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Speaker 1: The Michael Barry Show. In my bar at home, I

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Speaker 1: have a picture of antonin Scalia and myself talking in

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Speaker 1: his Supreme Court chambers. And it's a moment that I

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Speaker 1: will never forget, the moment I enjoy looking at, especially

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Speaker 1: after his passing. He does not seem annoyed, Ramon. He's

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Speaker 1: delighted to be there, delighted to be there. We'd had

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Speaker 1: cigars the night before at the University club where I

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Speaker 1: was staying in DC. He and me and Clarence Thomas,

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Speaker 1: and I was a law school student at the time.

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Speaker 1: I was working at a law firm in Washington, d C.

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Speaker 1: And he could tell I was a dork for his

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Speaker 1: writings and for the Supreme Court and the lore of

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Speaker 1: it all. At some point he said, well, you're really

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Speaker 1: into this. Yes, there I am, And he said would

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Speaker 1: you like to come to my chambers?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely? And so rather than just.

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Speaker 1: A high bye and then me going a window, I said,

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Speaker 1: I can come tomorrow. He said, okay, how does four

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Speaker 1: o'clocks out? I said fine, I said, awkward question. Can

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Speaker 1: I bring my wife? She had just graduated law school,

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Speaker 1: she's getting ready to start and she was visiting. He

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Speaker 1: said sure, and I said, second, awkward question, can I

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Speaker 1: bring a photographer? Well, he understood I wanted to save

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Speaker 1: this moment for history, and he did. Anyway, that picture hangs.

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Speaker 2: To this day.

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Speaker 1: This particular lecture that he gave back in twenty thirteen

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Speaker 1: is entitled is capitalism or socialism more conducive to Christian virtue?

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Speaker 2: Just open your mind and.

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Speaker 1: Give this good Catholic Supreme Court justice, great American, you're

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Speaker 1: ear I think you'll like it.

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Speaker 3: Earlier I had the opportunity to ask Jesice Sclea how

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Speaker 3: we could pray for him tonight, and of course he

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Speaker 3: asked that we pray for a on the bench and influence,

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Speaker 3: and we are all in agreement with that. But additionally,

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Speaker 3: he said, pray for my family. He's a real guy.

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Speaker 3: He's a real person. He has nine children and thirty

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Speaker 3: three grandchildren with a thirty fourth on the way, if

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Speaker 3: my numbers are correct. So pray for Justice Scalia, the

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Speaker 3: father and the grandfather. So would you join me, Unlet's

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Speaker 3: ask God's blessing over the evening. Father, we thank you

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Speaker 3: for this wonderful privilege. We thank you for Mark and

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Speaker 3: Becky and their family were so honest and helping us

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Speaker 3: through so many things, and here tonight inviting us into

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Speaker 3: their homes. Yet again, we're so grateful for their hospitality,

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Speaker 3: their kindness to us. We thank you for the privilege

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Speaker 3: to learn something tonight, and we're grateful that Justice Scalia

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Speaker 3: is here. We do pray for his influence and for

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Speaker 3: his leadership and for favor on the bench and as

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Speaker 3: he makes decisions and leads others in the process of discussion,

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Speaker 3: that Lord, you will indeed allow truth to prevail and

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Speaker 3: right to win. Lord, we trust in you to lead

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Speaker 3: our country, to guide us, and we pray over those

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Speaker 3: in high positions with authority, becuse You've instructed us to

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Speaker 3: do so, and tonight it's an honor to pray for

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Speaker 3: this Justice, Justice Scalia. We pray over this evening and

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Speaker 3: his message to us tonight. I know it will challenge

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Speaker 3: us and encourage us. Lord, we want to find you

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Speaker 3: in all of this, and we want to hear a

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Speaker 3: word from you, so may all that's said and done

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Speaker 3: be pleasing to you. That's ultimately our goal. We want

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Speaker 3: your glory and your good. We pray in Jesus' name, Amen.

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Speaker 4: This man is an icon in the legal world. This

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Speaker 4: man was appointed to the bench by President Reagan. But

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Speaker 4: the Good Lord gave this man gifts and abilities, and

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Speaker 4: Justice Clia.

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Speaker 5: Used those long before he took the bench.

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Speaker 4: Graduated number one in his class in high school, Georgetown University, Valedictorian,

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Speaker 4: Harvard Law School, Magna cum Lautie, professionally practiced law, taught law,

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Speaker 4: and has been a justice appointed to the bench by

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Speaker 4: Ronald Reagan. Is the longest serving just this current on

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Speaker 4: the bench. He has influenced the bench in profound ways.

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Speaker 4: He comes to this from a personal perspective of deep faith.

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Speaker 4: Born and raised in the Catholic Christian Church, he has

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Speaker 4: worked tirelessly to see that his children continue in that faith.

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Speaker 4: His son, Paul, is a Catholic priest.

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Speaker 5: Justice Scalia is.

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Speaker 4: Very genuine and deeply convicted in what he believes. As

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Speaker 4: a Supreme Court justice, he doesn't go around in lecture

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Speaker 4: all the time. He has a full time job that

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Speaker 4: is extremely time consuming. And that's before you take into

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Speaker 4: account his marvelous wife, Maureen, their nine children, and their

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Speaker 4: thirty three plus grandchildren, seven of which Michael's responsible for.

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Speaker 4: If I'm not mistaken, there are three books by Justice

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Speaker 4: Scalia in our library.

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Speaker 5: You're welcome to get.

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Speaker 4: I will tell you, as a last word before he

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Speaker 4: takes the pulpit that you have cards that you can

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Speaker 4: write questions on. We won't have a lot of questioning time,

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Speaker 4: but we will have about ten or fifteen minutes perhaps

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Speaker 4: of question and answer after he's through. I asked him today,

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Speaker 4: is there anything I should say is off limits? He

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Speaker 4: said no, If I don't want to answer it, I won't.

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Speaker 4: I'm a lawyer, and in legal tradition, when a justice

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Speaker 4: enters the room, we all rise.

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Speaker 5: So would you rise for justice?

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Speaker 2: Scalia? II, can please perceive it?

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Speaker 6: My goodness, you may be a lawyer, but this is

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Speaker 6: not a courtroom. I don't think i've ever I've ever

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Speaker 6: spoken from a pulpit before, and it brings to mind

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Speaker 6: a story that I heard from, my goodness, a friend

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Speaker 6: I had many years ago when I was a practicing

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Speaker 6: lawyer in Cleveland. His name was Sherwood Sugden. He was

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Speaker 6: a Canadian and a Presbyterian.

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Speaker 2: He used to.

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Speaker 6: Bemoan the wishy washy current state of the Presbyterian Church. Esay,

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Speaker 6: when I grew up in Canada, out in the wilds

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Speaker 6: of Canada, we had a real Presbyterian church, and as

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Speaker 6: He described that the minister would get up, glare down

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Speaker 6: at the congregation and begin his sermon, Ah, so you're

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Speaker 6: back again, how are you are your worms?

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Speaker 2: And it would and it would go from there, you.

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Speaker 6: Know, good, good old Scott's Presbyterian hellfire and brimstone. Well,

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Speaker 6: I am not going to talk about hell fire and brimstone.

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Speaker 6: I am, however, speaking to a Christian group, and I'm

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Speaker 6: speaking as a Christian, not of course, as a federal judge.

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Speaker 6: Some years ago I was invited to give a lecture

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Speaker 6: at the Gregorianum, the famed Jesuit school of theology in Rome.

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Speaker 6: The topic I was asked to address was the following,

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Speaker 6: is the political philosophy of the left or of the

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Speaker 6: right more compatible with the public good? The Jesuits, I suspect,

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Speaker 6: believed the former. It was still the age of liberation

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Speaker 6: theology in South America. The remarks I gave were essentially

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Speaker 6: as follows, altered slightly to be more appropriate for an

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Speaker 6: American rather than a European audience.

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Speaker 2: Is the political.

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Speaker 6: Philosophy of the left or of the right more compatible

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Speaker 6: with the public good? If there was ever a topic

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Speaker 6: that cried out for a definition of.

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Speaker 2: Terms, it is this one. Right and left.

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Speaker 6: Right wing and left wing are terms that have virtually

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Speaker 6: no fixed meeting in American political discourse, except that they

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Speaker 6: all cannote a degree of extremism. Both categories of the

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Speaker 6: term are pejorative. Thus we have an American political commentary

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Speaker 6: that familiar villain, the right wing extremist, and in more

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Speaker 6: recent years, that ominous political force, the Christian right. The

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Speaker 6: terms left wing extremist and Christian left would have similar

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Speaker 6: overtones of foreboding if they were ever used by the

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Speaker 6: American media, but they are not, which is an interesting phenomenon.

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Speaker 6: Once one gets beyond on their pejorative content, it is

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Speaker 6: hard to pin down the meaning of right and left

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Speaker 6: in American political usage. Sometimes the terms are used to denote, respectively,

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Speaker 6: statists on the one hand, and libertarians on the other,

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Speaker 6: those who favor strong and authoritarian government versus those who

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Speaker 6: favor a high degree of individual freedom. In this sense,

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Speaker 6: Richard Nixon would be a man of the right and Eugene.

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Speaker 2: McCarthy a man of the left.

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Speaker 6: But if that were the only meaning of the terms,

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Speaker 6: both Augustus Pinochet and Fidel Castro would have to.

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Speaker 2: Be referred to as right wingers.

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Speaker 6: Thus, there is a second, quite different connotation of the terms,

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Speaker 6: which distinguish between laisse fair capitalists and socialists. This is

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Speaker 6: not only different from it is sometimes the opposite of

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Speaker 6: the first connotation, since those who favor a high degree

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Speaker 6: of individual freedom in other matters and would be identified

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Speaker 6: with the left under the first connotation often favor a

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Speaker 6: high degree of individual freedom and economic matters as well,

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Speaker 6: and hence would under this second connotation be called members

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Speaker 6: of the right. Thus, the American Libertarian Party is a

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Speaker 6: party of the left under the first connotation, and a

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Speaker 6: party of the right under the second. Yet a third

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Speaker 6: meaning of right and left is much more relativistic. It

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Speaker 6: draws a distinction between those who favor the status quo

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Speaker 6: and those who favor change, between conservatives and progressives. Since

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Speaker 6: over most of the past century, change has been moving

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Speaker 6: from a status quo of capitalism towards socialism, this third

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Speaker 6: connotation tends to produce the same.

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Speaker 2: Results as the second.

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Speaker 6: Castro can be called a man of the left in

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Speaker 6: both of these senses, But if and when the tide

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Speaker 6: of history moves in reverse, the equivalence between the two

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Speaker 6: connotations disappears. The old line communists in Russia who resist

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Speaker 6: the change towards democracy and capitalism are referred to in

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Speaker 6: the American press, believe it or not, as the right.

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Speaker 6: And finally, right and left may connote a distinction between

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Speaker 6: nationalism and one worldism. This may be merely one aspect

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Speaker 6: of the first connotation I mentioned, That is, those who

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Speaker 6: favor a strong authoritarian government tend to be nationalists. But

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Speaker 6: it really must be an entirely separate connotation, because otherwise

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Speaker 6: I can think of no other basis for calling the

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Speaker 6: Nazis a party of the right and Communists a.

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Speaker 2: Party of the left.

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Speaker 6: They're both authoritarian, they're both socialist, and they are both untraditional,

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Speaker 6: but the Communists are internationalists. For purposes of my remarks today,

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Speaker 6: I am assuming the second meaning of right and left,

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Speaker 6: the meaning that refers to the difference between capitalism and socialism.

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Speaker 6: I take that approach because that is the only one

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Speaker 6: of the dichotomies I have mentioned that is the subject.

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Speaker 2: Of widespread current debate.

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Speaker 6: In these early years of the twenty first century, few

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Speaker 6: have been urging a return to authoritarianism, vigorous nationalism, or traditionalism.

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Speaker 6: Whereas the debate between capitalism and socialism continues. I must

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Speaker 6: make a second clarification about the subject of my remarks.

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Speaker 6: In the title asks whether the right or the left

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Speaker 6: is more compatible with the common good. I have chosen

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Speaker 6: to interpret the common good to mean the Christian common good. Thus,

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Speaker 6: I take that system to be conducive to the common good,

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Speaker 6: which is conducive to virtue, as Christianity understands virtue and sanctification.

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Speaker 6: I assume that this is the meaning of the common

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Speaker 6: good that the organizers of this conference had in mind.

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Speaker 6: The Gregorianum, being, as I understand it, a school of theology,

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Speaker 6: not of government or economics. Having finally define my topic,

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Speaker 6: the first thing I wish to say about it is

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Speaker 6: that I do not believe it is terribly relevant. That

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Speaker 6: is to say, I do not believe that a Christian

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Speaker 6: ought to choose his form of government on the basis

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Speaker 6: of which will be most conducive to his faith, any

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Speaker 6: more than he ought to choose his tooth paste on

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Speaker 6: that basis. To be sure, there are certain prohibitions. A

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Speaker 6: Christian should not support a government that suppresses the faith

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Speaker 6: or one that sanctions the taking of innocent human life,

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Speaker 6: just as a Christian should not wear immodest clothes. But

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Speaker 6: the test of good government, like the test of well

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Speaker 6: tailored clothes, is assuredly not whether it helps you save

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Speaker 6: your soul. Government is not meant for saving souls, but

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Speaker 6: for protecting life and property and assuring the conditions for

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Speaker 6: physical prosperity. Its responsibility is the here, not the hereafter,

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Speaker 6: and the needs of the two sometimes diverge. It may

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Speaker 6: well be, for example, that a governmental system which keeps

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Speaker 6: its citizens in relative poverty will produce more saints the rich,

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Speaker 6: as Christ said, have a hearted time getting to heaven.

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Speaker 6: But that would be a bad government. Nonetheless, this recognition

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Speaker 6: of the separate spheres of church and state is not

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Speaker 6: just the teaching of the First Amendment to.

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Speaker 2: The United States Constitution.

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Speaker 6: It is also, I think, the teaching of Jesus Christ,

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Speaker 6: who spoke of rendering to Caesar the things that are Caesar's,

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Speaker 6: and who is not regarded as having indicated any preference

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Speaker 6: about government, except one he did not want the people

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Speaker 6: to make him king. If I were to engage in

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Speaker 6: the search for the form of government most conducive to Christianity, however,

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Speaker 6: I would certainly.

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Speaker 2: Not settle upon the candidate that seems to have.

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Speaker 6: Such a great attraction for modern Catholic thinkers, and I

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Speaker 6: think most modern Christians to wit socialism. It is hard

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Speaker 6: to understand that attraction. Surely it does not rest upon

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Speaker 6: the teachings of experience. I know of no country in

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Speaker 6: which the churches have grown fuller as the governments have

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Speaker 6: moved leftward. The churches of Europe are empty. The most

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Speaker 6: religious country in the West, by all standards, belief in God,

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Speaker 6: church membership, church attendance is that bastion of capitalism least

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Speaker 6: eluted by socialism the United States. When I say least

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Speaker 6: eluded by socialism, you must understand that I say it

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Speaker 6: in a modern context in which we are all socialists

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Speaker 6: in the United States. That battle was fought and decided

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Speaker 6: with a new deal. No one, even in the most

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Speaker 6: conservative court of American society, now denies that there should

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Speaker 6: be a so called safety net provided by the government

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Speaker 6: for our citizens. The only real argument is over how

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Speaker 6: many services that safety net should provide and how poor

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Speaker 6: must one be in order to qualify. Few of us

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Speaker 6: even understand anymore what a truly non socialist mentality was like.

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Speaker 6: I happened to encounter it by accident many years ago,

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Speaker 6: when I was a young law professor doing research for

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Speaker 6: an article on sovereign immunity, the legal doctrine which says

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Speaker 6: that a state cannot be sued without its consent. I

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Speaker 6: came across a debate in the Massachusetts legislature during the

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Speaker 6: seventeenth century concerning a proposed bill that would provide compensation

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Speaker 6: to a woman who had been seriously injured through the

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Speaker 6: negligence of one of the agents of.

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Speaker 2: The state, a policeman or a fire or whatever.

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Speaker 6: Those members of the Massachusetts legislature opposing the legislation argued

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Speaker 6: that they had no right, that it was morally wrong

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Speaker 6: to use public funds for private benefit for a purpose

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Speaker 6: that did not benefit the public at large, because of

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Speaker 6: the doctrine of sovereign immunity. They said, the Commonwealth of

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Speaker 6: Massachusetts owed this woman nothing in law, and to agree

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Speaker 6: to pay her out of public funds money that was

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Speaker 6: not legally owed was in effect, to use public funds

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Speaker 6: for a private gift. And this, I point out, was

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Speaker 6: a woman who had been injured by the commonwealth. You

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Speaker 6: can imagine what their attitude would have been towards dispensing

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Speaker 6: public funds to the poor.

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Speaker 2: In the United States.

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Speaker 6: A remnant of that non socialist attitude lasted into the

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Speaker 6: present century. Our federal count Institution, you may recall, gives

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Speaker 6: Congress not a general power to expend funds, but only

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Speaker 6: the power to expend funds quote for the general welfare

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Speaker 6: close quote. Until the triumph of the New Deal, there

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Speaker 6: were many who thought that that text prohibited the expenditure

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Speaker 6: of funds for any private assistance, neither to the rich

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Speaker 6: nor to the poor.

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Speaker 2: But that fight, as I have said, is over.

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Speaker 6: We now believe that any expenditure for any citizen is

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Speaker 6: an expenditure for the general welfare, whether to the poor

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Speaker 6: such as food staff recipients, or to the middle class,

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Speaker 6: or even to the fairly well to do, such as

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Speaker 6: the victims of a tornado in Florida, or even to

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Speaker 6: the downright rich, such as the shareholders of Chrysler. All

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Speaker 6: of these are now regarded as entirely proper objects of

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Speaker 6: the state's beneficence. The allure of socialism for the Christian,

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Speaker 6: I think, is that it means well, it is or

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Speaker 6: appears to be altruistic. It promises assistance from the state

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Speaker 6: for the poor and public provision of all the necessities

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Speaker 6: of life, from maternity care to geriatric care, and from

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Speaker 6: kindergarten through university. Capitalism, on the other hand, promises nothing

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Speaker 6: from the state except the opportunity to succeed or fail.

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Speaker 6: Adam Smith points unabashedly to the fact that the baker

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Speaker 6: does not provide bread out of the goodness of his art,

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Speaker 6: but to make a profit. How uninspiring. Yet if you

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Speaker 6: reflect upon it, you will see that the socialistic message

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Speaker 6: is not necessarily Christian, capitalist message not necessarily Unchristian. The

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Speaker 6: issue is not whether there should be provision for the poor,

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Speaker 6: but rather the degree to which that provision should be

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Speaker 6: made through the coercive power of the state. Christ said,

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Speaker 6: after all, that you should give your goods to the poor,

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Speaker 6: not that you should force someone else to give his.

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Speaker 6: Bear in mind that in this discussion I am not

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Speaker 6: arguing about whether socialism is good or bad as a

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Speaker 6: system of government. If private charity does not suffice to

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Speaker 6: meet the needs of the poor, or if we do

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Speaker 6: not want the poor to have to regard themselves as.

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Speaker 2: The object of charity, or if we.

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Speaker 6: Even wish to go beyond merely assisting the poor and

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Speaker 6: want to redistribute the wealth of the rich to the

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Speaker 6: middle class, socialism may be a better way to meet

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Speaker 6: those particular worldly needs, but that can be decided on

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Speaker 6: the economic and secular merits of the matter. The question

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Speaker 6: I am asking is whether Christian faith must incline us

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Speaker 6: towards that system, and the answer.

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Speaker 2: I think is no.

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Speaker 6: Christ did not preach a chicken in every pot or

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Speaker 6: the elimination of poverty in our time. Those are worldly

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Speaker 6: governmental goals. If they were his objectives, he certainly devoted

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Speaker 6: little of his time and talent to achieving them.

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Speaker 2: Feeding the hungry multitudes.

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Speaker 6: Only a couple of times, as I recall, and running

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Speaker 6: away from the crowds who wanted to put him on

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Speaker 6: the throne, whereas would have had an opportunity to engage

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Speaker 6: in some real redistribution of wealth. His message was not

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Speaker 6: the need to eliminate hunger, or misery or or misfortune,

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Speaker 6: but rather the need for each individual to love and

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Speaker 6: help the.

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Speaker 2: Hungry, the miserable, and the unfortunate. To the extent that

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Speaker 2: state takes upon itself one of.

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Speaker 6: The corporal works of mercy that could and would have

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Speaker 6: been undertaken privately, it deprives individuals of an opportunity for sanctification,

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Speaker 6: and deprives the body of Christ of an occasion for

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Speaker 6: the interchange.

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Speaker 2: Of love among its members.

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Speaker 6: I wonder to what extent the decimation of women's religious

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Speaker 6: orders throughout the West is attributable to the governmentalization of charity.

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Speaker 6: Consider how many orphanages, hospitals, schools, and homes for the

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Speaker 6: elderly used to be provided by orders of nuns. They

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Speaker 6: are almost all gone, as are the nuns who ran them.

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Speaker 6: The state now provides pays for these services through salaried

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Speaker 6: social workers. Even purely individual charity must surely have been affected.

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Speaker 6: What need for me to give a beggar a handout?

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Speaker 6: Do I not pay taxes for government food stamps and

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Speaker 6: municipally run shelters and soup kitchens. The man asking me

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Speaker 6: for a dollar probably wants it for liquor. There is,

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Speaker 6: of course, neither love nor merit in the taxes I

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Speaker 6: pay for those services. I pay them because I have to.

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Speaker 6: The Governmentalization of charity affects not just the donor, but

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Speaker 6: also the recipient. What was once asked as a favor

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Speaker 6: is now demanded as an entitlement. When I was young,

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Speaker 6: there used to be an expression applied to a lazy person.

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Speaker 2: My parents used it a lot.

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Speaker 6: He thinks the world owes him a living. But the

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Speaker 6: teaching of welfare socialism is that the world does indeed

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Speaker 6: owe everyone a living. This belief must affect the character

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Speaker 6: of welfare recipients, and not, I suggest for the better,

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Speaker 6: or at least not for the better. In the distinctively

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Speaker 6: Christian view of things, Christ's special love for the poor

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Speaker 6: was attributable to one quality that they possessed in abundance,

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Speaker 6: meekness and humility. It is humbling to be an objective charity,

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Speaker 6: which is why mendicant nuns and friars used to beg

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Speaker 6: The transformation of charity into legal entitlement has produced donors

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Speaker 6: without love and recipients without gratitude. It has also produced

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Speaker 6: a change in the product that is distributed. Most particularly

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Speaker 6: and most relevantly for purposes of the present discussion, social

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Speaker 6: services distributed by the state in this country at least

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Speaker 6: cannot be intermingled with Christian teaching or even increasingly with

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Speaker 6: Christian morality. They do not say the Angelus in public orfriages,

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Speaker 6: there are no crucifixes on the walls of public hospitals,

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Speaker 6: and the Ten Commandments are not posted in public schools.

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Speaker 6: The religiously driven and religiously funded social welfare movements of

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Speaker 6: the nineteenth century sought to achieve not merely the alleviation

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Speaker 6: of poverty and hardship, but also what was called moral uplift.

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Speaker 6: Of course, that is no part of the function of

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Speaker 6: state administered social welfare.

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Speaker 2: Today.

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Speaker 6: State paid social worker whose job is to see to

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Speaker 6: the distribution of welfare funds to those who are legally

384
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Speaker 6: entitled to them, is not cannot legally be concerned with

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Speaker 6: improving not only the diet but also the virtue of

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Speaker 6: her clients, which is the coldly commercial terminology that welfare

387
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Speaker 6: bureaucracies use. It is quite simply none of her business.

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Speaker 6: Perhaps the clearest effects of the expansion of the state

389
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Speaker 6: accompanied by the contraction of the church are to be

390
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Speaker 6: found in the field of primary and secondary education. A

391
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Speaker 6: relatively small proportion of Americans are nowadays educated in religious schools.

392
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Speaker 6: Catholic schools are much less numerous than they were in

393
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Speaker 6: mid century. As the costs of primary and secondary education

394
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Speaker 6: have risen, it has become very difficult for churches to

395
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Speaker 6: run a system competitive with the tax funded public schools. Simultaneously,

396
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 6: litigation has caused the public schools to eliminate all religiously

397
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Speaker 6: doctrinal materials from their curriculum that is good and proper

398
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Speaker 6: under our American system, which forbids the official establishment of

399
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Speaker 6: any sect but the non sectarian states increasing monopoly over

400
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 6: primary and secondary education can hardly be considered beneficial to Christianity,

401
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 6: whereas such overtly religious texts as The Pilgrim's Progress.

402
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Speaker 2: Remember the Pilgrim's Progress.

403
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Speaker 6: Were once the staple of the American school child's education.

404
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Speaker 6: Religious instruction nowadays, if received at all, is obtained in one.

405
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Speaker 2: Evening a week.

406
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Speaker 6: In confraternity classes are on Sunday. In more recent years,

407
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Speaker 6: as society has become more and more diverse in its

408
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 6: views of morality, not just religion, but morality, the state's

409
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 6: control of education deprives children not only of Christian doctrine,

410
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Speaker 6: but even of essentially Christian moral formation. Schools distribute condoms,

411
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Speaker 6: provide advice on birth control and abortion, and teach that

412
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Speaker 6: homosexual conduct must not.

413
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Speaker 2: Be regarded as sinful or even abnormal.

414
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 6: Again, it is not my place or my purpose to

415
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 6: criticize these developments, only to observe that they do not

416
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Speaker 6: suggest that expanding the role of government as socialism does,

417
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Speaker 6: is good for Christianity.

418
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Speaker 2: Finally, I may mention that even.

419
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Speaker 6: The seeming Christian virtue of socialism, that it means well

420
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 6: and seeks to help the poor, even that seeming Christian

421
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 6: virtue may be great exaggerated. It is true in the

422
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 6: United States, and I believe it is true in all

423
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Speaker 6: of the Western democracies, that the vast bulk of social

424
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 6: spending does not go to the poor, but rather to

425
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Speaker 6: the middle class, which also happens to be the class

426
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Speaker 6: most numerous.

427
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Speaker 2: At the poles.

428
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 6: The most expensive entitlement programs social security and medicare, for example,

429
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 6: overwhelmingly benefit those who are not in dire financial straits.

430
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Speaker 6: So one may plausibly argue that welfare democracy does not

431
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 6: really have even the Christian virtue of altruism. The majority

432
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Speaker 6: does not say to the rich, give your money to

433
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Speaker 6: the poor, but rather give your money to us. Just

434
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Speaker 6: as I believe the left is not necessarily endowed with

435
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 6: Christian virtue, so also I believe the right is not

436
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 6: necessarily bereft of it. Less a fair capitalism, like socialism,

437
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 6: speaks to the degree of involvement of the state in

438
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:12,239
Speaker 6: the economic life of the society. Like socialism, also, it

439
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 6: does not speak to the nature of the human soul.

440
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 6: There have been greedy and avaricious capitalists, but there have

441
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 6: also been generous and considerate ones, just as there have

442
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 6: been altruistic and self deprecating socialists, but have also been brutal.

443
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 2: And despotic ones.

444
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 6: The cardinal sin of capitalism is greed, but the cardinal

445
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 6: sin of socialism is power. I'm not sure there is

446
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 6: a clear choice between those evils. While I would not

447
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 6: argue that capitalism as an economic system is inherently more

448
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 6: Christian than socialism, at least as long as we're talking

449
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 6: about a form of socialism that permits the acquisition and

450
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 6: ownership of property, it does seem to me that capitalism

451
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 6: is more dependent upon Christianity than socialism is. For in

452
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 6: order for capitalism to work, in order for it to

453
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 6: produce a good and a stable society, the traditional Christian

454
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 6: virtues are essential. Since in the capitalist system, each individual

455
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 6: has more freedom of action, each individual also has more

456
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 6: opportunity to do evil. Without widespread practice of such Christian

457
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 6: virtues as honesty, self denial, and charity towards others, a capitalist.

458
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 2: System will be intolerable.

459
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 6: Let me conclude, as I began with a disclaimer the

460
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 6: burden of my remarks is not that a government of

461
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 6: the right is more christ Like, only that there is

462
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 6: no reason to believe that government.

463
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 2: Of the left is. To tell you the truth, I

464
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 2: do not think.

465
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 6: Jesus Christ cares very much what sort of economic or

466
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 6: political system we live under.

467
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 2: He certainly displayed little.

468
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 6: Interest in that subject during his life among us, as

469
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 6: did his apostles. Accordingly, we should select our economic and

470
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 6: political systems on the basis of what seems to produce

471
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 6: the greatest material good for the society as all, or

472
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 6: if you wish for the most needy segment of society

473
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 6: and leave theology out of it.

474
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 2: Raising the minimum.

475
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 6: Wage, for example, which is a perennial political proposal in Washington,

476
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 6: is a good or a bad idea, depending upon whether

477
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 6: it is likely to produce good or bad economic consequences.

478
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 6: It has nothing to do with the Kingdom of God.

479
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you.

480
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 4: I want to tell you this is an incredibly rare

481
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 4: opportunity to have heard a gentleman of this stature, in

482
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 4: this position in American life and culture come speak on

483
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,879
Speaker 4: a subject area outside of of what he does as

484
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 4: a judge is quite amazing. So these are coming in.

485
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 4: I've got to take these off to be able to

486
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 4: read them. And let's see, how is the recent Supreme

487
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 4: Court ruling on well, okay, he's got to be careful

488
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 4: how we answers some of these questions.

489
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 5: There's at a there's not their rules. Well, you're a

490
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 5: big boy.

491
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 4: How's the recent Supreme Court ruling on Doma going to

492
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 4: impact the church vis a v. Mandatory performance of wedding?

493
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 6: Oh?

494
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 2: I technically that.

495
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 6: Ruling has nothing to do with uh with with the

496
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 6: issue of whether the states or or or the churches

497
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 6: have to uh honor uh single sex marriages. It has

498
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 6: nothing to do with that. It just it just deals with,

499
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 6: uh what when when federal statutes refer to marriage, what

500
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 6: does that refer to? Doma simply said that in federal

501
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 6: statute it refers only to a marriage between a man

502
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,720
Speaker 6: and a woman, and Doma said, no, that's wrong.

503
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 2: It now refers I I I.

504
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 6: It refers to whatever unions were lawful under.

505
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 2: The state that concluded them. It has nothing to do

506
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 2: with the.

507
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 6: Whether the states must recognize uh same sex marriage. Although,

508
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 6: as I said in my descent, in the case that's

509
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 6: the shoe that next drop. I mean, I think it's

510
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,399
Speaker 6: it's coming. But do Doma doesn't do it.

511
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 4: Have you ever noticed that positions of justices on a

512
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 4: particular subject change or become more liberal the longer they're

513
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 4: on the bench? I will say, for this justice has been.

514
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 2: On, are you It's demonstrably false.

515
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 6: I've been there longer than anybody, and I'm I don't

516
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 6: think I'm any further left than I was.

517
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 2: But no, but it is.

518
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 6: It is a common phenomenon that when one arrives at

519
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 6: the Supreme Court, one tends to think that the court

520
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 6: or to decide more of the crucial issues for society

521
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 6: and not depends so much on the text of an

522
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:57,439
Speaker 6: old constitution. It's natural enough, I suppose, but I think

523
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 6: it is. It is certainly a true phenomenon. John Paul Stevens,

524
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 6: for example, was you know, quite a what should I say,

525
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 6: non activist judge when he was when he was on

526
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 6: the Seventh Circuit and did not turn out that way

527
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 6: on the Supreme Court.

528
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,280
Speaker 4: We have so many phenomenal questions. I'm limiting these ones

529
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:29,760
Speaker 4: that I'm interested in. I'm sorry about that. And he's

530
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 4: got no warning. Okay, so this is like not fair

531
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 4: to him. Of all the opinions you've written. Do any

532
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 4: come to mind that you're particularly proud of or that

533
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 4: are your favorites?

534
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:46,359
Speaker 2: Well, you know, my favorite dissent is probably.

535
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 6: One pretty early on. I was the sole dissenter in

536
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 6: the case deciding whether the Independent Council was constitutional.

537
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 2: I said that he she wasn't Alicia Morrison.

538
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 6: Seven justices thought the opposite. A few years later, the

539
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 6: Court did one hundred and eighty degree turn on the

540
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 6: crucial issue in that case, whether an independent Council is

541
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 6: an inferior officer or not. You don't have to know

542
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:31,320
Speaker 6: why that's important. So I think I was sort of vindicated.

543
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 6: I wrote that later opinion, by the way, but the

544
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 6: author of Marsen versus Olsen joined it. Don't ask me

545
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:46,439
Speaker 6: how bang you know? For majority opinions, I guess the one, well,

546
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 6: they're too I'm proud of. One is the Heller opinion,

547
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 6: which was Second Amendment, the first opinion of the Supreme

548
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:57,399
Speaker 6: Court that really decided whether the Second Amendment.

549
00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:59,760
Speaker 2: Conferred a private right to keeping bare arms.

550
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 6: And also a case whose name I always forget, that

551
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 6: restored the confrontation clause to its original meaning. It Well,

552
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 6: i'll talk about that because it says something about it.

553
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:20,840
Speaker 6: Some people think that when you depart from the original

554
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 6: meaning of the Constitution, you're, oh, you're always creating greater freedom.

555
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 6: You know, there's no harm done. That's not true. I mean,

556
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 6: if you ignore the original meaning of the constitutions, sometimes

557
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 6: you'll create more freedom.

558
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:35,280
Speaker 2: Sometimes you'll eliminate prior ones.

559
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 6: And what we had done with the confrontation clause, which

560
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:43,800
Speaker 6: guarantees in all criminal prosecutions that the accused shall enjoy

561
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,399
Speaker 6: the right to confront the witnesses against it.

562
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 2: No doubt what that meant.

563
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,359
Speaker 6: It meant you had to bring the witnesses into court.

564
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 6: You could not use hearsay. You could not bring somebody

565
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 6: come in and say, well, I wasn't there, but Joe

566
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 6: was there, and he told me, no, you can't do it.

567
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 6: You have to have the opportunity to cross examine the

568
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:05,399
Speaker 6: person who's sending you to prison.

569
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 2: About what.

570
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 6: Twenty five years ago we just kicked that aside and

571
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 6: said in a case called Nice States versus Roberts, that

572
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 6: all the confrontation clause means is that any hearsay you

573
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 6: introduce has to be reliable hearsay. Well, I wrote the

574
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 6: opinion that overruled that maybe it wasn't about eight years

575
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 6: ago or so, and so the confrontation clause now has

576
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 6: the meaning it had at the beginning.

577
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 2: I'm very proud of that opinion.

578
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 4: You are so persuasive and logical. Why aren't you able

579
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,320
Speaker 4: to persuade your liberal colleagues.

580
00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 2: Well on most of these these issues on which we disagree.

581
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 2: It's fundamental stuff.

582
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 6: I mean, it's about whether you think the Constitution bears

583
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 6: its original meaning or you think it changes. All My

584
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 6: colleagues have thought about this for years. I'm not going

585
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 6: to change their mind on those fundamental questions. If they

586
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 6: think it's a morphing constitution, that it means whatever they

587
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 6: think it ought to mean today, they're not going to

588
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 6: change that.

589
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:33,919
Speaker 5: What my god?

590
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,320
Speaker 6: They know, yes, originalism. Why didn't I think of that before?

591
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 6: We don't even talk.

592
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 2: About the fundamental stuff like that? Don't even talk about it.

593
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 6: These guys have had their philosophy for you know, thirty

594
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:51,800
Speaker 6: years at least.

595
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 2: I'm not about to change their basic philosophy.

596
00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 6: Now on you know, on most of the real law case,

597
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 6: you know, most of what we do believe it.

598
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:05,839
Speaker 2: Sometimes people don't say, Justice, Glee, why do you have

599
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 2: to be.

600
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 6: A lawyer, to be on the Supreme Court. The Constitution

601
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 6: doesn't say so. It doesn't because they think. Most of

602
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:17,760
Speaker 6: the time, you know, we're contemplating our navel.

603
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 2: Should there be a right to die? Should there be

604
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 2: a right to abortion?

605
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 6: You know, you know something that Joe Sixpack knows the

606
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,320
Speaker 6: answer to as well as I do. It has nothing

607
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 6: to do with anything you learned at Harvard Law School,

608
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 6: nothing whatever. But in fact, most of the time we

609
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 6: are not doing that garbage. Most of the time we

610
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 6: are doing real law. We're figuring out the meaning of

611
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 6: the Bankruptcy Code, the Internal Revenue Code. That is hard

612
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 6: and really dull stuff, and only a lawyer can understand it. So,

613
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,839
Speaker 6: you know, if people understood that, they would never ask

614
00:42:58,880 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 6: that question.

615
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 5: Of course, Yeah, do you have a favorite opera?

616
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 2: Oh, that's that's a very no.

617
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 6: I can't say have a single favorite om like a

618
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 6: lot of different opera.

619
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:11,800
Speaker 5: Do you still sing in your church choir?

620
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 2: I don't, uh.

621
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 6: When I was a professor, I sang in a in

622
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,360
Speaker 6: a chorus as late.

623
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:25,879
Speaker 2: As when I was on the Court of Appeals. Before

624
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,319
Speaker 2: I got a pointed in the Supreme Court. It's called

625
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 2: the Wareham Corral.

626
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 6: We sang at the National Cathedral, at the Smithsonian other

627
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 6: places it was, and I miss it when I was

628
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 6: When I was a professor at the University of Chicago,

629
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 6: my next door neighbor was the director of the Rockefeller

630
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 6: Chapel Choir. Those of you who know the University of Chicago,

631
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 6: Rockefeller Chapel.

632
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 2: Is a cathedral.

633
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,720
Speaker 6: I mean it's around, you know, twenty times the size

634
00:43:53,760 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 6: of your little church here, and and it had an

635
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:10,800
Speaker 6: endowed choir. Sometimes there were more people in the choir

636
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 6: than there were in the congregation, to tell you the truth,

637
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 6: but it was a wonderful choir. And I would go

638
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 6: there Sunday morning and sing Palestrina William Byrd motes like this,

639
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 6: magnificent choral religious music from fifteen hundred years after which

640
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 6: I would go down the street to Mass and hear

641
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 6: some clowns drum a guitar and sing God is Love

642
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 6: Kumbaya or something like that.

643
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 2: It used to rip me up.

644
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 4: And while you're on the subject, would you please evaluate

645
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 4: the condition of the Catholic Church of the US.

646
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:05,360
Speaker 2: Evaluate the condition it's doing. Okay, it's been around a

647
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 2: long time, you know.

648
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 5: All right.

649
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 4: I've got about four more that I'll run out here.

650
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 4: Too serious, too less a less serious? Are you a

651
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 4: Redskins fan?

652
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 6: No, I'm not even much of a football fan to

653
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 6: the extent I am.

654
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 2: I hate the Redskins. In fact, I always roote for Dallas.

655
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 4: How and and this may be something you have don't

656
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 4: want to answer. How would you handle siria? Now I

657
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 4: shouldn't talk about Okay, now here's the education I.

658
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 6: Have strong views on it.

659
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 5: Fair enough, here is a legal education question.

660
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 4: All right, what is the constitutional basis for the principle

661
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Speaker 4: of star a decisive? Does it play inherently to the socialists?

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00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 6: Well, you know, the constitutional basis for it is that

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00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 6: it is impossible to run a judicial system without it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you can't reinvent the wheel with every case.

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Speaker 6: I mean a lawyer gets up and says, your honor,

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00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 6: you know this statute is unconstitutional because.

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00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 7: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, counsel, you say the

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00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 7: statute enacted by Congress is unconstant. Do you think we

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00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:49,320
Speaker 7: have the authority to declare a statute enacted by Congress unconstitutional?

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00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 2: Marbarie versus Madison. You're on our eighteenth I know, I know,

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00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 2: But was it right? Yeah? You're going to go into

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00:46:56,600 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 2: that all over again. You cannot possibly.

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00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:05,840
Speaker 6: UH revisit every every legal holding of of of of

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00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 6: past courts. And UH that's that's the basis for it.

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00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 6: The Constitution implicitly, UH expects the courts to function in

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00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 6: a manner that is not nuts okay, Uh. And that's

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00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 6: a very technical explanation, but.

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00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:37,720
Speaker 5: But it leads very well to our last question.

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00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:42,719
Speaker 4: What UH stands out in your mind as one of

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00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 4: the greatest miscarriages of constitutional justice.

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00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 2: You've seen during your tenure?

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00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 6: WHOA, WHOA?

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00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 2: What's the worst?

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00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 4: MH.

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00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 2: I've never been asked that question. When is the worst?

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00:47:58,120 --> 00:47:58,759
Speaker 5: This may be a.

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00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 2: Well many out of dates.

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00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 6: Uh, oh, I I would I. I. I can tell

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00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:15,319
Speaker 6: you an area in particular, the the area of law. I.

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00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:17,800
Speaker 6: I wrote this before I became a judge, even I

691
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 6: I said that the most disreputable area.

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00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 2: Of our law is the establishment clause.

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00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 6: And it has remained that we are Our opinions just

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00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 6: in that field make no sense. They still don't make

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00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 6: any sense, and we don't seem to be able to

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00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:36,240
Speaker 6: bring any any coherence out of them.

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00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 4: But the non lawyers in the group the establishment.

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00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 6: Clause, Congress shall make no law uh, respecting an establishment

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00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 6: of religion.

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00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 2: It's it's the clause that that that's.

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00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 6: Always invoked when uh uh people want to tear down

702
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:54,239
Speaker 6: a cross that's been put up on public land, or

703
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 6: or remove a cresh that's in the in the city

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00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:03,280
Speaker 6: square or whatever, or take down the Ten Commandments so forth.

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00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 2: There are two religion clauses. One is that. The other

706
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:09,080
Speaker 2: one is the free exercise clause. And there's no doubt

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00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 2: that when your free exercise has been.

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00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 6: Affected, you should have standing to complain. But a violation

709
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 6: of the establishment clause that does not affect your free exercise.

710
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 6: There is no reason why you should have standing anymore

711
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:30,320
Speaker 6: than you should have standing to complain about the federal

712
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 6: government acting in areas where it has no constitutional authority

713
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,760
Speaker 6: to act. Unless it hurts you, you don't have standing.

714
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 6: But we have made one enormous exception to that, which

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00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:45,359
Speaker 6: is the establishment clause. And that's how we get into

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00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 6: all these I think silly cases. I mean, why did

717
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 6: we not have these cases until the middle of the

718
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 6: twentieth century we have cases about it was because you know,

719
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 6: until then, we didn't give standing.

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00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 2: Anyway, That's the area that is really the worst.

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00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 4: Great answer you have had a privilege and an honor

722
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:11,239
Speaker 4: to hear his honor tonight, and would you thank him

723
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 4: with applause?

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00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:16,879
Speaker 5: My good, good, God bless you all.

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729
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730
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732
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733
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735
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736
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738
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741
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