within the context of

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Speaker 1: an unsolved double murder, I need to consider that gossip

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00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,760
Speaker 1: about this case was rampant back in the day and

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00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:00,679
Speaker 1: still is. If those statements cannot be backed up with

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Speaker 1: two or even three additional sources, they have to go

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Speaker 1: into the questionable column. Christine has every reason to dislike cops.

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Speaker 1: She was a criminal on their shit list. That's inherent bias.

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Speaker 1: So I listen and later consider whether to include or

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Speaker 1: exclude the information. All that being said, what she tells

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Speaker 1: me next is kind of remarkable.

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Speaker 8: We all used a little little dope, even the ones

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Speaker 8: you wouldn't think was using dope in town.

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Speaker 9: You know, we smoked cigarettes, smoked lids. But then when

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Speaker 9: they are caught on.

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Speaker 8: And then there was quite a few cops in town

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Speaker 8: that you would see one with a horse trailer full

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Speaker 8: of weed. And I want to tell you all these

359
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Speaker 8: people that I'm talking about, after these kids were killed,

360
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Speaker 8: it's sort of like they like disappeared.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about what you remember about that weekend March

362
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Speaker 1: twenty fifth, twenty sixth, what happens.

363
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Speaker 8: What I remember is I was kind of doing my

364
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Speaker 8: own things, staying in Fort Worth so that I would

365
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 8: stay out of Weatherford. But what happens whenever I came

366
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Speaker 8: back into town, they pulled me in for murder, and

367
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Speaker 8: then they also pulled my little brother in for murder.

368
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Speaker 1: They pulled you in from murder, for who's murder?

369
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Speaker 9: For those kids.

370
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Speaker 1: My source, Christine explains that she and her brother were

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Speaker 1: hauled in for the murders of Vincent and Shelley during

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Speaker 1: those early days after their bodies were found on Pis Hill.

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Speaker 1: I had so many questions. Number one, why her why

374
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Speaker 1: her brother? Were they just rounding up the local known

375
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Speaker 1: drug crowd and questioning them or did they have a

376
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Speaker 1: viable reason to drag them in?

377
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Speaker 9: And they questioned us.

378
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Speaker 8: I didn't get polygraphed. But whenever they asked me who

379
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Speaker 8: I thought it was. I told him it was a tyrant.

380
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Speaker 1: Back up a little bit for me. So you're living

381
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Speaker 1: outside of Weatherford and the kids are murdered, and when

382
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 1: and how does it happen? Where are you? What happens?

383
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Speaker 4: You know?

384
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 9: That would be hard for me to say.

385
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 8: I was probably hard in hell, but I'm gonna guess

386
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Speaker 8: I was probably in Fort Worth.

387
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Speaker 9: He was selling drugs, my ex husband, the piece of

388
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Speaker 9: shit that he was.

389
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Speaker 8: Anyway, we stayed more in Fort Worth so that we

390
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Speaker 8: wouldn't get in trouble because we.

391
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Speaker 9: Did know what Parker County was. And I say Parker County,

392
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Speaker 9: that's Weatherford.

393
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Speaker 8: I just remember I would come into town, but I

394
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 8: would get right back out because I knew always up

395
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 8: to no good with the use and sales of drugs.

396
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 1: How do they latch onto you for the murder of

397
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:14,880
Speaker 1: the two teenagers, Vincent and Shelley.

398
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 9: They just picked us up from the house. I think

399
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 9: I was at.

400
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 1: My mother's so they pick you up.

401
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 8: I think it was because I was a smart ass

402
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 8: in town. I just didn't tolerate them. I was respectful,

403
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 8: yet I never would give them any information. Would ask

404
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 8: you to sell his dope.

405
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 9: Or you're going to go to jail, you.

406
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 8: Know, all that type of stuff. So we had already

407
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 8: had conflict.

408
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,160
Speaker 1: I had heard the same accusation from others. If he

409
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,880
Speaker 1: wanted you to you either sold or cooked for the guy,

410
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 1: or he was up your ass all the time, and

411
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 1: you would eventually go down in a big way. And

412
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 1: how long after the murders were you pulled in?

413
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 9: It was right away.

414
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 1: So they come to your house, they handcuff you. I mean,

415
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 1: what happens?

416
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 9: They said they needed to question me. They took me

417
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:14,920
Speaker 9: down to the city for questioning.

418
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 1: What kind of questions did they ask you?

419
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,159
Speaker 9: Did you kill the kids? Do you know anything about it?

420
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 9: Top deal?

421
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 8: We heard you did it, we heard you were involved,

422
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 8: those kind of questions of it was like they were

423
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 8: trying to jam you up, admitting that you had done

424
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 8: the crime.

425
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 9: Whenever I hadn't done the crime. I wouldn't kill kids.

426
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,399
Speaker 1: What evidence did they have that they were able to

427
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 1: drag you into this?

428
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,640
Speaker 10: It was just who we were in Wetherford. I see,

429
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 10: you know, I wasn't precious by no means. I just

430
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 10: did what I wanted to do, and I didn't care

431
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 10: what somebody else thought about it.

432
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 1: How did you ultimately get out of that? When did

433
00:25:59,119 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: they let you go?

434
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 13: Well, they asked me, they let us Lada let me

435
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 13: go right away. After they questioned me and they said,

436
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 13: who do you think it is?

437
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 9: And I said it's I said, it's who it is.

438
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 1: What did they say to that?

439
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:22,120
Speaker 8: I don't remember the exact expression or reply.

440
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 9: That's been so many years ago.

441
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 8: I remember they treated you like, oh yeah type situation,

442
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 8: like yeah, oh yeah, right. I think they just was

443
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,640
Speaker 8: questioning him because they didn't know. I don't think they

444
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 8: knew who it was, okay, And to be quite honest,

445
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 8: I remember it was just something that you kind of

446
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 8: knew that it was.

447
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,679
Speaker 9: Just did I know that? To be true? No, I didn't.

448
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 1: Why would he have a motive to kill the kids?

449
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 1: What would be the motive?

450
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 9: He was selling drugs himself, He was getting the dope.

451
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:05,479
Speaker 8: And then he would get his little hon yaks, the

452
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 8: ones that were just playing users, not sellers and users.

453
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 1: When you say he was selling dope, who do you mean? Okay,

454
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: so what mode of would he have to kill the kids?

455
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 1: Because Vincent wasn't selling dope, right, I mean now, I

456
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 1: think they.

457
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:28,879
Speaker 9: Were just doing the parking I'll be kissing if I

458
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 9: was givesing. We called that his heel there where it was,

459
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,120
Speaker 9: and it was. It was in the same parking lot

460
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 9: with a school. There was an old school.

461
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 14: It was in.

462
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 1: One after the other, six seven, eight. So many people

463
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: I've spoken to paint this picture of law enforcement being

464
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 1: involved in the drug trade and the kids coming upon

465
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 1: some sort of deal, seeing something they should not have.

466
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 1: But I am still uncertain about hanging my hat on

467
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:11,400
Speaker 1: this theory. There are just too many unanswered questions and variables. Still.

468
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 1: The truth is, the Weatherford Police Department and all the

469
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,159
Speaker 1: way up to the Attorney General's Office have denied my

470
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 1: requests for any reports or witness statements from nineteen eighty three.

471
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: This substruction has forced me to talk to everyone myself

472
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,719
Speaker 1: forty plus years later. And if there's one obstacle in

473
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 1: cold case investigation you consistently face, it's that time has

474
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: a way of adding texture and heft to stories. People

475
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 1: can talk conspiracy, cover up, the cops did it all

476
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: day long, And yet I always begin with a basic

477
00:28:54,560 --> 00:29:01,719
Speaker 1: Okham's razor premise that murder is uncomplicated. The simplest answer,

478
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: the one that makes the most sense, is the answer,

479
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: and in this case, the potential is there that the

480
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: uncomplicated resolution making the most sense is that law enforcement

481
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: is corrupt and behind it all. Sometimes within a reinvestigation,

482
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: you need to ask tough questions you know will not

483
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 1: sit right with victims' families, but it is necessary if

484
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: your goal is to get at the truth for the

485
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 1: sake of argument, to say the girl was raped. Would

486
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 1: that bring up any other names for you?

487
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 2: There is?

488
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 8: I call them bump monkeys because they always just said

489
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 8: they were sort of like wimpy with the hamburger.

490
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 9: Can you front me today and I'll pay you faddy

491
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 9: tap deal.

492
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 1: That comment about bump monkeys is interesting because I have

493
00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: been told by several sources that Shelley was raped and that,

494
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 1: as you have already heard, she had scratches which I

495
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 1: have not confirmed as of yet, along the right side

496
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: of her body, as if she had been dragged through

497
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: a briar patch. So an obvious theory could be a

498
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: few bump monkeys. Dudes Jones and for a fix hanging

499
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: around piss Hill looking for dope came upon the car

500
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: as Vincent and Shelley were hanging out. They got into

501
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: it with Vincent killed him and then raped Shelley before

502
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 1: murdering her, all because they wanted dope. So there wasn't

503
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 1: like a sexual deviant in town that everybody knew about. No,

504
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 1: basically from what I'm getting from you, as you think

505
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: they saw something up at the hill they shouldn't have seen. Yeah,

506
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 1: or possibly they saw it down on North Maine while

507
00:30:55,520 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 1: they were cruising and somebody followed them.

508
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 9: I haven't thought of that theory.

509
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 8: I think they've pulled up while something was probably going on.

510
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 9: If it's had to give the situation.

511
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 14: Hey, try.

512
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 2: How are you doing.

513
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: Nice to meet you, Nice to meet your girlfriend.

514
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 14: Basically, Hi, good morning, Bessie.

515
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 1: Nice to meet you.

516
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 14: Come on and have a seat.

517
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so yeah, thanks for coming man.

518
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 14: I appreciate it, no problem. I'm glad you're getting involved.

519
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 14: She's said a lot about you.

520
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 1: With the help of mel Mitchell and Laurie Kate's I

521
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 1: met one of Shelley Colliflowers close cousins. He's an old

522
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 1: school Texan, speaks his mind, doesn't hold back, and doesn't

523
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 1: give two shits about what anybody thinks or has to

524
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: say about him.

525
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 14: My kind of guy. My name's Troy Nichelius. I'm from Dallas, Texas.

526
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 14: Shelley was my cousin.

527
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 1: Like all of Shelley's family, Troy wants to see action,

528
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 1: accountability and expects law enforcement to provide the family with

529
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: updates and answers. And they haven't done any of that

530
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: throughout forty plus years, he says. In Troy's view, they've

531
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 1: had enough people telling them that the guiding theory of

532
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: the case involves big names in town at the time,

533
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 1: and those people need to be brought in and questioned.

534
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 1: Yet nothing has been done in that regard. And where

535
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: did you grow up?

536
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 14: Troy durre in Dallas, Texa's actually Garland.

537
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: Garland, Texas. And tell me about growing up in Texas

538
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: at that at that time. What were you like as

539
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 1: a kid?

540
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 14: Troy started out in the high school with rodeo and

541
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 14: stuff like that, and graduated high school and kind of

542
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 14: went downhill a little bit and then started getting it

543
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 14: all back together and done a lot of things in life.

544
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 14: You know, got to travel to over forty eight part

545
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 14: of Canada. Oh wow, wow, I love to ride.

546
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: So oh you got a Harley, Oh yeah, So tell

547
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:42,719
Speaker 1: me a little bit about the rodeo. What was your

548
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: experience like with the rodeo.

549
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 14: Never really got any good, but we had a lot

550
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 14: of fun was doing bull riding and high school we

551
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 14: called it shoot doggings.

552
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 1: Shoot dogging.

553
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 14: They you bring them out of the shoot and go

554
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 14: so far and throw them down fastest winds.

555
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: And so tell me about the family. Big family, small family.

556
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 14: Medium sized family. Most of them lived down around Meridian, Texas, Clifton, Texas.

557
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:11,800
Speaker 1: And so how were.

558
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,400
Speaker 14: You connected with Shelley? How does that My father and

559
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 14: her mother or brother and sister kind of sort of

560
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 14: grew up together. We didn't spend a lot of time

561
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 14: with each other because they live in elsewhere, you know,

562
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 14: so holidays and summertime, trips to grandparents' house and stuff,

563
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 14: so we got to spend a little bit of time together.

564
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:36,800
Speaker 14: Shelley always got along with everybody. It was easy going,

565
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 14: a happy girl, you know. Like I said, we didn't

566
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 14: get to spend a whole lot of time together. But

567
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 14: whenever my mom and us kids would go down to

568
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 14: Meridian to see other family as well, you know, and

569
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 14: if they were there, we hung out for the day

570
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 14: or the weekend. Not much to do in that little town.

571
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: Troy sketches up familiar portrait of a family in flux,

572
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 1: a family getting together and sharing stories, but also a

573
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: family drifting apart. He has some rather bold views about

574
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 1: the murder of his cousin and has pretty much kept

575
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 1: them to himself until now. As we spoke two things,

576
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: Troy mentions send me in a new direction, even if

577
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 1: that direction rings a familiar bell. Troy got involved in

578
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 1: Shelley's case after being thrust into a rather strange situation

579
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: as he began to ask questions and poke his finger

580
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: into people's chests. Have you heard things about Weatherford?

581
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 14: Heard a lot of things about Weatherford? What have you heard?

582
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 14: Just the problems with the law, and that you know

583
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 14: covers everybody, court law whatever. As a young child, never

584
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 14: went and like I said, I kind of got messed

585
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 14: up in life, sure years ago and had things nothing

586
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 14: pertaining to this, but just about how the law was

587
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:05,879
Speaker 14: that kind of.

588
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: Stuff, How did the law work there? Did you hear

589
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,360
Speaker 1: crooked good old Boys club?

590
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 14: Yeah you could say that I didn't hear it that

591
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 14: a way, but yes, heard a lot more about that

592
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,439
Speaker 14: since this has been going on, talking to people over

593
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 14: the telephone and stuff like that. Sure, Sure, I know

594
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 14: back in the wilder days I know, a lot of

595
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:28,800
Speaker 14: stuff come through this area.

596
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 1: What kind of stuff?

597
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 14: The drugs?

598
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: What kind of drugs?

599
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 14: I don't really know. The speed wasn't really on what

600
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,320
Speaker 14: I was into, but I know a lot of people

601
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 14: that were coming to this area to do their pickups, yes,

602
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,399
Speaker 14: and from who and stuff I can't couldn't say.

603
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 1: Troy clarified that by speed, he's referring to math. Do

604
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,240
Speaker 1: you recall hearing about what happened to Shelley and Vincent?

605
00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 14: I got there the day after it happened. You know,

606
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 14: wasn't hearing a lot because we're considered kids at that time,

607
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 14: even though a senior in high school, and I remember

608
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 14: hearing my father and his brother that had talked about,

609
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 14: you know, word is that the man that owns the

610
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 14: town and didn't know it back at the time, knew

611
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 14: he owned a sausage plan or a processing plant. Really

612
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 14: couldn't say what kind of plant it was, but it

613
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 14: was to do something with animals, that he owned the

614
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 14: town that somehow he was involved. And then again they're

615
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:42,280
Speaker 14: talking at that time about the law being involved. Can't

616
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 14: really finger pinpoint to any certain person, you know, and

617
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 14: just being straight up about it, but it was you

618
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 14: know the man that owns the town, his people are involved,

619
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 14: and the law.

620
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 1: That man, Weldon Kennedy and his sausage processing plant is

621
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 1: a threat. I began to hear from several people I interviewed.

622
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: By the time I sat down with Troy in early

623
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five, I still wasn't certain how a sausage

624
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 1: factory in Weatherford and its wealthy businessman owner could be

625
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 1: connected to the murders of two teens in town. The

626
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 1: year following the murders, nineteen eighty four, Weldon Kennedy was

627
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 1: convicted of alien crimes, as the local paper put it,

628
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 1: thirty one charges relating to transporting and harboring undocumented workers

629
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 1: human trafficking. He was bringing in illegal aliens from Mexico

630
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,919
Speaker 1: and hiding them out in his plant, basically making them

631
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 1: work to pay off debts. A nice word for it

632
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: is indentured servitude. We've all heard this disgusting narrative before,

633
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 1: but Kennedy has been accused of other crimes as well,

634
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 1: big bad things. So I asked mel Mitchell, who has

635
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 1: spent years running this part of the case down, to

636
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:10,879
Speaker 1: explain the connection between this guy and these murders. Had

637
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 1: the kids somehow stumbled upon his human trafficking operation that night.

638
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 1: Was I back to square one, a motive that makes

639
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 1: perfect sense, wrong place, wrong time.

640
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 7: Kennedy's Sausage company is owned by Weldon Kennedy, and it

641
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 7: was probably one of the bigger employment companies in that

642
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 7: time period back you know, and I know he owned

643
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 7: a couple of other businesses, but I know that was

644
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 7: like a larger place of employment for people in Weatherford.

645
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 7: Looking at court cases, well, to have been convicted of

646
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 7: quite a few different crimes of a time period, and

647
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 7: those also included the illegal immigrants that he was having

648
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 7: brought in from you know, from Central America, Mexico then,

649
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 7: so he was hiding them in the facility. There's like

650
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:03,799
Speaker 7: a specially a false wall from what we understand, and

651
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 7: so you can move it back and I could hold

652
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 7: maybe I've heard up to eleven people in it. But

653
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 7: that's also where we may have had a stash of

654
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 7: illegal alcohol. He had also been rumored to be gun

655
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 7: smuggling human trafficking, you know, obviously narcotics. We believe he

656
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 7: is also involved in our togics trafficking. So he kind

657
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 7: of had his fingers in pretty much everything.

658
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:36,320
Speaker 1: What you just heard private investigator Mel Mitchell explain opened

659
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 1: up a vein in this case, taking me further down

660
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: into a rabbit hole than I could have ever expected.

661
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,879
Speaker 1: It seems that Kennedy was connected to the same man

662
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 1: whose name I've been censoring throughout the podcast, someone high

663
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 1: up in law enforcement. So now you're looking at the

664
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 1: potential of a hardcore, convicted criminal, Weldon Kennedy involved in

665
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 1: enormously profitable federal crimes. It's not crazy to think that

666
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:12,840
Speaker 1: a guy like this wouldn't have thought twice about taking

667
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 1: out two kids who randomly stumbled upon his operation or

668
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: ran into one of his soldiers. Jimmy Freeman was a

669
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,440
Speaker 1: deputy for the Sheriff's department back in the day and

670
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 1: had a lot to say about what was going on

671
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 1: inside that department, a department that kept a close eye

672
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 1: on what was going on around Weatherford.

673
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 4: I'm from Minerales, right west to Weatherford, and it's a

674
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 4: smaller town than Weatherford. Just as soon as I was

675
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 4: in a school, I went to work for the State

676
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 4: of Texas down in Huntsville on what's going to college

677
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 4: down there? Get Huntsville and I started working for the

678
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:01,239
Speaker 4: penitentiary and the game mordens and the highway patrols when

679
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 4: I was just a young man and stayed there, stayed

680
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 4: there for ten eleven years, and went from there when

681
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 4: I come When I left there and come up here,

682
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,320
Speaker 4: I went to work for the Sheriff's Department and stayed

683
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 4: here another six or seven years here in Parker County

684
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,879
Speaker 4: with the Sheriff's Department. And I finally got out and

685
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 4: started doing anything and everything, building houses, building barns, building senses.

686
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 1: When he went to work for the Sheriff's department, Jimmy

687
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 1: says he saw and heard things which were hard to

688
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 1: believe at first, and almost as if on Q that

689
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 1: name I have been censoring throughout, it comes up again.

690
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 4: Well, it was okay at first when I first, when

691
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 4: I first went to work for him, but then all

692
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 4: of a sudden changed the laws as he went as

693
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 4: he went down the road, and there's not but one

694
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:03,839
Speaker 4: law ever been made. And he wanted me the very

695
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 4: first time, there was a man that was asleep on

696
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 4: the side of the road.

697
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 2: I got the call, so I went.

698
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,320
Speaker 4: I went out there and found the man. He was asleep.

699
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:13,359
Speaker 9: There was an empty whiskey bottle.

700
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 4: In the back and wanted me to give him a

701
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 4: d w I, And I told I can't give him

702
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 4: no d w I. I said, I didn't see the

703
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:24,879
Speaker 4: man driving. He's sleep in the damn car.

704
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: A seemingly small corruption operation soon turned into what Jimmy

705
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 1: saw as a much bigger one as time went on

706
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 1: and he kept his mouth shut and his eyes open.

707
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 4: Then I found out two or three times that he

708
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,879
Speaker 4: had some people's deal cars and tear them apart, take

709
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 4: them apart, and sell all the parts different places and

710
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 4: stuff like that. It just rocked on, and he was

711
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 4: not the man I thought he was.

712
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 2: When I went to work for him.

713
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:07,800
Speaker 1: I asked him about the production and distribution of methamphetamine.

714
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 1: Had he ever discovered anyone in law enforcement involved?

715
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 4: And I knew where there were some places down here

716
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 4: at Millsap, that there was put some cooks down there

717
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:25,760
Speaker 4: when he finally quit up under, but he moved.

718
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 2: They moved.

719
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 4: He moved down there. And he had two places in

720
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 4: mills Oup, both owned by the county, and.

721
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 1: These were places where they cooked methamphetamine.

722
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 9: Yes, yes, so was involved.

723
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 1: In the process of the cooking or distribution or was

724
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 1: he overseeing.

725
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 2: All of it? All of it?

726
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 4: And like I said everything. He had to cook all

727
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 4: this stuff, and they distributed and put it down. Rex

728
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 4: Cobble Weldon Kennedy.

729
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 1: Rex Cobble, known as the marijuana kingpin of Texas during

730
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies, and also as Jimmy Freeman, seems to

731
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:13,800
Speaker 1: suggest the general within what was known as the Cowboy Mafia,

732
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 1: a large group of very wealthy drug smugglers. Cobble was

733
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 1: later indicted and convicted on ten counts ranging from racketeering

734
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 1: to misapplication of bank funds. Rex Cobble and Weldon Kennedy,

735
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:34,320
Speaker 1: Jimmy says, we're at the top, whereas the other man, Well,

736
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: I'll let Jimmy explain.

737
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:43,320
Speaker 4: A little man up against Rex Cobble and in wild

738
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 4: and Kennedy.

739
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 1: Okay, the sausage guy they.

740
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 4: Were, he was it was like about four or five

741
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:55,760
Speaker 4: counties when Rix Cobble was. He was worldwide, and Weldon

742
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 4: Kennedy was four or five states, if not more.

743
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:04,320
Speaker 1: I needed to wrap my mind around exactly what Jimmy

744
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 1: Freeman was telling me that this high ranking member of

745
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:13,800
Speaker 1: law enforcement and Weldon Kennedy were allegedly at one time

746
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 1: major meth distributors in Parker County, and beyond. Jimmy wasn't

747
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 1: the only source telling me this. I had heard it

748
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 1: time and again from law enforcement whistleblowers and others living

749
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 1: in the area, many of whom had actually worked for

750
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:34,840
Speaker 1: the two of them. But what's even more astonishing is

751
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:40,360
Speaker 1: two people closely connected to Kennedy and that law enforcement

752
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 1: official NW Vincent and especially Shelley very well. These types

753
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:03,439
Speaker 1: of cold case, where information can feel scattered and fragmented,

754
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 1: require patience. I've learned over the years to trust the process,

755
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 1: keep talking to people and keep asking the right questions,

756
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:16,320
Speaker 1: and if there is a greater truth to be found,

757
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:21,479
Speaker 1: it will somehow rise to the surface all on its own.

758
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 1: Speaking to Jimmy Freeman felt like I could see the

759
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 1: sun rising just over the mountains, with peaks of light

760
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 1: finally starting to emerge. Shelley's cousin, Troy, wasn't finished talking,

761
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:40,399
Speaker 1: and what he tells me next sends things and yet

762
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:46,720
Speaker 1: another direction. So what are you hearing from the family.

763
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:51,319
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously everyone's distraught. Do you remember how it

764
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 1: was for family back then?

765
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 14: Oh, everybody was really tore up. It just took us

766
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 14: all by you know, major surprise. I mean, Shelley wouldn't

767
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 14: have done. From what I know of Shelley throughout the

768
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 14: you know what, sixteen seventeen years there, she was sweet, innocent,

769
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 14: didn't want problems, never caused any problems that I knew

770
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 14: of or mayby besides, you know, sneaking out of the

771
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 14: house or something other. I don't maybe a little smart

772
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 14: mouth talking or something other. That's about all I knew

773
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 14: of up until this happened. And then I can remember

774
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 14: my dad and his brother talking about it. Aunt Johnny

775
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,480
Speaker 14: at the time wasn't really in a position to be talking,

776
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 14: you know, being all upset and stuff. But yeah, it

777
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 14: was pretty tough on the family. And it's a shame

778
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 14: that a lot of her family has passed away and

779
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 14: we've never gotten anywhere.

780
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 2: You know.

781
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 14: I think of her from time to time, and now

782
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 14: that you know, forty plus years has gone by, it's

783
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 14: lessen that every day. I guess you could say that

784
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:53,359
Speaker 14: you'd stopped, I would stop and think of her. I know,

785
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 14: back in the day, you know, at my age, that

786
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:58,440
Speaker 14: was all I could think about for a long time,

787
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:01,720
Speaker 14: you know, just trying to close your eyes and picture

788
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 14: of what really happened that night, you know, I know,

789
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 14: Vincent he was from hearing the family talk. He was

790
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 14: a well liked guy. I knew a lot of people,

791
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 14: of course, knowing how Shelley is, you know, like I said,

792
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 14: she was a good kid as far as I'm concerned,

793
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:17,479
Speaker 14: never really done anything wrong.

794
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier that there were two things Shelley's cousin Troy,

795
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:27,359
Speaker 1: told me, both of which sent me scurrying down into

796
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 1: a deeper part of this investigation. One was the implication

797
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 1: that convicted human trafficker Welding Kennedy had some sort of

798
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:42,799
Speaker 1: connection to the case. The other is more recent, much

799
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 1: more Actually, something strange happened to Troy one evening in

800
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:52,240
Speaker 1: late twenty twenty four when he got home from work.

801
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 1: He stepped out of his truck, walked toward the front

802
00:49:56,160 --> 00:50:02,880
Speaker 1: door of his house and found a surprise waiting for him.

803
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:07,399
Speaker 14: There was an envelope laying on the front ports there

804
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 14: in between the front door and the screen door, and

805
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 14: I didn't think much bad it, picked it up, went

806
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 14: on in the house, you know, kind of did my

807
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,759
Speaker 14: normal get home routine there, and then opened it up.

808
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 14: And it was who brought or delivered this still today

809
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 14: have no clue, but it was the copy of the

810
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 14: autopsy report, Onshelley.

811
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 1: And what'd you do?

812
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 14: I read it and then made a few phone calls.

813
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 1: Both families had been lobbying for records in the case

814
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 1: for the past four decades, to no avail, not a

815
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 1: witness statement, photograph, not even a damn police report. They

816
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: had been told it was an open case and whether

817
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:58,000
Speaker 1: for police department cannot release records. They had been told

818
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:01,440
Speaker 1: all the records were lost in a flood. They had

819
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 1: been told a truck pulled up and took everything to

820
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:09,959
Speaker 1: the local garbage dump. So nobody knew what the hell

821
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:15,320
Speaker 1: to believe anymore. And now suddenly an anonymous person slips

822
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:20,839
Speaker 1: Shelley's autopsy report into Troy's door in November twenty twenty four.

823
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 1: What message is this person trying to send? And why now?

824
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 1: What did you feel after reading it?

825
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:44,879
Speaker 14: Numb out to a point confused, you know, and then

826
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:49,319
Speaker 14: really confused on how did somebody find word to put that?

827
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 14: Who was it? And who knows me that had that?

828
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:57,239
Speaker 14: It's really strange.

829
00:51:57,480 --> 00:51:59,919
Speaker 1: Why hadn't they mailed it instead of taking the risk

830
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 1: of being caught dropping it off? Why Troy, he was

831
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 1: not even one of the more public family members out

832
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 1: there speaking about the case. What could be in that

833
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 1: report that meant so much at this point in the investigation.

834
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 1: I asked him about it all, and what Troy tells

835
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 1: me next, well, is something completely out of left field.

836
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:28,839
Speaker 14: I know it's going to throw a loo, but I

837
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 14: kind of feel that her father, Ronnie Califlyer, was involved

838
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:34,799
Speaker 14: in it, or at least knew of something going on.

839
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:40,840
Speaker 14: I've tried contacting him through his daughter, called, left messages,

840
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 14: text message, Facebook. I can't get him the call back.

841
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:48,640
Speaker 14: My dad always with his brother, he would always say,

842
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:51,839
Speaker 14: had he put it, I lay you two to one

843
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:56,400
Speaker 14: that he's involved some form or fashion is what my

844
00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 14: dad would say.

845
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 1: Whatever platform you get your favorite podcast sign, please check

846
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 1: out my weekly series Crossing the Line with em William Phelps,

847
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:26,720
Speaker 1: where I delve into a new missing person and cold

848
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:33,319
Speaker 1: case murder each week. Coming up in the next episode,

849
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 1: Paper Ghosts and.

850
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:38,440
Speaker 15: Some other people came in and I stepped out into

851
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 15: the hallway and Ronnie came in and told me that

852
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 15: I needed to leave. He was angry, very and he

853
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 15: said I need you to leave and I said, okay,

854
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:52,279
Speaker 15: I can do that, and he said, no, I want

855
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:53,479
Speaker 15: you out of my house now.

856
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 7: And one person went to Vincent's side and kind of

857
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:59,239
Speaker 7: looked in on the casket. The other person went to

858
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:01,799
Speaker 7: Shelley's side, looked in on the casket, and then kind

859
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:03,520
Speaker 7: of met up in the middle. And people are kind

860
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 7: of looking at them, thinking okay orre they introduce themselves,

861
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:08,319
Speaker 7: They're gonna say hi, but they don't do any of that.

862
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 7: They just kind of whenever they're looked at the caskets

863
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 7: and kind of met in the middle and then left.

864
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 16: Wendy had gone to Lake Weatherford to a place called

865
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 16: the Wall. She was alone, and she didn't come home,

866
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:24,400
Speaker 16: and so they called the police and.

867
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:25,400
Speaker 9: Reported her missing.

868
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:33,239
Speaker 1: Paper Ghosts Season five is written and executive produced by

869
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 1: Me and William Phelps. Script consulting by iHeartMedia, executive producer

870
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 1: Catherine Law, Production by toc Boom Productions, Audio mastering and

871
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:49,920
Speaker 1: mixing by Brandon Dicker. The series theme number four four

872
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:53,920
Speaker 1: to two is written and performed by Thomas Phelps and

873
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:55,360
Speaker 1: Tom Mooney.