1
00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:04,800
Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

2
00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:09,200
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

3
00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:12,200
Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

4
00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:14,000
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

5
00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:26,480
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

6
00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:27,360
Speaker 2: my name is Nolan.

7
00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:29,960
Speaker 3: They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our

8
00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:34,920
Speaker 3: super producer Paul Michigan. Troll decands most importantly, you are here.

9
00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:39,680
Speaker 3: That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know. Tonight, folks,

10
00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:42,599
Speaker 3: we are so glad you are joining us for an

11
00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:47,639
Speaker 3: incredibly important and disturbing story. Long story short, pretty much

12
00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,680
Speaker 3: everyone in the United States can agree there are serious

13
00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,280
Speaker 3: problems with the US justice system. Problems not limited to

14
00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:59,120
Speaker 3: overworked officials draconian mandates for punishment. There are also clear

15
00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:04,760
Speaker 3: cases of and indeed conspiracy. Weirdly enough, there are surreal

16
00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:09,640
Speaker 3: cases wherein pretty much everyone, including former prosecutors, will agree

17
00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:14,080
Speaker 3: a person convicted of a crime is probably or actually innocent,

18
00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:19,040
Speaker 3: Yet the system still insists upon moving forward, even toward executions,

19
00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,720
Speaker 3: and tonight we're exploring a particularly disturbing example of this,

20
00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:27,280
Speaker 3: the case of a Birmingham native named to Forest Johnson,

21
00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:31,679
Speaker 3: who is convicted of homicide with scant or no evidence

22
00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,040
Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety five and remains on death row as

23
00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:38,760
Speaker 3: we record today. We are immensely fortunate to be joined

24
00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,680
Speaker 3: with the creator of the ear Witness podcast, award winning

25
00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:47,360
Speaker 3: journalist anchor writer, Beth Shelburn. Thanks so much for joining us, Beth.

26
00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,320
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me. I so appreciate it.

27
00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:53,640
Speaker 2: Well, Hey, I know we're jumping right into the story, guys,

28
00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:55,600
Speaker 2: but do you mind really quickly. I just want to

29
00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,200
Speaker 2: know a little bit more about Beth, because Beth, if

30
00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,760
Speaker 2: you don't mind either, we just learned about how how

31
00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:08,000
Speaker 2: much time you spent at WBRCTV Fox six. I guess

32
00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:10,840
Speaker 2: it is there in Birmingham, and I'd just love to

33
00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,800
Speaker 2: know what it was like to be in that position

34
00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:17,600
Speaker 2: as an anchor and reporter, like digging into those stories

35
00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,960
Speaker 2: but also being the face the person that's telling those stories.

36
00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:26,120
Speaker 4: Yeah. I worked for WBrC Fox six for the last

37
00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:30,320
Speaker 4: nine years of my TV news career, but I was

38
00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:34,480
Speaker 4: working for local TV stations around the country for twenty years,

39
00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,560
Speaker 4: so that was the last stop, and Birmingham happens to

40
00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,120
Speaker 4: be my hometown. I didn't I was sort of a

41
00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:48,799
Speaker 4: traditional news reporter. I wasn't particularly bent on justice issues.

42
00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:53,480
Speaker 4: I was covering all the normal general assignment TV news

43
00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:57,120
Speaker 4: stories that are typical and local markets, like building is

44
00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:01,080
Speaker 4: on fire, Go there, somebody just shot and killed someone,

45
00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,560
Speaker 4: Go there. You know, it's really run and gun journalism.

46
00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:09,079
Speaker 4: And that's what I was doing for probably the first

47
00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:12,160
Speaker 4: ten years of my career. Then I started getting into

48
00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:17,080
Speaker 4: investigative or more long form stories where you can really

49
00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:19,800
Speaker 4: take your time, and TV news a long story is

50
00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:24,280
Speaker 4: like three to four minutes as opposed to one minute

51
00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:28,880
Speaker 4: and fifteen seconds, which is what the general TV news

52
00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:33,320
Speaker 4: story is. When I moved back to Birmingham. I came

53
00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:40,240
Speaker 4: back here in twenty ten and started covering the crisis

54
00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:44,400
Speaker 4: that's been unfolding in Alabama prisons in twenty twelve. And

55
00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:47,240
Speaker 4: I think the prison system in Georgia has many of

56
00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:52,400
Speaker 4: the same kind of problems of overcrowding, violence, corruption, drugs

57
00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:56,680
Speaker 4: inside the system. It's really, you know, like the seventh

58
00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:00,600
Speaker 4: layer of hell in our prison system, and we're sending

59
00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,800
Speaker 4: all these people there who have problems with addiction or

60
00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:09,440
Speaker 4: mental health and they're getting exponentially worse. So I started

61
00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,160
Speaker 4: writing about what was going on in the prisons and

62
00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,480
Speaker 4: why the prisons were so bad, and that kind of

63
00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:20,479
Speaker 4: dovetailed into my interest in sentencing policy and why we're

64
00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:24,919
Speaker 4: sending people to prison for decades and decades for crimes

65
00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,279
Speaker 4: sometimes that didn't even result in a physical injury to

66
00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,960
Speaker 4: a victim. And just in my course of kind of

67
00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:35,279
Speaker 4: developing that as a beat, I came to know to

68
00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,360
Speaker 4: Forrest Johnson's case, and that's how I started covering it.

69
00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,760
Speaker 4: But you know, when you're the face of TV news,

70
00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:47,119
Speaker 4: I was always an anchor and a reporter, you're sort

71
00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:53,400
Speaker 4: of kind of like a homecoming queen type persona for

72
00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:57,200
Speaker 4: the community that you're working in. And so it started

73
00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:59,839
Speaker 4: to become kind of a hard balance for me to

74
00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,880
Speaker 4: strike when I was asking some really difficult questions about

75
00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:09,880
Speaker 4: accountability and who's responsible for these human rights disasters and

76
00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,640
Speaker 4: our jails and prisons, and then you know, getting on

77
00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,800
Speaker 4: the news and talking about the weather and sports. It

78
00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,160
Speaker 4: was starting to feel like it wasn't a good fit

79
00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:24,120
Speaker 4: for me anymore, because my heart was really with asking

80
00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:26,640
Speaker 4: some of these serious questions and spending more than a

81
00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:31,680
Speaker 4: minute and fifteen seconds on a story, and certainly getting

82
00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:35,640
Speaker 4: into crime reporting in a more complete and nuanced way

83
00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:40,159
Speaker 4: other than just showing somebody's mugshot and telling folks what

84
00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,120
Speaker 4: they're alleged to have done.

85
00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:46,720
Speaker 3: And the hard truth is that often, given the format

86
00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:52,400
Speaker 3: of news reporting, we don't have the space for the nuance,

87
00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:56,960
Speaker 3: right for the substantive examination. And just so everyone knows,

88
00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:01,480
Speaker 3: in case you're unfamiliar, Beth, when you returned to Birmingham,

89
00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:05,320
Speaker 3: you were not returning empty handed. You had also won

90
00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:09,080
Speaker 3: an Emmy Award for breaking news coverage during the fires

91
00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:13,680
Speaker 3: in California, and two thousand and three your the recipient

92
00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:18,520
Speaker 3: of Edward R. Muaw Award for a series in Manhattan

93
00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:23,280
Speaker 3: shortly after the terrorist attacks of September eleventh, and there

94
00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:27,520
Speaker 3: was another Edward R. Mureau Award You've won for the

95
00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:32,360
Speaker 3: twenty twelve series Chasing the Dragon on Heroin Addiction.

96
00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,920
Speaker 2: And so please stop, come on, we got to let

97
00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:40,839
Speaker 2: other people have awards too, for us news on the running.

98
00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:44,680
Speaker 4: In the TV news world, that's like not that highly decorated.

99
00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,640
Speaker 4: So I covet my little three awards that I got

100
00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:49,080
Speaker 4: very much.

101
00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,800
Speaker 5: I appreciate it, and is as far as we're concerned,

102
00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,640
Speaker 5: in the podcast world that would be considered very highly

103
00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:55,200
Speaker 5: tech career.

104
00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:59,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially because the three of us as well as

105
00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,919
Speaker 2: super Producer, we all work on these long form you know,

106
00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,320
Speaker 2: shows like this where we try and tell these stories.

107
00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,159
Speaker 2: So it just means a lot to us that that

108
00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,240
Speaker 2: people have recognized the work that you've already done in

109
00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,480
Speaker 2: the past, right, and now you've got this show that

110
00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:17,800
Speaker 2: we're about to really dig into that feels extremely meaningful

111
00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:18,760
Speaker 2: and important.

112
00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:24,240
Speaker 3: And to dovetail on that this is a story that

113
00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:29,880
Speaker 3: may not have gone very far beyond Birmingham were it

114
00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,600
Speaker 3: not for the work that you and your team and

115
00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,640
Speaker 3: Lava for Good have done. I think, you know, I

116
00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,520
Speaker 3: think something that might chock a lot of people is

117
00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,280
Speaker 3: to learn that even in Atlanta, just a few hours away,

118
00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,840
Speaker 3: as you said, many people are not familiar with the

119
00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:48,120
Speaker 3: story of the forest.

120
00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,360
Speaker 5: Johnson, Well, I mean, you know, we're in the Lava

121
00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:53,720
Speaker 5: for Good folks, and we do this stuff as sort

122
00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:55,440
Speaker 5: of a beat of our own in terms of just

123
00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:57,040
Speaker 5: being aware of these kinds of stories.

124
00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:58,680
Speaker 6: And I think all of us we're hearing about this

125
00:07:58,680 --> 00:07:59,560
Speaker 6: stuff for the first.

126
00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:01,320
Speaker 5: Time, and I think that speaks volumes to the fact

127
00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:03,040
Speaker 5: that it's a lot more common than you might think,

128
00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:07,000
Speaker 5: and that these stories aren't always instantly remarkable, and it

129
00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:11,080
Speaker 5: takes somebody with your experience to really kind of figure

130
00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:12,800
Speaker 5: out that this is the kind of thing that needs

131
00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,080
Speaker 5: to be given a closer look, because a lot of

132
00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,720
Speaker 5: times these stories fall through the cracks. And so that's

133
00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,000
Speaker 5: why I think we're grateful to folks like LoVa for

134
00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:24,640
Speaker 5: Good and yourself for digging into these cases of wrongful conviction.

135
00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:27,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think that that was one thing we

136
00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,680
Speaker 4: were cognizant of when we were putting this podcast together,

137
00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,839
Speaker 4: as it is the story of what happened to to

138
00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,840
Speaker 4: Forrest Johnson, which continues to be an injustice because he's

139
00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,080
Speaker 4: still on death row and he's still at risk of

140
00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:43,200
Speaker 4: being executed for a crime that he did not commit.

141
00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:47,640
Speaker 4: But I think the system that allowed this to happen

142
00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:52,120
Speaker 4: is what we really wanted to amplify and show people

143
00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:57,000
Speaker 4: that this isn't really a one off. This is reflective

144
00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,720
Speaker 4: of a system that is full of problems, issues that

145
00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:03,880
Speaker 4: don't just affect to Forest Johnson or other people who

146
00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,320
Speaker 4: might be wrongfully convicted, but tens of thousands of people

147
00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,680
Speaker 4: who are churned through our criminal justice system every day.

148
00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:15,600
Speaker 3: One hundred percent agreed, and let's scope in on this case.

149
00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's get started by giving everybody a picture of

150
00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,079
Speaker 2: what occurred, right, just like you do in the show,

151
00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:24,120
Speaker 2: and kind of tell him a bit of the story

152
00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,320
Speaker 2: as we go here. So, what happened to Jefferson County

153
00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,480
Speaker 2: Sheriff's Deputy William Jerome Hardy on the night of Tuesday,

154
00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:32,680
Speaker 2: July eighteenth, nineteen ninety five.

155
00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:38,080
Speaker 4: So Bill Hardy had been a deputy with Jefferson County

156
00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,120
Speaker 4: for twenty three years, and he was working at a

157
00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:45,040
Speaker 4: hotel right off the Red Mountain Expressway. If people know Birmingham,

158
00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,240
Speaker 4: it's now an embassyc Suites. At the time it was

159
00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:50,760
Speaker 4: called the Crown Sterling Suites. He was moonlighting as a

160
00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,920
Speaker 4: security guard at the hotel, and it was a pretty

161
00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:58,360
Speaker 4: easy gig. It's a kind of a business class hotel

162
00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,400
Speaker 4: in a quiet area on the outskirts of Homewood, the

163
00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:03,520
Speaker 4: suburb that I grew up in, So this is not

164
00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:08,400
Speaker 4: a shoot him up kind of neighborhood. But Hardy would

165
00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:12,360
Speaker 4: walk the floor, you know, check the exterior of the

166
00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:15,679
Speaker 4: building in his patrol car, and mostly sit in the

167
00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:20,480
Speaker 4: atrium of the hotel's lobby, smoking cigarettes and drinking coffee

168
00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:23,600
Speaker 4: on the overnight shift to make extra money. So he

169
00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:28,360
Speaker 4: was there the night of July eighteenth, nineteen ninety five,

170
00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,280
Speaker 4: the last time he was seen alive. He was sitting

171
00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:36,920
Speaker 4: in the atrium smoking more brand Mental cigarettes and drinking coffee,

172
00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,439
Speaker 4: and there were only a couple of people that worked

173
00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:44,400
Speaker 4: at the hotel around. There was a night desk clerk,

174
00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,200
Speaker 4: there was a houseman who you know, would buff the floors,

175
00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,800
Speaker 4: and there was Deputy Hardy. And so, for some reason

176
00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,560
Speaker 4: that has never been clear to this day, he got

177
00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:00,839
Speaker 4: up from where he was sitting, walked down a back hallway,

178
00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:05,160
Speaker 4: out a pair of glass double doors into the back

179
00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:10,199
Speaker 4: parking lot, and was shot twice in the head, right

180
00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:14,400
Speaker 4: behind the hotel. It was about twelve forty five twelve fifty,

181
00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,800
Speaker 4: ten minutes before one am, so almost everyone in the

182
00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:22,439
Speaker 4: hotel was asleep. No one actually saw the crime happen.

183
00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:27,280
Speaker 4: A few people heard the gunshots, but that's what happened.

184
00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,520
Speaker 4: It was a real who done it, because this was

185
00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:33,320
Speaker 4: a man who had no known enemies. He was a

186
00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:39,360
Speaker 4: very easy going guy, very chill, very friendly, and no

187
00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:44,320
Speaker 4: one really knew why he went behind the hotel or

188
00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:46,439
Speaker 4: who would kill him in.

189
00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:53,840
Speaker 3: This way, right, no discernible motive, no obvious. It appears

190
00:11:54,480 --> 00:12:01,240
Speaker 3: link to link to suspects in the beginning, And could

191
00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,319
Speaker 3: you tell us a little bit maybe just to continue

192
00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:08,840
Speaker 3: painting the picture here, a little bit of the socioeconomic

193
00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:15,439
Speaker 3: status of this Crown Sterling Suites, like the neighborhood at

194
00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:15,839
Speaker 3: the time.

195
00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:22,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's Homewood is the first suburb south of Birmingham,

196
00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,600
Speaker 4: and the Red Mountain Expressway is the freeway that cuts

197
00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,120
Speaker 4: from the downtown city center into the suburbs that have

198
00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:34,960
Speaker 4: been built out south of the city. The Crown Sterling

199
00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,680
Speaker 4: Suites now Embassy Suites is right on the line between

200
00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:41,480
Speaker 4: Homewood and Birmingham, and it's in this kind of weird

201
00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,920
Speaker 4: area right off the interstate where there's like a couple

202
00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:49,480
Speaker 4: of office park type buildings and there's a bank, and

203
00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:53,600
Speaker 4: there's like, you know, these sort of nondescript mirrored buildings

204
00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,360
Speaker 4: and you're always like, what's going on in that you know,

205
00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:58,679
Speaker 4: building with no sign on it? Is there like an

206
00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,199
Speaker 4: Al Qaeda cellating out of that building?

207
00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:02,800
Speaker 2: You know that's going there.

208
00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, that kind of area, but kind of plopped in

209
00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:10,440
Speaker 4: the middle is the Crown Sterling Suites are now Embassy Suites,

210
00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:14,680
Speaker 4: which you know is sort of your standard mid range

211
00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:19,920
Speaker 4: business hotels that's right off the interstate. Homewood is known

212
00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,319
Speaker 4: now to be kind of an upper income area. At

213
00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:25,360
Speaker 4: the time, it was sort of middle class, but it's

214
00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:30,560
Speaker 4: gotten very fancy and gentrified. But it's never been a

215
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,120
Speaker 4: real high crime area. It's high density, there's a lot

216
00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:38,720
Speaker 4: of people in Homewood, but it's generally considered a safe

217
00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,480
Speaker 4: place to live where the main crimes are property crimes.

218
00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:44,480
Speaker 4: There's not a lot of violent crime there.

219
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,800
Speaker 5: I actually spent a couple of years living in Birmingham

220
00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,000
Speaker 5: in my high school days, and I remember in the

221
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,200
Speaker 5: two thousands, Like I graduated in two thousand and two,

222
00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:54,280
Speaker 5: so this would have been like in ninety nine, two

223
00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,120
Speaker 5: thousand and I remember Homewood as being kind of a

224
00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:00,000
Speaker 5: hippish area, Like there were some cool record stores there

225
00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,800
Speaker 5: and like it had interesting kind of pop culture type stuff,

226
00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:06,200
Speaker 5: and I just I remember going there sometimes.

227
00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:08,120
Speaker 6: There were a couple of neat shops that I would

228
00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:09,080
Speaker 6: go to with friends there.

229
00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:13,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's still got a downtown commerce area. It's become

230
00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:20,200
Speaker 4: really fancy, but there's this very strange locally owned pet

231
00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,720
Speaker 4: store called Ed's Pet World that has stuck it out

232
00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,800
Speaker 4: and it's down there. The weirdness of Ed's Pet World

233
00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:33,680
Speaker 4: is surrounded by like high end cupcake places and embroidery shops.

234
00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,720
Speaker 4: Hanging on. Ed is hanging on. But man, you walk

235
00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:38,960
Speaker 4: into this place and you're like, for sure going to

236
00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,200
Speaker 4: get a spider on you somewhere. It's like a really

237
00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,880
Speaker 4: narrow store with a box turtle walking around like free

238
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,240
Speaker 4: range turtles. You got to stop in Ed's Pet World

239
00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:50,080
Speaker 4: if you're in Birmingham.

240
00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:52,320
Speaker 3: I haven't been back in ages, but I would love

241
00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,480
Speaker 3: to back in this in this night in July nineteen

242
00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:59,840
Speaker 3: ninety five. You know, we all know that law enforcement

243
00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:05,440
Speaker 3: takes it incredibly seriously when there's an officer attacked, injured,

244
00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:10,400
Speaker 3: or down, so the other authorities show up pretty quickly.

245
00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:12,600
Speaker 3: Is that correct? Could you tell us how many people

246
00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:15,240
Speaker 3: are on the scene after this is first reported.

247
00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, there were a few people that heard the shots

248
00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,560
Speaker 4: and called down to the front desk clerk who quickly

249
00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:26,040
Speaker 4: called nine to one one. And he actually his name's

250
00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,320
Speaker 4: Barry Rushikov. He lives in Las Vegas now and we

251
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:31,800
Speaker 4: actually tracked him down and talked to him, so it

252
00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,440
Speaker 4: was cool. We hear him on the original nine one

253
00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:37,280
Speaker 4: one tapes, and then we talked to him present day

254
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,080
Speaker 4: where this has still impacted him because he still works

255
00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,560
Speaker 4: in the hospitality industry and to have something like this

256
00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:45,120
Speaker 4: happen is really harrowing.

257
00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:47,320
Speaker 6: But he sounds so scared on the tapes.

258
00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,240
Speaker 5: He said, the officers on the phone are asking him

259
00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,120
Speaker 5: to kind of observe the body for vital signs, and

260
00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,320
Speaker 5: he's like, I'm not going back out there. I don't

261
00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,080
Speaker 5: know if these folks are still around.

262
00:15:57,520 --> 00:15:57,720
Speaker 4: Yeah.

263
00:15:57,760 --> 00:15:59,680
Speaker 6: To hear the shakiness in his voice, I.

264
00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,800
Speaker 4: Think it was terrifying because it came out of nowhere

265
00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,560
Speaker 4: and he wasn't sure what happened, but he knew hotel

266
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,560
Speaker 4: guests heard gunshots and then he saw Hardy lying on

267
00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:18,400
Speaker 4: the pavement dying. So the law enforcement response was almost immediate,

268
00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,720
Speaker 4: and there were four different agencies that descended on the

269
00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:26,200
Speaker 4: hotel and it became a very active scene really quickly.

270
00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,640
Speaker 4: I don't know how many police were there, but I

271
00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:33,840
Speaker 4: would say dozens. I know that the district attorney at

272
00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,160
Speaker 4: the time, the elected district attorney, like the head guy,

273
00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,640
Speaker 4: showed up at the scene. The sheriff was called out

274
00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,960
Speaker 4: to the scene. You know, four different agencies and all

275
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,520
Speaker 4: of their captains were trying to figure out who's going

276
00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,960
Speaker 4: to have jurisdiction on this one. So yeah, it was

277
00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:50,640
Speaker 4: it was big.

278
00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,040
Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about the physical evidence that was recovered

279
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:55,360
Speaker 2: at the scene.

280
00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:56,320
Speaker 6: What was there?

281
00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:03,120
Speaker 4: Very very little. There were two shellcasings that the crime

282
00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:07,760
Speaker 4: scene texts collected from the scene, and other than that,

283
00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:12,520
Speaker 4: there were people that heard the shots and saw some

284
00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:17,199
Speaker 4: kind of car drive away. But other than the shellcasings,

285
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,280
Speaker 4: was literally no physical evidence. There was the stuff that

286
00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:26,560
Speaker 4: was on Hardy's body, which was belongings of his his cigarettes.

287
00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:30,840
Speaker 4: And you know, he had even left his two way

288
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:34,840
Speaker 4: radio on the table inside the hotel, which has always

289
00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:39,440
Speaker 4: been a strange detail for me because there was a

290
00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:43,160
Speaker 4: theory that police had, well, he must have heard something

291
00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,920
Speaker 4: and went out the back door to investigate a strange

292
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,520
Speaker 4: noise or something that alarmed him. But it seems very

293
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,240
Speaker 4: out of character for him to leave his two way

294
00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,639
Speaker 4: radio on the table and his cigarette was still burning

295
00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:57,480
Speaker 4: in an ash tray.

296
00:17:58,280 --> 00:17:59,880
Speaker 5: And just to ask the question that I think maybe

297
00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,680
Speaker 5: is on people's minds, were those shellcasings dusted for prints?

298
00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:03,800
Speaker 6: Like again, know, maybe I've.

299
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:05,800
Speaker 5: Watched too many cop shows that seems like that's the

300
00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:07,520
Speaker 5: first thing, you do, you.

301
00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,520
Speaker 4: Know, I know that they dusted for prints on the

302
00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:14,040
Speaker 4: outside of the glass double doors and they were not

303
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:18,480
Speaker 4: able to get any usable prints. I'm assuming they dusted

304
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:22,320
Speaker 4: the shellcasings for prints, but that I don't know for sure.

305
00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:26,960
Speaker 4: A lot of the information I gleaned about those shellcasings

306
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,680
Speaker 4: came from the trial transcripts because the crime scene tech

307
00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:35,719
Speaker 4: testified at the trials. But there were no usable prints

308
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:36,480
Speaker 4: from the scene.

309
00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,480
Speaker 3: That's that's the takeaway for so And at this point, Beth,

310
00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:44,399
Speaker 3: we've got, if we assume the perspective of Birmingham law enforcement,

311
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:49,160
Speaker 3: we have one of the absolute most terrific situations possible.

312
00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:53,679
Speaker 3: One of our own has been murdered, shot twice in

313
00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:57,800
Speaker 3: the head, and we have bupkis to go on. So

314
00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,000
Speaker 3: could you walk us through the process us that law

315
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:06,000
Speaker 3: enforcement takes to start gathering what they can at least

316
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,639
Speaker 3: say is evidence with a straight face, and maybe walk

317
00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:16,399
Speaker 3: us up to how they eventually zoom in on four suspects.

318
00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:22,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, they were really spinning in circles from the very

319
00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:27,360
Speaker 4: beginning because they realized, oh, no one actually saw this.

320
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,200
Speaker 4: We don't have anything here at the scene. There were

321
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,800
Speaker 4: just a couple of guests inside the hotel that heard something.

322
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:38,080
Speaker 4: They parked a bunch of detectives at the hotel to

323
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:42,120
Speaker 4: talk to the witnesses there, and then officers fanned out

324
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:46,680
Speaker 4: all around the hotel in the hours following the shooting,

325
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:52,880
Speaker 4: really pulling over everyone. They had be on the lookouts

326
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:58,000
Speaker 4: for six different possible vehicles that were seen leaving the scene,

327
00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:02,439
Speaker 4: so not a lot of specifics, and it seems like

328
00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,679
Speaker 4: looking at the investigative file, they were just pulling everybody

329
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:10,720
Speaker 4: over within the vicinity of the crime scene, particularly young

330
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,280
Speaker 4: black men, some of whom they pulled in for questioning

331
00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,720
Speaker 4: who clearly had absolutely nothing to do with what happened,

332
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,680
Speaker 4: but were questioned for hours and hours until they were

333
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:25,000
Speaker 4: eventually released. What ended up happening that allowed them to

334
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:30,120
Speaker 4: zero in on the four suspects that were ultimately charged

335
00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:35,560
Speaker 4: with capital murder was a reward was offered for information

336
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:41,160
Speaker 4: in the case that actually was announced in the hours

337
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,560
Speaker 4: following the murder and the very first media reports that

338
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:49,560
Speaker 4: came out that police were offering a cash reward for information.

339
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:53,600
Speaker 4: That reward eventually grew to twenty thousand dollars, which is

340
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:54,960
Speaker 4: a lot of money in a.

341
00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,720
Speaker 2: Reward, especially in the mid nineties, right.

342
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,080
Speaker 6: Isn't that tainted things just a little bit.

343
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,520
Speaker 5: I know it's important, they're scrambling to get people to

344
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:09,000
Speaker 5: come forward, but we seem to have some sketchy sources

345
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,239
Speaker 5: and other you know, of course people calling in with

346
00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:16,200
Speaker 5: absolutely unverifiable sketchy stories. I'm sure, but that's just aggressively

347
00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:19,240
Speaker 5: large again, worthy of the right information, but it seems

348
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,239
Speaker 5: to when you're in hustle mode, to really kind of

349
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:26,160
Speaker 5: give you this massive, like shotgun blast of potential bad information.

350
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:31,280
Speaker 4: And I think it did. We have seen the investigative file,

351
00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:34,040
Speaker 4: and they ended up setting up a tip line because

352
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,480
Speaker 4: the phones were ringing so much after they announced this reward,

353
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,760
Speaker 4: and a lot of it is, you know, people just

354
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:44,879
Speaker 4: clearly fishing for information or after the reward money or

355
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,159
Speaker 4: kind of giving very vague I heard my cousin say

356
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 4: that you know, so and so heard that this guy

357
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,600
Speaker 4: might have had something to do with it, those kinds

358
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:58,040
Speaker 4: of tips. During that whole milieu of all these people

359
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,159
Speaker 4: calling into this tip line after the reward has been announced,

360
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 4: a woman contacted police and said, my fifteen year old

361
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:12,920
Speaker 4: daughter has information about the murder. That's right, Yolanda Chambers

362
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 4: Yolanda Chambers became one of the most important witnesses in

363
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 4: this case, and we really unpack her ordeal, her life,

364
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,639
Speaker 4: what happened to her in this series. She was brought

365
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,160
Speaker 4: in for questioning reluctantly. She did not want to talk

366
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 4: to police at first. She was brought in without her

367
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 4: mother and without an attorney present. Anne was questioned for hours,

368
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:45,679
Speaker 4: sometimes on tape, sometimes not on tape. But Yolanda eventually

369
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:50,800
Speaker 4: is who police relied on. And the four people that

370
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,600
Speaker 4: were arrested and charged with capital murder they were charged

371
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:59,080
Speaker 4: based on the tip from Yolanda Chambers that they had

372
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,720
Speaker 4: something to do with the crime, and she, during the

373
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,720
Speaker 4: course of at least twenty five interviews with police, she

374
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,720
Speaker 4: implicated six different people in the murder. So she changed

375
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,440
Speaker 4: her story over and over and over again.

376
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 5: She just sounds like she's talking until she gets an

377
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 5: idea on those tapes.

378
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:18,719
Speaker 6: I'm sorry, it's just that's just how it feels like

379
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 6: a cold psychle I don't.

380
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,399
Speaker 3: The name started with a smirch.

381
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 6: This person's reputation.

382
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 3: And there's confusion about the names even right.

383
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 6: It's weird.

384
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just have to be when you put your

385
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,719
Speaker 2: mind there a fifteen year old girl who was in

386
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 2: that position, right, being we have no idea what happened

387
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 2: between her and those officers when that tape recording stopped, right,

388
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 2: which is I think one of the biggest pieces for

389
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,159
Speaker 2: me in listening to the first couple of episodes of

390
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 2: your witness like in my mind reels imagining what's being said. Right,

391
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,359
Speaker 2: what do you think was Do you have any ideas

392
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 2: of what was happening or it's all speculation?

393
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, that's one of the main questions that we

394
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 4: had because we got access to the investigative file, and

395
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 4: that included more than fifty hours of taped police interviews,

396
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 4: many of them with Yolanda Chambers. I think there were

397
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 4: eight recorded interviews with Yolanda Chambers. In some individual interviews,

398
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 4: they would stop and then restart the tape multiple times.

399
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 4: Sometimes the transcript of the interview will list how long

400
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 4: the tape was off. It was off sometimes thirty minutes

401
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 4: at a time, and we have no way of knowing

402
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 4: what was happening. Then we interviewed the lead homicide investigator,

403
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:47,399
Speaker 4: Tony Richardson, who was in charge of these interrogations, and

404
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 4: we asked him about stopping and starting the tape and

405
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,360
Speaker 4: on the record interviews, and he admitted that it's against

406
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,199
Speaker 4: best practices to do that, but he wasn't able to

407
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 4: tell us why he did that while he was interviewing Yolanda,

408
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 4: what happened when the tape was off, But he was

409
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:06,880
Speaker 4: insistent that nothing sinister occurred.

410
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 6: That's the word, yeah, sinister, And he.

411
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 4: Said that over and over again. The thing that I

412
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,199
Speaker 4: think is really interesting for listeners of the podcast to

413
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 4: hear is how Yolanda Chambers story evolves and changes. Every

414
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 4: time police turn off the tape and then come back,

415
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 4: some key detail has changed dramatically with no explanation as

416
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 4: to why it changed. And so when you look at

417
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 4: the totality of what they got from Yolanda, which the

418
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 4: first time they talked to her was I don't know

419
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 4: anything about this murder and I don't know what happened

420
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 4: to Okay, I might know who did it to. Well,

421
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 4: I was with these two guys and they talked about

422
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,919
Speaker 4: doing it to Oh. I was actually there and I

423
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 4: witnessed it happening. It just changed over and over and

424
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 4: over again. You really have to ask yourself, how did

425
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 4: they even get these guys indicted on the word of

426
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 4: this fifteen year old witness. But we obtained the transcript

427
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 4: from the grand jury proceedings, which are supposed to be secret,

428
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 4: and those transcripts are not ever supposed to get out,

429
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,439
Speaker 4: but I had a source share it with me. And

430
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 4: you know, Detective Tony Richardson told the grand jury under

431
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 4: oath that he had no doubt in his mind that

432
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,400
Speaker 4: Yolanda Chambers was telling the truth. Of course, the grand

433
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 4: jury didn't know that she changed that truth over and

434
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 4: over and over again, and that it had, you know,

435
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 4: changed over time, and she had even changed who she

436
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,159
Speaker 4: said the shooters were. They didn't know that. They just

437
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 4: knew who he was claiming was responsible there at that hearing.

438
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 3: And we'll pause here for a word from our sponsor

439
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 3: before returning with more from Beth Shelter.

440
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 6: Okay, we're back.

441
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 3: So we've got the six initial named, four of which

442
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 3: do get the indictments right. And there's something very strange

443
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:22,440
Speaker 3: about that part, Beth, when they begin proceedings for these

444
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 3: four suspects, and they do almost like a Marvel movie

445
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:33,880
Speaker 3: multiverse approach to the explanations or to the allegations. And

446
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 3: it seems that as we run through the four initial people.

447
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:44,400
Speaker 3: I think it's important to have you confirm was the

448
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 3: state giving contradictory or indeed mutually exclusive theories or charges

449
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 3: and if so, how why is that even legal? I

450
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 3: was confused.

451
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 4: Yes it is legal, and yes, the state did give

452
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 4: contradictory mutually exclusive theories about how the crime was committed

453
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 4: and who committed the crime at different proceedings. We've gone

454
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 4: through everything and we counted five different theories of the

455
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 4: crime that were presented by the state. It's important for

456
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 4: listeners to know that as Yolanda Chambers changed her story

457
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 4: over and over and over again, and four people were

458
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 4: arrested and charged with this murder, to Forrest Johnson being

459
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:35,199
Speaker 4: one of them, at some point she told investigators that

460
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 4: two of the men, whose names are Omar Berry and

461
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 4: Quintez Wilson, she told them, you know what, they didn't

462
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 4: have anything to do with it, and I completely made

463
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 4: up that they were involved, and so their charges were

464
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 4: dropped and they were released eighteen months into the investigation.

465
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 4: Shortly after that, there was a competency hearing called by

466
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 4: one of the defense attorneys for the remaining two suspects,

467
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 4: where he wanted the judge to determine whether or not

468
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 4: Yolanda Chambers was a competent enough witness for these other

469
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 4: two capital murder cases to move forward, because she was

470
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 4: changing her story, including, you know, recanting on two of

471
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 4: the suspects. So during this competency hearing, which we got

472
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 4: a transcript from and we actually re enacted with an

473
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 4: actress playing Yolanda Chambers and the attorneys and the judge,

474
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 4: she ended up recanting everything on the stand, not just

475
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 4: that the two suspects that had already been released had

476
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 4: nothing to do with it, but also that to Forrest

477
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 4: Johnson and his co defendant had nothing to do with it.

478
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 4: And she told the judge, I made all of this

479
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 4: up because I was scared because police threatened to put

480
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 4: me in jail if I did not give them information

481
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 4: that was helpful, and the judge allowed the case to

482
00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 4: go forward.

483
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 6: I want to apologize earlier.

484
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,479
Speaker 5: I think I maybe was mistaking in my head two different,

485
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 5: very important players in this part of the story. There's

486
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 5: Yolanda Chambers and then there's also Violet Ellison. And I

487
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 5: said something to the effect of they sound like they're

488
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 5: talking till they get an idea, and that's just there's

489
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 5: something that did not ring true to me to my

490
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 5: initial again, cold listen, can you tell us a bit

491
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 5: about how things kind of pivoted to Violet Ellison and

492
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 5: why I might felt that way or I don't know

493
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 5: what you thought.

494
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 4: Well, I think that that's part of the reason, Noah,

495
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 4: why I wanted to do a narrative series podcast on

496
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 4: this case, Because there's so many twists and turns, it's

497
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 4: really hard to keep it all straight. So we really

498
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 4: wanted to unpack it step by step by painful, horrific

499
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 4: step and sort of lay it all out, lay bare

500
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 4: this thing that happened to this man. You are correct

501
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 4: in that the state completely pivoted away from Yolanda Chambers

502
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 4: after this recantation, even though the judge allowed the case

503
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 4: to go forward. They realized, we've got to figure something

504
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 4: else out because we can't rely on Yolanda Chambers as

505
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 4: the sole evidence in this case. And so they went

506
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 4: back through their file and they remembered that they had

507
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 4: spoken to a woman three weeks after the murder. That

508
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 4: woman's name is Violet Ellison, and she also contacted detectives

509
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 4: once the reward was offered, claimed that she had information

510
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 4: relative to the investigation came in and talked to detectives

511
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 4: and said that she overheard to Forest Johnson talking about

512
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 4: the murder on a jailhouse phone call that she evesdropped on,

513
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 4: and so she gave a very convoluted statement to detectives

514
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 4: that we got the recording of. It's about seven minutes long,

515
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 4: and they sat on it for two years. She was

516
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 4: never mentioned again at any of the preliminary hearings to

517
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 4: the grand jury, nothing until to Forst Johnson was put

518
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 4: on trial, and then she was called to the stand

519
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 4: as their star witness, and ultimately was how the state

520
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 4: convicted someone of this murder was putting this ear witness

521
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 4: on the stand who claimed that she overheard to Forst

522
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 4: Johnson talk about the murder, and that is the key evidence,

523
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 4: some would argue, the only evidence that the state used

524
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 4: to convict him.

525
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 3: Oh and Beth, let's that's we said. The we said

526
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 3: one of the primary words here. So for anyone who

527
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 3: is unfamiliar, I think has been colleagues mentioned. A lot

528
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 3: of people learn about law enforcement and prosecution through you know, copaganda,

529
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 3: through true crime shows like Law and Order, whatever. So

530
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 3: we know about eyewitnesses. What is an ear witness and

531
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 3: why is that so pivotal to stories like this?

532
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 4: An ear witness is like an eyewitness, except an ear

533
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 4: witness heard something, and so a lot of studies have

534
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 4: been done on how unreliable eyewitnesses are and ear witnesses

535
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 4: are even more so. Unfortunately, there's been less study on

536
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 4: the reliability of ear witnesses because they're used less. But

537
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 4: one of the most common questions we got while reporting

538
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 4: on this story from people into forest community and his

539
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 4: family even is how was the state allowed to present

540
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 4: hearsay as evidence? Like why is Violet ellison statement not

541
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 4: considered hearsay?

542
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 6: That's literally what that is, right, And it's a.

543
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 4: Great question, But here's why. And this is like at

544
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 4: the crux of what we're trying to get at is

545
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 4: these double standards. It's in our criminal justice system, normally

546
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:08,319
Speaker 4: a person testifying about hearing somebody else say something is

547
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 4: considered hearsay. But there's an exception to the hearsay rule,

548
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 4: and it's if the witness claims to have heard a

549
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 4: confession to a crime, well then it's not hearsay. That's

550
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 4: the exception. So it's like it's hearsay unless it's extremely

551
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,720
Speaker 4: valuable to the state and an exception.

552
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 3: That's right, hearsay, unless it helps.

553
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 4: Us, that's right.

554
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 6: I'm really quickly. I'm not gonna lie.

555
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:41,839
Speaker 5: I thought air Witness was just a very clever name

556
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 5: for your podcast. I was not a familiar with this

557
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 5: concept at all, because to me, it just sounds bonkers

558
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 5: to hear you describe it. And that's probably why people

559
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:51,959
Speaker 5: don't know about it, because you said it's not used much,

560
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:53,879
Speaker 5: but it seems like it's the perfect thing to use

561
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 5: when you need a piece, you know, to it is

562
00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:58,760
Speaker 5: story over the finish line.

563
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 4: You're so right. It is totally bonkers, and it's That's

564
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 4: probably the best way that I can explain why I

565
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 4: wanted to do a project like this, because when I

566
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:15,240
Speaker 4: first learned about to Forrest's case and his attorneys, his family,

567
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 4: the people that were telling me about it were telling me, yeah,

568
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 4: he's on death row. Because one woman claimed that she

569
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 4: overheard him talking about the crime on a phone call

570
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 4: that she evesdropped on. I thought, No, there's no way

571
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 4: that's it.

572
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 6: That can't be it, that can't.

573
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 4: Be it, that cannot be it, and that's it. That

574
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 4: is it.

575
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 3: Let me throw a let me throw a kind of

576
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 3: a softball underheaded toss of a question here, Beth, Well,

577
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,879
Speaker 3: surely it wouldn't necessarily be here saved because jails are

578
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 3: supposed to record phone calls, So surely someone could go

579
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 3: back into the records and maybe see if that conversation existed, right,

580
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 3: I think yes.

581
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 4: But unfortunately, the supervisor of the Jefferson County Jail where

582
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 4: this phone call originated took the stand and said that

583
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 4: the jail was not equipped to record phone calls in

584
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 4: nineteen ninety five, So there's no recording I'm going.

585
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 5: To ask too in nineteen ninety five, even if they

586
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 5: did have the tape, digital technology and analysis wasn't where

587
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:27,919
Speaker 5: it is today in twenty twenty three.

588
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:28,800
Speaker 6: I mean, there might have.

589
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 5: Maybe there was a way you could prove beyond a

590
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 5: shadow of it, now this is this person's voice on

591
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 5: this tape, but probably not with the same degree of

592
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 5: certainty that you could today.

593
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:38,879
Speaker 2: Well, mate, with the tape.

594
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, we we actually found a voice exemplar tape in

595
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 4: the investigative file. We did not find any evidence that

596
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 4: they ever played it for Violet Ellison, and we asked

597
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 4: the detectives, the prosecutor, and Violet Ellison, and nobody could

598
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 4: really remember, but they prepared. It's called a voice exemplar tape.

599
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 4: You know, where you hear several Yeah, you hear several

600
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 4: different people's voices, including to Forest Johnson's. You know, but

601
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 4: I guess I don't know. Yeah, it's like a voice lineup. Yeah.

602
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 4: I don't know that they ever played it for her.

603
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 4: I know that when I have spoken to her directly

604
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 4: and I asked her, how do you know that this

605
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 4: was him? She had never heard him speak before, she

606
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 4: did not know him personally, and she told me, I

607
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 4: don't know that it was him. I just know that

608
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,240
Speaker 4: it was the same voice that I overheard. She listened

609
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 4: in on several different phone calls. The first one is

610
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 4: the only one that contained allegedly these incriminating statements that

611
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 4: she testified to. But you know, most of the people

612
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 4: into Forest community that I talked to, this is it's

613
00:37:54,520 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 4: really a terrifying idea that anybody can go to police

614
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 4: and just claim that they overheard you say something, and

615
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 4: that can send you all the way to death row,

616
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 4: where he's been for twenty five years. That is really frightening.

617
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 2: I want to talk about one of the at least

618
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,360
Speaker 2: it's one of the first times I think the listener

619
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 2: gets to hear to Forrest Johnson's voice, But I want

620
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,320
Speaker 2: to know about the first time you heard a particular tape,

621
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 2: which is when you hear him being interrogated by law

622
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 2: enforcement around the same time when I think it's when

623
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 2: Yolanda's allegations are coming forward and then they're trying to

624
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 2: get information from to Forest. Just that back and forth

625
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:45,439
Speaker 2: hearing somebody saying over and over again, I can't prove

626
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 2: a negative. I don't have information for you, and then

627
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 2: it never stopping, this deluge of you're guilty and you're

628
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 2: not telling me things. What was that like for you

629
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 2: at like as you're diving into this.

630
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 4: It is some of the worst tape I've ever listened to,

631
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 4: And of course everything is edited and condensed in the

632
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 4: podcast series, so we actually had to curate to Forest

633
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 4: interrogation from close to two hours of tape that police

634
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 4: recorded in conducting interviews with him. Yeah, it is like

635
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 4: the most extreme form of gaslighting you can ever imagine.

636
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 4: When you're stuck in a chair and cops insist for

637
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 4: hours and hours and hours that you did something that

638
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,359
Speaker 4: you didn't do, and not only did you not do it,

639
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 4: you don't know anything about it because you were somewhere

640
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 4: else when it happened, and it just it's really sickening

641
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 4: to listen to it in its entirety. I think for me,

642
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 4: it also really made me aware of my own privilege,

643
00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 4: that this is not the kind of interaction that my self,

644
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 4: is a middle aged white woman, has ever had with

645
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:09,959
Speaker 4: police or likely would. I think that, especially in this

646
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 4: time period in the mid nineties, cops were really running

647
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:19,839
Speaker 4: the show, and it was tough on crime, and they

648
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 4: wanted convictions, and you know, frankly, a lot of civil

649
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 4: rights and human rights were thrown out the window. So

650
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 4: in those recordings, we hear to Forrest repeatedly ask for

651
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 4: an attorney, and they just keep on going, you know,

652
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 4: like he didn't even say it. They make him cry

653
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 4: at one point, and you can hear the exhaustion in

654
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:48,760
Speaker 4: his voice at the end and him kind of understanding

655
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 4: what's happening that he says over and over again. I

656
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 4: can tell I'm getting fire. I am getting because they're

657
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 4: not believing him, and there's nothing else that he can

658
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 4: say and they're still not believing him. So it's it's

659
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 4: an awful listen.

660
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 3: They decided they wanted someone and they needed someone, right,

661
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 3: So there's I think it makes me go back to

662
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 3: the the excellent points you made at the very top

663
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 3: of our conversation, Beth, which is the system, right, the

664
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 3: enormity of this thing that at some point becomes a

665
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 3: feedback loop, it's self propelled. And we so we we

666
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:29,360
Speaker 3: talked about the two two of the four who are

667
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 3: indicted are the charges are dismissed more than a year later,

668
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 3: and uh, there is the third person who I believe

669
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:42,800
Speaker 3: makes it a trial but is acquitted, leaving only to

670
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 3: Forrest Johnson. And you know, as Matt said, as you

671
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:52,879
Speaker 3: said that that tape especially is is harrowing. How does

672
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 3: the how does the prosecution proceed now that Chambers has

673
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 3: Chambers has had her credibility, you know, cast out. They've

674
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 3: pivoted to Violet Ellison remembered this conversation way later. Uh

675
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 3: what do they what do they do? What? What does

676
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 3: the prosecutor do in this situation?

677
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 4: Well, that's one of the things that makes this whole

678
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 4: story so astonishing, is we mentioned that they presented multiple

679
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 4: theories for the same crime. Our dregas Ford was to

680
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 4: Forrest Johnson's co defendant, and they were tried separately. They

681
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:40,399
Speaker 4: were actually each tried twice for the crime. So there's

682
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 4: four trials total, and this is laid out in episode five,

683
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 4: so this is a little bit of a spoiler alert

684
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 4: if folks haven't gotten that far in the series. So

685
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 4: the order of trials was our dregas Ford was tried first.

686
00:42:57,680 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 4: The jury couldn't reach a verdict, so it was a

687
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 4: hung jery. To Forest Johnson was tried second, jury couldn't

688
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 4: reach a verdict hung jury. To Forest Johnson is tried

689
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:12,399
Speaker 4: a second time for Trial three, using Violet Ellison. They

690
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 4: get a verdict and a death sentence. He's sent to

691
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 4: death row. And then, incredibly, eight months after they sent

692
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 4: to Forest Johnson to death row, the state tries ar

693
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 4: dregis Ford a second time, not using Violet Ellison and

694
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 4: her theory about what happened, but calling Y'll landa Chambers

695
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 4: to the stand and rehashing you'll landa double jeopardy.

696
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 5: It's not like, how isn't it being tried twice for

697
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:46,399
Speaker 5: the same thing, or is it is? The allegations were

698
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 5: specific to each one, so therefore it stood on its

699
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 5: own merits, as it says, as another case sometimes that's.

700
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 4: A fantastic question. And I've had several people ask me

701
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 4: that that have been listening, like how are they at

702
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 4: allowed to keep trying people? I think when there's a

703
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 4: hung jury, it's declared a mistrial, so that's not the

704
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 4: same thing as being.

705
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 5: But still, if it was a hung jury, it means

706
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 5: there wasn't enough information to do the thing.

707
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, thank you.

708
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 4: And I think that's one takeaway, kind of a meta

709
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 4: takeaway that a lot of people are walking away with,

710
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 4: is like, you know, the state should not be allowed

711
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,280
Speaker 4: to just keep trying people over and over again until

712
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 4: they get a guilty verdict.

713
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,760
Speaker 6: You know, try try again, right exactly help.

714
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 4: Succeed, but you know they I interviewed the lead prosecutor

715
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 4: in this case, who's a really interesting he takes some

716
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 4: really interesting positions in this case. His name is Jeff Wallace,

717
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 4: and I was actually really surprised that he agreed to

718
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,759
Speaker 4: talk to me, and that Detective Tony Richardson agreed to

719
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,320
Speaker 4: talk to me, because usually these kinds of podcasts, the

720
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 4: folks that were responsible for the wrongful conviction are running away.

721
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 4: But I've talked to both of them for hours. Jeff

722
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 4: Wallace explained to me that the state, and it's true

723
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 4: other prosecutors have told me the state is allowed to

724
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 4: present conflicting theories for the same crime. The rules of

725
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 4: the court allow that. What you have to do is,

726
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 4: you know, use the evidence that you're presenting to that

727
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 4: particular jury. You don't have to lay out everything. The

728
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 4: burden is beyond a reasonable doubt. You don't have to

729
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 4: hand them a one hundred percent scientific proof of everything

730
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 4: that happened from start to finish. And so that's the

731
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 4: way they kind of, I think, justify in their minds that, well,

732
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 4: the law allows this, and so we just look at

733
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 4: the evidence that we have the cognitive dissonance though in

734
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 4: trying two separate people for a crime that we know

735
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:03,360
Speaker 4: only had one gunman involved, because those two shellcasings from

736
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 4: the two bullets that went into Deputy Harty's head came

737
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:11,839
Speaker 4: from one gun, which indicates one gunman only. So at

738
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 4: each of these trials they argued the defendant on trial

739
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:20,280
Speaker 4: was the shooter and described a different scenario. And these

740
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 4: scenarios cannot all be true together. And so I really

741
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 4: wanted somebody to answer for how did you work that

742
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 4: out in your own mind? Like ethically, morally, how can

743
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,839
Speaker 4: you get up there in the courtroom and do this?

744
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 4: And the answer was always, well, court rules allow us

745
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 4: to do this or to employ this strategy. I could

746
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 4: never really get an answer. It was always veered into

747
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 4: very highly technical legal jargon. But I myself personally have

748
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 4: a real problem with it, and I think a lot

749
00:46:57,680 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 4: of listeners.

750
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 3: Do too, agree agreed unanimously. There was also there was

751
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 3: this one line that stuck out to me speaking with

752
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 3: the former prosecutor, where he says, you know, he had

753
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 3: a reputation as a hard prosecutor, which I think most

754
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:17,720
Speaker 3: prosecutors will say that about themselves, and then he said,

755
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 3: maybe I had a reputation of being a bit too

756
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 3: hard of a prosecutor. If I had a case, I

757
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 3: would take it to the fullest extent possible, or something

758
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 3: like that, which does seem to be in my mind,

759
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:35,239
Speaker 3: it does seem to be a confirmation of exactly what

760
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 3: you're saying, this idea that actual justice the way civilians

761
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:44,399
Speaker 3: might think of it can be put in the back

762
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:49,360
Speaker 3: seat in favor of legalistic mechanisms, right to up your

763
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:50,600
Speaker 3: score in the courtroom.

764
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 2: Well, but they're also trying to find someone who murdered

765
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 2: one of their own. Right, well, so that pressure is

766
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:58,720
Speaker 2: on top of everything you're talking about then, right.

767
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, I think they all felt a personal responsibility

768
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 4: and incredible pressure to get some kind of resolution. I

769
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 4: think that you know, what our job is is to ask, like,

770
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 4: what does a resolution look like? And is it just

771
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 4: getting a conviction? Because what if it's not the right person?

772
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 4: You know, And that's kind of like where we are

773
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 4: right now, and also looking at the very narrow ways

774
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:30,720
Speaker 4: that you can attack a case post conviction.

775
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 5: Hey, let's pause here really quickly on the conversation for

776
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 5: a word from our sponsors, and then we'll be right

777
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:37,319
Speaker 5: back with more from Beth.

778
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 2: Okay, and we've returned with more with Beth Chilburn.

779
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 3: There are other things. There are multiple things I don't

780
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:51,760
Speaker 3: want to spoil them all that really stick out about

781
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 3: the justice system in general in the United States, the

782
00:48:55,040 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 3: justice system in particular in Alabama and indeed in the South,

783
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 3: theast overall. One of the things that we keep going

784
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 3: back to to your your point about the narrow scope

785
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 3: of what we would we would call appeals or saying

786
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:12,719
Speaker 3: that you know our weight, but what about this kind

787
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 3: of moments It seems that for a time there was

788
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 3: a bit of light possible here because I believe it

789
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:27,919
Speaker 3: was twenty seventeen, Johnson's case reached the higher courts, reach

790
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,239
Speaker 3: the Supreme Court. Could you tell us a little bit

791
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 3: about that.

792
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, So he has a really great post conviction legal team.

793
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 4: The reason that he's on death row is not because

794
00:49:38,640 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 4: he doesn't have good representation now, it's just that you know,

795
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:47,800
Speaker 4: they have these very narrow pathways that they can attack

796
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 4: his case. You literally cannot argue that someone is innocent

797
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 4: post conviction if they're on death row. Innocence is not

798
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:59,320
Speaker 4: a legal argument, which is just kind of mind blowing

799
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 4: if you really think about it. The Supreme happen, Supreme

800
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 4: Court has actually said innocence is not enough to overturn

801
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,720
Speaker 4: a death row conviction. But anyway, one of the most

802
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 4: egregious things about to Forest's conviction is something that happened

803
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 4: after he was sent to death row, and it's the

804
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 4: key witness in the case, Violet Ellison, the ear witness,

805
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:28,280
Speaker 4: was paid a reward behind closed doors, off the record,

806
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:31,839
Speaker 4: and the jury did not know that she was going

807
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:35,799
Speaker 4: to be paid for her testimony, and so that has

808
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 4: been one of the main issues that has been litigated

809
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 4: now for almost twenty years, and the courts have repeatedly said,

810
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 4: this is not prosecutorial misconduct. Nobody did anything wrong here,

811
00:50:55,320 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 4: and to Forrest's conviction can stand. Even though the state

812
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:05,320
Speaker 4: paid the star witness five thousand dollars off the record,

813
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:08,319
Speaker 4: it was not entered into the official court record. To

814
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:12,120
Speaker 4: Forrest Johnson and his attorneys were not told about the payment,

815
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 4: and the jury did not know that this reward was

816
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:16,280
Speaker 4: even on the table.

817
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 5: And this was an addition to the original reward for

818
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 5: the information or for actionable information.

819
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 4: It was part of the original reward. And since she

820
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:29,000
Speaker 4: from what I understand looking at the reward documents that

821
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 4: the state finally turned over after denying that they existed

822
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:35,799
Speaker 4: for seventeen years, from what I can tell, she was

823
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:40,320
Speaker 4: paid five thousand dollars because she wasn't part of Forrest's arrest.

824
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 4: Her testimony just led to his conviction. But they even

825
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:47,239
Speaker 4: like lowballed her. You know, it's like she only got

826
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 4: five thousand dollars. Her story about the reward and the

827
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:56,879
Speaker 4: state's story don't match up. And the state's story has

828
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:00,320
Speaker 4: changed since I've been covering this issue, since I started

829
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 4: covering it in twenty nineteen, and they've completely changed their

830
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:06,880
Speaker 4: story about what happened with this reward.

831
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:10,839
Speaker 3: Chambers, they sure did.

832
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, except there you know, this is the long arm

833
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 4: of the law that has the power to kill to

834
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 4: Forrest Johnson, which is what is so scary. It's not

835
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 4: just sloppy, it's incredibly suspicious. When this issue is being

836
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 4: litigated and the state keeps changing what they're actually filing

837
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:36,439
Speaker 4: in court documents. It's not like just they might misrepresent

838
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:40,319
Speaker 4: a word or two in an interview with me. I'm

839
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:44,920
Speaker 4: talking like the whole narrative about how the reward was triggered,

840
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 4: who called who, how it came, about why people didn't

841
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:51,840
Speaker 4: know about it, All of that has changed.

842
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 5: You start the podcast off with forgive me if you've

843
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 5: already said this person's name. But there's a lot of

844
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 5: characters in the story, with some from a clearly very

845
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 5: experienced lawyer or prosecutor perhaps who's a big fan of

846
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:11,520
Speaker 5: the death penalty, and you know, speaks to that effect

847
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 5: that there are certain crimes that there's.

848
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 6: No other way. He believes in it.

849
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:18,200
Speaker 5: He's always hearing these social justice warriors whining about, you know,

850
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:22,280
Speaker 5: somebody being wrongfully accused or whatever. And then he turns

851
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:24,839
Speaker 5: where his son I think he was a lawyer as well,

852
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:27,359
Speaker 5: turns him onto this story and he's like, and none

853
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 5: of that made any sense, That all was absurd, And

854
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 5: I'm the one who kind of would be more in

855
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 5: that corner, probably from hearing a story like that, but

856
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:36,720
Speaker 5: immediately he was skeptical.

857
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 6: Can you tell us who that was? And a little

858
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:39,160
Speaker 6: bit about.

859
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:40,920
Speaker 5: That kind of frame story of the podcast, I think

860
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 5: is a really cool way to start it off.

861
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 4: Yeah. His name is Bill Baxley, and in Alabama he's

862
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 4: kind of legendary. He was I think the youngest elected

863
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,400
Speaker 4: attorney general the state has ever had. He was elected

864
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 4: at age twenty eight, and he was in Alabama politics

865
00:53:56,680 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 4: for decades. He was lieutenant governor for a time, he

866
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 4: ran for governor. He's just been around forever and he

867
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 4: is staunchly pro death penalty. He was actually the attorney

868
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:15,440
Speaker 4: general when the Supreme Court outlawed capital punishment. There was

869
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:17,600
Speaker 4: a time in the early seventies, I think, for four

870
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:20,920
Speaker 4: or five years where there were no death sentences and

871
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 4: they declared it to be unconstitutional. Bill Baxley was instrumental

872
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:30,880
Speaker 4: in bringing executions back to Alabama during that time period.

873
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:34,920
Speaker 4: So he's a true believer. In his career, which is

874
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 4: now more than sixty years in running, he's still practicing law.

875
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:43,239
Speaker 4: He's looked at so many cases post conviction, hundreds and

876
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:48,000
Speaker 4: hundreds of cases, maybe thousands, and he has only agreed

877
00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 4: that somebody was likely innocent in two cases. One of

878
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 4: them was the Scottsboro Boys, and that is an infamous

879
00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:00,800
Speaker 4: case at the turn of the century where a group

880
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:05,240
Speaker 4: of young black boys were convicted of raping to white

881
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 4: women and they were all sentenced to death. All of

882
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:10,880
Speaker 4: their cases fell apart over a long period of time

883
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:14,600
Speaker 4: and they've all been pardoned posthumously by the state. It

884
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:18,080
Speaker 4: was a wrongful conviction, so probably one of the most

885
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:22,399
Speaker 4: infamous injustices in the history of Alabama. Bill Baxley says, yes,

886
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:26,600
Speaker 4: they were innocent, and to Forrest Johnson, and that's the

887
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 4: only other case that he's looked at in detail and said,

888
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 4: there's no way this guy did this, and it's really

889
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 4: out of character, and he's stepping way out of something

890
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:41,120
Speaker 4: that he would normally do to advocate for someone who's

891
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:41,839
Speaker 4: on death row.

892
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 3: And Baxley is I think that that speaks to the

893
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:52,760
Speaker 3: enormity of the miscarriage of justice. Baxley is joined also

894
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:57,880
Speaker 3: by a cavalcade of other supporters who are experts. I

895
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:02,280
Speaker 3: was looking at the the Chief Justice, former Chief Justice,

896
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:08,960
Speaker 3: neighbors Drayton, neighbors of other former US attorneys, other former judges,

897
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 3: three former jurors, and it seems that this leads me

898
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:15,960
Speaker 3: to one of the biggest questions I want to ask,

899
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 3: And I know that a lot of us listening long

900
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 3: tonight are thinking the same thing with this, With this

901
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:29,040
Speaker 3: high amount, this high density of heavy hitters who are saying, no,

902
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:34,719
Speaker 3: something wrong happens here, why won't the state re examine this?

903
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:38,720
Speaker 3: Is there some concern on their side about perhaps setting

904
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:45,280
Speaker 3: a precedent and triggering like a new era of reinvestigation

905
00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 3: or reopening of cases or what gives? Because it seems

906
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:53,239
Speaker 3: it seems as though, you know, it's not not to

907
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:55,440
Speaker 3: sound cold, but it is not as though it is

908
00:56:55,480 --> 00:57:01,840
Speaker 3: simply the family of before Johnson saying he didn't do

909
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:06,120
Speaker 3: it. It's not just his friends or aquaintances in Birmingham. It's

910
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:09,520
Speaker 3: top legal minds, right.

911
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:13,319
Speaker 4: I wish I could speak to why the state is

912
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 4: continuing to seek his execution and why they're continuing to

913
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:22,120
Speaker 4: fight his appeals despite the calls for a new trial.

914
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:26,160
Speaker 4: The current elected district attorney in Jefferson County has a

915
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 4: conviction integrity unit. He spent nine months reviewing this case

916
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:34,400
Speaker 4: and concluded that there were multiple problems with the process

917
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:37,480
Speaker 4: and that to Forest Johnson at the very least should

918
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:40,000
Speaker 4: get a new trial. He filed a petition in court

919
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 4: asking for a new trial to be granted. He was

920
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:48,240
Speaker 4: joined by Jeff Wallace, the original prosecutor, who argued that

921
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 4: to Forest Johnson deserved to die. That literally never happens.

922
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:56,440
Speaker 4: I mean I called innocence projects. I talked to people

923
00:57:56,760 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 4: all over the country. I could not find another case

924
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:06,240
Speaker 4: in any state where the original trial prosecutor supports a

925
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:10,480
Speaker 4: new trial for a defendant on death row. The Alabama

926
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 4: Attorney General's office handles all death row cases post conviction

927
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 4: and their full steam ahead. And I wish I could

928
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:21,800
Speaker 4: tell you why. All I can do is look at

929
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 4: what they're filing in court. I've asked them to talk

930
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:29,200
Speaker 4: with me for the podcast. I sent them lists of

931
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 4: questions which they would not answer. What they have argued.

932
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:36,600
Speaker 4: This is their filing that I've got in front of

933
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:39,440
Speaker 4: me that they put in front of the US Supreme

934
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:42,520
Speaker 4: Court this year to Forest Johnson asked the court to

935
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 4: again review this secret reward payment and the fact that

936
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 4: the elected district attorney has now called for a new

937
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:54,320
Speaker 4: trial after reviewing the case, and the Attorney General's office

938
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:57,520
Speaker 4: in Alabama says that to Forrest Johnson does not raise

939
00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:04,840
Speaker 4: an issue of extraordinary public importance or any compelling circumstance.

940
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:07,160
Speaker 5: What does that have to do with anything? What does

941
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:10,680
Speaker 5: public importance even mean? I'm just that's a that's a new.

942
00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:10,960
Speaker 6: One on me.

943
00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:12,520
Speaker 3: Is that from that that's a good question.

944
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:14,439
Speaker 4: Yeah.

945
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:18,640
Speaker 2: On December seventh of this year, he will have spent

946
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 2: twenty five years in prison, and that is just that

947
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:28,840
Speaker 2: It's just there's such an injustice there. And your work

948
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:33,240
Speaker 2: on the you know, looking at prisons, specific prisons, right,

949
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:37,480
Speaker 2: like the I'm imagining your work on the Julia Tutweiler prison,

950
00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:41,200
Speaker 2: right and just looking at the environment that human beings

951
00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:44,280
Speaker 2: have to survive in when they're in you know, each

952
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:47,280
Speaker 2: one is it's a different ecosystem, but each one has

953
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 2: kind of the same set of problems. I just wonder,

954
00:59:52,720 --> 00:59:55,280
Speaker 2: what do you think, like just imagining this person who's

955
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:57,920
Speaker 2: been in jail for twenty five years as of this December.

956
00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:03,440
Speaker 4: To Forrest is really an amazing person, and we didn't

957
01:00:03,560 --> 01:00:07,040
Speaker 4: get to interview him for the podcast because the Alabama

958
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 4: Department of Corrections has this bullsh rule where people on

959
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:12,440
Speaker 4: death row aren't allowed to talk to journalists and we

960
01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 4: didn't want to get him in trouble. But to Forrest

961
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:22,240
Speaker 4: has amazing fortitude. He's a very positive person. I think

962
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 4: that part of the reason why is because he has

963
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:29,960
Speaker 4: five children and fifteen grandchildren that he maintains very close

964
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:33,919
Speaker 4: relationships with. He's also very tight with his mother. Yeah,

965
01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:36,960
Speaker 4: we sit down for a long, expanded conversation with his

966
01:00:37,080 --> 01:00:40,720
Speaker 4: family in the last episode, So I hope people stick

967
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:44,520
Speaker 4: around for that because it's really beautiful and it's just

968
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:49,400
Speaker 4: it really shows us that, yes, this is a horrible

969
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:53,880
Speaker 4: injustice that this one human being has had to suffer,

970
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:58,000
Speaker 4: but it's really a community trauma and a family trauma

971
01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:02,400
Speaker 4: because it just fans out cross so many different lives

972
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:08,160
Speaker 4: and the beautiful way he's been able to father his

973
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:11,840
Speaker 4: children from death row. I have found it just to

974
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:17,600
Speaker 4: be awe inspiring and there's such a genuine love and

975
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:22,720
Speaker 4: commitment in this family despite this just horrific thing that's

976
01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 4: always there right in front of them. But they just

977
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:29,360
Speaker 4: keep going, and they keep loving on each other, and

978
01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:33,600
Speaker 4: they stay hopeful. And it has been something.

979
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:39,240
Speaker 3: To behold in that case too, that point about intergenerational trauma,

980
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:42,880
Speaker 3: the ripples and the consequences they continue long after an

981
01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:46,920
Speaker 3: action has been committed. It got me thinking, what about

982
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:52,320
Speaker 3: the survivors of Deputy Shareff Bill Hardy? Right, clearly they

983
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 3: would one would assume they would want some closure as well.

984
01:01:56,720 --> 01:02:00,720
Speaker 3: And as we're recording, for anybody who wants to catch

985
01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:03,960
Speaker 3: the news to what you're referring to be I believe

986
01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:08,280
Speaker 3: was early October this month the US Supreme Court declined

987
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:13,919
Speaker 3: to review the case, and so this has repeatedly come

988
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:19,120
Speaker 3: into question legally and along the way. Thinks in great

989
01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:24,680
Speaker 3: part to your incredibly thorough reporting here. I think more

990
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:29,200
Speaker 3: and more people are questioning more and more other cases

991
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:32,640
Speaker 3: that often slip by the wayside or or don't make

992
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:36,320
Speaker 3: it past you know, the local Post sentinel or what

993
01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:40,640
Speaker 3: have you. And with this, you know, one of the

994
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:43,560
Speaker 3: one of the questions that we always end with when

995
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:47,560
Speaker 3: we have these conversations is what what do you hope

996
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:51,760
Speaker 3: people can take from this? Case. What what do you

997
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:56,640
Speaker 3: hope people will walk away with after they have experienced

998
01:02:56,720 --> 01:02:57,600
Speaker 3: this investigation.

999
01:02:58,160 --> 01:03:01,439
Speaker 4: Well, I think that first and four or most, our

1000
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:05,320
Speaker 4: goal was to present the truth that to Forrest Johnson

1001
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 4: has experienced, because that was not presented in the traditional

1002
01:03:11,160 --> 01:03:15,000
Speaker 4: media coverage of this murder and these trials and conviction.

1003
01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:20,439
Speaker 4: So there is a record of what happened to this man,

1004
01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:25,360
Speaker 4: with the hope that it will turn the ship and

1005
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:29,680
Speaker 4: that there will be enough momentum where enough people will

1006
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:34,120
Speaker 4: lean into this and say, no, this cannot be Unfortunately,

1007
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:38,280
Speaker 4: there have been other cases where innocent people have ended

1008
01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:41,800
Speaker 4: up on death row and have been executed, and he

1009
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:46,240
Speaker 4: is at risk, and so we know that his attorneys

1010
01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:50,120
Speaker 4: know that, and they're continuing to fight the good fight

1011
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:52,840
Speaker 4: in the legal system. But I think what we were

1012
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:59,480
Speaker 4: hoping for, in addition to illuminating this injustice, which, as

1013
01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:03,280
Speaker 4: you mentioned, and is hard to imagine being cooped up

1014
01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:06,120
Speaker 4: in a cell for twenty five years away from your

1015
01:04:06,120 --> 01:04:09,479
Speaker 4: family and community when you're innocent. It's just I don't

1016
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:12,680
Speaker 4: know how he's maintained his sanity. But the other thing

1017
01:04:12,720 --> 01:04:19,240
Speaker 4: we were hoping to do is really unpack and unwind

1018
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:23,880
Speaker 4: this case in a way to show some of the

1019
01:04:23,920 --> 01:04:29,480
Speaker 4: systemic problems that people run into every day. Even people

1020
01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:35,840
Speaker 4: that are charged with misdemeanors run into inadequate defense, you know,

1021
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:42,120
Speaker 4: a bias from jurors or from cops themselves. There's all

1022
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:47,440
Speaker 4: sorts of problems that this case highlights that I think

1023
01:04:48,040 --> 01:04:52,040
Speaker 4: for people that are lucky enough to not be justice impacted,

1024
01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:57,200
Speaker 4: wouldn't have a way to get proximate to the dynamics

1025
01:04:57,200 --> 01:05:00,720
Speaker 4: that play out every day in jails and a courtrooms

1026
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:03,440
Speaker 4: across the United States. And so we really wanted to

1027
01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:06,800
Speaker 4: kind of hold their hand and guide them through a

1028
01:05:06,920 --> 01:05:12,200
Speaker 4: truly unbelievable and horrific Bonker's story about the links the

1029
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:15,600
Speaker 4: system will go to to get a conviction and what

1030
01:05:15,640 --> 01:05:18,840
Speaker 4: that has meant to Forrest Johnson and what it means

1031
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:23,400
Speaker 4: today for the people that were involved that feel like

1032
01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:26,640
Speaker 4: the evidence has now changed. So how do we fix that?

1033
01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:33,040
Speaker 5: You mentioned what a you know, thoughtful person to Forrest is,

1034
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:37,280
Speaker 5: and I've seen it in other stories involving wrongfully convicted

1035
01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:39,439
Speaker 5: death row inmates or at least people that are maybe

1036
01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:41,120
Speaker 5: not death or inmates, but just people that have been

1037
01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:43,880
Speaker 5: held for that long of their lives, and the case

1038
01:05:43,920 --> 01:05:47,520
Speaker 5: of Frank Gable. He was recently released, and that was

1039
01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:49,720
Speaker 5: a story that we have reported on and that we

1040
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:51,680
Speaker 5: had a podcast called Murder and Organ that was out

1041
01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:53,040
Speaker 5: on our podcast network.

1042
01:05:53,080 --> 01:05:55,520
Speaker 6: But he was always very similarly.

1043
01:05:55,080 --> 01:05:59,400
Speaker 5: Zen and kind of like thoughtful and you know, drew beautiful,

1044
01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:02,040
Speaker 5: you know, drawing and sent them to the brothers who

1045
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:03,760
Speaker 5: are kind of defending his case, who were actually the

1046
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:05,520
Speaker 5: brothers of the man he supposedly killed.

1047
01:06:05,520 --> 01:06:06,840
Speaker 6: But it just does go to show.

1048
01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:09,520
Speaker 5: This is another thing that the Lava folks are definitely

1049
01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:12,280
Speaker 5: cued in on, is that people do get out.

1050
01:06:12,640 --> 01:06:13,120
Speaker 6: This does it.

1051
01:06:13,240 --> 01:06:15,800
Speaker 5: You know, things are overturned and they are given new

1052
01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:19,520
Speaker 5: trials sometimes, but it is an uphill battle every step

1053
01:06:19,520 --> 01:06:19,880
Speaker 5: of the way.

1054
01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:24,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, I think that he maintains that

1055
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:30,600
Speaker 4: hope because it truly is reflective of his heart and he,

1056
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 4: like his cousin Antonio Green, who we interview in the podcast,

1057
01:06:34,160 --> 01:06:38,440
Speaker 4: told me, he has that kind of zen piece about

1058
01:06:38,520 --> 01:06:41,680
Speaker 4: him because he's good with God. He knows he didn't

1059
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:44,840
Speaker 4: do anything, and so he's told his family, you know,

1060
01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:48,680
Speaker 4: I'm good. I want to get out for y'all, but

1061
01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:52,920
Speaker 4: the things that are most important within me, I'm good.

1062
01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:56,000
Speaker 4: I just want the truth out there, and you know,

1063
01:06:56,240 --> 01:06:59,480
Speaker 4: he wants justice. I think his family does want some

1064
01:06:59,520 --> 01:07:05,520
Speaker 4: account of But yeah, as long as he is alive

1065
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:09,440
Speaker 4: and he wakes up every day, he has hope. And

1066
01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:12,800
Speaker 4: I try to maintain that too, that it's not over,

1067
01:07:13,400 --> 01:07:16,240
Speaker 4: that the state can still do the right thing. People

1068
01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:18,480
Speaker 4: can still do the right thing, and people are doing

1069
01:07:18,520 --> 01:07:21,960
Speaker 4: the right thing. You know, having prosecutors get on board

1070
01:07:22,800 --> 01:07:26,600
Speaker 4: advocating for someone who's on death row is highly unusual,

1071
01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:29,480
Speaker 4: so they've stepped out of their comfort zone. Some of

1072
01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:32,960
Speaker 4: these folks like Jeff Wallace and the current district Attorney

1073
01:07:33,000 --> 01:07:36,840
Speaker 4: Danny Carr and have you know, had to really dig

1074
01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:39,760
Speaker 4: deep and be honest about what happened here and what

1075
01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:43,200
Speaker 4: can we do. So we have seen some people do

1076
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:45,400
Speaker 4: the right thing. We just want to keep building on

1077
01:07:45,480 --> 01:07:49,400
Speaker 4: that momentum to try and as long as we can

1078
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:52,080
Speaker 4: to get this right, to make us right.

1079
01:07:52,920 --> 01:07:56,440
Speaker 3: And if you want to learn more about this, you

1080
01:07:56,600 --> 01:08:00,520
Speaker 3: can right now visit to Forrest Johnson dot com. That's

1081
01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:04,120
Speaker 3: T O F O R E. S. T. Johnson with

1082
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:08,720
Speaker 3: an h dot com to get more updates to learn

1083
01:08:09,040 --> 01:08:13,120
Speaker 3: much much more about the case. And Beth, we want

1084
01:08:13,120 --> 01:08:16,320
Speaker 3: to thank you so much for your time with this

1085
01:08:16,439 --> 01:08:22,000
Speaker 3: work that continues today. Ear Witness is out now, not

1086
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:25,320
Speaker 3: all of it, and as true story. Off air, we

1087
01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:28,240
Speaker 3: were trying to, you know, sweet talk you into giving

1088
01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:32,559
Speaker 3: us some preview episodes, but we are listening along with you, folks,

1089
01:08:33,360 --> 01:08:35,559
Speaker 3: And thank you not only for your time in this

1090
01:08:35,760 --> 01:08:39,320
Speaker 3: interview this evening, but thank you so much for the

1091
01:08:39,360 --> 01:08:43,240
Speaker 3: work you're putting in which has brought new visibility, new

1092
01:08:43,280 --> 01:08:48,040
Speaker 3: examination to this case. Where can people learn more about

1093
01:08:48,360 --> 01:08:51,680
Speaker 3: not just your work on the Forest Johnson case and Earwitness,

1094
01:08:51,960 --> 01:08:55,160
Speaker 3: but more of your additional work, like Matt mentioned, the

1095
01:08:55,240 --> 01:08:59,679
Speaker 3: deep dives you've done into specific prison systems and criminal

1096
01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:00,479
Speaker 3: justice issues.

1097
01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:04,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you so much for asking. I'm still on Twitter,

1098
01:09:04,560 --> 01:09:08,920
Speaker 4: which I guess is called X now. Yeah, I still

1099
01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:09,639
Speaker 4: call it Twitter.

1100
01:09:10,280 --> 01:09:14,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, everybody, everybody but Ella Musk still calls it Twitter.

1101
01:09:14,479 --> 01:09:14,760
Speaker 4: I know.

1102
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:17,719
Speaker 5: It's like, stop trying to make X happen, Elon Musk,

1103
01:09:17,760 --> 01:09:18,800
Speaker 5: It's not gonna happen.

1104
01:09:19,560 --> 01:09:22,800
Speaker 4: I have a substack called Moth to Flame where I

1105
01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:28,479
Speaker 4: publish a lot of first person writing about justice, reporting

1106
01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:32,439
Speaker 4: and other things. And yeah, I'm on Twitter, and I

1107
01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:36,840
Speaker 4: publish independently so people can google me and find some

1108
01:09:36,920 --> 01:09:38,799
Speaker 4: of the work that I've done, but it's it's mainly

1109
01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:42,200
Speaker 4: on my substack and I have a landing page which

1110
01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:43,880
Speaker 4: is just Bethshelburne dot com.

1111
01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:47,719
Speaker 2: Amazing And when you are ready to listen to ear Witness,

1112
01:09:47,840 --> 01:09:50,760
Speaker 2: make sure you head to Lava for Good. That's l

1113
01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:53,400
Speaker 2: A V A F O R G O O D

1114
01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:58,960
Speaker 2: dot com slash ear Witness because you can find pictures

1115
01:09:59,439 --> 01:10:04,080
Speaker 2: of speci places, There's all kinds of amazing resources that

1116
01:10:04,160 --> 01:10:06,759
Speaker 2: are on that site. As you're going through and listening

1117
01:10:06,840 --> 01:10:10,080
Speaker 2: to the episodes. It's a cool experience and I would

1118
01:10:10,120 --> 01:10:10,880
Speaker 2: highly recommend it.

1119
01:10:11,600 --> 01:10:14,599
Speaker 4: Thank you. Yeah, we wanted to put source material as

1120
01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:18,519
Speaker 4: much of it online as possible, so Lava and the

1121
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:20,400
Speaker 4: folks there have done a great job of laying it

1122
01:10:20,439 --> 01:10:23,599
Speaker 4: all out for listeners to look at as they're listening

1123
01:10:23,680 --> 01:10:27,840
Speaker 4: to this just absolutely bananas bonkers story.

1124
01:10:27,840 --> 01:10:29,880
Speaker 6: And that stuff is great supplementary material.

1125
01:10:29,920 --> 01:10:32,040
Speaker 5: But I mean, just to the original point you made,

1126
01:10:32,080 --> 01:10:34,240
Speaker 5: like this is the kind of story that, like the

1127
01:10:34,320 --> 01:10:38,000
Speaker 5: podcast medium was made for because of the very you know,

1128
01:10:38,120 --> 01:10:41,800
Speaker 5: questionable nature of to do our ears deceive us and

1129
01:10:41,840 --> 01:10:45,400
Speaker 5: things like that. So it really well done and I

1130
01:10:45,720 --> 01:10:48,320
Speaker 5: think we all are very much enjoyed. I mean enjoy

1131
01:10:48,439 --> 01:10:50,519
Speaker 5: is a strong word. It's a difficult thing to hear,

1132
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:53,320
Speaker 5: but you really tell the story so compellingly and it

1133
01:10:53,479 --> 01:10:56,200
Speaker 5: moves and I think I joked before you even sort

1134
01:10:56,200 --> 01:10:57,200
Speaker 5: of that you get just.

1135
01:10:57,200 --> 01:10:58,639
Speaker 6: Mad enough where you want to keep going.

1136
01:10:58,680 --> 01:11:00,000
Speaker 5: You don't want to throw your phone out the way

1137
01:11:00,400 --> 01:11:02,479
Speaker 5: because it's a tough one.

1138
01:11:02,520 --> 01:11:03,280
Speaker 6: It's a tough one.

1139
01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:06,640
Speaker 4: It is a tough one. But I really appreciate, I

1140
01:11:06,680 --> 01:11:09,360
Speaker 4: really appreciate all of you listening and supporting.

1141
01:11:10,280 --> 01:11:13,360
Speaker 3: So tune in to your witness, folks, don't delay. It's

1142
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:16,800
Speaker 3: available on your favorite podcast platform of choice to day.

1143
01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:23,760
Speaker 3: And with that, folks, we cannot wait to hear your

1144
01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:27,880
Speaker 3: thoughts on your witness. Also, we want to hear your

1145
01:11:28,040 --> 01:11:34,120
Speaker 3: stories or experiences with similar situations because, as Beth pointed out,

1146
01:11:34,439 --> 01:11:38,639
Speaker 3: there are a lot of unfortunate commonalities in a broken

1147
01:11:38,920 --> 01:11:43,439
Speaker 3: justice system that sometimes does not seem incentivized to be fixed.

1148
01:11:43,720 --> 01:11:46,599
Speaker 3: So we want to be easy to find online. Here's

1149
01:11:46,640 --> 01:11:47,760
Speaker 3: how you can get in touch with us.

1150
01:11:48,360 --> 01:11:48,720
Speaker 6: That's right.

1151
01:11:48,720 --> 01:11:51,919
Speaker 5: You can find out the handle Conspiracy Stuff Show on Twitter.

1152
01:11:52,120 --> 01:11:55,720
Speaker 5: It's called Twitter damn it Okay. You might also know

1153
01:11:55,760 --> 01:11:59,240
Speaker 5: it as X if you're new to the Internet. We

1154
01:11:59,280 --> 01:12:03,519
Speaker 5: are also concer spirasey Stuff on Facebook, and YouTube on

1155
01:12:03,600 --> 01:12:05,760
Speaker 5: Instagram and TikTok or Conspiracy Stuff Show.

1156
01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:08,360
Speaker 2: If you want to leave us a voicemail, call one

1157
01:12:08,520 --> 01:12:13,400
Speaker 2: eight three three STDWYTK. You've got three minutes. Say whatever

1158
01:12:13,479 --> 01:12:16,120
Speaker 2: you'd like, give yourself a cool nickname, and let us

1159
01:12:16,160 --> 01:12:17,840
Speaker 2: know if we can use your name and message on

1160
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:19,880
Speaker 2: the air. If you don't want to do any of that,

1161
01:12:19,920 --> 01:12:22,519
Speaker 2: but you've still got something to say, why not instead

1162
01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:24,160
Speaker 2: send us a good old fashioned email.

1163
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:27,559
Speaker 3: We are We are the people who read every email

1164
01:12:27,640 --> 01:12:29,479
Speaker 3: we get, and let me point this out because we

1165
01:12:29,520 --> 01:12:32,439
Speaker 3: haven't been saying it lately. What we love about the emails.

1166
01:12:32,439 --> 01:12:35,479
Speaker 3: You can attach photos, you can send us links. We

1167
01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:37,640
Speaker 3: can't wait. Just take us to the edge of the

1168
01:12:37,680 --> 01:13:18,080
Speaker 3: rabbit hole. We'll do the rest. Conspiracydiheartradio dot com.

1169
01:13:00,160 --> 01:13:02,160
Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

1170
01:13:02,320 --> 01:13:06,840
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1171
01:13:06,920 --> 01:13:09,799
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.