1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Freeway Phanom, a production of iHeartRadio, 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV, and Black bar Mitzvah. The views and opinions 3 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 1: expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast 4 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do not 5 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 1: represent those of iHeartMedia, Tenderfoot TV, Black bar Mitzvah, or 6 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: their employees. This podcast also contains subject matter that may 7 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: not be suitable for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 8 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 2: Freeways are interesting because millions of people use them, but 9 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 2: very few people walk along the sides of them. They're 10 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 2: very accessible, but they're also not generally used for foot traffic, 11 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 2: and so it's very easy to conceal someone just off 12 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 2: of a very very busy highway because nobody usually walks 13 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 2: along there. It means that he one has a car, 14 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 2: two knows when he can get on and off that 15 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 2: road without being detected. Most likely has a job or 16 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 2: family situation which allows him to be out at any hour. 17 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 3: Of the day or night. 18 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 2: Because, believe me, choosing these victims and abducting these victims 19 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 2: took a long time. He had to be out there 20 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 2: a long time to get access. 21 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 3: To these particular victims. 22 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,680 Speaker 2: They weren't doing things that they did every day at 23 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 2: that time. That means he has to be available to 24 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 2: wait for them to show up and to follow them, 25 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 2: and then to be vulnerable. So they're not vulnerable while 26 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:45,479 Speaker 2: they're inside a. 27 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 3: Store or with other people. They're vulnerable when they're alone. 28 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:52,919 Speaker 2: This is exactly who he wanted, and he was willing 29 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 2: to take a great risk to get her. 30 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 4: The homicide detectives termed the cases the little girl cases. 31 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 5: This child was laying on the side of the road. 32 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 5: I wouldn't go no way. 33 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 6: I would call up my house. 34 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 7: Those first five murders should have been a huge warning 35 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 7: bell for the police. 36 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 4: We just want to know what happened. This person must 37 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 4: have saw that They was thinking that maybe it's just 38 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 4: one person, and he says, uh, they need to know. 39 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 4: This is me. 40 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 5: I thought that they would catch him. I thought it 41 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 5: was just a matter of time. 42 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 8: I'm Celeste Headley and this is Freeway Phantom. In the 43 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 8: previous seven episodes, we covered the murders of eight young 44 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 8: black girls, ranging in age from ten to eighteen years old, 45 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 8: that occurred in DC from nineteen seventy one to nineteen 46 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 8: seventy two. There were six confirmed victims of the Freeway Phantom. 47 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 8: And then there was the case of Angela Barnes, originally 48 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,920 Speaker 8: co ittered victim number three, whose case was closed after 49 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 8: two police officers were convicted of the crime. Then there 50 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 8: was Tera Bryant, originally considered the final victim, who was 51 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 8: eventually removed from the Freeway Phantom victim list. And two 52 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:18,079 Speaker 8: things are unclear about TERA's case. Who removed her from 53 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 8: the investigation and why. Fifty years later, Detective Romaine Jenkins 54 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 8: still believes that Tara was yet another victim of the 55 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 8: Freeway Phantom, although her family believes otherwise. As we learned 56 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 8: in the last episode, law enforcement turned their attention to 57 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 8: the Green Vega Gang in nineteen seventy four, and although 58 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 8: they were officially ruled out as suspects in the Freeway 59 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 8: Phantom murders, many in law enforcement assumed they were responsible. 60 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 8: Others thought Robert Askins was the likely killer, a suspect 61 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 8: we talked about in episode six. All of this led 62 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 8: the majority of the Metropolitan Police Department to conclude that 63 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 8: the cases were solved, but not Detective Romayn Jenkins. 64 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 4: Were looking for the wrong person. They didn't know about profiling, 65 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 4: and all of that They're not looking for the guy 66 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 4: who hides behind a tree, you know, this dastardly guy 67 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 4: who's gonna grab a woman, some psycho. That's not what 68 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 4: they were looking for, and that's what they went after. 69 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 8: For ten years, the case files sat there called untouched, 70 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 8: until Romayne took over the case in nineteen eighty four. 71 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 4: So I had at my disposal, I had seven senior 72 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 4: homicide detectives, and I decided, I said, why not use them? 73 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 4: And some of them had actually worked on the cases traitionally, yeah, originally, 74 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 4: And they gave me their notebooks and so forth, and they, 75 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 4: you know, could you read all their handwriting? Uh huh. See, 76 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 4: back then, we were the carbon paper typewriter folks. There 77 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 4: were no computers. We didn't have computers. You had to 78 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 4: type everything and man ooh, you had to be detailed. 79 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 4: And we work closely with the medical exams this office, 80 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 4: so you know, we learned a lot about anatomy and 81 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 4: causes of death and things like that. We investigated causes 82 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 4: of death. 83 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 8: Although she was now leading a team, many in the 84 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 8: police department weren't too happy about having a black female supervisor. 85 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 8: Romayne says that throughout the nineteen seventies and eighties, racism 86 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,599 Speaker 8: was alive and well in the MPD racism. 87 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 4: You talk about racism, Oh yes, I just signed black 88 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 4: officers to a scout car and I'm riding along in 89 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,119 Speaker 4: the area and I see the black officer walking the footb. 90 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 4: Is what you're doing walking up footb? The lieutenant took 91 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 4: me out the car and put officers on. So and 92 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 4: those are the things that they did back then, you know. 93 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 4: So racism hadn't gone away, you know, sexism and sexism 94 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 4: because because the women were mistreated by the officers they were, 95 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,280 Speaker 4: they tried to intimidate some of them, you know, and 96 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 4: some of the women, some of the women just said, 97 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 4: you know what, this is not for me, and they 98 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 4: left the job. You know, they actually left the job. 99 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:07,359 Speaker 4: And as a supervisor on the job, you know, I 100 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 4: thought I would have some power, but no, I really didn't. 101 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 4: And I know one time my lieutenant asked me, he said, 102 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 4: Sergeant Jenkins, do you think I'm a racist? And I said, yes, sir, 103 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 4: you are. And he says, I'm not a racist. My 104 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 4: next door neighbor is black. I said, Lieutenant, the only 105 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 4: reason your next door neighbor is black is because you 106 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 4: don't have enough money to move out the neighborhood. See. 107 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 4: I was like that because my husband was president of 108 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:39,280 Speaker 4: the Afro American Police Association, so there was a militantcy. 109 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 4: I had an instance where two of my officers, one 110 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 4: white and one black, they saved a little three year 111 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 4: old who had been left in the car and the 112 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 4: car burst out in flames, and officers went in and 113 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 4: got that child. I wrote the officers up to the 114 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 4: awards committee, only the white officer's name went. I mean, 115 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 4: they would do things like that, and so I was 116 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 4: always constantly, you know, in battle with them. And I said, 117 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 4: you know what, I'd enjoined the police department to go 118 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 4: through us. I mean, these are the things that I 119 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 4: had to face out there. The commander at that time, 120 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 4: I went to him, I said, sir, we have a 121 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 4: problem over here. He said, what's wrong. I said, you know, 122 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 4: the policewomen, these black police women are being harassed, They're 123 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 4: being mistreated. I said, I think we only had like 124 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 4: one or two white females. And the white girl who 125 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 4: came from Connecticut who had never seen a black person before. 126 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 4: They gave her a short beat around the station. That 127 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 4: was her assignment. She had to walk around the station 128 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 4: for the tour of duty. I mean, this actually happened. 129 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 4: And so I said, you know, we're having a problem 130 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 4: and something has to be done. He said, well, you 131 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 4: know what, and he was white. He said, we're not 132 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 4: going to tolerate. He said, I want you to do 133 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 4: an investigation and let the chips fall where they may. 134 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 4: And so I said okay. And in the end room, 135 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 4: a black officer came there and say, look, Sorge, and 136 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 4: be careful because the white officers gonna get you. He said, 137 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 4: I don't know what they planning, but they plotting something. 138 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 4: He said. I was in the locker room and I 139 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 4: got bits and pieces of the conversation. They're gonna do 140 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 4: something to you because they upset that you initiated this 141 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:20,239 Speaker 4: investigation of the things they did to the black police swiomen. 142 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 4: So I said, thank you. And it wasn't no longer 143 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 4: than a day or so later. Whenever my troops went 144 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 4: on a run, I'm just a supervisor. I'm out there 145 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 4: riding up and down in a scoutcar. I go and 146 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 4: see how they handle it. I'd go park in the 147 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 4: neighborhood and watch how they handle how they interact with people, 148 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 4: and I got out the car and I was walking 149 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 4: towards them. Well by then they had cleared the runs 150 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 4: at ten eight nothing found or whatever it was. And 151 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 4: so as I was walking back to my to my 152 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,559 Speaker 4: scout car, they got in the car and the officer 153 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 4: gunn in the car. I had to jump up on 154 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:01,079 Speaker 4: a citizen's car to keep from getting hit. I was, Oh, 155 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 4: was I hot? I was hot? So I didn't say anything. 156 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 4: When I got in my scout car, I went over 157 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,839 Speaker 4: the air and asked the dispatcher to locate that unit 158 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 4: for me and have them meet me at there. Stand 159 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:15,679 Speaker 4: by their location. I'm responding. They stood by. I went 160 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:17,959 Speaker 4: to their location and I told it was two white 161 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 4: officers and I told them, whatever you applied and to 162 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 4: get me, make sure that you don't miss the next time, 163 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 4: or else I'm going to kick your you know, and 164 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 4: I use the word you can use it, yeah ass. 165 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 4: And if I can't whip your ass, I have a 166 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 4: husband up in three D Whu's six foot two, and 167 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 4: he will do it. But don't miss the next time. 168 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 4: They didn't say nothing. They went on back and got 169 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 4: in the scout car and drove off. 170 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 8: It is so difficult for me to hear you tell 171 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 8: these stories about the way the police force was in 172 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:55,439 Speaker 8: the nineteen seventies and think that that prejudice, that racism 173 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 8: didn't hamper the investigation. That they may have invested a 174 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 8: lot of officers hours and energy and focus and time 175 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 8: into the investigation. But how were these detectives not let 176 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:10,559 Speaker 8: us stray by their own prejudices. 177 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 4: Oh, they had to be. They had to be because 178 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 4: first of all, they didn't understand the community that they 179 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 4: were investigating. I say, you know, police are representative of 180 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 4: the communities that they police. If the citizens act wild 181 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 4: and crazy, the police are the same thing. That's that's 182 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 4: the same kind of thing you're possibly be going to get. 183 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:34,679 Speaker 4: Here is the thing. Sometimes, as a police officer, you 184 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,319 Speaker 4: have you've got to put aside your personal feelings. The 185 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 4: only person who ever tried to kill me on the 186 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 4: Metropolitan Police Department was a black police officer. Okay, you know, 187 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 4: a black police officer tried to kill me and he 188 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 4: ended up getting arrested. So you can't say all the 189 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 4: white police officers bad. There's some black ones just the same. 190 00:10:57,760 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 9: You know. 191 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 8: By the mid eighties, Romaine and her team were entirely 192 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 8: focused on the Freeway phantom case, and Romayne had her 193 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 8: work cut out for her. 194 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 4: When I first started, one of the first things I 195 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 4: did was's tried to find the evidence. When I checked 196 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 4: with the Metropolitan Police Department and I found that the 197 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 4: evidence had been destroyed. The officer took me to the 198 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,959 Speaker 4: property book where the evidence was and said evidence has 199 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 4: been destroyed. So say, oh, that's a DC for me. 200 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 4: So then I contacted PG County. PG County found the 201 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 4: evidence in their cases, and I got a technician from 202 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 4: the FBI to meet me and another detective over in 203 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:44,959 Speaker 4: their property office and we went over the evidence. Conclusion 204 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 4: was they hadn't preserved it well enough that they could 205 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 4: get any type of DNA, but that was back then. 206 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 4: They have made advances now now whatever happened to that evidence, 207 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:55,839 Speaker 4: I don't know. 208 00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 8: But Romayne was able to start making some connections with 209 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 8: the evidence she did have. 210 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 4: That's when I saw the report about the green fibers. 211 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 4: That's what really piqued my I said, nobody never mentioned 212 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 4: anything about green synthetic fibers. And I asked a couple 213 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 4: of the people who I knew who had worked on 214 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 4: the investigation, and they said didn't know anything about green fibers. 215 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 8: Well, investigators did initially identify the green fibers on each 216 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 8: of the victims. Somehow they failed to connect them or 217 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,319 Speaker 8: analyze them conclusively. Remain decided it was time to make 218 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 8: that happen. 219 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 4: Well, see what happened is no one knew about the 220 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 4: green synthetic fibers until Detective Lloyd Davis developed Askings as 221 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:48,239 Speaker 4: a suspect. When Davis had requested that all the evidence 222 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 4: be sent to the FBI, that's when they came back 223 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 4: about the green synthetic fibers, which aren't really green if 224 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 4: you see them visuals. Now, this is what the FBI 225 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 4: technician told me, the guy who handled the cases to 226 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 4: the naked eye, they are different color. They're only green 227 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 4: if you look at them under a microscopt What are 228 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,199 Speaker 4: the sources of the fibers? That's that's what I wanted 229 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 4: to know about the fiber evidence. And he did the 230 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 4: fiber evidence in the Wayne Williams Atlanta murders. So I 231 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 4: figured he's gonna have some credibility which was also green. 232 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 8: Actually, yeah, coincidentally. 233 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 4: So I asked him, I said, well, you know, what's 234 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 4: the source of the fibers? He said he thought they 235 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 4: came from an auto. But I talked to Detective Lloyd Davis, 236 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 4: who had all the evidence submitted. He said he was 237 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 4: told that the fibers came from a bathroom. Mate like 238 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 4: a bath mat and a bathroom, and that goes along 239 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 4: with these victims being washed and cleaned. I said, that 240 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 4: sounds about right as far as I'm concerned. 241 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 8: One of the most important things that remain did was 242 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 8: submit evidence to the FBI to get the first official 243 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 8: profile of the killer, and they came up with some 244 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 8: intriguing conclusions. 245 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 4: They felt that this person was in the military. Well, 246 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 4: at that time, you had all these military people coming 247 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:13,559 Speaker 4: back from Vietnam who were in hospitals here and installations here, 248 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 4: so you had a lot of that going on. But 249 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 4: that was really interesting. And the reason why I thought 250 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 4: it was so interesting was because when I showed the 251 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 4: note to the FBI, they said, this is military. This 252 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 4: person was in the military. I showed the same note 253 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 4: to the investigator at Naval Investigated Service. He said, oh, 254 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 4: whoever wrote this note? This military? So I had two 255 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 4: different brains saying the same thing. You know that this 256 00:14:40,640 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 4: person was in the military. 257 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 8: Romaine eventually retired from the police force, and with her retirement, 258 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 8: the case essentially went cold. That was until it was 259 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 8: picked up in the early two thousands by former DC 260 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 8: homicide detective Jim Trainam, who stumbled into it almost by accident. 261 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 9: That kind of took over a project where we were 262 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 9: looking at all of these unsolved cases involving women in DC, 263 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 9: like one hundred had been identified over a ten year 264 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 9: period by the Washington Post. And that was also during 265 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 9: the time period where they first started the coda's database. 266 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 9: You know, before you really couldn't do anything with DNA 267 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 9: unless you had a named suspect to do a one 268 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 9: to one comparison to. But with codas, she could put 269 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 9: the information into a database, it would run it against 270 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 9: other cases, it would run it against a database or 271 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 9: a collection of suspects. So it was during that time 272 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 9: when I was first getting started somebody came to me 273 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 9: and asking me about the Freeway phantom case, and I 274 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 9: really didn't know anything about it at the time. I 275 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 9: began to do research and poll what I could, and 276 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 9: basically I found the very minimal paperwork, just entries in 277 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 9: our homicide log book, and that was pretty much it. 278 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 9: We didn't have any files we didn't have any evidence. 279 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 9: And the more I looked, the more I realized, like 280 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 9: you know, all the cases that were out in PG, 281 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 9: they really didn't have any files. They had some evidence 282 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 9: that they were looking at in the Wooded case, but 283 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 9: everything had pretty much been destroyed, and so I was 284 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 9: just trying to build what I could based on these 285 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 9: paper accounts and things along that. 286 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 8: Line, much like Romayne decades before him, Jim train And 287 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 8: discovered that the evidence in the case had been poorly maintained, 288 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 8: either damaged or mysteriously missing. But he slowly started to 289 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 8: connect some dots. 290 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 9: So I was able to some stuff from Prince George's county. 291 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 9: And then we found out that the FBI had gotten 292 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 9: involved in the Worder case and they had quite an 293 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 9: extensive file. I was able to get that and make 294 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 9: a copy of it as well. I was continuing to 295 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 9: look for evidence during that time, kept finding nothing, nothing, nothing. 296 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 9: And after we got the FBI file and we learned 297 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 9: about people like, let say, Romaine Jenkins who had information 298 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:29,719 Speaker 9: as well. I was approached by Dale Wilbur of the 299 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 9: Washington Post, and you know, he wanted to do some 300 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:35,919 Speaker 9: work on cold cases, and so he was asking me 301 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,879 Speaker 9: about cases that I thought would be interesting, and I 302 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 9: had mentioned the Freeway Phantom to him, and so he 303 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:43,679 Speaker 9: thought that was going to be a good case to 304 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:45,880 Speaker 9: the feature, And so we pretty much gave him open 305 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 9: access to our files that we had at the time 306 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,439 Speaker 9: because it was so old, we figured it wasn't going 307 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 9: to do any harm. 308 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 3: So he did. 309 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 9: What I really wanted to do was that he actually 310 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 9: went out and knocked on the doors of the detectives 311 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 9: who actually worked on the case originally, and they would 312 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 9: invite them in and they would say, yeah, I know 313 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 9: all about it. I'll talk to you about it. Come 314 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 9: on in, and by the way, would you'd like to 315 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 9: see my file. It turns out that a lot of 316 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 9: them missing files had been taken home by the original 317 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 9: case detectives for later that back in the eighties, they 318 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 9: were packing up a lot of those files. Because of 319 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 9: the way that files were retained back then, they were 320 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 9: throwing out a lot of things like crime scene reports, photographs, 321 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 9: witness statements and all of that on all these cases, 322 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:37,719 Speaker 9: including the Freeway Phantom case. And that's been changed because 323 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 9: of the law, they can't do that anymore. 324 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 8: One of those people was Romaine Jenkins, who kept most 325 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,400 Speaker 8: of the files from the Freeway Phantom case in boxes 326 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 8: in our house. These are the very same boxes that 327 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 8: we sifted through when we visited her home. 328 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 10: Well, here's some of that carbon paper you're talking about. 329 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 9: Yeah. 330 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 4: That all I had to do was okay, See the 331 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 4: police department likes to throw away stuff. Yeah, and I 332 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 4: don't throw away nothing because you never know when you're 333 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 4: going to see it again. 334 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 8: Oh, it looks like it's from the memorial service. 335 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:11,400 Speaker 9: That the memorial. 336 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 10: This is Ninemosia's autopsy reports or foot tall and one. 337 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 9: Hundred pounds. 338 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 8: Student at Kelly Miller Junior High School in the sixth grade. 339 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 3: That's tough. 340 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 8: Photos are not here, but. 341 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 9: I think the ends. 342 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:34,880 Speaker 11: The thing. 343 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 9: She realized that a lot of the files were being purged, 344 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 9: so she actually took all the purge material and kept 345 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 9: it herself. So between her and her institutional knowledge and 346 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,120 Speaker 9: what Dell was able to gather for us, we were 347 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 9: able to recreate a lot of the original files, and 348 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 9: so we had a good foundation to work on from there. 349 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 8: Jim Treeham says Roman was instrumental in his reinvestigation of 350 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 8: the Freeway Phantom case. 351 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 3: She is wonderful. 352 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 9: I mean, her memory of this case. Anything that I 353 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 9: say that is contradicted by her, go with what she says, 354 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 9: because where I have, you know, files and reports that 355 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 9: I am working off of and all that. She has 356 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 9: a great institutional memory about what was actually going on 357 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:27,200 Speaker 9: during that time, which is so important because she knows, 358 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 9: you know, what, not only what the department was like, 359 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 9: but what was those neighborhoods were like, what the relationships 360 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 9: were between the department and the neighborhoods and the media 361 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 9: and all of that. And just talking with her, I 362 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 9: always learned something new. We talked several times, you know, 363 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 9: during that time period, and we've actually talked several times 364 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 9: since where we've discussed various issues. 365 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 3: On the case and all of that. 366 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 9: And you know, she was able to help us out, 367 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 9: you know, quite a lot, because even with what we 368 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 9: were able to gather, when you're digging through these old 369 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 9: files and stuff, you're almost like an archaeologist. You're trying 370 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 9: to kind of piece together little things, and some of 371 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 9: the documents that you would come across, they would make 372 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 9: reference to things that you would go, well, where is that? 373 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 9: Where is that in another document? And you can't find it, 374 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 9: So you know that at some point something existed. 375 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 8: After some digging, Jim and his team were able to 376 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 8: identify some new evidence that hadn't been thoroughly looked at before. 377 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 5: During the time that we were working on this, we 378 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 5: basically learned that there was evidence available from two of 379 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 5: the different scenes. One was that PG County had evidence 380 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 5: from the Brenda Woodard case. It was part of the 381 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,680 Speaker 5: sex kit that they submitted to the Maryland State Police lab. 382 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 5: And at that time the technology is in advance as 383 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 5: it is now, they weren't able to get a DNA 384 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 5: profile off of the material that was left, and there 385 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 5: was so little material left that they actually used it 386 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 5: all up, and so we pretty much hit a data 387 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:07,879 Speaker 5: end right there. The second evidence actually came because of 388 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 5: our work. We were trying to promote the case and 389 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 5: get information out there about it, and I was doing 390 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 5: a presentation on it to the mid Atlantic Cold Case 391 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 5: Homicide Investigators Association when a cold case investigator from the 392 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 5: Maryland State Police said, wait a minute, the last victim, Williams, 393 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 5: that's our case. And it turns out we didn't know that, 394 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 5: but because of where her body was found, the Maryland 395 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 5: State Police had actually become involved in her case. And 396 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 5: so they actually had more case files that we weren't 397 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 5: aware of at the time, and they had a box 398 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 5: of some of her clothing, which was pretty exciting for us. 399 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,199 Speaker 5: And it turns out that, you know, her underwear was 400 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 5: in there, and there was a possibility that there were 401 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 5: some seamen stains, and so that was eventually submitted back 402 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 5: to the Maryland State Police Lab. But a follow up 403 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 5: investigation that was also being done by the National Center 404 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 5: for Missing and Exploited Children they were helping out as well. 405 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 5: It turns out that that was a boyfriend. She had 406 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 5: been with her boyfriend earlier that evening. He had dropped 407 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,959 Speaker 5: her off with the bus stop, and he definitely had 408 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 5: an alibi, so he wasn't involved. And so unfortunately we 409 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 5: hit dead ends on both accounts. But at least we now. 410 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 6: Know that we feel pretty comfortable that we've tracked down 411 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 6: what is out there. Not to say that something might 412 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 6: not pop up in the future sometime, but hopefully it will, 413 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 6: but you know, we've pretty much covered those bases, we think. 414 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 8: Trainham says that by far the most success they had 415 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 8: was with the profiles. They developed a new geographic profile, 416 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 8: which we talked about at length during episode six. They 417 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 8: also followed up on the original psychological profiles, including the 418 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 8: one commissioned by Romaine Jenkins and completed by the FBI, 419 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 8: but he says the track record of profiling throughout this 420 00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 8: case had been sketchy at best. 421 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 9: At the time that the case was ongoing. At first, 422 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:09,440 Speaker 9: what was actually happening. They went to several different psychiatrists 423 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,879 Speaker 9: psychologists in the area, and they talked to them and 424 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,439 Speaker 9: got various very different profiles. 425 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 3: I mean, some were. 426 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 9: Talking about how the persons psychotic, we're talking about No, 427 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 9: he's more like a normal person. Some talked about how 428 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 9: he would be triggered by the name Denise. Others disagreed 429 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 9: with that, and so they were all over the charts. 430 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 9: The FBI did do a profile several years later, where 431 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 9: I think they were much more grounded in the case. 432 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 9: Plus they had more experience working with this type of 433 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 9: personality or at least reviewing cases that were committed by 434 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 9: this type of person, and so they had a more 435 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 9: factual background. 436 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 8: Training believes that psychological profiles can be dangerous for investigators. 437 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 9: Profile is only as good as the information. Plus it's 438 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,679 Speaker 9: not going to point to one person. The profile is 439 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 9: going to help you prioritize who you look at over 440 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 9: other people. And you know, the profiles that I've worked 441 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 9: with in the past, you know basically tell you don't 442 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 9: eliminate somebody simply because of the profile, you know, just 443 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 9: put them lower on the list to investigate. And I 444 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 9: had mentioned it is only as good as the information 445 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 9: that they're given. And a lot of times what we 446 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:25,400 Speaker 9: do is we would go ask. 447 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 3: For a profile. Here, miss the profile. 448 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 9: Here's our case file, look at it. Tell me what 449 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 9: you think. We get the profile back. Six months later, 450 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,959 Speaker 9: my case follows down this and I lock up somebody 451 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 9: or identify somebody as a suspect who doesn't even come 452 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 9: close to this, and I'm going out a profile still good. 453 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 9: But if I had kept them abreast of all the 454 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,360 Speaker 9: incoming information at the time, then they could have modified 455 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 9: their thoughts and given me better investigative leads as new 456 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 9: information became available. So that's how we don't take advantage 457 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:00,199 Speaker 9: of this information. 458 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 8: Tretam warns that profiles, especially inaccurate ones, can lead to 459 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 8: what he calls tunnel vision. 460 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 9: The tunnel vision is basically focusing in on a suspect 461 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 9: or a theory to the exclusion of any other. Now, 462 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 9: at some point in an investigation, you have to kind 463 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 9: of start doing that, because once you start to identify 464 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 9: your suspect, then you begin to build a case against them. 465 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 9: It goes from being an evidence based investigation to not 466 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 9: a suspect based investigation. The danger is is that you 467 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 9: get confirmation biased. The confirmation bias is that you now 468 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,439 Speaker 9: have tunnel vision, but you're only going to seek information 469 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 9: that confirms what you believe to be true and you're 470 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 9: going to ignore information that contradicts that. So, you know, 471 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 9: tunnel vision is not that bad. You just have to 472 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 9: be able to have somebody say, hey, wait a minute, 473 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 9: you know, tap you on the shoulder. Did you think 474 00:26:58,280 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 9: about this? Oh no, I didn't. 475 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 3: Let's go look at that. That sort of thing. 476 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 9: So oftentimes somebody may get a profile or may focus 477 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,360 Speaker 9: in on this is who we think it is because 478 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 9: of this, and then they will start trying to make 479 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,679 Speaker 9: the person fit the evidence, rather than seeing where the 480 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 9: evidence takes them to the person. But we also have 481 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 9: a tendency to focusing on people who we don't think 482 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 9: are acting appropriately. You know, the strange guy and all that. 483 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 9: But you know, people act the way they do, and 484 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 9: when we project. That's not the way I would act 485 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 9: onto somebody. We've gotten off track many times by doing 486 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,679 Speaker 9: that sort of thing, rather than recognizing that no people 487 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 9: can act all sorts of ways and it. 488 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 3: Can be normal. 489 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 8: Triam says this sort of tunnel vision was evident in 490 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 8: the Freeway Phantom case. Their original profile of a mentally 491 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 8: ill man is what convinced so many people in law 492 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 8: enforcement that Robert Askins was the case. 493 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,199 Speaker 9: And here, just like with all the profiles that they 494 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 9: were getting from all of these psychiatrists and everything, the 495 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,159 Speaker 9: reason they were going to these people is that they 496 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 9: thought this escot was mentally insane. He was, you know, 497 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 9: somebody who should stand out in the psychiatric community as 498 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 9: having been treated for whatever ailments he had. And that's 499 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 9: not necessarily the case. 500 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 8: Train and Stress is that it's crucial profiles be constantly 501 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,440 Speaker 8: updated with new information. If a profile is years or 502 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 8: even months out of date, it can lead investigators in 503 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 8: the wrong direction. However, Jim is optimistic that with modern 504 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 8: technology and our current understanding of profiling, we can and 505 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 8: should continue working on the Freeway Phantom profile. 506 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 9: Things have come a long way since the seventies and eighties, 507 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 9: so I would be very interested to hear any updates 508 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 9: that anybody might have. 509 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 8: That's exactly why we decided it was time for a 510 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 8: new profile, something that hasn't been done since the mid 511 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 8: two thousands, and we found the perfect person to do it, 512 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 8: the former FBI profiler who cracked the DC Sniper case 513 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 8: and blew the lid off the Whitewater investigation. 514 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 3: I'm Jim Clemente. 515 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 2: I'm a retired FBIS Supervisory special Agent and profiler, and 516 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 2: I'm also the co founder of XG Productions and so 517 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 2: I write and produce and developed content for all platforms. 518 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 8: Our team first discovered Jim Clemente a few years ago 519 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,239 Speaker 8: during the production of Monster DC Sniper. Jim played an 520 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 8: instrumental role in developing the criminal profile in that case. 521 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 8: He spent years as a profiler with the FBI, and 522 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 8: after leaving, he went on to produce multiple seasons of 523 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 8: the show Criminal Minds. We thought there's no one better 524 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 8: to make a new profile for the Freeway Phantom, and 525 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 8: we started by asking him about the foundations of criminal 526 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 8: profiling and how it's come to prove such a success. 527 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 10: So how does one become a profiler? 528 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 2: Well, in the FBI, you have to first become an 529 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 2: FBI Special Agent and then go through the FBI Academy 530 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 2: and then work about ten years at least on major cases, 531 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 2: cooperating with local police departments, state police departments, and other 532 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 2: federal agencies and get enough experience on major cases that 533 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 2: you have something to bring to the Behavioral Analysis Unit. 534 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 2: So the Behavioral Analysis Unit is housed in the National 535 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 2: Center for the Analysis of Violent Crimes in Virginia at 536 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 2: the FBI Academy, and the Behavioral and EUSIS unit is 537 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 2: where the profilers are trained and they work. It basically 538 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 2: descended from the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit, and that was 539 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:17,479 Speaker 2: started by Howard Teaton in the early seventies, and it 540 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 2: evolved from a unit that had a few people to 541 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 2: one now that has five or six separate units and 542 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 2: twenty five to thirty five active FBI profilers. 543 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 8: You know, the case as you know that we're working 544 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 8: on is from the nineteen seventies when we didn't even 545 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 8: say serial killer. So I have to imagine that the 546 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 8: science of profiling has evolved a lot. You know, at 547 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 8: the time, if you read some of the early accounts 548 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 8: of trying to figure out what makes a serial killer 549 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 8: and you see some of these the early attempts, right, 550 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 8: trying to figure out what distinguishes a serial killer from 551 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 8: another type of murderer. 552 00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 10: That seems to have really evolved over the years. 553 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 8: And part of that, I think was because in the 554 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 8: very early years they were dealing with a very small 555 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 8: number of people that they could interview, right. 556 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, they interviewed thirty five or thirty eight people, and 557 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 2: when I left, it was up to fifteen hundred, So 558 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 2: we had a much broader base or foundation to the 559 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 2: information that we were basing our profiles on. 560 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 3: So basically, what. 561 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 2: We found was that there are a number of different 562 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 2: ways that people become serial killers and a number of 563 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 2: different ways that that manifests itself. 564 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 3: It's not one size of fis all. 565 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 2: You can't simply say, Okay, this is what motivates a 566 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 2: serial killer. There's a spectrum of behavior. There's a tremendous 567 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 2: amount of diversity among offenders, and that is evidenced in 568 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 2: how they do what they do, why they do what 569 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,480 Speaker 2: they do, and how long they get away with it. 570 00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 8: When we asked Jim Clemente to look into the Freeway 571 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 8: Fantom case, he said, the best place to begin is 572 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 8: to analyze everything we know about the killer. 573 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 2: We always start with picktimology, because looking at the victim 574 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 2: and understanding everything about the victims is like holding up 575 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 2: a mirror to the offender. There's a reason why he 576 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 2: chooses these particular victims, and in this case, seeing the 577 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 2: overwhelming similarities between these victims tells me that he had 578 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 2: a very very strong preference and he offended mainly against children. 579 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 2: They're petite girls too, and there's a reason for it. 580 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 2: He didn't randomly pick these girls. He picked them specifically 581 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 2: for that reason. Now, whether this was desire in him 582 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 2: that was conscious or subconscious, I don't know whether he 583 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 2: felt a certain way whenever he saw somebody he targeted 584 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 2: as a victim, or whether he specifically laid out the plans. 585 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 2: I'm going to wait for this kind of person to 586 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,240 Speaker 2: come into my sites, and then I'm going to wait. 587 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,280 Speaker 3: For the opportunity to take that person. 588 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:17,360 Speaker 2: I'm not sure about that, but the consistency with which 589 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 2: he operated tells me this was an incredibly important thing 590 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:21,879 Speaker 2: to him. 591 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 3: So that's the first thing. 592 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 2: Second thing is I would absolutely categorize him as a 593 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 2: preferential child sex offender. And what does that mean, Well, 594 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,799 Speaker 2: people throw around the term pedophile all the time, but 595 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,240 Speaker 2: what they don't understand is pedophilia is actually a diagnosis. 596 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:40,799 Speaker 2: You go to the DSM and you can look up 597 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 2: the criterion to be diagnosed as a pedophile. But it's 598 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:50,359 Speaker 2: somebody who is sexually aroused by pre pubescent children. And 599 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,760 Speaker 2: this guy may be a pedophile, but the broader term 600 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,719 Speaker 2: is preferential child sex offender, meaning that he had a 601 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 2: specific sexual preference. 602 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 3: And this can include the age, the. 603 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 2: Gender, the body type, the personality type, the circumstances, all 604 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,839 Speaker 2: of those things surrounding his victim choice. Because when he's 605 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:20,880 Speaker 2: hunting for victims, he's looking for vulnerability, accessibility, and desirability. 606 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 2: And sometimes when the desirability factor isn't there, in other words, 607 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 2: the person doesn't absolutely fit into that desirability factor. 608 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 3: He'll settle for whatever is available. 609 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 2: But in this case, because he picked patitue girls and 610 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 2: most of them were young teens, that. 611 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:44,800 Speaker 3: Was most likely his preference. 612 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,279 Speaker 2: It's a criminal sexual preference and it's something that he 613 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 2: has embraced in his life. In other words, many people 614 00:35:54,400 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 2: have dark thoughts and desires, but this guy decided I'm. 615 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 3: Going to pursue them. I'm going to hide it. 616 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 2: I'm going to do everything I can to set up 617 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 2: and be prepared for it. I'm going to fantasize about 618 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 2: doing it over and over and over again, and eventually 619 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,360 Speaker 2: I'm going to actually be able to actually act on 620 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 2: my desires. And that's what he did at least these 621 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 2: six times, maybe more. 622 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:29,319 Speaker 8: Clemente says. The next victimology factors to analyze are the 623 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 8: different times and places where he actually abducted these girls. 624 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 2: He's clearly all over the map on that, but he's 625 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:44,320 Speaker 2: in a fairly small geographic location, and his body disposal 626 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 2: sites are as well. And this tells me right away 627 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 2: that this child preferential sex offender is from this area. 628 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,800 Speaker 2: He's not somebody who just passed through and doesn't really 629 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 2: know the area. He's somebody who is actually invisible in 630 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 2: this neighborhood. Nobody sees him as out of place. Everybody 631 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,319 Speaker 2: sees him as belonging, and so it doesn't raise the 632 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:17,319 Speaker 2: alarm that he's there. So he's able to operate with 633 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 2: impunity in these neighborhoods. And that leads me to believe, 634 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 2: if the demographics there are highly concentrated with minorities, that 635 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 2: he is also a minority, and that means he could 636 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 2: be African American, he could be mixed, but he's definitely 637 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 2: seen as someone who is just part of the neighborhood, 638 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 2: doesn't stick out like a sore thumb. 639 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,319 Speaker 8: What about the location where he left the victims. Is 640 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,799 Speaker 8: it significant that he was leaving them by the side 641 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 8: of the freeway. 642 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 2: It is significant, And freeways are interesting because millions of 643 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,360 Speaker 2: people use them, but very few people walk along the 644 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,919 Speaker 2: sides of them, right, so they're very accessible. But they're 645 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 2: also not generally used for foot traffic, and so it's 646 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,960 Speaker 2: very easy to conceal someone just off of a very 647 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 2: very busy highway because nobody usually walks along there. It 648 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 2: means that he one has a car, two knows when 649 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:30,799 Speaker 2: he can get on and off that road without being detected. 650 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 2: Most likely has a job or family situation which allows 651 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 2: him to be out at any hour of the day 652 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 2: or night. Because, believe me, choosing these victims and abducting 653 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,400 Speaker 2: these victims took a long time. He had to be 654 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,160 Speaker 2: out there a long time to get access. 655 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 3: To these particular victims. 656 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,319 Speaker 2: They weren't doing things that they did every day at 657 00:38:56,320 --> 00:39:00,080 Speaker 2: that time. That means he has to be available to 658 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,279 Speaker 2: wait for them to show up and to follow them, 659 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,359 Speaker 2: and then to be vulnerable. So they're not vulnerable while 660 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 2: they're inside a store or with other people. They're vulnerable 661 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,360 Speaker 2: when they're alone. And in one case, for example, where 662 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 2: he abducted a girl coming right outside of a corner 663 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 2: grocery store, he had to be pretty bold because there 664 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:25,000 Speaker 2: were obviously other people around. 665 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 3: It said the. 666 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,080 Speaker 2: Packages and things that she bought were right in front 667 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,319 Speaker 2: of the store, but that it doesn't say if it's 668 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 2: on the sidewalk right outside the glass door, or on 669 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 2: the street, you know, fifty feet away or around the corner. 670 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 3: I don't know what the. 671 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 2: Actual facts are, but he definitely took a risk with 672 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:45,880 Speaker 2: that one. And when you see someone take a great 673 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 2: risk like that, that means the desirability factor is through 674 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 2: the roof. This is exactly who he wanted, and he 675 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 2: was willing to take a great risk to get her. 676 00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:58,680 Speaker 3: So this is important. 677 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,480 Speaker 2: That tells me something in terms of how highly she 678 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,719 Speaker 2: might be ranked on his desirability factor. 679 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,719 Speaker 10: Meaning that this is sort of his ideal. 680 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 2: Yes, it's closest to his ideal. The highest risk that 681 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,080 Speaker 2: he took is going to tell you what he wanted. 682 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:15,919 Speaker 3: The most. 683 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 8: The next detail we looked at was the length of 684 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,840 Speaker 8: time that the killer kept each victim before dumping their bodies. 685 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 3: The first two were the ones that he kept the longest. 686 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:28,920 Speaker 10: Yeah, Carol and Darlinia, right. 687 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,319 Speaker 2: And so the first one, I would think it had 688 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,680 Speaker 2: the most planning involved. This is something he led up 689 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:37,880 Speaker 2: to for a very long period of time. He was 690 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,359 Speaker 2: fantasizing about doing this. Everything was in place, and he 691 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,720 Speaker 2: did what he did, and he planned to keep them 692 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,919 Speaker 2: probably for an extended period of time. But it never 693 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:52,799 Speaker 2: goes as well as they plan. Never, And so when 694 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 2: he gets down to the third victim, it's eight hours later. 695 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 2: The fourth victim, it's three hours later, the fifth victim 696 00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 2: it's six hours later, the seventh victim it's eight hours later. 697 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 2: I think what he found was it's difficult to keep 698 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,520 Speaker 2: someone alive for a time and keep them hidden. He 699 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 2: may have had some change in his circumstances, his relationship 700 00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:21,280 Speaker 2: or his living circumstances, or wherever he kept these girls. 701 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 2: But also he wasn't a killer until he killed his 702 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:30,200 Speaker 2: first victim. It may have taken him longer to form 703 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:34,800 Speaker 2: the intent to actually take their lives. And we see 704 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:42,399 Speaker 2: with Brenda Woodard that she received a tremendous amount of 705 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 2: violence and anger from the offender, and she happened to be. 706 00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:50,720 Speaker 3: The only eighteen year old, the only adult. 707 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,359 Speaker 2: She may have had more wits about her, She may 708 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:59,120 Speaker 2: have been stronger willed, and she must have fought more 709 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 2: than the other. And I think because there was a 710 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:07,680 Speaker 2: ten month gap after that offense, she really affected him 711 00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,840 Speaker 2: what she was able to do and maybe how close 712 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,960 Speaker 2: she was to being able to get away and. 713 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:15,360 Speaker 3: Then ruin everything for him. 714 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,000 Speaker 2: I think that really made him go underground for a 715 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:18,800 Speaker 2: period of time. 716 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,000 Speaker 8: So what are we to make of the note that 717 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:26,160 Speaker 8: was found with Brenda Denise Woodard? This is tantamount to 718 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:31,200 Speaker 8: my insensitivity misspelled to people, especially women. I will admit 719 00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:35,919 Speaker 8: the others when you catch me if you can freeway Phantom. 720 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:36,839 Speaker 3: Well, there are a couple of things about it. 721 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:42,120 Speaker 2: One is that he's obviously loving the moniker. This is 722 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:47,200 Speaker 2: why we tell media outlets do not nickname offenders. 723 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,280 Speaker 3: We don't do it at the FBI, but we. 724 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:55,920 Speaker 2: Do encourage the media to not name offenders, just like 725 00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:59,520 Speaker 2: we tell them not to put a picture and the 726 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,560 Speaker 2: name a school shooter up after they've been caught or killed, 727 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,759 Speaker 2: because What it does is it gives other people who 728 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:11,719 Speaker 2: are like minded the idea that they can become famous too, 729 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,800 Speaker 2: Because many of these offenders don't have a good self image. 730 00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:17,879 Speaker 3: They're actually they feel. 731 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,920 Speaker 2: Terrible about themselves and they're trying to feel more powerful. 732 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,480 Speaker 2: Particularly when you have this kind of offender who's attacking 733 00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:30,799 Speaker 2: petite girls. This guy feels powerless and he wants to 734 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:35,400 Speaker 2: feel powerful. So this guy wanted to communicate because he 735 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,600 Speaker 2: wanted to sort of revel in the fact that he'd 736 00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:42,279 Speaker 2: been given a moniker by the media. You won't hear 737 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:46,280 Speaker 2: me say it, because that is not something I encourage 738 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,680 Speaker 2: at all. Giving him a moniker only feeds his ego 739 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,239 Speaker 2: and can actually embolden him to kill more. 740 00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:55,799 Speaker 3: The next thing I'll say, and this is part of 741 00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:56,960 Speaker 3: the profile. 742 00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:01,400 Speaker 2: Is that it's clear that he had a fairly correct 743 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:03,440 Speaker 2: use of the word tantamount. 744 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:05,719 Speaker 3: I believe he used the word because he wanted to 745 00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:06,960 Speaker 3: impress the readers. 746 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:10,560 Speaker 2: He wanted to show off, and this is something that 747 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:13,160 Speaker 2: he will do in his real life all the time 748 00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:13,839 Speaker 2: because of his. 749 00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:15,040 Speaker 3: Poor self image. 750 00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:18,800 Speaker 2: He feels the need to prove his greatness, and whether 751 00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:24,360 Speaker 2: that's in his vocabulary that he uses or in the 752 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:28,719 Speaker 2: quote conquests that he makes. He wants to prove how 753 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:33,160 Speaker 2: much of a man he is, and this letter, especially 754 00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:37,319 Speaker 2: when he has used these multi syllabic words to show 755 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:41,279 Speaker 2: off and he gets one of them wrong. So I 756 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:43,120 Speaker 2: think I should just launch into the profile. 757 00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:44,719 Speaker 10: Yeah, let's do it. 758 00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:51,239 Speaker 8: Next time. 759 00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:57,160 Speaker 7: On Freeway Phantom, I believe that he's likely short himself, 760 00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,920 Speaker 7: although he has very powerful hands, probably due to the 761 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:02,160 Speaker 7: kind of work he does. 762 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,640 Speaker 2: But I believe he's not scary. He's able to get 763 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:10,040 Speaker 2: close enough to these victims to not scare them away 764 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:11,640 Speaker 2: before he can control them. 765 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:14,680 Speaker 11: One of the things that he said that really made 766 00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:18,000 Speaker 11: sense to me is the fact that he believes that 767 00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:21,319 Speaker 11: this person fantasized about this, especially with the first VIC, 768 00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,680 Speaker 11: and planned it, and that's why he was able to 769 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:25,080 Speaker 11: keep her. 770 00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,560 Speaker 3: A lot of variables play in the closure rate. We 771 00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,239 Speaker 3: live and die. Some people by the street code, some 772 00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,200 Speaker 3: people out there. They know who murdered this person, they 773 00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:38,920 Speaker 3: know who committed this armed robbery, but they won't come forward. 774 00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,959 Speaker 1: Freeway Fantom is a production of iHeart Radio, Tenderfoot TV 775 00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:51,760 Speaker 1: and Black Bar MITZVAH. Our host is CELESE. 776 00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:52,120 Speaker 3: Hilly. 777 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:55,600 Speaker 1: The show is written by Trevor Young, Jamie Albright, and 778 00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:59,080 Speaker 1: Celess Hilly. Executive producers on behalf of Our Heart Radio 779 00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:03,160 Speaker 1: include Matt Frederick and Alex Williams, with supervising producer Trevor Young. 780 00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:07,560 Speaker 1: Executive producers on behalf of Tenderfoot TV include Donald Albright 781 00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:11,520 Speaker 1: and Payne Lindsay, with producers Jamie Albright and Tracy Kaplan. 782 00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,520 Speaker 1: Executive producers on behalf of Black Bar Mitzvah include myself, 783 00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:19,879 Speaker 1: j Ellis and Aaron Bergman, with producer Sidney Fools. Lead 784 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:23,960 Speaker 1: researcher is Jamie Albright. Artwork by Mister Soul two one six, 785 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:28,480 Speaker 1: original music by Makeup and Vanity Set special thanks to 786 00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:32,560 Speaker 1: a teammate, Uta Beck Media and Marketing and the Nord Group. 787 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,400 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV and iHeartMedia, as well as Black Bar Mitzvah 788 00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:39,600 Speaker 1: have increased the reward for information leading to the arrest 789 00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:43,040 Speaker 1: and conviction of the person or persons responsible for their 790 00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:46,200 Speaker 1: freeway fan of murders. The previous reward of up to 791 00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,440 Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty thousand dollars offered by the Metropolitan 792 00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,920 Speaker 1: Police Department has been matched a new total reward of 793 00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:55,880 Speaker 1: up to three hundred thousand dollars is now being offered. 794 00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:59,120 Speaker 1: If you have any information relating to these unsolved crimes, 795 00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,800 Speaker 1: contact the Metropolitan Police Department at area code two zero 796 00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:07,680 Speaker 1: two seven two seven nine zero ninety nine. For more information, 797 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:12,640 Speaker 1: please visit freeway dashfanom dot com. For more podcasts from 798 00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:17,520 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, 799 00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,520 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Thanks for listening.