1 00:00:14,036 --> 00:00:21,996 Speaker 1: Push it. Alright. So, so I'm gonna lead us off 2 00:00:22,036 --> 00:00:24,036 Speaker 1: with the first question. Is that is that great? God? 3 00:00:24,036 --> 00:00:25,636 Speaker 1: You're good? Yeah, you're ready? All right? All right? So 4 00:00:25,676 --> 00:00:28,076 Speaker 1: what happens when a white guy, a black guy, and 5 00:00:28,116 --> 00:00:31,516 Speaker 1: an Asian guy get together and talk about identity? I 6 00:00:31,556 --> 00:00:34,676 Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe the white guy is very quiet usually 7 00:00:37,836 --> 00:00:48,436 Speaker 1: all right, that's good, that's good. I'm Khalil Jibrad Muhammad 8 00:00:48,596 --> 00:00:51,876 Speaker 1: and I'm Ben Austin. We're two best friends, one black, 9 00:00:52,356 --> 00:00:55,716 Speaker 1: one white. I'm a historian and I'm a journalist, and 10 00:00:55,916 --> 00:00:59,196 Speaker 1: this is some of my best friends are in this show. 11 00:00:59,236 --> 00:01:02,436 Speaker 1: We wrestle with the challenges and the absurdities of a 12 00:01:02,516 --> 00:01:06,396 Speaker 1: deeply divided and unequal country, and in this episode we 13 00:01:06,516 --> 00:01:09,796 Speaker 1: deepen our understanding of that divide by talking with Jay 14 00:01:10,116 --> 00:01:20,876 Speaker 1: Caspian King about his new book The Loneliest Americans? Don't 15 00:01:36,516 --> 00:01:41,716 Speaker 1: you baby, Dad? Khalil, We've been we've been thinking for 16 00:01:41,756 --> 00:01:44,716 Speaker 1: a while, how do we do an episode of this 17 00:01:44,756 --> 00:01:47,716 Speaker 1: show if some of my best friends are that that 18 00:01:47,836 --> 00:01:51,436 Speaker 1: is about the Asian American experience? Yeah? Yeah, we have 19 00:01:51,516 --> 00:01:53,636 Speaker 1: talked about this a lot, and I'm like, why don't 20 00:01:53,636 --> 00:01:55,956 Speaker 1: we talk about all our Asian American best friends. Yeah, 21 00:01:55,996 --> 00:01:58,116 Speaker 1: and I was worried that that was gonna be like, man, 22 00:01:58,196 --> 00:02:01,876 Speaker 1: we sound like that the joke of the show's title, 23 00:02:02,116 --> 00:02:04,316 Speaker 1: and you were like, yeah, yeah, but that's okay. So 24 00:02:04,356 --> 00:02:08,556 Speaker 1: then Jay Caspian Kang's book came out, The Loneliest Americans, yep, 25 00:02:08,636 --> 00:02:10,836 Speaker 1: and I remember you were like, dude, we should talk 26 00:02:10,836 --> 00:02:13,196 Speaker 1: about that. Yeah. Yeah, because I've been following his work 27 00:02:13,236 --> 00:02:16,316 Speaker 1: for for more than a decade, right, Like I remember 28 00:02:16,356 --> 00:02:18,356 Speaker 1: he used to write for this website called grant Land, 29 00:02:18,396 --> 00:02:22,596 Speaker 1: which I also wrote for. He worked for Vice News 30 00:02:22,636 --> 00:02:25,356 Speaker 1: as a civil rights reporter. He wrote for The New 31 00:02:25,436 --> 00:02:29,476 Speaker 1: York Times magazine, which we've both which we've both written for. 32 00:02:29,676 --> 00:02:33,596 Speaker 1: But ump ump, yes, okay, all right, that's true. That's true. Yeah. Yeah, 33 00:02:33,636 --> 00:02:35,996 Speaker 1: And he writes this newsletter now for The New York Times, 34 00:02:35,996 --> 00:02:39,716 Speaker 1: which is so smart and funny and kind of offbeat 35 00:02:39,836 --> 00:02:41,996 Speaker 1: at the same time. Part of the race related series, 36 00:02:42,076 --> 00:02:44,036 Speaker 1: right yeah. Yeah. So this was like it seems so 37 00:02:44,076 --> 00:02:47,556 Speaker 1: connected to what we're doing and and and also controversial 38 00:02:47,596 --> 00:02:49,516 Speaker 1: in a way like this book, I think The Loneliest 39 00:02:49,516 --> 00:02:54,956 Speaker 1: Americans takes a stance that has actually like he's got 40 00:02:54,996 --> 00:02:57,636 Speaker 1: some backlash on Yeah. So we got him on the show. 41 00:02:58,156 --> 00:03:01,156 Speaker 1: He joined us from his home in northern California. Yeah, 42 00:03:01,236 --> 00:03:18,756 Speaker 1: so let's get into it just generally for listeners. The 43 00:03:18,796 --> 00:03:22,796 Speaker 1: book is about the identity of Asian people in America, 44 00:03:22,836 --> 00:03:26,036 Speaker 1: and I'm careful to not saying Asian American because you 45 00:03:26,116 --> 00:03:29,276 Speaker 1: talk about how that identity doesn't exist and sort of 46 00:03:29,276 --> 00:03:33,196 Speaker 1: you challenge that that that sense and I we want 47 00:03:33,236 --> 00:03:35,956 Speaker 1: to invite you on the show because we read this 48 00:03:35,996 --> 00:03:39,476 Speaker 1: book and it felt so much in dialogue with this show, 49 00:03:39,516 --> 00:03:41,396 Speaker 1: which is called Some of My Best Friends Are and 50 00:03:41,476 --> 00:03:43,836 Speaker 1: as you know, about race and all these ways and 51 00:03:43,916 --> 00:03:46,676 Speaker 1: also with our lives, because the show is really about 52 00:03:46,716 --> 00:03:50,956 Speaker 1: you know, we're wrestling with these stories too, and the 53 00:03:50,996 --> 00:03:54,396 Speaker 1: white black binary, yeah, and like embodied and the sense 54 00:03:54,436 --> 00:03:57,276 Speaker 1: like you you write about this white black binary and 55 00:03:57,396 --> 00:04:00,716 Speaker 1: that you know, the white part sort of embodying assimilation 56 00:04:00,756 --> 00:04:03,396 Speaker 1: and upward mobility, and the black part a sense of 57 00:04:03,396 --> 00:04:09,356 Speaker 1: either like victimization and racial struggle and that there wasn't 58 00:04:09,356 --> 00:04:11,716 Speaker 1: really a place for you personally and also not a 59 00:04:11,716 --> 00:04:14,956 Speaker 1: place for most Asians in America. Certainly, My parents were 60 00:04:14,996 --> 00:04:18,996 Speaker 1: never like how's it going navigating space or like, you know, 61 00:04:19,236 --> 00:04:21,356 Speaker 1: how does it feel to be you know, in these 62 00:04:21,356 --> 00:04:23,556 Speaker 1: classrooms or like you know what's going on in there 63 00:04:23,956 --> 00:04:27,196 Speaker 1: um and and and man, I mean like thinking about 64 00:04:27,236 --> 00:04:29,276 Speaker 1: your book and thinking about like we went back to 65 00:04:29,316 --> 00:04:31,996 Speaker 1: our high school yearbook after reading your book because Jay 66 00:04:32,156 --> 00:04:33,516 Speaker 1: I brought it. I brought it out just for you, 67 00:04:33,596 --> 00:04:36,956 Speaker 1: and you know, like it looks like a chessboard, right, 68 00:04:37,076 --> 00:04:40,156 Speaker 1: it's like black white black white white. That's wow. Yeah. Yeah, 69 00:04:40,196 --> 00:04:43,156 Speaker 1: there's like one white kid on each page. Every every 70 00:04:43,196 --> 00:04:52,596 Speaker 1: girl has the exacting way more way more in the 71 00:04:52,636 --> 00:04:55,756 Speaker 1: middle of exactly and more particularly, I mean to Ben's 72 00:04:55,836 --> 00:05:00,116 Speaker 1: larger point. I mean, because your book inspired so much 73 00:05:00,156 --> 00:05:03,876 Speaker 1: of our own thinking about like seeing ourselves like across 74 00:05:04,036 --> 00:05:08,956 Speaker 1: this vast spectrum of how we understand whiteness and blackness. 75 00:05:09,436 --> 00:05:13,596 Speaker 1: I literally went back and counted, like how many students 76 00:05:13,636 --> 00:05:17,716 Speaker 1: could I identify as part of an Asian diaspora? And 77 00:05:17,756 --> 00:05:20,236 Speaker 1: I couldn't get to two hands. Oh wow, how big 78 00:05:20,396 --> 00:05:24,396 Speaker 1: was a school? Almost two pretty sure our class? Yeah, 79 00:05:24,476 --> 00:05:26,476 Speaker 1: five hundred yeah. And I thought maybe we could first 80 00:05:26,476 --> 00:05:29,436 Speaker 1: start about the three of us all growing up mostly 81 00:05:29,516 --> 00:05:33,356 Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties, and thinking about how we all 82 00:05:33,476 --> 00:05:37,036 Speaker 1: learned that that binary existed, Like this is sort of 83 00:05:37,036 --> 00:05:39,916 Speaker 1: the main racial divide and you have to fit somewhere 84 00:05:39,956 --> 00:05:43,796 Speaker 1: in it, right, right. I split my childhood between Cambridge, 85 00:05:43,796 --> 00:05:49,076 Speaker 1: Master Jesus Chapehol North Carolina, two university towns. And in Cambridge, 86 00:05:49,476 --> 00:05:51,476 Speaker 1: you know, after a few years, for a year we 87 00:05:51,556 --> 00:05:53,716 Speaker 1: moved out to the suburbs, I think as in first 88 00:05:53,796 --> 00:05:55,676 Speaker 1: or second grade. And this one of my first clear 89 00:05:55,716 --> 00:05:59,236 Speaker 1: memories is that, you know, watching the kids get off 90 00:05:59,276 --> 00:06:01,516 Speaker 1: the Metco bus. You know, like when we had beard 91 00:06:01,596 --> 00:06:03,596 Speaker 1: to the suburbs. It's all black, you know, just black 92 00:06:03,636 --> 00:06:06,796 Speaker 1: kids probably from Roxbury, South Boston. You gotta tell us 93 00:06:06,796 --> 00:06:08,836 Speaker 1: a little something about Mecco because you know, it's sort 94 00:06:08,876 --> 00:06:12,916 Speaker 1: of this dream experiment that people brag about, is like, 95 00:06:12,956 --> 00:06:20,076 Speaker 1: like about it. Wow. Macco was the Boston area busting program, right, 96 00:06:20,436 --> 00:06:24,436 Speaker 1: and it was seen as this great speaking of progressive 97 00:06:24,476 --> 00:06:26,996 Speaker 1: thought and it was a huge infrastructure thing where they 98 00:06:26,996 --> 00:06:30,716 Speaker 1: would bus kids thirty forty minutes out into the suburbs 99 00:06:31,716 --> 00:06:36,916 Speaker 1: and that it was basically the peak of like school integration, goodwill. Right, 100 00:06:37,036 --> 00:06:39,356 Speaker 1: And yeah, one of the first memories I have from 101 00:06:39,676 --> 00:06:42,156 Speaker 1: from my childhood period is just sort of standing at 102 00:06:42,196 --> 00:06:44,596 Speaker 1: the bus circle and you know, watching the Mico bus 103 00:06:44,756 --> 00:06:47,036 Speaker 1: roll and and every kid who got off the bus 104 00:06:47,116 --> 00:06:48,796 Speaker 1: was black. And there are no black kids at the 105 00:06:48,796 --> 00:06:50,516 Speaker 1: rest of the school, and like maybe there's one or two, 106 00:06:50,516 --> 00:06:52,596 Speaker 1: but almost none. But I don't think that I was 107 00:06:52,636 --> 00:06:55,756 Speaker 1: really aware that I was like much different than the 108 00:06:55,756 --> 00:06:59,276 Speaker 1: white kids, you know, because I lived in that town, right, Like, 109 00:06:59,316 --> 00:07:02,876 Speaker 1: I didn't take that bus, and so the differentiate or 110 00:07:02,876 --> 00:07:06,276 Speaker 1: of race in that in that instance was whether or 111 00:07:06,276 --> 00:07:08,436 Speaker 1: not you took the bus. Right. That was the first 112 00:07:08,436 --> 00:07:11,316 Speaker 1: time I thought I actually realized that there was any difference, 113 00:07:11,516 --> 00:07:13,796 Speaker 1: you know, and standing in the bus circle there and 114 00:07:13,876 --> 00:07:16,076 Speaker 1: just sort of you know, because it was so it 115 00:07:16,196 --> 00:07:18,196 Speaker 1: was so stark, right like it was just like those 116 00:07:18,276 --> 00:07:21,156 Speaker 1: kids ride that bus. I don't ride that bus, right, 117 00:07:21,716 --> 00:07:24,196 Speaker 1: and so I must be part of this group. So 118 00:07:24,236 --> 00:07:27,356 Speaker 1: then you move from Cambridge, Massachusetts, to the south to 119 00:07:27,556 --> 00:07:30,796 Speaker 1: Chapel Hill, I believe, right in North Carolina. What was 120 00:07:30,836 --> 00:07:33,316 Speaker 1: that school? Like My schooling was very similar to yours. 121 00:07:33,396 --> 00:07:35,276 Speaker 1: You know, there weren't that many Asian kids around, and 122 00:07:35,356 --> 00:07:37,996 Speaker 1: the school had a lot of black students and a 123 00:07:37,996 --> 00:07:40,356 Speaker 1: lot of white students. You know. Um, you know, there's 124 00:07:40,396 --> 00:07:44,436 Speaker 1: this really interesting class element to it too, where I 125 00:07:44,516 --> 00:07:47,956 Speaker 1: was in this very odd program back then and it 126 00:07:48,036 --> 00:07:50,036 Speaker 1: was like eighteen of us. I don't I hate people 127 00:07:50,196 --> 00:07:52,916 Speaker 1: say this, but it's like some sort of like accelerated program. 128 00:07:53,116 --> 00:07:55,156 Speaker 1: But we had three black kids in that class, and 129 00:07:55,476 --> 00:07:58,676 Speaker 1: one of their fathers was like the most famous doctor 130 00:07:58,676 --> 00:08:01,356 Speaker 1: in the area, like you know, like on local news 131 00:08:01,356 --> 00:08:06,076 Speaker 1: when the doctor comes on, right, right, So he was 132 00:08:06,116 --> 00:08:09,036 Speaker 1: our in the Piedmont area. He was sort of the 133 00:08:09,116 --> 00:08:12,076 Speaker 1: Sanjay Gupta. And then the other girl in our class, 134 00:08:12,236 --> 00:08:14,516 Speaker 1: her father was an educator. The mother was like I 135 00:08:14,556 --> 00:08:17,036 Speaker 1: think worked in stem And then we had one kid 136 00:08:17,036 --> 00:08:19,076 Speaker 1: who is from the sort of you know, the poor 137 00:08:19,116 --> 00:08:22,436 Speaker 1: black neighborhood and Chapel Hill. And it was interesting how 138 00:08:22,476 --> 00:08:27,276 Speaker 1: like that was even differentiated even for us in fifth grade. Right, 139 00:08:27,396 --> 00:08:30,356 Speaker 1: you mean you understood these black kids were different from 140 00:08:30,356 --> 00:08:33,196 Speaker 1: each other, right, right. It was more ingrained in us 141 00:08:33,276 --> 00:08:35,276 Speaker 1: to think of it that way than it would be 142 00:08:35,396 --> 00:08:38,356 Speaker 1: to think of it as being like totally separated, right, 143 00:08:38,676 --> 00:08:40,676 Speaker 1: And it was very It made for a very confusing 144 00:08:40,716 --> 00:08:42,476 Speaker 1: experience that I tried to write about in the book, 145 00:08:42,516 --> 00:08:44,236 Speaker 1: where it's just like, you know, like how do you 146 00:08:44,236 --> 00:08:46,996 Speaker 1: sort of sort all this, especially when you know you're 147 00:08:47,356 --> 00:08:50,316 Speaker 1: in the situation where you have to differentiate. But I mean, 148 00:08:50,316 --> 00:08:54,396 Speaker 1: it's an interesting point about how you're also navigating the 149 00:08:54,476 --> 00:08:59,716 Speaker 1: absurdities of racial stereotypes that you can see black people 150 00:08:59,716 --> 00:09:05,156 Speaker 1: who are also trying to traverse, challenge, avoid And you 151 00:09:05,356 --> 00:09:07,916 Speaker 1: tell this great story about Dwayne, a friend of yours 152 00:09:08,276 --> 00:09:11,836 Speaker 1: who you befriended. I can't that was that also in Yeah, 153 00:09:11,836 --> 00:09:13,796 Speaker 1: it's the same kid who was in that class, who 154 00:09:13,836 --> 00:09:16,436 Speaker 1: came who lived in that Okay, so we're talking about Dwayne. Yeah, 155 00:09:16,436 --> 00:09:18,796 Speaker 1: he's the poor kid. Yeah yeah, yeah. You make the 156 00:09:18,836 --> 00:09:22,476 Speaker 1: point about Duwayne as the poor kid in the community 157 00:09:22,556 --> 00:09:26,436 Speaker 1: being kind of representative of the absurdity of this notion 158 00:09:26,676 --> 00:09:28,756 Speaker 1: of people of color all being the same. Oh yeah, 159 00:09:28,836 --> 00:09:32,316 Speaker 1: someone had told me that we were both people of color. 160 00:09:32,756 --> 00:09:35,036 Speaker 1: Just look at them like they're crazy, you know, because 161 00:09:36,276 --> 00:09:39,516 Speaker 1: there was such separation between me and Dwayne, right, and 162 00:09:39,676 --> 00:09:41,396 Speaker 1: you know, in the book, I sort of illustrated through 163 00:09:41,396 --> 00:09:44,476 Speaker 1: this anecdote where like our literal league games or some 164 00:09:44,516 --> 00:09:47,316 Speaker 1: of our little games were played in Dwayne's neighborhood. And 165 00:09:47,436 --> 00:09:50,036 Speaker 1: if you can imagine how yeah, this is still the 166 00:09:50,076 --> 00:09:54,476 Speaker 1: South Chepho's progressive town is still the South, right, and 167 00:09:54,636 --> 00:09:57,156 Speaker 1: the way in which people would talk about going to 168 00:09:57,236 --> 00:10:00,276 Speaker 1: those games right, lock your car, you know, like make 169 00:10:00,356 --> 00:10:02,796 Speaker 1: sure that like get in and out as quickly as possible, 170 00:10:02,836 --> 00:10:04,836 Speaker 1: all this sort of stuff, this kind of anti black 171 00:10:05,076 --> 00:10:08,356 Speaker 1: everyone's a criminal rhetoric. Yeah, and you know as a kid, 172 00:10:08,396 --> 00:10:12,436 Speaker 1: you absorbed that, right. And so then you were playing 173 00:10:12,476 --> 00:10:15,636 Speaker 1: and Dwayne walks over the field, he sees me, says hello, 174 00:10:16,236 --> 00:10:18,836 Speaker 1: you know, I there's another moment where I just like 175 00:10:18,916 --> 00:10:22,756 Speaker 1: sort of understand that seeing him in that environment, you 176 00:10:22,796 --> 00:10:25,796 Speaker 1: see like, oh, what they're talking about when they say 177 00:10:25,876 --> 00:10:27,996 Speaker 1: lock your cars and get out of there as quickly 178 00:10:28,036 --> 00:10:32,036 Speaker 1: as possible as Dwayne? Right, And so the idea at 179 00:10:32,076 --> 00:10:36,196 Speaker 1: that moment that like, you and Dwayne are people of 180 00:10:36,236 --> 00:10:39,756 Speaker 1: color and like, what what are you talking about? You know? 181 00:10:39,996 --> 00:10:43,596 Speaker 1: And um, I don't know. I've thought about that moment 182 00:10:43,636 --> 00:10:46,396 Speaker 1: so much throughout my life where it's just like, uh, 183 00:10:47,156 --> 00:10:48,596 Speaker 1: you know, because in some ways I felt like I 184 00:10:48,676 --> 00:10:51,596 Speaker 1: was betraying him, right, um, because I was acting so 185 00:10:51,636 --> 00:10:54,716 Speaker 1: awkward and that it was shocking to me. I was 186 00:10:54,756 --> 00:10:58,196 Speaker 1: like probably twelve years old something like that, and um, 187 00:10:58,876 --> 00:11:04,596 Speaker 1: and I'm having these thoughts right about my friend. And yeah, 188 00:11:04,756 --> 00:11:06,796 Speaker 1: I mean it's it's tough to talk about even now, 189 00:11:06,916 --> 00:11:09,316 Speaker 1: you know. And the reality of it is that I 190 00:11:09,396 --> 00:11:11,716 Speaker 1: think if you said that Deirdre and I, you know, 191 00:11:11,716 --> 00:11:14,436 Speaker 1: who was a woman whose father was like our famous doctor. 192 00:11:15,156 --> 00:11:17,556 Speaker 1: If you had said Deirdre and your people of color, 193 00:11:17,596 --> 00:11:20,876 Speaker 1: I had been sure, you know, but Due and I 194 00:11:20,876 --> 00:11:23,116 Speaker 1: could not be people of color together. And I think 195 00:11:23,116 --> 00:11:27,396 Speaker 1: that that's like a very complicated thing that I think 196 00:11:27,436 --> 00:11:32,156 Speaker 1: that those types of distinctions are very uncomfortable. But you know, 197 00:11:32,396 --> 00:11:34,436 Speaker 1: in my life, at least, they're much more felt, like, 198 00:11:34,516 --> 00:11:36,756 Speaker 1: you know, like they seem much more real to me 199 00:11:37,236 --> 00:11:40,196 Speaker 1: than terms like people of color. You struggle with the 200 00:11:40,316 --> 00:11:42,996 Speaker 1: term people of color throughout most of the book, and 201 00:11:43,036 --> 00:11:44,916 Speaker 1: I've been thinking, is there is there a moment when 202 00:11:44,956 --> 00:11:47,316 Speaker 1: you really come to terms with who you are? Because 203 00:11:47,316 --> 00:11:49,516 Speaker 1: that seems to me to be a question at the 204 00:11:49,516 --> 00:11:53,756 Speaker 1: heart of this book. Who am I? Right? Right? That's true? Well, 205 00:11:53,876 --> 00:11:55,876 Speaker 1: I think it was a series of moments. And I 206 00:11:55,876 --> 00:11:58,796 Speaker 1: think what's interesting about the series of moments, and maybe 207 00:11:58,836 --> 00:12:01,436 Speaker 1: this is not typical for Asian people, but certainly it 208 00:12:01,476 --> 00:12:03,876 Speaker 1: was true for me, was that none of the moments 209 00:12:03,916 --> 00:12:06,476 Speaker 1: had anything to do with white people. Right. Of course, 210 00:12:06,596 --> 00:12:08,396 Speaker 1: in some ways it had to do with white people, 211 00:12:08,396 --> 00:12:11,276 Speaker 1: but it was not about differentiating myself from white people 212 00:12:11,716 --> 00:12:15,236 Speaker 1: or having white people differentiate themselves from me, right, It 213 00:12:15,316 --> 00:12:18,196 Speaker 1: was about every single one of these moments involved black people, 214 00:12:18,516 --> 00:12:23,036 Speaker 1: right involved It involved either differentiating myself from black people 215 00:12:23,116 --> 00:12:25,876 Speaker 1: or having black people differentiate themselves from me. Wow, And 216 00:12:26,076 --> 00:12:29,116 Speaker 1: I think that that actually is you know, it has 217 00:12:29,196 --> 00:12:32,356 Speaker 1: informed basically all of my thinking, right, and that this 218 00:12:32,516 --> 00:12:37,556 Speaker 1: went through a lot of phases like when I was sixteen, seventeen, 219 00:12:38,076 --> 00:12:43,196 Speaker 1: maybe fifteen, like I wore Timberland's and listen to listen 220 00:12:43,236 --> 00:12:46,316 Speaker 1: to Wu Tang and nas and oh, snap, you're getting 221 00:12:46,316 --> 00:12:48,236 Speaker 1: close to band. You're pushing up on the white guy 222 00:12:48,236 --> 00:12:57,156 Speaker 1: in this conversation. I wonder he has some stories to tell, right, right. 223 00:12:57,636 --> 00:13:00,676 Speaker 1: But it was like, you know, like I feel like 224 00:13:00,676 --> 00:13:02,356 Speaker 1: people are about our age and a little bit older. 225 00:13:02,356 --> 00:13:04,476 Speaker 1: I'm much more familiar with this than young people today 226 00:13:04,476 --> 00:13:06,156 Speaker 1: because I think it's sort of been drummed out of 227 00:13:06,196 --> 00:13:07,956 Speaker 1: the culture. But there's a period where like a lot 228 00:13:07,996 --> 00:13:09,716 Speaker 1: of Asian kids, a lot of Jews kids, I think, 229 00:13:09,756 --> 00:13:12,916 Speaker 1: would sort of put on this affect when they're teenagers, 230 00:13:12,996 --> 00:13:15,836 Speaker 1: right or maybe, And sometimes like it's like I don't 231 00:13:15,836 --> 00:13:17,716 Speaker 1: know if it's even an affect, right, It's just like 232 00:13:17,756 --> 00:13:19,756 Speaker 1: you're developing, and this is this is a path that 233 00:13:19,796 --> 00:13:22,516 Speaker 1: you chose, You chose this type of identification and I 234 00:13:22,556 --> 00:13:25,396 Speaker 1: definitely went through all of that, right, and so you 235 00:13:25,396 --> 00:13:28,796 Speaker 1: you swing back and forth, right, but um, well it's 236 00:13:28,836 --> 00:13:30,796 Speaker 1: interesting to me at the time or you know now 237 00:13:30,796 --> 00:13:32,396 Speaker 1: that I think about it is like I don't know, 238 00:13:32,476 --> 00:13:35,476 Speaker 1: Like I don't know, Ben, why did you like what 239 00:13:35,796 --> 00:13:40,876 Speaker 1: was your because he's literally just literally the white guy 240 00:13:40,916 --> 00:13:43,196 Speaker 1: in this conversation being silent, like you said at the right. 241 00:13:43,196 --> 00:13:45,156 Speaker 1: And then what's the what was that like for you? 242 00:13:45,196 --> 00:13:47,876 Speaker 1: Like what like what what was your experience with that? 243 00:13:48,036 --> 00:13:51,556 Speaker 1: The what is like in terms of identity right now? 244 00:13:51,636 --> 00:13:53,636 Speaker 1: Like in high school? Like where you did you listen 245 00:13:53,756 --> 00:13:56,156 Speaker 1: rap and like sort of talk about yeah, listen to rap? 246 00:13:56,196 --> 00:13:57,916 Speaker 1: I mean like Khalil and I joke because he was 247 00:13:57,956 --> 00:14:00,036 Speaker 1: more like Phil Collins, and I was more like, are 248 00:14:00,036 --> 00:14:02,636 Speaker 1: you talking about me? You got to talk about I'm 249 00:14:02,636 --> 00:14:06,236 Speaker 1: embracing it. Uh. You know. So the dominant culture was, 250 00:14:06,556 --> 00:14:08,716 Speaker 1: you know, which I've felt a part of. Like I mean, 251 00:14:08,716 --> 00:14:12,476 Speaker 1: I was like, you know, saturated by by this world 252 00:14:12,516 --> 00:14:15,676 Speaker 1: and like you know, uh, connected to it in a 253 00:14:15,716 --> 00:14:18,476 Speaker 1: lot of ways. Um. You know, Khalil had been asking 254 00:14:18,516 --> 00:14:21,396 Speaker 1: me after reading this book about being Jewish in that 255 00:14:21,556 --> 00:14:24,716 Speaker 1: in that world, and I was sort of thinking about 256 00:14:24,756 --> 00:14:27,276 Speaker 1: that in my head, and like there wasn't like an 257 00:14:27,276 --> 00:14:32,476 Speaker 1: alternative white dominant culture that I felt that I you know, 258 00:14:32,956 --> 00:14:35,996 Speaker 1: was vacillating between you know, like like between say white 259 00:14:35,996 --> 00:14:38,156 Speaker 1: and black and then a third thing Jewish. You know 260 00:14:38,196 --> 00:14:40,516 Speaker 1: that they're just it didn't exist in any numbers in 261 00:14:40,556 --> 00:14:43,516 Speaker 1: our in our community. Um so I could be the 262 00:14:43,596 --> 00:14:45,396 Speaker 1: think of a whole lot of corny white dudes who 263 00:14:45,436 --> 00:14:48,116 Speaker 1: you know. But but that doesn't mean exactly, That doesn't 264 00:14:48,116 --> 00:14:51,436 Speaker 1: mean that it's did you have like a like did 265 00:14:51,436 --> 00:14:54,716 Speaker 1: you feel like not totally white at the time? Either, 266 00:14:54,756 --> 00:14:57,196 Speaker 1: because like that was it? You know in North Carolina 267 00:14:57,236 --> 00:15:00,076 Speaker 1: that my friends are mostly Jewish, there weren't that many 268 00:15:00,116 --> 00:15:02,436 Speaker 1: of them, you know, And I think about it, it's 269 00:15:02,436 --> 00:15:04,516 Speaker 1: like this is like the eighties and nineties. It's like 270 00:15:04,516 --> 00:15:07,396 Speaker 1: they weren't exactly white back then either, you know, Like 271 00:15:07,836 --> 00:15:10,396 Speaker 1: that's a great question. You know, what's what's funny about that. 272 00:15:10,636 --> 00:15:13,076 Speaker 1: I would say that I didn't think that at all 273 00:15:13,436 --> 00:15:15,716 Speaker 1: in high school. And then when I went to college 274 00:15:15,716 --> 00:15:18,716 Speaker 1: and I was like amidst this all white culture, I 275 00:15:18,796 --> 00:15:20,956 Speaker 1: was like, man, I'm not really like all these white people, 276 00:15:21,636 --> 00:15:24,556 Speaker 1: And I didn't think in those terms beforehand. You know, 277 00:15:24,596 --> 00:15:26,956 Speaker 1: I thought I was just this thing that existed in 278 00:15:26,996 --> 00:15:30,396 Speaker 1: this space. Um, and and then being in a in 279 00:15:30,476 --> 00:15:33,156 Speaker 1: an all white space, essentially a college and people who 280 00:15:33,236 --> 00:15:35,876 Speaker 1: didn't grow up in communities and neighborhoods like I did, 281 00:15:35,916 --> 00:15:37,676 Speaker 1: I was like, man, I'm not like these white people. 282 00:15:38,076 --> 00:15:39,996 Speaker 1: And that had less to do with being Jewish than 283 00:15:40,116 --> 00:15:42,636 Speaker 1: than with sort of just coming from from a certain 284 00:15:42,876 --> 00:15:45,796 Speaker 1: certain neighborhood. Right. Well, well, what I can tell you, 285 00:15:45,916 --> 00:15:50,356 Speaker 1: Jay uh In, in clearer terms is that this dude 286 00:15:50,716 --> 00:15:56,156 Speaker 1: was was black cool in high school. Uh He carried 287 00:15:56,236 --> 00:16:00,476 Speaker 1: himself in the way that you know, had swagger. He 288 00:16:00,876 --> 00:16:03,836 Speaker 1: wore a gold chain. To this day, I've never owned 289 00:16:03,836 --> 00:16:06,556 Speaker 1: a gold chain. I'm gonna I'm gonna get you one 290 00:16:06,596 --> 00:16:09,636 Speaker 1: for your He had, he had his garb o jeans. 291 00:16:09,756 --> 00:16:12,796 Speaker 1: I was still weare who didn't? Yeah, well I had, 292 00:16:12,876 --> 00:16:19,636 Speaker 1: I had, And so if I showed you pictures of 293 00:16:19,716 --> 00:16:23,356 Speaker 1: him back then, you would totally get it. Oh yeah yeah. 294 00:16:23,436 --> 00:16:27,716 Speaker 1: And any of my friends were exactly you know, we're 295 00:16:27,836 --> 00:16:30,636 Speaker 1: like that. It's an interesting thing because I feel like 296 00:16:30,676 --> 00:16:33,196 Speaker 1: there's a lot of sort of shame. Right. It's not 297 00:16:33,276 --> 00:16:35,876 Speaker 1: like people like are gonna cancel you get mad at 298 00:16:35,916 --> 00:16:38,836 Speaker 1: you if you did that, but certainly and unless you 299 00:16:38,876 --> 00:16:41,076 Speaker 1: actually put on black face, right, done, right, But it's 300 00:16:41,236 --> 00:16:44,356 Speaker 1: very stot of his very ghost now, and I don't know, 301 00:16:44,516 --> 00:16:47,036 Speaker 1: like do you do you get that? Do you think 302 00:16:47,036 --> 00:16:49,276 Speaker 1: it's ghost now or do you like how do you 303 00:16:49,316 --> 00:16:52,156 Speaker 1: reflect back on it and think about like, hey, you know, like, no, 304 00:16:52,276 --> 00:16:55,076 Speaker 1: I was right, you know, No, No, I don't. I 305 00:16:55,076 --> 00:16:56,916 Speaker 1: don't feel it because I don't feel like I was 306 00:16:57,036 --> 00:16:59,836 Speaker 1: pretending to be something I wasn't either, right, I think 307 00:16:59,876 --> 00:17:05,196 Speaker 1: I was aware of the cultures around me and also 308 00:17:06,156 --> 00:17:10,556 Speaker 1: you know, engaged in it um and so yeah, the 309 00:17:10,636 --> 00:17:12,796 Speaker 1: menu of options were there, and I like picked from 310 00:17:12,836 --> 00:17:15,396 Speaker 1: those menu items, you know, like the six items. I 311 00:17:15,436 --> 00:17:17,996 Speaker 1: picked five of them and one of them, as Khalil said, 312 00:17:17,996 --> 00:17:19,556 Speaker 1: it might have been like, you know, white kid on 313 00:17:19,556 --> 00:17:23,636 Speaker 1: the math team, and I didn't pick that one. When 314 00:17:23,636 --> 00:17:25,356 Speaker 1: we come back after the break, we're going to talk 315 00:17:25,356 --> 00:17:28,356 Speaker 1: to Jay about choices he made to focus his reporting 316 00:17:28,356 --> 00:17:31,556 Speaker 1: on Black Lives Matter protests and the choices Asians in 317 00:17:31,596 --> 00:17:49,836 Speaker 1: America can make about their future. You write a lot 318 00:17:49,836 --> 00:17:53,196 Speaker 1: about your reporting on the Black Lives Matter protests, which 319 00:17:53,236 --> 00:17:55,196 Speaker 1: is something that I also did a lot of reporting 320 00:17:55,196 --> 00:17:58,876 Speaker 1: on here in Chicago. After the killing of Lakwan McDonald 321 00:17:58,876 --> 00:18:00,556 Speaker 1: and sort of like I got deep into this here, 322 00:18:01,076 --> 00:18:04,836 Speaker 1: and you know what drew you to that reporting and 323 00:18:04,916 --> 00:18:08,476 Speaker 1: sort of like what did you learn about yourself by 324 00:18:08,516 --> 00:18:12,036 Speaker 1: covering this racial justice moment? Well, you know, since I 325 00:18:12,116 --> 00:18:16,396 Speaker 1: was in high school or college, I thought that I 326 00:18:16,436 --> 00:18:18,436 Speaker 1: still feel this way, you know, like I'm very drawn 327 00:18:18,516 --> 00:18:22,756 Speaker 1: to protest movements, especially you know, street protests. It's like 328 00:18:22,796 --> 00:18:24,996 Speaker 1: the thing that I feel most passionately about. Right, And 329 00:18:25,036 --> 00:18:29,836 Speaker 1: so during Ferguson and for the four years after, like 330 00:18:29,876 --> 00:18:32,036 Speaker 1: that was basically my job. Yeah, you were, you were 331 00:18:32,116 --> 00:18:34,596 Speaker 1: their quote civil rights reporter for it. For right, I 332 00:18:34,596 --> 00:18:36,556 Speaker 1: did some stuff for The Times, and then my job 333 00:18:36,636 --> 00:18:40,596 Speaker 1: for vices, you know, just go and you know, see 334 00:18:40,596 --> 00:18:44,156 Speaker 1: what's happening. And uh, as a result, I went to 335 00:18:44,156 --> 00:18:49,916 Speaker 1: tons of these protests, right, like uh, Baton Rouge, Minneapolis, Baltimore, 336 00:18:50,876 --> 00:18:56,596 Speaker 1: Saint Louis, Alton, Stirling, right, right, and you write a 337 00:18:56,596 --> 00:19:00,156 Speaker 1: lot about Philando Castile, right. You know, it felt like 338 00:19:01,476 --> 00:19:04,796 Speaker 1: at first I was just like, well, and a lot 339 00:19:04,876 --> 00:19:06,716 Speaker 1: they might be like, well, I'm the only Asian person here, 340 00:19:07,036 --> 00:19:10,556 Speaker 1: you know, and like what it's like you like you 341 00:19:10,636 --> 00:19:13,036 Speaker 1: count the faces right, right, right? I would just count 342 00:19:13,156 --> 00:19:14,956 Speaker 1: well one more thing before you say that. So I 343 00:19:15,036 --> 00:19:20,276 Speaker 1: learned for the first time that Asian people at least 344 00:19:20,316 --> 00:19:23,356 Speaker 1: at least you give the nod. I was like, holy shit, 345 00:19:23,636 --> 00:19:27,956 Speaker 1: Like there's an Asian nod, right, isn't then what you say? 346 00:19:27,996 --> 00:19:30,716 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I mean I think I have protested 347 00:19:30,796 --> 00:19:35,596 Speaker 1: like twenty seventeen, twenty sixteen, Yeah, definitely. But now last 348 00:19:35,636 --> 00:19:40,556 Speaker 1: summer there was much more Asian people out for George Floyd. 349 00:19:40,676 --> 00:19:43,236 Speaker 1: But you know, prior to that, I would see very few, 350 00:19:43,476 --> 00:19:46,116 Speaker 1: you know, and um, people can argue with me or whatever. 351 00:19:46,236 --> 00:19:48,356 Speaker 1: But I was at all of these, you know, and 352 00:19:48,516 --> 00:19:51,316 Speaker 1: I was looking and I didn't see many, and it 353 00:19:51,436 --> 00:19:53,476 Speaker 1: really did sort of form a lot of my thinking 354 00:19:53,516 --> 00:19:56,516 Speaker 1: in the last five years. Right. It was just like, well, 355 00:19:57,516 --> 00:19:59,676 Speaker 1: what is all this? What is like sort of the 356 00:19:59,716 --> 00:20:02,516 Speaker 1: public face of what people say Asian American identity is 357 00:20:02,556 --> 00:20:04,596 Speaker 1: within like the press, right, they say, oh, well, it's 358 00:20:04,636 --> 00:20:09,276 Speaker 1: like a radical political identity. It's like, you know, like 359 00:20:10,036 --> 00:20:14,276 Speaker 1: we're allies, were we're fellow people of color, right, And 360 00:20:14,276 --> 00:20:16,636 Speaker 1: I'd be like, well where are you? You know, like, 361 00:20:16,956 --> 00:20:19,596 Speaker 1: um like why are you not showing up? Where are 362 00:20:19,636 --> 00:20:22,556 Speaker 1: all of you? And um, you know, it made me 363 00:20:22,596 --> 00:20:25,596 Speaker 1: realize that like the people who say those things are 364 00:20:25,676 --> 00:20:27,316 Speaker 1: saying them in earnest and I bet a lot of 365 00:20:27,316 --> 00:20:29,156 Speaker 1: them did go to a lot of those protests, you know, 366 00:20:29,596 --> 00:20:33,356 Speaker 1: but it's a very small population, and the fast majority 367 00:20:33,396 --> 00:20:36,396 Speaker 1: of Asian America people who are either recent immigrants or 368 00:20:36,396 --> 00:20:41,076 Speaker 1: people who are a political right and and yeah, I 369 00:20:41,076 --> 00:20:43,156 Speaker 1: don't know, I think it's difficult to make the argument 370 00:20:43,196 --> 00:20:45,636 Speaker 1: that the people who who sort of think of Asian 371 00:20:45,636 --> 00:20:48,796 Speaker 1: American identity as like this progressive people of color thing 372 00:20:48,916 --> 00:20:51,236 Speaker 1: or in any way, the majority they're just you know, 373 00:20:51,316 --> 00:20:53,236 Speaker 1: they're just happen to be the people who get to 374 00:20:53,276 --> 00:20:56,636 Speaker 1: talk and define that thing. And that realization I think 375 00:20:56,636 --> 00:20:59,316 Speaker 1: it has been like the most formative for my political 376 00:20:59,356 --> 00:21:01,996 Speaker 1: police at least, right, which is just like maybe we 377 00:21:02,036 --> 00:21:03,756 Speaker 1: don't have to think about this stuff. Maybe it's more 378 00:21:03,796 --> 00:21:06,596 Speaker 1: important to show up and you know, like within the 379 00:21:06,636 --> 00:21:10,276 Speaker 1: space of the protest, like all these things will be resolved. 380 00:21:10,396 --> 00:21:12,596 Speaker 1: You can make connections, you can talk to people, you 381 00:21:12,636 --> 00:21:16,076 Speaker 1: can organize with people, and that if you show up, 382 00:21:16,196 --> 00:21:18,196 Speaker 1: ninety nine percent of the people, they are not going 383 00:21:18,276 --> 00:21:21,716 Speaker 1: to worry about you know, your relative privilege or or 384 00:21:21,756 --> 00:21:24,036 Speaker 1: you know where you fit on a racial hierarchy scale 385 00:21:24,076 --> 00:21:26,756 Speaker 1: at all, Right, Like they're happy you showed up. And 386 00:21:26,796 --> 00:21:28,796 Speaker 1: I think that that's a message I tried to put 387 00:21:28,836 --> 00:21:30,596 Speaker 1: in the book because I think a lot of people, 388 00:21:30,916 --> 00:21:33,076 Speaker 1: a lot of Asian Americans like myself, who you know, 389 00:21:33,116 --> 00:21:35,676 Speaker 1: went to good schools and are upwardly mobile. I think 390 00:21:35,716 --> 00:21:37,796 Speaker 1: I just need to hear it, you know, like, don't 391 00:21:37,796 --> 00:21:40,436 Speaker 1: worry about show up. Yeah, Jay, this is really fascinating. 392 00:21:40,436 --> 00:21:42,476 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I teach at Harvard and I 393 00:21:42,116 --> 00:21:44,796 Speaker 1: see I see these kids. I mean, and many of 394 00:21:44,796 --> 00:21:47,916 Speaker 1: them were born here. Some of them aren't into the country. 395 00:21:48,556 --> 00:21:52,996 Speaker 1: But to your point about feeling uncomfortable with this notion 396 00:21:53,156 --> 00:21:55,596 Speaker 1: of a shared people of color identity is a very 397 00:21:55,636 --> 00:21:57,276 Speaker 1: real thing, and I think your book does a good 398 00:21:57,316 --> 00:21:59,876 Speaker 1: job of that. I think it would be helpful for me, though, 399 00:21:59,916 --> 00:22:04,596 Speaker 1: to understand, like, how before nineteen sixty five, for those immigrants, 400 00:22:04,676 --> 00:22:07,476 Speaker 1: as compared to the kids we're talking about that I teach, 401 00:22:07,676 --> 00:22:10,116 Speaker 1: or yourself, or the people you want to show up 402 00:22:10,116 --> 00:22:14,716 Speaker 1: at these protests, how should we understand this difference between 403 00:22:14,756 --> 00:22:18,356 Speaker 1: the four nineteen sixty five and after nineteen sixty five. Yeah, 404 00:22:18,476 --> 00:22:20,876 Speaker 1: So in nineteen sixty census, there's like something like eight 405 00:22:20,956 --> 00:22:25,036 Speaker 1: hundred thousand people who are called Asians in this country, right, 406 00:22:25,036 --> 00:22:29,516 Speaker 1: and many of them have been here for generations, right. 407 00:22:29,556 --> 00:22:31,916 Speaker 1: And the reason why there's not more is because it's 408 00:22:32,076 --> 00:22:35,356 Speaker 1: you know, there's exclusion laws. It's basically impossible to immigrate 409 00:22:35,396 --> 00:22:38,636 Speaker 1: from Asia to the United States. And so you have 410 00:22:38,756 --> 00:22:41,316 Speaker 1: this community, like a lot of them have been interned, 411 00:22:41,596 --> 00:22:45,836 Speaker 1: right by the time the sixties roll around, and it's 412 00:22:45,876 --> 00:22:48,476 Speaker 1: a small community. They've direct links back to a lot 413 00:22:48,476 --> 00:22:50,996 Speaker 1: of the campaigns of like racial terror that were inflicted 414 00:22:51,076 --> 00:22:54,796 Speaker 1: upon Chinese people. All this stuff happened, and then what 415 00:22:54,916 --> 00:22:57,116 Speaker 1: you have in ninety sixty five, you have you at 416 00:22:57,476 --> 00:23:00,996 Speaker 1: the heartseller Immigration Act, and now you have more than 417 00:23:01,036 --> 00:23:05,996 Speaker 1: twenty million Asian people in America and the fastest growing yeah, right, population, 418 00:23:06,156 --> 00:23:09,356 Speaker 1: fast growing population, people from all sorts of countries right 419 00:23:09,796 --> 00:23:13,636 Speaker 1: coming in. You know the boundaries what Asian America is 420 00:23:13,676 --> 00:23:17,756 Speaker 1: expand every single day, right. And you have populations that 421 00:23:17,756 --> 00:23:22,116 Speaker 1: people don't even know about, right, like um like mong population, 422 00:23:22,276 --> 00:23:25,436 Speaker 1: or you have like Laosian populations. And you know, if 423 00:23:25,436 --> 00:23:27,796 Speaker 1: you ask people on the street what's Asian, what is 424 00:23:27,836 --> 00:23:30,516 Speaker 1: Asian America mean, They're mostly gonna just say Chinese, Japanese 425 00:23:30,596 --> 00:23:34,356 Speaker 1: or whatever, maybe sometimes Korean Korea or Korean and so 426 00:23:34,556 --> 00:23:39,836 Speaker 1: the boundaries are have expanded just drastically since then. And 427 00:23:39,876 --> 00:23:41,876 Speaker 1: so one of the questions that I asked is, just like, 428 00:23:42,316 --> 00:23:45,076 Speaker 1: it's a history that those people prior to nineteen sixty 429 00:23:45,116 --> 00:23:50,756 Speaker 1: five define themselves through internment exclusion, right, does it really 430 00:23:50,796 --> 00:23:52,716 Speaker 1: have that much relevance to the people who came post 431 00:23:52,756 --> 00:23:55,076 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty five? Do the stories from the past 432 00:23:55,116 --> 00:23:58,876 Speaker 1: have any irrelevance to the masses of people who come afterwards? 433 00:23:59,316 --> 00:24:01,916 Speaker 1: And how do they think about themselves in America? Right? 434 00:24:01,916 --> 00:24:04,276 Speaker 1: And I think they think about themselves in America very differently. 435 00:24:04,316 --> 00:24:06,036 Speaker 1: I think they're much more like my parents, who are 436 00:24:06,076 --> 00:24:08,436 Speaker 1: just sort of like, put your head down, work, you know, 437 00:24:08,516 --> 00:24:11,036 Speaker 1: don't think of about it. You're in America now, you know, 438 00:24:11,476 --> 00:24:15,076 Speaker 1: try and fit in and try and be successful, right, 439 00:24:15,116 --> 00:24:17,316 Speaker 1: And these are the ways that you can be successful. 440 00:24:17,796 --> 00:24:20,396 Speaker 1: We can't help you all that much, you know, because 441 00:24:20,436 --> 00:24:22,876 Speaker 1: we don't know, we have no social capital here, right. 442 00:24:22,996 --> 00:24:25,876 Speaker 1: And so what's strange is that there's now this disconnect 443 00:24:25,876 --> 00:24:28,876 Speaker 1: where the way that Asian American history is told, or 444 00:24:28,916 --> 00:24:31,796 Speaker 1: Asian American identity is formed, it's very much based in 445 00:24:31,876 --> 00:24:35,276 Speaker 1: things like the Chinese Exclusion Act, right, like you saw 446 00:24:35,316 --> 00:24:38,516 Speaker 1: when the women get killed in the spa in Atlanta. 447 00:24:38,756 --> 00:24:41,836 Speaker 1: Like everybody's doing threads about Asian American history, right, and 448 00:24:41,916 --> 00:24:44,716 Speaker 1: it's it's about internment stuff like that. And my thought 449 00:24:44,836 --> 00:24:47,636 Speaker 1: is always just like I'm not that stuff is bad, 450 00:24:48,116 --> 00:24:51,516 Speaker 1: you know, like it was. It was it was like 451 00:24:51,556 --> 00:24:55,956 Speaker 1: a regime of white terror against Asian people, Right, What 452 00:24:56,356 --> 00:24:58,756 Speaker 1: does that really have like a full on connection with 453 00:24:58,796 --> 00:25:02,676 Speaker 1: people who who have no no lineage to that out 454 00:25:02,756 --> 00:25:05,356 Speaker 1: at all. Right, And so I think that's sort of 455 00:25:05,356 --> 00:25:06,956 Speaker 1: the point that I try and make in the book, 456 00:25:06,956 --> 00:25:09,236 Speaker 1: which is just like this is a pretty formless group 457 00:25:09,356 --> 00:25:12,956 Speaker 1: people at this point, right, and that, um, they can 458 00:25:13,036 --> 00:25:15,196 Speaker 1: really be anything. But what the thing that they're not 459 00:25:15,356 --> 00:25:17,956 Speaker 1: really is like a fully formed people in any sort 460 00:25:17,956 --> 00:25:20,116 Speaker 1: of way. Yeah, right, They're not cohesive yet, because I 461 00:25:20,156 --> 00:25:26,356 Speaker 1: think to your point, the assimilationists imperatives of post sixty 462 00:25:26,356 --> 00:25:30,956 Speaker 1: five immigrants, the ones who are coming today, I agree 463 00:25:31,036 --> 00:25:34,916 Speaker 1: with you, creates this huge knowledge vacuum. And I think 464 00:25:34,956 --> 00:25:36,956 Speaker 1: part of what you're writing about in this book is 465 00:25:37,116 --> 00:25:41,076 Speaker 1: is kind of what that means for justice? Yeah? Yeah, 466 00:25:41,116 --> 00:25:44,276 Speaker 1: And I'll say, like you know, the book is fascinating 467 00:25:44,436 --> 00:25:49,036 Speaker 1: and the storytelling is amazing. Your mom on trips taking 468 00:25:49,036 --> 00:25:51,676 Speaker 1: out the phone book and looking for Korean names, right, 469 00:25:51,876 --> 00:25:54,756 Speaker 1: and then and then actually calling those people and then 470 00:25:54,756 --> 00:25:58,076 Speaker 1: like getting together with right. Yeah, they're just like sort 471 00:25:58,116 --> 00:26:01,276 Speaker 1: of asking like, hey, you are right here? You know 472 00:26:01,276 --> 00:26:05,116 Speaker 1: what I'm just meaning, like, you know that's a Yeah. 473 00:26:05,156 --> 00:26:08,796 Speaker 1: It was definitely a cringe moment for me and my 474 00:26:08,836 --> 00:26:14,516 Speaker 1: sis and what are you doing? Yeah, But now that 475 00:26:14,556 --> 00:26:16,676 Speaker 1: I'm older, I understand it much better. You know, she 476 00:26:16,756 --> 00:26:21,116 Speaker 1: must have felt very unsettled when my dad dragged us 477 00:26:21,116 --> 00:26:23,356 Speaker 1: all out to like the you know, the barons of 478 00:26:23,396 --> 00:26:27,996 Speaker 1: the West every summer, being like right, this is like Wyoming, right, Wyoming, Montana, 479 00:26:28,116 --> 00:26:31,796 Speaker 1: North Dakota South, Like is there are only vacations like 480 00:26:31,876 --> 00:26:35,116 Speaker 1: we didn't go to I don't know, normal vacations. Man, 481 00:26:35,156 --> 00:26:38,996 Speaker 1: I love your parents, but can we talk about you 482 00:26:39,036 --> 00:26:41,236 Speaker 1: as a parent. You also open and close the book 483 00:26:41,276 --> 00:26:45,596 Speaker 1: writing about your daughter, and your daughter is biracial, your 484 00:26:45,676 --> 00:26:50,156 Speaker 1: your your wife is white. And I'll also make a 485 00:26:50,196 --> 00:26:53,996 Speaker 1: plug half Jewish and also my children are by racial 486 00:26:54,556 --> 00:26:57,556 Speaker 1: And it is such an interesting sort of you know, 487 00:26:57,596 --> 00:27:01,116 Speaker 1: opening up to identity because you don't share a certain 488 00:27:01,196 --> 00:27:03,716 Speaker 1: kind of identity with the person who is closest to 489 00:27:03,716 --> 00:27:06,836 Speaker 1: you in the world, and and so there's a lot 490 00:27:06,876 --> 00:27:09,476 Speaker 1: of reflection that that causes. And maybe early on because 491 00:27:09,556 --> 00:27:11,556 Speaker 1: later you're just like I'm just trying to deal with 492 00:27:11,596 --> 00:27:13,756 Speaker 1: being a parent, but early on like where you are, 493 00:27:13,876 --> 00:27:16,316 Speaker 1: like you're really you're deep in at thinking these thoughts 494 00:27:16,316 --> 00:27:18,836 Speaker 1: like will my child have an experience that it's different 495 00:27:18,836 --> 00:27:21,356 Speaker 1: than mine? Yeah, I mean that's sort of the emotional 496 00:27:21,396 --> 00:27:23,596 Speaker 1: core of the book, right, It's sort of a rumination 497 00:27:23,716 --> 00:27:26,956 Speaker 1: on why why did this happen to me, you know 498 00:27:27,276 --> 00:27:30,276 Speaker 1: and other Asian people? And then what's the future going 499 00:27:30,356 --> 00:27:33,556 Speaker 1: to look like right now that people are in this 500 00:27:33,596 --> 00:27:35,916 Speaker 1: path of assimilation or if they are on this path 501 00:27:35,956 --> 00:27:39,676 Speaker 1: of assimilation, and and who are the people who are 502 00:27:39,716 --> 00:27:41,996 Speaker 1: not on the path of assimilation? What are their lives 503 00:27:41,996 --> 00:27:44,196 Speaker 1: going to look like? And so for my daughter, I 504 00:27:44,316 --> 00:27:46,716 Speaker 1: think about him, like, you know, she's we live here 505 00:27:46,756 --> 00:27:49,436 Speaker 1: in the East Bay, and you know, there's a ton 506 00:27:49,476 --> 00:27:54,236 Speaker 1: of half Asian kids running around, right, And she goes 507 00:27:54,316 --> 00:27:57,676 Speaker 1: to a school where there are way more half Asian 508 00:27:57,716 --> 00:27:59,956 Speaker 1: kids than there were Asian kids period in any school 509 00:27:59,956 --> 00:28:01,236 Speaker 1: I ever went too, And there are a lot of 510 00:28:01,276 --> 00:28:04,996 Speaker 1: Asian kids too, right, And I remember the teacher at 511 00:28:05,076 --> 00:28:07,196 Speaker 1: some point. You know, this is I think during Pride 512 00:28:07,236 --> 00:28:09,916 Speaker 1: Week or something like that, like said to me, you know, 513 00:28:09,956 --> 00:28:11,676 Speaker 1: she's like, I just want to raise like a bunch 514 00:28:11,676 --> 00:28:14,596 Speaker 1: of allies, right, like I want these kids to be allies. 515 00:28:14,996 --> 00:28:16,556 Speaker 1: And it's very you know, like in my head, it 516 00:28:16,636 --> 00:28:19,236 Speaker 1: kind of fucked me up because I was like, ally, yeah, 517 00:28:20,756 --> 00:28:23,356 Speaker 1: it's like I am not white, you know, like like 518 00:28:23,396 --> 00:28:25,596 Speaker 1: if somebody had told me, like, you know, like you 519 00:28:25,636 --> 00:28:27,516 Speaker 1: need to be an ally, I would be like listen, 520 00:28:27,556 --> 00:28:29,796 Speaker 1: you know, like I'm I'm not white, you know, like 521 00:28:29,876 --> 00:28:32,116 Speaker 1: let me tell you, like you need you need to 522 00:28:32,156 --> 00:28:34,596 Speaker 1: a lie with me. Right. My child who was like 523 00:28:34,916 --> 00:28:38,436 Speaker 1: not great, you know, like because I am not white, 524 00:28:38,516 --> 00:28:40,676 Speaker 1: you know. But then I think about it just like 525 00:28:40,716 --> 00:28:43,996 Speaker 1: maybe she's right, you know, like maybe you know, I'm 526 00:28:44,036 --> 00:28:45,716 Speaker 1: sure Ben you had these thoughts too. Or it's just 527 00:28:45,756 --> 00:28:49,516 Speaker 1: like like, is the stuff that I write, you know, 528 00:28:49,596 --> 00:28:51,956 Speaker 1: it's the stuff that I think about, I talked about 529 00:28:51,996 --> 00:28:54,476 Speaker 1: in myself, is going to be relatable to her, right, 530 00:28:54,556 --> 00:28:57,396 Speaker 1: Like is she gonna think about things in the same way? Yeah? Yeah, 531 00:28:57,516 --> 00:29:02,356 Speaker 1: it's interesting you have such a contrarian persona online right 532 00:29:02,716 --> 00:29:05,156 Speaker 1: and and and you know, I mean maybe that is 533 00:29:05,196 --> 00:29:07,396 Speaker 1: inherently part of you. But it also feels, you know, 534 00:29:07,436 --> 00:29:11,836 Speaker 1: it's so forward on and everything you post and that, 535 00:29:11,916 --> 00:29:14,756 Speaker 1: as you said, is like this emotional core and rawness 536 00:29:15,196 --> 00:29:18,876 Speaker 1: and openness you know, it has it has none of that. 537 00:29:19,636 --> 00:29:23,276 Speaker 1: Well I was I was thinking though that, I mean, 538 00:29:23,396 --> 00:29:27,756 Speaker 1: your dilemma, which you so you're so expressive about, you know, 539 00:29:27,876 --> 00:29:30,116 Speaker 1: because you're like, you know, I don't want my daughter 540 00:29:30,876 --> 00:29:33,356 Speaker 1: to be entitled, you know, I don't want to raise 541 00:29:33,596 --> 00:29:35,916 Speaker 1: a spoiled kid. I mean, these are your words, right, 542 00:29:36,476 --> 00:29:38,956 Speaker 1: And it seems to me, like Ben and I have 543 00:29:38,996 --> 00:29:43,116 Speaker 1: talked about this on this show a lot, but we 544 00:29:43,276 --> 00:29:46,356 Speaker 1: as parents do make a choice. We make a choice 545 00:29:46,396 --> 00:29:48,636 Speaker 1: about what we teach our kids about the world we 546 00:29:48,676 --> 00:29:52,756 Speaker 1: live in. And you know, I'm wondering, just as a 547 00:29:52,756 --> 00:29:56,556 Speaker 1: final reflection, like, are you teaching your daughter the things 548 00:29:56,556 --> 00:29:59,076 Speaker 1: that you're writing about, because that seems to me to 549 00:29:59,156 --> 00:30:03,316 Speaker 1: be a very different reality for her than what happened 550 00:30:03,316 --> 00:30:06,476 Speaker 1: to you when your parents didn't talk to you about 551 00:30:06,476 --> 00:30:10,516 Speaker 1: these things. Well, she's she's she's about to turn five, 552 00:30:11,516 --> 00:30:14,396 Speaker 1: and so it's right about the time when these conversations start, 553 00:30:14,676 --> 00:30:19,476 Speaker 1: you know, And um, yeah, I think so, you know, 554 00:30:19,836 --> 00:30:22,276 Speaker 1: and I think that that I would like her to 555 00:30:22,316 --> 00:30:24,436 Speaker 1: be aware of it in a way. Now she turns 556 00:30:24,436 --> 00:30:27,476 Speaker 1: into like your sort of stereotypical, like you know, bleeding 557 00:30:27,516 --> 00:30:34,036 Speaker 1: heart liberal Berkeley kid. I'd be overjoyed. I'd be so happy, 558 00:30:34,156 --> 00:30:37,556 Speaker 1: you know. But um, yeah, you know here in Berkeley 559 00:30:37,636 --> 00:30:41,236 Speaker 1: we have a huge homeless population, right, and you know, like, 560 00:30:41,356 --> 00:30:44,556 Speaker 1: uh does not understand why people live in tense right, 561 00:30:44,756 --> 00:30:48,556 Speaker 1: And those conversations are starting. I had a friend come 562 00:30:48,556 --> 00:30:51,716 Speaker 1: over at some point, and I probably shouldn't tell this story, 563 00:30:51,716 --> 00:30:54,476 Speaker 1: but it's almost it's kind of a little funny, you know. 564 00:30:54,556 --> 00:30:57,156 Speaker 1: But she had a friend coming in the middle of 565 00:30:57,156 --> 00:30:59,116 Speaker 1: the pandemic, and no one had been in our house 566 00:30:59,156 --> 00:31:01,076 Speaker 1: in a long time. And first when first people come 567 00:31:01,116 --> 00:31:03,676 Speaker 1: to our house is one of my friends who's black, 568 00:31:03,956 --> 00:31:07,756 Speaker 1: and she goes like he walks in and she says 569 00:31:07,996 --> 00:31:13,916 Speaker 1: he's black. I was like, ohoh, you know, like it 570 00:31:13,996 --> 00:31:16,836 Speaker 1: wasn't because she had not been around black people before, 571 00:31:16,996 --> 00:31:18,956 Speaker 1: you know, but I think that she had been learning 572 00:31:18,996 --> 00:31:21,476 Speaker 1: at school that there was this you know, like because 573 00:31:21,516 --> 00:31:24,196 Speaker 1: they learned about civil rights movement everything like that, and 574 00:31:24,236 --> 00:31:25,996 Speaker 1: I think that it had been this moment where she 575 00:31:26,116 --> 00:31:29,076 Speaker 1: like was starting to differentiate people. And you know, when 576 00:31:29,076 --> 00:31:31,236 Speaker 1: we lived in New York. I lived in Crown Heights. 577 00:31:31,436 --> 00:31:34,836 Speaker 1: You know, she goes to U preschool everything like that, 578 00:31:34,836 --> 00:31:37,516 Speaker 1: where like you know, like thirty the kids in her 579 00:31:37,516 --> 00:31:39,116 Speaker 1: class are black, and so it's not like she had 580 00:31:39,116 --> 00:31:40,916 Speaker 1: not been around black people before, but it was this 581 00:31:40,956 --> 00:31:43,156 Speaker 1: moment where you know, something had clicked in her head 582 00:31:43,476 --> 00:31:45,716 Speaker 1: and so yeah, we had to talk then too, you know. 583 00:31:45,836 --> 00:31:49,916 Speaker 1: But it's Jay Jay that is that's such a beautiful 584 00:31:49,916 --> 00:31:52,316 Speaker 1: story because you know, for me as a parent, my 585 00:31:52,396 --> 00:31:55,916 Speaker 1: kids are older, my wife and I committed very early 586 00:31:55,996 --> 00:31:59,236 Speaker 1: onto teaching them, but even we made mistakes. And by that, 587 00:31:59,356 --> 00:32:02,236 Speaker 1: I mean we didn't talk about Asians like we talked 588 00:32:02,236 --> 00:32:05,516 Speaker 1: about black white and the consequences of that was that 589 00:32:05,596 --> 00:32:08,956 Speaker 1: we were living My youngest daughter was born Indiana, were 590 00:32:09,116 --> 00:32:12,636 Speaker 1: having in a community with a large population of Asian students, 591 00:32:12,676 --> 00:32:16,556 Speaker 1: many of whom were immigrant students. And one day babysitter 592 00:32:16,636 --> 00:32:20,556 Speaker 1: has are like four year old kid on the bus, 593 00:32:20,556 --> 00:32:23,996 Speaker 1: the campus bus, which was not a common experience for her. 594 00:32:24,076 --> 00:32:26,276 Speaker 1: But she's on a campus bus and she turns to 595 00:32:26,396 --> 00:32:29,236 Speaker 1: her babysitter and says, why are there so many Asian 596 00:32:29,276 --> 00:32:33,236 Speaker 1: people on this bus? Right? Right? Right? So you know, 597 00:32:33,316 --> 00:32:37,276 Speaker 1: like that's an invitation right to parenting and to having 598 00:32:37,316 --> 00:32:41,876 Speaker 1: a conversation. We are just so grateful for you spending 599 00:32:41,916 --> 00:32:44,196 Speaker 1: time with us today, and we're going to count you 600 00:32:44,596 --> 00:32:47,516 Speaker 1: among our best friends. Jay, So thanks for thanks for 601 00:32:47,556 --> 00:32:51,316 Speaker 1: spending time with us. Jay. Oh good, now, this is great. 602 00:32:59,196 --> 00:33:02,196 Speaker 1: I think I think talking to him, I appreciated so 603 00:33:02,316 --> 00:33:06,276 Speaker 1: much his openness with us and how experiences from his 604 00:33:06,476 --> 00:33:10,876 Speaker 1: childhood are still he's still processing them, and you know, 605 00:33:10,916 --> 00:33:12,516 Speaker 1: I feel the same way. I feel the same way 606 00:33:12,516 --> 00:33:15,276 Speaker 1: about my past, Like it's still I'm still wrestling with 607 00:33:15,316 --> 00:33:17,796 Speaker 1: different ideas and thinking about wrestling with no doubt you 608 00:33:17,796 --> 00:33:20,156 Speaker 1: to talk about that some more. But but but I 609 00:33:20,156 --> 00:33:23,076 Speaker 1: also think like if the book was only his personal 610 00:33:23,156 --> 00:33:27,916 Speaker 1: individual experiences, it wouldn't work right, Like, like he is 611 00:33:27,956 --> 00:33:31,756 Speaker 1: just one person, but he tells this story about himself, 612 00:33:32,036 --> 00:33:33,836 Speaker 1: and it is a kind of coming of age story 613 00:33:33,836 --> 00:33:37,316 Speaker 1: and a coming of age story racially, but also an 614 00:33:37,356 --> 00:33:40,836 Speaker 1: intellectual coming of age story because he tells a story 615 00:33:40,836 --> 00:33:44,316 Speaker 1: of thinking. You know, he cakes all this personal stuff 616 00:33:44,676 --> 00:33:48,836 Speaker 1: and history and research and other flashpoint moments that are 617 00:33:48,876 --> 00:33:51,516 Speaker 1: really important for an Asian community in the United States. 618 00:33:51,756 --> 00:33:53,596 Speaker 1: I think I think that works. But I think the 619 00:33:53,636 --> 00:33:55,436 Speaker 1: word I would use would not be intellectual. I think 620 00:33:55,436 --> 00:33:57,596 Speaker 1: it would be political. One of the things that stuck 621 00:33:57,636 --> 00:33:59,636 Speaker 1: out to me is when he talked about, both in 622 00:33:59,676 --> 00:34:02,276 Speaker 1: the book and a little bit in our conversation that 623 00:34:02,396 --> 00:34:05,996 Speaker 1: you know, who is really speaking for the people working 624 00:34:06,156 --> 00:34:12,036 Speaker 1: in low wage retail nail salon laundering restaurants today, who's 625 00:34:12,076 --> 00:34:14,996 Speaker 1: really speaking for them? And what he's basically saying is 626 00:34:15,036 --> 00:34:17,396 Speaker 1: in my community, not a whole lot of us. Yeah, 627 00:34:17,436 --> 00:34:20,596 Speaker 1: And he's saying their politics don't align necessarily, but we 628 00:34:20,756 --> 00:34:23,196 Speaker 1: have to find this common ground. And that, to me, 629 00:34:23,276 --> 00:34:25,676 Speaker 1: that was a really powerful part of the book. That 630 00:34:25,876 --> 00:34:28,236 Speaker 1: is an especially powerful part of the book because that's 631 00:34:28,276 --> 00:34:31,596 Speaker 1: so much about what you and I are really committed to. 632 00:34:31,796 --> 00:34:35,596 Speaker 1: We're committed to the work that we do individually and 633 00:34:35,676 --> 00:34:39,676 Speaker 1: this show collectively, because these issues that we face should 634 00:34:39,676 --> 00:34:42,276 Speaker 1: be all of ours to tackle. Yeah. Yeah. Jay opens 635 00:34:42,316 --> 00:34:45,116 Speaker 1: the book by saying he's not going to provide all 636 00:34:45,116 --> 00:34:47,596 Speaker 1: the answers, but he really is going to engage with 637 00:34:47,636 --> 00:34:51,556 Speaker 1: a lot of these questions, and he totally succeeds in that. Like, 638 00:34:51,676 --> 00:34:54,356 Speaker 1: I am deeply immersed in this topic now from reading 639 00:34:54,396 --> 00:34:57,076 Speaker 1: the book and thinking about it a lot, and wrestling 640 00:34:57,116 --> 00:35:00,676 Speaker 1: with these questions and I definitely recommend people to dive 641 00:35:00,676 --> 00:35:03,396 Speaker 1: into this book as well. Yeah, and the truth is that, 642 00:35:04,076 --> 00:35:06,996 Speaker 1: probably for the first time in many ways, I am 643 00:35:07,076 --> 00:35:11,156 Speaker 1: much more sensitive to and aware of many more communities 644 00:35:11,316 --> 00:35:13,436 Speaker 1: that I need to care as much about as I 645 00:35:13,476 --> 00:35:15,956 Speaker 1: care about my own. I think that's really that's a 646 00:35:16,036 --> 00:35:18,596 Speaker 1: value to the book. So yeah, that's a powerful point. 647 00:35:18,996 --> 00:35:29,316 Speaker 1: All right, man, love you, Love you too. Some of 648 00:35:29,356 --> 00:35:32,716 Speaker 1: My Best Friends Are is a production of Pushkin Industries. 649 00:35:33,076 --> 00:35:36,436 Speaker 1: The show is written and hosted by me Khalilibron Mohammed 650 00:35:36,556 --> 00:35:39,516 Speaker 1: and my best friend Ben Austin. It's produced by Sheriff 651 00:35:39,556 --> 00:35:44,796 Speaker 1: Vincent and edited by Karen Shakerjee. Our engineer is Martin Gonzalez. 652 00:35:45,236 --> 00:35:49,396 Speaker 1: Our associate editor is Keishell Williams, Our associate producer is 653 00:35:49,476 --> 00:35:53,876 Speaker 1: Lucy Sullivan, and our showrunner is Sasha Matthias. Our executive 654 00:35:53,876 --> 00:35:57,956 Speaker 1: producers are Leeta Molad and Mia La Belle. Special thanks 655 00:35:57,996 --> 00:36:02,396 Speaker 1: to Jay Caspian Kang. He's our newest best friend and 656 00:36:02,716 --> 00:36:05,316 Speaker 1: you should check out his book, The Loneliest Americans and 657 00:36:05,356 --> 00:36:08,556 Speaker 1: also subscribe to his New York Times newsletter at Pushkin. 658 00:36:08,716 --> 00:36:13,436 Speaker 1: Thanks to Heather Faine, Carley Migliori, John Schnars, and Jacob Weisberg. 659 00:36:14,036 --> 00:36:17,756 Speaker 1: Our theme song, Little Lily, is by fellow chicagoan AVERYR. 660 00:36:17,876 --> 00:36:21,276 Speaker 1: Young from his amazing album Tubman. You will definitely want 661 00:36:21,276 --> 00:36:23,516 Speaker 1: to check out more of his music at his website 662 00:36:23,716 --> 00:36:27,636 Speaker 1: averyryng dot com. You can find Pushkin on all social 663 00:36:27,676 --> 00:36:30,596 Speaker 1: platforms at Pushkin pods, and you can sign up for 664 00:36:30,636 --> 00:36:34,916 Speaker 1: our newsletter at pushkin dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, 665 00:36:35,196 --> 00:36:39,396 Speaker 1: listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 666 00:36:39,516 --> 00:36:41,996 Speaker 1: like to listen. If you love some of my best 667 00:36:41,996 --> 00:36:45,276 Speaker 1: friends are in any of the other shows from Pushkin Industries, 668 00:36:45,956 --> 00:36:51,556 Speaker 1: consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast 669 00:36:51,796 --> 00:36:56,356 Speaker 1: subscription that offers bonus content and uninterrupted listening for four 670 00:36:56,396 --> 00:36:58,956 Speaker 1: dollars and ninety nine cents a month. Look for Pushkin 671 00:36:58,996 --> 00:37:28,036 Speaker 1: Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions. And I just want to say, Khalil, 672 00:37:28,796 --> 00:37:31,476 Speaker 1: you just proved that argument about somebody who's connected to 673 00:37:31,476 --> 00:37:33,436 Speaker 1: Harvard will bring it up in the first fifteen minutes 674 00:37:33,436 --> 00:37:39,716 Speaker 1: of the conversation, because I didn't actually say no, that's 675 00:37:39,876 --> 00:37:43,316 Speaker 1: I brought it on first. I see it's what little 676 00:37:43,396 --> 00:37:46,556 Speaker 1: you know about Cambridge has more than just Harvard. How 677 00:37:46,556 --> 00:37:46,996 Speaker 1: about that