WEBVTT - Chapter 6 | Know That I Know 0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:14.040 What'd you think of Jeremy when you. 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:20.880 When at first, man, I thought he was cute. 0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:25.360 He was cute, he was dangerous, iad. 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:32.040 This is Jamie Nellams. She was Jeremy Scott's girlfriend in 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:35.760 nineteen eighty seven and nineteen eighty eight. They were both 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:38.560 seventeen years old when they met at a teen dance 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:43.080 club in Lakeland, Florida. This was right after Jeremy was 0:00:43.120 --> 0:00:46.159 acquitted in the Jule Johnson murder, and then he and 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:49.199 Jamie stayed together until his arrest in the murder of 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:55.040 Donald Morehead. Sixteen years into Jeremy's murder sentence, a detective 0:00:55.080 --> 0:01:00.200 from the Polk County Sheriff's Office contacted Jamie. Jeremy's finger 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:02.800 prints had been matched to the ones found in Michelle 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:08.760 Schofield's Mazda, but the investigation didn't last long. Assistant State 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:12.680 Attorney John Aguero, the same man who prosecuted and convicted 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:16.880 both Leo and Jeremy, quickly shuts down the investigation into 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:22.600 Jeremy Scott. Ten months after Jamie is first questioned, criminal 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:26.160 defense attorney Richard Bartman interviews her in late two thousand 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:31.760 and five. Bartman is representing Leo Schofield alongside his other attorney, 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:36.360 Scott Cupp. They're trying to finish the investigation into Jeremy 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:38.920 Scott that the state barely started. 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:42.360 So you remember speaking to this detective. What was the 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:43.400 reason he said he was there. 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:46.880 He that he needed to come talk with me regarding 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:50.760 Jeremy Scott, anything else that he told you that he 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:54.000 was there. He wanted me to take him to places 0:01:54.840 --> 0:01:58.360 Jeremy now that I knew of. He had asked me 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:00.919 where we had never gone to be alone. 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:02.040 And I told him. 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:04.680 About this place over off off thirty three by I 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:06.840 tour if he wanted me to take him there, to 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:08.280 show him where that was at. 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:09.399 And I did that. 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:14.400 Jamie says that ten months earlier, she led the state's 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:17.840 detective to a place along State Road thirty three in 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:22.040 North Lakeland. Now she's telling Richard Bartman what it was 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:26.120 like when Jeremy first took her there. It was around 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:30.360 two am in the spring of nineteen eighty seven. Jamie 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:34.639 was driving and Jeremy was in the passenger seat directing her. 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:39.520 He told me where to drive. I had just started 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:42.880 driving and barely knew how to get around my hound, 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:45.880 let alone how to get anywhere else. So he told 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:46.840 me where to turn and. 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:51.920 Did he have any trouble finding. 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:56.000 Now he knew that you couldn't find us that you knew. 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:56.480 What's that? 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:02.200 Jeremy tells her when to slow down, to turn off 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:06.880 at the cut, to pull onto the dirt path back 0:03:06.960 --> 0:03:12.160 behind the tree line. There's palmetto bushes and garbage on 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:16.600 the ground. No one else is back there. There's no 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:20.480 street lights, no houses in sight, and no cars on 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:25.359 the road either. Jeremy and Jamie are alone. 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:29.320 We had this saying about being outside. 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:31.280 He liked to be outside. 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:34.000 You liked to be outside. 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:39.680 When Jamie and Jeremy get out of the car and 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:44.200 walk further from the main road into the dark. 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:46.480 When you got there, what what was your impression? 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:48.160 Year in first time you went. 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:52.160 Then dirty and cold and you. 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:54.240 Know, dark. 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:57.720 I remember being nervous because there was nobody around. 0:03:58.720 --> 0:03:59.480 I didn't like it. 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:04.840 Teenagers would come to the spot along State Road thirty 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:09.800 three to drink beer, smoke weed and make out, but 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:13.880 Jamie had been worn to stay away. After police began 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:18.480 discovering dead girls in the water behind the palmetto bushes. 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:24.799 One of those girls, Michelle Schofield, was found floating face 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:29.320 down just a few months earlier in this very same 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:30.560 drainage canal. 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:39.479 Do you. 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:44.680 My mans. 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:48.280 Have to have my field. 0:04:50.600 --> 0:05:14.480 Soru steps siremists in this vast tea see relation abrege 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:19.640 dansish to. 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:23.120 The world, sounding stuff. 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:35.719 To the bone, sold things sum. 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:54.679 Things bone Valley, Chapter six. 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:56.400 Know that I know. 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:05.600 We talked to Leo's lawyer, Richard Bartman, more than fifteen 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:09.080 years after he interviewed Jamie Nellams, and I. 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:12.240 Remember a chilling up my spine which he described what 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:14.760 this guy had done to her and. 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:17.800 The level of fear in this woman when we've interviewed her. 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:20.159 I can't. I've never forgotten that. 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:25.280 Jamie tells Bartman that the violence began just weeks into 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:30.960 her relationship with Jeremy Scott. There's punching, choking, and worse. 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:34.960 She tells Bartman that Jeremy hit her pretty much every 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:35.920 time she saw him. 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:39.840 He Hitney, would crossed the pate with a belt before 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:41.120 he Hitney. 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:43.320 Was one of my babes before. 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:48.360 He and he was a baseball bat one. 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:53.000 Jamie had gone to Disney World with her sisters against 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:58.880 Jeremy's wishes. When she returned, he walked her outside picked 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:02.880 up a baseball bat and swung at her face, and 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:09.240 that was eddy. The blow from the baseball bat left 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:14.160 her jaw broken and her face disfigured. Her injuries and 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:18.640 her story left a big impression on Richard Bartman. He 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:20.120 still thinks about it today. 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:24.160 And you saw her face and what Scott did to it. 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:25.920 And this was years later. 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:28.880 Because she didn't have the money to get her injuries fixed, 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:31.800 so he had beaten her to such an extent that 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:33.360 her jaw was deformed. 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:37.960 Jamie was convinced that Jeremy was going to kill her, 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:44.520 but instead Jeremy directed his violence at someone else. On 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:49.560 Halloween Night in nineteen eighty eight, Jeremy murdered Donald moorehead. 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:54.320 He's arrested the following day and locked up without bail. 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:58.080 Jamie is finally free from Jeremy. 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:00.800 I think we talked to her for about two three 0:08:00.840 --> 0:08:05.800 hours about his way of life, about how well he 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:08.600 knew Lakeland, about how well he knew this area where 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:11.120 the body was found, About his level of violence, About 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:13.000 the way he beat up gay people, about the way 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:16.280 he beat her if she would look at him wrong, 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:19.560 He beat the shit out of her. The slightest provocation 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:23.280 he would get violent, so I could easily picture him 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:25.840 killing Michelle over whatever. 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:26.200 I mean. 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:28.960 It didn't have to be rational. And of course I 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:31.880 remember driving home from that thinking Jesus Christ, this is 0:08:31.880 --> 0:08:36.600 the guy. It matches in so many ways. 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:46.440 Richard Bartman and Scott Cupp keep gathering information about Jeremy's 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:50.360 connection to Michelle Schofield's murder. They're making the case that 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:53.920 Leo deserves a new trial. Not only do they have 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:57.160 fingerprints that linked Jeremy Scott to the vehicle Michelle was 0:08:57.240 --> 0:09:01.400 driving the night she went missing, have testimony that Jeremy 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:04.240 used to take his girlfriend Jamie to the same place 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:11.520 where Michelle's body was found. Richard Bartman could hardly believe 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:14.600 what Jamie had told him. But when Kelsey and I 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:17.440 listened to this interview, almost fifteen years after it had 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:20.360 been recorded, something else caught our attention. 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:24.040 Did he ever did. 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:27.640 Okay, Yeah, I kind of thought about that. 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:29.679 In a long time, and I'm sorry to stir it up. 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:33.720 I really do apologize, but I don't mean anything personal, 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:38.040 but it's questions I got to ask, did he ever? 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:39.720 Did he ever tell you anything? 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:42.880 Jeremy, Now, during the course of your relationship about the 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:45.720 crimes he did to criminal ax or any sort of 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:46.840 criminal activity. 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:52.640 He told me he had killed a cab driver. He 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:55.600 was sixteen seventeen at time, and that he had gotten 0:09:55.640 --> 0:10:01.480 away with it O and that was just a couple 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:06.160 months before he got arrested to his forehead thanks. 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:06.679 When he was telling me that. 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:13.960 Kelsey and I run down the list of murders that 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:18.080 Jeremy's linked to. We know that Jeremy bragged about killing 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:22.160 Juel Johnson after he was acquitted of her murder. Jewel 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:24.920 was found shot dead in a trailer behind her house. 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:30.280 Jeremy's fingerprints were lifted from her eyeglasses and coin wrappers 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:36.120 at the scene. Jewel Johnson is murder number one, and 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:39.280 Jeremy was convicted in the nineteen eighty eight murder of 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:42.720 Donald Moorehead. He smashed him over the head with a 0:10:42.760 --> 0:10:45.959 grape juice bottle and strangled him with a telephone cord. 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:51.000 Jeremy was forensically tied to that crime scene and he 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:55.439 admitted to that killing as well. Donald Moorehead is murder 0:10:55.520 --> 0:11:01.800 number two, and Jeremy's fingerprints were found inside Michelle Schofield's car. 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:06.280 Her body was discovered in the same Canal where Jeremy 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:10.160 used to take Jamie to have sex with her Michelle 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:15.320 Schofield is murder number three. But now Jamie mentions that 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:20.080 Jeremy had spontaneously confessed to another murder, the killing of 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:29.160 a taxicab driver. Is this murder number four. We don't 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:31.880 have a lot to go on, but we start digging. 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:36.320 We know that if Jeremy killed a taxicab driver, it 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:38.840 would most likely be in that two year period between 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:42.400 December nineteen eighty six, when he's released after his acquittal 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:46.160 of the Juwel Johnson murder, and Halloween of nineteen eighty eight, 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:50.240 when he's locked up for killing Donald Morehead. That matches 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:54.200 what Jamie told Bartman. Jeremy would have been sixteen or 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:59.000 seventeen at the time. We search through databases for unsolved 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:04.000 homicides and flo We combed through newspaper archives for stories 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:07.600 about cab drivers killed in central Florida between nineteen eighty 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:12.520 six and nineteen eighty eight, and then one murder catches 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:17.760 our attention. In the spring of nineteen eighty seven, right 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:20.760 near the Polk County line, a twenty five year old 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:24.880 taxi cab driver named Joseph Lavere was shot dead just 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:31.480 outside a little community called Intercession City. A suspect named 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:35.720 dan Odie was arrested and brought to trial twice, but 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:40.120 the second trial ended with the defendant's acquittal. No one 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:44.079 else is ever charged in the death of Joseph Lavere, 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:51.160 so this is an unsolved murder. From his records, we 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:53.680 know that Jeremy was not in jail at that time. 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:58.000 It happened just six weeks after Michelle Schofield was killed, 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:02.640 so we dig a little deeper. We start piecing together 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:06.000 the crime from newspaper coverage, and this is what we learn. 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:11.959 It's late at night April tenth, nineteen eighty seven. Lavere 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:14.679 is driving a taxi for the Yellow Cab Company and 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:17.120 he's close to finishing his shift when he gets a 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:20.280 call from his dispatcher directing him to pick up a 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:24.880 passenger at a kmart in Kassimi. Lavere picks up the 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:29.360 passenger around ten forty five pm, but about an hour later, 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:32.840 the cab driver's body is spotted just off the shoulder 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:37.400 of Old Tampa Highway. It seems that whoever killed Joseph 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:41.680 Lavere stole the taxi turned off the highway, crossed the 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:46.040 railroad tracks, and sped onto a quiet residential street in 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:50.480 Intercession City. He must have been driving fast, because he 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:54.280 quickly lost control of the vehicle, sideswiping a parked car 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:57.480 and crashing into a power pole that knocked out the 0:13:57.520 --> 0:14:02.320 electricity in the neighborhood. Residents ran outside to see what 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:05.000 happened and caught a glimpse of the suspect as he 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:09.000 fled the scene. The witnesses told police they'd seen a 0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:12.760 white man around five foot ten of a thin or 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:17.400 medium build running from the cab. He was wearing jeans 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:20.960 and a flannel shirt, had brown hair, and screamed it's 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:26.760 gonna blow before he disappeared into the woods. Inside the taxi, 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:31.120 deputies found a black baseball cap sitting in the back seat. 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:33.720 We were able to get our hands on a photo 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:36.760 of this cap. There's a design on the front of it, 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:41.360 a skull wearing a cowboy hat with a big Confederate 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:46.080 flag in the background. And then there's this other. Part 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:50.120 of Bartman's interview with Jamie, I replay it over and 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:54.480 over again. Jamie says that when she first met Jeremy, 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:57.880 there was something about his appearance that stood out to. 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:02.880 Her eyed a ham when I thought was weird. He 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:04.440 gnied he'd bleaching hair brown. 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:11.760 Jamie thought this was odd because Jeremy never maintained that color. Naturally, 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:15.160 his hair was brown, and when the dark roots grew 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:19.840 back in, Jamie said, he never bleached it again. She 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:24.320 and Jeremy met just before his eighteenth birthday, about a 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:29.000 week after Joseph Lavere was killed. It's a small thing, 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:31.640 but it could match up with what we know about 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:35.840 Lavere's murder. It would make sense that the suspect, knowing 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:40.600 he'd been seen, might try to change his appearance. And 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:44.080 there's another clue. In Richard Bartman's interview with Jamie, she 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:47.920 mentions that Jeremy wasn't particularly close with anyone at that time, 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:52.320 except maybe his younger brother. That brother has a pretty 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:56.440 distinct name. So we were able to track down Royal Dean. 0:15:56.320 --> 0:16:01.120 Scott to accept this call and all future plus one 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:06.040 now so the phone calls our subject to monitoring and recording. 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:12.760 You have thirty eight dollars twenty four cents, Hi, Royal. 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:17.920 Yeah, he was locked up in the Russell County Jail 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:22.320 in Alabama, awaiting transfer to state prison. On an obstruction 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:26.800 of justice charge. I sent Royal Dean a letter, told 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:29.360 him I opened a phone account with the jail and 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:30.320 gave him my number. 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:33.120 I got no problem with answering this, buddy that you 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:36.040 gotta asked somebody in allted to don't incriminate Jeremy on 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:38.680 something that's gonna hurt him. I got a problem with that. 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:42.560 I start chatting with Royal Dean pretty frequently over a 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:45.480 period of a few weeks. He calls when he can 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:49.880 and sometimes leaves voicemail messages. We talk about what Jeremy 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:53.120 was like as a kid in their family life. But 0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:56.120 I'm also trying to find out more about Jeremy's possible 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:58.000 links to the murder of Joseph Lavere. 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:01.920 Did you guys believe it? Intercession City at some point? 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:02.640 Oh? 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:07.960 Yeah, that's where me and my wife met, okay in 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:11.760 a session. City is where well man, Jeremy pretty much 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:12.199 grow up. 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:15.760 Really, I mean, did you ever hear anything, Because one 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:18.880 of the other things that Jeremy confessed to Jamie about 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:24.600 was robbing a cab driver on the way home from 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:28.359 Kasimmi towards Intercession City. Did you ever hear anything about that? 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:29.560 Yes? 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:31.880 I heard about what is that? 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:33.520 What happened? 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:34.000 Uh? 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:42.240 Wow? I'd heard about the cab driver, man Robb, but 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:45.800 I didn't I couldn't tell you. I guess about Jeremy. 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:50.800 He doesn't seem to want to go into this with me. Still, 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:55.480 Royal Dean keeps calling. We talk about his legal troubles, 0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:59.160 and I keep asking about Jeremy, hoping he shares more 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:04.120 about their time an Intercession city. And finally he lets 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:04.919 something slip. 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:09.520 I remember him saying something about robbing the cans I 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:12.120 remember my brother telling me about jumping out of a car, 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:14.119 I mean about taking that out of the money, and 0:18:14.160 --> 0:18:16.480 that something about a gun. 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:22.360 Do you remember him with blonde hair, Yeah, that would 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:25.119 be about right soon. Is he trying to change his 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:26.119 identity or something? 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:30.159 I think so. I remember the blonde hair, and I 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:32.879 remember the canserver being robbed, and I remember him saying 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:34.960 something about it, and then he had to leave for 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:37.320 the while. And see, I never got any details. I 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:39.760 just know that my brother disappeared after that. For a while. 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:48.880 After this conversation, Royal Dean disappeared too. The phone call 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:51.399 stopped coming when he was transferred to a state prison 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:57.520 outside of Montgomery. 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:02.679 I am Jason Flamm, CEO and founder of Lava for 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:06.160 Good podcasts, home to Bone Valley, Wrongful Conviction, The War 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:09.680 on Drugs, and many other great podcasts. Today we're asking you, 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:12.840 our listeners, to take part in a survey. 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Christina Dent is one 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:53.320 of many entrepreneurs partnering with Stand Together to end the 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:57.080 War on drugs, the underlying cause of many problems such 0:19:57.119 --> 0:20:01.920 as overincarceration and the criminalization of a in communities across 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:06.240 the country. As a foster mom, Christina came into contact 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:08.359 with the War on drugs when she saw how it 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:11.840 was ripping apart the family she worked with. She witnessed 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:15.200 how kids were affected and how mothers wanted something better 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:18.000 for their families but didn't have the tools to get 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:23.320 there themselves. Christina Dent started a nonprofit called End It 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:26.160 for Good because she knew there was a better solution 0:20:26.320 --> 0:20:30.040 to help these families. She's working to end the war 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:33.679 on drugs in Mississippi and build consensus around the state 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:37.520 to help families struggling with substance abuse problems find a 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:41.479 different path forward than the one they've been given. Stand 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:44.439 Together has many more stories like this one, as it 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:47.960 partners with thousands of change makers who were driving solutions 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:53.159 in education, health care, poverty, and the criminal justice system. 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:56.159 To learn more about the War on drugs, listen to 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:59.639 the War on Drugs podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:10.679 you get your podcasts. Kelsey and I go down to 0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:13.639 the Osceola County Clerk's office to look at the case 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:18.480 files and trial transcripts from the murder of Joseph Lavere. 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:20.919 I wanted to find out what was collected from the 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:24.040 cab to see if there was any DNA evidence or 0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:27.400 fingerprints that could be run. One of the great things 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:30.560 about doing research in Florida is the state Sunshine Law 0:21:30.840 --> 0:21:34.600 that requires that all state, county, and municipal records be 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:36.000 made available to the public. 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:39.040 But we don't get off to a very promising start. 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:42.760 After asking for the file, we wait for about an 0:21:42.760 --> 0:21:47.120 hour and then they send down not one, not two, 0:21:47.760 --> 0:21:49.560 but three clerks to talk to us. 0:21:52.440 --> 0:21:55.400 Hello. Hi, I'm Gilbert, I'm good. 0:21:55.400 --> 0:21:57.840 How are you? You're welcome? 0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:00.120 I am saying it, Suzy. 0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:07.960 Kelsey, nice to meet you. Yes, so you're interested in 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:09.240 the Daniel aunt file. 0:22:11.040 --> 0:22:15.000 Donna is mispronouncing his name. But Daniel Odie was the 0:22:15.000 --> 0:22:18.240 man who was tried twice and was eventually acquitted of 0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:20.600 killing the cab driver Joseph Laverare. 0:22:21.880 --> 0:22:26.240 It doesn't have the arrest affidavit. It's a partial file. 0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:33.240 So what's in here you are entitled to view? I 0:22:33.240 --> 0:22:33.600 don't know. 0:22:33.600 --> 0:22:36.760 If Donna shows me a slim file, it can't have 0:22:36.800 --> 0:22:40.440 more than one hundred pages in it. Usually the clerk's 0:22:40.440 --> 0:22:44.160 office will turn over boxes of files with transcripts, police reports, 0:22:44.160 --> 0:22:49.600 and depositions, thousands of pages. Again, this is all supposed 0:22:49.600 --> 0:22:52.560 to be public record, and I'm entitled to view all 0:22:52.600 --> 0:22:56.000 of it, or preferable, I just want to look at 0:22:56.000 --> 0:22:58.080 it first and see what's in there because we're looking 0:22:58.080 --> 0:23:01.800 these were two trials too. Homicide trials usually there's like 0:23:01.880 --> 0:23:05.520 transcripts notation about where physical evidence might be. 0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:09.280 Since he was found not guilty, the physical evidence would 0:23:09.359 --> 0:23:11.800 no longer be available, and. 0:23:12.240 --> 0:23:14.440 Is it disposed or is it just not available to 0:23:14.480 --> 0:23:18.080 the public. This is infuriating me and I'm trying not 0:23:18.160 --> 0:23:22.080 to show it. If dan Odie really didn't kill Joseph Laverair, 0:23:22.560 --> 0:23:25.760 that means the murderer might still be out there. I 0:23:25.800 --> 0:23:29.080 can't understand why this isn't available, and why the clerk 0:23:29.160 --> 0:23:31.720 won't tell me where I can find the information I'm 0:23:31.720 --> 0:23:35.120 looking for. He can't be tried again, right, But I'm saying, 0:23:35.440 --> 0:23:37.520 we think we know who did the crime. Oh, okay, 0:23:37.600 --> 0:23:39.640 So it would be lovely to just have some records 0:23:39.680 --> 0:23:43.720 to look at trial transcripts, see what physical evidence did exist. 0:23:43.880 --> 0:23:45.359 Maybe there was a hat we know of in the 0:23:45.440 --> 0:23:46.240 newspaper accounts. 0:23:46.240 --> 0:23:46.760 That's all we know. 0:23:47.200 --> 0:23:49.399 But maybe there's some DNA or some hair fibers that 0:23:49.480 --> 0:23:50.400 might match the guy. 0:23:50.240 --> 0:23:50.840 We think did it. 0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:53.359 But we'll go through all this and look through it 0:23:53.400 --> 0:23:55.120 and just see if we can find any clues as 0:23:55.119 --> 0:23:56.280 to where this stuff might be. 0:23:57.800 --> 0:23:59.720 So that goes back to you, guys, somebody has to 0:23:59.720 --> 0:24:00.360 sit with him. 0:24:00.640 --> 0:24:02.520 Yes, so the two options that you have. 0:24:02.760 --> 0:24:05.200 We're told someone will need to observe us if we're 0:24:05.200 --> 0:24:08.320 gonna view the files in the courthouse. This has never 0:24:08.400 --> 0:24:11.760 happened to me at a clerk's office before. We decide 0:24:11.800 --> 0:24:13.800 to get copies made so we can go through them 0:24:13.840 --> 0:24:18.040 without someone looking over our shoulder. But something's really bothering 0:24:18.080 --> 0:24:21.639 me about this case. It feels like it's been flagged. 0:24:22.640 --> 0:24:24.919 Why do they send down three clerks to tell us 0:24:24.920 --> 0:24:28.399 we're only entitled to view a partial file. They're not 0:24:28.480 --> 0:24:31.520 showing me these files because dan Odie was found not guilty. 0:24:32.080 --> 0:24:35.560 It doesn't make any sense to me. Kelsey and I 0:24:35.680 --> 0:24:38.800 sit and wait for the copies to be made. 0:24:39.560 --> 0:24:40.080 It's such a. 0:24:42.200 --> 0:24:46.320 Mysterious right now, I'm a fucking war path. Right We're 0:24:46.320 --> 0:24:47.040 gonna we're gonna go. 0:24:47.160 --> 0:24:47.720 We're gonna go. 0:24:47.640 --> 0:24:49.879 Into the Sheriff's department, and then we're gonna go the 0:24:49.880 --> 0:24:53.679 Stadt Joorney's office. You never heard of fucking something like 0:24:53.720 --> 0:24:56.600 this in Florida that did the trial transform funders every 0:24:56.680 --> 0:24:57.640 fucking single trial. 0:24:57.680 --> 0:24:59.280 I never looked into the transfer stas. 0:25:03.040 --> 0:25:06.359 Later that same day, we drive to the Osceola County 0:25:06.400 --> 0:25:09.399 Sheriff's office. We tell them that we might have some 0:25:09.520 --> 0:25:13.159 important information on an old cold case in their jurisdiction. 0:25:14.280 --> 0:25:17.199 They send two young detectives down to us, but they 0:25:17.240 --> 0:25:21.080 won't let us record our meeting. The detectives are friendly 0:25:21.520 --> 0:25:23.720 and they listen to what we have to say, but 0:25:23.760 --> 0:25:27.719 they don't seem to know anything about this case. Okay, 0:25:27.760 --> 0:25:31.160 we just left the Osceola County Sheriff's office. It's raining 0:25:31.240 --> 0:25:34.760 out now, and the two detectives in there told us 0:25:35.440 --> 0:25:37.639 that who are very interested. They told us that they 0:25:37.640 --> 0:25:38.919