1 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Washington's USA cuts are 2 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: looming large over regions that depend on assistance, and it 3 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: comes as global humanitarian aid is facing a period of 4 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: acute challenges. You've got flare ups in the world's geopolitical 5 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,600 Speaker 1: hotspots Ukraine, Yemen, and Gaza. Meanwhile, though, the European Union 6 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: is hosting its ninth Brussels Conference today under the theme 7 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: Standing with Syria, and the aim is to mobilize international 8 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: support for the country during its transition from the Assad regime. 9 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: So I'm pleased to say now joining us from Brussels 10 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 1: is Tom Fletcher, Under Secretary General for Humanitarian Affairs and 11 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 1: Emergency Relief Coordinator for the United Nations. Tom, really good 12 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:47,239 Speaker 1: to have you with us on this important day. It 13 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: isn't just USAID that's leaving a void here. You've also 14 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: got the UK cutting defense age spending in order to 15 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: fund defend spending. What are the consequences on the ground 16 00:00:59,160 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: of those aids? 17 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 2: So there are very real consequences because of the pace 18 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 2: of those cuts and also the savagery of those cuts. 19 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:11,119 Speaker 2: There are hundreds of millions of people that we won't 20 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 2: reach with life saving aid in the coming years, So 21 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 2: we're having to revise all of our plans, all of 22 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 2: our strategies to save as many lives as possible with 23 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 2: the resources that we'll still have. 24 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: And of course migration has been key to the rise 25 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:31,040 Speaker 1: of right wing political parties across Europe that could be 26 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: surely fueled more by these aid cuts. 27 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,040 Speaker 2: What do you think, well, I think you know there 28 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 2: is a reason why aid is necessary. It's not just 29 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:45,320 Speaker 2: for ethical moral reasons. It's also because it's upstream diplomacy, 30 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 2: it's upstream security. 31 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 3: Now. 32 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 2: If you engage in countries and help them to build 33 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 2: their economies, as we're trying to do in Syria over 34 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 2: today in this conference here in Brussels today, then actually 35 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 2: you deal with many of the potential downstream consequences of 36 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 2: not engage, rise in insecurity, migration, terrorism, in future pandemics, 37 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 2: for example. So there is a pragmatic case for aid 38 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 2: alongside what many of us would see as the moral 39 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 2: ethical case for helping the world's poorest. 40 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:17,399 Speaker 4: Tom good morning, get Sky. Can we talk a little 41 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 4: bit about what is happening in Syria right now and 42 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 4: the conditions that those return will find. You've got over 43 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 4: a million Syrian refugees in Germany, around half claim benefits. 44 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 4: There is an effect on the labor market as a 45 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 4: result of these people's arrival in this country and their 46 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 4: potential departure as well. Would you expect significant numbers of 47 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 4: Syrians to return from Europe? What are you seeing? What 48 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 4: would you expect? 49 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 2: So? I do expect a lot of Syrians to be 50 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 2: heading home, And in fact, we have a scheme up 51 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 2: and running already where Syrians are able to go and 52 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 2: take a look at the conditions to see whether it's 53 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 2: safe to go back. And the Syrians I talked to, 54 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 2: the vast, vast majority want to go home. I drove. 55 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 2: I spent a week in Syria in December and rove 56 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 2: from the Lebanese border all the way up to the 57 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 2: Turkish border to look at those conditions. Now, the biggest 58 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 2: impediments to people going back are actually unexploded ordinance, and 59 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 2: we're busy clearing that as we speak, but also the 60 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 2: lack of power, which means that you know, there are 61 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 2: it's harder to rebuild communities, rebuild livelihoods. If we can 62 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 2: get those two things sorted, alongside the basic humanitarian needs 63 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 2: that I'm working on here in Brussels around food, water, shelter, medicine. 64 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 2: Then I think people will go back, And what Syrians 65 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 2: tell me is that they'll go from being an importer 66 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 2: of generosity and kindness to being an exporter once again 67 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 2: of generosity and kindness. 68 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 3: Well. Tom one of the criticisms, of course, of this, 69 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 3: aside from the humanitarian approach and the humanitarian reasoning here 70 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 3: of the USAID pullback and some of the reflections you're 71 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 3: seeing in other European governments as well, is simply that 72 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 3: this is an elimination of soft power. And in terms 73 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 3: of some of the Western governments and their reactions to 74 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 3: the rest of the world, are you seeing a tone 75 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 3: shift at all in terms of that move or perhaps 76 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 3: more and more governments, more and more officials around the 77 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 3: world leaning in to that messaging. 78 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 2: Well, you're right that overseas AID has been a massive 79 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 2: part of the projection of magnetism and power soft power 80 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 2: by countries like the US. It's been an enormous way 81 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 2: to show that they are engaged with the world. And 82 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:24,679 Speaker 2: I think you don't build a golden age by retreating 83 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 2: from the world. You build a golden age by engaging 84 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 2: with the world, by leading the world. What we're seeing 85 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 2: is that many other countries are looking to step into 86 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 2: that space. I was in the golf a couple of 87 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 2: weeks ago. I've been in talking to countries in Asia 88 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 2: and across parts of Europe where they're actually saying, we 89 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 2: need to scale up now to compensate for these pullbacks, 90 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 2: and they're seeing the advantages of moving into that space 91 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 2: and really owning that space. So my hope is that 92 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 2: we're not going to see these savage scale of funding 93 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 2: cuts that currently look like they're on the table, and 94 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 2: I'm hoping that we can persuade those countries who are 95 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 2: pulling back to see the benefit of what they were doing. 96 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 4: Let's talk a little bit about Ukraine, because obviously that's 97 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 4: going to be the news over the next twenty four 98 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 4: to forty eight as it looks like we're going to 99 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 4: have a meeting between the US President and Vladimir ps 100 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 4: in a call at least, what is your assessment, Tom, 101 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 4: And you're an expert in this space. You're currently focused 102 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 4: on Syria, but I'm curious to see what you think 103 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 4: the similarities with Ukraine will be and what your expectation 104 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 4: will be for what that country looks like post a 105 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 4: potential peace deal, will refugees be returning, What kind of 106 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 4: effect will they have? What are the situations that they're 107 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 4: going to find on the ground. Are there similarities lesson 108 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 4: learns that we can take away from Syria. What are 109 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:43,039 Speaker 4: you expecting to see and what do you think the 110 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 4: kind of the prognosis is therefore for the Ukrainian economy 111 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 4: the Ukrainian people. 112 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 2: So they're very different situations. Of course, the Syria conflict 113 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 2: has raged now for fourteen years and there is a 114 00:05:56,040 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 2: massive amount of rebuilding to be done again in the Ukraine. 115 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 2: And as those communities go back, if there is a 116 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 2: genuine piece, a genuine ceasefire, there will be a huge 117 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 2: rebuilding program in the East of Ukraine. And I was 118 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 2: there in January. I spend a week traveling around those 119 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 2: areas on the front line. Again, people need food, medicine, 120 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 2: they need shelter. Many have had their homes destroyed. Of course, 121 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 2: the Ukrainian economy is at a more advanced stage anyway 122 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 2: than the Syrian economy, and so you would hope that 123 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 2: with that capacity they'll be able to rebuild faster. Again. 124 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 2: We've got big appeals, as we have for the Syria 125 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 2: campaign right now, but we'll need the world to be 126 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 2: generous there too. The lesson I think from both of 127 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 2: these conflicts is that the costs of not rebuilding, the 128 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 2: costs of not engaging, are actually much greater than the 129 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 2: costs of rebuilding and engaging, because you just kick the 130 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 2: problem further down the road. So let's see what happens 131 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 2: in the next few days. Let's see if there is 132 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 2: a genuine ceasefire facilities on the table that both sides 133 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 2: can accept, and let's see if we can help people 134 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 2: to rebuild their lives and get back to a more 135 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:08,359 Speaker 2: peaceful existence. 136 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 1: Again. 137 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 4: Sounds all pretty good, Tom. We will follow events with 138 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 4: a great deal of interest, and what is happening in 139 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 4: Syria over the next few days as well. Tom Fletcher, 140 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 4: Under Secretary for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator for 141 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 4: the United Nations, Thank you very much.