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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Paul, All right, Kate, how are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm doing well. You've been in this new gig with

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Speaker 2: OFFERAM for a while now, and I think that people

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Speaker 2: might wonder what you actually do because you've said consulting

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Speaker 2: for them, and you have made this like blood oath

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Speaker 2: even though we are never in the same city, to

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Speaker 2: me that you won't leave right right, Harry Bones. Ever,

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Speaker 2: we're in this in the long haul here, but I'm

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Speaker 2: loaning you out, So will you let us know kind

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Speaker 2: of what is the process with OFFEROM is as cold cases?

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Speaker 2: What do you end up doing with them specifically, Well.

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Speaker 3: You know, basically, I'm doing what I used to do

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Speaker 3: when I was active within law enforcement. I'm just now

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Speaker 3: doing it sort of from a civilian perspective, but applying

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Speaker 3: the same skill sets, experience, as expertise that I did

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Speaker 3: when I was working the cases for the Sheriff's office,

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Speaker 3: District attorney's offices out there in Contra Costa County. And

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Speaker 3: you know, really what I do is I talk to

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Speaker 3: law enforcement agencies. I have an approach. The way I

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Speaker 3: approach casework is something that I've learned over time as

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Speaker 3: well as learned through formal training within crime scene investigation

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Speaker 3: crime scene reconstruction. And I take a look at the

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Speaker 3: case files. You know, if law enforcement is really needing

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Speaker 3: some assistance in understanding what happened and where the best

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Speaker 3: evidence is in the case, I ask for the autopsy reports,

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Speaker 3: autopsy photos, crime scene reports, crime scene photos, forensic lab results,

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Speaker 3: and I start there and I assess, you know, based

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Speaker 3: on the injuries, the cause of death to the victim,

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Speaker 3: other things that I'm seeing at autopsy. I can then

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Speaker 3: take that information and then interpret the evidence that I

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Speaker 3: see at the crime scene, like blood patterns at the

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Speaker 3: crime scene, and I can start reconstructing the interactions between

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Speaker 3: the offender and the victim. And then this becomes informative

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Speaker 3: in terms of where where is going to be the

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Speaker 3: best evidence that can help solve the case. And typically

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Speaker 3: you know, of course, it's looking for evidence that the

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Speaker 3: offender has left on inside the victim at the crime scene,

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Speaker 3: et cetera. I review the lab reports that have been

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Speaker 3: done up to this point in time, and sometimes these

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Speaker 3: are cases that are from the nineteen seventies and so

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Speaker 3: looking at burial technology and seeing what was done, what

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Speaker 3: were the results, what needs to be redone using modern technology,

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Speaker 3: and then make recommendations, you know, in terms of this

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Speaker 3: is the best evidence that I feel is what should

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Speaker 3: be done submitted to OTHRUM in order to move forward

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Speaker 3: with the genealogy process. And of course I'm also talking

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Speaker 3: to these detectives and giving investigative advice, you know, and

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Speaker 3: it's not just restricted to the DNA side, It's across

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Speaker 3: the entire spectrum of investigative tactic, investigative resources. And if

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Speaker 3: genealogy results come back, you know, I provide advice to

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Speaker 3: the Agency of the investigators on how to proceed with

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Speaker 3: that information because there's very specific steps in terms of

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Speaker 3: how law enforcement needs to move forward in order to

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Speaker 3: hopefully identify the offender and then generate probable cost to

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Speaker 3: make an arrest.

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Speaker 2: So these are not specifically cold cases and right.

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Speaker 3: No, absolutely, And that's one of the if you want

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Speaker 3: to call it, misperceptions about this genealogy tools that it's

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Speaker 3: only a cold case tool, and it is. Obviously it's

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Speaker 3: been highly successful with the older cases. But if there

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Speaker 3: is an active public safety threat, let's say there's a

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Speaker 3: serial rapist on the loose, you absolutely want to use

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Speaker 3: this tool in order to try to catch that rapist

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Speaker 3: before he victimizes again. And so that is part of

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Speaker 3: what I will help the investigators with. You know, we

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Speaker 3: are saving lives utilizing this this genealogy process and employing

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Speaker 3: the technology that authoram can bring to the table.

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Speaker 2: Well, I know this really flips a switch for you

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Speaker 2: because as much as you enjoy doing podcasts, you know,

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Speaker 2: and doing various things, I know you really really love

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Speaker 2: being in the field and you want to be involved

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Speaker 2: in active cases from the seventies all the way through,

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Speaker 2: and so I know that this is like a little

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Speaker 2: bit of an itch that you needed to scratch. And

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Speaker 2: so that's great. Like I said, as long as you

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Speaker 2: come back home to us, we're okay, and you said, yes, yes.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I have committed to you. No, but it really

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Speaker 3: has you know. It's interesting is even though I've obviously

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Speaker 3: been very busy since I retired from law enforcement and

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Speaker 3: doing the True Crime podcast, doing the True Crime TV documentaries,

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Speaker 3: and I had done some consulting with law enforcement, I

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Speaker 3: will say that, you know, by taking on this formal

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Speaker 3: position with author it has enhanced my mood. You know.

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Speaker 3: It's like I got a little more pep in my

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Speaker 3: step because now I feel like this might sound bad,

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Speaker 3: but I feel like I'm I'm contributing again, if that

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Speaker 3: makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and it keeps you updated, and I mean

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Speaker 2: you're gonna learn every single tiny new development in technology

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Speaker 2: because authrooms on top of it, they're the ones doing

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Speaker 2: it and developing it, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's just fascinating to see, you know,

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Speaker 3: the technology that Authorum has been using, and then they're

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Speaker 3: constantly evaluating new technologies that haven't been utilized in casework yet,

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Speaker 3: you know, so they're very progressive. It is amazing just

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Speaker 3: to see, you know, coming out of the public sector,

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Speaker 3: we're slow moving, right with new technology and everything else.

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Speaker 3: We're typically quite frankly twenty years behind the private sector.

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Speaker 3: And now being on the private side, yeah, there's the

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Speaker 3: sort of the public bureaucracy isn't there, and so they

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Speaker 3: can move quickly, you know, and you still have to

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Speaker 3: abide by proper science typic principles. You need to validate

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Speaker 3: new technologies, demonstrate that these technologies are something that can

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Speaker 3: be used in case work without harming the evidence, and

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Speaker 3: all the various types of principles that are solid within

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Speaker 3: forensic science. But it is it is fascinating to watch

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Speaker 3: the private sector and how much quicker it can move

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Speaker 3: as emerging technologies start making their way out of the

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Speaker 3: research the R and D side and into actually a

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Speaker 3: practical application.

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Speaker 2: Well, we're going to need your sciencey skills, if that's

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Speaker 2: a word, sciencey skills, sciencey. We need your sciencey skills

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Speaker 2: because this is a case that I would say is

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Speaker 2: seventy percent mystery relationships, odd circumstances, and then thirty percent

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Speaker 2: I don't understand science, and you're going to have to

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Speaker 2: explain it to us in a very simple way. And

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Speaker 2: this is sort of like an opera type story, I think.

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Speaker 2: So I'm excited to take you back to nineteen sixty

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Speaker 2: three Australia. Let's set the scene, Okay, we are going

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Speaker 2: to jump right into it. One of I think some

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Speaker 2: of the most interesting stories that we talk about are

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Speaker 2: the lover's Lane stories. It seems like an endless supply

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Speaker 2: of these, and I know, we go back to Zodiac

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Speaker 2: to talk about Lover's Lane sometimes and we've covered I

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Speaker 2: feel like at least three or four of these. I

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Speaker 2: don't think any have been as mysterious as the ones

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Speaker 2: that I'm about to tell you about. But you know,

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Speaker 2: let's just talk generally real quick about Lover's Lane. You've

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Speaker 2: got generally two people who are vulnerable late at night,

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Speaker 2: rural area because they want privacy, and this just seems like,

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Speaker 2: you know, the perfect opportunity of a crime of opportunity.

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Speaker 3: I guess, well, that's exactly it. These victims they've isolated themselves,

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Speaker 3: right because they want that privacy, and they're focused on

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Speaker 3: each other typicle when they're isolated, and so it's very

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Speaker 3: easy for an offender to approach them if whether they're

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Speaker 3: in a vehicle or whether they're just at a particular

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Speaker 3: location and to get close to where now the offender

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Speaker 3: can exhibit some sort of control through force and or

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Speaker 3: fear and then take advantage of the victims being there

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Speaker 3: and being vulnerable. So it's something that offenders purposefully seek out.

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Speaker 3: And of course there's instances where the offender just stumbles across,

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Speaker 3: you know, a lover's laying type of scenario, but oftentimes

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Speaker 3: the offenders have prior knowledge of the location and so

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Speaker 3: that becomes very telling in terms of, well, is this

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Speaker 3: an offender that has local knowledge? Is this an offender

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Speaker 3: that has some prior relationship with one or the other

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Speaker 3: of the victims that are out there, And that's just

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Speaker 3: part of the assessment in taking a look at this

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Speaker 3: type of case.

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Speaker 2: Well, with this type of case, like I said, one

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Speaker 2: big head scratching mystery as far as I'm concerned. So

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Speaker 2: here we are New Year's Day, always an exciting morning,

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Speaker 2: eight thirty in the morning, really early nineteen sixty three,

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Speaker 2: and we're in a suburb of Sydney, Australia called Chatswood

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Speaker 2: on the banks of a river called Lane Cove River.

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Speaker 2: This is a lover's lane area. But it's morning time,

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Speaker 2: so probably not going to see too many lovers out

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Speaker 2: here in the open. We have two teenage boys who

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Speaker 2: are walking along the river bank. They want to collect

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Speaker 2: golf balls, and this is the easiest way to get

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Speaker 2: to a local golf course to get golf balls I

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Speaker 2: presume to sell to golfers later on, and they see

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Speaker 2: a man lying down in the grass. It's New Year's Day.

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Speaker 2: He probably is recovering from drinking too much. It's summer

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Speaker 2: January in Australia, so it's warm, and they just assume

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Speaker 2: that he's passed out drunk in the grass after, you know,

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Speaker 2: having a fun night the night before. We have actually

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Speaker 2: had this happen to us in Australia before. You remember

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Speaker 2: the man who it was a big mystery sitting up

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Speaker 2: right on the beach. People thought he was drunk, and

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Speaker 2: then the next thing we know, he slumped over and

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Speaker 2: he's dead. And then they're trying to figure out who

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Speaker 2: this guy is. And it took decades. So I feel

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Speaker 2: like we're kind of flashing back to this, except we

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Speaker 2: will find out who this man is. So we've got

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Speaker 2: these two boys who do not want trouble with a

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Speaker 2: guy who could be still half drunk. They go to

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Speaker 2: the golf course, they get the golf balls, they come home.

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Speaker 2: This is about an hour and a half later. He's

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Speaker 2: still there and then the boys think something is going on.

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Speaker 2: They kind of creep closer to him. He is pale,

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Speaker 2: his lips are purple, and they freak out, as I would.

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Speaker 2: They go to a kiosk, which in Australia is kind

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Speaker 2: of like a snack bar for us. I might not

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Speaker 2: be describing that right, but that's the closest I think

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Speaker 2: we could get. It's at a nearby park, and the

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Speaker 2: police are they get to the scene, they check his pulse.

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Speaker 2: He is dead. Okay, so now the mystery begins. So

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Speaker 2: his face is pale, his lips are purple. Is the purple?

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Speaker 2: I don't read that description all that much. We don't

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Speaker 2: talk about that. Is that just blood loss or what

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Speaker 2: is that?

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Speaker 3: This sounds just like a normal dead body at this

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Speaker 3: point in time. Obviously with the lack of blood flow

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Speaker 3: and a dead body, you know, the blood settles with gravity,

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Speaker 3: you know, and this is what we call lividity. And

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Speaker 3: so if he's you know, this is where it's like, well,

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Speaker 3: I'd need to see how he was positioned, how he

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Speaker 3: was laying. Are the lips purple because you know, he's

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Speaker 3: somewhat face down and you've got more blood kind of

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Speaker 3: settling towards you know, the front of the face. But

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Speaker 3: then the description should be that his face is looking flushed,

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Speaker 3: with the lips looking dark. The fact that his face

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Speaker 3: is looking pale tells me he's most likely mostly face

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Speaker 3: up and this is just lack of blood flow to

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Speaker 3: the lips and they're no longer, you know, looking that

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Speaker 3: nice pinkish, you know color.

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Speaker 2: Well, let me tell you this next bit of detail,

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Speaker 2: and then I'll show you a picture. Sorry, it's not

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Speaker 2: an actual picture of the victim. It is a police

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Speaker 2: officer re enacting exactly what they believe the position that

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Speaker 2: the man was found in. But it could be helpful

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Speaker 2: for you, okay. And there's also a little bit of

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Speaker 2: a map. Okay, So he is dead. They examine him further,

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Speaker 2: and they notice immediately that he has socks on and

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Speaker 2: he has a shirt on, but he does not have

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Speaker 2: any underwear on. Remember Lover's lane. He has a suit

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Speaker 2: jacket and he has pants, and they have both been

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Speaker 2: placed on top of him, like covering him up, so

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Speaker 2: it looks like he's wearing them, but he's not. And

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Speaker 2: so that's why I didn't want to show you the

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Speaker 2: photo because that's what the police officer is doing. So

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Speaker 2: do you have any questions about that? You understand he's

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Speaker 2: half naked, he's laying down, face down, and he's covered

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Speaker 2: up with a suit jacket and pants that are his.

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Speaker 2: As maybe a modesty thing, I'm not sure.

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Speaker 3: Well, covering anytime a victim has been covered up, you know,

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Speaker 3: that's something that behaviorally is significant. In this scenario, I'm

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Speaker 3: assuming that the suit jacket is placed over him like

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Speaker 3: it looks like he's wearing it. You know, it's almost

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Speaker 3: like anatomically correct as well as the pants. You know,

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Speaker 3: this may be the offender just trying to from people,

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Speaker 3: you know, walking by, like the boys. You know, if

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Speaker 3: there's just a casual glance, they're just going to think,

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Speaker 3: oh that that guy is you know, he's asleep, he's

249
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Speaker 3: passed out, you know, just to try to further delay

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Speaker 3: the discovery of this dead body. And I think that

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Speaker 3: that's likely what's going on here. But you know, is

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Speaker 3: it a modesty thing, I don't think so. Is it

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Speaker 3: a taunt with the information right now? I don't think so.

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Speaker 3: I think it literally is just well I've got a

255
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Speaker 3: naked dead guy here. People are going to you know,

256
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Speaker 3: know right away that there's something wrong. I need more

257
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Speaker 3: time to you know, separate myself if the offenders, the

258
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Speaker 3: one that covered him up, separate myself from this crime scene.

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Speaker 3: And so try to dress a dead body is very hard.

260
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Speaker 3: So let's just approximate the dress by utilizing the man's

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Speaker 3: own clothes.

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Speaker 2: Well, it fooled the teenage boys because they walked right

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Speaker 2: by him before. I don't know how closely they got

264
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Speaker 2: to him, but you know, if he hadn't been covered up,

265
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Speaker 2: they certainly would have noticed a half naked man laying there,

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Speaker 2: just wearing socks and a shirt. So let me show

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Speaker 2: you the reenactment as I would call it. Okay, you

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Speaker 2: see the police officer there.

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Speaker 3: Yep.

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Speaker 2: They believe this is exactly the way that this guy

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Speaker 2: was found. Gilbert Bogel is. We'll find out his name.

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Speaker 3: Okay. So I'm looking at a photo of this man

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Speaker 3: laying face down. The photo shows his head closest to

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Speaker 3: the camera and his feet furthest away. His right arm

275
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Speaker 3: is up and out to the right with his hand

276
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Speaker 3: there has a shirt on. Head is turned to his right,

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Speaker 3: and he's literally just laying on his stomach, you know,

278
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Speaker 3: face down. Now his face being turned the way it is,

279
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Speaker 3: he's not you know, it's not straight down into the ground,

280
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Speaker 3: but turned all the way to the right. And this

281
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Speaker 3: is where the description I was talking about earlier related

282
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Speaker 3: to his face looks pale. That's because the blood, you know,

283
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Speaker 3: he's turned to his right, so the right part of

284
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Speaker 3: his face is high and the left part of his

285
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Speaker 3: face is low, and so the blood is going to

286
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Speaker 3: be settling down to the left side of his face,

287
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,520
Speaker 3: which you can't see. So all the parts of the

288
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Speaker 3: face that you can see, the blood has drained out of,

289
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Speaker 3: if you will. And that that's why his face from

290
00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,919
Speaker 3: the position he's lying in looks pale, and his lips

291
00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,600
Speaker 3: also would look pale, and in all likelihood, when they

292
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Speaker 3: moved the victim, the left side of the face would

293
00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:18,200
Speaker 3: be more purplish looking and would have clear areas where

294
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Speaker 3: that side of his face is actually in the ground.

295
00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,159
Speaker 3: You know, that's where the compression of the tissue doesn't

296
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:27,120
Speaker 3: allow this blood you know that's draining down into it

297
00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:31,159
Speaker 3: to be there. And that type of once this lividity sets,

298
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Speaker 3: blood will if the dead body is moved shortly after

299
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Speaker 3: you know, the blood is settled. The blood can repartition

300
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Speaker 3: with gravity, but after a certain point, this blood sets,

301
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Speaker 3: this lividity sets, And so this is where I would

302
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:51,840
Speaker 3: be able to take a look at the lividity patterns

303
00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,359
Speaker 3: in a dead body and determine if that dead body

304
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Speaker 3: had been moved after death and after the lividity settled,

305
00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,359
Speaker 3: because then it's not consistent with the position of the

306
00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:01,200
Speaker 3: body has found.

307
00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,359
Speaker 2: Well, I think this is an interesting reenactment because if

308
00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,119
Speaker 2: you look at those pants, they are laid perfectly out,

309
00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,840
Speaker 2: like I could absolutely see why the boys walked by him.

310
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Speaker 2: And if you look at the grass, it's flattened out.

311
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Speaker 2: I mean, this is not He is not in brush,

312
00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:19,000
Speaker 2: he hasn't been tossed in brush. He's open. So it

313
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Speaker 2: fooled these boys.

314
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Speaker 3: In this approximation of how the victim was found, there's

315
00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:30,000
Speaker 3: no question that the person who is putting his suit

316
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Speaker 3: pants and suit coat over the victim is doing this

317
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Speaker 3: just to try to delay discovery of the body. Now,

318
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Speaker 3: you know, if this grass is representative of how trampled

319
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Speaker 3: down the grass was around the victim's body, you know

320
00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,080
Speaker 3: that indicates that there is probably a fair amount of

321
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Speaker 3: some sort of activity surrounding the victim in the victim's body,

322
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Speaker 3: whether that's the you were talking to, A lover's lane

323
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Speaker 3: is at the victim with another person and they were

324
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Speaker 3: at this location, and then that other person has gone,

325
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:05,840
Speaker 3: and maybe is a victim that's at a different location,

326
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Speaker 3: or was there some sort of interaction between this dead

327
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Speaker 3: male and the offender. Let's say there's a fight or

328
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Speaker 3: a struggle in which now you have a lot of

329
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Speaker 3: the surrounding brush that's being trampled during that fight. Of course,

330
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Speaker 3: you haven't told me anything about his injuries yet, so

331
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Speaker 3: I can only speculate as to whether or not it

332
00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,479
Speaker 3: indicates that, you know, there was combat between the victim

333
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:30,800
Speaker 3: and an offender.

334
00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,800
Speaker 2: Right, And we'll get to injuries, and we'll get to

335
00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:36,800
Speaker 2: his partner in just a minute, and I'll show you

336
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,960
Speaker 2: a map. But I have to let this unfold organically,

337
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:45,160
Speaker 2: like the police officers would. Okay, something interesting, he has

338
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,720
Speaker 2: something weird in between the suit and his shirt there.

339
00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:53,760
Speaker 2: Describe it as underfelt. It's the material that goes between

340
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,680
Speaker 2: a floor and a carpet. Okay, so you know, I

341
00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,320
Speaker 2: would say a carpet pad for me, But it says

342
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,880
Speaker 2: it's a square that's been laid over him. It could

343
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,040
Speaker 2: be something that was found and the offender just wanted

344
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:08,480
Speaker 2: to put something, you know, on his back. But it's

345
00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:10,360
Speaker 2: of course very clear that he was not the one

346
00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:13,399
Speaker 2: who did this because it was on his back. He

347
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,200
Speaker 2: didn't cover himself up in this way. Is what the

348
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:20,440
Speaker 2: investigators believe. It's weird, but they just are noting everything.

349
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Speaker 3: My initial thought with that is this felt was probably

350
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,480
Speaker 3: something that was either at the scene or if this

351
00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:29,879
Speaker 3: is the location in which the offender had access to,

352
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,639
Speaker 3: let's say, his vehicle. You know, his initial thought is

353
00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:34,320
Speaker 3: I need to cover up this body, and so he

354
00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,400
Speaker 3: brings the felt out and then he gets the idea

355
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,560
Speaker 3: to utilize the man's own clothing. That would be my

356
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,960
Speaker 3: initial guess as to why this felt is there. You know,

357
00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:46,800
Speaker 3: I've got one case that I can think of in

358
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,080
Speaker 3: which a woman's body had been transported in the offender's

359
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:55,240
Speaker 3: vehicle and this foam padding had stuck to the woman's

360
00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:58,760
Speaker 3: face because of the blood, and so when the offender

361
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,720
Speaker 3: pulled the body out, the woman's body out, that foam

362
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:06,120
Speaker 3: just went with the woman and her body. And that happens,

363
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,440
Speaker 3: you know, especially in the haste that these offenders are

364
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,720
Speaker 3: trying to cover up the crime and get away. Here

365
00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:15,840
Speaker 3: right now with what I know, I don't know if

366
00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,639
Speaker 3: this man's body was transported from a different location and

367
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,760
Speaker 3: placed here, or if this is where the man was

368
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 3: killed with the felt I can't say. Is that something

369
00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,520
Speaker 3: out of the offender's environment, or was it from the

370
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:29,560
Speaker 3: crime scene and the offender just took advantage that it

371
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:29,920
Speaker 3: was there.

372
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,520
Speaker 2: Well, let's continue on, because the police now want to

373
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:40,560
Speaker 2: know who he was here with. They search at about

374
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,119
Speaker 2: forty feet away from the man, along the river bank,

375
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,639
Speaker 2: they find another body. The teenagers had not seen this body.

376
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,960
Speaker 2: There's a lot going on. There's like mangroves and all

377
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,680
Speaker 2: kinds of you know, vegetation. Even though it looks sort

378
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,440
Speaker 2: of clear where the man was, she was a little

379
00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 2: more hidden. Her dress is not fully on, it's her waist.

380
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:05,320
Speaker 2: Her body had been covered by flattened cardboard beer boxes,

381
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,399
Speaker 2: which we assume came from the area. She's on her back,

382
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,600
Speaker 2: so she's laying face up, but for some reason the

383
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,560
Speaker 2: investigators think that she had been covered up. Also, I'm

384
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,440
Speaker 2: not clear why they think that, because I don't know

385
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 2: why she wouldn't if she wanted to pull the cardboard

386
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,560
Speaker 2: over her. I don't know why she would, but they

387
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,760
Speaker 2: feel like somebody else covered her up. Let me tell

388
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:28,760
Speaker 2: you two more pieces of information and then I'll let

389
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,639
Speaker 2: you loose on this. Her feet and her knees are muddy.

390
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:34,920
Speaker 2: She had two abrasions, one on her nose and one

391
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,919
Speaker 2: on her shoulder. The man and the woman's underwear. The

392
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 2: woman's underwear was off, his belt was off. They all

393
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 2: three are found near her. So both bears of underwear

394
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 2: and his belt are off, and there is also vomit

395
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 2: and feces near both people. And that is that so far,

396
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:55,920
Speaker 2: I told you, head scratcher.

397
00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:00,720
Speaker 3: The initial things that I am wanting to try to

398
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:07,479
Speaker 3: determine is assuming that the the two dead victims work together.

399
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 3: I'm assuming that we're talking a lover's laane type of thing,

400
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:15,640
Speaker 3: and then somebody comes and kills the two. Is where

401
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 3: was the initial contact? You know, are the is one

402
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 3: or the other victims bodies? The location of where, let's

403
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 3: say during life, they are engaged in let's let's say

404
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 3: some sort of consensual sexual encounter, and then an offender

405
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 3: comes up to them and one or the other, you know,

406
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,680
Speaker 3: it ultimately is separated or is there a third location

407
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 3: where the offender initially contacts the victims and each of

408
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 3: the victims' bodies are now in two separate locations, you know,

409
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 3: And is the offender moving these victims' bodies to try

410
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 3: to hide them? I think the you know, the both victims'

411
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 3: bodies being covered, you know, strongly suggests that, you know,

412
00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 3: the offender is trying to delay discovery. So that's the

413
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,280
Speaker 3: initial thing that I would want to try to determine

414
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 3: and looking at this case because there could be evidence

415
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 3: at a completely different location than where the two victims'

416
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:14,959
Speaker 3: bodies are discovered. Now, with the woman obviously you know,

417
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 3: the face up, the dress being down, you know, her

418
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 3: underwear is off, is there a possibility that, you know,

419
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,200
Speaker 3: some of that could have occurred with the consensual accounter

420
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:28,880
Speaker 3: with her partner, but it also could be the offender.

421
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 3: You know, this is a sexually motivated crime, And in

422
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 3: this particular scenario, I would always assume that there is

423
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 3: a sexual motivated crime with either one of the victims.

424
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 3: Can't say it's just the woman, you know, I've got

425
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 3: a man that's also nude from the waist down with

426
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:48,879
Speaker 3: the woman, you know, the mud on her knees and

427
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 3: on her feet, you know, with the feet, is this

428
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 3: something that it looks like she was upright in the

429
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 3: mud or was stomping around in the mud? I doubt,

430
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 3: you know, going there with their partner, that they are

431
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,920
Speaker 3: purposely going to try to go into some muddy location

432
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 3: as part of their consensual encounter. So this likely is

433
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,360
Speaker 3: something that's happening later in the series of events that happened.

434
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 3: The abrasion to her nose, you know, that's that's a

435
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,199
Speaker 3: little bit interesting from just well what does it look like,

436
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 3: because sometimes you can have abrasions to the nose during

437
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 3: like asphyxiation attempts, you know, if something is being pressed

438
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 3: against her face or during a struggle. Of course, you

439
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 3: know that an abrasion could easily happen, whether it's you know,

440
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 3: from the offender's own garments or her face is being

441
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 3: pressed down into the ground during a struggle. You know,

442
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,640
Speaker 3: who knows what's going on there. But that's probably at

443
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 3: this point all I can discern without you telling me more.

444
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,719
Speaker 2: Well, I know you want to hear about the autopsy

445
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 2: and you know all of those results, and normally I

446
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 2: would say sure, Paul, but I'm going to wait because

447
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 2: I do I want to tell you about. I think

448
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 2: the dynamic between these two people is going to be important.

449
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 2: It's not going to take long, and then we can

450
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 2: get into the nitty gritty of the investigation. These are

451
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 2: interesting people, to say the least. So the bodies are

452
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 2: quickly identified through IDs as doctor Gilbert Boegel, he's thirty eight,

453
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:25,120
Speaker 2: and missus Margaret Chandler, who's ten years younger. They are

454
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 2: married to other people. They are together, and he is

455
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 2: a physicist who works at a place called the Commonwealth

456
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 2: Scientific and Industrial Research Organization, which is CSIRO I love acronyms.

457
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 2: It's an Australian government agency that does research across a

458
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 2: bunch of different areas of science. Margaret had worked there

459
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 2: before she got married to a guy named Jeffrey and

460
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 2: they had two kids and one is only nine months old.

461
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 2: Jeffrey is a lab tech. Her husband he works there.

462
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 2: So now you've got three people who are connected through

463
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 2: this research organization. So Gilbert Bogel is this rock star physicist.

464
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 2: He's from New Zealand. He was a Rhodes scholar. He

465
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 2: is actually supposed to leave to work at Bell Laboratories,

466
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,640
Speaker 2: in the US in just a few weeks. He, as

467
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 2: I said, is married. He's got four kids who the

468
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,360
Speaker 2: youngest is four months old. So these are two people

469
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 2: who are together in lover's lane. Of course, the press

470
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,120
Speaker 2: latches on once this all comes out, and of course

471
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 2: the lead is that this incredible physicist who probably has

472
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 2: all sorts of secrets from the government off Australia to

473
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 2: be able to sell whenever he wants, and it turns

474
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 2: into a big conspiracy. There's that angle, But there also

475
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,719
Speaker 2: becomes the angle of of course you've got two married people,

476
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 2: and you've got a lab tech as a husband who

477
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:52,360
Speaker 2: is jealous and certainly jealous that his wife is sleeping

478
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 2: with a physicist at their company. You know, she's having

479
00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:00,640
Speaker 2: an extra marital fair. The interesting thing is they were

480
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 2: in an open marriage. They're part of the subculture in

481
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 2: Sydney called the Sydney Push. I had never heard of

482
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 2: this before. From the nineteen forties to the nineteen seventies.

483
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 2: It's a movement of intellectuals like Jeffrey Boegel and academics

484
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 2: and journalists who would get together in Sydney's pubs and

485
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 2: private residences for parties and debates. But there's this free

486
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,719
Speaker 2: love aspect to it, and open relationships are very acceptable,

487
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 2: and everybody in their circle knew that both of these

488
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 2: couples were engaged in an open relationship. Now we can

489
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 2: stop there, because the words open relationship to me are

490
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 2: a red flag when we're talking about murder. But it

491
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 2: really does seem like this was, you know, the kind

492
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 2: of relationship where it didn't bother you know, any of

493
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 2: these couples to switch partners.

494
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:56,479
Speaker 3: You've mentioned to potential investigative motives if you will, and

495
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 3: you know this idea that Gilbert has states or you

496
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 3: know whatever, and maybe he was killed for those purposes.

497
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 3: Now you've got what, on the surface appears to be

498
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 3: almost your typical lover's triangle, but that gets mitigated somewhat

499
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 3: by the culture that they're in, these open marriages. And

500
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 3: of course Jeffrey, the husband of Margaret, would have to

501
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 3: be extensively interviewed, you know, about not not only you know,

502
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 3: potentially his role on the homicide, but also trying to

503
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 3: establish you know, how accepting he is of Margaret, you know,

504
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 3: going and seeing Gilbert. But then there's you know, other

505
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 3: potential motive, which is your random As I mentioned, before

506
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 3: somebody just happened to stumble across them. You can't rule

507
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 3: anything out at this stage, and the investigation with the

508
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 3: information that we have.

509
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 2: Well, let me tell you the details of what ends

510
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 2: up happening. This is a very new affair. I don't

511
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 2: even know if you if it's an open relationship. I

512
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 2: don't even know if you called an affair, we would say,

513
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 2: I guess we'll say relationship. This is a new relationship.

514
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 2: Margaret and Gilbert had just met ten days earlier at

515
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 2: a Christmas party. The night of New Year's Eve, Margaret

516
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 2: and Gilbert and Jeffrey, her husband, all go to a

517
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 2: party at a photographer's house who works for this research organization.

518
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 2: Gilbert's wife stays home because they had a little kid.

519
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 2: And this guest list is from the upper echelons of

520
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 2: this scientific community. And Margaret's husband is this lab tech

521
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 2: who looks at Margaret and says, this is not my scene.

522
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 2: I want to go to a different party where there

523
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 2: are younger people. He has been seeing someone for five

524
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 2: months openly. Her name's Pamela Logan. He says, Pamela is

525
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 2: at that party. I'm going to go over there, and Margaret,

526
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 2: his wife had been chatting up Gilbert, and he said,

527
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 2: see how things go with Gilbert. I'm going to go

528
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 2: meet up with Pamela and I'll see you later. And

529
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 2: of course, you know grain of salt, but this is

530
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 2: what everybody witnessed at this New Year's Eve party. There

531
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 2: was no acrimony. They kind of kissed goodbye and separated,

532
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 2: and you know, Jeffrey said, I'm going to go to

533
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 2: a less pretentious party and we have later on when

534
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 2: we talk about an alibi, Pamela backs him up and says, yeah,

535
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 2: we met up. Because the police focus on Jeffrey, there's

536
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 2: no actual evidence against him. He says, he meets up

537
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 2: with Pamela, and then he goes back to meet up

538
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 2: with his wife at the first party, and she says,

539
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 2: I want to stay. Gilbert's here, and he says, okay,

540
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 2: I'm going to go pick up Pamela from the second party.

541
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 2: The two of them go and pick up Jeffrey and

542
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 2: Margaret's kids from Margaret's house parents' house, and then Pamela

543
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 2: stays in the car, and so you know, Gilbert and Margaret.

544
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 2: Everybody sees them. The victims leave together from this party.

545
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 2: Jeffrey is with somebody. He's either at Margaret's parents' house

546
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 2: picking up kids, or he's with Pamela, the woman he's

547
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 2: sleeping with, or he's you know, at one of two

548
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 2: parties where there are tons of people who witness. This

549
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 2: doesn't mean anything happen. It just means like the police

550
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 2: are steimied at this point because the gel's husband angle

551
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 2: isn't really working for them. I know that was a lot, Sorry, Paul.

552
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 2: They're busy couples.

553
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, for sure, you know. And and of course

554
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 3: it's this is you know, Jeffrey's alibi, you know, And it's,

555
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 3: as we've discussed in prior cases, it's really trying to

556
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 3: assess the veracity of his alibi. Now, on the surface,

557
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 3: it sounds pretty good at this point in time that yeah,

558
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 3: he's his whereabouts are accounted for, and there doesn't appear

559
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 3: to be any emotional issues that would cause concern that

560
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 3: Jeffrey was having problems with Margaret and Gilbert being together.

561
00:32:56,000 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 3: But we're talking about a stretch of time before the victims'

562
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 3: bodies are found. So what happened from the time that

563
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 3: nobody can account for Jeffrey, Jeffrey's whereabouts and the time

564
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 3: that the victims' bodies are found. You know, Pamela has

565
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 3: a strong connection to Jeffrey, and is she somebody that

566
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 3: would be willing to lie, you know, in order to

567
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 3: protect him. Margaret's parents being family, you know, potentially would

568
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 3: also protect Jeffrey. But the issue there is it's their

569
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 3: daughter that has ended up dead, you know, so if

570
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 3: they're suspicious of Jeffrey, I think that they would be

571
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 3: more willing to say, hey, you know, there were some

572
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 3: other issues going on. But also we don't know after

573
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 3: both couples leave these groups that they're with, was there

574
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:54,479
Speaker 3: any interaction between anybody, you know, Jeffrey, Margaret and Gilbert.

575
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 3: We're all a saiden. Things went sideways very quickly, but

576
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 3: we don't have any witnesses to that. You know, that's

577
00:33:58,920 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 3: always a possibility.

578
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 2: And Jeffrey and Pamela say they went back to I

579
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 2: think it was Pamela's house and that was that. And

580
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 2: what's interesting is well, I mean, luckily for Jeffrey, people

581
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,439
Speaker 2: saw him all over town off and on all night.

582
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 2: He apparently drove a really unusual type of car that

583
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 2: people It was a vintage Vauxhall which I looked up

584
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 2: and is pretty cool. And everybody remembered it. So he's

585
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 2: driving around all over town with this hot woman, Pamela,

586
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 2: and so people remember it. I'm not saying anything didn't happen.

587
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 2: I'm just saying that this is, you know, he seems

588
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 2: more solid than many of the husbands we talk about.

589
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 3: Yes, of course, early on in the investigation, Jeffrey is

590
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 3: going to be a prime person that has to be

591
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,399
Speaker 3: looked at strongly by investigators. But as the information about

592
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,799
Speaker 3: Jeffreys Squareabouts comes into play and how accepting of you know,

593
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 3: this kind of open marriage environment or culture that they

594
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 3: are in, Jeffrey gets reduced as being a suspect. He's

595
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 3: not eliminated as a suspect in my mind, but most

596
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 3: certainly now other potential investigative avenues need to probably be

597
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 3: more strongly pursued than Jeffrey.

598
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. And one thing that I think was a red

599
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 2: flag for the media, not for the police, but for

600
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,799
Speaker 2: the media was that when he has taken to see

601
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 2: his wife at the Morgue, he doesn't show very much

602
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 2: emotion when he sees her body. And I just think,

603
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 2: I mean, that's just silly to judge somebody off of

604
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,399
Speaker 2: their knee jerk reaction of seeing their dead loved one

605
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 2: laying on a slab. I just I can't. I don't

606
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 2: think you can predict that. And he just said, what

607
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 2: am I supposed to do? I'm surrounded by a huge

608
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,359
Speaker 2: crowd of police officers and I'm not going to break

609
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 2: down and cry there. But police did wonder about that

610
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 2: reaction too.

611
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 3: No, but you know, again, everybody reacts differently, and of course,

612
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 3: you know, men, we have a tendency to be more

613
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 3: hiding our emotions, especially if we're around other men, you know,

614
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,439
Speaker 3: So there's nothing about that that I would put any

615
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 3: weight on. You know, it be noticed, but it's like

616
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 3: I can I can kind of understand, you know, internally

617
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 3: he may be getting maybe breaking up, but he's not

618
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 3: showing it externally.

619
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 2: And you know, back to the theory that doctor Bogel

620
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 2: was killed because of his research as a physicist in

621
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 2: state secrets and he's taking off for the US in

622
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 2: a few weeks. His colleague said, this guy didn't know anything.

623
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 2: This was not a state secret kind of person. He

624
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 2: didn't have that kind of knowledge. So the police scratched

625
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 2: that off their list. Now things get interesting because now

626
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 2: we have to figure out how they died. So the

627
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 2: medical examiner looks at their bodies and there is nothing

628
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 2: wrong with them. There's no defensive rooms. I mean except

629
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 2: for the scratch that I mentioned to you about from

630
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 2: Margaret and some abrasions on her knees, which could have

631
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 2: come from you know, in her time with Gilbert before

632
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 2: she died. Yeah, and frankly the scratch could have also.

633
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 2: I mean, we don't know, but there's nothing wrong with

634
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 2: either one of them their bodies. They're doing an autopsy

635
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,800
Speaker 2: and they're looking and they're saying, there just seems like nothing.

636
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 2: So they think poison. And this is why it's an

637
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 2: interesting story. What do you think.

638
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 3: No, I have to rely upon the medical examiners or

639
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 3: the pathologist's findings. You know, if there's no obvious cause

640
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 3: of death, then of course toxicology is going to be

641
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 3: key to try to figure out what caused them to die.

642
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,720
Speaker 3: If it is a poisoning. Let's say Gilbert and Margaret

643
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 3: are together and then they're both starting to succumb to

644
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 3: whatever poison. This is where you could see where one

645
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,439
Speaker 3: or the other ends up walking away, and that's why

646
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 3: the two bodies are distributed. But then the offender, they

647
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 3: didn't cover themselves up. The offender is there, right, you know,

648
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 3: so is the offender just watching waiting for them to

649
00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 3: die if he administered or she administered a poison. I

650
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 3: don't know this. This is sounding a little goofy to me,

651
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 3: but of course I'm sure you're going to reveal at

652
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 3: some point, you know, what the toxicology results are.

653
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 2: Well, it is very frustrating for everybody involved this toxicology

654
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:18,879
Speaker 2: root that they go down. Well, first of all, they say,

655
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 2: well this is poison. Clearly Jeffrey poison them. I think

656
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 2: I don't know poor Jeffrey. I mean, he was pursued

657
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:32,359
Speaker 2: vigorously by the police. So the toxicologist had limited resources.

658
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,799
Speaker 2: This is sixty three, nineteen sixty three. There was somebody

659
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 2: who wrote a book who I'll mention later, but this

660
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 2: is a quote from the book, and it says that

661
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 2: the toxicologist, with his limited resources, was you know, looking

662
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 2: to see what kind of poison would have caused this.

663
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,879
Speaker 2: He spent thirteen months. This was a long investigation, day

664
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 2: and night. He went through every possible poison looking for

665
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 2: the killing agent. He spoke to experts around the world,

666
00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:01,319
Speaker 2: the FBI, Britain, and nobody could help and it's a conundrum,

667
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 2: and I can describe what he did find. So if

668
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 2: you think somebody has been poisoned, do you really have

669
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 2: to do that? Do you have to Is there one

670
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:15,320
Speaker 2: test per poison? With hundreds of you know, poisonous plants,

671
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,320
Speaker 2: and of course like man made poisons, do you literally

672
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 2: have to run one hundred and to two hundred tests

673
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,439
Speaker 2: to figure out what happened? There's not one catch all

674
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 2: that'll you know, tell you about three tests or three poisons.

675
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:33,280
Speaker 3: Basically, you know, most poisons are grouped into a certain

676
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 3: class of compounds, and so in modern toxicology we have

677
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:43,399
Speaker 3: screening methods. So if we want to find opiates, as

678
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 3: an example, the screening method will see, you know, the

679
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 3: various types of opiates that somebody could have ingested or

680
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 3: injected in the system, and so you get this positive

681
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 3: for opiates. Now you can key in on using a

682
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 3: specif type of test methodology to identify which opiate is

683
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 3: in that person's system. Now, there are substances that kind

684
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:13,800
Speaker 3: of stand alone, and yes, you need to specifically perform

685
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 3: tests for those particular substances or you won't detect them,

686
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,360
Speaker 3: you know. And the problem, of course is is that

687
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 3: you have a limited sample to begin with, and in

688
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 3: nineteen sixty three, the testing methods aren't going to be

689
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 3: very sensitive. So every time the toxicologists is performing a test,

690
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,280
Speaker 3: whether it be off of the blood or the urine

691
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 3: or tissue, vitreous humor whatever substance out of the body

692
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 3: was collected, they're consuming some of that sample, you know,

693
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 3: So you can only do so many tests. You can

694
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,239
Speaker 3: at a certain point completely consume the sample and not

695
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 3: identify what toxin, what poison is in these victims' bodies.

696
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 3: So this is where, you know, I'm kind of curious

697
00:40:56,120 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 3: to see, you know, what this toxicologist did find and

698
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:02,760
Speaker 3: is that going to be revealing as to what substance

699
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 3: maybe may have been used.

700
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 2: Well, when the police here this could be poisoned, they

701
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 2: are immediately dispatched back to the crime scene. They go

702
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 2: to the river bank they want to see or is

703
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 2: there a vial, is there a bottle, or there're syringes.

704
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 2: We're in Australia. Where are the venomous spiders? I'm assuming

705
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 2: there are probably snakes everywhere. They test all the plates,

706
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 2: the food, scraps, cutlery, empty bottles from the party where

707
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:31,959
Speaker 2: they were, Where Gilbert and Margaret were. They get help

708
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 2: from scientists around the world for ideas on what kind

709
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 2: of poisonous compound they could test for, and they start

710
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 2: testing for hundreds of compounds, and here's what they find.

711
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 2: To help guide them a little bit, the toxicologist says,

712
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:50,319
Speaker 2: here's the weird thing. The blood appears to be a

713
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 2: purple color in both of them. The key to him

714
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 2: that he thinks that this purple color blood means poison,

715
00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 2: and both of them have it. Both have purple blood.

716
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,919
Speaker 2: He said that any number of poisons could have caused this.

717
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:08,240
Speaker 2: A newspaper report says that examiners found a knotted area

718
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:13,280
Speaker 2: near the heart on both Gilbert and Margaret that looks

719
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 2: to them like strychnine poisoning. Gilbert's got more of it,

720
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 2: you know, in his system, but Margaret it's easy to

721
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 2: miss this little knotted area negative for STRYC nine. So

722
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 2: that is like the physical manifestation of if this is

723
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,320
Speaker 2: poison what they're saying it actually looks like in their body.

724
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:32,439
Speaker 2: What do you think about that.

725
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 3: Well, it's a physical observation, you know, and I'm not

726
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 3: familiar with what would turn blood purple, but it's definitely

727
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:48,359
Speaker 3: something you know today that could be researched and see what,

728
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 3: you know, what various chemicals would cause that type of

729
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 3: color chase. We know, for example, carbon monoxide you know,

730
00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 3: that turns the blood very bright red. You know, so

731
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 3: there's that, you know, this is not an unheard of phenomenon,

732
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 3: this purple color change. You know, that's where I would

733
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 3: be googling the hell out of that and generating a

734
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,839
Speaker 3: list of possible substances that would would cause that that

735
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 3: have this type of potent effect. Assuming you know, they're

736
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 3: they're seen, and they're fine leaving the party that night.

737
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 3: You know, this whatever poison this is is fast acting.

738
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 3: You know, that's right right. It's not like they were

739
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 3: hospitalized and succumbed to you know, organ failure and all that.

740
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 3: This is something that is probably interrupting a poison that

741
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 3: is interrupting the nervous system, you know, preventing them from

742
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:49,399
Speaker 3: being able to breathe or something along those lines. So

743
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 3: it's it is a very potent chemical that is in

744
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:56,799
Speaker 3: their bodies for you know, basically it's one hundred percent

745
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 3: fatal for both you know, the two victims that were

746
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 3: exposed to it. If this is truly a poisoning.

747
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 2: Well, the toxicologist makes an interesting observation. He agrees with you.

748
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 2: This had to have been fast acting. He said, what

749
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:12,760
Speaker 2: he had been testing for based on like the purple color,

750
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 2: strych nine and that kind of stuff. He said, if

751
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:19,240
Speaker 2: that had been slipped into their drinks at the party,

752
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:21,760
Speaker 2: they would not have felt well enough to have sex.

753
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 2: And they found fresh seamen on Gilbert's jacket, which indicated

754
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 2: to them that they were having sex. So he said,

755
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 2: whatever happened to them happened there on the riverbank. I

756
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 2: don't think this was something that happened at one of

757
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 2: these wild parties, and it sounds like that's something that

758
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:39,439
Speaker 2: you think is probably likely.

759
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 3: Also, the covering of the bodies, I mean indicates the

760
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 3: offender is likely there, you know, at least after they're dead,

761
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 3: and is trying to hide the bodies. Now, the victims

762
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 3: voluntarily go to this location in order to engage in

763
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 3: consensual sex, you know, what is their relationship with who

764
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 3: the offender is? For the offen to be able to

765
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 3: apply a poison to them get them to ingest something,

766
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,359
Speaker 3: is this, you know, a friendly encounter? You know, maybe

767
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 3: it's another person in this open marriage type of thing

768
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,839
Speaker 3: that tastes coming over and saying, hey, you know, it's

769
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:22,840
Speaker 3: now my turn with Margaret or whatever, right, and but

770
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:25,800
Speaker 3: has bad intention and it's like, hey, let's have a

771
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:29,840
Speaker 3: drink before the three of us engage in a consensual encounter.

772
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 3: I don't know, it is odd, but it's something where

773
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:35,840
Speaker 3: the offenders there definitely after the victims are dead, but

774
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,399
Speaker 3: may have been there prior to the victims being dead,

775
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:42,399
Speaker 3: and somehow is administering a poison to both victims at

776
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 3: the scene. So that's the big mystery for me is

777
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 3: how does the offender do that?

778
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting. This is you know, making all kinds

779
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,320
Speaker 2: of headlines around the world, of course, and they're asking

780
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 2: for help from around the world to Australia's benefit here. Okay,

781
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 2: So they find a receipt in More's pocket for a

782
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 2: dog deworming tablet set of tablets she had bought from

783
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 2: a docs and breeder. They have several dogs, and they

784
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 2: asked the breeder would these deworming tablets hurt people if

785
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,919
Speaker 2: it had been like some odd murder suicide packed using

786
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 2: dewarmer pills, And of course the breeders said, I would

787
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:21,400
Speaker 2: have made them upset. I'm not sure this would have

788
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 2: killed them, And of course there was no evidence in

789
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 2: their digestive system, so they are really kind of up

790
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 2: shit creek at this point. The police, and while the

791
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 2: toxicologists are spending thirteen months running tests on hundreds of

792
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 2: different compounds based on this purple blood, the police want

793
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 2: to know, Okay, so they were poisoned, how did that happen?

794
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 2: Somebody covered them up? So they keep trying to figure out, Okay,

795
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 2: you know, maybe this is a different person than the killer,

796
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 2: maybe there's no killer at all. And they start looking

797
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:00,399
Speaker 2: kind of trying to track down near dwells, and they

798
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 2: said that they want to look for someone who at

799
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,320
Speaker 2: least knew that the couple was dead because the bodies

800
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 2: had been covered up. They zero in on a voyeur

801
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:12,720
Speaker 2: named Raymond Challice, who often hangs out on Lover's Lane. Gross.

802
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,959
Speaker 2: Raymond contacted the police himself and said, listen, I saw

803
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 2: these people. They were on the river bank. But he

804
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:23,359
Speaker 2: didn't actually see them have sex, he didn't see them die,

805
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 2: and he listened to this. The police say, well, this

806
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 2: is not the guy who gave them poison, This is

807
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 2: not the guy who killed him. This is not the

808
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 2: guy who covered him up because he only has one

809
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:37,720
Speaker 2: arm and they don't think that he could have covered

810
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 2: them up. I don't know why they, you know, dismissed

811
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 2: this guy, but he only has one arm, and so

812
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 2: they dismissed him. And plus he had come to the

813
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 2: police and said, I saw them, but you know, they

814
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:50,360
Speaker 2: were alive when I saw him, and I was gone, sure,

815
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 2: you know.

816
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 3: And in some ways he's inserting himself into the investigation,

817
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,799
Speaker 3: but he also could just be, you know, a good

818
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:02,239
Speaker 3: witness and is doing the right thing, the one arm thing,

819
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 3: you know. I don't know what to make of that,

820
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 3: you know. Right now, it's hard to assess any physical

821
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 3: attributes the offender has because we don't know how the

822
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 3: victims died, you know, and one armed person can easily,

823
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 3: you know, lay out clothing on top of a dead body,

824
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 3: you know, So I don't know about that, you know,

825
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 3: But this this one armed guy is at least able

826
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:27,320
Speaker 3: to you know, just take in his information at face value.

827
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:31,360
Speaker 3: Place the victims at a location at a certain time

828
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:34,920
Speaker 3: and still be alive. So whatever happened to them happened

829
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 3: after that point in time. If the guy's telling the truth.

830
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 2: Okay, let's move on to developments that I think will

831
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 2: probably be interesting for you. So one thing that I

832
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 2: had neglected to tell you oops accidentally. The police had

833
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 2: wanted to drag the river where they were to see

834
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 2: if anything had been dumped, you know, syringes, anything like that,

835
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 2: but they couldn't because the river was so so black

836
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 2: and murky with pollution that they could not go into

837
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 2: the river. It was not safe. And now comes the

838
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:13,360
Speaker 2: most what I think people consider the most plausible cause

839
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:17,120
Speaker 2: of death, which is they believe and this is now

840
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 2: stretching into two thousand and six and a book that

841
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:24,799
Speaker 2: came out in two thousand and sixteen, the belief is

842
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 2: that it is possible that this couple had been made

843
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 2: sick by organic material decomposing from the pollution of the

844
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 2: Lane Cove River, hydrogen sulfide, that they had all the

845
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 2: earmarks for it, and it was a river that was

846
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:45,359
Speaker 2: making people sick. Anytime anybody spent any time near the river,

847
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 2: it was making people physically ill. And I have a

848
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 2: lot of info, lots of science y off room type info.

849
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 3: You know, Hydrogen sulfide or dihydrogen sulfide. Yes, that is

850
00:49:55,719 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 3: a noxious gas that smells like rotten eggs. Like, if

851
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 3: you want to go and you know, engage in consensual

852
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 3: sexual encounter, this is not the environment you want to

853
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 3: be in. I do not see Gilbert and Margaret if

854
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 3: there's a if there is a high level of dihydrogen

855
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 3: sulfide or hydrogen sulfide in the in the air, it's

856
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:21,319
Speaker 3: not going to be a place where they want to be.

857
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 3: It's going to smell horrific. This is an open environment,

858
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 3: you know. So it is the theory that they are

859
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 3: breathing in this noxious gas or is it something that

860
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 3: the mud itself, you know, has a higher concentration and

861
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 3: because they're down laying on the ground during this consensual encounter,

862
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:47,359
Speaker 3: that they are now getting a high exposure of it.

863
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 3: You know, I have I have questions about this, you

864
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 3: know that First it's like, why Gilbert and Margaret and

865
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:56,320
Speaker 3: not other people who are going to this lover's lane.

866
00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:58,840
Speaker 3: Why did they end up dead and not others? You know,

867
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 3: maybe people are fall and ill due to the pollution. Yeah,

868
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:06,320
Speaker 3: I mean it's definitely something that Yeah, I'm not ruling

869
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,920
Speaker 3: it out, but I just I'm skeptical. It's probably the

870
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 3: way i'd put it at this point, and you go

871
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 3: back to the victim's bodies were covered, and if they

872
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 3: had just died from pollution, who's covering their bodies? And

873
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:21,920
Speaker 3: why are they're covering the bodies? You know, that to

874
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 3: me tends to suggest that there's some mouthfeasance by the

875
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 3: person who's covering their bodies. So that's that's odd. I'm

876
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 3: not liking this toxic gas due to pollution theory and

877
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 3: that this was just an accidental death right now, you know,

878
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:39,920
Speaker 3: unless you know some transient you know, wanders through and

879
00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 3: is like, well, two dead bodies. People know, I'm here

880
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 3: a lot, I just want to get away, and I'm

881
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:46,720
Speaker 3: just going to cover them up, you know, something odd

882
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,879
Speaker 3: like that, which is not unheard of, But right now

883
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:50,920
Speaker 3: I'm skeptical.

884
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:55,320
Speaker 2: Well, not a transient guy. A greyhound trainer.

885
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:57,319
Speaker 3: What like as in Greyhound the dog.

886
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 2: Yep, there's a man named Eddie Teaste. He would illegally

887
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:06,759
Speaker 2: run his dogs, the greyhound dogs that would race and

888
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 2: people would gamble on. He used the golf course to

889
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 2: run these dogs illegally. This is the same golf course

890
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 2: where the teenage boys would show up and get the

891
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:19,280
Speaker 2: golf balls. He was there that night running the dogs

892
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:22,759
Speaker 2: after the golf course had shut down. He is very religious.

893
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 2: He is very straight laced, and his son said, I

894
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 2: believe when my dad came back through he saw the

895
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 2: bodies and he covered him up because he is very religious.

896
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:36,319
Speaker 2: He said, my dad wouldn't admit it, but everybody knows

897
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 2: that's what happened. And he didn't call the police because

898
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:43,960
Speaker 2: he was doing something illegal, so he covered them up

899
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 2: out of propriety. And when he died, there was an

900
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:51,359
Speaker 2: obituary in a greyhound trade magazine that said he was

901
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:53,719
Speaker 2: the one who covered up the bodies. He just felt

902
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 2: like it was right. And I don't know if he

903
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 2: thought that they died of pollution or what. So isn't

904
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 2: that interesting you had said that and then this is

905
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 2: what this son says, that's absolutely what my dad would

906
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:03,919
Speaker 2: have done.

907
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's one thing to say that's what my

908
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 3: dad would have done. But did the dad do it?

909
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 3: Did this man at some point ever come forward and

910
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 3: say yeah, I mean running the greyhounds? You know, back

911
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty three. How much longer did this man live?

912
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 3: And why not just come forward and say yeah, I

913
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 3: did it, Yeah, I was doing that illegal thing with

914
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 3: the greyhounds. Nobody, you know, ten years later, nobody's going

915
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:30,800
Speaker 3: to go after him for that. Why not just say yeah,

916
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 3: I did this, you know, with such a high profile case,

917
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 3: with such a mystery, I'm the one who did it,

918
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:38,400
Speaker 3: and it would help further the investigation as opposed to

919
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:40,239
Speaker 3: the speculation by the sun.

920
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:43,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. I understand what you mean. You know, the son

921
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 2: did not give specifics on why he felt so strongly

922
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:50,439
Speaker 2: that this happened, how he knew that his dad would

923
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:52,800
Speaker 2: have taken that route and he was his dad was

924
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:55,120
Speaker 2: gone that night. I think his son just put the

925
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 2: pieces together. But let me give you more information, because

926
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 2: we do have. I would this accounts later on. There

927
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 2: are people who were there and didn't want to come

928
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:08,319
Speaker 2: forward because they were scared also, and I can tell

929
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:10,360
Speaker 2: you what they said. But let me do the science.

930
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 2: Is it okay to do the science stuff first?

931
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 3: Sure, you're so frustrated.

932
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:18,840
Speaker 2: I can't make it easy all the time on you, Paul. Okay,

933
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:22,400
Speaker 2: So we're back to hydrogen sulfide. So here's the history

934
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:24,640
Speaker 2: of the Lane Cove River, which is not a place

935
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 2: you want to swim, at least in this time period.

936
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:29,439
Speaker 2: So in the forties, people living near the river said,

937
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:31,919
Speaker 2: this is an awful smell coming off of it. There's

938
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 2: discoloration in their bathroom hardware and paint. They said that

939
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:39,800
Speaker 2: they think their children are struggling to breathe. In nineteen

940
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:43,839
Speaker 2: forty seven, there are complaints that large numbers of dead

941
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 2: fish and black sand on the river banks by a

942
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:49,800
Speaker 2: bridge are popping up, and this is where the bodies

943
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 2: are eventually found. So in the wake of these complaints,

944
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:53,960
Speaker 2: that's a long time ago, but in the wake of

945
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:57,280
Speaker 2: the complaints, in nineteen forty eight, the local commission issues

946
00:54:57,280 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 2: a study on the river. The scientist who carries ou

947
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:02,759
Speaker 2: the investigation says he didn't feel well while he was

948
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:05,760
Speaker 2: doing this. He said, when he was investigating, he witnessed

949
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 2: an explosion from the river bank with a lot of

950
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:12,759
Speaker 2: black muck bubbling up, and he said truckloads of dead

951
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:15,840
Speaker 2: fish came up. His study found that the river bottom

952
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:19,440
Speaker 2: had high concentrations of hydrogen sulfate from a nearby flour

953
00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 2: mill that had been dumping waste into the river for

954
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 2: sixty years, and in an area of the river that

955
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 2: was dammed right where Margaret and Gilbert were, the gas

956
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:34,360
Speaker 2: could build up and the river bottom could suddenly release

957
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:38,680
Speaker 2: large amounts of hydrogen sulfight, and it goes on and

958
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:41,400
Speaker 2: on and on. But essentially this is like, it sounds

959
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 2: like the most polluted river they have found incredibly high

960
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:49,920
Speaker 2: levels of hydrogen sulfight. And to address and then I'm

961
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 2: going to let you lose on this, to address what

962
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:55,200
Speaker 2: you had said about the rotten eggs, they acknowledge this.

963
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:57,879
Speaker 2: The scientists acknowledged this, But this is what they say.

964
00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:01,360
Speaker 2: Happens at a low concentration hydrogen Sulfit doesn't have a

965
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 2: smell at a concentration that can make someone sick to

966
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 2: your stomach rotten eggs, exactly what you said. But at

967
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:13,960
Speaker 2: the very highest concentration, it smells sickly sweet, and before

968
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 2: you know it, it can instantly paralyze the olfactory nerve

969
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:21,720
Speaker 2: and disrupt your ability to absorb oxygen. A person poisoned

970
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 2: by large concentrations the same amount that they found coming

971
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:29,840
Speaker 2: from this river would panic, become disoriented, and then die.

972
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:33,000
Speaker 2: By the way, then your blood would be discolored purple

973
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:36,880
Speaker 2: with hydrogen sulfite, is what a more recent toxicologist had said.

974
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:41,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that does make sense to me from you know,

975
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 3: the different concentrations of this chemical and how it changes,

976
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:49,839
Speaker 3: you know, the smell, because that's something when we were

977
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 3: heavily involved in processing drug labs early out of my career,

978
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 3: you know, that was something that we had to be

979
00:56:56,640 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 3: very cognizant of. Is that some of the these chemicals

980
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 3: that our noses would say, hey, be careful. At a

981
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:08,040
Speaker 3: certain point you can no longer smell it, and then

982
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 3: you're really in danger. So I think my skepticism is

983
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 3: reduced for sure with what you had just described. I

984
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:21,720
Speaker 3: am absolutely puzzled why anybody would want to go near

985
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 3: this river, you know, you know, you know, voluntarily, you know,

986
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:32,720
Speaker 3: for a consensual encounter. It sounds like the last place

987
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:34,120
Speaker 3: anybody would want to go.

988
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:37,960
Speaker 2: But what if it's the describe it as like sickly sweet,

989
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:40,040
Speaker 2: like I don't know if that's like rolling around in

990
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:43,520
Speaker 2: a magnolia bush or something. But it's not the rotten

991
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:47,240
Speaker 2: egg smell, they say, it is the sweeter smell. I

992
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:50,600
Speaker 2: don't know. And the investigators bring that up too, So

993
00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:53,280
Speaker 2: you know, as we move forward here, you know, we

994
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:56,800
Speaker 2: know that this could have happened very quickly. In addition,

995
00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 2: if you needed any more convincing, they said that they

996
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:03,240
Speaker 2: were very close to the water level where they were found,

997
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 2: and sulfide hydrogen sulfide is heavier than air, so a

998
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:11,320
Speaker 2: person someone laying down would be exposed to higher concentrations

999
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:15,480
Speaker 2: more than a person standing up. And the air was

1000
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:18,920
Speaker 2: so still that night that the gas could have collected

1001
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:23,000
Speaker 2: and concentrated at a low lying area. And the exact

1002
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:26,440
Speaker 2: spot where they are found is underneath a little outcropping

1003
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:29,040
Speaker 2: where the moungroves are on the other side, and there's

1004
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:31,120
Speaker 2: kind of like a little bowl where they think the

1005
00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 2: gas could have collected. So all of this is kind

1006
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:37,440
Speaker 2: of comes out in this book in twenty sixteen by

1007
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:40,080
Speaker 2: a guy named Peter, But he's the one who kind

1008
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 2: of came up with this theory to begin with, and

1009
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:47,440
Speaker 2: he came out with witnesses who are really interesting. So

1010
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 2: and now it sounds like you are saying that you

1011
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:55,080
Speaker 2: kind of buy this pollution killed these two people potentially.

1012
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:57,479
Speaker 2: You know, there's a toxicologist that they brought over from

1013
00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:00,960
Speaker 2: America in two thousand and who looked at the lab

1014
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 2: reports of pathology reports and said, I think they inhaled something.

1015
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:05,480
Speaker 2: I don't think they ate anything, and I think it's

1016
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:08,840
Speaker 2: hydrogen sulfide. So I don't know that's where we are

1017
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:10,640
Speaker 2: until we hear from these witnesses.

1018
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I, as I mentioned as you provided

1019
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:21,240
Speaker 3: sort of a foundation for the findings. Yeah, my skepticism

1020
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 3: is now okay, I'm starting to buy into this, but

1021
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 3: I want to hear more before I'm willing to sign

1022
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:30,240
Speaker 3: off that this is just an accidental death.

1023
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 2: Now, you can tell me what you think about this.

1024
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:36,160
Speaker 2: So this book comes out Peter Butt, who was also

1025
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:40,840
Speaker 2: a filmmaker. In the book, he quotes a retired psychologist

1026
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:43,960
Speaker 2: who says that in early nineteen sixty five, so this

1027
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:47,200
Speaker 2: is two years after their deaths. Two years later, a

1028
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:50,120
Speaker 2: woman who had been an eyewitness to the deaths told

1029
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:54,520
Speaker 2: him this psychologist what she saw that night, and the

1030
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:59,120
Speaker 2: psychologist in turn told this filmmaker. The woman who wasn't

1031
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:01,680
Speaker 2: a patient, she it was just somebody that this man

1032
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:05,440
Speaker 2: helped one night, has never come forward to authorities. So

1033
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:09,160
Speaker 2: this is not just secondhand. It's third hand information. But

1034
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:11,520
Speaker 2: you can tell me what you think about it. So,

1035
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 2: according to the psychologist, this woman went with another woman

1036
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:19,920
Speaker 2: to the river bank in the wee hours of New

1037
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:23,000
Speaker 2: Year's Day. And the reason she hasn't come forward. Is

1038
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:26,840
Speaker 2: because the woman she went with was her girlfriend as

1039
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:29,520
Speaker 2: in partner, and this was not going to be you know,

1040
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:31,680
Speaker 2: a positive thing if anybody found out about it. And

1041
01:00:31,720 --> 01:00:34,320
Speaker 2: on top of that, you know, same sex relationships were

1042
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:37,160
Speaker 2: illegal in Australia at this point, and she was from

1043
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 2: a very Catholic family. The two women were on the

1044
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:42,800
Speaker 2: riverbank for a little bit, so I mean, now you

1045
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:45,320
Speaker 2: got another couple. It must not have smelled that bad

1046
01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:47,960
Speaker 2: because you've got other people who were there for a while.

1047
01:00:48,520 --> 01:00:51,080
Speaker 2: The woman who talked to the psychologist said, I left

1048
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:53,480
Speaker 2: my purse behind where they were. They were going to

1049
01:00:53,520 --> 01:00:56,760
Speaker 2: walk back. They backtracked and when they got back to

1050
01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 2: the river bank there was a couple having sex, you know,

1051
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:01,800
Speaker 2: Gilbert and Mark having sex on the ground by the

1052
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:05,160
Speaker 2: river bank. The two women freaked and they hid in

1053
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:09,120
Speaker 2: the bushes. Not to be weird, but they just wanted

1054
01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:11,280
Speaker 2: to get the flip in person leave and not get

1055
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:14,720
Speaker 2: caught and arrested or something or get fined. They stayed

1056
01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:18,040
Speaker 2: for a little bit low on the ground and there

1057
01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:21,320
Speaker 2: was a little depression where they had, you know, were

1058
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:23,280
Speaker 2: able to scoot down to kind of stay out of sight.

1059
01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:26,840
Speaker 2: They had been close to the hydrogen sulfide. They were

1060
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:31,440
Speaker 2: feeling very ill, and she said that she and her

1061
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:35,800
Speaker 2: girlfriend heard the woman say, why have you stopped to

1062
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:38,320
Speaker 2: Gilbert the man having sex with her? They don't hear

1063
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:41,720
Speaker 2: the man say anything, and the woman says, keep ongoing.

1064
01:01:42,080 --> 01:01:44,440
Speaker 2: Then they look and they can see her. She grabs

1065
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:47,840
Speaker 2: her throat, she makes a strangling noise, and she staggers away.

1066
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:50,960
Speaker 2: The man lurches away a little bit, and the witnesses

1067
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:53,720
Speaker 2: run to go get the person. Then take off, and

1068
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:57,320
Speaker 2: they can smell something weird, kind of rotten, kind of sweet.

1069
01:01:57,640 --> 01:02:00,480
Speaker 2: So this is what they say happened. They saw the

1070
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:04,880
Speaker 2: actual deaths happen. The victims separated, you know, and the

1071
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:07,560
Speaker 2: women grab the person, took off and never looked back.

1072
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:08,760
Speaker 2: What do you think about that?

1073
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:12,439
Speaker 3: What appears that the details that she's providing add up

1074
01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:15,520
Speaker 3: with the bindings, you know, with the crime scene. You know,

1075
01:02:15,520 --> 01:02:17,040
Speaker 3: I think part of the way that I would want

1076
01:02:17,080 --> 01:02:21,360
Speaker 3: to assess her statements, just to increase confidence, is have

1077
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:25,640
Speaker 3: her take me to this location, you know, versus am

1078
01:02:25,640 --> 01:02:28,080
Speaker 3: I dealing with somebody who's read the accounts and has

1079
01:02:28,280 --> 01:02:31,960
Speaker 3: has constructed something. Okay, take me to the location where

1080
01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:34,600
Speaker 3: did you see them having sex? You know what directions?

1081
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:37,000
Speaker 3: Did you see each one of them? You know, start

1082
01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:40,520
Speaker 3: stumbling off? And if everything is adding up but she

1083
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:42,880
Speaker 3: was able to do that, then yeah, I would put

1084
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:45,600
Speaker 3: one hundred percent credibility into what she's saying. Right now.

1085
01:02:45,720 --> 01:02:49,800
Speaker 3: I'm definitely thinking she she saw things. I just want

1086
01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:53,320
Speaker 3: to kind of, you know, get that extra confidence and go, yep, okay,

1087
01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:55,960
Speaker 3: you know I've a I've got a good witness here.

1088
01:02:56,560 --> 01:02:59,400
Speaker 2: Well, I will say, you know, that is the end

1089
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:02,400
Speaker 2: of this story. This is still kind of an unsolved case,

1090
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:05,920
Speaker 2: but this is the most plausible theory that has popped up.

1091
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:09,080
Speaker 2: It has all come from this guy, Peter Butt's documentary

1092
01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:13,080
Speaker 2: and in his book. Jeffrey shows up in the documentary

1093
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:16,200
Speaker 2: and he said, I think this was an industrial accident

1094
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:19,560
Speaker 2: that killed my wife and Gilbert. And you know, he said,

1095
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:21,920
Speaker 2: we would have continued on. Everything would have been fine

1096
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:25,480
Speaker 2: if they had been smarter. I guess about where they

1097
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:28,720
Speaker 2: picked a lover's lane. But the people had that had

1098
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:31,880
Speaker 2: showed up to this riverbank. It just that everybody felt

1099
01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:35,280
Speaker 2: really sick and nauseous. I just had no idea the

1100
01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:37,760
Speaker 2: fact that they were laying down would have exposed them

1101
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:40,320
Speaker 2: so much more than these two women who were even

1102
01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:43,440
Speaker 2: they said, as soon as they started crouching down, it

1103
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:45,520
Speaker 2: just felt like within a minute they could just it

1104
01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:50,800
Speaker 2: just felt woozy, felt bad. So anyway, an interesting story.

1105
01:03:50,880 --> 01:03:53,920
Speaker 2: I mean, there's no real conclusion to this except to say,

1106
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 2: we have talked about poisoning stories. Remember the two little

1107
01:03:57,040 --> 01:04:01,480
Speaker 2: girls who died, the sisters who died. Poisoning missies are

1108
01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:03,760
Speaker 2: I think in some ways some of the most interesting

1109
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 2: stories that we talk about. We just don't know what happened.

1110
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:09,440
Speaker 2: And all of these circumstances were so odd and what

1111
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:13,160
Speaker 2: a terrible way to die, of all the terrible ways

1112
01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:15,040
Speaker 2: to die. To think about that, like, you know, it

1113
01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:18,880
Speaker 2: is so unexpected, it is happening, and you're exposed.

1114
01:04:19,200 --> 01:04:22,480
Speaker 3: You know, it's one of those fears like you hear

1115
01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:25,400
Speaker 3: about whether it be couples that are on a honeymoon

1116
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:29,440
Speaker 3: or families that go on vacation and you know, carbon

1117
01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:33,960
Speaker 3: monoxide it gets them inside whatever facility they're staying in.

1118
01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:37,280
Speaker 3: You know, they fall asleep and they're done. You know,

1119
01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:40,920
Speaker 3: I think I'm fairly convinced with this theory. Now, would

1120
01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:44,960
Speaker 3: they be able to absolutely prove it, probably not. The

1121
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:48,439
Speaker 3: level of pollution in this river. I mean the water

1122
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:51,880
Speaker 3: is described as black. You know, I have this vision.

1123
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:53,720
Speaker 3: I had to look this up. But you know that

1124
01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:57,160
Speaker 3: movie From Here to Eternity, and there's that famous scene

1125
01:04:57,360 --> 01:05:00,320
Speaker 3: of the couple that are you know, on the each

1126
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:03,280
Speaker 3: in the waves are coming over them as as they're kissing,

1127
01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:07,000
Speaker 3: and it's like Gilbert and Margaret laying down and that

1128
01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:11,000
Speaker 3: close to this crappy black water. It's it's like, you know,

1129
01:05:12,120 --> 01:05:14,040
Speaker 3: I think I would have picked a different location, a

1130
01:05:14,080 --> 01:05:15,520
Speaker 3: little more romantic location.

1131
01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:21,600
Speaker 2: Well, an interesting story, medical mysteries. I bring to you

1132
01:05:21,920 --> 01:05:25,600
Speaker 2: every so often, Paul Holes to challenge you, and this

1133
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:27,560
Speaker 2: is a this is a good one.

1134
01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:30,919
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, I always want to I want the bad guy.

1135
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:36,240
Speaker 3: That's that's the frustrating with these these accidental desks. It's like, oh,

1136
01:05:36,240 --> 01:05:38,640
Speaker 3: there's no bad guy, except if you want to blame

1137
01:05:38,760 --> 01:05:43,280
Speaker 3: the various companies that were polluting the river over decades.

1138
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:45,880
Speaker 2: And we will. But yes, I agree, yeah, you.

1139
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:49,400
Speaker 3: Know maybe maybe you know, people could could have been

1140
01:05:49,480 --> 01:05:54,120
Speaker 3: charged for that type of environmental negligence and who knows. Anyways,

1141
01:05:54,480 --> 01:05:55,360
Speaker 3: fascinating case.

1142
01:05:55,640 --> 01:05:58,680
Speaker 2: Good well, I will bring you yet another one next week.

1143
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 3: Awesome. I'm looking forward to it.

1144
01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:08,000
Speaker 4: Thanks, thank you, This has been an exactly right production

1145
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:08,920
Speaker 4: for our.

1146
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:12,440
Speaker 3: Sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com slash

1147
01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:13,880
Speaker 3: Buried Bones sources.

1148
01:06:14,080 --> 01:06:16,400
Speaker 4: Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

1149
01:06:16,720 --> 01:06:20,960
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1150
01:06:21,200 --> 01:06:23,480
Speaker 2: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1151
01:06:23,800 --> 01:06:26,080
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1152
01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:28,360
Speaker 4: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1153
01:06:28,600 --> 01:06:32,760
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

1154
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:36,400
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1155
01:06:36,640 --> 01:06:37,640
Speaker 2: ary Bones Pod.

1156
01:06:38,120 --> 01:06:40,680
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1157
01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:42,680
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1158
01:06:42,720 --> 01:06:44,479
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now

1159
01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:49,080
Speaker 2: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

1160
01:06:49,080 --> 01:06:51,160
Speaker 2: Cold Cases is also available now